Jeb: Changing Indian Nicknames Is "Ridiculous"

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

'It's ridiculous'
Gov. Bush criticizes NCAA ban on FSU's nickname
Posted: Tuesday August 9, 2005 8:54PM; Updated: Tuesday August 9, 2005 8:54PM

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- Gov. Jeb Bush criticized NCAA officials on Tuesday for their decision to penalize Florida State for using an American Indian nickname and symbols, saying they instead insulted the university and a proud Seminole Tribe of Florida.

The NCAA's finding that the school's Seminoles nickname is "hostile and offensive," instead of honoring American Indians has the opposite effect, the governor said, because the tribe supports the school's use of its name.

"I think it's offensive to native Americans ... the Seminole Indian tribe who support the traditions of FSU," Bush said on his way into a Cabinet meeting. "I think they insult those people by telling them, 'No, no, you're not smart enough to understand this. You should be feeling really horrible about this.' It's ridiculous."

Meanwhile, attorney Barry Richard, who successfully led the legal challenge on behalf of Republican George W. Bush in the 2000 presidential recount in Florida, has agreed to represent the school in its case against the NCAA, Florida State President T.K. Wetherell said Wednesday.

"We recognize this is an emotional issue in Florida, and in other parts of the country there are people who feel just as strongly being opposed," NCAA spokesman Bob Williams said Tuesday. "We believe this decision was made on sound ground legally though as I said before there is an appeal process in place."

The school's board of trustees are scheduled to meet Wednesday in emergency session to discuss elements of its formal response to the NCAA.

The university has until Feb. 1 to make a formal appeal to the NCAA executive committee.

Florida State, Illinois and Utah are among 18 schools with an American Indian nickname or logo that will be prohibited by the NCAA from displaying them in postseason events, starting in February.

The nicknames will not be allowed on team uniforms and mascots will not be allowed to perform at games, the NCAA announced Friday. Cheerleaders and band members will also be barred from using American Indians on their uniforms beginning in 2008.

The costuming and rigging of the school's symbols, Chief Osceola and the Appaloosa horse, Renegade, are designed by the Seminole Indian Tribe of Florida.

Bush said he fully agrees with Wetherell, who will sue the NCAA if their decision on the use of Seminoles is not rescinded.

"How politically correct can we get?" Bush asked. "The folks that make these decisions need to get out more often."

"If you have the Seminole Tribe and Gov. Bush on your side, how can you go wrong?" Florida State University Vice President Lee Hinkle said Wednesday.

Bush said the NCAA must have better things to do that sit around worrying about the nicknames adopted by its member institutions.

"You know what they ought to be worried about? The graduation rates of most college athletes," the second-term Florida governor said. "Maybe if they had some suggestions on that, that universities could apply and could implement, they could be doing a service to all of us."

Williams noted that student-athletes, on the average, graduate at a higher rate than the average student.

------

Halle-fucking-lulah!

[mookie2001]

I agree with a Bush.

[Spam]

That's why they call it Flori-duh.

[SWC Bonfire]

Don't you work at a newspaper, JB?

I hope you don't write the headlines! :lol

[SWC Bonfire]

I know I would be pissed if my high school changed their nickname... and fight song... and cheers/yells that have been around for 40-50 years.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Don't you work at a newspaper, JB?

I hope you don't write the headlines! :lol

Just caught it. And no, I don't write the headlines.

I leave that to the copy desk. :lol

[Extra Stout]

Yes, this is really stupid. There are circumstances where these kinds of names can be used offensively and inappropriately. Having a mascot dress up in a headdress and costume and do a ritual dance is as offensive as it would be if some team were called the Priests and came out and lampooned the Eucharist. Doing the tomahawk chop and chanting is as offensive as taking "The Old Rugged Cross" and lampooning it into a sports song. Having a grinning red hook-nosed Indian cartoon as a team logo is just as bad as that Mexican postage stamp with the caricatured black guy.

But Myles Brand has taken it too far with banning the national names like "Ute," "Illini," and "Seminole." By the same logic, aren't the state names of Utah, Illinois, North and South Dakota, and Indiana offensive? Let's just have Illinois go by "The University at Urbana-Champaign," OK?

And if he wants to be consistent in his self-righteous politically correct liberal asswipe nanny-state crusade, then of course Notre Dame cannot call themselves the "Fighting Irish" anymore. Try that one, asshole.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, calling it a "crusade" is religio-centric and offensive. Use "fucktarded so-called initiative" instead.

[GoldToe]

Just have the schools donate to the Native American Tribe they are "honoring" and it will be settled.

