Why 'PG' and 'C' led teams don't win Championships

[Gino-Step]

EDIT TITLE: PG + C together led teams do not win. As a combination traditional PG and a traditional C aren't the best ways to build a team.

My team

PG: Shaun Livingston
SG: Jimmy Butler
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Kawhi Leonard
C: Chris Bosh

My team would beat any team that had any of the following point guards (choose 1) AND any of the following centres (choose 1)
PG: Steve Nash, Chris Paul, John Stockton, Tony Parker, Steph Curry
C: Shaquille O'Neal, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Kareem, Vlade, Brook Lopez

You can have any 3 other players in the history of the world, and you'd still lose.

Why? Basketball is a game of mismatches. Anomalies on the court (aka small PGs and big C's) have areas of the court where they cannot defend.

Offensively, I can take advantage of players like 'Shaq' by 1) Putting a big man like Chris Bosh in the corner 3 to draw out 'Shaq', and by forcing a switch on the pick and roll to similarly draw out 'Shaq'. I can take advantage of players like 'Nash' by 1) Posting up my PG Sean Livingston, and by forcing a switch on the pick and roll to let anyone else on my team post up 'Nash'.

Defensively, the only advantage players like Chris Paul, Nash, Stockton have is the pick and roll. They force you to switch, to help, etc and use their passing ability to kick to the corner three or find the roll man. If you have my lineup, I would never have to switch and never have to help. No threes or layups created by setting a pick for Stockton or Nash or Paul.

Rebounding: The ball can bounce towards any area of the court on a missed shot. I need all 5 of my players to be good on the boards.

Fast Break: You can't have only 1 player being able to lead the break and having to hand the ball to this PG every time. You also cannot have a fast break with only 3 or 4 players able to run and have your C walking up the court.

Basketball is all about spacing and mismatches. Having 5 players who can stand anywhere on the court and score and can stand anywhere on the court and defend that area is where the NBA is going. Building a team of 6'7 players with a 7'3 wingspans that have adequate dribbling, passing, shooting, and can defend is the key.

In the advanced stats NBA, any weakness can be exploited. It is important that all 5 players can defend all areas and can score in all areas. Traditional PGs and Cs fail at this miserably.

Spurs get this. Kawhi Leonard, Davis Bertans, Austin Daye, Jean Charles Livio, Danny Green, Boris Diaw are all examples of where this is going. Teams drafting Jimmer Fredette, Cody Zeller, Greg Oden, Derrick Rose, Ricky Rubio, Alex Lin just do not understand how to build a team. Teams like the Clippers and Memphis (Paul - Blake - Jordan) and (Conley - Randolph - Gasol) have zero chance to win a title. Both are strong at PG and C and weak on versatility.

[dallasmaverickslose]

:dizzy

[spurraider21]

is it possible that we haven't seen a PG led team win a title because its been decades since the best player in the league was a pg? there isn't something inherently wrong with the point guard position...

[irishock]

Yeah going with Chris Bosh over Prime Shaq is a good option.

[Gino-Step]

Magic Johnson does not count as PG. He's like LeBron / Shaun Livingston by my definition. He's actually huge. My point is geared towards the fact that you cannot have a tiny guy that can be abused or a big stiff that can be abused. Key is versatility to avoid mismatches.

[Clipper Nation]

:lmao Comparing Magic and LeBron to Shaun fucking Livingston

[Gino-Step]

Since 2004:

1 + 4/5 combinations lose
Brook Lopez + Deron Williams
Dwight Howard + Nash
Blake + Paul
Amare + Nash
Bogut + Curry
Yao + Francis
Ilgauskas + LeBron

2-3-4 combinations win.
Wade + LeBron + Bosh
Harden + Durant + Ibaka
Stephenson + George + West
Ginobili/Green + Kawhi + Splitter/Diaw
Ginobili + Bowen + Duncan (mobile version)
Ray Allen + Paul Pierce + Kevin Garnett
Kobe + Odom + Pau
Hamilton + Tayshaun + Rasheed

[Leetonidas]

What the fucking fuck?? :lol

Hope you're not srs

[Leetonidas]

Btw Spurs won a title in 2007 with Duncan playing C and their PG winning a Finals MVP

/thread

[Gino-Step]

:lmao Comparing Magic and LeBron to Shaun fucking Livingston

Um... yea... They are all 6'7-6'9. Livingston in that sense is much closer to Magic than Nash, Stockton, Chris Paul etc. My point is all about mismatches.

[Leetonidas]

Chris Paul/Michael Jordan/LeBron James/Dirk Nowitzki/Shaquille O'Neal

You really think your shitty team is going to stop that? :lmao :lmao

[Clipper Nation]

Um... yea... They are all 6'7-6'9. Livingston in that sense is much closer to Magic than Nash, Stockton, Chris Paul etc. My point is all about mismatches.

I don't care how big he is, Livingston - an okay role player who is coming off one of the most greusome knee injuries in NBA history - is not a bigger mismatch than Nash, Stockton, or CP3 :lol

And if you want to talk about mismatches, prime Shaq was a mismatch for pretty much everybody - but he was a center, so he doesn't fit in to your terrible take :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Btw Spurs won a title in 2007 with Duncan playing C and their PG winning a Finals MVP

/thread

To be fair, Duncan was the real Finals MVP that year, Enrique just padded stats against Boobie Gibson :lol

[Leetonidas]

Shaq would average 70ppg with Chris fucking Bosh guarding him :lmao

[Leetonidas]

To be fair, Duncan was the real Finals MVP that year, Enrique just padded stats against Boobie Gibson :lol

Agreed tbh but since then it's pretty clear to non-Manutard and Enrique hater Spurfans that this is a PG/C led team imo

[Michael Jordan.]

Shaq would average 70ppg with Chris fucking Bosh guarding him :lmao
Kobe would have to pass the ball.

[Leetonidas]

Kobe would have to pass the ball.

tbh that's why I picked you to be on my team :lol He said I had to pick from the legendary PGs and Cs he listed and then any other 3 players in the history of the world :lol

[Gino-Step]

I don't care how big he is, Livingston - an okay role player who is coming off one of the most greusome knee injuries in NBA history - is not a bigger mismatch than Nash, Stockton, or CP3 :lol

And if you want to talk about mismatches, prime Shaq was a mismatch for pretty much everybody - but he was a center, so he doesn't fit in to your terrible take :lol

Klay Thompson and LeBron James stops Tony Parker.
Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard stops Steph Curry.

Chris Bosh and LeBron at the 4/5 spot forces one of Tim Duncan and Tiago Splitter to sit down.
Steph Curry coming off the pick and roll forces Tim Duncan to sit down. Freaking Game 6 forces Tim Duncan to sit down. Think about that!

There is not a thing you can do to render Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, Sean Livingston, or Chris Bosh useless. That's my point.

[Thebesteva]

Center led teams don't win championships?

Shaq
Hakim
Robinson (Who was a beast in his last season)

Just to name a few. Ya'll niggas is losing yourself over this small ball bs, only Lebron and Wade can make that work.

[Michael Jordan.]

Center led teams don't win championships?

Shaq
Hakim
Robinson (Who was a beast in his last season)

Just to name a few. Ya'll niggas is losing yourself over this small ball bs, only Lebron and Wade can make that work.
Come on son, the Spurs were led by Duncan, even though Robinson was still servicable, he didn't lead them anywhere except to an anal destruction by Hakeem.

[Thebesteva]

Come on son, the Spurs were led by Duncan, even though Robinson was still servicable, he didn't lead them anywhere except to an anal destruction by Hakeem.

But the point of the thread is retarded. Everyone knows PG led teams suck ass and Center led teams do win championships. However, the current model of the NBA is soft pussies that run up and down fast and draw fouls.

[Gino-Step]

Come on son, the Spurs were led by Duncan, even though Robinson was still servicable, he didn't lead them anywhere except to an anal destruction by Hakeem.

I purposefully did not include Hakeem because he's 6'9 and mobile as fuck.

Today's NBA is all about mismatches. You can put Shaq in a bad position. Imagine him having to guard Steph Curry off a dribble pick and roll. I'd much rather have Tiago Splitter or Hakeem in that defensive situation for example.

[Leetonidas]

Did you forget that prime Shaq is a mismatch for your entire team? He would score the ball on every single possession.

[Sybok]

I understand the OP's point but he's relying on jump shooting to win games, while the opposing team is relying on much higher percentage dunks and layups. If you don't double Shaq, he scores every trip. You get a team shooting 70% and you're not going to beat them with jumpshooting.

[Clipper Nation]

There is not a thing you can do to render Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, Sean Livingston, or Chris Bosh useless. That's my point.

Leonard, Butler, and Livingston are nowhere near go-to scorers and Bosh is soft and inconsistent.... opposing teams can just let Durant get his and shut down everyone else....

