How Much Blame does George Hill receive for Pacers' situation?

[Embedded]

He got into a public feud with Lance Stephenson when during our game there. I saw George Hill give up a layup to ATL out of frustration. At Miami yesterday Hill had 0 points. 4 Assists, 2 TO. Vs. ATL he had 0 Assists, 2 TO. This is the starting point guard. Now, I am a George Hill fan, and would welcome him back to the Spurs, except I don't see a fit here. But can he not fill a leadership role at the Pacers?

[HarlemHeat37]

It's not about his leadership, at all, tbh..

He's a PG that can't dribble a basketball..when you watch a Pacers game, you see that they're always late getting into their sets and that they struggle mightily against full court pressure..their only guard that can penetrate off the dribble is Lance Stephenson, a cancer and one of the most overrated players in the league..

Larry Bird deserves a large portion of the blame for failing to address the issue..

[Chinook]

Hill being better would make the Pacers better. Yes. But Hill is who he is at this point. It's Bird's fault for assuming that Hill would become more than that. They badly need to get a true PG or at least a less erratic playmaking SG.

[Gagnrath]

Looking at the pacers they seem to have three serious issues. First is that they get very stagnant on offense and don't move the ball. This is because they don't have many real scoring threats or natural distributors. Paul George isn't quite ready yet, and he isn't the passer at small forward that Granger at his peak was, which means teams can concentrate on him more. Hibbert is streaky and prone to disappearing on offense and on the glass. Stevenson is J.R. Smith but more willing to play defense and with a bit less talent on offense. Hill is a good defender, but merely a competent ball-handler and a bit lacking in court vision for a point guard. He can put up pretty decent numbers on offense when there is ball movement, but when there isn't going to be the one to create points or start breaking down the defense.

West is getting older and less mobile, which being slightly undersized for his position hurts him more than for a bigger PF, it also means his playing closer in to the basket, which doesn't help him as a distributor, and can make it harder to get a pass to him.

Also since they only have one player who is really able to be counted on as an offensive first option, in George, at least 2 of the group of West, Hibbert, Stevenson, and Hill have to be having a decent night on offense for them to win. Otherwise all the defense in the world can't beat an above average team.

Their second issue is no true leader, George really needed another year before he would have been ready for the roll. West doesn't have the personality for it and neither does Vogal. Hill has the personality but can't do it as an only moderately talented fairly young player. Hibbert might be able to but hasn't stepped up. Bird definitely can't do it from the GM spot even though he has made a few attempts.

Finally their final issue is panic, though it is partially related to the first two. This is a team that depends on team scoring and ball movement for their offense, that sort of team, can't panic and fall into pointing fingers, it definitely can't go into isolation scoring mode to try and get their points.

[ElNono]

Lot of blame to go around, tbh... easy to focus on Hill because his limitations are fairly evident, always have been... but:

- coach run them to the ground chasing that imaginary #1 seed bliss
- West can't back up what comes out of his mouth
- Stephenson thinks he's way better than he really is (typical cancer)
- Hibbert consistently underwhelms and then bitches about it
- George needs to stop feeding TMZ

Distractions, bitching to the media...

They're a flawed team, but a lot of that stuff is still correctable and no team in this league isn't flawed one way or another, so they can still get it together heading into the playoffs.

[Sybok]

I think they'll be ok, but they do need a true PG. They don't have a point forward type player and Hill is a 2 guard at best. He'd be ok off the bench to bring energy and push the pace, but the starting lineup needs to have a true point guard. Outside of that, no it's not George's fault. He's frustrated like everyone else, and Frank Vogel is overrated as a coach. He's got a deep bench and does nothing with it. He's got Hibbert and West on the floor at the same time, but doesn't use them because Paul George and Lance Stephenson are too busy playing Durant/Westbrook.

