Some interesting stats about Marco

[smaka]

Saw these on Twitter yesterday and I think it hasn't been posted here yet, but Marco is in the top 10 most improved shooters this season in 3 categories: 3 point, mid range and restricted area.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi8E1DgCcAA4NTj.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi7djLgCIAAlf89.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi8ClwbCMAAMDpc.png

Spurs system... :tu:flag:

[benefactor]

:cry but we all want Neal back :cry

[Juggity]

:cry but we all want Neal back :cry

I'd take Neal back for the end of the bench if possible tbh. 1 irrational confidence guy would be nice.

[benefactor]

He wouldn't play as there would be no minutes. Patty and Marco both>>Neal.

[Seventyniner]

70.7% in the restricted area is insane. I know it's almost all off of backdoor cuts but still.

[SpursFan86]

Let's compare Marco's stats this year to Neal's last year:

Belinelli: 11.3 ppg (61.5 TS%), 3 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.2 TO per game, 15.3 PER.

Neal: 9.5 ppg (51.2 TS%), 1.7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.4 TO per game, 11.5 PER.

Granted, Belinelli is getting about 4 more minutes per game than Neal...but still, Belinelli is WAY better than Neal was. Not to mention he's a better defender.

[Prime Time]

Let's compare Marco's stats this year to Neal's last year:

Belinelli: 11.3 ppg (61.5 TS%), 3 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.2 TO per game, 15.3 PER.

Neal: 9.5 ppg (51.2 TS%), 1.7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.4 TO per game, 11.5 PER.

Granted, Belinelli is getting about 4 more minutes per game than Neal...but still, Belinelli is WAY better than Neal was. Not to mention he's a better defender.
Yeah, I definitely prefer Marco's defense over Neal's. Then again.. I'd prefer a punch in the face over a kick in the balls, so that's not necessarily super positive.

[Robz4000]

He wouldn't play as there would be no minutes. Patty and Marco both>>Neal.

He'd be great as emergency insurance tho.

[benefactor]

Marco's taller, that's about it. It's close to a lateral move defensively. He's better in every other area though.

[FkLA]

Who wants Neal over Belli dumbass? One can be a fan of Neal and concede the fact that Belli is better.

[benefactor]

Baam and Raven tbh.

[SpursFan86]

Yeah don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Marco is a huge upgrade defensively. I do think he's slightly better though...and I'd definitely have a hard time seeing an argument for him being even worse than Neal defensively. At worst it's a lateral move in that area.

[FkLA]

two people =/= we all

[Mugen]

Patty is more of the Neal replacement IMO and he's also been better than Gary this season.

Patty: 10ppg, 1.8ast, 2.0rpg, 18.6 PER

Beli is essentially Jack's replacement and he's been a massive upgrade over 2013 Jack who couldn't hit a shot, defend, and was a locker room cancer tbh.

[benefactor]

He'd be great as emergency insurance tho.
Indeed...but he's too good to be someones insurance policy. On a middle of the pack/pretty good team he could easily get 20-25 minutes.

[benefactor]

Patty is more of the Neal replacement IMO and he's also been better than Gary this season.

Patty: 10ppg, 1.8ast, 2.0rpg, 18.6 PER

Beli is essentially Jack's replacement and he's been a massive upgrade over 2013 Jack who couldn't hit a shot, defend, and was a locker room cancer tbh.
Good take. I've actually thought the same thing too.

[Baam]

Neal played PG, he's better defensively than Beli-no-D who couldn't dream of guarding backup PGs... He's also a much better passer than Mills the chucker... I'd take Neal SJax in the POs on both ends over Mills-Beli...

Mills = midget SG who is even less of a point than Neal, when did Neal take 26 shots... Lol at his nuthugger calling that "running the offense"...
Beli = has luxury of playing his natural position unlike Neal who was also hurt most of his last year... Even then we saw them go head to head and Neal looked as good if not clearly better... Beli passes the ball a bit better while Neal can play point and is better at hitting tough contested shots... Also 1 for 19 in Italy most important game this summer, that's what I call an interesting stat...

[Arcadian]

I'd take Neal back for the end of the bench if possible tbh. 1 irrational confidence guy would be nice.

Nah...I'll take rational confidence over irrational confidence any day. Irrational sounds like it would lead to a crucial playoff loss.

[Old School 44]

I think Marco replaced Neal and has a much better all around game.
No one replaced Jack. 2013 Jack didn't do much. If anyone replaced him, it's a more polished, more experienced Leonard.
Patty is just an extra bonus this year, someone who worked hard during the off season and took advantage of an opportunity when given the chance. He's a flat out scorer and pesky defender. But because he can handle the ball along with score, he can be counted on to do a little more than just eat minutes behind Tony and Manu if needed.

[Juggity]

Nah...I'll take rational confidence over irrational confidence any day. Irrational sounds like it would lead to a crucial playoff loss.

He hit a few of my all time favorite buzzer beaters, and helped push the Heat to 7 games in the finals. And man, that shot against Memphis was ridiculous. Obviously Belinelli is a better player, but I'd love to have Gary Neal for the "when all else fails" situations that happen every so often. When nothing was falling, and the spurs could barely score 10 points in a quarter, Neal could fire up the offense quick. I saw it happen many times. And there's basically nobody in the league who I'd rather take a 3 at the buzzer than Neal. He would be a good weapon to have.