Your take is retarded, deal with it :lol

[Gino-Step]

LeBron James - Kevin Durant - Michael Jordan - Scottie Pippen - Kevin Garnett

for example would beat

John Stockton - Steve Nash - Michael Jordan - Tim Duncan - Shaquille O'Neal.

See my point? If you're going to be out of position, you want a traditional wing man playing PG and C. You do not traditional small PGs and big Centers having to play out of position.

[Gino-Step]

Did you forget that prime Shaq is a mismatch for your entire team? He would score the ball on every single possession.

I don't think you'd be able to even feed the ball into Shaq. My team is 5 guys of 7'3 wingspan or more. They would be able to dig in and double and recover better than anyone.

[Clipper Nation]

However, the current model of the NBA is soft pussies that run up and down fast and draw fouls.

No, the current model of the NBA is ball movement on offense and an emphasis on team defense over individual D.... sorry that selfish, inefficient isoballers like your boy Kirby are obsolete :lol

[Gino-Step]

No, the current model of the NBA is ball movement on offense and an emphasis on team defense over individual D.... sorry that selfish, inefficient isoballers like your boy Kirby are obsolete :lol

Clipper Nation, you're making my point man. If the current model of the NBA is ball movement, how do you have ball movement if it suddenly stops if it gets to the hands of Bogut, Oden, Perkins, DeAndre? And also, if the emphasis is on team defence, then how can you allow weak points in your 'team' defence that can be exploited aka Nash / Paul in the post and/or a big slow guy defending the P&R? The best team defence is 5 guys who can do somewhat of an adequate job defending all areas of the court. And best ball movement scheme is if 5 guys can all pass and shoot and move.

That's the type of roster I'm arguing for. All 5 guys 6'6-6'10 with 7'2-7'5 wingspans weighing 200-240 lbs. Example:

Jimmy Butler
Paul George
Carmelo Anthony
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Bosh
Kevin Garnett

Would destroy any combination of players under 6'3 and under 200 lbs and over 6'10 and over 300 lbs. Cause these guys by definition are NOT versatile and cannot defend 5 positions!

Chris Paul Steve Nash Bob Cousy John Stockton Shaq Divac Sabonis Yao.

[Leetonidas]

LeBron James - Kevin Durant - Michael Jordan - Scottie Pippen - Kevin Garnett

for example would beat

John Stockton - Steve Nash - Michael Jordan - Tim Duncan - Shaquille O'Neal.

See my point? If you're going to be out of position, you want a traditional wing man playing PG and C. You do not traditional small PGs and big Centers having to play out of position.

Yeah that's because LeBron/KD are way better than Stockton and Nash overall, not because they're PGs. And why the fuck do you have Nash and Stockton in the backcourt? You are taking a very retarded angle to make a decent point about spacing

[Clipper Nation]

Clipper Nation, you're making my point man. If the current model of the NBA is ball movement, how do you have ball movement if it suddenly stops if it gets to the hands of Bogut, Oden, Perkins, DeAndre?
Way to cherrypick some of the most offensively-challenged centers in the league to make your point.... meanwhile, a center like Noah who can pass the ball doesn't hurt ball movement at all, so of course, you completely ignore that....

That's like if I cherrypicked a chucker like Rudy Gay to claim that small forwards suck and don't win championships :lol


And also, if the emphasis is on team defence, then how can you allow weak points in your 'team' defence that can be exploited aka Nash / Paul in the post and/or a big slow guy defending the P&R?
Team defense doesn't mean you have zero weaknesses, it means that the rest of the team can cover for your weak points by knowing where they're supposed to be....


The best team defence is 5 guys who can do somewhat of an adequate job defending all areas of the court.
I would say CP3 is a more-than-adequate defender for his position, so I'm not seeing your point here.... just because someone is a point guard doesn't mean they automatically can't play defense....

[HemisfairArena]

Nice that you excluded the best PG and C example out of your equation because you don't consider Magic a PG because he was to big. Way to cater to your point. Magic and Kareem crush your argument. And maybe you want look at Isiah Thomas and Bill Lamibeer. The Pistons won those titles because of a PG and C.

[Gino-Step]

Way to cherrypick some of the most offensively-challenged centers in the league to make your point.... meanwhile, a center like Noah who can pass the ball doesn't hurt ball movement at all, so of course, you completely ignore that....

That's like if I cherrypicked a chucker like Rudy Gay to claim that small forwards suck and don't win championships :lol

Team defense doesn't mean you have zero weaknesses, it means that the rest of the team can cover for your weak points by knowing where they're supposed to be....


I would say CP3 is a more-than-adequate defender for his position, so I'm not seeing your point here.... just because someone is a point guard doesn't mean they automatically can't play defense....

I like PGs like Livingston and C's like Bosh. What I'm saying is I want my 5 guys to be positionless as much as possible. People who can seriously only play either the PG or C position are useless. I like Noah too. I like Splitter cause they can defend guards when needed. Shaq and Brook Lopez cannot for example.

Teams that have defined strengths and defined weaknesses will be exploited in the advanced stats age. The best way to cover for that is to have 5 guys who are roughly the same. The best chance of that is to have have players with the quickness, shooting, and passing of smaller guys, but the length, and rebounding of taller guys. LeBron and Durant are the best of this breed. George, Kawhi, Butler, Livingston, are examples of the next tier. The players with the least versatility aka Shaq, Yao, Nash, Stockton etc are the ones you want to avoid regardless of how good they post up or how good they rebound or how good they pass or how good they shoot. You want to avoid being exploitable. In a 7 game series with today's level of scouting, ANYTHING can be exploited.

[Gino-Step]

Nice that you excluded the best PG and C example out of your equation because you don't consider Magic a PG because he was to big. Way to cater to your point. Magic and Kareem crush your argument. And maybe you want look at Isiah Thomas and Bill Lamibeer. The Pistons won those titles because of a PG and C.

Thats from several decades ago. I'm saying in today's NBA where it's possible to have do-it-all players with more rounded skillets, you want to have them. Otherwise you will get exploited by other teams who have them.

[HemisfairArena]

And how about the last time the Pistons won a title and beat a Laker team with Billups and Ben Wallace as the PG and C? Billups winning the Finals MVP.

[HemisfairArena]

Tony Parker winning the last Spurs title MVP.

[Clipper Nation]

In a 7 game series with today's level of scouting, ANYTHING can be exploited.
Yes, and that includes your ideal team's lack of a dependable scoring threat besides Durant :lol

You claim to want positionless basketball, but then you write off two specific positions entirely.... do positions matter or do they not? You can't have it both ways....

[Gino-Step]

And how about the last time the Pistons won a title and beat a Laker team with Billups and Ben Wallace as the PG and C? Billups winning the Finals MVP.

Billups was a big guard and Ben Wallace was 6'6 who can defend all areas reasonably well. You're making my point. I don't care if they were labeled a C or not. I care about were they a C that could defend a SF or SG. Were they a PG who could defend a SF or PF.


In the advanced stats age, you cannot afford to have ANOMALIES. Aka players who can only defend certain types. Cause Golden State will post up Harrison Barnes on Tony Parker and put Klay Thompson on him. San Antonio will post up Steph Curry and put Danny Green on him.

What are you going to do to Kawhi, LeBron, George, Durant, Jimmy Butler?

I'm talking about body type and versatility. Not whether they are PG or C's.

[spurraider21]

PG + Center teams don't win

:lmao magic and kareem

[Thebesteva]

No, the current model of the NBA is ball movement on offense and an emphasis on team defense over individual D.... sorry that selfish, inefficient isoballers like your boy Kirby are obsolete :lol

Why does everything end with "Kirby" for you? Jesus Christ salty saltenator get it together man. I swear we can post about how the weather is nice in LA and you will respond " :cry Good it can help heal Kobe's achilles faster :cry"

[Gino-Step]

Yes, and that includes your ideal team's lack of a dependable scoring threat besides Durant :lol

You claim to want positionless basketball, but then you write off two specific positions entirely.... do positions matter or do they not? You can't have it both ways....

Who said I wrote off two positions? I have Sean Livingston playing POINT GUARD. And I have Chris Bosh playing CENTER. My point is Sean Livingston and Chris Bosh can switch roles and you would be decently OK with Chris Bosh playing point and Sean Livingston playing centre. If you had Magic at PG and LeBron at C and you switched roles, you'd be decently ok.

If you had Nash and Bogut, you'd be FKED. Chris Paul at Center and Blake Griffen at PG? you'd be FKED. That's what I'm trying to argue. The traditional PGs and the traditional C's are not what you want.

