All Length & Mobility Lineups (i.e. Ginobili Green Leonard Diaw Daye Splitter Cojo)

[Gino-Step]

As I wrote downstairs, the NBA is turning into an all length game. Because teams are focused on scoring around the hoop and around the 3 point line, there are now two distinct zones that are advantageous to score from. If a 2pt shot is a 2pt shot, why shoot from 21 ft when you can shoot from 1 ft right near the rim? And similarly if a 3pt shot is a 3pt shot, why shoot from 35ft when you can shoot from 23 ft right near the line?

Because the two distinct scoring zones are so far away from each other, defences need to cover a large amount of the court. In the old NBA where 3 pointers didn't exist or weren't shot as much cause players weren't good enough at it, you cover the hoop, then the area nearest to the hoop, then a little bit farther to midrange. You didn't need as much combination of length & mobility to cover.

Also, because of the pick and roll, teams can now force any defender to have to guard the 3 point line. Golden State did this to us by having Duncan's man set the pick up top every play and Curry either coming off of it with daylight to shoot or be able to blow by Duncan for layup or if you help, kicking to corner for 3. Spurs do this to other teams very well with Parker-Duncan & kicking to Manu, Kawhi, Green and also Manu-Splitter & kicking to Patty, Belli, Kawhi.

Teams are doing P&R and Corner threes more often than ever. If you use a bigger guard to play someone like Curry, you often have a small guard like Parker being posted by a Klay Thompson.

Pop and RC know this is the way of the league. They've adjusted the system to best suit this game. The moves they've made has been entirely in this direction. Trading for Kawhi. Trading for Daye. Signing Diaw. Drafting Jean-Charles Livio. Drafting Davis Bertans. Trying to sign Andrei Kirilenko. The future of the league is 5 guys with length and mobility with an ideal lineup being something like Michael Carter-Williams - Danny Green - Klay Thompson - Kawhi Leonard - Tiago Splitter. Defensively, have 5 guys to switch all P&R to not give up the top of the key 3pt shot or the roll or the pop or the layup or the corner 3 or be abused in the post. Offensively, all length and mobility teams have superior spacing and ball movement and shooting with the ability to expose any mismatches if the defending Center is too slow to keep up or if the defending Point Guard is too small to guard the post.

Our defence has improved because we now have 4 new players Green Kawhi Diaw and Splitter who can guard all areas of the court with sufficient mobility and length to stick to any guard or big relatively well. Out of respect for Parker and Duncan, they've held their roles despite the Spurs being better this year with them off the court. Defensively, Duncan gets destroyed on the P&R guarding guards (He's 37 it's not his fault) and Parker gets destroyed being posted by bigger SG's because we use Green / Kawhi on other teams PG's. Offensively, Parker has tried to get a 3 point shot while Duncan has also tried to stretch the floor to suit the Spurs attack focusing on spacing.

I love where Pop and RC have taken this team and their understanding of where the NBA is headed. Today Pop tried a lineup of Cojo Daye Diaw Ayres Baynes. We are more than set for Duncan, Parker, and Manu to depart (I would be really sad of course on that day). But it's not that our bench has stepped up, it's that the Spurs are now good on their own without these 3. Perhaps not top 3, but definitely top 8 in the league.

Not bad. Not bad.

[ElNono]

cliff notes, anyone?

[Mel_13]

cliff notes, anyone?

The Spurs would be better without Tim and Tony

[ElNono]

The Spurs would be better without Tim and Tony

:rolleyes

thanks :tu

[spurraider21]

Gino-step wasn't always full retard was he?

[Gino-Step]

The Spurs would be better without Tim and Tony

Cliff notes: Manu > Parker and Duncan in their 3 championships :)

[Aztecfan03]

:sleep

[Aztecfan03]

Gino-step wasn't always full retard was he?

i don't know if i ever saw any of his posts before this anti-pg/anti-center bs.

[Man In Black]

Curious... there are 2 sides of the court. On the O Side, doesn't the Spurs efficiency with Tony and Tim OUTWEIGHS any disadvantage that you think you cite on the D side of the court. Plus I call BS on this since Tim just this past season, got ALL-NBA 1st Team and All-NBA D 2nd Team.

You can't call Austin Daye anything more than Journeyman or serviceable. Could he grow? Perhaps. It's a good system for his skills. But that's as far as I go for agreement.

[Brazil]

Cliff notes: Manu > Parker and Duncan in their 3 championships :)

:lmao

[Seventyniner]

The Spurs would be better without Tim and Tony

And Nellie-ball is the future.

[Spursfanfromafar]

And Nellie-ball is the future.

Ha. I got the same feeling after reading the "piece". Basically, the Gol_en State Warriors of the 2000s is the future.

[Mel_13]

Gino-step wasn't always full retard was he?


