miss this guy :cry

[hater]

never gonna see another one like him imo. If Bowen had been on the floor in game 6 of the Finals, he'd have kicked Ray Allen in the face before the shot was taken :cry

bP5preraY18

[hater]

:cry :cry :cry

aFvk4qHkT10

[lmbebo]

Imagine Kwahi and Bowen at the 2/3 spot... Offensively it would be difficult as neither excels as a 2, but defensively ..

[SpurPadre]

You know, for all the bitching and crying Allen and Carter did about him, Kobe actually always respected Bruce and his D and never once called him a dirty player. Kobe actually said he was the toughest one on one defender he's ever faced.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

Imagine Kwahi and Bowen at the 2/3 spot... Offensively it would be difficult as neither excels as a 2, but defensively ..

Good nba defense is mostly about team defense these days. Nobody can shut down another player one on one in this day and age.

[Stand]

My favorite Spur of all time. The guy was pure grit. I would have hated his guts though if he had played against us.

[PÒÓCH]

Is he died?

[superjames1992]

:cry

[Chinook]

Probably the most overrated Spur of all time. Then again, he was already old by the time he went to SA. Had the Spurs had him his whole career, who knows?

[Sean Cagney]

Probably the most overrated Spur of all time. Then again, he was already old by the time he went to SA. Had the Spurs had him his whole career, who knows?
Overrated? He would literally change a playoff series by switching over to a guy and making their life hell! 05 when he switched onto Billups is just one example of this here, plus the times when he would guard Nash and cut off the head of the snake as Pop would say. Most overrated hardly, one of the more valuable for three of our runs (Still remember his HUGE shot in game 5 against PHX in 07 too, clutch as hell). I don't see how you can say this, old or not when he got here he had some great years and was key to a few runs.

You could switch this guy onto positions 1-4 man, thats rare.

[Chinook]

Overrated? He would literally change a playoff series by switching over to a guy and making their life hell! 05 when he switched onto Billups is just one example of this here, plus the times when he would guard Nash and cut off the head of the snake as Pop would say. Most overrated hardly, one of the more valuable for three of our runs (Still remember his HUGE shot in game 5 against PHX in 07 too, clutch as hell). I don't see how you can say this, old or not when he got here he had some great years and was key to a few runs.

You could switch this guy onto positions 1-4 man, thats rare.

Yeah, and now the Spurs have two series-changing players who are both better offensively. The Spurs took out the Clippers in 2012 by switching Green on Paul in crunch time. Last WCSF, the New Two destroyed the Splash Bros. And are we really going to act like Bowen would have played James any better than Kawhi did in the Finals?

That's not to say Bowen wasn't good or even superior at his craft. But he was a man for a different league. I like the new Spurs defense which can get into players' heads without cheap tactics. The New Two just go in, shut down their men, get steals, protect the rim AND score points for 48 minutes and then call it a day.

I think replacing Bowen with the New Two in 2003-2007 probably yields more than three rings.

[Sean Cagney]

Yeah, and now the Spurs have two series-changing players who are both better offensively. The Spurs took out the Clippers in 2012 by switching Green on Paul in crunch time. Last WCSF, the New Two destroyed the Splash Bros. And are we really going to act like Bowen would have played James any better than Kawhi did in the Finals?

That's not to say Bowen wasn't good or even superior at his craft. But he was a man for a different league. I like the new Spurs defense which can get into players' heads without cheap tactics. The New Two just go in, shut down their men, get steals, protect the rim AND score points for 48 minutes and then call it a day.

I think replacing Bowen with the New Two in 2003-2007 probably yields more than three rings.

I am not going to argue his importance to this team during his years here because it's pretty much a no brainer he was alot more than numbers and a huge part of the Spurs and I am sorry if you don't agree but I am not changing my mind there.

I agree Green is key too, never said he was not a key in a few series and he is a big part of this team. I agree on a man for a different league too, he served his role at that time so he was not overrated for his role in that era he was in. Cheap tactics was called hard D in the 80's and most of the 90's etc. man, only later on did players whine and put about that there and Rules changed. Bowen was good for his time here and is a Spurs all time defender IMO, we needed him for the duties of guarding the hottest players out there 1-4 and he could deliver.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Chinook with the goods. love Bruce and apreciate everything he did for us but his D is overrated by fans. Kobe, Dirk, Tmac etc all had no problem droping 30 with bruce guarding them.

[TE]

Chinook with the goods. love Bruce and apreciate everything he did for us but his D is overrated by fans. Kobe, Dirk, Tmac etc all had no problem droping 30 with bruce guarding them.

Yeah:lol... I appreciate everything Bruce did for us but he's overrated by fans... :lmao at his jersey being retired

[Sean Cagney]

Yeah:lol... I appreciate everything Bruce did for us but he's overrated by fans... :lmao at his jersey being retired

I agree on the jersey retirement, but his D won series before or helped out alot, believe that.


Chinook with the goods. love Bruce and apreciate everything he did for us but his D is overrated by fans. Kobe, Dirk, Tmac etc all had no problem droping 30 with bruce guarding them.

alot of times they had to take a TON OF SHOTS Though, he made them work for their points, period.

[TE]

I agree on the jersey retirement, but his D won series before or helped out alot, believe that.

Somewhat true but don't forget there was a laterally quicker prime Tim Duncan anchoring the defense.

[Chinook]

I am not going to argue his importance to this team during his years here because it's pretty much a no brainer he was alot more than numbers and a huge part of the Spurs and I am sorry if you don't agree but I am not changing my mind there.