[Sybok]

Looking at the pacers they seem to have three serious issues. First is that they get very stagnant on offense and don't move the ball. This is because they don't have many real scoring threats or natural distributors. Paul George isn't quite ready yet, and he isn't the passer at small forward that Granger at his peak was, which means teams can concentrate on him more. Hibbert is streaky and prone to disappearing on offense and on the glass. Stevenson is J.R. Smith but more willing to play defense and with a bit less talent on offense. Hill is a good defender, but merely a competent ball-handler and a bit lacking in court vision for a point guard. He can put up pretty decent numbers on offense when there is ball movement, but when there isn't going to be the one to create points or start breaking down the defense.

West is getting older and less mobile, which being slightly undersized for his position hurts him more than for a bigger PF, it also means his playing closer in to the basket, which doesn't help him as a distributor, and can make it harder to get a pass to him.

Also since they only have one player who is really able to be counted on as an offensive first option, in George, at least 2 of the group of West, Hibbert, Stevenson, and Hill have to be having a decent night on offense for them to win. Otherwise all the defense in the world can't beat an above average team.

Their second issue is no true leader, George really needed another year before he would have been ready for the roll. West doesn't have the personality for it and neither does Vogal. Hill has the personality but can't do it as an only moderately talented fairly young player. Hibbert might be able to but hasn't stepped up. Bird definitely can't do it from the GM spot even though he has made a few attempts.

Finally their final issue is panic, though it is partially related to the first two. This is a team that depends on team scoring and ball movement for their offense, that sort of team, can't panic and fall into pointing fingers, it definitely can't go into isolation scoring mode to try and get their points.

Solid take. Most of that can be attributed to the coach who can be attributed to the GM who can be attributed to the owner. It's amusing to me then that owners get less credit for team success than do coaches.

[Mikeanaro]

Pacers current situation is... the whole team is fading away and thats everybody fault not just Hill come on guys even when he is the weakest piece this team was the best ´till the last 25 games now the spark(peaking) is gone and shit happens, same with Portland its useless to blame one particular player when all of them are falling apart.

[TheyCallMePro]

It's amazing to me that a mere 3 years ago I wanted him to be our starting point guard and for us to trade Tony Parker. I thought George Hill's size, length, and athleticism as well as his superior outside shooting and youth would be a better fit for the Spurs long-term than Parker, who was struggling back then.

But DAMN. George Hill has been a complete bust. His ball handling has always been suspect, even here in SA, but I thought he'd improve on that over time. Instead he's gotten even worse. Furthermore, his outside shooting has declined, and he just looks so much slower than he did when he was with us 3 years ago. To be frank, he's nothing more than a decent/below average point guard right now, which is stunning.

I think he deserves A LOT of blame for the Pacers situation. He's one of the many critical pieces on their team who has very little talent (Hibbert and DWest being the other two). I mean when you have a point guard who turns the ball over constantly, doesn't have a consistent outside shot, and is too slow to drive to the basket? Damn. But in his defense, Paul George controls the ball a lot on the offensive end, and the Pacers as a whole are just a team with very little talent and and no shooters. And they don't have a bench to speak of. Talent wise I'd say they're around 20-25 out of the 30 teams in the NBA. Stunning for a team with such a gaudy record. But then again, that's what happens when you play 2/3 of your games vs the East.

[CitizenDwayne]

They rely greatly on Lance fucking Stephenson. That's the root of their problems, as well as George and Hibbert crashing back to Earth.

Hill isn't very good, but they have bigger problems to address

[Baam]

The number one culprit is Hibbert the mental midget... Guy is getting the max and is supposed to be in his prime yet he sucks balls and cries publicly about his teammates flaws... Also losing Granger and adding Turner and Bynum who are total opposite to blue collars was a bad idea, obviously fucked up their chemistry...

[Baam]

They rely greatly on Lance fucking Stephenson. That's the root of their problems, as well as George and Hibbert crashing back to Earth.

Hill isn't very good, but they have bigger problems to address

Once Stephenson is gone this summer they become a treadmill team tbh...

[toki9]

Stephenson is one of Larry Bird's favorite players...so who knows what that does in the locker room when it seems pretty obvious that the other players have issues with the guy...

[EVAY]

George Hill was always over-rated here, imo. As said in so many places by so many people, Pop's system makes a lot of players look better than they are/were/would be in another system. E.g., see Green, Danny; Diaw, Boris;Mills, Patty; etc. etc. etc.

