Where are all those FO haters at now?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Regardless if we lose or win this game, where is Great Yacht, Skull and all the others hating on Splitter and Manu being re-signed? Our front office has done it again...

[Malik Hairston]

Belinelli and Ayres..

[Mal]

Belinelli and Ayres..

Beli was good in regular season. Not bad signing tbh

[timtonymanu]

Belinelli and Ayres..

/thread

The Manu and Splitter signings were overpaid, but I had no problem bringing them back.

[Malik Hairston]

Beli was good in regular season. Not bad signing tbh

Sure, but it wasn't a necessary signing, tbh, they could have filled the need for a SF..

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Sure, but it wasn't a necessary signing, tbh, they could have filled the need for a SF..

I really wouldn't mind Manu playing the 3, fwiw

[objective]

MLE was completely wasted. They had the entire MLE plus the option of using the amnesty on Bonner. They NEEDED to add a player who could play in a finals game 7. Instead, they couldn't even get a player who could be in a round ONE game 7.

DISGRACEFUL

[ChumpDumper]

lol spurfan loves melting down after a win.

[Raven]

the front office work looks worse every day, only retards would have questioned the splitter resign given he was around the top 5 in defensive rating, aside from splitter, the rest was beyond awful..

[Cry Havoc]

MLE was completely wasted. They had the entire MLE plus the option of using the amnesty on Bonner. They NEEDED to add a player who could play in a finals game 7. Instead, they couldn't even get a player who could be in a round ONE game 7.

DISGRACEFUL

Who would you have signed? Since you're such a genius when it comes to free agency and all.

[Seventyniner]

lol spurfan loves melting down

Fixed

[rascal]

Right here.

[ChumpDumper]

FixedTrue enough. The ones after wins are funny as hell though. They can't enjoy anything about spurfandom.

[rascal]

Pumping up your chest because your are about to beat the weakest team in the west.

[SupremeGuy]

No one had a problem with them being resigned, I think it's just a general consensus that we may have overpaid a bit for Splitter and DEFINITELY overpaid for Manu.

[dallasmaverickslose]

I hate the FO.

[SupremeGuy]

Pumping up your chest because your are about to beat the weakest team in the west.GO SPURS GO? :cry

:flag:

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

No one had a problem with them being resigned, I think it's just a general consensus that we may have overpaid a bit for Splitter and DEFINITELY overpaid for Manu.

Doesn't look that way to me, tbh

[rascal]

Regardless if we lose or win this game, where is Great Yacht, Skull and all the others hating on Splitter and Manu being re-signed? Our front office has done it again...

The front office watched the lakers beat a Robinson/Duncan team in back to back to back titles because they could not surround Robinson/Duncan with enough backcourt talent.

[Spurs21Fan4Ever]

Didn't the Spurs have the possibility of picking up Batum a couple years ago but chose to resign Bonner and Neal?

[rascal]

The front office is too damn conservative. Running out the same team year after year.

[Sean Cagney]

Belinelli and Ayres..

BIG BLACK EYE, I agree. We had dough to spend and come back with that crap in return. I would have gone for Ellis in a heartbeat over those two bums.

[tim_duncan_fan]

The FO failed to save us from getting eaten alive by teams with real athletes, tbh.

We can just barely stay in front on Devin Harris...

[td4mvp2k]

overpaid or not tiago n manu werent goin nowhere tbh

[024]

Can't run your victory lap until the Spurs get the :lobt2:

[Raven]

Didn't the Spurs have the possibility of picking up Batum a couple years ago but chose to resign Bonner and Neal?

no

[cjw]

Didn't the Spurs have the possibility of picking up Batum a couple years ago but chose to resign Bonner and Neal?

Batum got an offer sheet averaging $11.5mm a year which Portland matched. So unless one of the Big Three were gone and they had offered considerably more for Batum, answer is no.

[Cry Havoc]

Pumping up your chest because your are about to beat the weakest team in the west.

A 49 win team in the most loaded conference in NBA history. It's a fucking playoff win. You celebrate those. FFS. You're the type of fan that would be given a Porsche for free and bitch endlessly about how much better a Ferrari is.

[Cry Havoc]

Still wondering which of you geniuses can answer a simple question.

[objective]

Who would you have signed? Since you're such a genius when it comes to free agency and all.

Funny, I don't see any disagreement on your post.

Want to know who? Go back to the offseason threads where I was blasting Ayres and Marco signings and find out. And add demarre Carroll. This isn't hindsight for Marco and Ayres, when others were talking up Ayres and calling him a better malik rose, I was correctly punting out how he was terrible and an awful user of the MLE. When Marco's name was being connected to the spurs, I was one of those calling him a lateral move as a slightly taller Neal.

[Cry Havoc]

Funny, I don't see any disagreement on your post.

You don't? How about this: I think people who are criticizing the best Front Office in the NBA by calling them poor are the worst kind of self-serving, fairweather fan who runs the minute we get down by 5 points in a playoff game. I throw them in with the same people who think Pop is a shitty coach (48 page thread here on that btw), and were calling for Manu to be traded 3-4 years ago. This "what have you done for me lately" attitude that's so prevalent on SpursTalk is the height of absurdity, given that there are ~28 other teams in the NBA that would KILL to have our FO OR our coaching staff. But nope, they're terrible, because YOU know more about basketball than 90% of the execs in the NBA. Give me a break. You're the epitome of a Monday Morning Quarterback who thinks they're a "student of the game", hyper-analyzing every single thing the Spurs do, not understanding that signing LeBron in the offseason wasn't a possibility.


When Marco's name was being connected to the spurs, I was one of those calling him a lateral move as a slightly taller Neal.

Yeah. Clearly you know a lot about basketball. :lmao If we didn't have Marco, we'd be playing Memphis right now. Would you enjoy that prospect given how they've been with OKC? No? Ok then. We have had the best bench in the NBA to this point, but nevermind that. That's why you're making all that dough recruiting for NBA teams, right chief?


I'm not too sad, the spurs have won 4 titles, so I have my memories. A shame they wasted the mle and summer with trash, and it socks to see Ayres getting minutes, but all good things come to an end.

Oh look, you're a cliffjumping scrub. No surprise here. Why the fuck are you even watching games since you're so sure we're going to lose to Dallas?

[Johnny RIngo]

Still don't understand why it was necessary to give Marco MLE money. Negative impact loser that's played on lottery teams his whole career. Should have offered him the LLE. If he declined, tell him to fuck off and find another team. Ayres getting a portion of the MLE is even more worse. His NBA career is non-existant - tore his ACL and barely played any games in Indiana. Yet the Spurs gift him with a 3 mil contract. He should be making nothing more than the minimum. Hasn't done anything in the NBA to warrant more than that.

[Johnny RIngo]

Yeah. Clearly you know a lot about basketball. :lmao If we didn't have Marco, we'd be playing Memphis right now. Would you enjoy that prospect given how they've been with OKC? No? Ok then. We have had the best bench in the NBA to this point, but nevermind that. That's why you're making all that dough recruiting for NBA teams, right chief?

Where did you come to that conclusion?

[pgardn]

Marco was a solid signing.

This was our best game this series.
Some great interior passing.

[Johnny RIngo]

Marco was a solid signing.

Not really. Another low IQ, chucker at the SG position. Not necessary. Not when there were better options available.

[pgardn]

Still don't understand why it was necessary to give Marco MLE money. Negative impact loser that's played on lottery teams his whole career. Should have offered him the LLE. If he declined, tell him to fuck off and find another team. Ayres getting a portion of the MLE is even more worse. His NBA career is non-existant - tore his ACL and barely played any games in Indiana. Yet the Spurs gift him with a 3 mil contract. He should be making nothing more than the minimum. Hasn't done anything in the NBA to warrant more than that.

You obviously missed Marco last year in Chicago when their guards went bad in the playoffs.
Marco handled that team very well.

[objective]

They aren't poor or the worst, but they did make poor decisions with Marco and Ayres. If you can't see that, then that's on you. BUT the point STILL stands and you STILL aren't disagreeing, only being disagreeable.

You can go ahead and go back through my post history and stack it to yours, no worries from me.

And it's sad to see the 'Monday morning qb' crack when nothing had been in hindsight. NOTHING. What is this 'lebron' thing? I've NEVER criticized the spurs for not signing Lebron, NEVER. When people make up nonsense and attribute it falsely, that's sad. And this 'pop is a shitty coach' fantasy involving me .... More sadness. Everytime I've criticized pop it was with damn good reason (splitter's rookie year comes foremost to mind).

Keep on making up things to falsely blame on me if you want, that's on you

Have I been wrong in the past? Plenty. But I've been right more. And I've been right in this thread.

[Johnny RIngo]

You obviously missed Marco last year in Chicago when their guards went bad in the playoffs.
Marco handled that team very well.

No, I didn't. Marco didn't play defense back then either. If we wanted a shitty, low IQ guard that didn't play D on our roster we should have just resigned Neal and used the entire MLE on a GOOD impactful player. Marco doesn't impact games...at all.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Marco doesn't impact games...at all.