[Hoops Czar]

Let's compare Marco's stats this year to Neal's last year:

Belinelli: 11.3 ppg (61.5 TS%), 3 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.2 TO per game, 15.3 PER.

Neal: 9.5 ppg (51.2 TS%), 1.7 rpg, 1.6 apg, 1.4 TO per game, 11.5 PER.

Granted, Belinelli is getting about 4 more minutes per game than Neal...but still, Belinelli is WAY better than Neal was. Not to mention he's a better defender.

What, that's it? I would have expected much more of a separation considering the fact Neal was friggin INJURED. Now, show me some defensive stats that prove Beli is and always has been a better defender.

[Arcadian]

He hit a few of my all time favorite buzzer beaters, and helped push the Heat to 7 games in the finals. And man, that shot against Memphis was ridiculous. Obviously Belinelli is a better player, but I'd love to have Gary Neal for the "when all else fails" situations that happen every so often. When nothing was falling, and the spurs could barely score 10 points in a quarter, Neal could fire up the offense quick. I saw it happen many times. And there's basically nobody in the league who I'd rather take a 3 at the buzzer than Neal. He would be a good weapon to have.

Yeah I understand your idea, but I think it's a bit of an illusion. If somebody hurts the team more than helps, but has various moments of dominance, the moments will stand out - but on balance, he still hurts more than he helps.

I'd take him in place of Ayres, Bonner, or Joseph. But we don't need him because we already have a solid 10-man rotation.

[FkLA]

He hit a few of my all time favorite buzzer beaters, and helped push the Heat to 7 games in the finals. And man, that shot against Memphis was ridiculous. Obviously Belinelli is a better player, but I'd love to have Gary Neal for the "when all else fails" situations that happen every so often. When nothing was falling, and the spurs could barely score 10 points in a quarter, Neal could fire up the offense quick. I saw it happen many times. And there's basically nobody in the league who I'd rather take a 3 at the buzzer than Neal. He would be a good weapon to have.

:tu

Players with testicles the size of Neals don't grow on trees. Hard not to like those kind of players.

[benefactor]

Neal played PG, he's better defensively than Beli-no-D who couldn't dream of guarding backup PGs... He's also a much better passer than Mills the chucker... I'd take Neal SJax in the POs on both ends over Mills-Beli...

Mills = midget SG who is even less of a point than Neal, when did Neal take 26 shots... Lol at his nuthugger calling that "running the offense"...
Beli = has luxury of playing his natural position unlike Neal who was also hurt most of his last year... Even then we saw them go head to head and Neal looked as good if not clearly better... Beli passes the ball a bit better while Neal can play point and is better at hitting tough contested shots... Also 1 for 19 in Italy most important game this summer, that's what I call an interesting stat...
This take...wow.:lol

[manustarting2gd]

Marco did the same in Chi that Neal did for us

[SpurPadre]

Marco's taller, that's about it. It's close to a lateral move defensively. He's better in every other area though.

Disagree slightly in regards to defense. Marco at least acknowledges that defense is an important element to win a game and therefore hustles as best he can, despite being very limited in that area. That hustle has equated to some success at times (not enough but still) and he doesn't fall asleep on his man. He'll never be a defensive wizard but for what it's worth, he had a couple good contests against Wade last time when we beat the Heat.

[SpurPadre]

:tu

Players with testicles the size of Neals don't grow on trees. Hard not to like those kind of players.

Obviously, you haven't seen the size of Beli's testicles. Here, allow him to show you:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwQWIEiY7BY

[SpurPadre]

Patty is more of the Neal replacement IMO and he's also been better than Gary this season.

Patty: 10ppg, 1.8ast, 2.0rpg, 18.6 PER

Beli is essentially Jack's replacement and he's been a massive upgrade over 2013 Jack who couldn't hit a shot, defend, and was a locker room cancer tbh.

Good take.

[ElNono]

Another stat from the Express-News today:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2w4h4bb.jpg

Loving Beli, and as I've been saying all season long, Gino is the kind of guy that will resurrect a player's career like that. He slumped a bit while Manu was out, but he has quickly re-gained his form.

Beli, Mills and Diaw 2.0 have been phenomenal all season long, IMO.

[DPG21920]

He didn't even really slump tbh - those are still very solid shooting numbers. He's just amazing off the ball and Gino is a great passer. It's amazing how Beli shoots so well from the toughest spots on the floor though compared to the corner 3.

[ElNono]

It's also worth noting that unlike Neal, Marco has been playing backup SF when he's out there with Mills and Manu.

[ElNono]

He didn't even really slump tbh - those are still very solid shooting numbers. He's just amazing off the ball and Gino is a great passer. It's amazing how Beli shoots so well from the toughest spots on the floor though compared to the corner 3.

He also knows how to finish around the basket too. That fake and layup against Birdman recently was extremely good.

[DPG21920]

Also, how is 42% FG "yellow" from the corner 3? Is that compared to league average or his own average for the season?

[ElNono]

Also, how is 42% FG "yellow" from the corner 3? Is that compared to league average or his own average for the season?