I agree Green is key too, never said he was not a key in a few series and he is a big part of this team. I agree on a man for a different league too, he served his role at that time so he was not overrated for his role in that era he was in. Cheap tactics was called hard D in the 80's and most of the 90's etc. man, only later on did players whine and put about that there and Rules changed. Bowen was good for his time here and is a Spurs all time defender IMO, we needed him for the duties of guarding the hottest players out there 1-4 and he could deliver.

I guess he could deliver by letting his guard score near his average but on lower efficiency.

I'm not saying Bowen's overrated because he wasn't good. But I do think his impact relative to what the New Two bring is overrated. I think hard defense is and always was overrated in comparison to good clean defense. That is very much my bias for growing up watching the NBA after 1999, though.

I look at Chicago and Indiana's defenders, and I have no idea why they are such hotheads. None of them can guard Lebron like Kawhi can, and Leonard doesn't have to say a word to do it. Green can shut down Curry and Paul without fouling out like Beverly seems to always do. Were players in Bowen's era really that much better that the only effective defense on them was to hit them or to slip your foot under them while they were in the air?

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on Bowen. He's clearly a Spur at heart and stays involved with the community. But I think people are failing to appreciate the defenders the Spurs have.

[Sean Cagney]

Somewhat true but don't forget there was a laterally quicker prime Tim Duncan anchoring the defense.

Lets not mention the GOAT PF ever man, you will always make me smile when mentioning that guy in his prime! He is my fave player ever.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

alot of times they had to take a TON OF SHOTS Though, he made them work for their points, period.
eh, yeah he made them work but most of the star players he guarded were still efficient
Take steve nash in the 05 wcf's for ex. Bruce guarded nash for the bulk of the series iirc and he still scored 23pts a game on 52% shooting while dishing out 10ast a game. Bruce made him work no doubt but he still got his

[Sean Cagney]

I guess he could deliver by letting his guard score near his average but on lower efficiency.

I'm not saying Bowen's overrated because he wasn't good. But I do think his impact relative to what the New Two bring is overrated. I think hard defense is and always was overrated in comparison to good clean defense. That is very much my bias for growing up watching the NBA after 1999, though.

I look at Chicago and Indiana's defenders, and I have no idea why they are such hotheads. None of them can guard Lebron like Kawhi can, and Leonard doesn't have to say a word to do it. Green can shut down Curry and Paul without fouling out like Beverly seems to always do. Were players in Bowen's era really that much better that the only effective defense on them was to hit them or to slip your foot under them while they were in the air?

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on Bowen. He's clearly a Spur at heart and stays involved with the community. But I think people are failing to appreciate the defenders the Spurs have.

I see what you are saying, I watched the Pistons in the 80's and 90's and Knicks as well when they had a tough team so yeah my idea of cheap and tough D might be different than yours is because they were allowed to play D then and YES their D was considered DIRTY but thats how the NBA was then (Bowen would fit in well then IMO). I agree on what you said mostly up there, can't argue because you speak some good stuff and appear to be a good fan of the game.
eh, yeah he made them work but most of the star players he guarded were still efficient
Take steve nash in the 05 wcf's for ex. Bruce guarded nash for the bulk of the series iirc and he still scored 23pts a game on 52% shooting while dishing out 10ast a game. Bruce made him work no doubt but he still got his

A great scorer is always going to get his! YOU JUST have to pray to slow him down and make life tough for him. A great O player though usually can get what he wants when he wants it but if you are an elite defender as I said you make life hell getting those numbers.

[Dancelot]

Could you imagine the bitchfest that would insue from westbrick if Bowen had ever guarded him?! Would have been a sight to see.

[Kidd K]

Lol, if Bowen was still young and on the team Allen wouldn't have even been in the game. Bowen might have shattered Allen's ankle back in game 2 or 3.



And are we really going to act like Bowen would have played James any better than Kawhi did in the Finals?

What?

2007 Finals, what happened when Bowen guarded LeBron again? Oh yeah. . .he pretty much had the worst series of his life.

So yes, as good as Kawhi (and Diaw, and Green) were, yes, Bowen would always make a defensive difference.

[Chinook]

Lol, if Bowen was still young and on the team Allen wouldn't have even been in the game. Bowen might have shattered Allen's ankle back in game 2 or 3.




What?

2007 Finals, what happened when Bowen guarded LeBron again? Oh yeah. . .he pretty much had the worst series of his life.

So yes, as good as Kawhi (and Diaw, and Green) were, yes, Bowen would always make a defensive difference.

You know, 22/7/7 is horrible...

Anyways, that was really early James. He's 10, 20, 50 times better now. I'm not saying James would have destroyed Bowen or anything. But trying to use 2007 stats to suggest Bowen was a superior Lebron defender is disingenuous.

[hater]

:lmao :lmao comparing one trick pony green with Bowen :lol

wow just wow

[Chinook]

:lmao :lmao comparing one trick pony green with Bowen :lol

wow just wow

How many tricks did Bowen have again?

[hater]

How many tricks did Bowen have again?

Unlimited amount. Top 5 perimeter defender in history.

1 trick pony dont even smell top 100

[Chinook]

Unlimited amount. Top 5 perimeter defender in history.

1 trick pony dont even smell top 100

Yeah, it was such epic defense letting players score their averages on him in big games.

But let me guess: That didn't matter because he kicked people in the face and stuck his feet under them.

He had even fewer tricks than Green, and a whole bag fewer than Kawhi.

[hater]

Yeah, it was such epic defense letting players score their averages on him in big games.

But let me guess: That didn't matter because he kicked people in the face and stuck his feet under them.

He had even fewer tricks than Green, and a whole bag fewer than Kawhi.