Not very accurate. Just because he isn't doesn't mean he can't.

[pgardn]

No, I didn't. Marco didn't play defense back then either. If we wanted a shitty, low IQ guard that didn't play D on our roster we should have just resigned Neal and used the entire MLE on a GOOD impactful player. Marco doesn't impact games...at all.

BS

He has been nonexistent so far.
In the regular season he had a considerable impact.
If the playoffs continue with him looking lost I will agree.

But not now. I want him as a weapon for what will hopefully another series.

[ChumpDumper]

lol spurfan is pathetic

[Johnny RIngo]

Not very accurate. Just because he isn't doesn't mean he can't.

Marco had decent box score numbers this year but his impact stats were pretty bad(mostly on defense).

[pgardn]

No, I didn't. Marco didn't play defense back then either. If we wanted a shitty, low IQ guard that didn't play D on our roster we should have just resigned Neal and used the entire MLE on a GOOD impactful player. Marco doesn't impact games...at all.
You said he played on lottery teams.

He was needed badly in Chicago. You did not watch him. If you did, you don't have a clue.

[Johnny RIngo]

You said he played on lottery teams.

He was needed badly in Chicago. You did not watch him. If you did, you don't have a clue.

:lol Eastern Conference. Yeah, Marco was so impactful that Thib didn't even want him back and ended up replacing him with a better player in Dunleavy

[T Park]

lol spurfan is pathetic

It gets worse and worse...

[Johnny RIngo]

It gets worse and worse...


Ayers is a better bigger Malik Rose. Been saying this for a while. Really really excited about this kid. When Diaw goes back to soft offensively, I'd play him down the stretch in smaller situations. Great rebounder.

[ElNono]

Unlike Ayres whose job was to be a regular season minute burner (and you could say he sucked at everything, but burn minutes he did, and the Spurs did win 62 games), Marco is expected to do more.

Debates about his defense should go nowhere quick, since that's not the reason he's here (much like any debate about Neal's defense in his tenure as a Spur should die a quick death), but his offense through making open shots, cuts and making sound decisions with the ball is what was expected of him. He did some of that in the regular season for us, and he's done a lot of that both in New Orleans and Chicago, including the playoffs. Which is why it's so puzzling to see him struggle so mightily doing his bread and butter stuff. It's not his first rodeo on a semi-important role. You could even argue he had more responsibilities in NO and CHI.

But there's no way to spin it. He has sucked mightily this series, and right now, he looks like a terrible pickup. The only hope is that we move on from this series, and perhaps against a more lax defense that doesn't grab as much off the ball and pays less attention to shooters, he can regain his regular season form. We don't need a whole lot from him. If he can give us the 10ppg he averaged during the RS on 20 some minutes, that will be great.

[Malik Hairston]

Belinelli has always been a low-impact player, tbh.. His defensive on/off metrics are as bad as any wing player in the NBA over the past 5 seasons..

He's fine as a luxury player used in specific scenarios that require shooting/scoring, but when Pop is using him at the expense of Danny Green's defense(Green averaged 32 MPG in last year's playoffs), it hurts the team..

You can make the argument that his playmaking ability was the reason the Spurs signed him, in an attempt to relieve Manu of all the responsibility, but the Spurs have barely used Belinelli as a creator this season, so I'm not sure if I buy that..

[RD2191]

Why are we shitting on Marco? Mills has been just as bad.

[T Park]

Unlike Ayres whose job was to be a regular season minute burner (and you could say he sucked at everything, but burn minutes he did, and the Spurs did win 62 games), Marco is expected to do more.

Debates about his defense should go nowhere quick, since that's not the reason he's here (much like any debate about Neal's defense in his tenure as a Spur should die a quick death), but his offense through making open shots, cuts and making sound decisions with the ball is what was expected of him. He did some of that in the regular season for us, and he's done a lot of that both in New Orleans and Chicago, including the playoffs. Which is why it's so puzzling to see him struggle so mightily doing his bread and butter stuff. It's not his first rodeo on a semi-important role. You could even argue he had more responsibilities in NO and CHI.

But there's no way to spin it. He has sucked mightily this series, and right now, he looks like a terrible pickup. The only hope is that we move on from this series, and perhaps against a more lax defense that doesn't grab as much off the ball and pays less attention to shooters, he can regain his regular season form. We don't need a whole lot from him. If he can give us the 10ppg he averaged during the RS on 20 some minutes, that will be great.


They aren't allowing him an open shot. I seriously don't understand why this is hard for you people to understand this....

[Cry Havoc]

They aren't poor or the worst, but they did make poor decisions with Marco and Ayres. If you can't see that, then that's on you. BUT the point STILL stands and you STILL aren't disagreeing, only being disagreeable.

You can go ahead and go back through my post history and stack it to yours, no worries from me.

And it's sad to see the 'Monday morning qb' crack when nothing had been in hindsight. NOTHING. What is this 'lebron' thing? I've NEVER criticized the spurs for not signing Lebron, NEVER. When people make up nonsense and attribute it falsely, that's sad. And this 'pop is a shitty coach' fantasy involving me .... More sadness. Everytime I've criticized pop it was with damn good reason (splitter's rookie year comes foremost to mind).

Keep on making up things to falsely blame on me if you want, that's on you

Have I been wrong in the past? Plenty. But I've been right more. And I've been right in this thread.

You bailed on our team after 3 games in a first round series. You're a shit fan and you know nothing about the game of basketball. No one who knows a fucking thing about this sport would declare a 2-1 series over unless there were a couple of severe blowouts or a serious injury.

You. Don't. Know. Shit. About. This. Game. There isn't a way to be MORE WRONG about basketball than to make such a shitty call like that, and then come back and try to talk like you can analyse individual players and make better personnel decisions than the best front office in this league.

"I've been right more." Says the fairweather fan who bails when his team has an off game. Your fandom isn't worth the words to type this discussion.

[letmk]

Why are we shitting on Marco? Mills has been just as bad.

Mills' offense is as bad, but he does bring energy to the court, both on defense and intangibles. We fans, and I believe teammates as well, will be affected by his never-give up playing. While Marco's body language is just baaaaddd.

[lurker23]

Cry Havoc is the winner of this thread, so far. If you want to jump off a cliff after the Spurs just won a crucial game 5 in a playoff series, go have fun being a fan of another NBA team. In general, you'll find it doesn't end well.

After Marco Belinelli killed it most of the regular season, you'd think he would have earned at least a little bit of a leash from fans. Admittedly, he hasn't been very good this series, but assuming the Spurs can finish off the Mavs, I'll be looking for all the Beli haters when he's raining threes later in the playoffs.

[objective]

Lol

[ElNono]

They aren't allowing him an open shot. I seriously don't understand why this is hard for you people to understand this....

He had some today and he missed them, wide open... I watched the same game you did...

That said, your point is well taken, and that's why I said I hope we move on and his game can come back to him against a different defense.

I'm rooting for him to do well, because he's important to this team success, but we're 5 games into this, and so far he's been extremely underwhelming. He posted the best scoring number of his career in the RS, and right now he's posting the very worst playoffs numbers of his career. Hopefully he can turn things around.

[SpurPadre]

Cry Havoc is the winner of this thread, so far. If you want to jump off a cliff after the Spurs just won a crucial game 5 in a playoff series, go have fun being a fan of another NBA team. In general, you'll find it doesn't end well.

After Marco Belinelli killed it most of the regular season, you'd think he would have earned at least a little bit of a leash from fans. Admittedly, he hasn't been very good this series, but assuming the Spurs can finish off the Mavs, I'll be looking for all the Beli haters when he's raining threes later in the playoffs.

And I'll be looking for Beli to expose his balls in the playoffs for all to see again.

[Mugen]

:lol I guarantee the majority of Beli's shots have been open looks. I'm fine if he's not knocking them down at a crazy clip but not when he's getting abused by whoever he's guarding and getting Danny's minutes tbh.

[pgardn]

:lol Eastern Conference. Yeah, Marco was so impactful that Thib didn't even want him back and ended up replacing him with a better player in Dunleavy

He is not the only guard that left.

[Cry Havoc]

Where did you come to that conclusion?

Do you not recall the 5-10 games he led us in scoring and basically won the game for us? Most notably against Golden State when we weren't running our starters.

[Cry Havoc]

Cry Havoc is the winner of this thread, so far. If you want to jump off a cliff after the Spurs just won a crucial game 5 in a playoff series, go have fun being a fan of another NBA team. In general, you'll find it doesn't end well.

After Marco Belinelli killed it most of the regular season, you'd think he would have earned at least a little bit of a leash from fans. Admittedly, he hasn't been very good this series, but assuming the Spurs can finish off the Mavs, I'll be looking for all the Beli haters when he's raining threes later in the playoffs.

:tu

[Mugen]

Yeah. Clearly you know a lot about basketball. :lmao If we didn't have Marco, we'd be playing Memphis right now. Would you enjoy that prospect given how they've been with OKC? No? Ok then. We have had the best bench in the NBA to this point, but nevermind that. That's why you're making all that dough recruiting for NBA teams, right chief?