[SWC Bonfire]

Just have the schools donate to the Native American Tribe they are "honoring" and it will be settled.

To hell with that! My taxes are high enough, thank you very much.

Not like my old HS has any national exposure (or statewide, unfortunately :depressed ).

[Extra Stout]

Just have the schools donate to the Native American Tribe they are "honoring" and it will be settled.I know in the case of the University of Utah, the use of the "Ute" nickname is a partnership between the university and the tribe.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

This is awesome. I hope the NCAA takes it up the ass on this one, they deserve it.

Fuck PC, shut up and play ball assholes.

[Extra Stout]

To hell with that! My taxes are high enough, thank you very much.

Not like my old HS has any national exposure (or statewide, unfortunately :depressed ).Did your school ask permission? From what I understand, if someone approaches the tribe about using names, symbols, etc., the tribal leaders are flattered and will offer guidance about the proper use of their traditions.

But if someone just takes the names and symbols without asking them, that is very offensive and rude.

Example: the Zuni symbol that the state of New Mexico uses. Long ago, the white government just took it and started using it. The Pueblos were upset about this because the government would distort and misuse the symbol. But when Southwest Airlines approached the tribe about using the Zuni symbol on a plane, the Pueblos were pleased and consulted with the airline on the best way to do it.

Apparently, if you ask nicely and treat them with respect, those folks are happy to cooperate, which is really impressive, since our ancestors nearly exterminated them.

Now a lot of these schools have formed partnerships with the tribes to use their names and recreate their traditions respectfully. But Myles Brand has decided to play holier-than-thou and sever these relationships.

[cherylsteele]

But if someone just takes the names and symbols without asking them, that is very offensive and rude.




Do you know anyone with the last name of Brown who is upset at Cleveland?

Maybe dolphins are too keen on a NFL being named after them....no one ever asked them.

Maybe the should remane the Kansas City Chiefs...the Chefs.

One can take polictcal correctness too far....this is one such time.

It is only offensive if you let I be offensive. It is just a name. There is a time and place for being careful of the words or choose this goes too far.

[Jekka]

Having the little background on Seminoles that I do, I'd have to say that getting rid of the nickname is a good thing - even if the "tribe" thinks it's okay. I say this mainly because most members of the Seminole tribe are actually not registered and therefore cannot vote in tribal government decisions. They choose not to be enlisted in the tribe because their dislike and distrust for the American government is so great that they do not want to be affiliated with an tribal/native organization that was founded according to US guidelines. I have no doubt that some registered members of the tribe think the nickname is okay - due to the fact that it gives them a lot more exposure which in turn is good news for the tribe monetarily through casinos/crafts/etc - but I can say pretty confidently that they do not endorse the name because it honors the tribe.

[SWC Bonfire]

Did your school ask permission?


No. They have had the same mascot since at least the 1920's, possibly earlier.

[Extra Stout]

Do you know anyone with the last name of Brown who is upset at Cleveland?

Maybe dolphins are too keen on a NFL being named after them....no one ever asked them.

Maybe the should remane the Kansas City Chiefs...the Chefs.

One can take polictcal correctness too far....this is one such time.

It is only offensive if you let I be offensive. It is just a name. There is a time and place for being careful of the words or choose this goes too far.Clearly you haven't read my contributions to this thread and are just giving a knee-jerk reaction. You don't appear to have very deep or well-thought-out opinions.

And all your examples are silly. Paul Brown named the team after himself. Dolphins aren't people. Chiefs is as generic a name as "Generals."

I don't see how it is "politically correct" to go out of one's way to treat a group of people with respect. I thought old-fashioned values put a premium on that. How hard is it to go meet some people, shake their hand, and ask?

Myles Brand has gone and decided that it is always wrong to use Native American nicknames, no matter what kind of relationship the schools might have with the tribes themselves. He's on a holier-than-thou high horse. He's taken his personal views too far.

But there are instances where Native names and symbols are used offensively. Should the power of institutions like the NCAA be used to ban them? I don't think so. I don't like the use of power in that way. Social pressure and shame are good enough.

But that doesn't mean that Chief Wahoo represents the moral high ground.

Would it be OK if a school nicknamed itself the Mexicans and had a short, fat mascot with a big sombrero and fake mustache who carried around a bottle of tequila?

Would it be OK if a team nicknamed itself the Messiahs and had a mascot with long brown hair and a beard who wore a rough tunic and had nail wounds through his hands and feet?

Or how about a team called the Jews featuring a black-clad hooked-nose man wearing a skull cap and carrying around bags of money?