Green is merely a decent nba caliber defender how in the world you can compare that to Bowen goes beyond the realm of stupidiy.

you supplant Bown with Green and spurs dont smell champiinship. Most likely get swept by suns and mavericks

[Chinook]

Green is merely a decent nba caliber defender how in the world you can compare that to Bowen goes beyond the realm of stupidiy.

you supplant Bown with Green and spurs dont smell champiinship. Most likely get swept by suns and mavericks

Yeah, that's an absurdly baseless take that underscores how overrated Bowen is. If Green is merely average as a defender, then Bowen was much closer to mediocre than you want to admit.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Bruce Bowen had a range of Defensive RAPM from 1.5 (min) to 3.1 (max) between 2000 and 2008. That was among the top defensive ratings for wing defenders across the league. That compared well with someone like Andre Iguodala (around 1.3 - 6.3 in 2014 between 2004 and 2014).

Green has had his best year this season with a defensive rating of 2.2 in 2014. Otherwise, the best he has had is 1.3 in 2012 in limited minutes.

Leonard on the other hand is also still finding his feet as a premier defender. Last year, his rating was 1.4 and this year it has nudged closer to 1.0 and trending upwards.

Defensively, Green & Leonard still have ways to go before they become as good as Bowen was.

Offensively, though, both Green & Leonard are far better than Bowen ever was. Already.

[PingPong]

Praising a piece of shit of a dirty player...

[spurraider21]

i was never a big fan of bowen. he was a really good player for us, but i never liked the dirty antics

[Spur-Addict]

Ability aside, that Wally Szczerb kick to the face is classic :rollin

[tmtcsc]

Is he died?

He's now a talking head analyst for ESPN. So...yes.

[urunobili]

it's Manu's fault...

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Chinook with the goods. love Bruce and apreciate everything he did for us but his D is overrated by fans. Kobe, Dirk, Tmac etc all had no problem droping 30 with bruce guarding them.

You are talking about HOF caliber players. There was an analysis on ESPN before he retired of the Superstars he defended and their average stats and their stats against him over his career. Everyone of them shot a worse FG%, shot more FGs per game than their average, shot less Free Throws a game, and scored less PPG.

Bowens defense was hardly overrated. Its just HOF caliber players are HOF caliber players for a reason where they can take the best Defenders and make them look silly sometimes. Need I say Hakeem and Drob.

[Sybok]

Good nba defense is mostly about team defense these days. Nobody can shut down another player one on one in this day and age.

Pretty sure anyone could shut down Bonner just by appearing on the court within 30' of Bonner. He would pass the ball. Shutdown complete.

[DrSteffo]

You know, for all the bitching and crying Allen and Carter did about him, Kobe actually always respected Bruce and his D and never once called him a dirty player. Kobe actually said he was the toughest one on one defender he's ever faced.

Yes that's actually one thing that makes me respect Kobe just a little bit. Ray Allen on the other hand...sucks that he hit that shot. I loved Bowen and I think this team would benefit from a bit of nasty even if we have a couple of really good defenders.

[T Park]

This thread is evidence enough how much this forum is now overrun with people that know jackshit about basketball.

[Mikeanaro]

Bruce was the real patron del mal, I miss him too.

[jsandiego]

This thread is evidence enough how much this forum is now overrun with people that know jackshit about basketball.

[jsandiego]

http://www.48minutesofhell.com/bruce-bowen-and-the-evolution-of-the-box-score


Whatever the case, when Bowen finally hangs it up, the Spurs faithful will remember him as a game-changing cog in the championship machine. Bowen’s defense was dominant and indispensable, even if there are not measurements available to substantiate the claim. Last season this coffin was nailed shut for me during the Conference Semifinals against New Orleans. The Hornets had spanked the Spurs in 800 kinds of ways, winning by 18 and 19 to take a 2-0 series lead in the opening games. In those games, Peja Stojakavic torched the Spurs for 47 points (60 FG%, 63 3pt%). Bowen was guarding Chris Paul during each of those contests. For the remaining 5 games of the series, Popovich placed Bowen on Peja and the tide of the entire series turned. Over the balance of the series, Stojakavic scored only 43 points (45 FG%, 33 3pt%)—a drop off of nearly 15 points per game and a staggering shooting percentage shift of minus 15 and 30%, respectively. In the first two contests Stojakavic averaged 12 shot attempts per game as compared to only 7 in the back five. Not only did Bowen dramatically reduce his man’s shooting percentage, he played him so tight that it was difficult for Peja to simply find space from which to shoot.
Must not be a big contingent of SPURS faithful left on here.

[Proxy]

Bruce was a superior perimeter defender to anyone on the current roster. More clutch in his corner 3 and he was a great leader for the team. Asinine to claim his value to past teams was overstated, imho.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

You know, for all the bitching and crying Allen and Carter did about him, Kobe actually always respected Bruce and his D and never once called him a dirty player. Kobe actually said he was the toughest one on one defender he's ever faced.

Kobe didn't get injured 3x by the same dirty move lol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGJJHln4Co

[Chinook]

This thread is evidence enough how much this forum is now overrun with people that know jackshit about basketball.

I think comparing Green and Leonard to Bowen is worlds better than comparing Ayres to Rose.

[Baam]

What Bowen had was a superior mental game than anyone (but maybe Horry and SJax)... He wanted it more badly than anyone including Ginob and was ready to do about anything... The current Bowen is someone like Battier, who is always there when it gets dirty on the court but then again he's there as well to defend a Tim Duncan layup successfully in crunch time...

Green and Leonard may have other qualities but they don't have that.

[Baam]

Richard Sherman is the football version of Bowen, not the most talented but a borderline psychopath with a huge chip on his shoulder watching hours of film...

[Darius McCrary]

never gonna see another one like him imo. If Bowen had been on the floor in game 6 of the Finals, he'd have kicked Ray Allen in the face before the shot was taken :cry

bP5preraY18
Watching that live was sheer greatness. Bowen went HAM

[timtonymanu]

This thread is evidence enough how much this forum is now overrun with people that know jackshit about basketball.