As a side note, I'd much rather be playing Memphis right now tbh.

[Johnny RIngo]

Do you not recall the 5-10 games he led us in scoring and basically won the game for us? Most notably against Golden State when we weren't running our starters.

Eh, Neal had those type of games too. Mason as well. Doesn't make either of them good players though. Not to mention, Marco cost us a few games with his horrible defense. IIRC, Shumpert had a season high against Marco during that stint when Danny was injured.

[Malik Hairston]

I don't have a problem with Belinelli's offense, tonight was the first game in the series where he got multiple open looks IIRC..

My problem is that Danny Green went from playing 32 MPG in last year's playoffs to 18 this year..

The Spurs of the past 2 years are a defensive-oriented team, Green is a huge part of the defensive greatness..Belinelli's defensive on/off is by far the worst of any Spurs player in this series, yet he continues to split minutes with Green in a series where opposing wings have killed the Spurs..

Marco is one of the most useless players in the league when he isn't scoring..he doesn't rebound at a high rate, he doesn't create pressure on defense, he constantly loses his man and he doesn't have the athleticism to contest shots..

[objective]

Marco can hit threes, so did Neal. Gloating when he does exactly what the guy he replaced did who could have been kept misses the point.

Everything from my post from after the loss remains. The spurs losing a series doesn't make me leave the forum after posting about how much things hurt. And I don't want to see Ayres (had pop kept playing him, this series would be over in a bad way).

If anyone wants to ignore me because of that, good for you. Better than pretending I was mad that the spurs didn't sign lebron

[ElNono]

I don't have a problem with Belinelli's offense, tonight was the first game in the series where he got multiple open looks IIRC..

My problem is that Danny Green went from playing 32 MPG in last year's playoffs to 18 this year..

The Spurs of the past 2 years are a defensive-oriented team, Green is a huge part of the defensive greatness..Belinelli's defensive on/off is by far the worst of any Spurs player in this series, yet he continues to split minutes with Green in a series where opposing wings have killed the Spurs..

Marco is one of the most useless players in the league when he isn't scoring..he doesn't rebound at a high rate, he doesn't create pressure on defense, he constantly loses his man and he doesn't have the athleticism to contest shots..

I don't have a problem with this view. I think Pop for some reason thinks he needs more offense instead of defense in this series due to the Mavs switching everything and so playing Beli (based on what he did in the RS) doesn't look like the wrong choice.

But it isn't working, and we're far too deep in this series right now to attribute it to just a bad game or two. That's why I wouldn't mind Danny getting his minutes in the 2nd half if Marco still can figure things out.

[Chinook]

There's plenty of room to question the decisions the FO made last off-season. The team had more flexibility to add new players than it had in a long time, and instead of using it on one or two firm rotation players, they signed replacements for Neal and Blair. Those replacements didn't even turn out to be markedly better. Beli was arguably a negative signing, as his presence seems to constantly erode Pop's trust in Green. We saw it this season in that interlude in which Beli started and the defense collapsed. We're seeing it now that Pop keeps splitting the minutes that should go to Green. Neal may have sucked as a backup PG, but at least him getting minutes there would have allowed for Green and Leonard to play as much as they need to. I don't actually think Ayres was all that bad of a signing. The team had no other options after they wasted the majority of the MLE on Beli. I think Jeff has a chance to be a good rotation player next year.

Where the team really messed up is in mismanaging their other assets. They let Neal and Blair walk for nothing when they probably could have gotten something for them (or just kept Neal and preserved the MLE). They failed to trade Bonner last off-season and Jack the season before. They used their pick on a draft-and-stash who won't come over until Duncan retires. I got the impression that the FO was caught between two conflicting strategies for the off-season: using cap space or using exceptions. They either should have gone for cap space and brought in an impact player (not my first choice, but it was a lot of people's preference) or traded Bonner and maybe their first for a rotation big and used the MLE to bring over a wing while keeping Neal and Mills to put next to Ginobili. They ended up doing neither, which led to them botching the AK pursuit and only bringing over fringe playoff players.

That's not to say the FO is not a good one. It's a great one. But they did little to make the roster better this year. When you look at what they could have done, that's a damned shame.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

It gets worse and worse...just like your basketball takes

[Chinook]

I don't have a problem with this view. I think Pop for some reason thinks he needs more offense instead of defense in this series due to the Mavs switching everything and so playing Beli (based on what he did in the RS) doesn't look like the wrong choice.

But it isn't working, and we're far too deep in this series right now to attribute it to just a bad game or two. That's why I wouldn't mind Danny getting his minutes in the 2nd half if Marco still can figure things out.

I have no idea why Pop underestimates Green. It's almost disturbing to see the gap between what the stats say about Danny's impact and how Pop seems to view his impact. I thought Pop understood that Green needed to play more when he decided to bring Green back instead of inserting Beli in the third. But then he ran with Mills as the two down the stretch, which made little sense even if it worked out. It was one thing to bench Green in previous games, but he played way too well tonight for Pop to only play him half of what the other starters played.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Regardless if we lose or win this game, where is Great Yacht, Skull and all the others hating on Splitter and Manu being re-signed? Our front office has done it again...

Seriously? We haven't won shit. go ahead and post this thread if we win the title in June.

[ElNono]

I have no idea why Pop underestimates Green. It's almost disturbing to see the gap between what the stats say about Danny's impact and how Pop seems to view his impact. I thought Pop understood that Green needed to play more when he decided to bring Green back instead of inserting Beli in the third. But then he ran with Mills as the two down the stretch, which made little sense even if it worked out. It was one thing to bench Green in previous games, but he played way too well tonight for Pop to only play him half of what the other starters played.

Only Pop knows what goes through his mind.

What I did notice and pointed out after the 1st game, is that it's obvious Rick selected Danny to be the guy they use to hide a bad defensive player on (mostly Calderon when it's starters vs starters). Danny generally won't cut or drive, he's basically spacing the floor on offense, so he doesn't really enter the switching defense they play and they can comfortably put a guy there. It's speculation from my part, but if you're looking for a reason specifically in this series, that might be one.

[Chinook]

Only Pop knows what goes through his mind.

What I did notice and pointed out after the 1st game, is that it's obvious Rick selected Danny to be the guy they use to hide a bad defensive player on (mostly Calderon when it's starters vs starters). Danny generally won't cut or drive, he's basically spacing the floor on offense, so he doesn't really enter the switching defense they play and they can comfortably put a guy there. It's speculation from my part, but if you're looking for a reason specifically in this series, that might be one.

In my opinion, Pop should be fine with letting Green draw his man and the rest of the players to play 4-on-4. If he wants Green to score more, he needs to call plays for him like he did in last year's WCSF when the Warriors were hiding Curry on him. I know Beli is supposed to be a more dynamic offensive player, and thusly a harder guard than Green is, but Danny can put a ton of pressure on a defense when the team needs him to. Pop just has to decide that he wants to make Green an explicit part of the offense. If Pop wants him to be a mere spot-up shooter, he's not going to do much in this series offensively. But hell, it's not like Beli's expanded offensive repertoire has manifested itself much this whole season.

[Calispursfan11]

tbh, tbh.

[sexinthatsx]

As a side note, I'd much rather be playing Memphis right now tbh.

I'd still prefer Dallas. Memphis is running a train on OKC right now... their offense is really streaky, but they have some clutch defense, beating OKC in 3 overtime games. The OT wins will help Memphis in the second round against the Clippers as well.

[lurker23]

I can certainly sympathize with the argument that Belinelli taking too many minutes away from Green is a bad thing. When both players are on, Green is superior because of his defensive presence. However, neither of them has been particularly good against the Mavs in this series, which I think is why Pop has been trying to push any and every button he can find to try and get the offense back on track. It's kind of what you have to do when the Mavs of all teams are taking you out of your rhythm on that end of the court.

Green was clearly the superior player tonight, and I think that will push Pop to give him twice the minutes of Beli in game 6, and let Marco try to work back into a better role in (fingers crossed) a potential second round series.

[Robz4000]

Errors was a terrible signing tbh, still have hope for Beli tho. IMO, the FO did go after a back-up 3/another impact player but struck out on all their targets. Having to play Manu as the 3 off the bench actually isn't terrible either; at his age it's the position he's best built to defend.

[Mugen]

I'd still prefer Dallas. Memphis is running a train on OKC right now... their offense is really streaky, but they have some clutch defense, beating OKC in 3 overtime games. The OT wins will help Memphis in the second round against the Clippers as well.

Memphis is being greatly aided by OKC's reliance on isoball. The Grizzlies can load up their defense and sell out on Durant/Westbrook while ignoring Perk/Thabo/etc. They wouldn't be able to do that with the Spurs. Allen would not be nearly as effective as he is right now if he played the Spurs, a team that doesn't rely on free throws to be elite offensively. All the success that OKC is having on defense, the Spurs could easily replicate as well...