[Clipper Nation]

I especially love how OP arbitrarily lists ringless 2/3/4 combinations like Harden/Durant/Ibaka, Stephenson/George/West, and Ginobili/Kawhi/Diaw as "winners" but writes Blake/CP3 and Bogut/Curry off as "losers" already....

[HemisfairArena]

Billups was a big guard and Ben Wallace was 6'6 who can defend all areas reasonably well. You're making my point. I don't care if they were labeled a C or not. I care about were they a C that could defend a SF or SG. Were they a PG who could defend a SF or PF.


In the advanced stats age, you cannot afford to have ANOMALIES. Aka players who can only defend certain types. Cause Golden State will post up Harrison Barnes on Tony Parker and put Klay Thompson on him. San Antonio will post up Steph Curry and put Danny Green on him.

What are you going to do to Kawhi, LeBron, George, Durant, Jimmy Butler?

All you are trying to do is twist anything against your argument into your favor. Why not just debate yourself? Less stress.

I'm talking about body type and versatility. Not whether they are PG or C's.

[Gino-Step]

PG + Center teams don't win

:lmao magic and kareem

Again, Magic is not a PG. Magic would have done fine as a PF, as a C, as a SF.

My argument is about non versatile players: Nash, Stockton, Chris Paul Shaq, Dwight, Bynum Oden etc.

Your non-versatility gets exploited.

Jordan, Pippen, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi, are relatively versatile. You need your whole team to be as versatile as possible. That way you can run a positionless offence and defence and not be exploited on cross-matches.

[HemisfairArena]

OP wants to twist any facts we provide against his argument into his favor. OP should just argue with himself......less stress that way.

[Clipper Nation]

My point is Sean Livingston and Chris Bosh can switch roles and you would be decently OK with Chris Bosh playing point and Sean Livingston playing centre.
Nobody with a brain in their head would be okay with Bosh at PG and Livingston at center, are you nuts?

I'd rather have Blake at PG than Bosh - Blake actually has decent handles and can pass the ball :lol

[spurraider21]

Magic is not a PG
:lmao

please define what a point guard is, and no, "the shortest guy in the starting lineup" is not the answer

[Gino-Step]

I'm not making this up. Just look at basic roster construction across the NBA.

NBA ball is becoming more like Euro-ball / FIBA / Olympic ball. Look at the types of rosters USA is trying to put together. Anthony Davis, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh as versatile bigs.

Would you rather have a lineup of LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, Carmelo and Paul George or would you rather have a lineup of CP3, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, and Tim Duncan. You want 5 guys who can all replace each other and guard anyone.

[HemisfairArena]

Billups was a big guard and Ben Wallace was 6'6 who can defend all areas reasonably well. You're making my point. I don't care if they were labeled a C or not. I care about were they a C that could defend a SF or SG. Were they a PG who could defend a SF or PF.


In the advanced stats age, you cannot afford to have ANOMALIES. Aka players who can only defend certain types. Cause Golden State will post up Harrison Barnes on Tony Parker and put Klay Thompson on him. San Antonio will post up Steph Curry and put Danny Green on him.

What are you going to do to Kawhi, LeBron, George, Durant, Jimmy Butler?

I'm talking about body type and versatility. Not whether they are PG or C's.

Ben Wallace was 6'6? LMAO! Epic fail.

[Gino-Step]

:lmao

please define what a point guard is, and no, "the shortest guy in the starting lineup" is not the answer

He's not in the sense that he could have played PF. Just like LeBron is not in the sense he could have and is playing PF.

Nash is a PG. He wouldn't even make college basketball as a PF.

That's what I mean by versatility.

Magic was a PG but not limited to being one. Nash was a PG and limited to being just that which is why you could exploit him and force him to guard a PF off a switch on a Pick & Roll.

[Gino-Step]

Ben Wallace was 6'6? LMAO! Epic fail.

Ben Wallace was 6'6 without shoes yep. He had a huge wingspan which is why I love him on my team. He could guard a Pick & Roll

[spurraider21]

He's not in the sense that he could have played PF. Just like LeBron is not in the sense he could have and is playing PF.

Nash is a PG. He wouldn't even make college basketball as a PF.

That's what I mean by versatility.

Magic was a PG but not limited to being one. Nash was a PG and limited to being just that which is why you could exploit him and force him to guard a PF off a switch on a Pick & Roll.
i asked you to define a point guard. you have failed to do so. i'll give you another shot though

[Clipper Nation]

i asked you to define a point guard. you have failed to do so. i'll give you another shot though

He's also failed to explain why Bosh would be a better point guard than Blake, whose passing skills are good enough to be an important part of our offense :lol

[HemisfairArena]

Ben Wallace was 6'6 without shoes yep. He had a huge wingspan which is why I love him on my team. He could guard a Pick & Roll

You're just gonna go down with the ship....being wrong be damned......

[spurraider21]

He's also failed to explain why Bosh would be a better point guard than Blake, whose passing skills are good enough to be an important part of our offense :lol
blake is arguably the best ball-handler at the position

[Aztecfan03]

I'm not making this up. Just look at basic roster construction across the NBA.

NBA ball is becoming more like Euro-ball / FIBA / Olympic ball. Look at the types of rosters USA is trying to put together. Anthony Davis, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh as versatile bigs.

Would you rather have a lineup of LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, Carmelo and Paul George or would you rather have a lineup of CP3, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, and Tim Duncan. You want 5 guys who can all replace each other and guard anyone.

just stop. No one wants to start 3 pg's.

[Gino-Step]

i asked you to define a point guard. you have failed to do so. i'll give you another shot though

Anyone is a point guard. Anyone is a centre. Anyone should be able to score on all areas of the court. Failure to do so will be exploited. Anyone is a point guard defender. Anyone is a centre defender. Anyone should be able to defend all areas of the court. Failure to do so will be exploited.

A point guard by the traditional definition is the player who brings the ball up the court and initiates the offence and sets players up.

In today's NBA that's very blurry. Manu Ginobili and Patty Mills. Who is the point guard? Mario Chalmers and LeBron James who is the point guard?

Which is why you want guys that cannot be exploited. Sean Livingston is less likely to be exploited than Steve Nash. Tiago Splitter is less likely to be exploited than Brook Lopez.

Advanced stats NBA offences and defences have the ability to put anybody in a compromising position. So the question is can your 'PG' do somewhat of an OK job guarding the biggest guy on the other team and can your 'C' do somewhat of an OK job guarding the fastest guy on the other team.

Nash, Parker, Bogut, Lopez, and these types fail brutally at this task. Which is why the league is becoming so wing dominated. Teams want the 6'6 guys that can move like a 1-2, with the length of a 4-5.

[Gino-Step]

just stop. No one wants to start 3 pg's.

OK. But how come my team can beat you starting 5 SF's?

You're making my point. You can't start 3 'PGs' and 2 'C's, but how come my team can start 5 'SF's and beat you?

Doesn't that tell you that if you are going to have a 'PG', it should be a 'PG' that's able to guard a SF and if you are going to have a 'C', it should be a 'C' that's mobile enough to guard a SF? In which case, you've pretty much come down to an ideal roster of

5 Jimmy Butlers would beat 5 Steve Nashs
5 Kawhi Leonards would beat 5 Shaq's.

Why? Less areas to exploit.

NBA is going to become more versatile. It's trending that way whether you like it or not.

[Clipper Nation]

Anyone is a point guard. Anyone is a centre. Anyone should be able to score on all areas of the court.
That'd be a nice luxury to have, but it's not realistic right now... LeBron is the exception, not the rule, so you still need specialists at certain positions....

I do agree that total positionless basketball is the future, but that's a long way off still and not relevant to today's game....

[Venti Quattro]

Again, Magic is not a PG.

Please walk into a burning building and never come back out.

[spurraider21]

ok so i'm just gna cut the crap out and get your definition of a point guard


Anyone is a point guard

:lmao


A point guard by the traditional definition is the player who brings the ball up the court and initiates the offence and sets players up.

so tell me again how magic isn't a point guard

[Clipper Nation]

Also, reducing the point guard position to being able to score at that area of the court completely ignores all the other aspects that a point guard has to be good at....

[ezau]

OP hasn't heard of Isiah Thomas (the one from Detroit).

[HemisfairArena]

ok so i'm just gna cut the crap out and get your definition of a point guard



:lmao



so tell me again how magic isn't a point guard

Exactly OP wants to twist things in his/her favor....turnabout is fair play. Kobe is small enough to play PG so I consider him a PG and him and Shaq won 3 titles...there is another PG and C combo.

[Gino-Step]

Also, reducing the point guard position to being able to score at that area of the court completely ignores all the other aspects that a point guard has to be good at....

Clipper Nation, I have a lot of respect for your bball knowledge and IQ.

