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View Full Version : The Hissing Sound You Hear Is The Economy Collapsing



Nbadan
08-08-2005, 03:36 AM
This is the way the bubble ends: not with a pop, but with a hiss.

Housing prices move much more slowly than stock prices. There are no Black Mondays, when prices fall 23 percent in a day. In fact, prices often keep rising for a while even after a housing boom goes bust.

So the news that the U.S. housing bubble is over won't come in the form of plunging prices; it will come in the form of falling sales and rising inventory, as sellers try to get prices that buyers are no longer willing to pay. And the process may already have started.

Of course, some people still deny that there's a housing bubble. Let me explain how we know that they're wrong.

One piece of evidence is the sense of frenzy about real estate, which irresistibly brings to mind the stock frenzy of 1999. Even some of the players are the same. The authors of the 1999 best seller "Dow 36,000" are now among the most vocal proponents of the view that there is no housing bubble.

Then there are the numbers. Many bubble deniers point to average prices for the country as a whole, which look worrisome but not totally crazy. When it comes to housing, however, the United States is really two countries, Flatland and the Zoned Zone.

In Flatland, which occupies the middle of the country, it's easy to build houses. When the demand for houses rises, Flatland metropolitan areas, which don't really have traditional downtowns, just sprawl some more. As a result, housing prices are basically determined by the cost of construction. In Flatland, a housing bubble can't even get started.

But in the Zoned Zone, which lies along the coasts, a combination of high population density and land-use restrictions - hence "zoned" - makes it hard to build new houses. So when people become willing to spend more on houses, say because of a fall in mortgage rates, some houses get built, but the prices of existing houses also go up. And if people think that prices will continue to rise, they become willing to spend even more, driving prices still higher, and so on. In other words, the Zoned Zone is prone to housing bubbles.

And Zoned Zone housing prices, which have risen much faster than the national average, clearly point to a bubble.

In the nation as a whole, housing prices rose about 50 percent between the first quarter of 2000 and the first quarter of 2005. But that average blends results from Flatland metropolitan areas like Houston and Atlanta, where prices rose 26 and 29 percent respectively, with results from Zoned Zone areas like New York, Miami and San Diego, where prices rose 77, 96 and 118 percent.

Nobody would pay San Diego prices without believing that prices will continue to rise. Rents rose much more slowly than prices: the Bureau of Labor Statistics index of "owners' equivalent rent" rose only 27 percent from late 1999 to late 2004. Business Week reports that by 2004 the cost of renting a house in San Diego was only 40 percent of the cost of owning a similar house - even taking into account low interest rates on mortgages. So it makes sense to buy in San Diego only if you believe that prices will keep rising rapidly, generating big capital gains. That's pretty much the definition of a bubble.

Bubbles end when people stop believing that big capital gains are a sure thing. That's what happened in San Diego at the end of its last housing bubble: after a rapid rise, house prices peaked in 1990. Soon there was a glut of houses on the market, and prices began falling. By 1996, they had declined about 25 percent after adjusting for inflation.

And that's what's happening in San Diego right now, after a rise in house prices that dwarfs the boom of the 1980's. The number of single-family houses and condos on the market has doubled over the past year. "Homes that a year or two ago sold virtually overnight - in many cases triggering bidding wars - are on the market for weeks," reports The Los Angeles Times. The same thing is happening in other formerly hot markets.

Meanwhile, the U.S. economy has become deeply dependent on the housing bubble. The economic recovery since 2001 has been disappointing in many ways, but it wouldn't have happened at all without soaring spending on residential construction, plus a surge in consumer spending largely based on mortgage refinancing. Did I mention that the personal savings rate has fallen to zero?

Now we're starting to hear a hissing sound, as the air begins to leak out of the bubble. And everyone - not just those who own Zoned Zone real estate - should be worried.

Krugman, NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/opinion/08krugman.html?pagewanted=print&oref=login)

Construction of new homes/new home sales/unrealistic appreciation in home prices. It's not just part of the hot economy - it is the economy. Take that away from us and what are we left with? Stagnant wages since 2000.

Once again many people will learn the hard way that what goes up, must eventually come down. How hard we come down in San Antonio, clearly part of Krugman's flatland, will be interesting to see. I'm betting 10-20 initially.

SWC Bonfire
08-08-2005, 08:38 AM
Bubbles end when people stop believing that big capital gains are a sure thing.

Last I checked, you still have to live somewhere, whether that means you turn your home around for sale every 2 years or not.

What this article doesn't account for is the huge number of people & families that move into Texas each year. For the rest of the nation, that may be true.

But yes, housing is a huge part of the economy because unlike those in Europe, we are actually still a growing country.

