Trouble in Crawford: "Why did my son die?"

[Nbadan]

http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2005/31-40/sheehan%20photos/thestopP1010175.jpg


The angry mother of a fallen U.S. soldier staged a protest near President Bush's ranch on Saturday, demanding an accounting from the president of how he has conducted the war in Iraq.

Supported by more than 50 shouting demonstrators, Cindy Sheehan, 48, told reporters, "I want to ask George Bush: Why did my son die?"

Sheehan arrived in Crawford aboard a bus painted red, white and blue and emblazoned with the words, "Impeachment Tour."

Her son, Casey, 24, was killed in Sadr City, Iraq, on April 4, 2004. He was an Army specialist, a Humvee mechanic.

Sheehan, from Vacaville, Calif., had been attending a Veterans for Peace Convention in Dallas. She vowed she would camp out as close as she could get to the president's ranch until Bush comes out and talks to her.

Local law enforcement officials were keeping Sheehan four to five miles away from the ranch's entrance.

"If they won't cooperate, we won't," Capt. Kenneth Vanek of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department, said of the marchers.

He said the group was stopped because some marchers ignored instructions to walk in the ditch beside the road, not on the road.

Sheehan said she decided to come to Crawford a few days ago after Bush said that fallen U.S. troops had died for a noble cause and that the mission must be completed.

"I don't want him to use my son's name or my family name to justify any more killing," she said.

Sheehan said Bush administration officials "don't have a mission and they don't even ever plan on completing it." She said she fears that the United States plans to keep a U.S. military presence in Iraq indefinitely.

The White House responded to the protest, saying the president wants to bring the troops home.

"Many of the hundreds of families the president has met with know their loved one died for a noble cause and that the best way to honor their sacrifice is to complete the mission," White House spokesman Trent Duffy said Saturday. "It is a message the president has heard time and again from those he has met with and comforted. Like all Americans, he wants the troops home as soon as soon as possible."

Sheehan's bus pulled up at a house run by peace activists a few hundred feet from the town's only stoplight. There, she met up with other demonstrators and then led a caravan of about 20 vehicles down a winding road toward Bush's ranch.

The group stopped along the way and sheriff's deputies advised them that if they wanted to go farther toward the ranch, they would have to walk in a ditch along the road.

The marchers walked about half a mile until the deputies stopped them, saying that they had violated their instructions by walking on the road itself instead of staying in the adjacent ditch.

Sheehan protested, saying she had not walked on the road. The deputies refused to let her go farther.

The protesters then began chanting, "W killed her son."

MySanAntonio (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8BQHPC00.html)

more...


"In the name of 1,828 soldiers that should be alive, I'm going to see the president," said Cindy Sheehan, co-founder of Gold Star Families for Peace (center, left). "He killed my son." An hour of so later, two of Bush's aides met with her for 45 minutes; however, Sheehan vowed to stay in Crawford Saturday until she met face-to-face with the president.

Iconoclast (http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/News/2005/31-40/31news02.htm)

Break out the popcorn and have a seat. This could turn into a circus very fast. War protestors from around the country are said to be converging on tiny Crawford Texas.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I don't think it will amount to anything. "This is just a greeving mother who is looking for someone to blame. We understand her grief and will do everything in our power to assuage the pain her loss has 'caused her" or so will the official statement go. Then things will continue as planned

[whottt]

This just in...US military service is voluntary.

IF you are not willing to die for your country...then don't join the military.

IF you do not want your son or daughter to die in service to their country...then don't let them join the military.

If you join the military...there is always a very strong chance that you will be called into service and sent into a war.

It's not just something you sign up for to do a lot of exersize and wear silly looking clothes.

Why do you post propaganda Dan?

[Duff McCartney]

IF you are not willing to die for your country...then don't join the military.

IF you do not want your son or daughter to die in service to their country...then don't let them join the military.

Dying for your country for a just cause and dying for it for some other reason aren't the same thing.

Yeah Whottt, like you could really stop your child from joining the military. You can't.

[whottt]

Dying for your country for a just cause and dying for it for some other reason aren't the same thing.

And who defines "just cause"?

The mother of a slain child? In that case even old age isn't a just cause.

The entire reason that freeing the female voice is so valuable in Western civilization is why their definition of "just cause" isn't exactly the objective one on this subject. Most women are non-violent in nature, to the extreme and freeing their voice within a society makes it less warlike and violent....that doesn't mean they are always right, they are just part of the balance....because you can't go through life being a total pussy.

Her son joining the military does not give her the right to define just cause...

When her son signed his life away to the US Military...he was giving them the right to define "just cause"...IE it's whatever the government determines is just cause.

Now you may not like that...and she may not like that...and I probably wouldn't like it either if my child died...but that doesn't change the facts. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to join the military and serve his country.

That was a choice he made.

She isn't the one determining US policy...she doesn't get to determine just cause....she is not the commander in chief...and the people leading this country have bigger responsibilities than making sure her son is returned to her alive after he has agreed to go and die if necessary in the name of his country.

If you don't want to die in a war...then don't join the military...because signing your name to the document takes away your choice to choose.


And idiots need to stop comparing this to viet nam because everyone currently serving in the US military volunteered to do so. They volunteered their lives for their country...as best their country sees fit.







Yeah Whottt, like you could really stop your child from joining the military. You can't.

The honor his memory and don't demean it and politicize it.

No one forced him to join the military...he knew the stakes when he joined. He did it.

It's not the US Military's job to mother her child and make sure he makes non-violent decisions that extend his life...it's her job to do it...and she failed at it. And she embarrases his memory by skewing the lines between her political views and her mothering instincts.


She's using his death...and it's being used by those around her. And it is a sickening practice.

[The Ressurrected One]

With every war, there are those who believe it is unjust and shouldn't be fought. That includes WWII, where there was a sizable minority (such as we have now) who were opposed to military action in Europe and the Pacific.

300,000 Americans died in both major theaters of that war and, I'm equally certain, there were mothers such as this one who held the Commander in Chief accountable for their sons' deaths.

But, with the condemnation of those who lost loved ones in the prosecution of war, comes the gratitude of those who are the recipients of the security such a cost provides.

President Truman is frequently villified for his decision to use the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing -- or condemning to a cruel, painful, and swift death -- almost 300,000 Japanese, in a matter of seconds. Nevermind that the firebombing raids over Tokyo, Dresden, and other cities, claimed just as many lives and caused just as much destruction.

But, equally, he should be honored for his resolute decision to save tens of thousands of American lives at the expense of innocent Japanese -- simply because their government would not yield in the face of overwhelming force and they would not demand it.

We won WWII because we kept focused on the goal the war, to end Nazi atrocities in Europe and Japanese Imperialism in the Pacific. But, we also won because we countered the negative voices of dissent with just as much vigor as we prosecuted the war abroad -- as if it were a third front, so to speak.

We lost Vietnam because we lost that war. Not because we lost militarily in Vietnam.

In this war, we need to develop our forces at home to fight those of you, among us, who would have brought our troops home after D-Day or, who would have capitulated to the Japanese on December 8, 1941; or, those of you who sit before congressional committees and lie your asses off about made up atrocities committed by fellow soldiers.

You're just as much an enemy as the Islamo-fascists.

[JoeChalupa]

War is hell and people die. Very simple.

[Jelly]

I'm sorry for her loss, and though I wouldn't fault her for doing whatever she needs to do to work through her grief, objectively, she doesn't have much of an argument. Anyone who chooses to join the military (and their parents), does so knowing that they might end up in war, which could get them killed, and they also know full well that they don't get to choose or vote on which war they'd like to attend. Every single war or military action the U.S. has been in has been called "immoral" or "unjust" by sizable minorities. The only "popular" war we've had was probably The Persian Gulf War, but even that had lots of protestors in the U.S. Even WWII and WWI had large groups of people protesting and calling for the U.S. to stay out. For someone joining today, they don't even have to look that far back to see the U.S. has engaged in military action that many people found objectionable (Korea, Viet Nam, Somalia, and a slew of campaigns in Central America and the Carribean). I remember all these pundits bitching on TV about the unjust invasion of Panama.
The point is, if you're going to join the U.S. military, do so knowing that not one single war we've been involved in (since 1812) has had anything to do with the direct homeland defense of the United States. Every military person today knows that if they are sent to war it will not be to defend against an invading force, but will be to fight in some remote place with reasons that might be ambiguous to some and unjustifiable to many. It's fine to be a peacenik and protest this war...there are good reasons to be against it, but people need to remember that we do have a voluntary force. And that sign that someone's holding up calling Iraq another Viet Nam is a joke. The guy doesn't know his history very well. I'm not going to plug in the figures, but our casualties have been roughly 750 a year in Iraq. In Viet Nam, we were losing 400, sometimes 500, people EVERY WEEK! And that WASN'T a voluntary force! In fact, despite the current hysteria going on in the media, our casualty rate in Iraq is among the lowest ever suffered by any nation in any war.

btw- our Revolutionary War was only supported by 1/3 of Americans. 1/3 were loyal to the crown and 1/3 were apathetic.

[mookie2001]

Now you may not like that...and she may not like that...and I probably wouldn't like it either if my child died...but that doesn't change the facts. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to join the military and serve his country.

That was a choice he made.

She isn't the one determining US policy...she doesn't get to determine just cause....she is not the commander in chief...and the people leading this country have bigger responsibilities than making sure her son is returned to her alive after he has agreed to go and die if necessary in the name of his country.

No one forced him to join the military...he knew the stakes when he joined. He did it.

And she embarrases his memory by skewing the lines between her political views and her mothering instincts.

????
no fucking shit
post of the century?





how is she embarrasing his memory?

[Marcus Bryant]

This reminds me of when a father of one of the 18 Rangers killed in Somalia in 1993 met up with Clinton on a receiving line, spit in the then-president's face and blamed the president for his son's death.

Of course, the president was a Democrat so it didn't matter. This thread is fucking stupid.

[The Ressurrected One]

This reminds me of when a father of one of the 18 Rangers killed in Somalia in 1993 met up with Clinton on a receiving line, spit in the then-president's face and blamed the president for his son's death.

Of course, the president was a Democrat so it didn't matter. This thread is fucking stupid.
Clinton chickened out and pulled out of Somalia and didn't finish the job...he deserved to be spat on.

[mookie2001]

how dare you say that about our former leader !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trainwreck2100]

Dying for your country for a just cause and dying for it for some other reason aren't the same thing.

Yeah Whottt, like you could really stop your child from joining the military. You can't.


He died for somebody else's country.


Clinton chickened out and pulled out of Somalia and didn't finish the job...he deserved to be spat on.

The president can do whatever he wants, he's the president. We elected him, no matter what we do, he won in a democratic process, simple as that.

[whottt]

????
no fucking shit
post of the century?





how is she embarrasing his memory?

By politicizing it...she's basically rendering her sons death meaningless and making a mockery of it.

And if she's advocating that we pull out of Iraq she's really rendering it meaningless.

What is her point? To hurt Bush in the next election?

If not for her sons noble sacrifice I'd advocate that she...like all the ambivalent anti war people...get dropped smack dab into the heart of the middle east where the can experience some sensual and gentle muzzie love.

You know it's not a crime to rape a woman in the middle east...unless she's not married...and if she's not married when it happens they'll execute her...either by legal indifference or by tribal law.

Not a just cause indeed....

You know what's wrong with the middle east, and what makes it a just cause?

She's not there.

[Trainwreck2100]

And if she's advocating that we pull out of Iraq she's really rendering it meaningless.



Or she could be trying to prevent this pain from happening to anybodyelse's mother. That's a good spin right there.

[whottt]

Or she could be trying to prevent this pain from happening to anybodyelse's mother. That's a good spin right there.

What about those people who lost children who don't feel the cause was unjust?

How much pain do you think her actions are causing them?


What's she doing is grieving...but no one forced her son to join.

[Trainwreck2100]

What about those people who lost children who don't feel the cause was unjust?

How much pain do you think her actions are causing them?


What's she doing is grieving...but no one forced her son to join.

It's her right as Americans to peaceful assembly. If it hurts them as much as she has been hurt they should speak out against her, like she is doing about the war. I hope that what she wants is an honest answer as to why her son died and this is not some publicity stunt for a book deal or something. If the woman needs colsure and this is the only way it can be achieved whether or not she talks to Bush, (she prob. won't) all the power to her. It's her right.

[whottt]

It's her rights as Americans to peaceful assembly. If it hurts them as much as she has been hurt they should speak out against it, like she is doing.


And every terrorist that stays on just a little while longer...to shoot another bullet, and kill another soldier...because they see her and think they are closer to winning, if they can just hold on long enough...

What do you say to those parents?

[Trainwreck2100]

And every terrorist that stays on just a little while longer...to shoot another bullet, and kill another soldier...because they see her and think they are closer to winning, if they can just hold on long enough...

What do you say to those parents?

It's her constitutional right to say what she wants as long as she soes it peacefully she is doing what the Costitution has guaranteed her. Aren't those rights what we are fighting for.

[whottt]

It's her constitutional right to say what she wants as long as she soes it peacefully she is doing what the Costitution has guaranteed her. Aren't those rights what we are fighting for.


Not according to her we aren't.

[mookie2001]

trainwrecks right
i think its inappropriate to talk about one family you dont know and say shes embarrassing him
she loved her son- im sure
Bush didnt kill her son but he sent him to fight a bullshit war

now we can argue over and over again why the war is bullshit.

[Trainwreck2100]

Not according to her we aren't.



Sheehan said she decided to come to Crawford a few days ago after Bush said that fallen U.S. troops had died for a noble cause and that the mission must be completed.

"I don't want him to use my son's name or my family name to justify any more killing," she said.

Maybe I missed something. If she is next of kin I think it is her right to say whether ot not to use her son's legacy in a way she sees as wrong.

I don't agree with her saying "W killed my son" becuase he swore to follow the president of the united states. But I do agree with her right to say it.

[whottt]

trainwrecks right
i think its inappropriate to talk about one family you dont know and say shes embarrassing him
she loved her son- im sure
Bush didnt kill her son but he sent him to fight a bullshit war

now we can argue over and over again why the war is bullshit.


I do know him...he was a man who gave his life for his country. Voluntarily. A hero.

She's not using his death to honor what he died for and what he believed...she's using it to pursue her own political agenda. Her own beliefs. But she's not the one who died for her beliefs. He is. And they are the exact opposite of hers.

That is a political group she is with. They think they know what's best for this country and they are not respecting the will of the US people illustrated when they re-elected W.

It's their right to be anti-war...it's their right to protest, especially since they are a veterans group. But she is dishonoring his memory and minimalizing the cause in which he gave his life. And she's renting his death out to those with a political agenda.

[whottt]

Maybe I missed something. If she is next of kin I think it is her right to say whether ot not to use her son's legacy in a way she sees as wrong.

I don't agree with her saying "W killed my son" becuase he swore to follow the president of the united states. But I do agree with her right to say it.


What gives her the right to speak for her dead son?

If she spoke for her son then what was he doing in the military? He wasn't drafted.


His actions indicate he stood for something totally different than she does.

[mookie2001]

im guessing she would have rather her son died for a good reason/or not at all

this all goes back to why are we at war
neverending debate...

[Trainwreck2100]

I do know him...he was a man who gave his life for his country. Voluntarily. A hero.

She's not using his death to honor what he died for and what he believed...she's using it to pursue her own political agenda. Her own beliefs. But she's not the one who died for her beliefs. He is. And they are the exact opposite of hers.

That is a political group she is with. They think they know what's best for this country and they are not respecting the will of the US people illustrated when they re-elected W.

It's their right to be anti-war...it's their right to protest, especially since they are a veterans group. But she is dishonoring his memory and minimalizing the cause in which he gave his life. And she's renting his death out to those with a political agenda.


We don't know what his beliefs were, it's quite possible he didn't want to be there and the only reason he was, was because his brothers had to be there. I don't know the entire set of circumstances so I won't go there.

As for respecting the will of the people, she doesn't have to do that for reasons I already outlined.

[whottt]

im guessing she would have rather her son died for a good reason/or not at all

this all goes back to why are we at war
neverending debate...

He obviously felt it was a good reason.

Either that or he was an idiot who picked the absolute worst profession to be in for someone who doesn't want to be in a war.