Could be weighed due to the corners being the shorter-easier shot. Not sure.

The graph comes from this story:
http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2014/03/18/the-throwback-impact-of-manu-ginobili/

[poeticism707]

:cry but we all want Neal back :cry

:rollin:rollin:rollin

[SpursFan86]

What, that's it? I would have expected much more of a separation considering the fact Neal was friggin INJURED. Now, show me some defensive stats that prove Beli is and always has been a better defender.

Lol, nice try, but Belinelli's current season is noticeably better than ANY season Neal has had in the NBA. So unless you're insinuating Neal has been injured for the entirety of his career, then no, injury is not the reason for any separation between the two.

And here are Synergy stats from this year:

Belinelli - gives up .86 points per possession overall, which is 169th in the league

Neal - gives up .9 points per possession overall, which is 247th in the league

I've given evidence for my case. Where is yours? Or do you just enjoy trolling and disagreeing with the popular opinion?

[Raven]

Lol, nice try, but Belinelli's current season is noticeably better than ANY season Neal has had in the NBA. So unless you're insinuating Neal has been injured for the entirety of his career, then no, injury is not the reason for any separation between the two.

And here are Synergy stats from this year:

Belinelli - gives up .86 points per possession overall, which is 169th in the league

Neal - gives up .9 points per possession overall, which is 247th in the league

I've given evidence for my case. Where is yours? Or do you just enjoy trolling and disagreeing with the popular opinion?

that's evidence only when the team is the same in the same year, otherwise it's just an empty stat. Evidence is saying that Belinelli is our worst defender for those who qualify (15mpg), comparing Neal's impact with milwakee and belinelli with the spurs is just some pointless fake jizzing with no meaning.

[Hoops Czar]

Lol, nice try, but Belinelli's current season is noticeably better than ANY season Neal has had in the NBA. So unless you're insinuating Neal has been injured for the entirety of his career, then no, injury is not the reason for any separation between the two.

And here are Synergy stats from this year:

Belinelli - gives up .86 points per possession overall, which is 169th in the league

Neal - gives up .9 points per possession overall, which is 247th in the league

I've given evidence for my case. Where is yours? Or do you just enjoy trolling and disagreeing with the popular opinion?

Belinelli is having a career year thanks in large part to the players that surround him. He's not even the same players when Ginobili's not on the floor. Belinelli isn't being asked to play backup PG. If you put a player in a position to fail, more often than not, he's going to. But while this hiccup sheds negative light onto Neal's resume, it's the FO and Pop's fault for trying to turn Neal into something he wasn't.

As far as career standings,

Gary Neal WS/48 (League Avg. .100)

2011 - .99
2012 - .101
2013 - .60 (injured- Plantar Faciitis)
2014 - .31 (injured- Plantar Faciitis)

Marco Belinelli

2008 - N/A
2009 - .28
2010 - .49
2011 - .84
2012 - .71
2013 - .76
2014 - .141

Until this year, Belinelli has been a below average player in the league. A five year sample size is too great to ignore. In fact, Ginobili better stick around another year just to make Belinelli look somewhat useful out there.

[SpursFan86]

Do you even know how win shares are calculated? It favors guys who are on (surprise) teams who win a lot.

By your logic, Belinelli could've just been in a position to fail when he played for the Hornets and Bulls. The Bulls were horrible offensively last year...none of their players excelled. But place Belinelli in a more ideal situation, and look at what he's doing.

BTW, Neal has played with Ginobili too, and he didn't perform this way. The facts remain: Belinelli is playing better this season than Neal has ever played in his career. If you want to argue that's because of Neal being injured or not playing at his most ideal position, then go for it. Doesn't change the fact Belinelli is doing more for this team than Neal ever has.

[Sean Cagney]

Belinelli is having a career year thanks in large part to the players that surround him. He's not even the same players when Ginobili's not on the floor. Belinelli isn't being asked to play backup PG. If you put a player in a position to fail, more often than not, he's going to. But while this hiccup sheds negative light onto Neal's resume, it's the FO and Pop's fault for trying to turn Neal into something he wasn't.

As far as career standings,

Gary Neal WS/48 (League Avg. .100)

2011 - .99
2012 - .101
2013 - .60 (injured- Plantar Faciitis)
2014 - .31 (injured- Plantar Faciitis)

Marco Belinelli

2008 - N/A
2009 - .28
2010 - .49
2011 - .84
2012 - .71
2013 - .76
2014 - .141

Until this year, Belinelli has been a below average player in the league. A five year sample size is too great to ignore. In fact, Ginobili better stick around another year just to make Belinelli look somewhat useful out there.
Do you ever have anything at all positive to say about this team or it's players? I have not seen one post sides just negativity from you.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Marco's a little bit more better shooter than Neal this season. But what makes him much better in offense has been the way he has used cuts, screens, and played the pick & roll so effectively. He is much much more multi-dimensional than Neal.

Neal's defense was pathetic - unable to guard PGs as he was too slow and being short against SGs. Belinelli is a sieve himself, but he plays team defense a lick better and can also be a backup SF, which Neal surely wasn't.

I think both the players got their ideal landing spots. Neal got to be a shooting specialist for a mediocre but defense oriented team, while Belinelli's high IQ deserved a contender to find his niche.