Instead of being pompous like you always are, why not contribute some discussion? Or are you "too good" for this forum now because of your "OG" status even if a lot of your posts are as awful as a gnsf.

[Kidd K]

You know, 22/7/7 is horrible...

Anyways, that was really early James. He's 10, 20, 50 times better now. I'm not saying James would have destroyed Bowen or anything. But trying to use 2007 stats to suggest Bowen was a superior Lebron defender is disingenuous.

I see you're conveniently excluding how Bowen held LeBron to 35% shooting pretty much by himself when Bron shot under 35% in only TWO GAMES leading up to the Finals that playoffs. Not to mention 6 TO per game, something he did in only one playoff game prior to the Finals that year.

21.5 PPG isn't shit when you're shooting 35%. In fact its a negative

Same for Bron's 6.75 APG being garbage because he was turning it over 6x per game, Jeremy Lin style.

It's a joke if you think that isn't a horrible series for a guy who was beasting all postseason up til then. Bowen put him on lockdown. And it wasn't a three man effort like it was last year when we kept cycling Green, Leonard, and Diaw on him.

You're vastly undercutting what Bowen did

[Chinook]

I see you're conveniently excluding how Bowen held LeBron to 35% shooting pretty much by himself when Bron shot under 35% in only TWO GAMES leading up to the Finals that playoffs. Not to mention 6 TO per game, something he did in only one playoff game prior to the Finals that year.

21.5 PPG isn't shit when you're shooting 35%. In fact its a negative

Same for Bron's 6.75 APG being garbage because he was turning it over 6x per game, Jeremy Lin style.

It's a joke if you think that isn't a horrible series for a guy who was beasting all postseason up til then. Bowen put him on lockdown. And it wasn't a three man effort like it was last year when we kept cycling Green, Leonard, and Diaw on him.

You're vastly undercutting what Bowen did

I'm not. But that James and this one aren't even close to the same. This James is fat superior to anyone Bowen ever had to guard. The idea that Bowen was a better Lebron stopper when even at his height Bowen simply slowed players down is one I simply don't subscribe to.

And who the hell was guarding James in those other games he shot poorly? Clearly other players did great jobs on James as well.

[gospursgojas]

For those saying great players still put up avgs on Bruce...yes, true but they took double the attempts to accomplish. This means more possessions to get the same amount of individual pts for 1 player but less for the opposing team to score more than spurs in general.

This is where his value is under-rated.

[Sean Cagney]

You are talking about HOF caliber players. There was an analysis on ESPN before he retired of the Superstars he defended and their average stats and their stats against him over his career. Everyone of them shot a worse FG%, shot more FGs per game than their average, shot less Free Throws a game, and scored less PPG.

Bowens defense was hardly overrated. Its just HOF caliber players are HOF caliber players for a reason where they can take the best Defenders and make them look silly sometimes. Need I say Hakeem and Drob.
This was the point I tried to make earlier, he made the others shoot more shots and a lower % than they usually do and made them work hard for their points! They scored but as you said less and on more attempts.

[Sean Cagney]

What Bowen had was a superior mental game than anyone (but maybe Horry and SJax)... He wanted it more badly than anyone including Ginob and was ready to do about anything... The current Bowen is someone like Battier, who is always there when it gets dirty on the court but then again he's there as well to defend a Tim Duncan layup successfully in crunch time...

Green and Leonard may have other qualities but they don't have that.
I agree with your points. Tim missed that one himself though it was not well guarded :( Battier I agree with you on though.

I'm not. But that James and this one aren't even close to the same. This James is fat superior to anyone Bowen ever had to guard. The idea that Bowen was a better Lebron stopper when even at his height Bowen simply slowed players down is one I simply don't subscribe to.

And who the hell was guarding James in those other games he shot poorly? Clearly other players did great jobs on James as well.

Don't buy into the media hype about Lebron he is not far better than Kobe in his prime by any means. He is great though and will be an all time great, but he is not that far ahead of Kobe in his prime.

[Kidd K]

I'm not. But that James and this one aren't even close to the same. This James is fat superior to anyone Bowen ever had to guard. The idea that Bowen was a better Lebron stopper when even at his height Bowen simply slowed players down is one I simply don't subscribe to.

And who the hell was guarding James in those other games he shot poorly? Clearly other players did great jobs on James as well.

Which other games? That 2007 postseason you mean? LeBron did significantly better against everyone else 'til the Finals that year. If you want me to post his stats from that postseason before the Finals and show you how much they dropped off I will. Just ask.

I already agreed that LeBron is better now than he was then.

You don't need to be super tall to guard LeBron. Half the time our guys were just sagging of him and daring him to shoot jumpers. Bowen didn't need to sag off to keep guys I front. In fact if LeBron ever gave up the ball odds were he wasn't getting it back either.

[Skull-1]

never gonna see another one like him imo. If Bowen had been on the floor in game 6 of the Finals, he'd have kicked Ray Allen in the face before the shot was taken :cry

bP5preraY18

This. My fav player of all time...

[Chinook]

Which other games? That 2007 postseason you mean? LeBron did significantly better against everyone else 'til the Finals that year. If you want me to post his stats from that postseason before the Finals and show you how much they dropped off I will. Just ask.

I already agreed that LeBron is better now than he was then.

You don't need to be super tall to guard LeBron. Half the time our guys were just sagging of him and daring him to shoot jumpers. Bowen didn't need to sag off to keep guys I front. In fact if LeBron ever gave up the ball odds were he wasn't getting it back either.

What? I said nothing about his height. I was referring to the two other games James shot under 35 percent outside the 07 Finals. Clearly he had other bad games.

