It's Cultural

[pgardn]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-lefts-half-century-of-denial-over-poverty/2014/03/21/1aeaff4e-b049-11e3-a49e-76adc9210f19_story.html?hpid=z2

Laziness, large families, leading to poverty, is a cultural phenomena.

Poverty in and of itself is no excuse... hmmmm.

[Wild Cobra]

Without reading the article... Yes! Ethics are passed down and molded by family and community, therefore, yes.

Now I will read the article.

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/images/3moynihanscissors.jpg (http://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/ddisruption.htm)

[TeyshaBlue]

Will appears to dismiss the culture of racism. Seems a bit shortsighted.

[boutons_deux]

Will appears to dismiss the culture of racism. Seems a bit shortsighted.

Conservatives deny American racism (against African-Americans, Mestizo-Americans) to hide their exercise of racism (Repug budgetary austerity is nothing but racism, even if Ms of poor whites also get pushed further into financial distress), in preference for their own Euro-American white supremacy.

[TeyshaBlue]

Funny..not this conservative.

[TeyshaBlue]

Also take issue with the familial breakdown being the sole providence of the poverty class.

[TeyshaBlue]

He is correct in that poverty is a symptom rather than a cause tho.

[TeyshaBlue]

Without reading the article... Yes! Ethics are passed down and molded by family and community, therefore, yes.

Now I will read the article.

lol..."It says what I want it to say so I'll read it.":lol

[pgardn]

Without reading the article... Yes! Ethics are passed down and molded by family and community, therefore, yes.

Now I will read the article.

So the ethics of black and Hispanic families/community is one of laziness and failure and therefore it persists generation to generation?

[boutons_deux]

So the ethics of black and Hispanic families/community is one of laziness and failure and therefore it persists generation to generation?

not necessarily laziness, but poor people see themselves, their family, friends, and the equally poor in the contacts that sorta hypnotizes them to lowered expections of what they can, should expect for themselves.

perform badly in school, drop out of high school? even just get through voc school or drop out? manual labor? low wage job? teen/unmarried pregnancy? drink, eat badly, too much? everybody's fat? nobody went to college? see people busted, arrested in jail, ex-cons, everybody on welfare? so many examples, the subliminal messages add up to "this is how it is".

[pgardn]

not necessarily laziness, but poor people see themselves, their family, friends, and the equally poor in the contacts that sorta hypnotizes them to lowered expections of what they can, should expect for themselves.

perform badly in school, drop out of high school? even just get through voc school or drop out? manual labor? low wage job? teen/unmarried pregnancy? drink, eat badly, too much? everybody's fat? nobody went to college? see people busted, arrested in jail, ex-cons, everybody on welfare? so many examples, the subliminal messages add up to "this is how it is".

Uhhh, there are poor white people.

Again.

So culture specifically of black and Hispanic people is one that contributes to lower expectations?

[TeyshaBlue]

I think bou was speaking in generalities....if there are minorities as a subset, they should pretty much exhibit the characteristcs of the set in whole.

[pgardn]

He is correct in that poverty is a symptom rather than a cause tho.

So it's not poverty that leads to low expectations, etc, in all ethnic groups.
It's low expectations etc, that lead to poverty... But low expectations are most commonly found in poor folks who have never benefitted from a position of wealth gained through high expectations with hard work, etc...There is a disconnect in seeing the results. I think Boots would agree given the Walmart rants and min. wage discussions.

Especially now.

And I have an opinion that poor folks who work hard are still less likely to see results than rich folks that are lazy but born wealthy. So the wealthiest rarely experience the poverty felt by the poorest imo. They were born into the right monetary situation, not necessarily Daddy's hard work and innovation rubbing off, because Daddy did the same from his pappy. If poor, these folks could easily be a big burden on a society.

And my data is anecdotal. I do charity tutoring with school districts when not working. And I know grown up rich kids that are lazier than their parents and imo, stupid as well.