[Hoops Czar]

Do you ever have anything at all positive to say about this team or it's players? I have not seen one post sides just negativity from you.

Sure, I can lie. But I can't make up stats. Maybe you find it OK to slam former Spurs players or current one's as in Ginobili's case when a player has a bad year or is playing injured. I don't know about you, but I'm standing on my own two feet. Bashing Neal to make Belinelli look good is a form of negativity that 90% of this forum shares as a whole. So let's not take the negativity route just because I'm sticking up for a former and you're sticking up for the current. NOBODY was complaining about Neal his first two years in the league when he was making all his shots and was at least serviceable as a backup PG. Sorry if those numbers are hurting your eyes but the two players, when healthy are basically one in the same. I'll give Belinelli a slight edge in passing and a healthy Neal a slight edge on defense ( insert your shoeless Mike Miller joke here). I can't wait until you get a load of Mills trying to guard Jackson and Belinelli on Butler in the playoffs. That will be quite the sight.

[Hoops Czar]

I'll even take it one step further Sean. Not Parker, Not Duncan but Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship. Without his guidance, leadership and ability to lead the offense, the second unit isn't nearly as effective or cohesive.

[HI-FI]

:lol

[Hoops Czar]

:lol:lmao

[Sean Cagney]

Sure, I can lie. But I can't make up stats. Maybe you find it OK to slam former Spurs players or current one's as in Ginobili's case when a player has a bad year or is playing injured. I don't know about you, but I'm standing on my own two feet. Bashing Neal to make Belinelli look good is a form of negativity that 90% of this forum shares as a whole. So let's not take the negativity route just because I'm sticking up for a former and you're sticking up for the current. NOBODY was complaining about Neal his first two years in the league when he was making all his shots and was at least serviceable as a backup PG. Sorry if those numbers are hurting your eyes but the two players, when healthy are basically one in the same. I'll give Belinelli a slight edge in passing and a healthy Neal a slight edge on defense ( insert your shoeless Mike Miller joke here). I can't wait until you get a load of Mills trying to guard Jackson and Belinelli on Butler in the playoffs. That will be quite the sight.

I was never a huge Neal fan, he was a volume shooter and would shoot some very ill advised outside shots out of the flow of the game or just have some flat out horrible games! I can't remember him having a whole year as solid as Bellis yet this year! He was okay I guess and hit some big shots but overall I was not fan of his game! Belli is a better playmaker and passer as well, you even can admit that much. They are not one in the same! They are different players overall and like I said one can make plays and actually dribble while the other was a volume shooter and his game was very very limited! Neal a slight edge on Defense? Neal DEFENSE in the same line? No I am sorry just NO! He was a horrible defender at any end of the spectrum and even Belli is better at D than he was.

Butler? I doubt Neal could even guard him but he shoots threes out there mostly from what I saw this year. Butler is a decent role player but Neal was not going to guard him or Jackson anyways was he? If so he could not guard them at all so what is the difference between him and Belli? You act like he provided any D at all. I will not throw Mike Miller Joke in there but I will throw the joke in there where he allowed that BANK three at the end of the third to put them up one when the Spurs were up 2 and had some momentum in the game, he lets him walk right up and bank that three to put them up and swing the game (Typical Neal). I also will say he played like SHIT in the game 6 and 7 IN MIAMI along with that bad D, period.
I'll even take it one step further Sean. Not Parker, Not Duncan but Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship. Without his guidance, leadership and ability to lead the offense, the second unit isn't nearly as effective or cohesive.ALL THREE BEING healthy and some luck and role players stepping up is the key to a 5th title, period.

[Hoops Czar]

I was never a huge Neal fan, he was a volume shooter and would shoot some very ill advised outside shots out of the flow of the game or just have some flat out horrible games! I can't remember him having a whole year as solid as Bellis yet this year! He was okay I guess and hit some big shots but overall I was not fan of his game! Belli is a better playmaker and passer as well, you even can admit that much. They are not one in the same! They are different players overall and like I said one can make plays and actually dribble while the other was a volume shooter and his game was very very limited! Neal a slight edge on Defense? Neal DEFENSE in the same line? No I am sorry just NO! He was a horrible defender at any end of the spectrum and even Belli is better at D than he was.

Butler? I doubt Neal could even guard him but he shoots threes out there mostly from what I saw this year. Butler is a decent role player but Neal was not going to guard him or Jackson anyways was he? If so he could not guard them at all so what is the difference between him and Belli? You act like he provided any D at all. I will not throw Mike Miller Joke in there but I will throw the joke in there where he allowed that BANK three at the end of the third to put them up one when the Spurs were up 2 and had some momentum in the game, he lets him walk right up and bank that three to put them up and swing the game (Typical Neal). I also will say he played like SHIT in the game 6 and 7 IN MIAMI along with that bad D, period.ALL THREE BEING healthy and some luck and role players stepping up is the key to a 5th title, period.