Plus, they just can't score enough to hang with San Antonio tbh. The Spurs would end up getting better shots than the Grizzlies (something not happening with OKC right now) and have better shooters taking them over the course of the series as we saw in last year's WCF.

Carlisle being the 2nd best coach in the league and elite offensively should be enough to make the Mavs a tougher opponent IMO.

[sexinthatsx]

Memphis is being greatly aided by OKC's reliance on isoball. The Grizzlies can load up their defense and sell out on Durant/Westbrook while ignoring Perk/Thabo/etc. They wouldn't be able to do that with the Spurs. Allen would not be nearly as effective as he is right now if he played the Spurs, a team that doesn't rely on free throws to be elite offensively. All the success that OKC is having on defense, the Spurs could easily replicate as well...

Plus, they just can't score enough to hang with San Antonio tbh. The Spurs would end up getting better shots than the Grizzlies (something not happening with OKC right now) and have better shooters taking them over the course of the series as we saw in last year's WCF.

Carlisle being the 2nd best coach in the league and elite offensively should be enough to make the Mavs a tougher opponent IMO.

Part of the reason why I saw Dallas instead of Memphis is because the Grizzlies play more physical than Mavs. Everybody on the Mavs team is pretty much there to hit jump shots. Heck, Samuel Dalembert sucks at scoring, he's only there to secure rebounds for the team. This would eventually wear the Spurs down if it goes to 6 or 7 games. It's a close call though, since Spurs have been scarred in the past by Mavs (at least more so than the Grizzlies)

[Mugen]

I'd take a physical 5 game series with Memphis over a potential 7 game series with Dirk & Co. tbh.

[lowdown]

Man, I don't feel like reading all the griping after watching a great win but I did read some of Cry Havoc's post and I agree with his main take. Every goddamn one of you that thinks they are so fucking smart that they would do this or that differently then the front office as you sit in your chair typing your genius words should remember one thing: this awesome experience that you are witnessing as a Spurs fan in the 2000s is not going to last forever. Eventually this dynasty will end - fuck Phil Jackson - and then you we'll really be able to find your true happiness. You can be 2nd-guessing some GM and/or coach as the Silver & Black aspire to be mediocre as they accumulate ping-pong balls. They offer Taco Cabana coupons to free agents. Give NBA superstars the chance to be King Antonio if they would just sign on the dotted line. Then when you realize that these games you've been accustomed to where all of us fans shit in our pants fearing Ginobili will turn over the ball, Splitter will miss the basket as he attempts to dunk, or Parker dribbles and dribbles and dribble as the shot clock winds down and then they lose at the end is way better then what's going to happen next when there's no Popovich/Buford. Spurs fans think championships are like those King Antonio gold chips. Wake up, those gold coins are fake! This Spurs era is for real. I was yelling at the TV like all of you with that shitty pick-n-roll defense they were playing early in the series but criticizing the front office right now 'cause Belinelli can't play D is ridiculous. Don't let that Ray Allen shot make you think that Duncan won't get a ring this year until the season is truly over. Peace...

[dg7md]

Beli is less of a fluke shooter than Green is and I think he'll hit some big shots late into the playoffs.

[ElNono]

In my opinion, Pop should be fine with letting Green draw his man and the rest of the players to play 4-on-4. If he wants Green to score more, he needs to call plays for him like he did in last year's WCSF when the Warriors were hiding Curry on him. I know Beli is supposed to be a more dynamic offensive player, and thusly a harder guard than Green is, but Danny can put a ton of pressure on a defense when the team needs him to. Pop just has to decide that he wants to make Green an explicit part of the offense. If Pop wants him to be a mere spot-up shooter, he's not going to do much in this series offensively. But hell, it's not like Beli's expanded offensive repertoire has manifested itself much this whole season.

The problem with going 4-4 is that Calderon rests. And he's the guy that makes Tony work on the other end. And Danny won't be part of the offense when you have options like TD/TP/Kawhi and even Thiago out there. Especially if we're not even going to his forté, the 3 point shot. Carlisle would love if we run our offense by making Danny put the ball on the floor with all the other options out there. I'm not saying Marco has been any better, but I think the idea is, as you said, to pretend that Marco is a much more dynamic player and he requires more defensive attention. In theory anyways, since it hasn't worked (yet).

[said7]

Man, I don't feel like reading all the griping after watching a great win but I did read some of Cry Havoc's post and I agree with his main take. Every goddamn one of you that thinks they are so fucking smart that they would do this or that differently then the front office as you sit in your chair typing your genius words should remember one thing: this awesome experience that you are witnessing as a Spurs fan in the 2000s is not going to last forever. Eventually this dynasty will end - fuck Phil Jackson - and then you we'll really be able to find your true happiness. You can be 2nd-guessing some GM and/or coach as the Silver & Black aspire to be mediocre as they accumulate ping-pong balls. They offer Taco Cabana coupons to free agents. Give NBA superstars the chance to be King Antonio if they would just sign on the dotted line. Then when you realize that these games you've been accustomed to where all of us fans shit in our pants fearing Ginobili will turn over the ball, Splitter will miss the basket as he attempts to dunk, or Parker dribbles and dribbles and dribble as the shot clock winds down and then they lose at the end is way better then what's going to happen next when there's no Popovich/Buford. Spurs fans think championships are like those King Antonio gold chips. Wake up, those gold coins are fake! This Spurs era is for real. I was yelling at the TV like all of you with that shitty pick-n-roll defense they were playing early in the series but criticizing the front office right now 'cause Belinelli can't play D is ridiculous. Don't let that Ray Allen shot make you think that Duncan won't get a ring this year until the season is truly over. Peace...

:flag: True nuff. Some people are just born complainers. Will be till they die.

[Capt Bringdown]

I guess a game 4 win against an 8th seed proves everything. No matter when the Human Turnover Machine is losing championships that we had in the bag.

[100%duncan]

Funny, I don't see any disagreement on your post.

Want to know who? Go back to the offseason threads where I was blasting Ayres and Marco signings and find out. And add demarre Carroll. This isn't hindsight for Marco and Ayres, when others were talking up Ayres and calling him a better malik rose, I was correctly punting out how he was terrible and an awful user of the MLE. When Marco's name was being connected to the spurs, I was one of those calling him a lateral move as a slightly taller Neal.

Wow you seem much wiser than the FO you highly criticize. Nice suggestion genius.

[100%duncan]

And oh only in ST, where fans expect role-players to average like superstars. "If you no carry us the whole 82 games you're baaaaad!" twats

[russellgoat]

Congratulations for winning with the help of the refs...

[xmas1997]

Congratulations for winning with the help of the refs...

You either have lost your mind, or you did not see the games because the Spurs NEVER EVER have help from the refs, they hate the Spurs and always have IMHO.
They almost always have to play against the other team and the refs too, and it has been this this way ever since they moved to San Antonio!

[Chinook]

Beli is less of a fluke shooter than Green is and I think he'll hit some big shots late into the playoffs.

Don't know where you got that idea, but Beli was streaky as hell this season. Pretty much, Marco started out hot and faded, while Danny started out cold warmed up as the season progressed.


The problem with going 4-4 is that Calderon rests. And he's the guy that makes Tony work on the other end. And Danny won't be part of the offense when you have options like TD/TP/Kawhi and even Thiago out there. Especially if we're not even going to his forté, the 3 point shot. Carlisle would love if we run our offense by making Danny put the ball on the floor with all the other options out there. I'm not saying Marco has been any better, but I think the idea is, as you said, to pretend that Marco is a much more dynamic player and he requires more defensive attention. In theory anyways, since it hasn't worked (yet).

I think the two-guard isn't supposed to do much by the design of the offense. I was talking to Hoop Czar a couple of weeks ago about that. I think the Spurs offense has "modes" as opposed to just plays or sets. In Parker Mode, the two-guard pretty much just spots up as to not interfere with Tony's drives. In Manu Mode, the wings can cut to the basket, since Ginobili shoots threes and doesn't need to drive to create like Parker does. Green mode is all about him getting screens and running the sideline PnR with Duncan or Splitter.

I don't see any two-guard besides Manu being more than a spot-up shooter when Parker is on the floor for this series, and Manu only really has success because the Spurs will play in a hybrid mode when they have two creators on the perimeter. Unless Pop wants to start calling screens to get open shots, he's just going to have to accept the spacing the Mavs are allowing as a trade-off for Calderon resting.

[vander]

Spurs FO still riding Duncan's coattails tbh

[ElNono]

I think the two-guard isn't supposed to do much by the design of the offense. I was talking to Hoop Czar a couple of weeks ago about that. I think the Spurs offense has "modes" as opposed to just plays or sets. In Parker Mode, the two-guard pretty much just spots up as to not interfere with Tony's drives. In Manu Mode, the wings can cut to the basket, since Ginobili shoots threes and doesn't need to drive to create like Parker does. Green mode is all about him getting screens and running the sideline PnR with Duncan or Splitter.

I don't see any two-guard besides Manu being more than a spot-up shooter when Parker is on the floor for this series, and Manu only really has success because the Spurs will play in a hybrid mode when they have two creators on the perimeter. Unless Pop wants to start calling screens to get open shots, he's just going to have to accept the spacing the Mavs are allowing as a trade-off for Calderon resting.