[CaptainHook]

Liberals doing their best to take the america out of america

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Liberals doing their best to take the america out of america

That makes no freakin' sense at all. Oh, but taking away our civil liberties is just fine?

[cherylsteele]

Clearly you haven't read my contributions to this thread and are just giving a knee-jerk reaction. You don't appear to have very deep or well-thought-out opinions.

Yep....just insult someone you disagree with. I replied to that particular post. you made a knee-jerk reaction.

My point was...since you need a little explanation.....that these types of discussions are misplaced.


And all your examples are silly.

So is all this talk about changing every team nickname.


I don't see how it is "politically correct" to go out of one's way to treat a group of people with respect. I thought old-fashioned values put a premium on that. How hard is it to go meet some people, shake their hand, and ask?


What makes think that these nicknames are meant to insult? Maybe they are use to keep the memory alive?

Shaking every hand is just plain impractical.


Would it be OK if a team nicknamed itself the Messiahs and had a mascot with long brown hair and a beard who wore a rough tunic and had nail wounds through his hands and feet?

Uh...We do have the Saints and they have fans that do that in the stands....let's rename them too.



And all your examples are silly. Paul Brown named the team after himself. Dolphins aren't people. Chiefs is as generic a name as "Generals."

I always thought names like Braves, Indians, Warriors, were kinda generic.

Like I said if you don't let a name insult you then that name becomes nothing but a bunch of letters. There are better things to do that to worry about team nicknames.

[DrRich]

Now "Redskin", that's offensive!!!

[SWC Bonfire]

Now "Redskin", that's offensive!!!

I am offended.

Sincerely,

The Redskin Peach

http://www.faeriesfinest.com/images/products/peach.gif

[DrRich]

And speaking of, What about all the hard working farmers out there! I'm sure the a offended by "Aggie" :lol

[SWC Bonfire]

And speaking of, What about all the hard working farmers out there! I'm sure the a offended by "Aggie" :lol

SWCBonfire = Aggie by trade & association, so no, I am not offended.

[DrRich]

SWCBonfire = Aggie by trade & association, so no, I am not offended.

:lol My point exactly. If it was the case don't you think tribes from all across america would be outside Fed Ex Stadium protesting the "Redskins"

No they don't because I think in the grand scheme of things, they really couldn't care less (just for you Shelly)! :lol

[Extra Stout]

:lol My point exactly. If it was the case don't you think tribes from all across america would be outside Fed Ex Stadium protesting the "Redskins"

No they don't because I think in the grand scheme of things, they really couldn't care less (just for you Shelly)! :lolWell, in the grand scheme of things, having nicknames for sports teams used possibly in an inappropriate way rather pales in comparison to wholesale conquest and destruction of one's entire society and way of life, so I can understand why they don't get all that steamed about it.

If your whole family gets killed and your house gets burned down and your arms and legs get chopped off, you're probably not going to pay a whole lot of attention to the dog crapping on your lawn.

Pretty much every last one of us here enjoys our way of life at the expense of a tribesman who got killed or shoved out of the way. I don't know what much we can do about it. I wouldn't exist in the first place if immigrants from various European countries hadn't come to America and occupied lands that had been taken from one tribal nation or another. So I mean if I'm going to make restitution I pretty much have to kill myself and will all my property to a Caddo or something. I'm not going to do that.

But, you know, given all that I don't think it's asking too much to be polite to those ones who are left and ask before using their names.

If Myles brand really feels guilty about this, then he needs to relocate to Europe. Or better yet, commit suicide and will his estate to the Seminole tribe. Otherwise, this whole effort of his is just sanctimonious bullshit. How is the use of "Illini" in this context any less offensive than the name of the state Illinois in the first place? It's the same freaking word! To be consistent, shouldn't they be forced to call themselves the "University of Blank Urbana-Champaign?"

[SWC Bonfire]

do all irish fight? I hate generalizations.

Yes, that one actually is true. They also drink too much and get their ass kicked in fights on a regular basis. :lol

[Jelly]

No, all Irish DO NOT fight. That is an ignorant, bigoted stereotype.
They're usually too drunk to fight anyway.

[SWC Bonfire]

Conan O'Brien:

"In the year 2000, computers will think it is the year 1900. They will also grow handlebar mustasches and crack the heads of the Irish."

[GoldToe]

No, all Irish DO NOT fight. That is an ignorant, bigoted stereotype.
They're usually too drunk to fight anyway.

Do they all protect their Lucky Charms?

[Extra Stout]

Yes, that one actually is true. They also drink too much and get their ass kicked in fights on a regular basis. :lolYa think yer funny, do ya? I'll be kickin' yer ass jus' as soon as I finish this pint o' Murphy's!!