Jelly
08-08-2005, 10:49 AM
Man NBADan, you're a real downer. Do you ever post anything positive or do you really believe the sky is falling?

mookie2001
08-08-2005, 10:58 AM
theres not much good politcal news to report on
obviously dan isnt a rightwinger so hes not gonna continue the fucking knobslobberfest much of this country has with this stupidass president

SWC Bonfire
08-08-2005, 11:04 AM
theres not much good politcal news to report on
obviously dan isnt a rightwinger so hes not gonna continue the fucking knobslobberfest much of this country has with this stupidass president

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? :lol

Very intelligent post. I take it you don't own a house, and probably won't in the near future, so when you finally get around to it, prices will be cheaper for you. There, I found a silver lining for ya.

mookie2001
08-08-2005, 11:08 AM
youre right i dont own a house
ive lived in some before and have seen a lot too

Marcus Bryant
08-08-2005, 11:51 AM
Wishful thinking.

Extra Stout
08-08-2005, 02:13 PM
In "Flatland," there is no bubble. All that will happen is that real estate prices will appreciate more slowly or stagnate for a while to fall back in line with real incomes. That is part of the normal cycle.

In the "Zoned Zone," yes, there will be a bubble popping. A lot of this price escalation is being driven up by speculators who snatch up real estate or push through development projects, then turn around and rent out the properties while waiting for their windfall. But the rents are well below the mortgage payments, so even if prices were just to stagnate, those speculators still lose their shirt.

The key thing for people moving into those overheated markets to understand in order not to get burned is that right now it's better to rent rather than buy. The other thing to keep in mind is that once the bottom drops out, it creates somewhat more affordable housing for a larger chunk of the middle class.

Meanwhile, I do expect the rising interest rates to take a little steam out of the housing sector, even in "Flatland," but not enough to throw the economy off-course.

I've been reading these predictions of economic doom from lefties for years now. They keep not coming true. It is like a kind of wishful thinking by those skeptical of capitalism.

To be fair, I don't like the deficit, and I understand that defense spending dwarfs things like pork-laden boondoggle highway bills that annoy me to no end. I question whether our very expensive aggressive foreign policy strategy is cost-effective, or even effective, but that's another thread.

Nbadan
08-08-2005, 03:14 PM
In "Flatland," there is no bubble. All that will happen is that real estate prices will appreciate more slowly or stagnate for a while to fall back in line with real incomes. That is part of the normal cycle.

True to some degree, but the point Krugman is making is that our economy is being driven by new home construction and people cashing in on home resale appreciation and the dreaded new low-down to no-down mortgages. If the housing market stagnates our economy stagnants unless we start creating a bunch of new jobs in another industry really quick.

SWC Bonfire
08-08-2005, 03:27 PM
Well, the fundamental demand for housing is still in place in Texas and will be for quite some time. The problem with blaming the housing industry for an overall decline in the economy is that real estate and housing have always been regionally diverse. When some of the country was going strong real estate-wise in the 1980's, it was dirt cheap in areas of Texas because of the oilfield bust. Now oilfield-related industries in Texas are going strong, as well as the thousands of companies that have moved here from out of state. Instead of looking at the booming housing industry as a fake facade of a failing economy, perhaps the writer of this article should consider it as some of the diversification that the economy needs. A hedge against economic downturn, if you will.

Nbadan
08-08-2005, 03:48 PM
Well, the fundamental demand for housing is still in place in Texas and will be for quite some time. The problem with blaming the housing industry for an overall decline in the economy is that real estate and housing have always been regionally diverse. When some of the country was going strong real estate-wise in the 1980's, it was dirt cheap in areas of Texas because of the oilfield bust. Now oilfield-related industries in Texas are going strong, as well as the thousands of companies that have moved here from out of state. Instead of looking at the booming housing industry as a fake facade of a failing economy, perhaps the writer of this article should consider it as some of the diversification that the economy needs. A hedge against economic downturn, if you will.

Diversification is a good thing, but many people have hedged a lot of money on the gamble that real estate prices would keep rising even in the Zoned zone areas. New home construction is the number one industry driving the Bush economy. It leads to more schools being built, and teachers being hired, and people into 'thinking' their richer when their homes prices double in less than 10 years, so they start spending more. This is where the real fascade of the expanding ecomomy is, not in Krugman article.

Extra Stout
08-09-2005, 08:37 AM
Diversification is a good thing, but many people have hedged a lot of money on the gamble that real estate prices would keep rising even in the Zoned zone areas. New home construction is the number one industry driving the Bush economy. It leads to more schools being built, and teachers being hired, and people into 'thinking' their richer when their homes prices double in less than 10 years, so they start spending more. This is where the real fascade of the expanding ecomomy is, not in Krugman article.I believe low interest rates were driving the ongoing surge in new home construction, not the sharp rise in real estate prices on the coasts.

There are still a lot of homes going up for first-time buyers in "Flatland." There's some coastal leftie myopia going on with regard to these bubbles -- they're affecting the people wealthy enough to afford those outrageous prices! Families just moving upward into the middle class aren't going to be buying single-family homes in San Diego or Boston the way they can in Houston or Dallas. Not very many people can afford to pay $500,000 for a house, but a lot of people can afford $100,000 to $200,000 --- and that is the price range where homes are flying up in "Flatland."

Now as interest rates rise, homes become less affordable for those people, and real estate prices will plateau to compensate somewhat. Will that take all the steam out of the economy? My industry's forecasts say no, but they do expect demand to slacken a bit from the feverish pace of the first half of 2005.