I may be talking in extremes but I'm glad you're starting to see where I'm headed. Yes positionless basketball is the future and it's not there yet. That's why the team still has a Sean Livingston who is 6'7 and on the smaller side to go with a Chris Bosh who is on the larger side. It's not 5 LeBrons.

Yes a PG does other things.... but Stockton has to do all this because Malone and Ostertag cannot do shit for dribbling or passing.

In a positionless system, the burden of creating for others and passing and ball handling is spread equally. Just like how you see Kawhi bring the ball up for a rebound, this is what would happen if you had 5 Kawhis on the court at once. Anyone who got the rebound would lead the break.

Both Pop, Spoelstra, and Phil's system does not require certain players to bear all of the rebounding or bear all of the passing burden. It requires spacing, movement, and versatility.

This is why Patty can actually do ok cause he's got Manu and Belli taking on some of the PG duties.

If you need Chris Paul and Steve Nash to be dribbling for 20 seconds by themselves, it's cause you've got a seriously flawed roster. The fact that Blake is showing some bball IQ and passing ability is a great sign for the Clips. That's added versatility points. Unfortunately, if you're a 6'1 PG with a 6'2 wingspan or a 7'2 325lb centre, you're pretty limited in what type of versatility you'll be able to acquire over time.

[Gino-Step]

Exactly OP wants to twist things in his/her favor....turnabout is fair play. Kobe is small enough to play PG so I consider him a PG and him and Shaq won 3 titles...there is another PG and C combo.

Yep Kobe at PG, Kobe at SG + Shaq at C would indeed be better than Steve Nash at PG, Steve Nash at SG and Shaq at C.

The more you can have your PG be SF size, the better you'd be all things being equal. The more you can have your C be SF in speed, the better you'll be all things being equal.

[spurraider21]

Gino-Step what is a point guard? you keep using the term point guard, or PG, but i don't know what you are referring to tbh. can you please clarify in a post without going in a bunch of different directions and examples of lebron/kobe? just tell me what a point guard is

[HemisfairArena]

Yep Kobe at PG, Kobe at SG + Shaq at C would indeed be better than Steve Nash at PG, Steve Nash at SG and Shaq at C.

The more you can have your PG be SF size, the better you'd be all things being equal. The more you can have your C be SF in speed, the better you'll be all things being equal.

Disagree..again. You take Kobe off the Lakers and put in Nash in his prime with a prime Shaq..they win as many titles as Kobe/Shaq....if not more.

[HemisfairArena]

Nash had the ability in his prime to take a career 8pt/gm player and turn him into a 15 pt/gm player. That is what a PG can do.

[irishock]

Take this shit upstairs, for Christ's fucking sake.

[Clipper Nation]

I do get your point that having a bigger PG is an advantage - but then you listed a core of Deron Williams (a big PG) and Lopez as an automatic loser earlier in the thread, so you seem to be contradicting yourself.... additionally the downsides of having a small PG can also be mitigated if you have other players who can create for themselves and others when the PG is shut down by a bigger player, so claiming that it's impossible to win with a smaller point guard is an overreaction....

Also, you bring up the Heat as an example of your point - but a huge reason why Miami has been slumping as of late is because Norris Cole and Mario Chalmers have been struggling and it has had a negative impact on the offense.... even the Heat still need some production from the 1, tbh....

[Gino-Step]

Gino-Step (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=42830) what is a point guard? you keep using the term point guard, or PG, but i don't know what you are referring to tbh. can you please clarify in a post without going in a bunch of different directions and examples of lebron/kobe? just tell me what a point guard is

I don't think you understand where I'm going with this. Sorry for that.

You keep trying to define PG into a restricted thing. As if PG is someone who dribbles the ball and sets up his teammates. And then define C as a dominant big man who posts up and defends the paint.

I'm trying to tell you the future of the NBA is a positionless future. It doesn't matter who of your 5 players is posting up and who of your 5 players is bringing the ball up. It doesn't matter which of your 5 players is guarding whatever player on the other team.

The best way to accomplish that is to have 5 players on the court who are all 6-6 to 6-10 with 7-3is wingspans who can adequately move, rebound, shoot, pass, dribble.

To try to win with players that are less versatile is futile. That's why I'm calling out the guys who can only play "dribble the ball up the court and create for teammates" and calling out the guys who can only play "dominant big man who posts up and defends the paint".

The Sport is getting way more nuanced than that bro. Why do we see stretch 4's? Cause that's the first position that a wing guy is going to take over. Next, they take over the 5 and 1 positions until the sport is positionless.

At that point, Kawhi will be playing PG, C, SF, PF, SG it don't even fucking matter what these positions are called.

[Gino-Step]

I do get your point that having a bigger PG is an advantage - but then you listed a core of Deron Williams (a big PG) and Lopez as an automatic loser earlier in the thread, so you seem to be contradicting yourself.... additionally the downsides of having a small PG can also be mitigated if you have other players who can create for themselves and others when the PG is shut down by a bigger player, so claiming that it's impossible to win with a smaller point guard is an overreaction....

Also, you bring up the Heat as an example of your point - but a huge reason why Miami has been slumping as of late is because Norris Cole and Mario Chalmers have been struggling and it has had a negative impact on the offense.... even the Heat still need some production from the 1, tbh....

Nothing is impossible. But these are the areas you can exploit in trades. Spurs traded George Hill for Kawhi Leonard. Spurs traded Nando de Colo for Austin Daye. Spurs tried to Sign Andrei Kirilenko. Every move they make is geared in this direction. Drafted DeJuan Blair.

If I'm the Clips and I can get a Jeff Green / Jimmy Butler type for DeAndre Jordan? Yep I do that. If I'm the Clips and I can get a Carmelo for Blake?

Dwyane Wade has a 6'11 wingspan and he plays SG.

Your clips are trying to play small at the guards and big at the PF/C spots which does not work in the playoffs. JJ Redick has a 6'3 wingspan. Darren Collison has a 6'3 wingspan. Chris Paul has a 6'4 wingspan. This doesn't work against Manu Ginobili, Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard etc.

Jamal Crawford tho is 6'5 with a 6'10 wingspan (same as Blake Griffin). Those are the types of players your Clippers needs to be getting.

[Gino-Step]

I do get your point that having a bigger PG is an advantage - but then you listed a core of Deron Williams (a big PG) and Lopez as an automatic loser earlier in the thread, so you seem to be contradicting yourself.... additionally the downsides of having a small PG can also be mitigated if you have other players who can create for themselves and others when the PG is shut down by a bigger player, so claiming that it's impossible to win with a smaller point guard is an overreaction....

Also, you bring up the Heat as an example of your point - but a huge reason why Miami has been slumping as of late is because Norris Cole and Mario Chalmers have been struggling and it has had a negative impact on the offense.... even the Heat still need some production from the 1, tbh....

Question for you Clipper Nation respectfully: In a league that you admit is headed towards positionless, how does it feel to have the roster that is least flexible, most position dependent? Your bigs cannot play down: DeAndre cannot play PF. Blake cannot play SF. Your smalls cannot play up. Chris Paul cannot play SG, Jamal Crawford cannot play SF, JJ Redick cannot play SF.

The Spurs are much more flexible. Bigs can play down: Tim Duncan can play PF. Tiago Splitter can play PF. Boris Diaw can play SF. Smalls can play up. Manu Ginobili can play SF. Danny Green can play SF. Kawhi Leonard can play PF.

[Clipper Nation]

If I'm the Clips and I can get a Jeff Green / Jimmy Butler type for DeAndre Jordan? Yep I do that. If I'm the Clips and I can get a Carmelo for Blake?
I'd trade DJ in a heartbeat, mainly because I still don't trust him come playoff time, but I absolutely would not trade Blake for Melo and neither would the Clippers.... Blake is a plenty versatile player, and by trading for Melo we'd either be creating a massive hole in the starting lineup or downgrading at power forward for no reason....


Jamal Crawford tho is 6'5 with a 6'10 wingspan (same as Blake Griffin). Those are the types of players your Clippers needs to be getting.
Danny Granger is also big for his position and versatile (he can play spot minutes at the 4 if need be), and there's still a chance he could move up into the starting lineup if Barnes' play starts slipping again....

Keep in mind that you also need to build a team with your conference in mind - in order to compete with teams who have traditional bigs, like Memphis, Houston, and yes, the Spurs, we need to be big at PF and C... this also gives us the same advantage that Indiana has in a matchup with Miami since the Heat are so reliant on small-ball...

[Clipper Nation]

Question for you Clipper Nation respectfully: In a league that you admit is headed towards positionless, how does it feel to have the roster that is least flexible, most position dependent? Your bigs cannot play down: DeAndre cannot play PF. Blake cannot play SF. Your smalls cannot play up. Chris Paul cannot play SG, Jamal Crawford cannot play SF, JJ Redick cannot play SF.