[SWC Bonfire]

Ya think yer funny, do ya? I'll be kickin' yer ass jus' as soon as I finish this pint o' Murphy's!!

Well, I'm part Scots-Irish, so I come from people that even the Irish and Scots didn't want and didn't even bother shipping to Australia. :lol

[Jelly]

Well, I'm part Scots-Irish, so I come from people that even the Irish and Scots didn't want and didn't even bother shipping to Australia. :lol

thank you for not saying "Scotch-Irish" :)

[Jelly]

Anybody see Team America?

There's a part where the team leader, Spotteswood, realizes that because of his racist stereotyping they have been chasing the wrong terrorists. It goes something like...

"Team, this is all my fault...it's because of my own narrowminded racism that all this time I thought all terrorists were mid-eastern, but they're not...THEY'RE GODDAMNED GOOKS!!! Damn my racist ways!! I'll never be a racist again!

[Spurminator]

If there's two things I can't stand, it's racism and wetbacks.

[Extra Stout]

Yep....just insult someone you disagree with. I replied to that particular post. you made a knee-jerk reaction.

My point was...since you need a little explanation.....that these types of discussions are misplaced.I didn't insult you because I disagreed. I insulted you because I agreed, and yet you rebutted me. That reflects poorly on your intelligence.

I've noticed this from you over a couple of months -- that you are incapable of sophisticated thought. On every issue, no matter how complicated, there are only two possible opinions in your mind, and the least deviation from yours you interpret as total disagreement. This is a symptom of low cognitive skills.


So is all this talk about changing every team nickname. Yes. It is silly and petty. Read what I've posted -- it's called reading comprehension.


What makes think that these nicknames are meant to insult? Maybe they are use to keep the memory alive?

Shaking every hand is just plain impractical.And yet that is exactly what most of these schools have done. It is why Florida State is especially irritated -- they cooperate with the actual real-life Seminole tribe in the use of these symbols. It's free advertising for the tribe, its traditions, and hopefully for them, its casinos.

The NCAA is telling them it doesn't matter what the tribes themselves think, because Myles Brand is determined to wash the blood off his hands of what happened to American Indians by not letting teams use the nicknames. Which, of course, is asinine on his part. Short of giving them their land and their old way of life back, there's no real restitution. Making it the "Florida State Swamp Dragons" and "Utah Beezz" doesn't change anything. It doesn't get any Seminole children out of poverty. It just helps Myles Brand and his liberal buddies pat themselves on the back about how sensitive and enlightened they are. Thinking that this somehow makes up for anything, to me, is more insulting than even the most offensive use of nicknames in the first place.


Uh...We do have the Saints and they have fans that do that in the stands....let's rename them too.Really, they have fans lampooning Jesus in the stands at Saints games? Where? Can you produce a photo of that?


Like I said if you don't let a name insult you then that name becomes nothing but a bunch of letters. There are better things to do that to worry about team nicknames.There are better things for the NCAA to do, certainly. It should be up to the individual schools to decide what their nicknames should be. If they want to change like Stanford did, so be it. But we don't need a nanny state to make those decisions.

But it's still rude to use the name without asking. For example, while it's true you are an unintelligent fool, a true dullard, an archetypical example of a stupid human being who cannot comprehend nor articulate thoughts on anything higher than a basic level, it's rude for me to point that out. Other posters may have the opinion that I am rude and kind of an asshole for treating you like this. They have a perfect right to believe that, and in fact their opinion has some validity.

However, that does not mean that Kori should come in and ban me. Similarly, while many may think certain uses of native nicknames are inappropriate, it doesn't mean that the NCAA should exercise the authority to ban their use.

Obviously, I don't expect you to understand the analogy.

[Extra Stout]

Well, I'm part Scots-Irish, so I come from people that even the Irish and Scots didn't want and didn't even bother shipping to Australia. :lolAh, laddy, I'm sorry I got cross with ya. Ya know I love ya like my own brother! Come have a drink with me!

[Extra Stout]

thank you for not saying "Scotch-Irish" :)Scotch? Where? I want some!

[SWC Bonfire]

thank you for not saying "Scotch-Irish" :)

If it's naigh Scottish its crap!

[Extra Stout]

If it's naigh Scottish its crap!What size ya want?

Wee, naught so wee, or FRIGGIN' HUGE!!!!!!

[cherylsteele]

I have seen people in robes holding two tablet that seem to represent the 10 commandments.

I have seen people in the stands on TV in robes holding two tablets that seem to represent the 10 commandments.