And James isn't just better. He's on another level. He's much more efficient and can score from anywhere on the floor. Back then je was still learning how to hit threes, and he definitely wasn't the post player he is now. Bowen shut down the 2007 equivalent of Paul George (better than George, but a worse shooter). 2013 James is like Karl Malone with elite guard skills. It's not even close.

[DPG21920]

I think comparing Green and Leonard to Bowen is worlds better than comparing Ayres to Rose.

*drops mic*

[Kidd K]

What? I said nothing about his height. I was referring to the two other games James shot under 35 percent outside the 07 Finals. Clearly he had other bad games.

And James isn't just better. He's on another level. He's much more efficient and can score from anywhere on the floor. Back then je was still learning how to hit threes, and he definitely wasn't the post player he is now. Bowen shut down the 2007 equivalent of Paul George (better than George, but a worse shooter). 2013 James is like Karl Malone with elite guard skills. It's not even close.

It appears you've missed the point. LeBron shot at or under the AVERAGE percent he shot against Bowen in only 2 of 16 games. That's 12% of the time a team (or luck) managed to do what Bowen did on average for a whole series by himself on the biggest stage the NBA has to offer. Bron's stats were down across the board in every category. PPG, FG%, FTAs, APG, RPG, and way more turnovers.

We have already established that LeBron is better than he was twice now and I have also agreed with that obvious assessment twice now. We didn't need to rehash it a third time and we don't need to a 4th time either in case that's going to be 75% of your next reply too. We also ran three players at him, not just one.

[Chinook]

It appears you've missed the point. LeBron shot at or under the AVERAGE percent he shot against Bowen in only 2 of 16 games. That's 12% of the time a team (or luck) managed to do what Bowen did on average for a whole series by himself on the biggest stage the NBA has to offer. Bron's stats were down across the board in every category. PPG, FG%, FTAs, APG, RPG, and way more turnovers.

We have already established that LeBron is better than he was twice now and I have also agreed with that obvious assessment twice now. We didn't need to rehash it a third time and we don't need to a 4th time either in case that's going to be 75% of your next reply too. We also ran three players at him, not just one.

Yes, we need to keep talking about it, because you keep missing the point. I said that Leonard defended James in the Finals as well as anyone could (including Bowen). You keep bringing up 07, which was an admirable job by Bowen. But those were two different Jameses, to the extent they aren't even comparable. Bringing up the difference between 07 and 13 James isn't to diminish Bowen's accomplishment. Rather it is to establish how much harder this assignment was than the first one.

So to take away the confusion, I believe having Bowen instead of Leonard during last year's Finals would not have yielded better defense on James. We can agree to disagree on that. I think it's even harder to argue that when you add in Leonard's rebounding and scoring that Bowen would have been an upgrade to Kawhi. But to each their own.

As for the rest of your post, I simply meant that James shooting under 35 percent against other teams shows there were other times his shot failed him during that run. That doesn't mean I think other teams had a defensive stoppers better than Bowen. I also feel that shows how big of a flaw James' outside shooting was back then. With an elite rim-protector like Late-Prime Duncan to take away drives, Bowen's job was a lot easier than you're implying.

[tesseractive]

I'm not saying Bowen's overrated because he wasn't good. But I do think his impact relative to what the New Two bring is overrated. I think hard defense is and always was overrated in comparison to good clean defense. That is very much my bias for growing up watching the NBA after 1999, though.


I'm not going to try to compare anyone's merits, but don't forget all the rule changes that have changed the game. Eliminating hand checking and replacing the illegal defense rule each had a huge impact on how defense was played. I would say that hard defense was absolutely the right defense in the hand checking era, and the illegal defense rule (and the era of isolation plays that it led to) made it even more crucial to use every trick in the book to limit the efficiency of a star player you're defending. Likewise, putting Bowen out in the corner back then was far enough ahead of the curve in identifying the importance of "3 and D" players that he didn't really hurt the offense the way he would limit the current Spurs team.

I think the current era has much more compelling basketball, but Bowen was perfect for his era.

[T Park]

I think comparing Green and Leonard to Bowen is worlds better than comparing Ayres to Rose.

Its not, but keep hanging onto that retardation.

[Chinook]

Its not, but keep hanging onto that retardation.

Sat on that gem for a whole day, did you?

[rudwick]

I forget, how many championships have we won since Bruce was traded?

[Skull-1]

I forget, how many championships have we won since Bruce was traded?


ZERO.

Defense wins championships. Bowen set the tone.

[Kidd K]

Yes, we need to keep talking about it, because you keep missing the point. I said that Leonard defended James in the Finals as well as anyone could (including Bowen). You keep bringing up 07, which was an admirable job by Bowen. But those were two different Jameses, to the extent they aren't even comparable. Bringing up the difference between 07 and 13 James isn't to diminish Bowen's accomplishment. Rather it is to establish how much harder this assignment was than the first one.

So to take away the confusion, I believe having Bowen instead of Leonard during last year's Finals would not have yielded better defense on James. We can agree to disagree on that. I think it's even harder to argue that when you add in Leonard's rebounding and scoring that Bowen would have been an upgrade to Kawhi. But to each their own.

As for the rest of your post, I simply meant that James shooting under 35 percent against other teams shows there were other times his shot failed him during that run. That doesn't mean I think other teams had a defensive stoppers better than Bowen. I also feel that shows how big of a flaw James' outside shooting was back then. With an elite rim-protector like Late-Prime Duncan to take away drives, Bowen's job was a lot easier than you're implying.

The fact that James is a better shooter now is not that relevant to Kawhi vs Bowen because Kawhi did not guard LeBron that much. We cycled Diaw and Green on him just as often. I remember seeing the stat of what LeBron shot when guarded by Leonard. It was in like game 5 or 6 and he didn't even have that many attempts on him. Green and Diaw guarded him more than Kawhi did.