The Spurs are much more flexible. Bigs can play down: Tim Duncan can play PF. Tiago Splitter can play PF. Smalls can play up. Boris Diaw can play SF. Manu Ginobili can play SF. Danny Green can play SF. Kawhi Leonard can play PF.

I admit that positionless basketball is the future, but it's still a long way off because it has to catch on at the high school, AAU and college levels first in order for there to be a big enough pool of positionless players in the NBA to make it worthwhile... as a result, it doesn't really concern me that much with our current team, tbh...

[Gino-Step]

I admit that positionless basketball is the future, but it's still a long way off because it has to catch on at the high school, AAU and college levels first in order for there to be a big enough pool of positionless players in the NBA to make it worthwhile... as a result, it doesn't really concern me that much with our current team, tbh...

Don't you precisely want to go positionless while there aren't enough players for other teams to do the same? It would be pointless to go positionless and have 5 Jimmy Butlers when the other team has 5 Kevin Durants.

You would want to be early to the transition so as to have some advantage? The Spurs in their new model 2012-2014 FEASTS on Lakers, Memphis, and Clippers in the playoffs sweeping all of them while having more trouble with the more positionless teams like Golden State (replace Lee with Barnes), Thunder, and Heat.

I think you're already late on that switch to be honest having a team where your 3 best players are a traditional PG, PF and Centre. Blake is the only one I see becoming more versatile having added a jumper and passing skills.

[Gino-Step]

5 Austin Dayes also would destroy 5 Shaq's or 5 Steve Nashes. So would 5 Giannis Antetokounmpo's.

See the problem is when you have a Nash and Shaq on your team, it forces you to have certain other players on the court with them. You need to add a traditional Power Forward to help with boards. You need a lockdown 2 to help Nash play D etc. Austin Daye in those situations doesn't help you. But if you put Austin Daye in a situation where Tiago, Danny, Kawhi can rebound... then Austin doesn't need to be compared in rebounding ability to other 4's.

If you have 5 all around players who can do everything, your lack of true PF skills are masked. Just like Patty's lack of PG skills are masked by Manu and Belli.

This is why Spurs have chosen with the exception of being nice to Tony Parker and Tim Duncan for their legacy, to only go for versatile players. Ideally, Duncan wouldn't even play against teams like Golden State where he gets abused by Steph Curry - Andrew Bogut pick and roll where he cannot guard the shooters. Parker gets abused by having to defend Harrison Barnes or Klay Thompson in the post since Danny Green / Kawhi is needed to guard Steph Curry.

Ideally, if you had a team of Sean Livingston, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis Antenokounmpo, and Chris Bosh with Boris Diaw, Andrei Kirilenko, and Austin Daye as your backups, you would not have any problems with cross matches.

But I understand that we must be loyal to Parker and Duncan. And I appreciate Duncan having tried to make himself more versatile by losing weight and adding a bit of outside shooting capabilities.

[Clipper Nation]

5 Austin Dayes also would destroy 5 Shaq's

Okay, now the Austin Daye semen cloud has officially gone too far :lol

[chief keef]

Fuck small ball

[Gino-Step]

Ideal yet realistic roster:
Starting 5
Michael Carter Williams
Danny Green
Jimmy Butler
Kawhi Leonard
Tiago Splitter

Subs:Manu Ginobili, Boris Diaw, Sean Livingston, Austin Daye

absolutely unstoppable in mobility and length and shooting combination. Switch all pick and rolls on defense and this lineup will never be put in a compromising position in terms of giving up kickout corner threes cause big man wasn't able to contain the guards etc. length to double on any big men and quickness to recover (post ups are least efficient shot in basketball) and too many mismatches in a motion offence on the other end on either a small pg like Nash or a slow big man like Brook Lopez.

[Killakobe81]

Disagree..again. You take Kobe off the Lakers and put in Nash in his prime with a prime Shaq..they win as many titles as Kobe/Shaq....if not more.

:rollin
:lol
:lmao

[Killakobe81]

I get Gino-step point about roster flexibilty but he went too far ...
His dream team still has flaws and would still get smashed by the HEat of last year or even this year's Spurs.

[Killakobe81]

Funny thing is I remember Pat Riley saying something similar (late 80's) having 5 players between 6 foot 7 and 6 foot 9 would be perfect and he said it for some of the same reasons ...

But Still need talent. And sometimes the better talent comes in smaller packages. (CP3, Tony Parker heck eve Harden is less than ideal size)
Would I rather have a 6 foot 7 CP3? Of course, that is why many (myself included) preferred Dwill before he got fat ... size matters but still would rather have talent. (and No, Dwill is not 6 foot 7 but is taller than Paul)

[chief keef]

:rollin^^^ that team is fucking garbage son

[Gino-Step]

:rollin^^^ that team is fucking garbage son

Of course it's garbage if your hypothetical team was Kevin Durant, LeBron James, James Harden, Paul George, and Roy Hibbert. But you're comparing apples to oranges. I am saying for the 28 teams in the NBA that do not have a Durant or a LeBron, what's the best way to build the team? If you think Austin Daye, Marco Belinelli are benefitting from the system, well so too is Tim Duncan and Tony Parker at their advanced age. Stop looking at these two players as somehow being 'All Stars'. The Spurs have done exceptionally well (top 5 team every year) by assembling a roster very much in the mold I've described.

Let me challenge you: Do not use a single player that has made an All Star Team and try and construct a roster that is better than mine. I will only build my team using my criteria.

12 man roster
Michael Carter-Williams - Sean Livingston
Danny Green - Klay Thompson
Jimmy Butler - Giannis Antenokounmpo
Kawhi Leonard - Tony Snell
Tiago Splitter - Boris Diaw

Extras: Austin Daye - Thaddeus Young


Go ahead. P.S. I didn't at all take the "best players" that haven't made an all star game. I've only followed my own criteria. You can follow a more traditional one, and let's see if anyone thinks your team would win.

[Gino-Step]

.

[spurraider21]

:lol austin daye

[Clipper Nation]

I am saying for the 28 teams in the NBA that do not have a Durant or a LeBron, what's the best way to build the team?
Tanking until you get a legitimate superstar, tbh.... come to think of it, your "ideal team" would be perfect for tanking :lol

[Phillip]

While I generally agree with the actual argument itself (that a team built entirely around a pure PG, or a pure low post center is generally not going to win championships), the OP did a crappy job of explaining it and said some really stupid stuff in the process.

[Gino-Step]

Again, the Spurs are simply being respectful of Duncan and Parker. The truth is they have had a higher points differential this year with those 2 off the court.

Best lineups consists of choosing from the following players: Manu, Green, Leonard, Daye, Diaw, Splitter.

[Killakobe81]

Again, the Spurs are simply being respectful of Duncan and Parker. The truth is they have had a higher points differential this year with those 2 off the court.

Best lineups consists of choosing from the following players: Manu, Green, Leonard, Daye, Diaw, Splitter.

This is the ammo I need in I hate stats debates.
Parker and duncan both have more value than stats would indicate both draw the attention of the defense and both wear down the opponent and draw fouls.
Austin, Daye and Especially KL or talented but there is a huge difference n most cases from being a #1 or #2 option versus being a role player.
A team of role players is great in theory but shitty in actuality.

[Clipper Nation]

there is a huge difference n most cases from being a #1 or #2 option versus being a role player.
Finally you're starting to get the difference between MVPau and Kirby :toast

[Killakobe81]

Finally you're starting to get the difference between MVPau and Kirby :toast

Yall just better make sure you beat dem Mavs Thursday night I may be at the game ...

[chief keef]

Drummond/Miles Plumlee
Ibaka/Gibson
Gallinari/Stephenson
Afflalo/Green
Dragic/Hill

Belinelli, Blatche

good luck beating this team with your shit sandwich roleplayers

[Seventyniner]

Basketball is all about spacing and mismatches. Having 5 players who can stand anywhere on the court and score and can stand anywhere on the court and defend that area is where the NBA is going. Building a team of 6'7 players with a 7'3 wingspans that have adequate dribbling, passing, shooting, and can defend is the key.

Sorry, Nellieball is already a proven failure.

[Gino-Step]

Point proven. Parker and Duncan useless against length and athleticism.

Going to Duncan for a post up - inefficient.

Durant and Westbrook pick and roll- Parker switches on Durant, gets helplessly shot over.
Durant and Ibaka pick and pop - easy shot for Ibaka
Durant gets Duncan to switch onto him, absolutely blows by him for a dunk.

[Gino-Step]

Bump. Thank you. Parker and Duncan are useless against Thunder and Miami. So are George Hill and Roy Hibbert. You want to win, you had better play your all length and athletic lineups.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Daye - Splitter.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Diaw - Splitter

Thank you.