[whottt]

We don't know what his beliefs were, it's quite possible he didn't want to be there and the only reason he was, was because his brothers had to be there. I don't know the entire set of circumstances so I won't go there.


If he didn't want to be in a war, he shouldn't have joined the military. He does not get the right, alive or dead, to choose the war or determine it's righteousness once he is in the military.

Again, he was not drafted, he volunteered.




As for respecting the will of the people, she doesn't have to do that for reasons I already outlined.

Um..if you live in a Democracy you had best learn to respect the will of the people, or else you just aren't getting it.

And she can protest all she wants...but when she sticks his face on her cause she is dishonoring every thing he lived and died for, and using it to pursue her own agenda. Protest away...but don't stick his face on her protest and use his death to give it more power, he didn't die for her to achieve her anti-war stance...his stance appears to be the exact opposite of hers.

And even if it wasn't...ooops...if you don't want to fight in a war then don't join the military. It's not Rocket Science.

What she is doing is wrong.

[Trainwreck2100]

If he didn't want to be in a war, he shouldn't have joined the military. He does not get the right, alive or dead, to choose the war or determine it's righteousness once he is in the military.

Again, he was not drafted, he volunteered.





Um..if you live in a Democracy you had best learn to respect the will of the people, or else you just aren't getting it.

And she can protest all she wants...but when she sticks his face on her cause she is dishonoring every thing he lived and died for, and using it to pursue her own agenda. Protest away...but don't stick his face on her protest and use his death to give it more power, he didn't die for her to achieve her anti-war stance...his stance appears to be the exact opposite of hers.

And even if it wasn't...ooops...if you don't want to fight in a war then don't join the military. It's not Rocket Science.

What she is doing is wrong.

Exactly, just because he fought in the war doesn't mean he has to think it was righteous. We don't know that he thought the cause was righteous so when you said he felt it was for a good reason. I'm saying we don't know if the reason he was there was he felt he should go for the iraqi's or he wanted to be there because his brothers were there.

There have been many times the will of the people has changed because the minority rose up to challenge it, correct?

[whottt]

Exactly, just because he fought in the war doesn't mean he has to think it was righteous. We don't know that he thought the cause was righteous so when you said he felt it was for a good reason. I'm saying we don't know if the reason he was there was he felt he should go for the iraqi's or he wanted to be there because his brothers were there.

It doesn't matter. No one forced him to go. He had the freedom to choose what he did.




There have been many times the will of the people has changed because the minority rose up to challenge it, correct?

Anytime the minority is imposing it's will on the majority it is an oppressive situation. Because that's the only way the minority can impose it's will. History shows this to be true 100% of the time.

[whottt]

Here is an open letter by this woman to George Bush...as I suspected...she's whoring her sons death out for her own beliefs.



AN OPEN LETTER TO GEORGE BUSH

November 4, 2004

Dear George,

You don’t mind if I call you George do you? When you sent me a letter offering your condolences on the death of my son, Spc. Casey Austin Sheehan, in the illegal and unjust war on Iraq, you called me Cindy, so I naturally assume we are on a first name basis.

George, it has been seven months today since your reckless and wanton foreign policies killed my son, my big boy, my hero, my best-friend: Casey. It has been seven months since your ignorant and arrogant lack of planning for the peace murdered my oldest child. It has been two days since your dishonest campaign stole another election…but you all were way more subtle this time than in 2000, weren’t you? You hardly had to get the Supreme Court of the United States involved at all this week.

You feel so proud of yourself for betraying the country again, don’t you? You think you are very clever because you pulled the wool over the eyes of some of the people again. You think that you have some mandate from God…that you can “spend your political capital” any way that you want. George you don’t care or even realize that 56,000,000 plus citizens of this country voted against you and your agenda. Still, you are going to continue your ruthless work of being a divider and not a uniter. George, in 2000 when you stole that election and the Democrats gave up, I gave up too. I had the most ironic thought of my life then: "Oh well, how much damage can he do in four years?" Well, now I know how much you have damaged my family, this country, and this world. If you think I am going to allow you another four years to do even more damage, then you truly are mistaken. I will fight for a true vote count and if that fails, your impeachment. Also, the impeachment of your Vice President. The only thing is, I'm not politically savvy, and I don't have a Karl Rove to plan my strategy, but I do have a big mouth and a righteous cause, which still mean something in this country, I hope.

All of this lying, fooling, and betraying must be “hard work” George. You really think you know what hard work is?

George, let me tell you what “hard work” really is.

Hard work is seeing your oldest son, your brave and honorable man-child go off to a war that had, and still has, no basis in reality. Hard work is worrying yourself gray and not being able to sleep for 2 weeks because you don’t know if your child is safe.

Hard work is seeing your son’s murder on CNN one Sunday evening while you’re enjoying the last supper you’ll ever truly enjoy again.

Hard work is having three military officers come to your house a few hours later to confirm the aforementioned murder of your son…your first born…your kind and gentle sweet baby.

Hard work is burying your child 46 days before his 25th birthday. Hard work is holding your other three children as they lower the body of their big “baba” into the ground. Hard work is not jumping in the grave with him and having the earth cover you both.

But, Dear George, do you know what the hardest work of all is? Trying to digest the fact that the leader of the country that your family has fought for and died for, for generations, lied to you and betrayed your dear boy’s sense of honor and exploited his courage and exploited his loyalty to his buddies. Hard work is having your country abandon you after they killed your son. Hard work is coming to the realization that your son had his future robbed from him and that you have had your son's future and future grand-children stolen from you. Hard work is knowing that there are so many people in this world that have prospered handsomely from your son's death.

George, I must confess that I and my family worked very HARD to re-defeat you this time, but you refuse to stay defeated. Well, we are watching you very carefully. We are going to do everything in our power to have you impeached for misleading the American people into a disastrous war and for mis-using and abusing your power as Commander-in-Chief. We are going to scream until our last breath to bring the rest of our babies home from this quagmire of a war that you have gotten our country in to: before too many more families learn the true meaning of Hard Work. We know it is going to be an uphill battle, knowing how Republican Congress is, but thanks to you, we know the meaning of Hard Work and we’re not afraid of hard work at all.

The 56,000,000 plus citizens who voted against you and your agenda have given me a mandate to move forward with my agenda. Also, thanks to you and your careless domestic policies, I am unemployed, so this will be my full-time job. Being your political downfall will be the most noble accomplishment of my life and it will bring justice for my son and 1125 (so far) other brave Americans and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis your lies have killed. By the way, George, how many more innocent Iraqis are your policies going to kill before you convince them that you are better than Saddam? How many more of their cities are you going to level before you consider that they are liberated? If you really had any moral values, or if you were an honorable man at all you would resign. My son was a man who had high moral values and true courage. Humanity lost a bright light on April 04, 2004. I will live the rest of my life missing Casey desperately. Thank you for that, George. Have a nice day.


I do not see one sentence there where she said her son was against this war and did not want to go over there in fight...

And believe me...the way this bitch goes for the jugular she certainly would be saying it if it were true.

She's a selfish woman and she's missing the point that her son was making. I mourn her loss, sincerely. But I have no respect for the way she chooses to use her sons death. She's the one saying he died for nothing, she's the one rendering his death meaningless. And she wants to make it even more meaningless.


I'd be more impressed with her stance if she was anti-Kerry as well...seeing as how he, along with the rest of congress, gave the President the power to take us into this war. And Kerry sat on the Senate intelligence commitee for a decade.

[Trainwreck2100]

It doesn't matter. No one forced him to go. He had the freedom to choose what he did.





Anytime the minority is imposing it's will on the majority it is an oppressive situation. Because that's the only way the minority can impose it's will. History shows this to be true 100% of the time.


The majority can change their outlook, and then the minority viewpoint becomes the majority. But the minority has to get their viewpoint out there. That's why we are given the Right to peaceful assembly.

[whottt]

The majority can change their outlook, and then the minority viewpoint becomes the majority. But the minority has to get their viewpoint out there. That's why we are given the Right to peaceful assembly.

Um...we've heard the minority viewpoint. Ad nauseum, we've held an election and given a mandate.

Again..I can live with her anti war stance...but her sticking her sons face on it is wrong.

[mookie2001]

wheres that letter from?

[Trainwreck2100]

Um...we've heard the minority viewpoint. Ad nauseum, we've held an election and given a mandate.

Again..I can live with her anti war stance...but her sticking her sons face on it is wrong.


Without knowing everything I won't totally agree with either side of what this lady is doing. I was mostly arguing about when you said she has to respect the will of the people.

[whottt]

This is from Casey Sheehan's obituary:


Sheehan was killed Sunday in a fire-fight outside Baghdad. Sheehan’s family members said his sergeant told them he and another soldier, Cpl. Forest J. Jostes, volunteered to be part of a quick response team when rioting started in Baghdad.

“He didn’t have to go,” said Sheehan’s 23-year-old sister, Carly. “He would do anything for anybody. He’d give you the shirt off his back. He was just a loving and caring person.”

Carly Sheehan said her brother was active in his Catholic church, spending 10 years as an altar server and serving in the youth ministry.

“That’s all he wanted to do was serve God and his country his whole life,” Carly Sheehan said. “He was a boy scout from age 6 or 7 and an Eagle Scout. It was kind of a natural progression to go into the military from that. He said he was enjoying the military because it was just like the boy scouts but they got guns.”

— Associated Press



Like I said, this man was a hero and she's using his death in a cause, her cause, that ran directly against what he believed...He's the one that died, not her.

[mookie2001]

just like the boy scouts...
but different

[whottt]

Here is the link to his mothers site, that's where I got the letter from:

http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/spkhntrca/Casey.html

[whottt]

just like the boy scouts...
but different


He didn't have to go

She gets it...why don't you?


Don't even try and use this guy to justify an antiwar stance and say this war is unjust...because you don't have that right, and neither does his mother. He died for entirely different reasons.

[mookie2001]

i get what youre saying
i would like to able to trust a president to only go to war for a good reason.
not to
disarm Saddam
no
liberate Iraq
no
set up a foothold of democracy in the middle east
no
fight terror
yeah thats it

[whottt]

Do I need to post the links...for the 1 billionth time...that list every world leader from Bill Clinton to Jaques Chirac to Kofi Anan...saying that Saddam was a threat that needed to be removed.

On top of that...Usama cited the suffering of the Iraqi people under the UN sanctions as one of the reasons for the September 11th attacks...

Sanctions that were factually proven to be corrupted by the UN itself...Saddam weapons and WMD materials under the OFF program while his people starved, while UN diplomats, and France, Germany and Russia profited, and the US was blamed for it...

So what should we have done? Lifted the sanctions? Even though Saddam kicked the UN weapons inspectors out Iraq 4 years prior to the war? Even though he violated the condictions of the cease fire a full 10 years previously? Even though his WMD capabilities were found to be far more advanced at the end of the Persian Gulf war than anyone suspected?

There was no terrorist army we could engage militarily prior to the Iraq and Afghan war, it was a shadow army ...well there is now, these fronts brought them to the surface. And the remifications of the US War in Iraq are being felt in cries for Democratic reform in virtually every country over there, and their leaders got the message as well...and that is how you fight terrorism. You do not give them what they want...you do not let terrorism work. It must fail if you want it to go away. If it works it will never go away...and you will have a minority dictating to a majority.

[Nbadan]

Do I need to post the links...for the 1 billionth time...that list every world leader from Bill Clinton to Jaques Chirac to Kofi Anan...saying that Saddam was a threat that needed to be removed.

Who considered Saddam a threat? The Kurds? The Shiite? Saddam was landlocked and embargoed. He wasn't a threat to anybody let alone the U.S. Yeah, Clinton thought Saddam was an SOB, but when PNAC presented Clinton a proposal to go into Iraq during his presidency he told them to go take a flying leap with their cooked up plans. Too bad W didn't heed Clinton's advice.

[Nbadan]

Sanctions that were factually proven to be corrupted by the UN itself...Saddam weapons and WMD materials under the OFF program while his people starved, while UN diplomats, and France, Germany and Russia profited, and the US was blamed for it...

Whott, the biggest beneficiaries of the (semi-legal) oil couponing going on with Saddam under the oil-for-food program was rich Texas oil men.

[Nbadan]

So what should we have done? Lifted the sanctions? Even though Saddam kicked the UN weapons inspectors out Iraq 4 years prior to the war? Even though he violated the condictions of the cease fire a full 10 years previously? Even though his WMD capabilities were found to be far more advanced at the end of the Persian Gulf war than anyone suspected?

Whatever issues Saddam may have had with UN inspectors they had obviously been solved in the months immediately preceeding the war because Iraq was fully cooperating with the inspectors. He was in full compliance and Hans Blix was telling us there was nothing there. In fact, it was the US, not Iraq that ordered UN inspectors out of Iraq in early 03, immediately before the U.S. attacked Iraq.

What WMD capabilities? Saddam had nothing.

[whottt]

Who considered Saddam a threat? The Kurds? The Shiite? Saddam was landlocked and embargoed. He wasn't a threat to anybody let alone the U.S. Yeah, Clinton thought Saddam was an SOB, but when PNAC presented Clinton a proposal to go into Iraq during his presidency he told them to go take a flying leap with their cooked up plans. Too bad W didn't heed Clinton's advice.

Yeah Clinton was big on not doing anything...hence 911.

I think I remember reading somewhere that Clinton could never in good conscience send the US into a war...him being a draft dodger and all.

[whottt]

Who considered Saddam a threat? The Kurds? The Shiite? Saddam was landlocked and embargoed. He wasn't a threat to anybody let alone the U.S. Yeah, Clinton thought Saddam was an SOB, but when PNAC presented Clinton a proposal to go into Iraq during his presidency he told them to go take a flying leap with their cooked up plans. Too bad W didn't heed Clinton's advice.


Um...I'll post all the links to this stuff tomorrow, again...I know it's on the forum somewhere.

[whottt]

Army Spc. Casey Sheehan died in Baghdad on April 4, 2004. The 24-year-old former Eagle Scout had been in Iraq about two weeks, serving with the 5th Cavalry Regiment of the 1st Cavalry Division. On the day Casey died his sergeant told him that as a mechanic he didn’t have to go on the mission that killed him. Casey simply replied, “Where my chief goes, I go.”

That's from a different obituary.

[Nbadan]

Okey, dokey, meanwhile Casey Sheehan has released a statement...


Camp Casey
Peaceful Occupation of Crawford, Texas
by Cindy Sheehan
Sun Aug 7th, 2005 at 14:13:38 PDT

Day One

The first day of the beginning of the end of the occupation of Iraq.

Today we went into the belly of the beast in Crawford, Texas...and lived to tell about it.

On Wednesday, August 3rd, 2005, I had a brainstorm. I was so furious about the horrible loss of life, especially from the Marine National Guard unit from Ohio. I was also so heartbroken for the families who have been wrongfully left behind. Then to top off the indignity and profanity of the needless deaths, George Bush spoke out after the deaths and said 2 things that enraged me further:

"The families of the fallen can rest assured that your loved ones died for a noble cause."

And

"We have to honor the sacrifices of the fallen by completing the mission."

The first statement is so blatantly false that it angered me for a couple of reasons. First of all, what is the noble cause? The cause changes at will when the previous cause has been proven a lie. Secondly, because many people in America, when they hear such drivel, allow themselves to be "assured." A lot of people heard that falsehood and said: "Whew, 14 Marines in one incident, that's bad, but the President said they died for a noble cause. We can get on with our consumering now"

George Bush has spewed the second filth many times and each time it upsets me more. As a mother, why would I want any other mother (American or Iraqi) to go through the same pain as I am suffering through? My son, Casey was an honorable man filled with an integrity rarely seen these days. I am sure that he would be appalled that George uses his death to justify continued killing. I am appalled that George exploits the senseless sacrifice of my family to justify his murderous policies in the Middle East. Also, does it bother anyone else that this man can take a 5 week vacation when our soldiers are suffering, dying and being maimed in Iraq? When innocent Iraqi people are being murdered everyday? When I will never be able to fully enjoy another vacation for the rest of my life?

More:Daily Kos (http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/7/171338/7578)

[whottt]

It was the same dedication the 1997 Vacaville High School graduate showed when he re-enlisted in August to serve his country and make his family proud.