Bowen did it by himself. The point is it's far less impressive when you're only doing it in VERY limited duty. Did Kawhi do a good job? Yes. He also rebounded and scored well. Was he more impressive defensively against James as Bowen was? Fuck no. He only guarded him like 25% of the time.

Limited duty vs soloing him for a whole series. You keep ignorning that fact.


And as for that "other teams managed it too", yes, only 12% of the time. At least one of which could just be a typical off shooting night. Other teams couldn't replicate it for a series or even more than one game.

[DrSteffo]

Yeah this is just too stupid. Bowen was a great defender and a crucial part of the Spurs championships regardless of player X improvement since then. Also, it is quite possible that Kawhi Leonard is a very good defender AND that Bowen was a great defender.

[weebo]

Bowen was able to guard players 1-4 effectively. You can't say the same for KL and DG because they either lack the size or the quickness to guard all four spots.

[dunkman]

The Spurs were the big 4 during the 03, 05 and 07 title runs. Bowen seldom missed games, but when he did, the Spurs didn't look the same. It's not surprise the defense fell off the cliff once Bowen lost a step. At the time, Pop and RC thought they were to replace Bowen with a SF that, while inferior on defense, has offensive game too. It was supoused to be RJ. But the experiment failed miserably. Btw, the only players that didn't have problems with Bowen's defense were Dirk and 'Melo. Dirk was too tall and 'Melo too quick and strong.

The Spurs returned to elite with the addition of Green, Kawhi and Diaw, since then the traditional Spurs defense recovered.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

:lol people saying bruce could guard power forwards. the only 4 bruce used to guard was dirk. and dirk used to shit on him on the reg.

example 06 west semi finals, dirk scored 27 pts per game on 52 percent shooting for the series.

[Chinook]

:lol people saying bruce could guard power forwards. the only 4 bruce used to guard was dirk. and dirk used to shit on him on the reg.

example 06 west semi finals, dirk scored 27 pts per game on 52 percent shooting for the series.

Clearly you just don't get the value of good hard (dirty) defense.

[superjames1992]

Bowen = The Truth.

0 championships since he retired, tbh...... :cry

[Skull-1]

The Spurs were the big 4 during the 03, 05 and 07 title runs. Bowen seldom missed games, but when he did, the Spurs didn't look the same. It's not surprise the defense fell off the cliff once Bowen lost a step. At the time, Pop and RC thought they were to replace Bowen with a SF that, while inferior on defense, has offensive game too. It was supoused to be RJ. But the experiment failed miserably. Btw, the only players that didn't have problems with Bowen's defense were Dirk and 'Melo. Dirk was too tall and 'Melo too quick and strong.

The Spurs returned to elite with the addition of Green, Kawhi and Diaw, since then the traditional Spurs defense recovered.

Never lost a step to my eyes...

[Sean Cagney]

Bowen was able to guard players 1-4 effectively. You can't say the same for KL and DG because they either lack the size or the quickness to guard all four spots.
I said this as well earlier on in this thread but still got some Bowen hate in here even though it was true! He was truly special at the game of defense! He could lock down 1-4 and that is VERY Rare in this game.
The Spurs were the big 4 during the 03, 05 and 07 title runs. Bowen seldom missed games, but when he did, the Spurs didn't look the same. It's not surprise the defense fell off the cliff once Bowen lost a step. At the time, Pop and RC thought they were to replace Bowen with a SF that, while inferior on defense, has offensive game too. It was supoused to be RJ. But the experiment failed miserably. Btw, the only players that didn't have problems with Bowen's defense were Dirk and 'Melo. Dirk was too tall and 'Melo too quick and strong.

The Spurs returned to elite with the addition of Green, Kawhi and Diaw, since then the traditional Spurs defense recovered.Bowen guarded Dirk in that game 5 or 6 block in 06 though and even guarded him some in that series to some success! He could not guard him full time but in spots he could and won a game with a block in Dirk I remember. Melo never beat us in a series back with the Nugz and he even struggled as well in one of them if I remember correct when Ivy showed up (He failed to fully join Iverson), who guarded him then? I am sure Bowen played some D on Melo then too.

[Chinook]

The fact that James is a better shooter now is not that relevant to Kawhi vs Bowen because Kawhi did not guard LeBron that much. We cycled Diaw and Green on him just as often. I remember seeing the stat of what LeBron shot when guarded by Leonard. It was in like game 5 or 6 and he didn't even have that many attempts on him. Green and Diaw guarded him more than Kawhi did.

Bowen did it by himself. The point is it's far less impressive when you're only doing it in VERY limited duty. Did Kawhi do a good job? Yes. He also rebounded and scored well. Was he more impressive defensively against James as Bowen was? Fuck no. He only guarded him like 25% of the time.

Limited duty vs soloing him for a whole series. You keep ignorning that fact.


And as for that "other teams managed it too", yes, only 12% of the time. At least one of which could just be a typical off shooting night. Other teams couldn't replicate it for a series or even more than one game.

You forgot the Finals already. Kawhi guarded James the majority of the time. James just didn't shoot very much with Kawhi on him. Seriously, who else do you think Leonard was guarding? Diaw and Green guarded James when Kawhi was out, and Green picked him up in transition. But by no means should you assert Leonard was anything but the primary James defender.

Anyway, how disingenuous can you get? James didn't shoot well in the 07 playoffs at all. In fact, he shot 27 percent from three feet out to 16 feet, 34 percent on long twos and 28 percent from three. He shot under 40 percent in 11 of his 20 games. He shot under 37 percent in nine of those (only two of which came against Bowen).