[ElNono]

I'm calling BS on that article, tbh... The US divorce rate is #1 in the world, includes a lot of whites, yet the US is one of the richest, if not the richest country in the world. The "let's blame the family structure or lack of" is an old and shitty argument, IMO.

The only thing that family structure helps tremendously is in the passing of wealth, which opens many more doors and possibilities of success than those of non-wealthy families (and there's always exceptions, but that's largely the rule).

[ElNono]

There's lazy people everywhere, BTW...

but there's also a lot of hard working people that just have a incredibly tough time to make ends meet, and certainly fit in the definition of poverty, including among others, service members. To suggest it's a "cultural problem" or "family structure" problem with them, it's just punting the ball, a distraction and frankly insulting.

[pgardn]

There's lazy people everywhere, BTW...

but there's also a lot of hard working people that just have a incredibly tough time to make ends meet, and certainly fit in the definition of poverty, including among others, service members. To suggest it's a "cultural problem" or "family structure" problem with them, it's just punting the ball, a distraction and frankly insulting.

It is George Will.

You would not be the first to think his opinions are BS.

[boutons_deux]

So culture specifically of black and Hispanic people is one that contributes to lower expectations?

culture of the poor any color contributes, probably significanly, to sustaining poverty. Then add in how income inequality that last 35 years has pretty much killed social/financial mobility.

[pgardn]

culture of the poor any color contributes, probably significanly, to sustaining poverty. Then add in how income inequality that last 35 years has pretty much killed social/financial mobility.

So since there is a much larger % black and Hispanic poor people in the US, and it continues to exist, you would explain this how?

You see George Will would say its endemic to their culture. That's how I take his opinion. In fact many conservatives would say the maintenance of the welfare system fosters this.

[boutons_deux]

the destruction of social mobility in USA make poverty endemic to all the poor

fuck Will and all over racist conservatives

[pgardn]

So since there is a much larger % black and Hispanic poor people in the US, and it continues to exist, you would explain this how?

.

So again to the point...

[boutons_deux]

So again to the point...

the are more white poor than black, or brown. Repugs screw their poor, rural whites every time they screw blacks, browns.

[pgardn]

the are more white poor than black, or brown. Repugs screw their poor, rural whites every time they screw blacks, browns.

Percentage

%

i think it's pretty clear there are more white people in the US.

[Wild Cobra]

So the ethics of black and Hispanic families/community is one of laziness and failure and therefore it persists generation to generation?
There appears to be solid evidence of that, but more so for blacks than Hispanics. This is statistical generalities however. it applies to all races, as it is how someone is raised by their parents and community rather than he color of skin. More blacks start at a disadvantage than others because of the community they are raised in.

[Wild Cobra]

So it's not poverty that leads to low expectations, etc, in all ethnic groups.
It's low expectations etc, that lead to poverty... But low expectations are most commonly found in poor folks who have never benefitted from a position of wealth gained through high expectations with hard work, etc...There is a disconnect in seeing the results. I think Boots would agree given the Walmart rants and min. wage discussions.

I think this is one of the largest factors. The expectations that one grows up with.



And I have an opinion that poor folks who work hard are still less likely to see results than rich folks that are lazy but born wealthy. So the wealthiest rarely experience the poverty felt by the poorest imo. They were born into the right monetary situation, not necessarily Daddy's hard work and innovation rubbing off, because Daddy did the same from his pappy. If poor, these folks could easily be a big burden on a society.

Also, who you know. Someone growing up wealthy will have a different set of personal connections to network job search with than someone growing up in the ghetto.



And my data is anecdotal. I do charity tutoring with school districts when not working. And I know grown up rich kids that are lazier than their parents and imo, stupid as well.
They may be lazier, but what are the expectations placed upon them by their parents and peers for the future?