[spurraider21]

as if Indiana is PG and C led :lmao

[Clipper Nation]

Bump. Thank you. Parker and Duncan are useless against Thunder and Miami. So are George Hill and Roy Hibbert. You want to win, you had better play your all length and athletic lineups.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Daye - Splitter.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Diaw - Splitter

Thank you.
You want MethKC to backdoor-sweep you again? :lol

[Gino-Step]

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/6/29/5853702/nba-draft-spurs-kyle-anderson-davis-bertans-livio-jean-charles

Turns out this is exactly what the Spurs are trying to build. Lineups all 6'7-6'10 with no C's or PG's.

[Nathan89]

Point proven. Parker and Duncan useless against length and athleticism.

Going to Duncan for a post up - inefficient.

Durant and Westbrook pick and roll- Parker switches on Durant, gets helplessly shot over.
Durant and Ibaka pick and pop - easy shot for Ibaka
Durant gets Duncan to switch onto him, absolutely blows by him for a dunk.

Duncan useless:lol

[Nathan89]

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/6/29/5853702/nba-draft-spurs-kyle-anderson-davis-bertans-livio-jean-charles

Turns out this is exactly what the Spurs are trying to build. Lineups all 6'7-6'10 with no C's or PG's.

So they don't want Mills and they trying to trade Parker?

[Kool Bob Love]

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/6/29/5853702/nba-draft-spurs-kyle-anderson-davis-bertans-livio-jean-charles

Turns out this is exactly what the Spurs are trying to build. Lineups all 6'7-6'10 with no C's or PG's.

Just finish reading this great thread. Almost FEELS like everyone wanted you to feel wrong to get the best outta you.

Great work man. :tu.

[Nathan89]

Bump. Thank you. Parker and Duncan are useless against Thunder and Miami. So are George Hill and Roy Hibbert. You want to win, you had better play your all length and athletic lineups.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Daye - Splitter.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Diaw - Splitter

Thank you.

Winning with Daye in a suit:lol
Winning with Mills and Parker:lol

[Nathan89]

Duncan shitting on the length and athleticism of Ibaka in that game 6 OT imho

[Kool Bob Love]

Duncan shitting on the length and athleticism of Ibaka in that game 6 OT imho

Duncan hit the game winner with Jackson guarding him with ease.

[midnightpulp]

While I generally agree with the actual argument itself (that a team built entirely around a pure PG, or a pure low post center is generally not going to win championships), the OP did a crappy job of explaining it and said some really stupid stuff in the process.

Pretty much this. I do agree with Gino-Step's essential premise, though. It's why I think teams like the '01 Lakers and such wouldn't fare well in today's NBA. They'd get killed on the PnR. And no, Shaq would not score 80 points. He'd get swarmed with double and triple teams, and these defenders, being so quick and long now, would still be able to recover on outside shooters, so you couldn't necessarily protect Shaq from double teams with outside shooters. That said, it's not that "positionless basketball" is inherently superior to teams built around interior size. The new rule changes have taken the game in this direction, all from Colangelo's ambition to make the game more fluid and aesthetically pleasing after the 90's grind-it-out era.

This is really nothing new. The great teams of the 80's had similar versatility. Larry Bird, Magic, etc could play C, PF, SF, SG, or PG if needed. Guys like James Worthy, Michael Cooper were versatile defenders, ball handlers and scorers. Those Celtics had no one shorter than 6'3" on the roster. The Bad Boys were built around a lengthy and versatile defense, etc.

[Nathan89]

Duncan hit the game winner with Jackson guarding him with ease.

He also did well in the finals shooting right over 6'8 Haslem in the finals.

[Nathan89]

This is really nothing new.

What's new is wanting to play Daye and not Duncan.:lmao

[midnightpulp]

Addressing the problem

So in the spring of 2001, Colangelo gathered a committee of former coaches and players. Among them were Jack Ramsay, Jerry West, Dick Motta and Rod Thorn. And they knew immediately the mandate was to quicken the game.

"The first thing I did when we met was to show everybody a videotape I'd had made of the different eras of the league — the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s and where we'd come," Colangelo said. "It was pretty revealing stuff. It was evident that in the '60s and '70s, guys were free to go pretty much anywhere on the court. And 20 or 30 years ago, there was no half-court offense. It just wasn't how our game was played.

"By having it all on one video, you could see our game evolving — or de-evolving, to be more accurate — it was obvious that we had to make some changes right away."

The committee eliminated the illegal defense rules, virtually allowing zones, and shortened the time to get the ball over the midcourt line from 10 to 8 seconds. It considered going to the trapezoid-shaped lane and allowing a ball on the rim to be live, just like in the international game.

"But we didn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater," Colangelo said. "We wanted to keep our identity."

Two years later, the committee took the next step and began outlawing all hand-checking on the perimeter, getting the league back closer to its roots.

Now fans can again see the full talents of Wade and Kobe Bryant or Gilbert Arenas and James, and cities where the game was dormant for so long began to experience a rebirth.

"It's such fun for me again to watch the NBA," said Hall of Famer Magic Johnson, who was the conductor of the Showtime Lakers that won five titles in the 1980s. "I'm so happy to see teams like Phoenix running, to see them running in Chicago and New Jersey. San Antonio can run. Even my old coach, Pat Riley, has them running in Miami.

"We're back as the topic in the barbershops. The streets are talking again. They like the getting up and down the floor. I love it because that was our style. But also because I believe that's the way the fans love watching it."

[Kool Bob Love]

He also did well in the finals shooting right over 6'8 Haslem in the finals.

Did you read the thread? I think you'll get a better understanding of op's point reading and not skimming over it.

[midnightpulp]

What's new is wanting to play Daye and not Duncan.:lmao

He's not talking about prime Duncan, who was versatility personified. And although I disagree with him, Duncan's primary weakness at his age is guarding the pick and roll (but Duncan's rebounding, passing, pick setting, and jumper [something Splitter doesn't have], and interior defense more than make up for the few points he might give back in PnR situations. I think Duncan had the highest RAPM of any Spur during the playoffs, so Gino-Step needs to do his research on det one).

[Thread]

^Then in front of them "in the spring of 2001" Daddy savaged Mutombo in broad daylight.

That's it. And that's all.

[Nathan89]

Did you read the thread? I think you'll get a better understanding of op's point reading and not skimming over it.

He has a point but he went overboard with it and looks like a complete idiot.

"Again, the Spurs are simply being respectful of Duncan and Parker. The truth is they have had a higher points differential this year with those 2 off the court."

"Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Daye - Splitter."

[Kool Bob Love]

^Then in front of them "in the spring of 2001" Daddy savaged Mutombo in broad daylight.

That's it. And that's all.
Duncan 5

tosb shaq 4

[Nathan89]

He's not talking about prime Duncan, who was versatility personified. And although I disagree with him, Duncan's primary weakness at his age is guarding the pick and roll (but Duncan's rebounding, passing, pick setting, and jumper [something Splitter doesn't have], and interior defense more than make up for the few points he might give back in PnR situations. I think Duncan had the highest RAPM of any Spur during the playoffs, so Gino-Step needs to do his research on det one).

I didn't think he was talking about prime Duncan.

[Thread]

Duncan 5

tosb shaq 4

No, Lovey. The Bag stays in Texas.

Solly Cholly. Maybe next year, daddy-O.

[Gino-Step]

BUMP. Equal size ball is going to take over this league. The more interchangeable your 5 players are the better. I was 2 years early.

[Aztecfan03]

BUMP. Equal size ball is going to take over this league. The more interchangeable your 5 players are the better. I was 2 years early.

Why did you bump your thread when a PG-led team is about to win it all?

[Infinite_limit]

BUMP. Equal size ball is going to take over this league. The more interchangeable your 5 players are the better. I was 2 years early.
Indeed equal size ball has already taken over. And it's cheapened the Association

[Gino-Step]

Bump. Look at Miwaukee. Look at Philadelphia. The league is becoming homogeneous.

[Clipper Nation]

Very odd bump, tbh. If anything, thanks to the Warriors, this league is headed towards five tiny frail guards lined up around the arc chucking threes. Milwaukee is the outlier and Philly has been desperately trying to unload one of their bigs.

[Gino-Step]

Bump.

[Killakobe81]

Bump.

again as I said years ago it wasn't that your theory or premise was wrong you just went to far.
I still don't buy that prime: Shaq/Hakeem/David/Duncan dont still have value.

Let's use David who is like Capela on steroids. A better scoring, better athlete, stronger version of Capella would absolutely murder teams rim running and catching pnr lobs. I would take the 25 pts he would average 15 boards and 3 blocks 3 steals over almost every current NBA player outside Lebron/KD/steph and MAYBE Unibrow. Give him a good ball handler and david would absolutely crush modern Nba defenses plus he would murder them from mid range too ...