Not only did he join to serve his country...he re-enlisted after we were already in Iraq.

Still think he had the same POV as his mom? Still think it's right for her to use him the way she is using him(her agenda, not his)?


His mother is not just dishonoring his memory....she's disgracing it.

[Nbadan]

Yeah Clinton was big on not doing anything...hence 911.

It wasn't just Clinton. It was also the Republican controlled legislature. When he bombed the supposed 'WMD' factory in Sudan and targets in Afghanistan he was accused of waging the dog by Congress. Do you seriously think the Senate would have allowed Clinton to go into Afghanistan and break the 24-7 Monica Lewingski coverage by the corporate media shills?

[whottt]

Another time Dan...I'd rather hear your opinion on the fact that this kid re-enlisted after we were already in Iraq...the fact that the mission he was killed on was one he did not have to go....

What do you think when you hear his mother calling Bush a murderer because her son died? Doesn't that sound just a little bit skewed?


I want your thoughts on the fact that his mom is a poster girl for Michael Moore...and she's screaming about war for profit...

Michael Moore being the individual who has gained more off the 911 tragedies and Iraq war, than just about anyone else I can think of.

No to mention the bank he got off of a bunch of kids dying in a high school tragedy(that one under a Crat administration)

[mookie2001]

moore was PAID before 9/11

bushs whole 04 campaign was on 9/11 and halliburton got Billion dollar contracts no questions asked

[whottt]

moore was PAID before 9/11

bushs whole 04 campaign was on 9/11 and halliburton got Billion dollar contracts no questions asked


Haliburton has been getting contracts, under every administration, since WWII. In case you don't know this, they specialize in supporting and supplying our military and did so in every major war but 1 in the past century...

Who would have rathered we hire? France?

[mookie2001]

no other company got to bid
Halliburton quoted their prices out of thin air and they got the job
i didnt know they were pro troop "supporters"
do they get the little ribbons too?

[Jelly]

Here is an open letter by this woman to George Bush...as I suspected...she's whoring her sons death out for her own beliefs.





I do not see one sentence there where she said her son was against this war and did not want to go over there in fight...

And believe me...the way this bitch goes for the jugular she certainly would be saying it if it were true.

She's a selfish woman and she's missing the point that her son was making. I mourn her loss, sincerely. But I have no respect for the way she chooses to use her sons death. She's the one saying he died for nothing, she's the one rendering his death meaningless. And she wants to make it even more meaningless.


I'd be more impressed with her stance if she was anti-Kerry as well...seeing as how he, along with the rest of congress, gave the President the power to take us into this war. And Kerry sat on the Senate intelligence commitee for a decade.

After reading that letter, I agree with you 100%. This woman is off her rocker and using her son's death to elicit sympathy and further her cause. She was probably an embarassment to him while he was alive and I doubt he'd appreciate what she's doing know. And you're right, if he had ever said anything against the war in a letter or email, she absolutely would be publicizing that now. He obviously didn't. She doesn't even stay on the topic of war, she starts spewing crap about Bush stealing elections. She's a political extremist who is exploiting her son's death. My sympathy for her has all but evaporated.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Clinton chickened out and pulled out of Somalia and didn't finish the job...he deserved to be spat on.

And Bush lied and got us into Iraq and he deserves to be spat on.

[Jelly]

Interesting that only the mother is speaking out. What is the father's position?

[Spurminator]

She has already met with the President once before, but it sounds like she has regrets about not confronting him when she had the chance.

Here is the article, linked on her website (http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/spkhntrca/bushart.html).


Sheehans meet President Bush

By David Henson/Staff Writer

Thursday, June 24, 2004 - Since learning in April that their son, Army Spc. Casey Sheehan, had been killed in Iraq, life has been everything but normal for the Sheehan family of Vacaville.

Casey's parents, Cindy and Patrick, as well as their three children, have attended event after event honoring the soldier both locally and abroad, received countless letters of support and fielded questions from reporters across the country.

"That's the way our whole lives have been since April 4," Patrick said. "It's been surreal."

But none of that prepared the family for the message left on their answering machine last week, inviting them to have a face-to-face meeting with President George W. Bush at Fort Lewis near Seattle.

Surreal soon seemed like an understatement, as the Sheehans - one of 17 families who met Thursday with Bush - were whisked in a matter of days to the Army post and given the VIP treatment from the military. But as their meeting with the president approached, the family was faced with a dilemma as to what to say when faced with Casey's commander-in-chief.

"We haven't been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. "The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached."

The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey's sacrifice would make the world a safer place.

But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act. In addition, Pat noted that Bush wasn't stumping for votes or trying to gain a political edge for the upcoming election.

"We have a lot of respect for the office of the president, and I have a new respect for him because he was sincere and he didn't have to take the time to meet with us," Pat said.

Sincerity was something Cindy had hoped to find in the meeting. Shortly after Casey died, Bush sent the family a form letter expressing his condolences, and Cindy said she felt it was an impersonal gesture.

"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis," Cindy said after their meeting. "I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith."

The meeting didn't last long, but in their time with Bush, Cindy spoke about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count for something. They also spoke of their faith.

While meeting with Bush, as well as Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, was an honor, it was almost a tangent benefit of the trip. The Sheehans said they enjoyed meeting the other families of fallen soldiers, sharing stories, contact information, grief and support.

For some, grief was still visceral and raw, while for others it had melted into the background of their lives, the pain as common as breathing. Cindy said she saw her reflection in the troubled eyes of each.

"It's hard to lose a son," she said. "But we (all) lost a son in the Iraqi war."

The trip had one benefit that none of the Sheehans expected.

For a moment, life returned to the way it was before Casey died. They laughed, joked and bickered playfully as they briefly toured Seattle.

For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again.

"That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together," Cindy said.

The website included photos of the Sheehan family with President Bush, but they have sense been removed.

http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/spkhntrca/cphpgbu.html

[whottt]

So you mean this woman actually has met W....and 4 months later he was a corrupt murderous tyrant? And now she wants another meeting?

How about we just make her Commander in Chief...that seems to be what she would approve of.

And pulling out of Iraq after doing a halfassed job....which means her son died for absolutely nothing.

[Nbadan]

The right-wing attack machine has gone to work against yet another war mom. Is anybody really surprised?


The Vacaville, California Reporter told of how Sheehan was invited to meet with Bush and given "VIP treatment" from the military. But even when the article was published, it's clear that Sheehan and her husband had serious questions about Bush -- and were not adulatory as the article by Drudge suggests.

<snip>

"We haven't been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. "The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached."

"...But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act.

"...We have a lot of respect for the office of the president, and I have a new respect for him because he was sincere and he didn't have to take the time to meet with us," Pat said.

More:Rawstory (http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Drudge_Report_grossly_misquotes_antiw_0808.html)

An article by Matt Drudge quoting anti-war mother Cindy Sheehan whose son was killed in Iraq grossly took Sheehan out of context, RAW STORY has learned. Sounds to me like Sheehan was already having regrets then about not confronting W with her reservations about the war. The right-wingers are making it sound like Cindy had a change of heart overnight.

[whottt]

Um...Dan...you do realize that article talking about how honored they were to meet the President...is posted on her own website?

Right wing propaganda indeed.

[whottt]

I guess it was right wing propaganda that lead her to remove the pictures of her and her family taken with the President as well....

[Nbadan]

Yeah, there is no conspiracy to get back at Sheehan

:rolleyes

Here is the way Matt Drudge is playing the Sheehan letter:


PROTESTING SOLDIER MOM CHANGED STORY ON BUSH
Mon Aug 08 2005 10:11:07 ET

The mother of a fallen U.S. soldier who is holding a roadside peace vigil near President Bush's ranch -- has dramatically changed her account about what happened when she met the commander-in-chief last summer!

Cindy Sheehan, 48, of Vacaville, Calif., who last year praised Bush for bringing her family the "gift of happiness," took to the nation's TV outlets this weekend to declare how Bush "killed an indispensable part of our family and humanity."

CINDY 2004

THE REPORTER of Vacaville, CA published an account of Cindy Sheehan's visit with the president at Fort Lewis near Seattle on June 24, 2004:

"'I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,' Cindy said after their meeting. 'I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith.'

"The meeting didn't last long, but in their time with Bush, Cindy spoke about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count for something. They also spoke of their faith.

"The trip had one benefit that none of the Sheehans expected.

"For a moment, life returned to the way it was before Casey died. They laughed, joked and bickered playfully as they briefly toured Seattle.

For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again.

"'That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together,' Cindy said."

CINDY 2005

Sheehan's current comments are a striking departure.

She vowed on Sunday to continue her protest until she can personally ask Bush: "Why did you kill my son?"

In an interview on CNN, she claimed Bush "acted like it was party" when she met him last year.

"It was -- you know, there was a lot of things said. We wanted to use the time for him to know that he killed an indispensable part of our family and humanity. And we wanted him to look at the pictures of Casey.

"He wouldn't look at the pictures of Casey. He didn't even know Casey's name. He came in the room and the very first thing he said is, 'So who are we honoring here?' He didn't even know Casey's name. He didn't want to hear it. He didn't want to hear anything about Casey. He wouldn't even call him 'him' or 'he.' He called him 'your loved one.'

Every time we tried to talk about Casey and how much we missed him, he would change the subject. And he acted like it was a party.

Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm)

You guys need to take your blinders off.

[Spurminator]

The article by David Henson is not online and was acquired by RAW STORY.

Um, yes it is... I just posted it.

http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/spkhntrca/bushart.html

Neither Drudge nor RawStory bothered to link it, choosing only to post out-of-context snippits.

Guess I scooped them both. All I had to do was look on her web page.



*ARTICLES*

*NEW*Fort Hood Knights of Columbus chapter dedicated in Casey's name
*NEW* Flag draped coffins return from Iraq
*"Sheehans meet with President Bush" Vacaville Reporter
*Family voices frustration"Vacaville Reporter 8/07/04

[Nbadan]

Um...Dan...you do realize that article talking about how honored they were to meet the President...is posted on her own website?

Right wing propaganda indeed.

It's all about context.

:hat

[Nbadan]

Um, yes it is... I just posted it.

http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/spkhntrca/bushart.html

Neither Drudge nor RawStory bothered to link it, choosing only to post out-of-context snippits.

Guess I scooped them both.

The angelfire article looks like it was put up overnight. Probably by an authorized source. So I don't blame RAWSTORY for not knowing about your link, but clearly Matt Drudge is spinning the Sheehan visit.

[whottt]

Dan please, in the name of sanity...

Clink on this link and read what is posted there. Read it very carefully.

58 (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=427491&postcount=58)

[Spurminator]

The angelfire article looks like it was put up overnight. Probably by an authorized source. So I don't blame RAWSTORY for not knowing about your link, but clearly Matt Drudge is spinning the Sheehan visit.

:lmao

Okay, whatever. I'm sure Karl Rove hacked her personal web page.

They're both spinning it. Period.



Sheehan is the new Terri Schiavo.

[whottt]

Looks like Dan got out of this one while the getting is good.

[Nbadan]

Dan please, in the name of sanity...

Clink on this link and read what is posted there. Read it very carefully.

58 (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=427491&postcount=58)

Have you read it carefully? Now go read snippits as it is presented by Drudge (http://www.drudgereport.com/flash4.htm)

[Nbadan]

"We haven't been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. "The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached."

Sounds to me like she had doubts.

[Nbadan]

:lmao

Okay, whatever. I'm sure Karl Rove hacked her personal web page.

They're both spinning it. Period.



Sheehan is the new Terri Schiavo.

Looks like your spinning it Sperminator.

[Spurminator]

How am I spinning it?

Like I said when I posted it, it looks like she regrets not confronting the President when she had the chance.

That's really all there is to it... Not much of a story, it's just funny seeing the version posted by mouthpieces on each side.

[Nbadan]

How am I spinning it?

Like I said when I posted it, it looks like she regrets not confronting the President when she had the chance.

That's really all there is to it... Not much of a story, it's just funny seeing the version posted by mouthpieces on each side.

Very interesting indeed, but I still don't see why W doesn't just drag his arse down the trail and meet with Ms.Sheehan and her supporters for a few minutes.

[mookie2001]

YEAH i know
hes on vacation he cant go outside and talk

[Jelly]

"'That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together,' Cindy said."

That's a really weird thing to credit the president for. It sounds like she practically worshipped him on that occasion and that is just bizarre. The president should be neither worshipped nor villified. First she views him as some kind of angel, now he's a devil. This woman is starting to sound bipolar to me.
I'm still asking...what does the father have to say?

[Spurminator]

She's grieving... I'm not going to judge the degrees of her reactions over the past year.

I am going to judge the perpetuators of the inevitable circus that is going to form around her over the next couple of weeks, though.

[Nbadan]

She's grieving... I'm not going to judge the degrees of her reactions over the past year.

I am going to judge the perpetuators of the inevitable circus that is going to form around her over the next couple of weeks, though.

The anti-war movement has been waiting for someone like Sheehan. It takes much bravado to do what she is doing and people with like causes are going to be attracted to her message. It will turn into a circus if not diffused, but its a message for peace. Is that so bad?

[Spurminator]

No, it's not. I happen to believe it is American dissent at its finest. Unfortunately, she is going to be sucked dry from partisans on both sides who will lionize and villify her simultaneously.

[whottt]

The anti-war movement has been waiting for someone like Sheehan. It takes much bravado to do what she is doing and people with like causes are going to be attracted to her message. It will turn into a circus if not diffused, but its a message for peace. Is that so bad?

Wanting peace is a great thing...but it's not something you are likely to get until both sides want it. If you just want to be slaughtered or enslaved which is what happens when only one side wants peace...then go ahead and do...no one is preventing you from doing it. But the rest of us don't want that.

Where the anti-war movement is severely misguided is in thinking that everyone just wants to sit around and sing kumbuya with each other. That is not the way the world is Dan. That is not the way Radical Islam is Dan...

And if those countries over there can't control their incredibly dark anti-life movement calling itself Islam...then we have the right to go over there and kick the living shit out of them until they are tired of fighting, ...or dead. Our society being progressive and technologically advanced gives us that right. Such is the way of nature...

The detriment comes from our anti-war movement which prevents us from fully utlizing our full force to exterminate our enemies...

Still..I respect the peaceful voice and would never want to see it silenced...for without it the only voice would be violence...but that doesn't mean an Anti-War Stance is always right...anymore than a pro-war stance is always right...in fact, there are very few stances and philosophies that are always right.

Meanwhile...the left has become ideologically hysterical...it's not so much what you are saying...but how you are saying it...and the vile and venom that you are saying it with hardly comes off as a peaceful movement...and the resulting reaction from the majority of Americans has been similar to what a normal person would do when dealing with a hysterical person...listen to them as long as possible...and then slap them upside the head so they'll get a fucking grip.

The fact that W sits in the white house now was the American people slapping the hysteria of the left upside the head...All you had to do was sit there and W would have been gone....instead you made yourself worse than he was. Nobody wants a bunch of nut jobs running the country...they'll take the greedy sane ones every time.

[JoeChalupa]

Wanting peace is a great thing...but it's not something you are likely to get until both sides want it. If you just want to be slaughtered or enslaved which is what happens when only one side wants peace...then go ahead and do...no one is preventing you from doing it. But the rest of us don't want that.

Where the anti-war movement is severely misguided is in thinking that everyone just wants to sit around and sing kumbuya with each other. That is not the way the world is Dan. That is not the way Radical Islam is Dan...

And if those countries over there can't control their incredibly dark anti-life movement calling itself Islam...then we have the right to go over there and kick the living shit out of them until they are tired of fighting, ...or dead. Our society being progressive and technologically advanced gives us that right. Such is the way of nature...

The detriment comes from our anti-war movement which prevents us from fully utlizing our full force to exterminate our enemies...

Still..I respect the peaceful voice and would never want to see it silenced...for without it the only voice would be violence...but that doesn't mean an Anti-War Stance is always right...anymore than a pro-war stance is always right...in fact, there are very few stances and philosophies that are always right.