[Wild Cobra]

There's lazy people everywhere, BTW...

but there's also a lot of hard working people that just have a incredibly tough time to make ends meet, and certainly fit in the definition of poverty, including among others, service members. To suggest it's a "cultural problem" or "family structure" problem with them, it's just punting the ball, a distraction and frankly insulting.
I think lazy is probably a poor choice of words, or at least how it is applied. It is too broad... too generalized. We can all be lazy when it comes to some activities, and very energetic when it comes to others.

[The Reckoning]

im really really lazy but i dont have a family. is that fine?

[pgardn]

I think lazy is probably a poor choice of words, or at least how it is applied. It is too broad... too generalized. We can all be lazy when it comes to some activities, and very energetic when it comes to others.

So why did the author center on statistics on Hispanics and Blacks, and then tie this to culture?

Why even touch on ethnicity, as Will says, tiptoe into a touchy subject?

Just center on expectations etc... The implication is its cultural in certain ethnicities. Then one might say the problem is they are poor in the first place, this is the hopelessness of poverty. And a circular argument has been presented as well as a vicious cycle in certain ethnicities.

[boutons_deux]

"So why did the author center on statistics on Hispanics and Blacks, and then tie this to culture?"

criminalizing the non-Euro-American poor, blaming them as the exclusive reason for their poverty, is a fundamental idea in racist conservatism. Why didn't he mention the Poor White Trash of the Repug base that is poor generation after generation and living off SNAP, school lunches, Medicaid? Because THEY are WHITTE.

"Why even touch on ethnicity, as Will says, tiptoe into a touchy subject?"

it's not touchy for conservatives, it's their fundamental racism. Their dog whistles and codings have been strong since St Ronnie's race-baiting of Welfare Queens in Cadillacs and Young Bucks not working.

"this is the hopelessness of poverty"

The failure of the War on Poverty is not a failure, it's a conservative/1%/VRWC/coporate LIE. Since they say the War on Poverty is a hopeless, there's no reason NOT to let these people rot in poverty, in disease, in crime, and early death.

There's no area where the racism of conservatism is more blatant than in their whining, bitching about (the taxpayer cost of) poor blacks and browns, while excluding the equally poor, dependent White Trash in the Repug base.

[Wild Cobra]

So why did the author center on statistics on Hispanics and Blacks, and then tie this to culture?

Because it is the culture they have become, living in the impoverished areas they live in. As generalities go, it is true.



Why even touch on ethnicity, as Will says, tiptoe into a touchy subject?

How do you avoid it? Statistically, such facts are true. There are more minorities of Latino and Black decent living in these cultures than white, Asian, etc.



Just center on expectations etc... The implication is its cultural in certain ethnicities.
It's actually not so broad as culture, as it is subculture. I have seen very few inner city subcultures that have any expectations of respectable values. It isn't limited to blacks and Hispanics, but they are the two largest groups.



Then one might say the problem is they are poor in the first place, this is the hopelessness of poverty.
That is half the equation when it comes to blacks. The other half is the handed down hatred of whites because of the sins of most white people's forefathers.



And a circular argument has been presented as well as a vicious cycle in certain ethnicities.
And I agree in most cases, it is true. It is real difficult to break out of that subculture when your parents say there is not future for you and when the peer pressure of such areas are different than suburban peer pressure. Look at how many blacks are brainwashed they don't get ahead because of whites. They have a self defeating attitude to start with.

[boutons_deux]

It Starts Early: Black Preschoolers Suspended at Much Higher Rate Than Whites


http://www.alternet.org/files/styles/story_image/public/story_images/screen_shot_2014-03-21_at_10.47.20_am_1.png

Across institutions, economic indicators and rates of crime, racial gaps abound. Now, new data from the US Department of Education reveals that unequal treatment can begin as early as preschool.

Of the 8,000 toddlers suspended from preschool in 2011--a surreal figure in and of itself--roughly 45 percent of them were black and 26 percent were white, even though rates of enrollment were nearly the reverse. Latino children were also suspended at a higher rate to whites relative to their enrollment.