I never said Neal's defense was good. Don't put words in my mouth. Every categorical statistic will show that Neal has a slight edge on Belenelli defensively over the course of his career. Just the idea that you can use words like defense and Belinelli in the same sentence is enough to make a person laugh. Neal is less of a high volume shooter than Mills is and I don't recall hearing too many complaints when that so-called high volume shooter had a FG% of 42% from three and roughly 44% from two point range. Not too shabby for a high volume chucker. As far as Belenelli is concerned, I've seen him take quite a few ill-advised shots but apparently when they go in, nobody cares. Welcome to Neal's first two seasons. Just curious, have you seen Belenelli's numbers with Ginobili off the court? It's worth taking a look. Also, Belenelli is a better cutter than he is a playmaker.

Ginobili has always been the key to the Spurs success. It pretty much goes without saying Duncan and Parker are just as important. They, however don't have to lead the second unit. Without him, you don't have great ball movement, you have a bunch of jump shooters shooting three's trying to take the game over. Many of those shots errant, lead to fast breaks going in the other direction. Maybe you're just not paying close enough attention. Ginobili is the glue that holds that second unit together.

[SpurPadre]

Sure, I can lie. But I can't make up stats. Maybe you find it OK to slam former Spurs players or current one's as in Ginobili's case when a player has a bad year or is playing injured. I don't know about you, but I'm standing on my own two feet. Bashing Neal to make Belinelli look good is a form of negativity that 90% of this forum shares as a whole. So let's not take the negativity route just because I'm sticking up for a former and you're sticking up for the current. NOBODY was complaining about Neal his first two years in the league when he was making all his shots and was at least serviceable as a backup PG. Sorry if those numbers are hurting your eyes but the two players, when healthy are basically one in the same. I'll give Belinelli a slight edge in passing and a healthy Neal a slight edge on defense ( insert your shoeless Mike Miller joke here). I can't wait until you get a load of Mills trying to guard Jackson and Belinelli on Butler in the playoffs. That will be quite the sight.

Gary Chucker's defensive rating is 114 this season, which is flat out horrible especially when considering he plays in the leastern conference. Marco's d rating is 106 against much better competition. If you look at win shares, Chucker's best numbers were in his rookie year by far at 3.5. How about Marco? 4.8 win share this season. You can't win this argument.

[SpurPadre]

I never said Neal's defense was good. Don't put words in my mouth. Every categorical statistic will show that Neal has a slight edge on Belenelli defensively over the course of his career. Just the idea that you can use words like defhense and Belinelli in the same sentence is enough to make a person laugh. Neal is less of a high volume shooter than Mills is and I don't recall hearing too many complaints when that so-called high volume shooter had a FG% of 42% from three and roughly 44% from two point range. Not too shabby for a high volume chucker. As far as Belenelli is concerned, I've seen him take quite a few ill-advised shots but apparently when they go in, nobody cares. Welcome to Neal's first two seasons. Just curious, have you seen Belenelli's numbers with Ginobili off the court? It's worth taking a look. Also, Belenelli is a better cutter than he is a playmaker.



Ginobili has always been the key to the Spurs success. It pretty much goes without saying Duncan and Parker are just as important. They, however don't have to lead the second unit. Without him, you don't have great ball movement, you have a bunch of jump shooters shooting three's trying to take the game over. Many of those shots errant, lead to fast breaks going in the other direction. Maybe you're just not paying close enough attention. Ginobili is the glue that holds that second unit together.

Wrong about the d again. Marco has better numbers in steals, blocks, charges drawn. In what bizzaro world are you finding numbers showing neal isn't worse defensively than Marco?)

[SpurPadre]

Oh, I see what you're doing now, you're bringing up ''course of his career'' rationale to prove your point about gary while ignoring the fact that Marco has gotten better each of the last three years on d while gary is at his worst right now.

[Sean Cagney]

I never said Neal's defense was good. Don't put words in my mouth. Every categorical statistic will show that Neal has a slight edge on Belenelli defensively over the course of his career. Just the idea that you can use words like defense and Belinelli in the same sentence is enough to make a person laugh. Neal is less of a high volume shooter than Mills is and I don't recall hearing too many complaints when that so-called high volume shooter had a FG% of 42% from three and roughly 44% from two point range. Not too shabby for a high volume chucker. As far as Belenelli is concerned, I've seen him take quite a few ill-advised shots but apparently when they go in, nobody cares. Welcome to Neal's first two seasons. Just curious, have you seen Belenelli's numbers with Ginobili off the court? It's worth taking a look. Also, Belenelli is a better cutter than he is a playmaker.

Ginobili has always been the key to the Spurs success. It pretty much goes without saying Duncan and Parker are just as important. They, however don't have to lead the second unit. Without him, you don't have great ball movement, you have a bunch of jump shooters shooting three's trying to take the game over. Many of those shots errant, lead to fast breaks going in the other direction. Maybe you're just not paying close enough attention. Ginobili is the glue that holds that second unit together.

LOL Ginobili always the key to the Spurs success? Ironic Tim has a year for the ages last year at 37 and they make the finals again while Manu sucked most of the playoffs, stop it! Tim Duncan is the Spurs franchise and their Key to anything and you know it, period end of story. Manu can help out alot yes and he is a Spurs legend and Tony can as well, but Tim is the the beginning and end of the SPURS franchise, period. Do not say he is the sole reason for their success or the threat hinges on Manu, they made the finals last year with him sucking pretty much and Tim put up HUGE numbers in the finals in game 6 and so on to win it, the team let him down though! Tim is the key to their success and always has been, period end of story.