That's not entirely correct. The Spurs primary P&R with Tim/Tony borrows a lot of off the ball movement from motion offense, especially the cuts. There's too many combos to put in one post, and they change depending on wether it's a straight P&R (Tony does the entry pass) or a 4-down (Kawhi does the entry pass). Action really starts once Tim is posted up. There's different variations, but for example, if it's a straight P&R, you'll normally see the SF make a hard cut to the basket, screened by the other big, finishing his run on the opposite corner. The SG who was on that corner will rotate to take the SF spot on the 3 point line. Now wether the SG gets the open look depends on a lot of factors: Tim having the passing lane, the defense actually collapsing and leaving the SG open, etc. If it's a 4-down, then it's a bit different, because the SF will cut baseline and then you get a bunch of new options: either stops the run under the basket and gets it back, runs to the opposite corner (in this case, the SG makes the hard cut to the basket, and the SF rotates). There's a lot off the ball movement (or should be, it's not always the case), some decoy, some legit options. But eventually it boils down to what the defense gives you. If they're not giving you a lot, then option 1A and 1B are Tony/Tim... that's not going to change.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Belinelli has always been a low-impact player, tbh.. His defensive on/off metrics are as bad as any wing player in the NBA over the past 5 seasons..

He's fine as a luxury player used in specific scenarios that require shooting/scoring, but when Pop is using him at the expense of Danny Green's defense(Green averaged 32 MPG in last year's playoffs), it hurts the team..

You can make the argument that his playmaking ability was the reason the Spurs signed him, in an attempt to relieve Manu of all the responsibility, but the Spurs have barely used Belinelli as a creator this season, so I'm not sure if I buy that..

I love this take. Beli/ayers, neal/blair... I think the fo did ok. I def think there was an upgrade. Especially in beli.

The problem is the impact on rotation. Green seems to have been negatively affected. Id argue the same for baynes/nando.

Why in the world is Malcolm Thomas gone and austin daye here? Better or worse, why go through all that? Mle sf and open spot/min-deal big were the obvious plays. How does "the best fo in the league" miss that?

[Arcadian]

I still feel like Belinelli is going to prove crucial at some point. It's good to have a deadly shooter off the bench. Even though his shot's been off lately, I don't think that will continue forever.

[Chinook]

That's not entirely correct. The Spurs primary P&R with Tim/Tony borrows a lot of off the ball movement from motion offense, especially the cuts. There's too many combos to put in one post, and they change depending on wether it's a straight P&R (Tony does the entry pass) or a 4-down (Kawhi does the entry pass). Action really starts once Tim is posted up. There's different variations, but for example, if it's a straight P&R, you'll normally see the SF make a hard cut to the basket, screened by the other big, finishing his run on the opposite corner. The SG who was on that corner will rotate to take the SF spot on the 3 point line. Now wether the SG gets the open look depends on a lot of factors: Tim having the passing lane, the defense actually collapsing and leaving the SG open, etc. If it's a 4-down, then it's a bit different, because the SF will cut baseline and then you get a bunch of new options: either stops the run under the basket and gets it back, runs to the opposite corner (in this case, the SG makes the hard cut to the basket, and the SF rotates). There's a lot off the ball movement (or should be, it's not always the case), some decoy, some legit options. But eventually it boils down to what the defense gives you. If they're not giving you a lot, then option 1A and 1B are Tony/Tim... that's not going to change.

Lots of good insight there, Nono. I agree. I was oversimplifying things. I didn't mean to imply that the shooters don't move throughout the play. I knew that. In fact, Green is usually the one who directs the perimeter movement. I was more trying to say that it's not Green's passiveness that is keeping him from scoring. He's running the plays the way they're called, and Beli would do the same. I feel the Spurs aren't even getting to the options that include Green cutting or having to create on his own very often because the Mavs are struggling so badly to contain to initial penetration. Unless he gets plays called for him, Green is supposed to be a safety valve in the offense. Dallas hasn't defended well enough to open the valve yet.

[ElNono]

Lots of good insight there, Nono. I agree. I was oversimplifying things. I didn't mean to imply that the shooters don't move throughout the play. I knew that. In fact, Green is usually the one who directs the perimeter movement. I was more trying to say that it's not Green's passiveness that is keeping him from scoring. He's running the plays the way they're called, and Beli would do the same. I feel the Spurs aren't even getting to the options that include Green cutting or having to create on his own very often because the Mavs are struggling so badly to contain to initial penetration. Unless he gets plays called for him, Green is supposed to be a safety valve in the offense. Dallas hasn't defended well enough to open the valve yet.

There's two factors at play in this series: Dallas is grabbing and bumping quite a bit off the ball, and there's also the Spurs sometimes staying put and not moving. The former is good coaching by Carlisle, but the latter is on the players. Hopefully tomorrow we can just move on. I think Rick is a great coach, and I'm not sure other coaches are as good keeping their team disciplined enough to defend like that.

[baseline bum]

The front office watched the lakers beat a Robinson/Duncan team in back to back to back titles because they could not surround Robinson/Duncan with enough backcourt talent.

:cry But then they were boring when they put the best backcourt in the league next to Duncan and won 3 titles :cry

[NickiRasgo]

They should've sign Carroll instead of Ayers.

[Chinook]

There's two factors at play in this series: Dallas is grabbing and bumping quite a bit off the ball, and there's also the Spurs sometimes staying put and not moving. The former is good coaching by Carlisle, but the latter is on the players. Hopefully tomorrow we can just move on. I think Rick is a great coach, and I'm not sure other coaches are as good keeping their team disciplined enough to defend like that.

I think Portland would try Dallas' strategy, betting that Lillard and Aldridge could outscore Parker and Duncan (which would be a good bet). Houston would probably rely on Howard and Asik to lock down the paint, and even if they wanted to do what the Mavs are doing, they don't really have the intangibles to pull it off.

[Chinook]

They should've sign Carroll instead of Ayers.

They didn't have the money, and it wouldn't have made sense to sign two wings. It was almost irresponsible for them not to trade for a big, though.

[ElNono]

I think Portland would try Dallas' strategy, betting that Lillard and Aldridge could outscore Parker and Duncan (which would be a good bet). Houston would probably rely on Howard and Asik to lock down the paint, and even if they wanted to do what the Mavs are doing, they don't really have the intangibles to pull it off.

I don't think either team can pull it off as consistently as Dallas did... there's more at play than just "switch". The Spurs actually became free a bit the last couple of games, especially Patty and Boris. It takes a lot of discipline to lock down movement like that. Obviously, we need to get past Dallas first, but Portland and Houston would bring different challenges. I'm especially wary of Houston, because we've been doing a poor job covering the 3 point line.

[wildchild]

Never FO hater, but the same I said at the start of this season, I say again now, they didn't find a decent SF backup and didn't improve the roster.


Obviously, we need to get past Dallas first, but Portland and Houston would bring different challenges.

Agree about the different challenges and strategies. Dallas isn't a bad matchup as POR/HOU are. Lillard/Aldridge and Harden were nightmare matchups for the Spurs all regular season.

Against Dallas Pop has failed to prevail Spurs system over Carlise plans.
For example. Mavs had taken our shooter out and how Pop reacts? he limited Green's minutes, and that destroyed our perimeter defense.

Before game 5:
Opponent Field Goal Percentage: Regular season 44%, Playoffs 47.1%
Opponent 3PT Field Goal Percentage: RS 35.3%, PO 37.1%
Opponent Points: RS 97.6 points, PO 102.3 points
Defensive Rating: RS 100.1 points per 100 possessions, PO 108.2 points per 100 possessions

Also, I don't understand why Pop doesn't want -or realize how- involve Leonard the Spurs offense.
If the Spurs look for Leonard on the offensive end, that's the way to force defenders to focus on him, so the Mavs could put Marion on Leonard for big part of game -not only for 1 or 2 possessions like last game- and Calderon or Ellis should guard Parker, and that could be great for Parker and the Spurs.

These playoffs touches stats worried me because how a player to be aggressive if his coach never puts the ball in his hands.
After 5 games:
Tony 82,65
Tim 66,25
Manu 59,5
Boris 40
Leonard 38,70

[NickiRasgo]

They didn't have the money, and it wouldn't have made sense to sign two wings. It was almost irresponsible for them not to trade for a big, though.

I think they can if they amnesty Bonner. We don't have a legit SF other than Kawhi. We need a 3-and-D guy down the stretch outside of Kawhi/Green (Green is a 2) then they should've sign a cheap big man like Sims or anyone. Still wished that they should've have sign James Johnson too.

[ElNono]

Agree about the different challenges and strategies. Dallas isn't a bad matchup as POR/HOU are. Lillard/Aldridge and Harden were nightmare matchups for the Spurs all regular season.

If anything the Dallas series has shown (and the Portland/Houston, Memphis/OKC series too), is that you can pretty much scrap the regular season. It's a very different game out there.