This sort of pattern continues later on in school. Across all K-12 schools, black students represented 16 percent of the student population but 42 percent were suspended more than once during the 2011-2012 school year.

The Office for Civil Rights Data Collection report also reveals a number of long standing disparities within the education system, including unequal access to experienced educators and advanced courses in schools that serve students of color. It can be read in full here (https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1094421/crdc-college-and-career-readiness-snapshot.pdf).

http://www.alternet.org/it-starts-early-black-preschoolers-suspended-much-higher-rate-whites?akid=11630.1084699.zppC26&rd=1&src=newsletter973213&t=6

zero tolerance policies in schools and the school-to-prison pipeline strategies are aimed directly at blacks and browns, although white pre-schoolers have gotten kicked out for making gun shape with a hand.

[Wild Cobra]

It Starts Early: Black Preschoolers Suspended at Much Higher Rate Than Whites


http://www.alternet.org/files/styles/story_image/public/story_images/screen_shot_2014-03-21_at_10.47.20_am_1.png

Across institutions, economic indicators and rates of crime, racial gaps abound. Now, new data from the US Department of Education reveals that unequal treatment can begin as early as preschool.

Of the 8,000 toddlers suspended from preschool in 2011--a surreal figure in and of itself--roughly 45 percent of them were black and 26 percent were white, even though rates of enrollment were nearly the reverse. Latino children were also suspended at a higher rate to whites relative to their enrollment.

This sort of pattern continues later on in school. Across all K-12 schools, black students represented 16 percent of the student population but 42 percent were suspended more than once during the 2011-2012 school year.

The Office for Civil Rights Data Collection report also reveals a number of long standing disparities within the education system, including unequal access to experienced educators and advanced courses in schools that serve students of color. It can be read in full here (https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1094421/crdc-college-and-career-readiness-snapshot.pdf).

http://www.alternet.org/it-starts-early-black-preschoolers-suspended-much-higher-rate-whites?akid=11630.1084699.zppC26&rd=1&src=newsletter973213&t=6

zero tolerance policies in schools and the school-to-prison pipeline strategies are aimed directly at blacks and browns, although white pre-schoolers have gotten kicked out for making gun shape with a hand.



Their parents are to blame for the way they are raised in many cases.

[boutons_deux]

Their parents are to blame for the way they are raised in many cases.

and the parents of the parents of the parents, and the examples the kids see from all poor people and kids around them.

and whites NEVER behave badly:

Chris Hayes Spoofs ‘White Power Structure’: ‘Has No Clue’ How To Stop Culture Of ‘White On White Violence’

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/chris-hayes-spoofs-white-power-structure-has-no-clue-how-to-stop-culture-of-white-on-white-violence/

when whites go nuts and destroy stuff on Spring Break, no problem

[pgardn]

Because it is the culture they have become, living in the impoverished areas they live in. As generalities go, it is true.

?? So what about the culture of the poor white folk? No discussion?


How do you avoid it? Statistically, such facts are true. There are more minorities of Latino and Black decent living in these cultures than white, Asian, etc.

So explain this... Why do blacks and Hispanics feel disenfranchised and pass this on?


It's actually not so broad as culture, as it is subculture. I have seen very few inner city subcultures that have any expectations of respectable values. It isn't limited to blacks and Hispanics, but they are the two largest groups.

Why are they the two largest groups? Why are the % poverty in whites high also?


That is half the equation when it comes to blacks. The other half is the handed down hatred of whites because of the sins of most white people's forefathers.

??So move on? The hatred of blacks no longer exists? Or not enough hate to keep hating back and blaming whites?


And I agree in most cases, it is true. It is real difficult to break out of that subculture when your parents say there is not future for you and when the peer pressure of such areas are different than suburban peer pressure. Look at how many blacks are brainwashed they don't get ahead because of whites. They have a self defeating attitude to start with.

??so there is no disadvantage to being born black in the US, it's the defeatest attitude that keeps blacks in poverty?