Krugman is a brilliant economist sometimes, but his seething hatred for Bush causes him to lapse into irrational pessimism. Yes, there is a real estate bubble in some markets. No, it's not nationwide. No, wealthy liberals on the coasts renovating their kitchens are not singlehandedly driving the economy. And no, things are not about to collapse.

Nbadan
08-09-2005, 02:17 PM
Now as interest rates rise, homes become less affordable for those people, and real estate prices will plateau to compensate somewhat. Will that take all the steam out of the economy? My industry's forecasts say no, but they do expect demand to slacken a bit from the feverish pace of the first half of 2005.[QUOTE]

Prehaps your letting your own circumstance affect your forcast because there is a lot of weakness in this supposed economic recovery that the numbers don't always show. Just today the Treasury Sec. had to admit that trickle down economics, the income distribution system preferred by Republicans, is a farce...

Snow Concedes Economic Surge Is Not Benefiting People Equally
By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 9, 2005; Page A03

Treasury Secretary John W. Snow acknowledged yesterday that the fruits of strong economic growth are not spreading equally to less educated Americans, as he and the rest of President Bush's economic team prepared to meet today to discuss wages and income distribution in an otherwise surging economy.

The meeting at the president's ranch near Crawford, Tex., will be convened amid evidence that the economy is gaining steam and that voters are dissatisfied with Bush's handling of the economy. Snow and other administration officials say strong consumer demand for housing, cars and other big-ticket items indicates that the negative message voters are giving pollsters on the economy is belied by their open wallets.<snip>

<snip>"People are feeling vulnerable to global economic conditions," said Stanley Greenberg, another Democratic pollster. "The difficult labor market continues. There's a sense that they lack clout, an ability to command higher wages."

[B]A study released yesterday by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office focuses on "unprecedented" declines in the workforce in the wake of the 2001 recession that continued through early 2005. Job growth in this economic recovery has been substantially slower than previous recoveries, the CBO said./B]

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/08/AR2005080801445.html)

Extra Stout
08-10-2005, 08:15 AM
Treasury Secretary John W. Snow acknowledged yesterday that the fruits of strong economic growth are not spreading equally to less educated Americans, as he and the rest of President Bush's economic team prepared to meet today to discuss wages and income distribution in an otherwise surging economy.I certainly won't deny that those without education can't participate in economic growth. That's true regardless of who is sitting in the Oval Office. And, it has absolutely nothing to do with the contention that the economy is about to collapse because of a housing bubble, because the uneducated haven't been participating in the boom in the first place. I'd love to improve education in this country, and that's why I'm wary of what might happen in the future with NCLB and other programs. It's also why I will vote for school bond issues unless they are sloppily planned or wasteful.

But home ownership in this country is around 70%, so it's not like some tiny fraction of the country is participating in the real estate market. But I guarantee you that the vast majority of those folks aren't buying $500,000 homes in Boston or other crowded coastal cities.


The meeting at the president's ranch near Crawford, Tex., will be convened amid evidence that the economy is gaining steam and that voters are dissatisfied with Bush's handling of the economy. Snow and other administration officials say strong consumer demand for housing, cars and other big-ticket items indicates that the negative message voters are giving pollsters on the economy is belied by their open wallets.Gas prices. People drive by and see the signs with all the squiggly numbers and blame it on the President.

mookie2001
08-10-2005, 08:24 AM
does we use any oil in iraq?
i mean the tanks, humvees, fighters, and shit
theyre all electric right?

Marcus Bryant
08-10-2005, 08:27 AM
Yes, not all housing markets are created equal. More news @ 11.

What is likely to happen are that rising rates will lead to a decrease in the rate of appreciation in most suburban properties in flyover country. Forecasts of a national meltdown are overstated.

As for doom and gloom East Coast economists, Shiller is the one to listen to today. Krugman is nothing but a partisan hack.

Anyways, the one good thing about Americans, despite our rampant inability to be frugal and save, is that we sprout wood over home ownership.

Extra Stout
08-10-2005, 02:45 PM
does we use any oil in iraq?
i mean the tanks, humvees, fighters, and shit
theyre all electric right?This is a grownup thread. Back to the sandbox with you.

Vashner
08-10-2005, 03:12 PM
haha Liberals tried that "it's the economy stupid" and got fucking owned. I am suprised you have the balls to post this weak shit..
Find something really broken next time. BTW Bill Clinton and Al Gore had jack fucking shit to do with the 90's and Y2K IT boom. That was Bill Gates, Cisco, US military and schools turning green mono office into color screens with mice.

JohnnyMarzetti
08-10-2005, 03:15 PM
haha Liberals tried that "it's the economy stupid" and got fucking owned. I am suprised you have the balls to post this weak shit..
Find something really broken next time. BTW Bill Clinton and Al Gore had jack fucking shit to do with the 90's and Y2K IT boom. That was Bill Gates, Cisco, US military and schools turning green mono office into color screens with mice.

Yeah, like the war in Iraq, the Energy Bill, CAFTA, Immigration, Education, the environment and everything else Dubya is fucking up.