[SpurPadre]

LOL Ginobili always the key to the Spurs success? Ironic Tim has a year for the ages last year at 37 and they make the finals again while Manu sucked most of the playoffs, stop it! Tim Duncan is the Spurs franchise and their Key to anything and you know it, period end of story. Manu can help out alot yes and he is a Spurs legend and Tony can as well, but Tim is the the beginning and end of the SPURS franchise, period. Do not say he is the sole reason for their success or the threat hinges on Manu, they made the finals last year with him sucking pretty much and Tim put up HUGE numbers in the finals in game 6 and so on to win it, the team let him down though! Tim is the key to their success and always has been, period end of story.

You gotta back me up on my case against neal too on this one.

[sexinthatsx]

okay seriously what the hell is up with these pro Gary Neal trolls?!

[ElNono]

Ginobili has always been the key to the Spurs success. It pretty much goes without saying Duncan and Parker are just as important. They, however don't have to lead the second unit. Without him, you don't have great ball movement, you have a bunch of jump shooters shooting three's trying to take the game over. Many of those shots errant, lead to fast breaks going in the other direction. Maybe you're just not paying close enough attention. Ginobili is the glue that holds that second unit together.

The FO understands the importance of that role (something that I always though went extremely unappreciated here), especially when it affords Parker and Duncan a much lighter load during the regular season while still let's the team win games. Which is why it was a no-brainer when they brought him back for another two seasons. It's difficult to put a price on making players around you substantially better, but that's exactly what Manu does, even at this advanced stage of his career. He makes Mills, Belli and even Diaw be much more productive players. Pretty amazing that at 36 he's the leader of the best bench in the NBA.

With Timmy and Manu getting older, getting the most out of role players is fundamental, which is why Manu is so valuable, as you point out. That doesn't make him better or more important than TP or TD, just make him a key component alongside the other two. That's why they're the big 3.

[Hoops Czar]

Oh, I see what you're doing now, you're bringing up ''course of his career'' rationale to prove your point about gary while ignoring the fact that Marco has gotten better each of the last three years on d while gary is at his worst right now.

Oh, I see what your doing now. You're using Neal's bad season, while he's battling injury and playing for two different teams in 6 months to show how much improved :lmao Belinelli's game is. I think 5 teams in 7 years speaks for itself. Not even the offensively challenged Chicago Bulls wanted him back. You must be looking through a thin lens if you've seen improvement. It's literally microscopic.

[SpurPadre]

Oh, I see what your doing now. You're using Neal's bad season, while he's battling injury and playing for two different teams in 6 months to show how much improved :lmao Belinelli's game is. I think 5 teams in 7 years speaks for itself. Not even the offensively challenged Chicago Bulls wanted him back. You must be looking through a thin lens if you've seen improvement. It's literally microscopic.

And you must be looking into Mike Miller's loose shoe to not see how worse gary neals d is and how he's deteriorated as a player. Fuck this bullshit injury excuse too:lol But even if that point was valid, what good would another injury prone player do us now? Marco's been healthy all season and that's a plus in itself. Now you wanna talk about the bulls not wanting him? How about the fucking bucks not wanting neal? :lmao

[ElNono]

LOL Ginobili always the key to the Spurs success? Ironic Tim has a year for the ages last year at 37 and they make the finals again while Manu sucked most of the playoffs, stop it! Tim Duncan is the Spurs franchise and their Key to anything and you know it, period end of story. Manu can help out alot yes and he is a Spurs legend and Tony can as well, but Tim is the the beginning and end of the SPURS franchise, period. Do not say he is the sole reason for their success or the threat hinges on Manu, they made the finals last year with him sucking pretty much and Tim put up HUGE numbers in the finals in game 6 and so on to win it, the team let him down though! Tim is the key to their success and always has been, period end of story.

Sorry Sean, but you completely misinterpreted what he said. It starts with TP and TD without a doubt, but it's not enough. When TD was younger it was different, but nowadays we need the Greens, the Bellis, the Diaws... everything has to come together. Manu's role is key because he makes all those other guys much more effective. Manu had a fairly horrendous playoffs last season, but he still created for Tiago, Neal, etc. We can survive him not shooting all that great, but we can't survive him not being there and elevating other role player's game, because then the burden becomes too big on TP, TD and we become much more vulnerable as a team.

This isn't new either. When TD used to be paired with Bonner, he had to spend 20x the energy to anchor the defense and battle inside. The pairing with Tiago went a long way towards reducing his workload, and helping Tim a lot. Similarly, when players like Diaw, Belli or Mills are playing great, then TP, Tim and even Manu can come in without the pressure of having to do everything, and it's makes it much easier to win games.

[Hoops Czar]

And you must be looking into Mike Miller's loose shoe to not see how worse gary neals d is and how he's deteriorated as a player. Fuck this bullshit injury excuse too:lol But even if that point was valid, what good would another injury prone player do us now? Marco's been healthy all season and that's a plus in itself. Now you wanna talk about the bulls not wanting him? How about the fucking bucks not wanting neal? :lmao

Mike Miller joke no. 347. screw this post, tbh

[spurraider21]

i think the Neal > Marco people are either trolling or way to stubborn. Marco is shooting the ball as well as Neal ever had for the Spurs, as well as bringing the additional playmaking presence and passing that Marco has above Neal. Neither player is much defensively, I'd say their ability is about the same, but at least Marco has some height.