Provided we move on, I would still prefer Portland over Houston, for a number of different reasons. But the Spurs need to be healthy, play better and smarter, no matter who's in front of them.

[Chinook]

I think they can if they amnesty Bonner. We don't have a legit SF other than Kawhi. We need a 3-and-D guy down the stretch outside of Kawhi/Green (Green is a 2) then they should've sign a cheap big man like Sims or anyone. Still wished that they should've have sign James Johnson too.

They couldn't amnestying Bonner wouldn't have meant anything after the Spurs gave Ginobili $7.5 Million.

I agree having a bigger fourth wing would have been nice, especially since last off-season was a buyer's market for threes. This off-season is going to be a player's market. But Green is slightly bigger than the averge SF, and he put up great numbers at the three this year. Even if the Spurs had signed a SF instead of Beli, they still should have gone with a three-wing rotation in the playoffs.

[ElNono]

They couldn't amnestying Bonner wouldn't have meant anything after the Spurs gave Ginobili $7.5 Million.

I agree having a bigger fourth wing would have been nice, especially since last off-season was a buyer's market for threes. This off-season is going to be a player's market. But Green is slightly bigger than the averge SF, and he put up great numbers at the three this year. Even if the Spurs had signed a SF instead of Beli, they still should have gone with a three-wing rotation in the playoffs.

I don't even know what to tell you about that. I think people would be bitching that player X is taking Kawhi's minutes.

Perhaps more puzzling than that, is the fact that Pop is playing a 22 year old only a little over 30 mins in the playoffs. It might have to do with the fact that Pop loves certain lineup combos and Kawhi might not be in one of them, but still, I think Kawhi should be there a lot of the time, even if he's still hesitant on offense here and there.

[Chinook]

I don't even know what to tell you about that. I think people would be bitching that player X is taking Kawhi's minutes.

Perhaps more puzzling than that, is the fact that Pop is playing a 22 year old only a little over 30 mins in the playoffs. It might have to do with the fact that Pop loves certain lineup combos and Kawhi might not be in one of them, but still, I think Kawhi should be there a lot of the time, even if he's still hesitant on offense here and there.

Yeah. Pop is still playing like it's the regular season. That's okay against an older team like Dallas, since they also run 10 deep. But it's suicide against Portland or Houston. Leonard and Green can both take major minutes. Mills and Beli should be fighting for a spot. We shouldn't see Mills at the two to close out games while Green and Leonard (and Splitter) are on the bench.

[Raven]

Do you not recall the 5-10 games he led us in scoring and basically won the game for us? Most notably against Golden State when we weren't running our starters.

never happened, NEVER.

[ElNono]

Yeah. Pop is still playing like it's the regular season. That's okay against an older team like Dallas, since they also run 10 deep. But it's suicide against Portland or Houston. Leonard and Green can both take major minutes. Mills and Beli should be fighting for a spot. We shouldn't see Mills at the two to close out games while Green and Leonard (and Splitter) are on the bench.

I think the rationale with the rotations have a lot to do with Tony not being in tip top shape, Dalembert giving Tim some fits, and the fact that Dirk can really score anytime he wants more or less... we just need more scoring. It's a lot easier to play defensive minded complementary players when you have one, two, three guys that can carry the load offensively. That's why it's maddening when they're missing layups and freebies. Every point is a premium in this series.

Could be wrong, but I also don't see a potential matchup with Houston or Portland playing out the same...not just the rotations, but how they defend us and the problems we would need to address if we face them.

[kjhip1]

One of the reports I was seeing was Dallas now being concerned with the front court and taking their chances with our outside shooting, which is why they got swept in the regular season. Call me crazy but I dont see Dallas being serious about letting us shoot even if our 3-ball has not been at its best this series.

Do you'll see RC playing Blair more minutes tonight, going off of what he saw in Game 4, or do you think he stays with Dalembert in the 4th? Additionally, I'd be fine with Dirk going nuts, as long as Carter/Harris/Ellis can be held in check.

[Chinook]

I think the rationale with the rotations have a lot to do with Tony not being in tip top shape, Dalembert giving Tim some fits, and the fact that Dirk can really score anytime he wants more or less... we just need more scoring. It's a lot easier to play defensive minded complementary players when you have one, two, three guys that can carry the load offensively. That's why it's maddening when they're missing layups and freebies. Every point is a premium in this series.

Could be wrong, but I also don't see a potential matchup with Houston or Portland playing out the same...not just the rotations, but how they defend us and the problems we would need to address if we face them.

Oh, I agree with you. But I think Pop's stuck between wanting the system to generate shots and wanting players create offense on their own. I think it's a mistake if he thinks Beli and especially Mills are good enough individual scorers to break through Dallas' defense. Leonard is probably the most capable of the non Parker or Ginobili perimeter players at getting his own shot, and he will almost always have a mismatch whenever he's on the floor. He's a much better offensive option than hoping Marco gets hot. Maybe if Pop plays Green on Ellis primarily, Leonard can focus more on offense and playing passing lanes on defense. Mills can score when he's part of the system, but he's probably behind Joseph when it comes to creating his own shot.

The answer to me seems to be to rely on the Big Three, Diaw and Splitter to continue scoring the bulk of the points, and focus on getting Leonard going as opposed to Beli or Mills. Since this is an elimination game for Dallas, if the Spurs can have a strong first quarter, it could force Carlisle to change his defense to allow more open shots from three. That's when the other smalls have to hit their shots. Before then, the other players need to focus on slowing down Dallas' offense, which they have the talent and discipline to do. But they can't do it if Pop keeps trying to play Beli and Mills just because he wants more offense.

I agree about a potential second-round matchup with Portland or Houston. I think Pop will be inclined to shorten his rotation as he did against Golden State last year. But if he plays Green and Leonard a combined 46mpg while rolling with Beli and Mills for 28-32mpg, I think it will spell disaster. Both Portland and Houston play their starters heavy minutes, and Pop should play his starters almost as many to counter, especially the Medium Three since they're all young enough to handle a larger workload. We all know that each series is it's own animal (with it's own cast of heros and goats that get determined through the course of that series) and that Pop is going to try to play as many players as he can get away with. But he can't be too stubborn about it.

[ElNono]

Oh, I agree with you. But I think Pop's stuck between wanting the system to generate shots and wanting players create offense on their own. I think it's a mistake if he thinks Beli and especially Mills are good enough individual scorers to break through Dallas' defense. Leonard is probably the most capable of the non Parker or Ginobili perimeter players at getting his own shot, and he will almost always have a mismatch whenever he's on the floor. He's a much better offensive option than hoping Marco gets hot. Maybe if Pop plays Green on Ellis primarily, Leonard can focus more on offense and playing passing lanes on defense. Mills can score when he's part of the system, but he's probably behind Joseph when it comes to creating his own shot.

I actually think what Pop wants from Beli and Marco is to have a couple of mid-range shooters when everything else fails. Mills is a guy that only needs a solid screen to get a shot off. Beli spaces the floor, but should somebody drop the ball at him at the last second, he's a guy that can make a mid-range jumper. It's really about adding a bit of versatility so we don't end up dying with either the contested 3 or the points in the paint. Obviously that theory only holds if they're making shots in a relative consistent basis, which so far they have not (and it's a big reason we struggle to score at times). Green, IMO, doesn't fit in that capacity. He has a sweet 3 point stroke, but I don't think he's confident enough in his mid-range. Kawhi is also coming along in that department, but I also think sometimes is a bit too hesitant.


The answer to me seems to be to rely on the Big Three, Diaw and Splitter to continue scoring the bulk of the points, and focus on getting Leonard going as opposed to Beli or Mills. Since this is an elimination game for Dallas, if the Spurs can have a strong first quarter, it could force Carlisle to change his defense to allow more open shots from three. That's when the other smalls have to hit their shots. Before then, the other players need to focus on slowing down Dallas' offense, which they have the talent and discipline to do. But they can't do it if Pop keeps trying to play Beli and Mills just because he wants more offense.

I'm a big fan of defense, and I wouldn't have a problem with Danny getting some, if not most of Beli's minutes, but on the other hand, I know Tony is in no shape to play 40+ mins and have his motor on all the time. Last season? sure. Not this season (so far). So Mills is going to have to play, and he's going to have to make his shots. Pop knows right now he can only get about 30 productive minutes from Tony, if that, so he's gonna have to play some other people and hope to make up some of the production. The Mavs might figure out by this game how to help better on Dirk in P&R situations, and then maybe Manu/Tiago becomes less productive. So now you have another production hole to fill. In a way, some of this decisions are made in-game and on a game to game basis. See what's working, go to it more, etc.


I agree about a potential second-round matchup with Portland or Houston. I think Pop will be inclined to shorten his rotation as he did against Golden State last year. But if he plays Green and Leonard a combined 46mpg while rolling with Beli and Mills for 28-32mpg, I think it will spell disaster. Both Portland and Houston play their starters heavy minutes, and Pop should play his starters almost as many to counter, especially the Medium Three since they're all young enough to handle a larger workload. We all know that each series is it's own animal (with it's own cast of heros and goats that get determined through the course of that series) and that Pop is going to try to play as many players as he can get away with. But he can't be too stubborn about it.