Cliff notes: Manu > Parker and Duncan in their 3 championships :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo

[cd021]

Curious... there are 2 sides of the court. On the O Side, doesn't the Spurs efficiency with Tony and Tim OUTWEIGHS any disadvantage that you think you cite on the D side of the court. Plus I call BS on this since Tim just this past season, got ALL-NBA 1st Team and All-NBA D 2nd Team.

You can't call Austin Daye anything more than Journeyman or serviceable. Could he grow? Perhaps. It's a good system for his skills. But that's as far as I go for agreement.

2013-2014 Season

Duncan- Net Rtg- +10

Parker-Net Rtg- +3

2012-2013 Season


Duncan- Net Rtg- +12

Parker-Net Rtg- +10

Net Rtg is defensive rating subtracted by offensive rating.

The big 3 haven't been as good together when they are on the floor this season. That 3 man unit is +1.5 last season they were +3.6.

[Gino-Step]

2013-2014 Season

Duncan- Net Rtg- +10

Parker-Net Rtg- +3

2012-2013 Season


Duncan- Net Rtg- +12

Parker-Net Rtg- +10

Net Rtg is defensive rating subtracted by offensive rating.

The big 3 haven't been as good together when they are on the floor this season. That 3 man unit is +1.5 last season they were +3.6.

Thank you. Stats back up my theory.

[Gino-Step]

Ha. I got the same feeling after reading the "piece". Basically, the Gol_en State Warriors of the 2000s is the future.

Sorry no.

To say I'm basically advocating Nellie-ball is to not comprehend my view. Nellie ball = play small at PG, SG, SF, PF and C positions.

I am saying play small at PF and C positions but play large at the PG and SG positions.

Baron Davis and Monte Ellis would not play in my system.

Michael Carter Williams and Danny Green would. Sean Livingston and Klay Thompson would as the guards.

I am advocating close knit versatility across the 5 players.

[Arcadian]

Would you consider playing at least one traditional big man? I still think PF/Cs (like Duncan) are highly effective if they can shoot a mid-range jumper.

[Man In Black]

The Tim fucks up your theory by pointing to...Hey...we've won 17 straight...and lookie here:

http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/140331_tim_duncan_named_western_conference_player_ of_the_week

[Seventyniner]

I am saying play small at PF and C positions but play large at the PG and SG positions.

That is Nellie-ball. Don Nelson didn't always get to play it due to roster composition. Baron Davis and Monta Ellis made too much money to ride the bench all the time; ownership sometimes has a say in rotations too.

[Man In Black]

Oh and one more thing:

2013-2014 after 73 games: 57-13

2012-2013 after 73 games:55-18

If their D ratings are so bad...then why do they win more?

It's a team concept. And the interchangeability aspect you talk about has been done in Europe for a while now. At the end of the day, if you have a dominant low post player, you can override length with that power.

There is no one way to win at this game. You just play your style and hope that it makes a great fight and you win.

[Aztecfan03]

Thank you. Stats back up my theory.

Duncan and parker being not quite as good this year backs up your theory?

[Aztecfan03]

Oh and one more thing:

2013-2014 after 73 games: 57-13

2012-2013 after 73 games:55-18

If their D ratings are so bad...then why do they win more?

It's a team concept. And the interchangeability aspect you talk about has been done in Europe for a while now. At the end of the day, if you have a dominant low post player, you can override length with that power.

There is no one way to win at this game. You just play your style and hope that it makes a great fight and you win.

Isn't 5'11" Patty Mills the biggest difference in playing time between this season and last? His minutes are replacing 6'4" neal pretty much. kinda shoots a whole in his theory.

oops forgot belinelli. He has replace Jackson's and some of Green's minutes.

[Man In Black]

It's actually Bellinelli AND Mills. Unlike Gary and for the most part, Matt Bonner...when you ain't making shots, you're giving the team NADA.

Mills and Belinelli recognize the value of a ball possession and they don't make dumb decisions and don't take bad shots. Plus...They actually understand that Defense is important the entire time on the court.

When Gary Neal let Chalmers hit that Half Court shot at the end of the 1st half, those 3 points ...killer. Had Marco been here or Patty been skinnier...the Spurs could have had a title from just that play alone.

[Chinook]

We've been over this. Specialists beat generalists every time in a stable environment. That's a fundamental aspect of fitness. Unless you have five Lebrons to throw out on defense, the opposing PGs will blow passed their men and the opposing bigs will pound them inside. The only place generalists can win is in a chaotic environment. The NBA itself has to change pretty dramatically for amorphous lineups to work at a high level.