Although as has been said, I think Mills has been the Neal replacement, as in the pseudo point guard who takes outside jumpers while Manu/Diaw are running the offense. In the meantime Mills has been clutch, has been shooting at an efficient clip, and is a better defensive player than Neal was.

[Sean Cagney]

Sorry Sean, but you completely misinterpreted what he said. It starts with TP and TD without a doubt, but it's not enough. When TD was younger it was different, but nowadays we need the Greens, the Bellis, the Diaws... everything has to come together. Manu's role is key because he makes all those other guys much more effective. Manu had a fairly horrendous playoffs last season, but he still created for Tiago, Neal, etc. We can survive him not shooting all that great, but we can't survive him not being there and elevating other role player's game, because then the burden becomes too big on TP, TD and we become much more vulnerable as a team.

This isn't new either. When TD used to be paired with Bonner, he had to spend 20x the energy to anchor the defense and battle inside. The pairing with Tiago went a long way towards reducing his workload, and helping Tim a lot. Similarly, when players like Diaw, Belli or Mills are playing great, then TP, Tim and even Manu can come in without the pressure of having to do everything, and it's makes it much easier to win games.
I can agree with you but I don't agree with half of what Hoops Czar says, sorry I just don't and he is not misunderstood half the time he is just wrong half the time.
i think the Neal > Marco people are either trolling or way to stubborn. Marco is shooting the ball as well as Neal ever had for the Spurs, as well as bringing the additional playmaking presence and passing that Marco has above Neal. Neither player is much defensively, I'd say their ability is about the same, but at least Marco has some height.

Although as has been said, I think Mills has been the Neal replacement, as in the pseudo point guard who takes outside jumpers while Manu/Diaw are running the offense. In the meantime Mills has been clutch, has been shooting at an efficient clip, and is a better defensive player than Neal was.PERIOD END OF STORY!

[ElNono]

I can agree with you but I don't agree with half of what Hoops Czar says, sorry I just don't and he is not misunderstood half the time he is just wrong half the time.PERIOD END OF STORY!

I don't agree with 3/4 of what he says either, tbh... but I thought that was spot on, IMO.

[therealtruth]

Wrong about the d again. Marco has better numbers in steals, blocks, charges drawn. In what bizzaro world are you finding numbers showing neal isn't worse defensively than Marco?)

But Neal also fails the eye test. You can't measure how dumb it was to leave a shoeless Miller wide open on a critical possesion.

[murpjf88]

I don't agree with 3/4 of what he says either, tbh... but I thought that was spot on, IMO.

You talking about Hoops? He's definitely a little on the eccentric side but not really a bad poster at all. He drops a few stink bombs every now and then but I wouldn't go as far to say he's almost always wrong. Many of his posts have validity to them even if his opinion isn't shared by the masses.

[exstatic]

czar is a troll account, like rascal. I challenge ANYONE to find ONE positive thing he's ever said about the Spurs. ONE. I'm talking actual unqualified praise, not neutral patter.

[Baam]

Neal is the clutchest mofo since Horry while Beli went 1 for 19 when Italy needed him the most, enough said... Also re-watch the last Spurs-Bobcats, Neal clearly outplayed Beli-no-D who had the benefit of being on the much better team...

The worst posters in this thread are the hypocrites trying to make Beli's D look like an upgrade in any way, pretty sad stuff tbh...

[Spursfanfromafar]

Belinelli (2014) vs Neal (2013) - off/on stats -

Belinelli, minutes played: 51%, (per 100 possessions) - Difference between team versus opponent's on/off stats - (-2.0)
Neal, minutes played: 37%, (per 100 possessions) - Difference between team versus opponent's on/off states - (-4.5)

Belinelli is clearly, clearly better than Neal for the Spurs.

[Mel_13]

Neal chose to seek his fortune elsewhere, while Belinelli was willing to commit immediately. As it's turned out, Beli has been an excellent fit, but it's not as if the Spurs chose Beli over Neal. They signed Beli to replace a player that wanted more money and more years than the Spurs were willing to give. Neal would very likely still be a Spur if he had been willing, on July 1st, to sign the deal he eventually got from the Bucks.

[SpursFan86]

Where is this "every categorical statistic will show that Neal has a slight edge on Belenelli defensively over the course of his career" coming from? What statistics show that? DRTG is a horrible measure of a player's defensive ability. All it does is look at a player's defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks, and then also takes into account how good the team's DRTG is. Hence why all the leaders in DRTG always belong to the best defensive teams. If a player doesn't get many steals/blocks/rebounds or plays on a shitty defensive team, he'll have a bad DRTG. Look at Bruce Bowen. Out of everyone on the '03 Spurs roster, he ranked 11 out of 15 in terms of DRTG. In '04, he was 14th out of 17. If you're so fond of using DRTG, I guess you'd agree with Manu > Bowen defensively:lol

So besides DRTG, what stat shows that Neal is a better defender? xRAPM (rate-adjusted plus-minus) shows that Neal has been horrible defensively over the years, while Belinelli has simply been bad. Synergy points to Belinelli being a better defender too, but apparently that's just because Neal is injured this year. Defensive Win Shares (a stat I'm not very fond of, since again, it places a lot of weight on the team defense) points to Belinelli being better defensively the past two years than Neal has ever been in his career.