George Hill was another 'system' success. But the offense always suffered when he was in charge of it here. Whenever Tony went out for whatever reason, the offense got stagnant and George would dribble around and around and around before figuring out what to do. Pop loved him because he was a hard worker. Pop always loves hard workers.

I don't think he's working as hard any more.

I think their coach messed them all up this year, but georgie didn't help at all.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's unreal how bad Roy Hibbert has become, tbh..

He was always overrated, but at least he was showing significant offensive improvements by working with Timmy, etc..

Not only has his game collapsed, but he has become a locker room cancer with his interviews..telling the media that the locker room has some selfish players is a selfish move in itself, and demonstrates a lack of maturity..

[Vic Petro]

Looking at the pacers they seem to have three serious issues. First is that they get very stagnant on offense and don't move the ball. This is because they don't have many real scoring threats or natural distributors. Paul George isn't quite ready yet, and he isn't the passer at small forward that Granger at his peak was, which means teams can concentrate on him more. Hibbert is streaky and prone to disappearing on offense and on the glass. Stevenson is J.R. Smith but more willing to play defense and with a bit less talent on offense. Hill is a good defender, but merely a competent ball-handler and a bit lacking in court vision for a point guard. He can put up pretty decent numbers on offense when there is ball movement, but when there isn't going to be the one to create points or start breaking down the defense.

West is getting older and less mobile, which being slightly undersized for his position hurts him more than for a bigger PF, it also means his playing closer in to the basket, which doesn't help him as a distributor, and can make it harder to get a pass to him.

Also since they only have one player who is really able to be counted on as an offensive first option, in George, at least 2 of the group of West, Hibbert, Stevenson, and Hill have to be having a decent night on offense for them to win. Otherwise all the defense in the world can't beat an above average team.

Their second issue is no true leader, George really needed another year before he would have been ready for the roll. West doesn't have the personality for it and neither does Vogal. Hill has the personality but can't do it as an only moderately talented fairly young player. Hibbert might be able to but hasn't stepped up. Bird definitely can't do it from the GM spot even though he has made a few attempts.

Finally their final issue is panic, though it is partially related to the first two. This is a team that depends on team scoring and ball movement for their offense, that sort of team, can't panic and fall into pointing fingers, it definitely can't go into isolation scoring mode to try and get their points.

this is a good post but I would argue that West absolutely has the personality to be a leader and is their leader in the same way Eric Snow and Aaron McKie were the real leaders of those Sixer teams. The bigger question is whether it's important that your leader is one of your 1-2 best players, which I think it is.

[HarlemHeat37]

I think most people really underestimate Indiana's lack of overall talent, tbh..

Everybody seems to ignore the fact that they had the easiest or 2nd easiest schedule in the NBA during the 1st half of the season, along with George/Stephenson/Hibbert playing way above their heads..

[POPownsJackson]

George Hill is receive blame for Indiana to be bad but other George (one with dick pic on shemale computer) is more to blame. Also hill is give us pick to get Kawhi who very good and soon be top 10 and Charle Barkley is say on TNT

[Embedded]

I agree, I don't think George Hill is working as hard as when he was with us. I know Tim Duncan caught heat from this forum for working out with Roy Hibbert during the offseason. But now I think it might have been Tim Duncan that benefited from using Roy Hibbert to hone his game - who is going to give him that kind of burn? I don't think Tiago Splitter is as good as Roy Hibbert, although I'm happy with having Tiago Splitter.


I do think in hindsight that trading Danny Granger had a hugely negative impact.

[mercos]

Hill should not receive much of the blame for the Pacers collapse. He was not overly responsible for their success, so he shouldn't get blame for their fall. This is on Paul George and Roy Hibbert. Hibbert has the physical tools to be a dominant NBA player, but he has never been able to play well consistently.

[Chinook]

I think most people really underestimate Indiana's lack of overall talent, tbh..