David was born to soon and wouldnt need a 3 ball to be dominant either.

[DAF86]

OP was/is right, tbh.

[DAF86]

OP shat on 90% of the posters that posted here, tbh. Time gave him the victory.

[Killakobe81]

OP shat on 90% of the posters that posted here, tbh. Time gave him the victory.

His theory was sound. I mentioned Pat Riley talked about it back in the 80's.
But centers haven't been useless just reduced to a specialty.

1. The team with the two best records both played Centers Rox (Capela/nene) and Raptors (Valucianas/Poetl)
2. Pachulia taking out Kawhi was one of the key plays of the last two years ...
3. Warriors still start a center have as they 3 of the past 4 titles. none are in their death lineups, which is the embodiment of Gino-steps' theory but Looney, Bogut, Mcgee and Zaza have all palyed key roles.
4. State double down and signed Boogie ...
5. Embiid led a sixers resurgence ...

[Killakobe81]

Also didn't Step who is not even 6 foot 4 lead a championship?
Wasnt Kyrie the 2nd most important player the year after?

[DAF86]

His theory was sound. I mentioned Pat Riley talked about it back in the 80's.
But centers haven't been useless just reduced to a specialty.

1. The team with the two best records both played Centers Rox (Capela/nene) and Raptors (Valucianas/Poetl)

Capella is a rarity, a center that moves his feet on defense like a guard. Valanciunas would be a PF in yesterday's NBA. Either way, he's irrelevant. He's not winning a championship as a top 5 player of a team any time soon.


2. Pachulia taking out Kawhi was one of the key plays of the last two years ...

Below the belt, tbh.


3. Warriors still start a center have as they 3 of the past 4 titles. none are in their death lineups, which is the embodiment of Gino-steps' theory but Looney, Bogut, Mcgee and Zaza have all palyed key roles.

When it's winning time, neither of those guys see the floor.


4. State double down and signed Boogie ...

For the MLE it is a no brainer. Doesn't mean they think Boogie will be a vital piece.


5. Embiid led a sixers resurgence ...

Let's see him get past the second round first.

There will always be PG's and centers. But the roles/types of those players will change. The most valuable PG's will be those who are on the taller side of the scale, and the most valuable centers will be those that can move their feet on the perimter. And both aspects come down to one thing: not having defensive liabilities on the floor.

[DAF86]

Also didn't Step who is not even 6 foot 4 lead a championship?
Wasnt Kyrie the 2nd most important player the year after?

Steph is an all-time talent. Kyrie didn't lead a championship team.

[Killakobe81]

Steph is an all-time talent. Kyrie didn't lead a championship team.

I said 2nd best and he hit the biggest shots ...
But we all know Lebron led that team ...

[Killakobe81]

Capella is a rarity, a center that moves his feet on defense like a guard. Valanciunas would be a PF in yesterday's NBA. Either way, he's irrelevant. He's not winning a championship as a top 5 player of a team any time soon.



Below the belt, tbh.



When it's winning time, neither of those guys see the floor.



For the MLE it is a no brainer. Doesn't mean they think Boogie will be a vital piece.



Let's see him get past the second round first.

There will always be PG's and centers. But the roles/types of those players will change. The most valuable PG's will be those who are on the taller side of the scale, and the most valuable centers will be those that can move their feet on the perimter. And both aspects come down to one thing: not having defensive liabilities on the floor.

Was only partially playing but without that late contest, Maybe Kawhi is still a Spur and maybe they even win that series and abnother title. I still think state wins, but ....

No one can say for sure. Kawhi pre injury was the one player who could limit KD on offense amd Green could have at least helped limit Klay. no mtchup for steph still but Spurs had a a puncher's chance ...
Now they are a regular season empty calories team. Spurs nab 4th or 5th and probably lose in a tough 7 game series to someone ...

All because of a dirty contest, smh

[DAF86]

Was only partially playing but without that late contest, Maybe Kawhi is still a Spur and maybe they even win that series and abnother title. I still think state wins, but ....

No one can say for sure. Kawhi pre injury was the one player who could limit KD on offense amd Green could have at least helped limit Klay. no mtchup for steph still but Spurs had a a puncher's chance ...
Now they are a regular season empty calories team. Spurs nab 4th or 5th and probably lose in a tough 7 game series to someone ...

All because of a dirty contest, smh

Way to go on a tangent :lol

[DAF86]

I said 2nd best and he hit the biggest shots ...
But we all know Lebron led that team ...

Yeah well, OP said "PG...led teams".

[ambchang]

So curry didn’t lead the warriors? Argument can be made that Durant led the last two even though the entire GSW offense revolves around Curry’s shooting but you can’t possibly say anyone but curry led the warriors in 2015.

[DAF86]

So curry didn’t lead the warriors? Argument can be made that Durant led the last two even though the entire GSW offense revolves around Curry’s shooting but you can’t possibly say anyone but curry led the warriors in 2015.


Steph is an all-time talent.

More than "all-time talent", he's a "once in a lifetime cheat code", tbh.

[TD 21]

:lmao I wonder who this could be.



OP was/is right, tbh.
Except the history of the league is littered with C led teams winning championships (Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Malone, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Duncan), but I guess if it didn't happen before '15, it doesn't count. :wakeup


The question is, can it still win? '07 Duncan was the last 1st option big to win a championship (though in '14, in the most critical moments of the run, which were game 6 of the WCF, it was him turning back the clock that got them over the hump).

Similar to '08 Garnett, I think Davis could be the best player on a championship team, but I don't know if he could be the 1st option. He might need a Pierce.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao I wonder who this could be.



Except the history of the league is littered with C led teams winning championships (Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Malone, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Duncan), but I guess if it didn't happen before '15, it doesn't count. :wakeup


The question is, can it still win? '07 Duncan was the last 1st option big to win a championship (though in '14, in the most critical moments of the run, which were game 6 of the WCF, it was him turning back the clock that got them over the hump).

Similar to '08 Garnett, I think Davis could be the best player on a championship team, but I don't know if he could be the 1st option. He might need a Pierce.

Agreed.
And I stand by David would be perfect to lead a team in this era if you surrounded him with shooters.
No he is not KG at defending pnr but I think he could do as well as Capela was faster end to end and stronger ...
Ayton has the "look" of a young david but not sure he has his game but he is younger (a lot) entering the league we will see ...

League has shifted but if say Unibrow was surrounded by the right cast, he could win it too.
That is why Boston despite building ateam of guys like Ginostep talks about still is pursuing Davis.
no he is not a traditional center but its the only place to play him in modern NBA no coincidence NOLa got better when he moved to center last year ...

[ambchang]

More than "all-time talent", he's a "once in a lifetime cheat code", tbh.

STILL a Pg though wasn’t he? It’s like me saying lebron really isn’t a SF but a PG, which he really is.

[LkrFan]

:lmao Comparing Magic and LeBron to Shaun fucking Livingston

:lol

[ambchang]

Agreed.
And I stand by David would be perfect to lead a team in this era if you surrounded him with shooters.
No he is not KG at defending pnr but I think he could do as well as Capela was faster end to end and stronger ...
Ayton has the "look" of a young david but not sure he has his game but he is younger (a lot) entering the league we will see ...

League has shifted but if say Unibrow was surrounded by the right cast, he could win it too.
That is why Boston despite building ateam of guys like Ginostep talks about still is pursuing Davis.
no he is not a traditional center but its the only place to play him in modern NBA no coincidence NOLa got better when he moved to center last year ...

The last two championships proved supporting cast matters more than anything in :lol today’s nba.

As for Ayton. I believe players are either defenders or not. I can’t think of any horrible defenders who would become dominant defenders later on in their careers. I think at best Ayton will become an average defender but nowhere close to a Robinson, Hakeem or Garnett level player.

[DAF86]

So curry didn’t lead the warriors? Argument can be made that Durant led the last two even though the entire GSW offense revolves around Curry’s shooting but you can’t possibly say anyone but curry led the warriors in 2015.


:lmao I wonder who this could be.



Except the history of the league is littered with C led teams winning championships (Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Malone, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Duncan), but I guess if it didn't happen before '15, it doesn't count. :wakeup


The question is, can it still win? '07 Duncan was the last 1st option big to win a championship (though in '14, in the most critical moments of the run, which were game 6 of the WCF, it was him turning back the clock that got them over the hump).

Similar to '08 Garnett, I think Davis could be the best player on a championship team, but I don't know if he could be the 1st option. He might need a Pierce.

Well, duh! To me it's obvious he was talking about current NBA.

[Killakobe81]

The last two championships proved supporting cast matters more than anything in :lol today’s nba.