[rmt]

I'll even take it one step further Sean. Not Parker, Not Duncan but Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship. Without his guidance, leadership and ability to lead the offense, the second unit isn't nearly as effective or cohesive.

Can't agree with this statement because if Pop had just parked Manu's behind on the bench in game 6, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Probably the reason some think that Manu is the key is that Parker and Duncan's play is very consistent - unlike Manu's so when Manu does play well, that play takes the team to a whole 'nother level. And this year, Boris 2.0, Belli and Mills in the second unit are pretty damn good playmakers even without Manu.

Belli is much more versatile than Neal and his bigger size is much more of a need since there's no real SF backup for Kwahi.

[ElNono]

You talking about Hoops? He's definitely a little on the eccentric side but not really a bad poster at all. He drops a few stink bombs every now and then but I wouldn't go as far to say he's almost always wrong. Many of his posts have validity to them even if his opinion isn't shared by the masses.

Didn't call him a bad poster. I just don't agree with a lot of things he says. The Beli/Neal thing just doesn't pass the eye test, IMO. I wouldn't say he's wrong or stupid because of what he thinks on that matter, as it's very subjective, but I just disagree with it.

[Hoops Czar]

Can't agree with this statement because if Pop had just parked Manu's behind on the bench in game 6, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Probably the reason some think that Manu is the key is that Parker and Duncan's play is very consistent - unlike Manu's so when Manu does play well, that play takes the team to a whole 'nother level. And this year, Boris 2.0, Belli and Mills in the second unit are pretty damn good playmakers even without Manu.

Belli is much more versatile than Neal and his bigger size is much more of a need since there's no real SF backup for Kwahi.

Sure, and if Parker goes 7-22 instead of 6-23 or if Leonard knocked down a pair of freethrows or grab a rebound, or if Pop didn't inexplicably bench Duncan in the closing seconds of game 6, or if Green could have hit the broad side of a barn in games 6 or 7, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Blame Neal with the rest of the sanctimonious mooks for leaving Miller open for a three but it didn't really have any bearing on the outcome. The Spurs were in complete control with 28 seconds remaining in the game, However, Leonard leaving Lebron wide open for a game clinching 15 footer at the top of the key in game 7 was arguably the worst defensive sequence I've ever seen in my life. I could actually go on but I've made my point. Ginobili was only one small part of a team collapse and for what it's worth, I would much rather run the floor with Ginobili at 50% than CoJo at all.

[rmt]

Sure, and if Parker goes 7-22 instead of 6-23 or if Leonard knocked down a pair of freethrows or grab a rebound, or if Pop didn't inexplicably bench Duncan in the closing seconds of game 6, or if Green could have hit the broad side of a barn in games 6 or 7, there'd be 5 championship banners hanging in the AT&T center right now. Blame Neal with the rest of the sanctimonious mooks for leaving Miller open for a three but it didn't really have any bearing on the outcome. The Spurs were in complete control with 28 seconds remaining in the game, However, Leonard leaving Lebron wide open for a game clinching 15 footer at the top of the key in game 7 was arguably the worst defensive sequence I've ever seen in my life. I could actually go on but I've made my point. Ginobili was only one small part of a team collapse and for what it's worth, I would much rather run the floor with Ginobili at 50% than CoJo at all.

Parker, at least, had the excuse that he was injured. Don't see the point in blaming Leonard for a missed free throw when Manu also missed a key one too or for not grabbing a rebound (Kwahi had 11 and 16 rebs in games 6 and 7). Leonard played way above expected for a 2nd year player in the Finals. Game 6 - KL - 22/11 on 64.3%FG +11 Manu 9 pts 8 tovs -21 My original disagreement was with your statement, "Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship" and in game 6, Manu was the BIGGEST part of why they lost.

[Hoops Czar]

Parker, at least, had the excuse that he was injured. Don't see the point in blaming Leonard for a missed free throw when Manu also missed a key one too or for not grabbing a rebound (Kwahi had 11 and 16 rebs in games 6 and 7). Leonard played way above expected for a 2nd year player in the Finals. Game 6 - KL - 22/11 on 64.3%FG +11 Manu 9 pts 8 tovs -21 My original disagreement was with your statement, "Ginobili is the key to winning a 5th championship" and in game 6, Manu was the BIGGEST part of why they lost.

You're entire statement is inaccurate because Ginobili was playing on a bad hamstring. Ginobili sucked it up and played through it because it was the biggest game of the year and as banged up as the Spurs were, didn't want to face the Heat in game 7. You also claim that he was the biggest part of why they lost because of his 8 turnovers in 21 minutes yet the Spurs were still in position to close out the Heat with a made free throw or one lousy rebound. There were a lot of things that led to their demise but blaming Ginobili for the team's failure in game 6 without holding others accountable is some weak sauce. Leonard's numbers not withstanding, it doesn't take a wily old veteran to know that you don't leave the best player in the game wide open for a walk up 15 foot championship game clincher.