This is starting to go circular...

[Wild Cobra]

??so there is no disadvantage to being born black in the US, it's the defeatest attitude that keeps blacks in poverty?


This is starting to go circular...
Yes, it is circular. Unless a black individual born into a home/culture of poverty and low expectations can break away from that lifestyle, he/she is probably going to be back in that same circle.

Yes.

Being black is not the problem. It is the general black culture that is the problem.

[pgardn]

Yes, it is circular. Unless a black individual born into a home/culture of poverty and low expectations can break away from that lifestyle, he/she is probably going to be back in that same circle.

Yes.

Being black is not the problem. It is the general black culture that is the problem.

And this is what George Will wanted to say.
Being born black and female in this country gives you the largest disadvantages.
And it's definitely NOT all cultural imo.

I was saying the argument is circular, I was not referring to the poverty feedback loop.

[boutons_deux]

"And it's definitely NOT all cultural imo."

so what else is "it"? genetics?

[pgardn]

"And it's definitely NOT all cultural imo."

so what else is "it"? genetics?




yeah, genetics.

Genetics in white people that makes them wary of people with darker skin.

Jesus... Genetics... Good God...

[Wild Cobra]

yeah, genetics.

Genetics in white people that makes them wary of people with darker skin.

Jesus... Genetics... Good God...
Bullshit.

Statistics of crime and how black people are portrayed in the media is what makes white people afraid of blacks. Then there are the first hand account I, and many other whites, can attest to as to how black people treat whites.

[pgardn]

Bullshit.

Statistics of crime and how black people are portrayed in the media is what makes white people afraid of blacks. Then there are the first hand account I, and many other whites, can attest to as to how black people treat whites.

Its sarcasm dammit. Why can't you pick up on this? I was trying to be a bizarre as possible with that response.

Boots thinks, I think blacks etc... have a laziness gene or something, that's what Boots was getting at. Which in my opinion is a thought held in the back of the head of many conservatives.
The real question is do you think blacks, Hispanics have a genetic predisposition to not caring, stupidity, etc.?
We do know Hispanics have a genetic predisposition towards diabetes...so...?

[boutons_deux]

Two-fifths of the nation’s public school districts offer no preschool programs, and most of those that do offer only part-day programs. Black students account for less than a fifth of those in preschool across the nation but make up almost half of the students who are suspended from preschool multiple times.

Those results from the first comprehensive survey in nearly 15 years of civil rights data from the 97,000 U.S. public schools show they remain marked by inequities. The report released Friday by the Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights, which includes data from the 2011-12 school year, offers no explanation for the stark differences.

http://www.nationalmemo.com/u-s-schools-plagued-inequality-along-racial-lines-study-finds/

[Wild Cobra]

The real question is do you think blacks, Hispanics have a genetic predisposition to not caring, stupidity, etc.?
We do know Hispanics have a genetic predisposition towards diabetes...so...?
I think its acquired traits. Not inherited.

[Wild Cobra]

Two-fifths of the nation’s public school districts offer no preschool programs, and most of those that do offer only part-day programs. Black students account for less than a fifth of those in preschool across the nation but make up almost half of the students who are suspended from preschool multiple times.

Those results from the first comprehensive survey in nearly 15 years of civil rights data from the 97,000 U.S. public schools show they remain marked by inequities. The report released Friday by the Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights, which includes data from the 2011-12 school year, offers no explanation for the stark differences.

http://www.nationalmemo.com/u-s-schools-plagued-inequality-along-racial-lines-study-finds/

Preschool didn't used to exist. What does it say about parenting when preschool is considered to be needed?

[pgardn]

Preschool didn't used to exist. What does it say about parenting when preschool is considered to be needed?

That there are more working mothers?

[boutons_deux]

That there are more working mothers?

... who since entering the workforce in the 1980s, by force or choice, have not been able to stop the VRWC stagnation of household income.