[Gino-Step]

We've been over this. Specialists beat generalists every time in a stable environment. That's a fundamental aspect of fitness. Unless you have five Lebrons to throw out on defense, the opposing PGs will blow passed their men and the opposing bigs will pound them inside. The only place generalists can win is in a chaotic environment. The NBA itself has to change pretty dramatically for amorphous lineups to work at a high level.

Spurs motion offence and the Heat motion offence are exactly predicated on chaos. Pass anywhere shoot anywhere drive anywhere.

Gone are the days of small point guard walk up the court....makes a pass into the post ... and spots up.

[Chinook]

Spurs motion offence and the Heat motion offence are exactly predicated on chaos. Pass anywhere shoot anywhere drive anywhere.

Gone are the days of small point guard walk up the court....makes a pass into the post ... and spots up.

The Heat's offense is predicated on having the best player who ever lived consistently playing MVP-caliber ball, and the Spurs' offense works best when their specialized PG using his physical gifts to beat his man. Those are poor examples. The Heat offense can't be replicated, and the Spurs' offense relies on creating mismatches that simply would not be there in your ideal NBA.

[Gino-Step]

The Heat's offense is predicated on having the best player who ever lived consistently playing MVP-caliber ball, and the Spurs' offense works best when their specialized PG using his physical gifts to beat his man. Those are poor examples. The Heat offense can't be replicated, and the Spurs' offense relies on creating mismatches that simply would not be there in your ideal NBA.

Roy Hibbert looks completely lost guarding Boris Diaw. Did you see that three?

The Spurs don't need Parker to run their offence... it's pretty clear this year they were fine with Parker injured. They were not fine with Leonard or Green injured. Because they are my type of players.

Indiana cannot score precisely because their players are not versatile enough. If they had Diaw instead of Mahinmi they'd be better off. Hibbert, Mahinmi, Bynum? LOL a franchise that has no clue how the NBA works.

[therealtruth]

Phil Jackson understood that. Why do you think he started a 6-6 shooting guard as PG.

[Kabals]

You could said Miami is the closest thing to your theory and they won 2 rings but that was very close. They lost against the Mavs and almost lost against the Spurs. They only won easily against Thunder, another team close to your theory. And they did this with the best player in the league and a lot of money. A small market team like Spurs would have a damn lot of trouble of building such a team.

Also, your team could easily be forced to take a lot of jumpshot and would have a lot of trouble defending in the paint.

Your team will profit of the lack of dominant big man in the league but every time they will face one he will dominates you, that's why Miami took the risk to sign Oden.

[Gino-Step]

Bump. This is what happens when you play Duncan and Parker against length and mobility teams. Oh but see how Kawhi wasn't affected.

[spurraider21]

Update: nobody cares, still

[Aztecfan03]

Nope. This is what happen when thunderrefs.

[Gino-Step]

Bump again. Duncan and Parker are useless in the new NBA. You need Chris Bosh as your center.

[JonNOKC]

This lineup may work since it would be 7 vs 5

[Sean Cagney]

Bump again. Duncan and Parker are useless in the new NBA. You need Chris Bosh as your center.

How is Duncan useless in the NBA when he could have been last years finals MVP if it had ended in that game 6? He dominated Memphis as well etc. This makes no sense, he dominated Bosh in those finals.

[gilmor]

How is Duncan useless in the NBA when he could have been last years finals MVP if it had ended in that game 6? He dominated Memphis as well etc. This makes no sense, he dominated Bosh in those finals.

A lot of fans are delusional.. They don't watch basketball.. They watch certain players only..

[Sean Cagney]

A lot of fans are delusional.. They don't watch basketball.. They watch certain players only..

Thats about the facts right now.

[therealtruth]

How is Duncan useless in the NBA when he could have been last years finals MVP if it had ended in that game 6? He dominated Memphis as well etc. This makes no sense, he dominated Bosh in those finals.

Till Pop happened and made sure he didn't get his Finals MVP trophy. Can you imagine what would have happened if Pop had actually let him play. TD would have made sure everybody was in their right spots defensively and in good rebounding position. He gets the rebound and they win. And there would be no what if's.

[Seventyniner]

Till Pop happened and made sure he didn't get his Finals MVP trophy. Can you imagine what would have happened if Pop had actually let him play. TD would have made sure everybody was in their right spots defensively and in good rebounding position. He gets the rebound and they win. And there would be no what if's.

Wow.

If Duncan was in the game they put him in a pick and roll and he gets completely lost. Then the Heat get a wide open 3 instead of the contested shot LeBron took. Even then, Duncan would be out at the 3-point line and out of position for any rebound.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Bump again. Duncan and Parker are useless in the new NBA. You need Chris Bosh as your center.


http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/fuck-you-gifs-26.gif

[Chinook]

Wow.

If Duncan was in the game they put him in a pick and roll and he gets completely lost. Then the Heat get a wide open 3 instead of the contested shot LeBron took. Even then, Duncan would be out at the 3-point line and out of position for any rebound.