Everybody seems to ignore the fact that they had the easiest or 2nd easiest schedule in the NBA during the 1st half of the season, along with George/Stephenson/Hibbert playing way above their heads..

Yeah, the Pacers lack talent or in the very least have very flawed talent. Their lack of a viable offensive system makes that lack of talent even worse. They have to rely on fluke performances and Hibbert hiding behind the verticality rule to win.

[BatManu20]

It's unreal how bad Roy Hibbert has become, tbh..

He was always overrated, but at least he was showing significant offensive improvements by working with Timmy, etc..

Not only has his game collapsed, but he has become a locker room cancer with his interviews..telling the media that the locker room has some selfish players is a selfish move in itself, and demonstrates a lack of maturity..

This tbh. Can't believe how much he's dropped off in such a short amount of time. He looks awful.

[CitizenDwayne]

It seems strange that so many in the media still have Hibbert as the obvious choice for DPOY, when lately he's looking like a poor man's Tiago Splitter

[dunkman]

It's not really Hill's fault. He is a SG on offense, and a good one. Fine outside shooting, driving, FT's. But he's not a PG, has no vision and struggles passing the half court. It was hard to believe the Pacers choosed him as their starting PG. Bird and Vogel should have noticed that.

[cd021]

It's not about his leadership, at all, tbh..

He's a PG that can't dribble a basketball..when you watch a Pacers game, you see that they're always late getting into their sets and that they struggle mightily against full court pressure..their only guard that can penetrate off the dribble is Lance Stephenson, a cancer and one of the most overrated players in the league..

Larry Bird deserves a large portion of the blame for failing to address the issue..

i agree. I think a player like Jameer Nelson would have been a much better get than Evan Turner. Nelson is a much better P&R player and is posting 7 APG to 2.4 T.Os per game.

Turner can't shoot or defend and needs the ball to be effective.

The Suns made Bird look like a clown by acquiring Scola (who is in decline) for a 1st round this season (currently 26th) Plumlee (a 2012 1st rounder) and Gerald Green.

For all of the work to improve their bench its still pretty damn bad not to mention their offense is a joke.

[cd021]

It's not really Hill's fault. He is a SG on offense, and a good one. Fine outside shooting, driving, FT's. But he's not a PG, has no vision and struggles passing the half court. It was hard to believe the Pacers choosed him as their starting PG. Bird and Vogel should have noticed that.

"Hill is more combo guard than point guard. He averages just 2.7 drives per game, the second-lowest figure among all starting point guards, per SportVU tracking data. He just isn’t going to generate any easy drive-and-dish buckets."


He is logging 32 mpg but is getting to the line just 2.5 times a game.

[cd021]

It seems strange that so many in the media still have Hibbert as the obvious choice for DPOY, when lately he's looking like a poor man's Tiago Splitter

He does a great job of protecting the rim but he probably doesn't deserve the awards any more than the likes of Noah or Gasol and Ibaka helping anchor top defenses.

Splitter does compare pretty closely to Hibbert

Splitter-21.5 MPG-8.1 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 52.6% ($10 Million this season) P.E.R 16.5

Hibbert-29.9 MPG, 11 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 44.7% ($14.2 Million this season) P.E.R 13.8

Hibbert's DRtg is 98 compared to Splitters 101 but Splitter is +13 to Hibberts +3 in Net Rtg.

[baseline bum]

Hibbert is shooting 33% in their last 10 games. Holy fuck, how does a bigman shoot 33% in a sample size that large? That's 10 points worse than Olowokandi. For all the shit people give Ayres, he's shooting 58% for the season (and 71% in his last 10 games). How the fuck does Hibbert disrespect his teammates when he is their worst player right now?

[HarlemHeat37]

Hibbert is shooting 33% in their last 10 games. Holy fuck, how does a bigman shoot 33% in a sample size that large? That's 10 points worse than Olowokandi. For all the shit people give Ayres, he's shooting 58% for the season (and 71% in his last 10 games). How the fuck does Hibbert disrespect his teammates when he is their worst player right now?

He has a total of 24 rebounds in the past 8 games :lmao:lmao..no homo..