As for Ayton. I believe players are either defenders or not. I can’t think of any horrible defenders who would become dominant defenders later on in their careers. I think at best Ayton will become an average defender but nowhere close to a Robinson, Hakeem or Garnett level player.

I normally agree with that sentiment but only hold out hope for Ayton because those guys were 4 year collegians... Ayton is still young. John Salley for example wasn't a great defender in college but improved under Chuck Daly. Dwight also improved on defense after his rookie year... Duncan also improved from his rookie year. In college Duncan was a good defender but Camby was better on Defense because of his lengtg/mobility in a center of a defense IMHO Duncan was way better on offense. But in the pros Camby wasn't all that great and Duncan surpasses him in every possible way.

[lefty]

To be fair, Duncan was the real Finals MVP that year, Enrique just padded stats against Boobie Gibson :lol

[daslicer]

The PF-C position can be interchangeable. Hard for me to believe if the next Hakeem,Shaq,Duncan came out tomorrow that they would not at least win 1 championship in this current league.

[ambchang]

Well, duh! To me it's obvious he was talking about current NBA.

2015 not current enough?

[ambchang]

I normally agree with that sentiment but only hold out hope for Ayton because those guys were 4 year collegians... Ayton is still young. John Salley for example wasn't a great defender in college but improved under Chuck Daly. Dwight also improved on defense after his rookie year... Duncan also improved from his rookie year. In college Duncan was a good defender but Camby was better on Defense because of his lengtg/mobility in a center of a defense IMHO Duncan was way better on offense. But in the pros Camby wasn't all that great and Duncan surpasses him in every possible way.

Gimme a break. Camby was never better than duncan on d. You can claim camby was a better shot blocker but he was never a better defender. Sally improved but he went from average to good. Not bad to great. Ayton is bad.

[DAF86]

So curry didn’t lead the warriors? Argument can be made that Durant led the last two even though the entire GSW offense revolves around Curry’s shooting but you can’t possibly say anyone but curry led the warriors in 2015.


2015 not current enough?

I didn't mean to respond to you. Somehow I multi-quoted you and I can't edit posts with the new servers.

[DAF86]

Well, it happened again.

[lefty]

:lol Curry has never won Finals MVP

[Killakobe81]

Gimme a break. Camby was never better than duncan on d. You can claim camby was a better shot blocker but he was never a better defender. Sally improved but he went from average to good. Not bad to great. Ayton is bad.

In a college system being able to run a zone with his increased mobility and and length its absolutely possible that Camby was the better defender. As a UNC fan (they my 2nd fave team to UCLA) I saw plenty of Tim... And he always was great at positioning but absolutely got better under Pop and David. Camby was a great college defender he just didn't have the body to bang inside. But in college that didn't matter as much.

[ambchang]

In a college system being able to run a zone with his increased mobility and and length its absolutely possible that Camby was the better defender. As a UNC fan (they my 2nd fave team to UCLA) I saw plenty of Tim... And he always was great at positioning but absolutely got better under Pop and David. Camby was a great college defender he just didn't have the body to bang inside. But in college that didn't matter as much.

Camby was shotblocker. Not a defender. That said the point still stand. Duncan was very good and became great.

[Killakobe81]

Camby was shotblocker. Not a defender. That said the point still stand. Duncan was very good and became great.

You can play semantics he won a dpoty in the pros and was even more dominant on defense as a collegiate player. Not sure why this is some big point of contention did you actually watch Camby play at UMass Outside his FinaL Four run?
I could easily dismiss Duncan as just a rebounder not a defender at Wake. You think a lot of teams were posting Duncan up on the block in the ACC?! So the things Duncan were great at such as being a post anchor on defense had less value.
IN MY OPINION, mine Camby was the more impactful defensive player in colleg and it wasn't all shot blocking either!
!

[ambchang]

You can play semantics he won a dpoty in the pros and was even more dominant on defense as a collegiate player. Not sure why this is some big point of contention did you actually watch Camby play at UMass Outside his FinaL Four run?
I could easily dismiss Duncan as just a rebounder not a defender at Wake. You think a lot of teams were posting Duncan up on the block in the ACC?! So the things Duncan were great at such as being a post anchor on defense had less value.
IN MY OPINION, mine Camby was the more impactful defensive player in colleg and it wasn't all shot blocking either!
!

Camby winning DPoY was unjustified. He was like a Theo Ratliff type of player. Not saying he’s horrible but duncan was way better as a defensive anchor and him never winning DPoY Will remain a mystery to me.

Again, not saying camby was horrible, I just always felt he was very overrated as a defender.

[Killakobe81]

Camby winning DPoY was unjustified. He was like a Theo Ratliff type of player. Not saying he’s horrible but duncan was way better as a defensive anchor and him never winning DPoY Will remain a mystery to me.

Again, not saying camby was horrible, I just always felt he was very overrated as a defender.

Again I'm talking college, not pros.
Let's use another example...
Who do u think was the better college defender, Ewing or Hakeem?
In my opinion Ewing as the anchor of those Hoya teams was the best collegiate defender as a big I ever seen. Only David was close.
But just like Duncan/Hakeem was much better to me as pro defender... Where Duncan's smarts and Haeems athleticism mattered more. Camby was no Ewing in college but as the center of an aggressive zone he was incredibly impactful.

[TD 21]

Well, duh! To me it's obvious he was talking about current NBA.

Except this was written on 3/23/14, genius.

[DAF86]

So curry didn’t lead the warriors? Argument can be made that Durant led the last two even though the entire GSW offense revolves around Curry’s shooting but you can’t possibly say anyone but curry led the warriors in 2015.


Except this was written on 3/23/14, genius.

Well, 2014 is pretty current to me, tbh. Is 2014 not current enough for you? :lol

[DAF86]

I keep fucking quoting ambchang :lol

Well, actually I'm not. I don't know what the fuck is up. :lol

[ambchang]

Again I'm talking college, not pros.
Let's use another example...
Who do u think was the better college defender, Ewing or Hakeem?
In my opinion Ewing as the anchor of those Hoya teams was the best collegiate defender as a big I ever seen. Only David was close.
But just like Duncan/Hakeem was much better to me as pro defender... Where Duncan's smarts and Haeems athleticism mattered more. Camby was no Ewing in college but as the center of an aggressive zone he was incredibly impactful.

Ewing for sure. But camby was a product Of the system.

[TD 21]

Well, 2014 is pretty current to me, tbh. Is 2014 not current enough for you? :lol

The league changed or evolved significantly post '14.

[DAF86]

So curry didn’t lead the warriors? Argument can be made that Durant led the last two even though the entire GSW offense revolves around Curry’s shooting but you can’t possibly say anyone but curry led the warriors in 2015.


The league changed or evolved significantly post '14.

Well then, either the trend was already showing on '14, or the OP is a visionary mastermind. Which one do you see more plausible?

[ambchang]

Well then, either the trend was already showing on '14, or the OP is a visionary mastermind. Which one do you see more plausible?

Dude. Stop quoting me.

And the trend was showing in 14. Lebron wade josh lineup already did that for two years.

[TD 21]

Well then, either the trend was already showing on '14, or the OP is a visionary mastermind. Which one do you see more plausible?

Except they wrote it as if it were historically true.

[Gino-Step]

Well then, either the trend was already showing on '14, or the OP is a visionary mastermind. Which one do you see more plausible?

The latter.

[DAF86]

Dude. Stop quoting me.

And the trend was showing in 14. Lebron wade josh lineup already did that for two years.

If I knew how to stop I would do it, tbh. Blame it on timvp :lol

[Stabula]

:lol Curry has never won Finals MVP

Even during his MVP year when KD wasn't even on the roster yet :lol

[lebomb]

EDIT TITLE: PG + C together led teams do not win. As a combination traditional PG and a traditional C aren't the best ways to build a team.

My team

PG: Shaun Livingston
SG: Jimmy Butler
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Kawhi Leonard
C: Chris Bosh



GTFOOH...................... :lmao

My team would RAPE that bullshit team you put together.

Shaq....... Center lead
Magic....... PG lead
Timmy
Any other starter
Any other starter

[Walter Donovan]

The PF-C position can be interchangeable. Hard for me to believe if the next Hakeem,Shaq,Duncan came out tomorrow that they would not at least win 1 championship in this current league.

Anthony Davis ain’t winning a championship any time soon.

[lefty]

A healthy Livingston would average 25 pts 10 rbds and 13 assists in the 80s tbh

[lebomb]

A healthy Livingston would average 25 pts 10 rbds and 13 assists in the 80s tbh

Nope, he is to soft, and way to light to compete in the 80's. This nigga may tear up if brushed to hard in the NBA back then.

[daslicer]

Anthony Davis ain’t winning a championship any time soon.

Anthony Davis is not on Shaq-Hakeem-Duncan's level. So yes he's not going to win anytime soon.