Nope. Tim's hands have a gravitational pull in clutch moments. Didn't you know that?

:lol It's absurd that people are still acting like that was a coaching mistake when the Spurs lost Game Six of the Dallas series almost exclusively because Pop left Duncan in the game down the stretch.

[therealtruth]

Wow.

If Duncan was in the game they put him in a pick and roll and he gets completely lost. Then the Heat get a wide open 3 instead of the contested shot LeBron took. Even then, Duncan would be out at the 3-point line and out of position for any rebound.

They still got a fairly wide open 3 so it didn't make a difference. You're forgetting how well TD was playing that game. You think he wouldn't be motivated to make a defensive stop when the Spurs needed one? That's the on the fly coaching Pop sucks at.

[cjw]

Wow.

If Duncan was in the game they put him in a pick and roll and he gets completely lost. Then the Heat get a wide open 3 instead of the contested shot LeBron took. Even then, Duncan would be out at the 3-point line and out of position for any rebound.

Wow, someone smart for once!

[Seventyniner]

Nope. Tim's hands have a gravitational pull in clutch moments. Didn't you know that?

:lol It's absurd that people are still acting like that was a coaching mistake when the Spurs lost Game Six of the Dallas series almost exclusively because Pop left Duncan in the game down the stretch.

I look at Pop's decision to bench Tim like a coach in (American) football choosing to go for it on a pivotal 4th down.

I'll try for some more specific context. Your football team is up 3 on its own 40 yard line, 4th and inches, 1:45 left on the clock and your opponent has no timeouts (you have two). You also have one of the better goal-line offense packages. If you go for it and convert, 3 kneeldowns and the game is over. If you punt, the other team still has a lot of time to come back, albeit the length of the field. If you go for it and miss, they have to drive about 15 yards to get a chance to tie, but then you could get the ball back through judicious use of timeouts and have a chance to win in regulation.

[Gino-Step]

C Embid 7ft, 7-5 wingspan
PF Noel 6-11, 7-4 wingspan
SF Grant 6-8, 7-3 wingspan
SG McDaniels 6-6, 6-11 wingspan
PG Williams 6-6, 6-7 wingspan

That is what I call length and athleticism. Teams will be scoring no more than 80 ppg against that lineup.

[palangi]

C Embid 7ft, 7-5 wingspan
PF Noel 6-11, 7-4 wingspan
SF Grant 6-8, 7-3 wingspan
SG McDaniels 6-6, 6-11 wingspan
PG Williams 6-6, 6-7 wingspan

That is what I call length and athleticism. Teams will be scoring no more than 80 ppg against that lineup.
There is also no scoring threat out on the floor. You could pack the paint and make them jump shooters. They might not score 50 points.

[Chinook]

Phoenix missed the boat by passing on Anderson. Imagine an Anderson/Green/Warren/Morris/Morris lineup? That's five 6-8 players who can each play multiple positions.

[Gino-Step]

Phoenix missed the boat by passing on Anderson. Imagine an Anderson/Green/Warren/Morris/Morris lineup? That's five 6-8 players who can each play multiple positions.

absolutely

[Aztecfan03]

absolutely

I think that was sarcasm. At least I hope so.

[kobyz]

C Embid 7ft, 7-5 wingspan
PF Noel 6-11, 7-4 wingspan
SF Grant 6-8, 7-3 wingspan
SG McDaniels 6-6, 6-11 wingspan
PG Williams 6-6, 6-7 wingspan

That is what I call length and athleticism. Teams will be scoring no more than 80 ppg against that lineup.

ala 99 Spurs championship team(except from Avery)!

[Chinook]

I think that was sarcasm. At least I hope so.

Sort of. I'd love to see if sucha lineup could work in the league. I don't see why it couldn't for stretches. But I believe in specialists over generalists, so I don't think Phoenix should have changed their lineup.

[Baam]

Meh my fantasy lineup would be : TP Manu Kawhi Anderson Diaw

Everyone can dribble, pass and shoot the 3 :wow, nuclear offense waiting to happen.

[cjw]

Meh my fantasy lineup would be : TP Manu Kawhi Anderson Diaw

Everyone can dribble, pass and shoot the 3 :wow, nuclear offense waiting to happen.

Definitely is a fantasy (basketball) lineup. Would score a bunch more points too as there'd be no D to stop penetration of opposing PGs.

[Gino-Step]

The Spurs now focusing on inside, midrange, and three point shot aka agnostic to scoring on any part of the court. As I mentioned before.

[K...]

Why did the spurs draft a 6'5'' pg? Ginostep

Why are the spurs thinking about kawhi at sg? Ginostep

Why are all these players getting ridiculous money? Ginostep