Meanwhile...the left has become ideologically hysterical...it's not so much what you are saying...but how you are saying it...and the vile and venom that you are saying it with hardly comes off as a peaceful movement...and the resulting reaction from the majority of Americans has been similar to what a normal person would do when dealing with a hysterical person...listen to them as long as possible...and then slap them upside the head so they'll get a fucking grip.

The fact that W sits in the white house now was the American people slapping the hysteria of the left upside the head...All you had to do was sit there and W would have been gone....instead you made yourself worse than he was. Nobody wants a bunch of nut jobs running the country...they'll take the greedy sane ones every time.

Good post. Thus my point that the "left" has become a "bad thing" to be. And notice the reference of "the left" as a bad thing.
Not everyone on the "left" fits the description of what conservatives want everyone to think the "left" is.
No more than "conservative" means bible-thumping, NASCAR race watching, gun-toting, anti-immigrant, neocon war hawks.

[Nbadan]

Wanting peace is a great thing...but it's not something you are likely to get until both sides want it. If you just want to be slaughtered or enslaved which is what happens when only one side wants peace...then go ahead and do...no one is preventing you from doing it. But the rest of us don't want that.

Where the anti-war movement is severely misguided is in thinking that everyone just wants to sit around and sing kumbuya with each other. That is not the way the world is Dan. That is not the way Radical Islam is Dan...

And if those countries over there can't control their incredibly dark anti-life movement calling itself Islam...then we have the right to go over there and kick the living shit out of them until they are tired of fighting, ...or dead. Our society being progressive and technologically advanced gives us that right. Such is the way of nature...

The detriment comes from our anti-war movement which prevents us from fully utlizing our full force to exterminate our enemies...

We tried that approach once in Vietnam. Dropped more tonnage of bombs than we did in all of WW2 and look where it got us. We are losing the peace in Iraq because we didn't take the time to research the culture and understand the complete geo-political situation in the region before we went in, but I regress.

People want peace. It wasn't Saddam Hussein or Iraq who attacked or were any way, shape, or form planning to attack the U.S. or it's interest. And that's what it all comes down too. We attacked a country that had no WMD's. No plan to attack the U.S. and was not involved in international terrorism or Al Queda. Before we start spewing venom about how vile those 'Islamists' are, maybe we ought to take some time and look at our own actions in the region. Did our invasion plans have the safety of the Iraqi people and their resources protected? Was there a plan to reduce the number of civilian casualties? Did we guard weapons depots left empty by retreating Saddam forces? Why did we disband Saddam's army and his police force only to later have to recall elements of the Army because of lawless-ness and the growing insurgency.

It's never our fault with you war-mongers.

[Spurminator]

The Vacaville Reporter article has been removed from Sheehan's website. (Though it's still referenced on the Home Page)

Fortunately, the Reporter's website has re-published it here.

http://www.thereporter.com/search/ci_2923921

[whottt]

Dammit, I was going to make a post asking how long it will take for that article to come down.

[whottt]

Let's keep our ears open to see if she claims the US government had illegally posted it on her website(so people arguing on message boards could use it against her)...or if it never gets mentioned again.

[Nbadan]

Let's keep our ears open to see if she claims the US government had illegally posted it on her website(so people arguing on message boards could use it against her)...or if it never gets mentioned again.

No big conspiracy. As I told you before, the report Sperminator link to looked unauthorized. With the number of hits the column is generating it was only a matter of time before the original author cracked down on unauthorized publication.

What does the column prove? That Sheehan had reservations about the Iraq war in 04 despite making semi-delusional statements to the contrary?

[Spurminator]

What would be the point of putting an unauthorized copy of the article on Sheehan's personal website? Particularly since no one seemed to know about it? Wouldn't this have been broken on Drudge too?

Anyway, it's still referenced on the site...

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5262/sheehansite6vb.gif

[Spurminator]

Wait, nevermind, you're saying the paper contacted Sheehan and had it removed. I see what you're getting at now. At least I hope...

[JohnnyMarzetti]

http://www.bartcop.com/crawford21.jpg

Bush enjoyed his 321st day of vacation yesterday since taking office in January 2001.
Rumors that the president is attempting to honor each and every fallen G.I. in Iraq by
taking a day off in their honor have been flatly denied.

A statistician from Cal State has shown any such attempt would be impossible.

"Bush could take the rest of his second term off starting tomorrow and it wouldn't begin
to approach the number of fallen soldiers. This is not counting the number of our military
members who will die between now and the end of Bush's remaining term!" he added.

Thank God for term limits.

[Spurminator]

Yes, more with the vacation bit. Because it's so relevant.

[Vashner]

Don't join if you don't want uncle sam to own your ass. It says it on the papers you sign...

[Spurminator]

he cares so much he's going on vacation...again

This isn't Wal-Mart. He doesn't have a register to tend. Like most upper-level jobs, the President can do his job with a cell phone and email.

Why is it that some of you cannot comprehend "working from home"? Is it a deliberate act? Are you trying to fool the LCD with lowbrow rhetoric, or are you one of them?

[Nbadan]

Day 3: Letter from Cindy Sheehan


Where do I begin?

Today was a highly eventful day. This entry won’t be artful, but utilitarian.

I conservatively got 3 to 5 phone calls a minute. I did about 25 phone interviews and several TV interviews. I did several right-wing radio interviews. I was supposed to do: The Today Show, MSNBC live interview, Connected Coast to Coast (MSNBC) and Hardball (MSNBC). The Today Show just never showed up and the other 3 MSNBC shows cancelled for no reason.

Another big story that was going on today was about my first meeting with Bush in June of 2004. For you all I would like to clarify a few things. First of all, I did meet with George, and that is not a secret. I have written about it and been interviewed about it. I will stand by my recounting of the meeting. His behavior was rude and inappropriate. My behavior in June of 2004 is irrelevant to what is going on in 2005. I was in deep shock and deep grief. The grief is still there, but the shock has worn off and the deep anger has set in. And to remind everybody, a few things have happened since June of 2004: The 9/11 commission report; the Senate Intelligence report; the Duelfer WMD report; and most damaging and criminal: the Downing Street Memos. The VERY LAST THING I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS IS: Why do the right wing media so assiduously scrutinize the words of a grief filled mother and ignore the words of a lying president?

Meet With Cindy (http://www.meetwithcindy.org/)

[mookie2001]

Bush works for me
and i dont think this is a time to take a vacation

[Bandit2981]

Why is it that some of you cannot comprehend "working from home"?
I thought it was a vacation?

[mookie2001]

his home is Kennebunkport Maine, offically
sorry i cant spell Kennebunkport

[whottt]

Bush should be like all those Democratic Presidents who never took vacations during wars...like um...................

[mookie2001]

unlimited vacations for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
war is hard on a president
he needs his corridor

[whottt]

Michael Moore tell us how to think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you make millions and get ever and ever fatter off the dead of 911 and the subsequent wars.

[mookie2001]

Moore doesnt tell me shit bitch
look up how many books he sold pre 9/11 and how much his movies made pre 9/11
bush got a whole term from it
and then he got to invade iraq
PROFIT buddy

[Spurminator]

I thought it was a vacation?

Do you really think his workload changes? Who cares what they're calling it?

(See, this is the thing with usual anti-Bush rhetoric... Even those of us who don't really like him all that much find themselves defending him. It speaks to Joe Chalupas points in his thread and I believe it's a big part of the reason Democrats keep losing elections despite the public's opinion of Republicans and their platforms being generally low.)

[mookie2001]

republican rhetoric is calling all questioning of the government, war, president and republicans, "anti-bush rhetoric"

[Bandit2981]

Do you really think his workload changes? Who cares what they're calling it?

(See, this is the thing with usual anti-Bush rhetoric... Even those of us who don't really like him all that much find themselves defending him. It speaks to Joe Chalupas points in his thread and I believe it's a big part of the reason Democrats keep losing elections despite the public's opinion of Republicans and their platforms being generally low.)
Calm down. I was asking a question...I thought he was going on a vacation and NOT working, at least thats what the television at my work with Fox News on was implying...He was cutting down trees, riding bikes, and playing with Barney. Congress is out of session, the Supreme Court is in recess, I guess i thought he was going to be out of commision for a month as well like the other branches of government are. My bad if you know he's working the phone lines and email in there just like he would in D.C.

[Spurminator]

Yeah, and that's why most people don't like Republicans either.

[mookie2001]

i like when rush and hannity call liberals "elitist"
its like that kid in school who called everyone gaylord fags to cover up his Milhouse-like blatent homsexuality

[Spurminator]

Given that the other branches of government are out of service, now is a good time to be away from the office.

But did you really think he simply wasn't taking any calls either? Come on, you know better. I have supervisors making less than 6 figures who take calls and check email on vacation. He's the President of the United States.

[Bandit2981]

i like when rush and hannity call liberals "elitist"
i like when Rush calls Clinton a draft dodger when Rush himself got an exemption because of a pimple in his ass crack. look it up on snopes.

[mookie2001]

exactly who does he need an official vacation
he could sit at the WH all day eating chocolate pie while Laura cuts chicken up to fry
he knows itll get coverage and he knows we're at war
the one he started

[whottt]

Moore doesnt tell me shit bitch
look up how many books he sold pre 9/11 and how much his movies made pre 9/11

Pre 911 the most a Michael Moore film had ever made was 649,000 dollars.


Post 911:
Bowling for Columbine made 70 million(much of it after his Academy Award spectacle where he made a fat ass of himself).

Farenheit 911 made 223 million.



bush got a whole term from it
and then he got to invade iraq


I am sure every other President in history is jealous that 3000 Americans weren't killed when the World Trade Center wasn't blownup early in their term....because that's always been popular with the American Public.

And yeah cuz...going to war has always been popular in this country as well.




PROFIT buddy

Ok Farenheit 911 cost 6 million to make and grossed 223 million(not counting video)..
Link:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361596/business


Now show me how much Bush has made...

[Bandit2981]

I never knew Whottttt was anti-capitalist

[whottt]

I'm not...I'm anti-hypocrite.

[Bandit2981]

Then you should be anti-politics!

[mookie2001]

bowling for colombine wasnt about 9/11 at all
the contracts haliburton has in iraq is worth Billions

bushs whole campaign in 04 was based on 9/11 and you know it
neocons cream on themselves everytime he says the dam word "9/11" and he knows it
he brings it up when it has nothing to do with the question hes answering

[whottt]

republican rhetoric is calling all questioning of the government, war, president and republicans, "anti-bush rhetoric"

And Democratic Rhetoric is calling Republicans, racists, Nazis, war mongers, burning flags, politicing wars etc, accusing them of commiting 911 themselves, while apologizing for terrorists and dictators...and then wondering why people think they seem kind of anti-American and won't give them the whitehouse and government.

[whottt]

bowling for colombine wasnt about 9/11
Guns and Death...Guns and Death.

And for Columbine wasn't exactly a box office champ prior to Moore's anti-Bush tirade at the Academy awards.

It's not anywhere near farenheit 911 in terms of profit.



at all
the contracts haliburton has in iraq is worth Billions

I wasn't aware Bush worked for Haliburton...




bushs whole campaign in 04 was based on 9/11 and you know it

And Kerry's whole campaign was based on denouncing a war that he voted for....




neocons cream on themselves everytime he says the dam word "9/11" and he knows it

And Democrats cream themselves every time they hear about another terrorist attack or a US Soldier dies...that gives them an excuse to bash Bush.

No doubt about it...the Democrats would rather see America fail than Bush succeed...I just wish I knew for sure that's the only reason Democrats want to see America fail.



he brings it up when it has nothing to do with the question hes answering

911 is going to define him until he's dead.

[mookie2001]

they are more racist than non republicans
(in general)
i wouldnt call them nazis but the patriot act does have many "papers please" provisions
and people love to call him their leader, have "my leader" stickers and ive seen a bush billboard with "our leader" written across it
what is the german translation for my leader?
the war is politcal, bush created it so the GOP could say "dont change horses in mid stream"

[whottt]

Then you should be anti-politics!

I pretty much am...

But it's still my country so I just choose between the lesser of two hypocrites.

[mookie2001]

you did it man
you said democrats want the US to lose in Iraq
congrats i thought it would take you longer to start using the sean hannity playbook

[mookie2001]

i dont like kerry either dude
why do yall always start scoffing kerry like i give a shit
yeah i was rooting for him but he was a bad canidate
the same way id root for A&M if theyre playing oklahoma

[whottt]

they are more racist than non republicans
(in general)
i wouldnt call them nazis but the patriot act does have many "papers please" provisions
and people love to call him their leader, have "my leader" stickers and ive seen a bush billboard with "our leader" written across it
what is the german translation for my leader?
the war is politcal, bush created it so the GOP could say "dont change horses in mid stream"


The jokes on you...Democrats have been by far the most racist party in our countries history, even in modern times.


The Republicans aren't racist...they just aren't anti-white...

Oh wait...I forgot that's the same that as being racist in todays world.

Just do me a favor...go study history some time and tell me where non-whites would be if not for the Republican party.

[mookie2001]

yeah bc lincoln was a republican and dems take minorites "for granted" and think they need public assistance
yeah i listen to woai too man, heard it before

[Bandit2981]

The jokes on you...Democrats have been by far the most racist party in our countries history, even in modern times.

:lmao :rollin

[whottt]

yeah bc lincoln was a republican and dems take minorites "for granted" and think they need public assistance
yeah i listen to woai too man, heard it before


The founder of the KKK was a Democrat...

50 years before Lincoln, John Quincy Adams, the original Republican(another President who didn't win the popular vote) put down a bill that would have made illegal to ever free the slaves...excuse me, the Bill would have made it illegal to even discuss it.

The first modern legislation concerning civil rights was pushed for by Republican President Dwight Eisenhowser...

When Martin Luther King started marching for equality and Civil Rights the first two white people(IE celebrities) of note to join his cause...

Were American War Hero, best friend of George Bush Senior, and Republican loyalist to the core, Ted Williams. Well that's not exactly true...since Williams was half hispanic...at his HOF induction.

And staunch ass Republican and former President of the NRA, Chalrton Heston was the first white celebrity to join him on his civil rights marches.

The 1964 Civil Rights amendment was pused through congress by Republican Seante Minority Leader Everett McKinley Dirksen.

The overwhelming majority of Republicans in Congress supported the amendment...while a good portion of the Democrats voted against it.

Here is the voting breakdown for you:

By Party: The Original House Version:

Democratic Party: 153-96
Republican Party: 138-34
The Senate Version:

Democratic Party: 46-22
Republican Party: 27-6
The Senate Version, voted on by the House:

Democratic Party: 153-91
Republican Party: 136-35


You know who one of the leaders of the fillibuster again opponents against the 64 Civil Rights amendment was?

Al Gore Senior...that's right...the Daddy of Clinton's VP.


But he wasn't the leader of it....Robert Byrd was...

Yeah that's Robert Byrd...the Ex Klansman who is still in Congress to this day, and held the highest position a Democratic Senator could hold as recently as 3 years ago.


But that's just the white racists...

That doesn't include the anti-semites Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.




No...the Democratic Party is by far the more racist and always has been...Democrats are just stupid and believe anything someone tells them...they play race favorites to get votes...that doesn't mean they aren't racist.

[whottt]

:lmao :rollin


Enjoy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd


...idiot.

[Bandit2981]

Anyone can single out a person and then try to generalize a whole group from it. For your Robert Byrds, I have Strom Thurmonds. For your Al Sharptons, I have Jerry Falwells. The group as a whole is what you should be looking at, not the actions of a few scattered people here and there.

[whottt]

Strom Thurmond started out as a Democrat. Just like Joe McCarthy.

And no, all things are not equal...you go look at history and the racism exists overwhelmingly on the side of the Democratic Party...from the beginning of our country...to the Klansman that sits in congress to this day.

This is not to be confused with the Klansman that FDR appointed to the Supreme Court.

And David Duke started out as a Democrat too...

[Clandestino]

i'm not even going to read the thread.. but i say fuck this whore for pulling this shit.. her on died serving voluntarily... end of story...

[Nbadan]

All this could come to a head Thursday...

Cindy Sheehan to Be Arrested Thursday
by David Swanson
Mon Aug 8th, 2005 at 09:49:41 PDT


Cindy Sheehan phoned me from Texas a few minutes ago to say that she's been informed that beginning Thursday, she and her companions will be considered a threat to national security and will be arrested. Coincidentally, Thursday is the day that Rice and Rumsfeld visit the ranch, and Friday is a fundraiser event for the haves and the have mores. Cindy said that she and others plan to be arrested.