Rather than having a superlative defensive series (going by FG% allowed versus that of other teams), Bruce had an awesome Game 1, a poor Game 2, a solid Game 3 and a strong Game 4. Nothing to sneeze at, but not too much better than the job the Nets did (held him under .400 in four of the six games) and Detroit (three of six). Hell, he even shot a poor 37 percent twice against Washington. It's clear he was just a poor shooter who managed to get hot a couple of times.

Bowen deserves credit for iron-manning that series. But looking at the turnover numbers, it's clear he had plenty of help from his teammates protecting the rim, playing passing lanes, drawing charges and digging in. Even if 2007 was still the Iso Era, it took a village to stop James. The Spurs bigs deserve a lot more credit than you're giving them for clogging the paint and forcing James to shoot contested jump shots.

[Baam]

I think you could even look at prime Bowen-SJax vs Green-Kawhi... Then it gets even harder to say who is better... SJax series with the Warriors vs Dirk is probably the best defensive achievement of any of them...

Will Kawhi ever shut down Anthony Davis over the course of a series in his career? Cause thats what SJax did pretty much...

Green has been awesome last year yet he guarded a tosb Wade poorly in the Finals... Will he ever get his Jersey retired like Bowen? We lost with Green running out of ammo the last 2 years, he has been awesome overall yet he's starting to look like quite the front-runner...

Bowen, SJax and even Horry have done things that Green Kawhi and Boris haven't and may never do...

Now you're not unlucky that many years in a row, if they don't win as a first seed this year then this team really lacked something, the mental toughness of quite a few players is really in question... And that's were Bowen and SJax where arguably the strongest...

That said softer Pop and T-Vag are mostly responsible imo for under achieving in the post season the last few years, but Green Kawhi and even Boris still can't touch Bowen SJax and Horry in that regard and if they did the result could have been different...

[Baam]

And I also have zero doubt that Neal a better playoff performer/more tough mentally than Beli-no-D

[diego]

It seems you forgot the finals too. Yes Leonard defended lebron well, considering lebrons ability and Leonard's age... But it was the spurs team D that took away passing lanes and dared lebron to shoot. You can't argue that it was anything but luck that he shot so terribly for the first 6 games, he was wide open time and again. Game 7 lebron found his shot and that was that.

As for Bowen, how old was he in 2007? How many pounds did he give up on lebron? Do you think Leonard's tendinitis will allow him to defend younger bigger players effectively at age 35? (I'm on my cell can't check exactly). Its a fact that Bowen won us many series with his defense. Did he depend on Timmy holding down the rim and open shots from the big 3? Sure, he was a role player, but he was a great one And clutch too. Green and leonard depend on the same. The dirtiness is being way overrated, tell me who he injured, how many times he fouled out or got ejected. Adding all 3 instances up you still don't need more than one hand to count.

Leonard and green especially are overrated on defense too, in green's case offense as well. Green can barely dribble or finish at the rim, don't see how that makes him much better than Bowen on offense. Leonard has a chance to be the better player but still hasn't produced what Bruce has, one great finals series which we lost under a lebron barrage doesn't trump Bowen guarding the other teams best player literally night in and night out ( to the tune of 3 rings).

[Chinook]

It seems you forgot the finals too. Yes Leonard defended lebron well, considering lebrons ability and Leonard's age... But it was the spurs team D that took away passing lanes and dared lebron to shoot. You can't argue that it was anything but luck that he shot so terribly for the first 6 games, he was wide open time and again. Game 7 lebron found his shot and that was that.

As for Bowen, how old was he in 2007? How many pounds did he give up on lebron? Do you think Leonard's tendinitis will allow him to defend younger bigger players effectively at age 35? (I'm on my cell can't check exactly). Its a fact that Bowen won us many series with his defense. Did he depend on Timmy holding down the rim and open shots from the big 3? Sure, he was a role player, but he was a great one And clutch too. Green and leonard depend on the same. The dirtiness is being way overrated, tell me who he injured, how many times he fouled out or got ejected. Adding all 3 instances up you still don't need more than one hand to count.

Leonard and green especially are overrated on defense too, in green's case offense as well. Green can barely dribble or finish at the rim, don't see how that makes him much better than Bowen on offense. Leonard has a chance to be the better player but still hasn't produced what Bruce has, one great finals series which we lost under a lebron barrage doesn't trump Bowen guarding the other teams best player literally night in and night out ( to the tune of 3 rings).

You need to read before posting. We all know Pop gameplanned to limit James. But Kidd K argued thay Kawhi only guarded James about a quarter of the time, and that's not true. (By the way, I have nothing against Kidd K as a poster. I just disagree with him here.)

The only reason we're stuck on the 07 Finals is Kidd K taking exception to me saying Kawhi guarded James as well as possible. So saying things like Bowen was old don't tilt the discussion in his favor. Lebron was young in 2007 and in his GOAT prime six years later. Leonard and Green were in their first Finals, and Kawhi was only 22 years old.

As I said up top, it took a village to defend James in both cases, but 07 took less effort (in my opinion) because James was significantly worse and the village was at least just a strong. You disagree, fine. We can leave it at that.

[Sean Cagney]

I think you could even look at prime Bowen-SJax vs Green-Kawhi... Then it gets even harder to say who is better... SJax series with the Warriors vs Dirk is probably the best defensive achievement of any of them...

Will Kawhi ever shut down Anthony Davis over the course of a series in his career? Cause thats what SJax did pretty much...

Green has been awesome last year yet he guarded a tosb Wade poorly in the Finals... Will he ever get his Jersey retired like Bowen? We lost with Green running out of ammo the last 2 years, he has been awesome overall yet he's starting to look like quite the front-runner...

Bowen, SJax and even Horry have done things that Green Kawhi and Boris haven't and may never do...