[baseline bum]

Was that ECF last year just a reflection of Wade being broken down? How did that team ever take Miami to 7?

[Gagnrath]

That team can be pretty beast on defense and when West or George is rolling offensively it opens things up for other players and suddenly the team can score. Add in Miami not really having a center and hibbert being on one of his good streaks and yeah they challenged the heat.
Actually did a bit more looking into things since my earlier reply and based on what people say about his AAU and OSU days it sounds like even turner is something of a head case who can sow lock room dissention. So I think I am also going to lay lots of the issues on that since by all accounts granger was still a big part of the pacers leadership wise while turner causes issues and derides teammates.

[Mel_13]

Bird should shoulder most of the blame. His moves since last year's ECF have not merely failed for this season, but they cost assets for future seasons.

[poop]

They gon get raped. Miami gets cakewalk to fhe finals as usual.

[TXstbobcat]

I drove from Minneapolis to go to the spurs game at Indianapolis recently and most of the pacers fans that I sat near were blaming it on the coaching and the lack of ball movement.

[wildbill2u]

I don't think I've ever seen a supposedly top tier team go into the playoffs with such a piss poor attitude and terrible closing record. The upshot of the Pacers breakdown is that Miami has a much easier road in the weakened East to the NBA finals this year. Miami will probably sweep in the first round and close out the other playoffs series in 5 or 6.

In contrast, the West will be a dogfight in every series and you could see seven game playoff series all over the place.

[Embedded]

He has a total of 24 rebounds in the past 8 games :lmao:lmao..no homo.. ROFLMFAO I didn't really know who Roy Hibbert was until that interview.

[Dverde]

That Heat performance is undefendable. 0 points and 0 shots.

[lmbebo]

Losing always brings out other issues.

I think Hibbert has a piss poor attitude at the moment. Paul George came back down to his baseline, which is good, but not a top 5 talent like he was playing at earlier this year.

I don't shoulder the blame on G.Hill. He was never a creating type of point guard. I think they wanted some of that to come out of Paul George and Stephenson. I think if G. Hill had that ability, it would help some of the issues they have. But the team was built with this known flaw.

[hitmantb]

Hibbert makes or breaks that team.

He was playing like Yao Ming last year against the Heat. 20/10 consistently.

To go that from 0 points 1 rebound is disturbing, something is totally messed up with his mind.

Same with George Hill, 0 points as starting point guard.

I think the rest of the team is OK, but you can not have two starters with 0 points.

[boutons_deux]

hibb 0-9 today

[HarlemHeat37]

Indiana's offense looked far better today with a PG that can dribble a basketball, tbh..

[TampaDude]

Looking more and more like a Spurs-Heat rematch, tbh...

[CitizenDwayne]

He has a total of 24 rebounds in the past 8 games :lmao:lmao..no homo..

:wow

[Mark in Austin]

Blame the training staff:
Hibbert runs out of gas EVERY YEAR. They need to change up his training / diet / rest him some to keep him fresh throughout the year.

Blame the GM:
Rondo coulda been had w/ Granger+Hill+picks. It's not Hill's fault he's being forced to start at PG instead of his more natural role of combo guard off the bench. And Evan Turner was a bad, bad, terrible choice. If it was that or keep Granger, they shoulda kept him.

Blame the coach:
Offense stagnant / ineffective? Have the guts to make a change. No ball movement = death.

[SuperManu!!!]

All i know is that pacers have 3 ex spurs......G.Hill, Scola and Ian Mahimi. They seem to like our garbage :p

[Mel_13]

All i know is that pacers have 3 ex spurs......G.Hill, Scola and Ian Mahimi. They seem to like our garbage :p

In addition to paying them a total of over 16M per year, the Pacers gave up the following assets to acquire them:

1. The draft pick used to select Kawhi Leonard
2. The draft pick used to select Davis Bertans
3. Miles Plumlee
4. Gerald Green
5. A future first round pick
6. Darren Collison
7. Dahntay Jones

Larry Bird- 2012 Executive of the Year

[heyheymymy]

In addition to paying them a total of over 16M per year, the Pacers gave up the following assets to acquire them:

1. The draft pick used to select Kawhi Leonard
2. The draft pick used to select Davis Bertans
3. Miles Plumlee
4. Gerald Green
5. A future first round pick
6. Darren Collison
7. Dahntay Jones

Larry Bird- 2012 Executive of the Year

wow epic fail

[MI21]

In addition to paying them a total of over 16M per year, the Pacers gave up the following assets to acquire them:

1. The draft pick used to select Kawhi Leonard
2. The draft pick used to select Davis Bertans
3. Miles Plumlee
4. Gerald Green
5. A future first round pick
6. Darren Collison
7. Dahntay Jones

Larry Bird- 2012 Executive of the Year

Phoenix really did make out like bandits in the Scola deal.

[Gagnrath]

Scola was never a spur, never suited up for a game so why pretend like he was?

[spurraider21]

I think most people really underestimate Indiana's lack of overall talent, tbh..

Everybody seems to ignore the fact that they had the easiest or 2nd easiest schedule in the NBA during the 1st half of the season, along with George/Stephenson/Hibbert playing way above their heads..
true. i think a lot of it stemmed from people thinking George had taken yet another step forward, which was believable based on his NBA improvement by year to date. stephenson/hibbert were also guys that people expected to improve. turns out those were merely mirages (with the exception of lance stephenson who is still vastly improved from last year, even now)

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

The problem is Stephenson not Hill. Stephenson is their penetrating player, but he is a ball hog at times. When he passes, the Pacers win most of the time, but when he goes into hero ball mode, the Pacers struggle. Same to goes with OKC and Westbrook.

Hill has no worse dribbling abilities than Derek Fisher. Pacers system anyways is more isolation and penetration, with a few screens up top. Problem arise when players penetrate and force shots instead of passing. Last night, Stephenson was actually finding his teammates and the Pacers won.

[Mel_13]

Phoenix really did make out like bandits in the Scola deal.

Especially when you consider that their cost to acquire him in the first place was smaller than an MLE-sized chunk of cap space.

[look_at_g_shred]

It's easy for Hill to be indiana's scapegoat. Hill has never been that much of a playmaker himself, so expecting that of him at this point of his career is comedic. Some nights he's great, and then other nights he's invisible. The pacers knew what they were getting when they traded for him. Damn that trade has worked out so well (in our favor) Of course they are not going to blame hibbert who has performed below his ability the second half of the season. The guy can't even rebound anymore. He has no lift, and is not the rim protector he prided himself to be at the beginning of the season. The guy is clearly overrated at the moment. Oh yeah and then there is their star player. If PG knew how to get his teammates involved, he and his team would be so much better. I was watching them play OKC yesterday and what I saw from them, when they bring it up to their side of the court, whoever has the ball just dribbles and dribbles. They don't run any set plays (or at least it didn't look like it). But when they move the ball and make quick decisions, it works for them as for any team I would assume. They all look like they want to do it themselves, which if they don't turn it around, it may prove deadly for Indy. I think the problem has to be solved collectively, and not just one player. It also doesn't help when Hibbert calls out his teammates to the media. I think that Granger trade may have done more harm then good.

[Embedded]

Hibbert 0 for 9? No points? Something is very strange.

[Mel_13]

The Pacers were much better last night with Hill at SG. Among the many people who don't think that Hill is a PG is George Hill himself:

In the team’s 101-85 Game 2 win on Tuesday, Vogel used a backcourt of Hill and C.J. Watson for much of the game, which worked defensively and freed Hill up to be himself. The Indy native doesn’t like being dubbed as a point guard but simply as a “guard.”

“That’s what I’ve been my whole life, a scorer at the wing spot,” Hill said after scoring 15 points all in the second half, including 10 in the third quarter on 5-of-6 shooting. “With C.J., I don’t have to worry about play calls or trying to set guys up and figuring out who’s getting touches. It gave me an opportunity to be aggressive and play my game.”

Vogel’s move was in part made to allow Hill to play his natural position. But he also did it for defensive purposes.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/hill-plays-his-game