Daily Kos (http://dailykos.com/story/2005/8/8/124941/6758)

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050807/i/r4178299075.jpg

If Sheehan is arrested as a threat to National Security, then our leaders should be fired for a lack of competence.

[whottt]

It's going to be stupid if they arrest her, I'd rather they didn't...Hopefully they'll be smart enough not to do it. They need to leave though and stop with the grandstanding.

[mookie2001]

if she gets 1 inch outside that "protest zone"
lock her ass up for treason!!

[Nbadan]

Clear Channel stations are hosting a Pro-Bush/anti-Cindy Sheehan rally in Crawford and are inviting troops from Ft. Hood to come speak out against Cindy.


Update <2005-8-10 14:38:27 by patrioticliberal>: As someone posted below in a comment (JUST CONFIRMED), KLFX ("KLFX 107.3 The Fox Rocks") and their group stations, as well as KWTX 1230 AM (Waco) - 1-254-776-3900 (FOX NEWS RADIO), 102.5 FM,, and one more that is forgotten at this time, will be at the PRO-BUSH/ANTI-SHEEHAN rally. They are owned by Clear Channel. The Anti-Sheehan BBQ will be in the lot next to Crawford Bank, free burgers, soft drinks ("Coca-Cola"), and everything Saturday at NOON. a host named "JACK HAMMER" will be there and apparently is helping with this event. They are inviting soldiers from the Fort Hood area to come down and say that they would be ashamed of their mother if she did what Mrs. Sheehan is doing. Protest to KLFX! Their number is 1-254-699-5000, and YES, I'm keeping that number here. It's also publicly accessible

Is this outrageous or what?

[Nbadan]

Well, the good news from Camp Crawford is that police officials are now denying that they plan to arrest Cindy anytime soon. Also, the Clear Channel stations that were holding their 'support our troops' rally in Crawford has canceled the concert for now. Here is a statement by one of the station managers:


"Armstrong, Evan" <[email protected] > wrote:

In no way are making a PR event out of Cindy Sheehan's loss. This is a pro troops rally and we have had Cindy Sheehan on KWTX-AM last Monday to voice her cause. Thanks for your response. We welcome everyones opinion on this matter.

LATER, BACKPEDDLING:

Armstrong, Evan" <[email protected] > wrote: Please be advised that due to lack of local interest, the pro-troop rally tentatively scheduled by KWTX-AM, KLFX-FM for this coming Saturday will not be taking place. Please tune into KWTX-AM, KLFX-FM on Monday for comprehensive news coverage and commentary on developments related to the Iraq war protest organized by Mrs. Cindy Sheehan, scheduled to be held in Crawford this Saturday.

A lack of interest? Hummm.

:hat

[Dos]

why is free speech outrageous... probably because it's not left leaning... oh well!!

[whottt]

US troops are not allowed to have a partisan role in politics. IE they can't go around demonstrating.

Plus...conservatives have never been the protest movement...that movement is entirely liberal. A protest doesn't make someone the majority...it just makes them the loudest voice...which is probably why they think Bush isn't going to be re-elected when they see a lot of protests...and then are surprised when they get their ass handed to them in the Elections.

The baby that cries the most gets the most attention...that doesn't mean it's the only baby.


People were protesting Blair and Howard as well...leading most to conclude that those countries were blatantly anti-American...

Yet when the referendum on the war was held...they all got re-elected...

And my guess is that Schroder and Chiraq, the anti-Americans won't...I am not sure about Chirac...they are genuinely anti-American France and always have been...Chiraq's anti-Americanism actually could get him re-elected.

But it's going to be funny if, by the time the interntional referendum is over...all the pro-American leaders got re-elected...and all the anti-American ones are kicked out on their ass.

I think America is like the Dallas Cowboys...both the most hated and the most popular..but more popular than hated...I think it's the same way with these anti-war protest...I think their extreme stance isn't a majority stance..that's why they have to use sensationalistic stunts to get noticed.

[MannyIsGod]

Who fucking cares is my response to this entire thread.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

US troops are not allowed to have a partisan role in politics. IE they can't go around demonstrating.

Plus...conservatives have never been the protest movement...that movement is entirely liberal. A protest doesn't make someone the majority...it just makes them the loudest voice...which is probably why they think Bush isn't going to be re-elected when they see a lot of protests...and then get their ass handed to them in the Elections.

The baby that cries the most gets the most attention...that doesn't mean it's the only baby.

WTF!?!? I guess all those right to life protesters at abortion clinics aren't really there? Please. :rolleyes

[Jekka]

Plus...conservatives have never been the protest movement...that movement is entirely liberal.

Because no one has ever protested at gay pride parades or abortion clinics.

[whottt]

touche...but I still see a lot more liberals protesting and causes than vice versa...and it was the liberals that first made it mainstream.


And those anti-abortion activists and anti-gay activists are just as stupid....and probably in the minority in this country.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Yeah, conservatives never did protest blacks going to school or trying to vote.
No, they never were the protesting type.

[whottt]

Those were Democrats doing that protesting buddy. Check your history.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

And those anti-abortion activists and anti-gay activists are just as stupid....and probably in the minority in this country.

I thought those were the true "conservatives" of the republican party.

[whottt]

Right...just like it was the Republicans that rounded up all the Japanese Amaricans during WWII and put them in interment camps.

[MannyIsGod]

Comparing party deeds to the deeds of the parties of the same name from decades past is foolish. Neither party is nowhere near what they were. Now we just have a useless pile of shit that likes with multiple personality disorder.

[JoeChalupa]

I concur.

[whottt]

Do me a favor..


Ernest Hollings
Orval Faubus
George Wallace
Lester Maddox
Al Gore Sr
Robert Byrd

Those were the leading segregationists...go look at which political party they belonged too.

Then go look and see who the first person was to de-segregate a segregated school. See what his politcal party was.

[whottt]

Comparing party deeds to the deeds of the parties of the same name from decades past is foolish. Neither party is nowhere near what they were. Now we just have a useless pile of shit that likes with multiple personality disorder.



Um...the Senior Democrat in Congress is an ex Klansman who fillibustered against the 1964 Civil Rights amendment...

He's still in congress...he opposed Condoleza Rice as the NSA...he opposed Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court...

[whottt]

And it's not the same...the Democrats pull the race card every chance they get, with their Klansman Pro Tempore..the Republicans don't.

[MannyIsGod]

Well thats fucking dandy. If you're trying to use that as an arguement that Republicans are pro minoirty, I'm going to laugh because thats one hell of a good joke.

I don't care what they did 40 years ago, I care what they do now. And well, both of the parties exploit minorities and then forget about them.

[whottt]

They aren't pro-minority you are right...but they aren't anti-minority either, they are generally against any kind of favoritism or discrimination based on race....that's not being racist...it's just not being racist.

[Jekka]

whottt, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by equating liberal with Democrat and conservative with Republican - especially within historical context.

[MannyIsGod]

Why pick on brown people when you can pick on gay people instead?

[whottt]

Well thats fucking dandy. If you're trying to use that as an arguement that Republicans are pro minoirty, I'm going to laugh because thats one hell of a good joke.

I don't care what they did 40 years ago, I care what they do now. And well, both of the parties exploit minorities and then forget about them.

And I've never exactly seen the Republicans accused of pandering to get the minority vote...that's the reason they get the racist label...

The Democrats switched from being anti-minority to portraying themselves as pro-minority...they have a history of playing race favorites...

The Republicans don't have a history of playing any kind of race favorites...but they do have a history of being against slavery and segregation....they have a history of promoting equal rights, not preferential rights...The Democrats are the ones that use minorities and they always have been, one way or another....

I realize they aren't the same ones as 40 years ago...but it's just funny that the Republicans have the racist label, when they have done to more to bring racial equality to this country while the Democrats have usually been opposed to it...it's just ironic.

But hey, as long as they tell you what you want to hear right?

And it's so easy to portray those conservative, whitebread, god-fearing Americans as the racists...when their major crime is not being image saavy..

[MannyIsGod]

You've never seen Republicans pandering to the minority vote? Give me a fucking break. You're turning into Minivore here.

[whottt]

whottt, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by equating liberal with Democrat and conservative with Republican - especially within historical context.

Republicans have never been liberals, they have always been conservative...Democrats used to be more conservative...but they have always been considered the liberal party of the two.

Well people like to say the parties switched platforms in the 1960's...but that's not what really occured..the Democrats just went from being anti-minority, to pro-minority(in words) I call it a PR move...

And the white supremacists started jumping to the Republican side, not because they were racist...but because they weren't pro minority...

But the ultra religious conservatives WERE the ones against slavery, and even though they weren't de-segregationists...they ended up being the first to de-segregate as well.


And what do you guys mean brown people?

Mexicans have never been discriminated against in this country like Blacks...there was never a color barrier against Mexicans....yeah if they looked black there was...but it had nothing to do with what country they were from.

There was never color barrier against Mexicans in pro sports...they were never slaves in this country...

Fuck the Aztecs had enslaved every native tribe in Central America...

There is a whole world of difference between blacks and mexicans having minority status...Mexicans owned land in Texas from forever...those that fought against Mexico got to keep their lands.

Even native North American Indians never faced the descrimination blacks did.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, tell that to members of my family who were discriminated against in much the same way blacks were. Tell them it didn't happen. I would LOVE to see that.

[whottt]

You've never seen Republicans pandering to the minority vote? Give me a fucking break. You're turning into Minivore here.


No I haven't...which is why they don't get it...and get the label of being the racist party. I mean it just depends on who the voting base is...

[whottt]

Yeah, tell that to members of my family who were discriminated against in much the same way blacks were. Tell them it didn't happen. I would LOVE to see that.


By the government? Or just people in general? You can't make people like other people they don't want to like.

And in general..people are going to be racists and have a preference for their own race....You will never beat that...you will damn sure never beat it by bonding together with racial bonds.

You know there is a restaurant here in Austin called Matt's El Rancho...

I was in a crew of the first white waiters to work for that restaurant in it's 25 years of existence....and belive me...I got a good healthy dose of what it feels like to be discriminated against.

But still not like the blacks...like when ole Matt Martinez made me write down on an aplication that a guy that came in and applied for a job was black.


Tell me it doesn't happy Manny...it's not a white or a mexican or a black thing...it's a people thing....it's a mankind thing...races discriminate against other races.

Don't even get me started on when I worked for some Koreans....



But the blacks were fucking enslaved and not allowed equality...government sanctioned racism...it's not the same thing.

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Aug-17-Tue-2004/news/24517116.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05196/538309.stm
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/11/Worldandnation/Gov_Bush_tries_to_del.shtml
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/2391.html

Took me about 1 minute. But you know, who really comes to mind when I think of a specific instance of a republican trying to pander to a minority?

George P. Bush.

[JoeChalupa]

whottt, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by equating liberal with Democrat and conservative with Republican - especially within historical context.

Great point. I'm conservative on issues like national security, strengthening our borders and the war on terrorism. But liberal on social issues, civil liberties (yes, I truly am), the environment.

So basically I'm just myself but will still tend to vote democrat.

[Vashner]

I got an idea... don't join the army if you don't want to fight...

There are plenty of jobs that will pay you the same money or more.. or go to school.

[whottt]

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Aug-17-Tue-2004/news/24517116.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05196/538309.stm
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/11/Worldandnation/Gov_Bush_tries_to_del.shtml
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/2391.html

Took me about 1 minute. But you know, who really comes to mind when I think of a specific instance of a republican trying to pander to a minority?

George P. Bush.

W is pro Mexican...it's not a pandering thing...that's the way he is. Doesn't he have brother in Law that's Mexican? Or maybe it's Cuban.

The motherfucker is in trouble with his own party, and Democrats for his stance on the border. What you think is pandering is actually a genuine voter base whose support he seeks...my guess is because Mexicans are mostly catholic and actually have very conservative religious beliefs...on top of that a lot of Mexican immigrants buy heavily into the patriotic aspect of this country.

After September 11th when I went to SA to take a physical to join the Army...100% of the guys trying out for the Marines in my recruit class were Mexicans.

No I think there is a legimate political base there among the Mexican American community, and to a lesser extent the hispanic community, that has a similar ideology to the conservative mindset...and that's why W seeks it...I don't see him changing anything on his conservative views to get that vote..His border stance is very liberal...but I think that's got more to do with business and cheap labor than it does with vote pandering. In short I don't think he's just trying to tell people what they want to hear to get votes...I don't see him promising preferential treatment....the true definition of pandering. And you can't even claim Reagan was a race panderer.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol I highlighted the P on purpose.

[whottt]

I still don't get it. P for Pro?


Edit: The thing is...pandering works...if W were doing it, he'd be a hell of a lote more popular than he is....He's an asshole...not a panderer.

[JoeChalupa]

I got an idea... don't join the army if you don't want to fight...

There are plenty of jobs that will pay you the same money or more.. or go to school.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said...
"My son is serving in Iraq so yours can be in college."

[Guru of Nothing]

3.Those who act like it's a virtue to render themselves irrelevant, and enjoy their view from the peanut gallery(IE the sidelines)

[MannyIsGod]

That is the name of his hispanic nephew that campaigns with him all the damn time. The Bush's love to recyle names. It's one big family of George and Barbaras.

And the main group behind Bush's border plans and forgien worker program is the lobby that stands to benefit from the continued use of cheap labor. He plays it up to be a liberal way to appease hispanic voters, but thats not the driving force behind it.

[Dos]

didn't bush get like almost 50 percent of hispanic vote this last election.. I think his numbers with hispanics was pretty high.... someone can look it up.. I would be interested in knowing... plus being a hispanic male... I voted for W....

[MannyIsGod]

I still don't get it. P for Pro?


Edit: The thing is...pandering works...if W were doing it, he'd be a hell of a lote more popular than he is....He's an asshole...not a panderer.
He got a lot more of the Hispanic vote (nearly half) and saw an increase in black votes as well. So pandering does indeed work.

[MannyIsGod]

didn't bush get like almost 50 percent of hispanic vote this last election.. I think his numbers with hispanics was pretty high.... someone can look it up.. I would be interested in knowing... plus being a hispanic male... I voted for W....
Yes, he got nearly half, 44%

[JoeChalupa]

This hispanic male voted for Kerry.

[whottt]

That doesn't mean he was pandering...Pandering is promising preferential treatment. I never saw him do it.

And I don't think he ever tried to pass off his border stance as liberal...he pretty much says it's for cheap labor. And that's probably a popular POV with big business here in Texas.

I just think the Democratic Party got too liberal for some minorities...

He damn sure wasn't pandering to the gay vote now was he?

[MannyIsGod]

Joe sometimes reminds me of those "bots" that you can talk to on the internet but inevitably end up repeating things over and over. In Joe's case, that he voted for Kerry and has conservative feelings as well as liberal feelings which is why he considers himself a Democrat with the ocassional Semper Fi! thrown in for good measure.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

No, everyone hates the gays.

[Nbadan]

Something's In The Air/But Its Not On The Airwaves (http://chrisvids.org/airwaves.html)

[Nbadan]

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/hey_cindy.jpg

Day 6:


Bush gets first look at anti-war protest near ranch
By Patricia Wilson
Reuters
Friday, August 12, 2005; 1:16 PM


CRAWFORD, Texas (Reuters) - President Bush got his first look at an anti-war vigil near his ranch on Friday as his motorcade took him by the protest site lined with small white crosses representing fallen American soldiers in Iraq.

When Bush's black sport utility vehicle carried him past the site to a Republican fund-raiser, the protest leader, Cindy Sheehan, whose son was one of the nearly 1,850 U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, held up a sign that said: "Why do you make time for donors and not for me?"

Other signs said: "Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam" and "Bring Them Home Now." Some protesters held up white crosses as well.

Well, it only took 6 days and a Republican fundraiser to get W to even drive by Cindy Sheehan, now if they can only get him to stop.

The protest vigil began last Saturday and is being led by Sheehan, who has been demanding a meeting with Bush to discuss her opposition to the Iraq war.