Now you're not unlucky that many years in a row, if they don't win as a first seed this year then this team really lacked something, the mental toughness of quite a few players is really in question... And that's were Bowen and SJax where arguably the strongest...

That said softer Pop and T-Vag are mostly responsible imo for under achieving in the post season the last few years, but Green Kawhi and even Boris still can't touch Bowen SJax and Horry in that regard and if they did the result could have been different...

Who the hell do you keep calling T Vag? Your own little nickname? Leonard played his ass off in the finals last year when others failed to show up, especially game 6 and 7. Green set a finals record for threes last year so that is not showing up?
And I also have zero doubt that Neal a better playoff performer/more tough mentally than Beli-no-D

You say NO D and have the nerve to praise Neal? I would wait and see on this, Beli was pretty damn good last year against the Nets and Neal after that game 5 disapeared along with Green and others when it got tough, period.

[cd021]

Green is merely a decent nba caliber defender how in the world you can compare that to Bowen goes beyond the realm of stupidiy.

you supplant Bown with Green and spurs dont smell champiinship. Most likely get swept by suns and mavericks

Steph Curry was shut down by Green and Green did a very good job on Lebron. Maybe the best defender in the NBA at guarding Westbrook, who has some of his worst games against Green and the Spurs (including a 6 point game where he needed 18 shots to get that)

a 6'6 guard that is both long and quick enough to cover PGs- SFs is far from decent.

Bowen was a great corner shooter but Green is lethal from any where behind the arc and isn't the spot up shooter he gets type cast as. He can hit transition 3's that he dribbles into. Bowen couldn't fit into our offensive attack with such a limited skill set. He wouldn't have even sniffed the Finals 3pt mark.

[cd021]

And I also have zero doubt that Neal a better playoff performer/more tough mentally than Beli-no-D

Neal needs help defense to cover a chair. Just awful defensively, plus he's so short at the 2 guard that his size (or lack there of) can make him even more of a likability. Neal's net rating was -7. Beli's is +11. Neal's post season resume outside of the game tying 3 against Memphis and him shooting the lights out in game 3 of the Finals. Its not likely Beli doesn't have a resume he's been on bad teams for the most part (been to the post season twice in 6 full seasons).

Belinelli at least can be hidden defensively on some SGs or SFs (like Butler or Sef for OKC)

[cd021]

Bowen = The Truth.

0 championships since he retired, tbh...... :cry

Thats less to due with him and more to do with the Spurs needing to get younger and retool. That Spurs title team was riddled with 33+ Y.O players (Finley, Barry, Bowen, Horry,) and had 9 players over the age of 30.

Fast forward to now and 9 of our 14 players are under the age of 30. Just 3 are over the age of 33 (Duncan, Manu and Bonner) only two of them are in the rotation and they are 1st and 2nd on the team in P.E.R..

[cd021]

I think you could even look at prime Bowen-SJax vs Green-Kawhi... Then it gets even harder to say who is better... SJax series with the Warriors vs Dirk is probably the best defensive achievement of any of them...

Will Kawhi ever shut down Anthony Davis over the course of a series in his career? Cause thats what SJax did pretty much...

Green has been awesome last year yet he guarded a tosb Wade poorly in the Finals... Will he ever get his Jersey retired like Bowen? We lost with Green running out of ammo the last 2 years, he has been awesome overall yet he's starting to look like quite the front-runner...

Bowen, SJax and even Horry have done things that Green Kawhi and Boris haven't and may never do...

Now you're not unlucky that many years in a row, if they don't win as a first seed this year then this team really lacked something, the mental toughness of quite a few players is really in question... And that's were Bowen and SJax where arguably the strongest...

That said softer Pop and T-Vag are mostly responsible imo for under achieving in the post season the last few years, but Green Kawhi and even Boris still can't touch Bowen SJax and Horry in that regard and if they did the result could have been different...

Boris easily has a higher role player ceiling than Horry did. It depends of course whether we win a championship but he is already one of the better role players the Spurs have had in the Duncan era. Very few players can guard 3 positions, score effectively in the post and space the floor along with the occasional drive to the rim.

I don't see why Kawhi not being able to guard a freak of nature like AD makes him lesser than. AD is 6'11, long and super athletic. Leonard is 6'7, long and a decent athlete.

Your Splitter commentary has been pretty silly. He came up big against Memphis and had a couple of nice games against GSW en route to the Finals. He was a big reason why our defense jumped from 13th to top 5 in span of a couple of seasons with the (mostly) the same personnel.


Splitter give Pop another rim protector, when Duncan heads to the bench Splitter can come in and the defense won't fall apart. His ability to score off P&Rs and draw fouls (along with his passing) makes him valuable on the offensive end. He actually has the 2nd best Net Rtg of +15 (behind Leonard)

[hater]

Steph Curry was shut down by Green and Green did a very good job on Lebron. Maybe the best defender in the NBA at guarding Westbrook, who has some of his worst games against Green and the Spurs (including a 6 point game where he needed 18 shots to get that)

a 6'6 guard that is both long and quick enough to cover PGs- SFs is far from decent.

Bowen was a great corner shooter but Green is lethal from any where behind the arc and isn't the spot up shooter he gets type cast as. He can hit transition 3's that he dribbles into. Bowen couldn't fit into our offensive attack with such a limited skill set. He wouldn't have even sniffed the Finals 3pt mark.

Danny Green is lethal when he's hot, which is only about 50% of the time. The other 50% he is awful. Bowen was one of the most consistent 3pt shooters in the history of the Spurs.

and my point stands, Danny cannot hold Bowen's jockstrap when it comes to 1-1 defense. Bowen would have raped little elian gonzales of the Warriors :lmao