I wouldn't bet money on the shortened rotation if I were you... :lol
IMO, it will largely depend on these guys getting out of their slump or staying in it. Patty went from shooting 46% to 30%. Marco went from 48% to 36%. It's a huge drop in both cases to just pencil them as something the Dallas D is doing.
But different series give you different defense, different looks. Moving on from a series even if you sucked, can give you some extra motivation to fight through it.
I would suspect Pop will keep riding them, at least for a while. Pop is pretty staunch about riding the guys that brought you there.

[Baam]

Beli was signed to run the PnR in case Manu couldn't pull his own weight like last year... There's no reason to play him at this point... As a spot up shooter Danny Green is just too superior to ignore... There's no excuse for Pop pulling a Scott Brooks there...

[Chinook]

I actually think what Pop wants from Beli and Marco is to have a couple of mid-range shooters when everything else fails. Mills is a guy that only needs a solid screen to get a shot off. Beli spaces the floor, but should somebody drop the ball at him at the last second, he's a guy that can make a mid-range jumper. It's really about adding a bit of versatility so we don't end up dying with either the contested 3 or the points in the paint. Obviously that theory only holds if they're making shots in a relative consistent basis, which so far they have not (and it's a big reason we struggle to score at times). Green, IMO, doesn't fit in that capacity. He has a sweet 3 point stroke, but I don't think he's confident enough in his mid-range. Kawhi is also coming along in that department, but I also think sometimes is a bit too hesitant.

Well, Leonard and Joseph are both very good midrange shooters, each having a higher percentage on long twos than Beli and Mills. And both Cory and Kawhi would come with the added benefit of being able to get their own shots from midrange. If that's what the Spurs want from their role-players on offense, then it still doesn't make sense to play Mills and Beli. You add in defense, and it's no question.


I'm a big fan of defense, and I wouldn't have a problem with Danny getting some, if not most of Beli's minutes, but on the other hand, I know Tony is in no shape to play 40+ mins and have his motor on all the time. Last season? sure. Not this season (so far). So Mills is going to have to play, and he's going to have to make his shots. Pop knows right now he can only get about 30 productive minutes from Tony, if that, so he's gonna have to play some other people and hope to make up some of the production. The Mavs might figure out by this game how to help better on Dirk in P&R situations, and then maybe Manu/Tiago becomes less productive. So now you have another production hole to fill. In a way, some of this decisions are made in-game and on a game to game basis. See what's working, go to it more, etc.

But it's not like Mills gets his own shots very often. He was better at Beli at doing so during the season but I wouldn't exactly feel confident in him doing it in the big moments, especially after looking at the series so far. I think the idea that Pop should play Mills for offense is somewhat misguided, because he can just call more plays for Green and Leonard. If Pop doesn't think the team can play in Parker Mode for 40 minutes a game, them he should switch to other modes. Maybe he should reduce the amount of minutes Parker and Ginobili share on the court so that one of them is on the floor at all times. Maybe he should feed the ball to Diaw in the post more often and let Boris create. Maybe he should play Green Mode more often or make it a priority for Leonard to get the ball in the post. I just don't think that playing better offensive players is the key to improving the scoring.


I wouldn't bet money on the shortened rotation if I were you... :lol
IMO, it will largely depend on these guys getting out of their slump or staying in it. Patty went from shooting 46% to 30%. Marco went from 48% to 36%. It's a huge drop in both cases to just pencil them as something the Dallas D is doing.
But different series give you different defense, different looks. Moving on from a series even if you sucked, can give you some extra motivation to fight through it.
I would suspect Pop will keep riding them, at least for a while. Pop is pretty staunch about riding the guys that brought you there.

He's going to try to run out a 10-man rotation. He tried doing so in the Finals last year. But I doubt he ends up sticking with one if the bench struggles defensively. To me, that's the bigger concern. Offensively, everyone should have an easier time of things in a potential WCSF, as I agree with you that the other teams won't be as successful gameplanning against the Spurs as Carlisle is. But I think it could end up being even worse defensively if Pop insist on playing Mills 18 mpg in place of Tony, especially in a lineup that does not include either Green or Leonard for long stretches. Lillard, Williams and Batum, or Harden, Lin and Parsons would each play big minutes against the second unit, and if the Spurs bench is having a hard time guarding Devin Harris, Calderon and Carter, they could really struggle.

[Cry Havoc]

Corey hasn't earned any playoff minutes yet and I would have serious reservations about putting him the floor.

[ElNono]

Well, Leonard and Joseph are both very good midrange shooters, each having a higher percentage on long twos than Beli and Mills. And both Cory and Kawhi would come with the added benefit of being able to get their own shots from midrange. If that's what the Spurs want from their role-players on offense, then it still doesn't make sense to play Mills and Beli. You add in defense, and it's no question.

Personally, I don't consider either of them being more comfortable with their shot than Mills or Beli. And while it's possible that they post better numbers from mid-range, I don't think they command the attention that pure shooters do. If I look at it from the other side, I suspect Carlisle wouldn't lose sleep with Corey or Kawhi taking an open mid-range jumper. I personally wouldn't. Obviously both Mills and Beli shooting have been ass this series, but I'm talking more in broad terms, taking into account what their primary skill is.


But it's not like Mills gets his own shots very often. He was better at Beli at doing so during the season but I wouldn't exactly feel confident in him doing it in the big moments, especially after looking at the series so far. I think the idea that Pop should play Mills for offense is somewhat misguided, because he can just call more plays for Green and Leonard. If Pop doesn't think the team can play in Parker Mode for 40 minutes a game, them he should switch to other modes. Maybe he should reduce the amount of minutes Parker and Ginobili share on the court so that one of them is on the floor at all times. Maybe he should feed the ball to Diaw in the post more often and let Boris create. Maybe he should play Green Mode more often or make it a priority for Leonard to get the ball in the post. I just don't think that playing better offensive players is the key to improving the scoring.

Well, except for the first two games, I though Mills generally did ok on defense. Corey might do a better job, but if Devin Harris is jacking up 3s and making them at a rate way above his head, I don't expect that switching a warm body in front of him will change that. My main concern with Mills is that he's got the open shots and only more or less made them in Game 4. I didn't think the looks have been any worse or different than what he's always taken, and made. Beli is a different story, because to me, he's basically what Bonner, Neal or Mason used to be for us. His value is entirely on offense, and if he doesn't have it going, then I have no problem with a quicker hook, and Danny getting his minutes. What's annoying about Beli is that he's not even a streaky guy, his jumper was, until this series, relatively consistent. He just hasn't been able to knock them down.


He's going to try to run out a 10-man rotation. He tried doing so in the Finals last year. But I doubt he ends up sticking with one if the bench struggles defensively. To me, that's the bigger concern. Offensively, everyone should have an easier time of things in a potential WCSF, as I agree with you that the other teams won't be as successful gameplanning against the Spurs as Carlisle is. But I think it could end up being even worse defensively if Pop insist on playing Mills 18 mpg in place of Tony, especially in a lineup that does not include either Green or Leonard for long stretches. Lillard, Williams and Batum, or Harden, Lin and Parsons would each play big minutes against the second unit, and if the Spurs bench is having a hard time guarding Devin Harris, Calderon and Carter, they could really struggle.

The minute discrepancy is going to be there no matter who we play. Our best guys just can't play that long. We knew this when the season started, and that's why we rely on the bench the way we do. It has been a recurring theme for the last couple of seasons and at this point it is what it is. We depend a whole lot more on role-players than your average team. I get what you're saying about giving more time to the medium-3 than the bottom-3, but we'll see. I don't want to get too far ahead, let's cross this bridge and then we'll get to that.

[Chinook]

Personally, I don't consider either of them being more comfortable with their shot than Mills or Beli. And while it's possible that they post better numbers from mid-range, I don't think they command the attention that pure shooters do. If I look at it from the other side, I suspect Carlisle wouldn't lose sleep with Corey or Kawhi taking an open mid-range jumper. I personally wouldn't. Obviously both Mills and Beli shooting have been ass this series, but I'm talking more in broad terms, taking into account what their primary skill is.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's about Carlisle feeling good about leaving Kawhi and Cory open. It's about them making enough midrange shots that Carlisle can't leave them open as the game wears on. Right now, Green, Beli and Mills are the ones making Carlisle lose sleep. They do a fine job spacing the floor. What people are clamoring about now is them JUST spacing the floor and not getting a lot of good looks (Green more than the other two). When you're talking about one or two games here, I feel production is more important than reputation. So Cory and Leonard making their long twos seems more important to me than Beli and Mills just being threats to do so, especially when the shot clock is running down like you suggested a couple of posts ago.