[JoeChalupa]

Joe sometimes reminds me of those "bots" that you can talk to on the internet but inevitably end up repeating things over and over. In Joe's case, that he voted for Kerry and has conservative feelings as well as liberal feelings which is why he considers himself a Democrat with the ocassional Semper Fi! thrown in for good measure.

:lol Yeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!

[JoeChalupa]

Another "Semper Fi!"

And I'm not doing this to protest the war but as a reminder of the sacrifice of those who proudly serve.

http://www.bradmesser.com/images2005b/boy_at_funeral.jpg
Alexander Montgomery, 1-year-old son of Lance Cpl. Brian Montgomery, looks toward Marine pallbearers standing next to his father’s casket. Montgomery was killed in Iraq last week.

Be proud little man.

[Gerryatrics]

FAMILY OF FALLEN SOLDIER PLEADS: PLEASE STOP, CINDY!
Thu Aug 11 2005 12:56:21 ET

The family of American soldier Casey Sheehan, who was killed in Iraq on April 4, 2004, has broken its silence and spoken out against his mother Cindy Sheehan's anti-war vigil against George Bush held outside the president's Crawford, Texas ranch.

The following email was received by the DRUDGE REPORT from Casey's aunt and godmother:

Our family has been so distressed by the recent activities of Cindy we are breaking our silence and we have collectively written a statement for release. Feel free to distribute it as you wish.

Thanks, Cherie

In response to questions regarding the Cindy Sheehan/Crawford Texas issue: Sheehan Family Statement:

The Sheehan Family lost our beloved Casey in the Iraq War and we have been silently, respectfully grieving. We do not agree with the political motivations and publicity tactics of Cindy Sheehan. She now appears to be promoting her own personal agenda and notoriety at the the expense of her son's good name and reputation. The rest of the Sheehan Family supports the troops, our country, and our President, silently, with prayer and respect.

Sincerely,

Casey Sheehan's grandparents, aunts, uncles and numerous cousins.


Last summer Cindy Sheehan got a face-to-face meeting with President Bush, complete with kisses and condolences.

Today the Vacaville resident is camped outside the president's Texas ranch -- in the glare of the national media spotlight -- demanding another face-to-face meeting, and ultimately his impeachment.

Sheehan's son Casey, an Army specialist, was killed in Sadr City, Iraq, in April 2004. Eleven weeks later, the Sheehan family traveled to Seattle for a 10-minute conversation with the president, who met with 16 other families who had lost love ones in Iraq.

In the ensuing months, Cindy Sheehan has become a focal point in the ongoing partisan battle over the Iraq war, drawing the praise of many anti-war Democrats and the ire of Republicans who back Bush's decision.

Sheehan's role in that battle exploded Monday morning, when Matt Drudge - the infamous commentator behind the popular Drudge Report, a right-leaning online news site - accused Sheehan of changing her tune to serve political purposes.

Drudge's story, headlined "Protesting Soldier Mom Changed Story on Bush' and posted in the highest slot on the Web site that receives more than 5 million visits per day, pulled quotes from a Sheehan interview published June 24, 2004, in The Reporter.

That story, by staff writer David Henson, was an account of Sheehan's visit with the president in Seattle.

In Henson's story, Sheehan spoke of how she and husband, Patrick, debated before the meeting whether to ask pointed questions about the war and whether to vent frustration over their son's sacrifice. Ultimately, the Sheehans decided not to criticize Bush in the meeting.

Afterward, Cindy Sheehan told Henson of a new-found respect toward Bush.

"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,' she said in the story. "I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith.'

Sheehan also said the trip to Seattle helped connect her family

to others that had lost a son or daughter in Iraq. Sheehan said sharing their story with those families was rewarding, as was the time she got to spend with her own family.

"That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together,' she said in the story.

Drudge included that quote in his Monday morning report, but didn't explain that it referred to sharing time with her familiy, not the president.

Drudge also included most recent quotes from Sheehan highly critical of Bush and the 2004 meeting, including a statement the mother made Sunday to CNN.

"Every time we tried to talk about Casey and how much we missed him, he would change the subject,' Sheehan told correspondent Wolf Blitzer of the cable news network. "And he acted like it was a party.'

Drudge's report fueled opinions on both sides of the political spectrum Monday.

Posters on highly visited liberal Web log Daily Kos said Drudge's report was misleading, while right-wing bloggers, including the popular Michelle Malkin, echoed Drudge's sentiments that Sheehan was contradicting herself, perhaps for political reasons.

The Reporter decided to post Henson's 2004 story on www.thereporter.com today.

"It's important that readers see the full context of the story, instead of just selected portions,' said Editor Diane Barney. "We stand by the story as an accurate reflection of the Sheehan's take on the meeting at the time it was published.'

The Sheehan family could not be reached for comment.

I'm sorry her son was killed, but I don't really care about what she has to say about the President or the war. She's become nothing but a politicol tool, standing in front of the cameras to bash Bush and the White House and to get herself some face time on national TV. I care more about the thousands of mothers who don't stage stunts to get themselves on CNN, but support their children and the war they're fighting.

[ididnotnothat]

She has every right to do so and as mother who lost a son I don't blame her.

[The Ressurrected One]

She has every right to do so and as mother who lost a son I don't blame her.
What about the thousand's of other moms from all the previous wars, legitimate or not? Imagine the nonsense if every mother of a KIA did this.

I pity her.

[Bandit2981]

I pity her.
Because she lost her son, or because she dares speak out against your beloved leader? I can probably already guess your answer though.

[jochhejaam]

Clear Channel stations are hosting a Pro-Bush/anti-Cindy Sheehan rally in Crawford and are inviting troops from Ft. Hood to come speak out against Cindy.



Is this outrageous or what?

No more so than the political grandstanding the anti-Bush faction has stooped to by encouraging protests from the relatives of those killed serving our Country. The pinnacle of exploitation!

When Cindy speaks out it's great but when the troops that are putting their lives on the line for our Country wish to speak out it's Outrageous? That mentality is BIZARRE!! WARPED!!

[Nbadan]

No more so than the political grandstanding the anti-Bush faction has stooped to by encouraging protests from the relatives of those killed serving our Country. The pinnacle of exploitation!

No one is forcing these relatives to come forward, and just because they may have already met with W once while still deep in the grieving process doesn't mean that that person has automatically negated their right to want to meet with the President again at a later time.

The anti-war movement needs these relatives as much as the relatives need those in the anti-war movement. If Cindy Sheehan was standing out on a field in Crawford alone demanding to talk to W this would be a non-story, and the corporate media could go on blindly ignoring the growing public impatience with the progress of the terror wars. However, as Rosa Parks showed during the Civil Rights struggle, culture wars are first fought with symbolic losses, victories, and battles, but once they catch on, watch out!

As I posted at the beginning of this thread - I think W made a mistake by ignoring Ms. Sheehan’s request for so long. I think back about recent American presidents and how they would have handled similar situations and except for maybe Nixon, I can't think of another President in the last century at least that wouldn't have just invited a Ms. Sheehan in for a personal conversation and some tea. These are definitely strange times.

[The Ressurrected One]

Because she lost her son, or because she dares speak out against your beloved leader? I can probably already guess your answer though.
No, because she believes, somehow, she's more deserving of attention than the other thousands of KIA war moms.

[The Ressurrected One]

tro--i pity you. maybe you won't feel so self-righteous when the world is engulfed in good ol' made in the usa mushroom clouds
Yeah, this thread will be on my mind then...

[Clandestino]

Critics have started calling her a pawn of the left-wing. Some conservative organizations, talk show hosts and even some of her own extended family accuse her of shifting her position and say she is lowering troop morale.

She got a Web site, a public relations assistant (financed by an anti-war group), an entourage of peace activists and a speaking tour.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_re_us/peace_mom;_ylt=AqiqxWq6exd.HHwWcxNyPUms0NUE;_ylu=X 3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

[ChumpDumper]

So? Doesn't seem like she's doing anything she doesn't want to. It's not like Bush is going to have to speak with her, so relax. Plenty more folks are going to die, no worries there. We won't be out of there for years.

[Nbadan]

Day 7: Camp Casey

The Crawford area has turned into a circus of peaceniks and bush-supporters. A pro-bush march with about 50 people heading to Camp Casey has been stopped by the Crawford Police who are awaiting the arrival of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department.

Here (http://homepage.mac.com/godofkarma/swimmerfilms/iMovieTheater75.html) is some video of the Crawford Area

[3rdCoast]

AWESOME! Controversy sells.

I am sure all the little tools marching around protesting Bush will make a world of difference.

I am sure that the more they march the faster Bush is kicked out of office.

Right.

That is how it works.

Deal. With. It.

Bush is the man.

[Nbadan]

Yesterday, Camp Casey was on high-alert. They were aware that the counter protesters were expected to arrive yesterday afternoon, so everyone was being hyper vigilant. Of key importance to everyone involved with the organization of Camp Casey was the idea that our vigil sitters remain calm and peaceful.

As everyone was going about their business, waiting for the counter protesters to arrive, a man drove up in a huge diesel pickup truck. You know the kind, with the big doolie wheels and such. He parked right in the center of the triangle – right in the space no one from Camp is supposed to be. He parked in such a way that the front end of his truck was facing directly towards the tents where Cindy and the other military families sleep – and where all the crosses of fallen soldiers have been erected.

The man sat in his truck for quite some time while our people looked on and waited to see what he intended. After a while, one of the vets from Camp Casey walked up to the man’s truck and informed him that no one was allowed to park in the triangle. The gentleman identified himself as the father of a fallen soldier. Anne Wright walked up to this man’s truck and began speaking with him through his rolled down window. He told her that he did not support what Cindy and the others are doing at Camp Casey, but he wanted to come and see if his son’s name was on one of the crosses. Anne invited him to come walk the crosses with her. The man got out of his truck and went with Anne to move up and down the rows of crosses, looking together for his son’s name. When they found it, they sat down in front of it, wrapped their arms around each other and cried together.

The entire Camp was affected by this event. I suspect that there were few dry eyes in our little corner of Crawford yesterday afternoon. I know that even as Annie related this story to me, I was choking up and having a very difficult time typing as she spoke, her voice cracking as she related the tale. Much has been said on both sides of this issue about what is “right” and what is “good” and what is “honorable.” If you ask me, the interaction between Anne and “The Man In The Truck” is the perfect representation of what we are trying to accomplish – Peaceful coexistence among people of different beliefs, politics and ideologies. I don’t know who “the man in the truck” is, but should he ever read this, I want him to know how much his story touched me. I want him to know that I honor him, and I honor his child, and I honor the sacrifice his family has made in pursuit of their ideals. To you, Sir, I bow my head in respect."

Upbeat Defiance (http://www.upbeatdefiance.com/xoops/modules/news/article.php?storyid=59)

[Nbadan]

Saturday, August 13th, 2005
We Don't Have to be Angry Anymore; The Peaceful Occupation of Crawford (Day 7)

-- a message from Cindy Sheehan, Crawford, TX

http://www.michaelmoore.com/_images/splash/no_time_to_hate.jpg

My day started way too early today. After 3 hours of sleep, I was being shaken awake by someone at 6:30am telling me that the Today Show wanted me to be on their show. I had come into town to sleep in a trailer because my tent had been infested with fire ants. I turned the today show down for 7:15am, so we did it at 9:00am.

We had a very interesting day. We had Bush drive by really, really fast twice. I caught a glimpse of Laura. I was hoping after she saw me that she would come down to Camp Casey with some brownies and lemonade. I waited for her, but she never came.

The Bush's were going to a bar-be-que/fundraiser down the road from us. I was very surprised that they let us stay so close to Bush. The families of the fallen loved ones held their son's cross from Arlington West while Bush drove by. I bet it didn't even give him indigestion to see so many people protesting his murderous policies.

I am a continued thorn in the side to the right-wing bloggers and right wing-nut "journalists." One man, Phil Hendry called me an "ignorant cow." But you know what, the people who have come out from all over the country to give me a hug and take a picture with me and to support the cause of peace, overwhelms me so much, I don't have time to worry about the negativity and the hatred. The people who are slamming me have no idea about what it feels like to unjustly have a child killed in an insane war. Plus, they have no truth to fight truth with, so they fight truth with more lies and hate.

Three active duty soldiers from Ft. Hood came to visit me and tell me that they really appreciated what I was doing and that if they were killed in the war, their moms would be doing the same thing. That made me feel so good after all of the negativity I had been hearing from the righties. I also got to hold a couple of toddlers on my lap while their mom or dad took pictures of us. I am honored that people have resonated with the action that I took to make our mission of ending the war a reality.

We are here at the Crawford Peace House now and there are dozens and dozens of people here. We are giving each other hugs and kisses and we are all feeling great, full of energy and so filled with hope that this is something that is really going to change the world. I came here so angry and I have been so encouraged and overwhelmed by the support from all over. I was thinking that there is no reason for us progressive liberals to be angry anymore. We have the power. One mom has shown that we can be the change in our government. We deserve to hold George Bush accountable, no one else does. We have to make sure he answers to us. If he doesn't have to answer to Congress, or the media, we will FORCE him to answer to us. The absolute hubris of him that won't!!!

Michael Moore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php)

[Dos]

yes hugs and kisses will win the war......

[word]

She should just shake her fist at the sky....

[jochhejaam]

Cindy Sheehan : "We had Bush drive by really, really fast twice. I caught a glimpse of Laura. I was hoping after she saw me that she would come down to Camp Casey with some brownies and lemonade. I waited for her, but she never came".

Reality : President Bush's car went by twice (left and came back) at a normal pace. My mindset paralells the lunatic left so even though I bash the President and his policies I thought the first lady would want to be my hostess...she didn't.






Cindy Sheehan : "the Bush's were going to a bar-be-que/fundraiser down the road from us. I was very surprised that they let us stay so close to Bush. The families of the fallen loved ones held their son's cross from Arlington West while Bush drove by. I bet it didn't even give him indigestion to see so many people protesting his murderous policies"

Reality : Because I'm being totally propped up by the lunatic left I'm going to make an asinine, maniacal, untrue and unproveable statement that the President could care less about the soldiers that have given their lives for their country.





Cindy Sheehan : "I am a continued thorn in the side to the right-wing bloggers and right wing-nut "journalists." One man, Phil Hendry called me an "ignorant cow." But you know what, the people who have come out from all over the country to give me a hug and take a picture with me and to support the cause of peace, overwhelms me so much, I don't have time to worry about the negativity and the hatred. The people who are slamming me have no idea about what it feels like to unjustly have a child killed in an insane war. Plus, they have no truth to fight truth with, so they fight truth with more lies and hate.

Reality : "I'm being a tushhole and I hate those that have morals. It's amazing, considering the way I'm making such a fool of myself, that there would still be people that come out to see me, guess I'm not the only lunatic, eh? I want people to listen and understand me but I'm not going to listen to anything they have to say because I'm ignorant. I'm the only one to ever have lost a loved one and I, and only I, have cornered the market on what it truly feels like to lose a child. There are so many people telling me what to think and what to say, I'm just so confused...really, I am..."

[mookie2001]

You've never seen Republicans pandering to the minority vote? Give me a fucking break. You're turning into Minivore here.

scoffed.

[Nbadan]

A Ft Hood soldiers letter to Cindy Sheehan...


Fort Hood, Texas
12 August 2005

Dear Mrs. Sheehan:

I am a Soldier stationed at Fort Hood who is scheduled for deployment to Iraq (soon). Like you, I do not support the war because I believe it represents a horrible waste of lives and lucre that is bankrupting our nation. However, I am sworn to obey my orders and I will serve to the utmost of my ability when called upon.

Your actions in Crawford have served to galvanize the American people and to remind them of the sacrifices being made by its Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines during what seem to be prosperous and lazy times here at home. It is too easy for the average American to forget that the seemingly low casualty figures seeping in from Southwest Asia are represented by human faces - like the face of your son. While the nation dozes, ones and twos turn into hundreds and thousands of young lives forever squelched - 1,846 thus far, to say nothing of those whose lives have also been forever changed by being wounded and maimed in the conflict.