The benefits of pre-school are very well known, esp for poor kids WC and other Repugs like to shit on.

[pgardn]

... who since entering the workforce in the 1980s, by force or choice, have not been able to stop the VRWC stagnation of household income.

The benefits of pre-school are very well known, esp for poor kids WC and other Repugs like to shit on.

These kids lacking a good start will become their/ our problem. Why does this not sink in?

[Wild Cobra]

That there are more working mothers?
Look what happens with all the latch key kids... Most turn out to be losers. Besides, most preschools are only half a regular school day. Why do parents abuse their children by leaving them alone with strangers for most the day?

Maybe i should ask why. I know why. Irresponsibility in most cases.

[Wild Cobra]

That there are more working mothers?
Look what happens with all the latch key kids... Most turn out to be losers. Besides, most preschools are only half a regular school day. Why do parents abuse their children by leaving them alone with strangers for most the day?

Maybe i should ask why. I know why. Irresponsibility in most cases.

[Wild Cobra]

... who since entering the workforce in the 1980s, by force or choice, have not been able to stop the VRWC stagnation of household income.

The benefits of pre-school are very well known, esp for poor kids WC and other Repugs like to shit on.
If parents took an active interest in their children, preschool wouldn't be necessary.

Don't blame the repugs for irresponsible parents.

[pgardn]

If parents took an active interest in their children, preschool wouldn't be necessary.

Don't blame the repugs for irresponsible parents.

Active interest if they can't read? Like the Asian immigrants that never spoke or read English? But were intellects where they came from... And valued education more than anything else?

[Wild Cobra]

Active interest if they can't read? Like the Asian immigrants that never spoke or read English? But were intellects where they came from... And valued education more than anything else?
Asian immigrants that don't know English?

When did such legal immigration start happening, that language requirements were no longer in force?

[pgardn]

Asian immigrants that don't know English?

When did such legal immigration start happening, that language requirements were no longer in force?

Not if one is considered in danger of harm from political persecution and smart.
Anyways...
What about US born parents that never learned in school, but have worked their butts off for their kids to do better?

[Wild Cobra]

Not if one is considered in danger of harm from political persecution and smart.
Anyways...
What about US born parents that never learned in school, but have worked their butts off for their kids to do better?
What can I say. Preschool isn't needed. Kindergarten suffices. 5 year old pick up languages amazingly fast. From there one, they still need parantal attention to engage them in keeping their mind active in one way or another.

I think its pathetic when people expect others to make up for their shortcomings. Wanting subsidized preschool as a cheap daycare? Screw that.

[pgardn]

What can I say. Preschool isn't needed. Kindergarten suffices. 5 year old pick up languages amazingly fast. From there one, they still need parantal attention to engage them in keeping their mind active in one way or another.

I think its pathetic when people expect others to make up for their shortcomings. Wanting subsidized preschool as a cheap daycare? Screw that.

In the long run you and I will be paying for more and more kids that fall behind.
Your 50's model household has changed. Wake up.

[Wild Cobra]

In the long run you and I will be paying for more and more kids that fall behind.
Your 50's model household has changed. Wake up.
How about finding a proper solution rather than using the bandage approach?

Are you OK with treating the symptoms? I don't know about you or others her, but I believe in solving problems at the root level.

[SnakeBoy]

Its sarcasm dammit. Why can't you pick up on this? I was trying to be a bizarre as possible with that response.


Many of the posters here are incapable of recognizing sarcasm without blue font.

[pgardn]

How about finding a proper solution rather than using the bandage approach?

Are you OK with treating the symptoms? I don't know about you or others her, but I believe in solving problems at the root level.

Early Childhood Education is a band-aide approach?

[Wild Cobra]

Early Childhood Education is a band-aide approach?
Preschool doesn't do anything the parents shouldn't be doing. I'm not disagreeing with Kindergarten or first grade.

Maybe these people shouldn't be having children. Ever think of that?