Well, except for the first two games, I though Mills generally did ok on defense. Corey might do a better job, but if Devin Harris is jacking up 3s and making them at a rate way above his head, I don't expect that switching a warm body in front of him will change that. My main concern with Mills is that he's got the open shots and only more or less made them in Game 4. I didn't think the looks have been any worse or different than what he's always taken, and made. Beli is a different story, because to me, he's basically what Bonner, Neal or Mason used to be for us. His value is entirely on offense, and if he doesn't have it going, then I have no problem with a quicker hook, and Danny getting his minutes. What's annoying about Beli is that he's not even a streaky guy, his jumper was, until this series, relatively consistent. He just hasn't been able to knock them down.

I know it's not entirely fair to lump Mills and Beli together. Patty has brought everything else besides scoring (which I don't think it all that much, but whatever), while Beli has brought nothing when his shots haven't gone in. But I think you're underestimating the potential effect of upgrading the defense from the backup PG spot. It isn't just that Joseph would be able to defend Harris. He could switch onto Ellis so that Ginobili would have an easier assignment. He'd stand a better chance against Carter than Mills would. It would be harder to penetrate for Harris if he had a bigger guy with sounder defensive fundamentals on him. Adding a strong defender into a lineup makes everyone's jobs easier, hence why on/off numbers are considered so important for judging defensive players.


The minute discrepancy is going to be there no matter who we play. Our best guys just can't play that long. We knew this when the season started, and that's why we rely on the bench the way we do. It has been a recurring theme for the last couple of seasons and at this point it is what it is. We depend a whole lot more on role-players than your average team. I get what you're saying about giving more time to the medium-3 than the bottom-3, but we'll see. I don't want to get too far ahead, let's cross this bridge and then we'll get to that.

I agree that the Big Three won't and can't play the minutes that other team's stars can, but the Spurs have the best 4-7s in the league. The Medium Three can certainly play 100-110mpg in big games. The Big Three are going to play about 95-100mpg themselves. That should leave 30-45mpg for Diaw and the other rotation players. Considering Boris will get 24-30 of those to himself, there really isn't a need for two or three other players to get minutes outside of foul trouble, situational possessions and garbage time. It's not even a question of diminishing returns. The splits suggest Green and Leonard handle big minutes just fine. (Their efficiency goes up slightly and their advanced stats look good.) Pop would just be sitting them to sit them.

[ElNono]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's about Carlisle feeling good about leaving Kawhi and Cory open. It's about them making enough midrange shots that Carlisle can't leave them open as the game wears on. Right now, Green, Beli and Mills are the ones making Carlisle lose sleep. They do a fine job spacing the floor. What people are clamoring about now is them JUST spacing the floor and not getting a lot of good looks (Green more than the other two). When you're talking about one or two games here, I feel production is more important than reputation. So Cory and Leonard making their long twos seems more important to me than Beli and Mills just being threats to do so, especially when the shot clock is running down like you suggested a couple of posts ago.

Cojo to me is not an NBA caliber player right now. We probably disagree about this, and obviously, a debate about that does not really favor me looking at this series with the way Mills or Beli are playing, but nevertheless, while Mills might be an advantage here or there for Dallas, I feel like Cojo is an advantage all the time. Just my opinion, nothing empirical, just the impression after watching 82 games this season.
Kawhi is a different story, I think he's improved a lot, but he's still too hesitant at times, and that actually let's the defense settle. I hate it when he does that. It really kills whatever advantage he has. He also has a long ways to go finishing at the rim outside of a dunk. He's a kid, he's still learning the ropes, so I won't be harsh on him. Plus he normally brings some solid defense and rebounding.


I know it's not entirely fair to lump Mills and Beli together. Patty has brought everything else besides scoring (which I don't think it all that much, but whatever), while Beli has brought nothing when his shots haven't gone in. But I think you're underestimating the potential effect of upgrading the defense from the backup PG spot. It isn't just that Joseph would be able to defend Harris. He could switch onto Ellis so that Ginobili would have an easier assignment. He'd stand a better chance against Carter than Mills would. It would be harder to penetrate for Harris if he had a bigger guy with sounder defensive fundamentals on him. Adding a strong defender into a lineup makes everyone's jobs easier, hence why on/off numbers are considered so important for judging defensive players.

I'm gonna disagree. Monta is doing his most effective scoring off hand-offs and moving screens. Outside of Danny or Kawhi loosening up the ball from behind, it really doesn't matter who guards him. You basically need a guy that will put his hand up and don't buy on pump fakes whenever he decides to shoot. The rest has to come from the bigs protecting the penetration and paint. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel Cojo would actually be a detriment to our offense compared to a "serviceable" Mills.

[Chinook]

It's all about Cory's mentality. If he's in garbage-time mode, he can put a lot more pressure on a defense inside the arch than Mills can. He can finish as well as anyone outside of Parker and Ginobili, and he can finish with contract. His problem is more that he hasn't found a balance between being aggressive and being reckless. But that's not a huge deal in this series since we're talking about him playing the two-guard and thusly focusing on secondary penetration off Ginobili and Parker's initial drive. Defensively, Joseph's size helps him fight over screens as well as play more effect full-court pressure defense (with his length allowing him to disrupt more and his weight allowing him to absorb more contact). There's a reason why having strong fundamental defenders like Green, Leonard and Ginobili now that he's feeling good seems to contain Ellis better than putting Beli, Parker or Mills on him.

[ElNono]

It's all about Cory's mentality. If he's in garbage-time mode, he can put a lot more pressure on a defense inside the arch than Mills can. He can finish as well as anyone outside of Parker and Ginobili, and he can finish with contract. His problem is more that he hasn't found a balance between being aggressive and being reckless. But that's not a huge deal in this series since we're talking about him playing the two-guard and thusly focusing on secondary penetration off Ginobili and Parker's initial drive. Defensively, Joseph's size helps him fight over screens as well as play more effect full-court pressure defense (with his length allowing him to disrupt more and his weight allowing him to absorb more contact). There's a reason why having strong fundamental defenders like Green, Leonard and Ginobili now that he's feeling good seems to contain Ellis better than putting Beli, Parker or Mills on him.

I was trying to put my finger on what is it exactly that makes me feel the way I do about Corey's game after I posted that... and I guess the closest answer is that I don't trust him. As you said, sometimes he will make a great play, finish strong at the rim, be a pest on defense... and sometimes he'll just dribble aimlessly, ball looks like a hot potato in his hand. Or he'll miss a completely obvious rotation, and then go ahead and do it again the next possession. And it's not even he doesn't know he fucked up, you can see he does and it's hard on himself about it. I just don't see a level of professionalism in him yet that would would make me comfortable with him with a regular role in high stakes games like the playoffs.

[Chinook]

I was trying to put my finger on what is it exactly that makes me feel the way I do about Corey's game after I posted that... and I guess the closest answer is that I don't trust him. As you said, sometimes he will make a great play, finish strong at the rim, be a pest on defense... and sometimes he'll just dribble aimlessly, ball looks like a hot potato in his hand. Or he'll miss a completely obvious rotation, and then go ahead and do it again the next possession. And it's not even he doesn't know he fucked up, you can see he does and it's hard on himself about it. I just don't see a level of professionalism in him yet that would would make me comfortable with him with a regular role in high stakes games like the playoffs.

I'd agree Cory is erratic. But I think that's severely reduced when he's playing such a small role. He's scrappy, which is such an important quality that it's pretty much the only thing keeping Mills in the rotation with his shots not falling. The Spurs need that energy at random moments, and unlike Mills, Cory provides more solid upside. It's not steal or allowing a basket for him. He can just play solid on-ball defense without gambling. I know it's just my opinion, but I'd rather a player miss an assignment because they checked out than allowing a basket because they're physically limited. Both Mills and Joseph are sort of wildcards, but I feel better about Cory doing his job than I do about Mills doing his when he isn't scoring.

[Johnny RIngo]

:lol wasting the MLE on Marco/Ayres - two of the worst players in the NBA

[TheGreatYacht]

"Fuck Blair. He called out Pop on his shittyness" - you homers

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

"Fuck Blair. He called out Pop on his shittyness" - you homers

What do you think of Manu in the playoffs, brother?

[Chinook]

:lol wasting the MLE on Marco/Ayres - two of the worst players in the NBA

Insert some witty retort about sausages or sports cars here.

[TheGreatYacht]

What do you think of Manu in the playoffs, brother?

Been great. But had a lot to do with the L today smh

[dallasmaverickslose]

Been great. But had a lot to do with the L today smh

I mean, sure he did. But he's 37 years old. You can't expect him to play near flawless error free BB every game...

[TheGoldStandard]

The truth is the best players on your team, regardless of how legendary they are, should not be above 35 years old.

[TheGreatYacht]

The truth is the best players on your team, regardless of how legendary they are, should not be above 35 years old.

I remember when Pop said he's going to make plays for Kawhi this year :lmao Poor guy is expected to be an allstar with putbacks and one or two post-ups a game

[TheGoldStandard]

I remember when Pop said he's going to make plays for Kawhi this year :lmao Poor guy is expected to be an allstar with putbacks and one or two post-ups a game

To be fair, Kawhi is not the answer.. not fast enough to beat guys off the dribble and doesn't have a reliable go to move.. maybe in a few years.