Whatever the rationale for the war in Iraq was and is, I cannot tolerate the sight of the huge quantum of vehicles I see on the highways with yellow "Support our Troops" magnets on them. Citizens who support us in the military don't need to buy a magnet. They can contribute to causes benefiting soldiers and their families. They can inform themselves about the conflict in the Middle East and ask themselves what role, if any, the United States needs to play there. Most importantly, they can drive less, and drive smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles. That would reduce our dependency on foreign oil by which, ultimately, the desert wastes of Arabia and Mesopotamia are transformed into "vital United States interests."

Lately you have attracted the attention of the right-wing smear machine, wielded by those who use the people's innate sense of patriotism and loyalty to serve its own selfish interests. This is a sign that you are awakening the sensibilities of decent Americans everywhere to the bloody-minded folly of the war in Iraq. Now more than ever, you must find your strength, a strength which you must have given young Casey in spades, and I am equally sure that today his strength of his spirit is animating and reawakening yours.

As a soldier, I am asking you to stand fast, and to stick to what you know is right and true. For me, those are the principal duties every civilian citizen owes to his or her nation. For my part, I am not allowed to participate directly in the political process. But I wrote this letter to you today to let you know that on Fort Hood, and on military installations across the United States and around the world, there are simple servicemen and servicewomen like myself who are praying for you, and who wish you well.

The duties of a soldier are a little bit different than those of civilians. Mostly they center around living the Army Values. Those values are:

LOYALTY
DUTY
RESPECT
SELFLESS SERVICE
HONOR
INTEGRITY
PERSONAL COURAGE

I have no doubts that your son Casey lived those values to the fullest measure. I will remember him as I begin my own trial by fire in Iraq. Please accept my deepest condolences for your loss and my prayers for you and all of your entire family circle. Also, please accept my thanks for awakening the conscience of our nation.

In deepest sympathy,

OREGON GUY
(RANK), USA

Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/13/151152/915)

Bet ya won't catch Hookdem passing this letter.

:hat

[Nbadan]

W just can't manage to say the right things about this whole affair...


CRAWFORD, Texas - President Bush, noting that lots of people want to talk to the president and “it’s also important for me to go on with my life,” on Saturday defended his decision not to meet with the grieving mom of a soldier killed in Iraq.

Bush said he is aware of the anti-war sentiments of Cindy Sheehan and others who have joined her protest near the Bush ranch.

“But whether it be here or in Washington or anywhere else, there’s somebody who has got something to say to the president, that’s part of the job,” Bush said on the ranch. “And I think it’s important for me to be thoughtful and sensitive to those who have got something to say.”

“But,” he added, “I think it’s also important for me to go on with my life, to keep a balanced life.”

Daily Dayton News (http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0814bushfitweb.html)

What's funny is that an article in USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-08-13-bush-bike_x.htm) makes no mention of this quote by W, but does have an cute antidotal story about his bike ride with reporters

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/13/images/large/Bush_Bike_3.jpg

c.

[Clandestino]

war is what has got the u.s. where we are today. w/o we'd all be speaking german...

[MannyIsGod]

war is what has got the u.s. where we are today. w/o we'd all be speaking german...
Or Sioux, or Hopi, or maybe Comanche. Shit, maybe even Spanish.

[Hook Dem]

A Ft Hood soldiers letter to Cindy Sheehan...



Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/13/151152/915)

Bet ya won't catch Hookdem passing this letter.

:hat
You couldn't leave well enough alone could you? :flipoff http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/693/monkeythink1wk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Hook Dem]

The loss of this lady's son is tragic. When he signed up did he think there would never be any risk? I think not! Did he have a problem taking the pay? I think not! The mere fact that this lady is politicalizing her sons death is tragic for this country and a disgrace.

[smeagol]

Yeah, peace is so boring. Why would anyone want peace?

[word]

What year was it her son was drafted ?

[AFE7FATMAN]

When asked to meet with her AGAIN George responded













http://www.davidcogswell.com/Graphics/bush_finger.gif

[Nbadan]

Day 8: Camp Casey

-- a message from Cindy Sheehan, Crawford, TX


It is not often that Cindy Sheehan is at a loss for words. I will try and describe today, though. It was the most incredible, fantastic, fabulous, amazing, powerful, miraculous event I have ever been a part of. I was so humbled and honored at the outpouring of love and support that arrived in Camp Casey today.

It was a busy morning of interviews and problem solving. I had interviews with some network shows and a photo shoot for the Vanity Fair article. Almost all of the reporters ask me if I have accomplished anything at Camp Casey and I think we really have. We have brought the war onto the front pages of the newspapers and the top stories of the mainstream media. It is really incredible that we are doing so well in the media because I keep telling all of the reporters that I am doing their jobs. I am asking the tough questions of the President that they don’t ask.

We are also gathering people together in this country who believe that this war is a mistake and our troops should come home. I know people have been frustrated, either sitting on the fence or apathetically sitting on the sidelines. I know before Casey was killed, I didn’t think that one person could make a difference in the world. Now I know that isn’t true. Not only can one person make a difference, but one person, with millions behind her can make history. I really believe that this movement that began in Crawford, Texas (does the irony escape anyone) is going to grow and grow and transform the world. Like I said last night in my blog: hope is blossoming in Crawford, because WE have the power.

The CBS reporter whom I met last Saturday when I began this Holy War against the War of Terrorism that George Bush is waging on the world told me that he has interviewed me 4 times this week already. He told me that he has never, ever interviewed anyone 4 times, let alone four times in one week. I was joking with the reporters that were here last week that they should have brought me flowers on our one week anniversary.

The most fantabulistic (I needed a new word, none of the old ones fit) thing happened in Crawford today. There was a very insignificant counter-protest across the way. At first the Sheriffs let them stand in the street, until we politely pointed out to the Sheriffs that we had to stay in the ditch last week. So they made them move into the ditch. Since we are supposedly in Bush country, the counter protest was so small and weak. They had signs that said “Stay the Course.” I appreciated that. I really believe they were telling me to stay the course. I will.

We also met a man whose son was KIA in Iraq in November of 2004. He still loves George Bush and thinks we are doing great things in Iraq. By the end of the day we were drinking beer together and telling each other “I love you.” I am telling you miracles are happening here in Crawford.

Anyway, back to the fantabulistic thing that happened today. We had a rally downtown in Crawford. Then the people caravanned up to Camp Casey. I was told to come down to the point of the triangle to greet them. While I was walking down to the point, I had a great view of Prairie Chapel Road. There was car, after car, after car!!! I started sobbing and I felt like collapsing. The cars kept on coming. It took almost a full hour for them to all get to Camp Casey, it was a miraculous sight to see. It was identical to Field of Dreams.

People came from all over the country to be here. We are building a movement and they are coming.

We don’t have a full count of all the people who were there, but I would say hundreds. It was amazing and awesome. I felt the spirits of all of our needlessly killed loved ones in the presence of Camp Casey. I felt their strength and the wisdom of the ages with me in that wonderful place.

Today was George Bush’s accountability moment, and he lost. Two young ladies from San Diego drove all night to get to the rally and they had to leave tonight to get back home. One of them said: “Wow, we can drive all the way from San Diego just to meet you and he can’t even come down to the end of his driveway to meet with you.”

George Bush: you work for me. I pay your salary. Come out and talk to me. Anyway, I have a feeling you are about to be fired!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/Bush_Eats_Beef/Crawford-Crowd.jpg

[whottt]

It's nice that they can all tune in, turn on, and drop out, having a good old party...while our boys are fighting for their lives over in Iraq. Those fucking hippies disgust me...Stoned people should not be getting involved in politics.


I'm glad the two little valley girls enjoyed their trip...but some of us have to work for a living.

[Nbadan]

Cindy's Victory
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Monday 15 August 2005


This thing, the wheels are coming off it.

- Gen. Barry McCaffrey, after returning from an inspection of Iraq, 08/12/2005.


They are sunburned and storm-lashed. They sleep in tents that sit along the muddy earth of drainage ditches by the side of the road. They have been heckled by "counter-demonstrators" who chanted "We don't care!" during a rendition of "God Bless America." They have been attacked by fire ants and hassled by local health inspectors. On Thursday morning, at about 5:30am, they were blasted awake by a fourteen-car convoy of Secret Service SUVs which roared through the camp at high speed while leaning on their horns the whole time.

They have been jolted with fear when a local resident fired his weapon into the air several times to make them go away. When the shooter, one Larry Mattlage, was asked why he was firing his gun, he said, "We're going to start doing our war and it's going to be underneath the law. We're going to do whatever it takes." It is safe to say, therefore, that their lives have been threatened.

The thing is, they've already won.

Cindy Sheehan and her ever-growing band of supporters intend to stay in those ditches outside Bush's Crawford "ranch" until he comes out to talk or until August 31st, whichever comes first. If he does not come out by the end of the month, she intends to follow him to Washington and camp out in front of the White House. She and the others have been there for more than a week now, garnering more and more attention from the national and international press. Yes, they are tired. Yes, they are uncomfortable. Yes, they have already won.

The nearly 2,000 crosses, crescents and Stars of David that make up the Arlington West cemetery, erected by the demonstrators a few days ago to represent all the fallen American soldiers in Iraq, stretch almost a mile down the country road. Bush had to drive past that on Friday when he went to his fundraising shindig at the Broken Spoke Ranch. 54 crosses have been added to the cemetery since he first showed up for his vacation at the beginning of August. It takes a while to drive past them all. This man, who cannot abide hearing or seeing anything in the way of dissent or disagreement, saw those crosses whistle past his window. That is a victory.

For three years now, both before the invasion of Iraq began and then after it was unleashed, millions of people have marched and screamed and stomped in order to try to put a stop to this disaster. The Bush administration was not pushed off its tracks even an inch in all this time. Discussions and debates on why we are there and whether or not we should leave have been bunted aside.

Half a dozen reasons for the invasion and occupation have been put forth - weapons of mass destruction, ties to al Qaeda terrorism, the building of a democracy, Hussein was a bad man - but in the end, the debate is halted by the kind of brainless thinking that left us in Vietnam for far too long: "We are there, so we have to stay." This was the accepted wisdom.

Not anymore.

All the protests, all the articles, all the books, all the whistleblowers, all the criticism combined have not packed the kind of punch that one mother in a ditch has delivered to this administration's carefully crafted fantasy vision of what is happening in Iraq. Suddenly, Bush has been forced to go before cameras and try to explain why staying in Iraq is the only option available. Suddenly, the accepted wisdom isn't so accepted anymore. A majority of Americans, according to every available poll, agree with the lady in the ditch and not with the president.

Bush isn't doing a very good job of explaining his side of things, and his people seem unable to keep their stories straight. After the fourteen Marines from Ohio were killed in Iraq, Bush got up and stated that it would be unreasonable for him to lay down a timetable for withdrawal. Yet at the same time, his generals were bent over maps and logistics notebooks, trying to do exactly that.

The Los Angeles Times on Saturday took a look at the mixed messages coming from the war party. "Are the president and the Pentagon on the same page over the war in Iraq?" asked the Times. "That question is percolating in Washington after President Bush twice in the last 10 days tried to clarify a message sent by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and military leaders. After Rumsfeld and other Pentagon officials indicated their desire to shift away from discussing the struggle against terrorism as a 'war' - saying it placed too much emphasis on military solutions to terrorism - Bush repeatedly used the word 'war' in an Aug. 3 speech to conservative state legislators."

"Then," continued the Times article, "on Thursday, Bush dismissed as 'rumors' and 'speculation' reports that U.S. commanders were contemplating significant withdrawals of American troops from Iraq next year. His comments came after Army Gen. George W. Casey, the top U.S. military official in Iraq, and Army Lt. Gen. John R. Vines, the top ground commander, had publicly raised exactly that possibility."

Hmm.

On Sunday, out of nowhere, the Washington Post published a page-one story titled "US Lowers Sights on What Can Be Achieved in Iraq." The story stated, "The Bush administration is significantly lowering expectations of what can be achieved in Iraq, recognizing that the United States will have to settle for far less progress than originally envisioned during the transition due to end in four months. The United States no longer expects to see a model new democracy, a self-supporting oil industry or a society in which the majority of people are free from serious security or economic challenges."

The article goes on to describe how any "democracy" will have to bend itself around the laws of Islam, a fact that chucks the secular-government talking points into the round file. Iraqi women, should not get their hopes up about being granted significant rights of any kind. The kicker came in the third paragraph, which quotes an unnamed US official saying, "What we expected to achieve was never realistic given the timetable or what unfolded on the ground. We are in a process of absorbing the factors of the situation we're in and shedding the unreality that dominated at the beginning."

In other words, the whole thing was a Charlie Foxtrot from soup to nuts. There are no weapons of mass destruction, the terrorists connected to 9/11 were not there (though there are plenty there now learning how best to kill Americans with bombs), and democracy is not to be found anywhere on the menu. The hearts and flowers we were promised have not come, and are not coming. Sure, Hussein is still a bad man, but that rationale for this war is an outright laugher when compared to the cost of getting rid of him. Though Bush clings desperately to his canned lines to defend his actions, the facts speak for themselves. This whole bloody enterprise has been a colossal, expensive, murderous failure.

The funny part is that Bush almost certainly could have maintained the public fantasy with one simple act. He could have jumped into his pickup truck last Saturday, when Cindy Sheehan was alone except for her sister in that ditch, and driven down to see her. He could have invited her into the shotgun seat and driven her around the neighborhood for a few minutes. He could have then gone back up to the "ranch" and told the press corps that he met with her, and that they had looked into each other's hearts. That would have been the end of it.

He did not do that. Now, his generals are at loggerheads with the public line coming from the White House about getting out of Iraq. Unnamed officials are going on the record to state that the whole plan was hare-brained from the word "go," and that the entire deal sits now in the ashes of its own utterly ruined failure. Bush has to keep explaining why we have to stay, why rearranging the deck chairs on this Titanic is a noble and worthwhile process. Meanwhile, the whole world mocks him for hiding from one woman and her broken heart.

Cindy Sheehan has done this with one act of conscience. She has managed to do what no other protest or action or statement has been able to do. She has knocked the wheels right off this absurd applecart. She has called the man to account. She can hang her own "Mission Accomplished" banner above her tent in that ditch. She has already won.

Her son would be very, very proud.

William River Pitts, Truthout (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/081505Z.shtml)

[HB22inSA]

This just in...US military service is voluntary.

IF you are not willing to die for your country...then don't join the military.

IF you do not want your son or daughter to die in service to their country...then don't let them join the military.

If you join the military...there is always a very strong chance that you will be called into service and sent into a war.

It's not just something you sign up for to do a lot of exersize and wear silly looking clothes.

Why do you post propaganda Dan?


Thank You.

[Nbadan]

This just in...US military service is voluntary.

IF you are not willing to die for your country...then don't join the military.

IF you do not want your son or daughter to die in service to their country...then don't let them join the military.

If you join the military...there is always a very strong chance that you will be called into service and sent into a war.

It's not just something you sign up for to do a lot of exersize and wear silly looking clothes.

Why do you post propaganda Dan?

Yes, the military is voluntary, but service members don't get to choose what battle they want to participate in when they chose to defend their country. They rely on the promise of politicians that they will not be asked to make the greatest sacrifice unless the freedom, liberty and sovereignty of the U.S, is threatened. Yesterday the Bush administration admitted that true democracy is probably unattainable in Iraq, dropping the latest facade by our government linking our justification for remaining in Iraq. So if Democracy isn't a sure thing, and we are going to leave Iraq in another year regardless of the insurgency situation, why are we still there?

If you think I am the one posting propaganda then let’s compare over the last year how many times I have posted about the deteriorating situation in Iraq, about the lack of WMD and association with anything named Al-Queda by Saddam. Let's compare how many times I have been wrong about anything, and successfully challenged by anyone who has backed up their argument with verifiable facts.

It's very easy to call information propaganda, any monkey on a keyboard can do that, but proving something is propaganda requires diligence and intelligence – two skills I can tell neither of you possess.

[whottt]

Cindy's Victory
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Monday 15 August 2005



- Gen. Barry McCaffrey, after returning from an inspection of Iraq, 08/12/2005.



William River Pitts, Truthout (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/081505Z.shtml)


You can't appease terrorists and Cindy Sheehan's conduct is very terroristlike...she thinks she speaks for the entire US and, is trying to dictate policy...

She doesn't speak for me.

And her poor mother act would play better if she wasn't allied with a bunch of Left Wingers...she's representative of a hostile political movement that's trying to impose it's minority view on the American people, and I don't blame Bush for not speaking with her...especially since he has already done so.

Her son dying does not put the elected leader of this country at her beckon call...


And who the fuck does she think she is fooling with her, "I just want to know the truth" BS?

She wants to hear what she wants to hear...not the truth.

[Nbadan]

You can't appease terrorists and Cindy Sheehan's conduct is very terroristlike...she thinks she speaks for the entire US and, is trying to dictate policy...

She doesn't speak for me.

And her poor mother act would play better if she wasn't allied with a bunch of Left Wingers...she's representative of a hostile political movement that's trying to impose it's minority view on the American people, and I don't blame Bush for not speaking with her...especially since he has already done so.

Her son dying does not put the elected leader of this country at her beckon call...

The greatest sacrafice any mother can make for her country is her children. Cindy Sheehan has made that sacrafice. You should be thankful that there are mothers like Sheehan who will fight to keep the memories of our troops who have died and will continue to die in Iraq fresh in the mind of Americans who think that putting a yellow support our troops on their SUV is a war sacrafice.

No, Whott, Cindy Sheehan is not the person who should be hanging her head in shame over her recent conduct- you should be.

[whottt]

Cindy Sheehan didn't make that sacrifice, her son did. She doesn't get credit for dying in service to this country...and her comments clearly show why she doesn't...

Her son gets the credit...he's the hero. Not her.

[Nbadan]

Cindy Sheehan didn't make that sacrifice, her son did. She doesn't get credit for dying in service to this country...and her comments clearly show why she doesn't...

Her son gets the credit...he's the hero. Not her.


What are her comments Whott? Cindy simply wants to know the real reason why her son had to die in Iraq. If it wasn't the WMD's, or terrorists links, or founding democracy in the Middle East, then what was it? That question is a hidden mindfield for the President because no matter which way he goes he could step in some deep do-do, especially now that this story has gained national attention.

Remember, I was in the camp that said that W should have nipped this circus in the bud, but that ship has sailed.

Adios Mofo!


:hat

[HB22inSA]

They rely on the promise of politicians that they will not be asked to make the greatest sacrifice unless the freedom, liberty and sovereignty of the U.S, is threatened.
Excuse me while I pick myself off the floor.

That's some pretty funny shit...if you believe it!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't "Promise of politicians" and oxymoron?

[Clandestino]

How do you feel about Cindy Sheehan's protest in Crawford?
I admire her

8.4%
I disagree with her

9.2%
She speaks for many who oppose the war

30.7%
She is disrespecting her son and other soldiers

46.4%
I don't know

5.4%

[Spurminator]

That poll could have included an "All of the Above" option.

[Clandestino]

btw, it was mysa.com

[Dos]

this lady is hilarious now, I hear now she wants the israeli's out of palestine and isn't not going to pay her taxes.... hmmmmm well I guess know she wants to be US ambassador to the UN and break federal law... I hope the IRS is heard her... she'd be keeping some waiting on a welfare check, from getting there's.. yeah all you lefties don't disagree with this war... stop paying your taxes... defeat your ownself in the realm of social handouts.... it's too funny...

[Dos]

sheesh I need to stop thinking so fast... bah

this lady is hilarious now, I hear now she wants the israeli's out of palestine and isn't not going to pay her taxes.... hmmmmm well I guess now she wants to be US ambassador to the UN and break federal law... I hope the IRS has heard her... she'd be keeping someone waiting on a welfare check, from getting there's.. yeah all you lefties disagree with this war... stop paying your taxes... defeat your ownself in the realm of social handouts.... it's too funny...

[Trainwreck2100]

What exactly is she going to do when Bush is done with vacation and leaves Crawford, call it a moral victory?

[whottt]

What are her comments Whott?


Um...the ones where she calls Bush a murderer and says she wants him impeached...Yeah right...she just wants to talk to the President to get the truth...and once he says he's telling her the truth she'll go home peacefully....

Who do you guys think you are kidding?





Cindy simply wants to know the real reason why her son had to die in Iraq.

Because he joined the military and in doing so forfeited his right to not fight in a war.




If it wasn't the WMD's, or terrorists links, or founding democracy in the Middle East, then what was it? That question is a hidden mindfield for the President because no matter which way he goes he could step in some deep do-do, especially now that this story has gained national attention.

It was for all of those reasons.



Remember, I was in the camp that said that W should have nipped this circus in the bud, but that ship has sailed.

Adios Mofo!


:hat


Yeap...keep having Michael Moore take center stage for your party...

You guys will be looking up at the communist party in election returns by the time it's all over....

Doesn't it kind of bother you that the leader of your party is a loser and is always wrong?


He needs to take his death exploitation money, go buy and Island, and then hate himself to death...instead of trying to drag us with him. What a fat disgusting fuck.

[Nbadan]

What exactly is she going to do when Bush is done with vacation and leaves Crawford, call it a moral victory?

Nope, she intends to follow him to Washington.

[Nbadan]

Yeap...keep having Michael Moore taking center stage for your party...

You guys will be looking up at the communist party in election returnts by the time it's all over....

Doesn't it kind of bother you that the leader of your party is a loser and is always wrong?

Ummm...I think it's the Republicans that should be worried. Paul Hackett helped prove in Ohio that a strong-on-war Democratic candidate can win even in a Republican strong-hold given the right time and finances. It made even Newt Gingrich and other Republicans admit that Conservatives need to wake up and take notice before the 06 mid-term elections. Republicans have also taken a beating lately in Texas over the lack of school finance reform.

[whottt]

Don't let Hackett go to your head.....even I was considering the guy a good candidate...he had unimpeachable credentials in a fiercely patriotic sector of the country, and still lost to an absolute hag of a candidate. Their major difference? She had a clearly defined patriotic stance and he didn't. He lost.

[Trainwreck2100]

Nope, she intends to follow him to Washington.


All this spending won't end well for her come tax time.

[whottt]

NBAdan...it's funny that your conspiracy ridden brain has determined that Ralph Nader is an enemy of the Democratic Party...yet you fail to see that Moore hurts the party in exactly the same way...only moreso...because he actually pushes liberals to the right, instead of pulling them to the left into a liberal party, like Nader.

I will never be on the same side of an issue as Michael Moore and I know a lot of people that feel the same way....

[Dos]

Sheehan's Husband Seeks Divorce
Bush roadside protester named in California petition filed Friday

AUGUST 15--The next well-wisher approaching Cindy Sheehan at her tent encampment outside President George W. Bush's Texas vacation home may actually be a process server. That's because the California woman's husband--in a curious bit of timing--filed for divorce Friday afternoon (below you'll find a copy of Patrick Sheehan's complaint, lodged August 12 in Solano County District Court). With Sheehan, 48, entering a second week outside Bush's Crawford retreat, her husband's divorce petition cites "irreconcilable differences" for the demise of the couple's 28-year marriage (the Sheehans, the document states, have been separated since June 1). Along with a Vacaville home, Patrick Sheehan listed other "community assets" as "any and all benefits payable as a result of son's death," including a Prudential insurance policy and "benefits from the U.S. Government." From her roadside outpost, Sheehan, whose 24-year-old son Casey, an Army Specialist, was killed last year in Iraq, has become the face of the U.S. antiwar movement, telling reporters that she will not budge until Bush meets with her and explains "why our sons are dead." Noting that Bush has referred to the war as a "noble" pursuit, Sheehan told Reuters, "If it's such a noble cause, why aren't his daughters over there?" Patrick Sheehan's lawyer, Glen DeRonde, did not return a TSG call, so it is unclear whether the divorce complaint will be delivered to her in Texas or when she returns to her home east of San Francisco. (4 pages)

TUNE IN: Smoking Gun TV premieres tomorrow night (8/16) at 11 PM

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0815051sheehan1.html

[Trainwreck2100]

NBAdan...it's funny that your conspiracy ridden brain has determined that Ralph Nader is an enemy of the Democratic Party...yet you fail to see that Moore hurts the party in exactly the same way...only moreso...because he actually pushes liberals to the right, instead of pulling them to the left into a liberal party, like Nader.

I will never be on the same side of an issue as Michael Moore and I know a lot of people that feel the same way....


I hear he is coming out with a badass documentary on pharmaceutical companies, I really want to see that one because those guys are jerks.

[Nbadan]

Don't let Hackett go to your head.....even I was considering the guy a good candidate...he had unimpeachable credentials in a fiercely patriotic sector of the country, and still lost to an absolute hag of a candidate. Their major difference? She had a clearly defined patriotic stance and he didn't. He lost.

He lost by 4 points in a heavy Republican district and he only campaigned for a few weeks with very little cash, certainly much less than 'the hag' spent.

[Dos]

I guess if the bush twins wanted to volunteer to join the army they'd be there.

funny you never heard the left saying the same thing about Chelsea Clinton when we were bombing kosovo..

[Nbadan]

NBAdan...it's funny that your conspiracy ridden brain has determined that Ralph Nader is an enemy of the Democratic Party...yet you fail to see that Moore hurts the party in exactly the same way...only moreso...because he actually pushes liberals to the right, instead of pulling them to the left into a liberal party, like Nader.

I will never be on the same side of an issue as Michael Moore and I know a lot of people that feel the same way....

MM hurts the Democratic Party only as so far as the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson hurt the Republican Party. They are fun to mock, but in reality their are far from being power-players in either party.

[whottt]

He lost by 4 points in a heavy Republican district and he only campaigned for a few weeks with very little cash, certainly much less than 'the hag' spent.


He got a ton of free publicity in the lead up to the election...his short amount of time campaigning did not hurt him.

All he had to do was....say he supported the troops and that he supported the war effort, rightly or wrongly, because it's too late to turn back now...and he'd have gotten elected. Instead he short circuited his own campaign...the guy had great credentials...he's the reason he lost...and he lost for the same reasons that Michael Moore is despised.

[whottt]

MM hurts the Democratic Party only as so far as the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson hurt the Republican Party. They are fun to mock, but in reality their are far from being power-players in either party.


You don't see Falwell and Robertson riding shotgun next to ex-presidents at the RNC....

And no...Moore is worse than those guys anyway...and that's saying something...because I hate those guys too...

[Trainwreck2100]

I guess if the bush twins wanted to volunteer to join the army they'd be there.
.

They would never need to, because rich people don't join the armed services.

[Nbadan]

He got a ton of free publicity in the lead up to the election...his short amount of time campaigning did not hurt him.

All he had to do was....say he supported the troops and that he supported the war effort, rightly or wrongly, because it's too late to turn back now...and he'd have gotten elected. Instead he short circuited his own campaign...the guy had great credentials...he's the reason he lost...and he lost for the same reasons that Michael Moore is despised.

Well, you can go ahead and live in your world of political sterotypes, but us here in reality know that people didn't vote against Paul Hackett because of MM.

[Nbadan]

I guess if the bush twins wanted to volunteer to join the army they'd be there.

funny you never heard the left saying the same thing about Chelsea Clinton when we were bombing kosovo..

Maybe if the Kosovo thing wasn't a UN action, your comparison would have more legs, well, that and we weren't nation-building in Serbia

[whottt]

They voted for him because of his service to this country...he lost because of his anti-war stance and attempts to politicize the war.


And the religious rightwingers aren't seen as anti-American....the anti-war leftwingers are. Because of their attempted demonization of the President and by default America, during a war(which they also politicized in an attempt to regain the whitehouse).



It took effort to lose this past election...congrats...you did it.

[Nbadan]

You don't see Falwell and Robertson riding shotgun next to ex-presidents at the RNC....

And no...Moore is worse than those guys anyway...and that's saying something...because I hate those guys too...

No, Republicans learned that its better to keep people like Falwell off the political radar during the Clinton era. Perhaps this is the lesson Democrats should learn about MM.

[Nbadan]

They voted for him because of his service to this country...he lost because of his anti-war stance and attempts to politicize the war.


And the religious rightwingers aren't seen as anti-American....the anti-war leftwingers are. Because of their attempted demonization of the President and by default America, during a war(which they also politicized in an attempt to regain the whitehouse).



It took effort to lose this past election...congrats...you did it.

Umm..they voted for him because 62% of the public no-longer supports the Iraq war. Republicans crossed party lines in droves to vote for a Democrat. That burns you up, doesn't it?

[whottt]

No, Republicans learned that its better to keep people like Falwell off the political radar during the Clinton era. Perhaps this is the lesson Democrats should learn about MM.


Exactly, but also tone down the anti-war/Bush rhetoric....it aint going to work this time...Celebrity protests aren't going to work this time...people have been there and done that...and they are sick of it.

Our sevice is voluntary now...we were attacked by an extreme religious movement infecting nearly all of the middle east...

It aint going to work this time...this is not 1960 anymore...Free love can you get aids now and drugs fuck up yo head.

[Trainwreck2100]

It took effort to lose this past election...congrats...you did it.

It wasn't just the democrats, the Republicans did an outstanding job of making Kerry look bad 11% of Demos voted Bush for moral reasons in one state. I always thougtht Bush would lose the election, but the Repubs did an outstanding slander campaign.

[whottt]

Umm..they voted for him because 62% of the public no-longer supports the Iraq war. Republicans crossed party lines in droves to vote for a Democrat. That burns you up, doesn't it?



http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22459&highlight=Paul+Hackett




Just call me the living zogby poll.....

And those anti-war polls are loaded...they work under the assumption that Americans love war...

[whottt]

It wasn't just the democrats, the Republicans did an outstanding job of making Kerry look bad 11% of Demos voted Bush for moral reasons in one state. I always thougtht Bush would lose the election, but the Repubs did an outstanding slander campaign.


Ask the swing moderates on this board if it was what the Republicans did or what the Democrats did that made them switch to Bush...

Don't get me wrong...Kerry was just about the absolute worst presidential candidate in American history...I see the Crats viewing the closeness of the election as a success...in actuality, it was a sign of their failure...it was their election to lose.

They are supposed to be the moderate party...by nature...instead the Republicans are now the moderates...and they aren't moderates at all...except when compared to the high profile Democrats.

[Nbadan]

Exactly, but also tone down the anti-war/Bush rhetoric....it aint going to work this time...Celebrity protests aren't going to work this time...people have been there and done that...and they are sick of it.

Our sevice is voluntary now...we were attacked by an extreme religious movement infecting nearly all of the middle east...

It aint going to work this time...this is not 1960 anymore...Free love can you get aids now and drugs fuck up yo head.

Pop culture rules our society, look at popularity of the Spurs on this board, but young people need to be motivated to get out and vote. Maybe once more of them are indoctrinated into the Armed Forces they will be more motivated to vote.

The whole, Al-Queda has cells and its tenticles in countries around the world argument, was built on assumptions built on assumptions.

[Spurminator]

It's stories like this that make me wish South Park had new episodes year-round.

[Dos]

I guess dropping bombs on kosovo isn't a war, then I guess I don't know what is...

probably because clinton never got approval from congress to delcare a true war..

and it was a NATO action not a UN action...

Yeah removing a murderous dictator in Kosovo isn't not the same as removing a murderous dictator in Iraq.

[Nbadan]

I guess dropping bombs on kosovo isn't a war, then I guess I don't know what is...

probably because clinton never got approval from congress to delcare a true war..

and it was a NATO action not a UN action...

Yeah removing a murderous dictator in Kosovo isn't not the same as removing a murderous dictator in Iraq.

Well, to begin with we had very few ground troops in Serbia and we weren't trying to start from the ground up like we are in Iraq. For all the criticisim Wesley Clark drew over a over-blown snaffu with the Russians, he won the peace effectively from the air.

[Trainwreck2100]

Not to mention we were UN backed

[Dos]

air wars are fun... less causalties... whoops..

yeah russia and china were all for us going to war in kosovo... sheeesh...

[gtownspur]

Well, to begin with we had very few ground troops in Serbia and we weren't trying to start from the ground up like we are in Iraq. For all the criticisim Wesley Clark drew over a over-blown snaffu with the Russians, he won the peace effectively from the air.
NbaDan, you seriously believe the Serbs are now better off. Not to mention Milosevic went unpunished for war crimes. Kosovo was a disaster and it didnt achieve peace