I've noticed this from you over a couple of months -- that you are incapable of sophisticated thought.

And yet you say this you say you didn't insult me....I would say this is an insult.


I didn't insult you because I disagreed. I insulted you because I agreed, and yet you rebutted me.


You agreed but yet you said there was a rebuttle. Isn't a rebuttle usually associated with disagrement? And yet you imply I am an idot? If felt you felt you agreed then why insult.


On every issue, no matter how complicated, there are only two possible opinions in your mind, and the least deviation from yours you interpret as total disagreement. This is a symptom of low cognitive skills.
Please point out which opinions you are referring to? I have my point of view and wht you state here can go with just about anyone in this forum, so you stoop to insults when you disagree?


Other posters may have the opinion that I am rude and kind of an asshole for treating you like this. They have a perfect right to believe that, and in fact their opinion has some validity.

I have not seen posters say anything about this. And then you say they may be correct about their opinion? Feeling a bit guilty?

I don't insult anyone here who I disagree with. You can even ask around the board. I disagree with many peopand agree with many people here, and vice-versa. I HAVE NEVER INSULTED ANYONE. If you have insult people like this then I pity you.

[Jelly]

But it's still rude to use the name without asking. For example, while it's true you are an unintelligent fool, a true dullard, an archetypical example of a stupid human being who cannot comprehend nor articulate thoughts on anything higher than a basic level, it's rude for me to point that out.
:td

That's just out of line. You may be thinking that you sound like some sophisticated, cleverly caustic insult artist with that drivel, but you're really just coming across as another dime-a-dozen asshole. I have no idea what would inspire you to resort to such unneccessary nastiness and hostility, but you really should try to get ahold of yourself.

[cherylsteele]

Thank you.

[Jelly]

Thank you.

You're welcome :)
He's being a dick and I think everyone can see that even if they don't say so.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Actually, I think this is the Political Forum and that's pretty much par for the course here.

[Jelly]

Actually, I think this is the Political Forum and that's pretty much par for the course here.

yeah, people get nasty here and get carried away sometimes but this...

"you are an unintelligent fool, a true dullard, an archetypical example of a stupid human being who cannot comprehend nor articulate thoughts on anything higher than a basic level, it's rude for me to point that out."

it's just needless hostility and abuse and it's way over the top.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

it's just needless hostility and abuse and it's way over the top.

I stand by my post.

[Extra Stout]

Extra Stout: "Two plus two equals four."

cherylsteele: "What?! No, it doesn't. It equals four!!"

Extra Stout: "You're an idiot."

cherylsteele: "Oh, so if someone disagrees with you, you call them an idiot, huh?"

Sorry if you feel belittled, but frankly I don't care.

Since you can't understand my posts, just don't respond to them. I promise you can go on posting incoherently at will, and as long as it is not in response to me, I won't bother you. But I don't suffer fools at all.

Jelly --> apparently you have mistaken this for the "Nice People Being Nice" forum. Let me warn you that while some of my posts might sound intelligent, and you might even enjoy them, I am extraordinarily unfriendly, hostile, and distant on this forum, and don't really care to change. So just remember this --> :flipoff

[Extra Stout]

From the Tampa Tribune: (http://tampatribune.com/MGBHCC4B1CE.html)

Max Osceola, a member of the five-person Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida, said the NCAA's ban is presumptuous. He said NCAA officials did not consult the tribe before issuing their ruling. The tribe passed a resolution in June supporting the school's use of the nickname and tribal images.

``We're not going to change our point of view,'' Osceola said. ``Our tribe has endorsed it, and we would hope another group would respect our wishes, but I guess the NCAA knows better for the Seminoles than the Seminoles do.''

Osceola drew a distinction between FSU's use of the tribe's name and the Washington Redskins. The latter is a name American Indians find offensive, Osceola said.

[Extra Stout]

Let's have the NCAA go all the way, and ban the use of any Native American terms in their competitions.

For white people to use words like "Texas" to describe their sports teams is offensive to the Caddoes, for one. Let's rename it "Oppressionland" so that we all remember what bad little white people we are. "Oppressionland A&M Aggies." How's that?

[Jim Rome]

HILARIOUS.
NOW IF YOU'LL EXCUSE ME, MY AFRO-AMERICANBERRY IS RINGING.

[Extra Stout]

I also think it'a better to pursue action through the courts in this case than to use the NCAA appeals process. Appealing to the NCAA only reinforces the notion that they have the authority to regulate things like the nicknames of their member schools. I'd seriously question whether they really have the legal power to do that, or if this is just another case of PC liberal academia on a power trip.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Let's have the NCAA go all the way, and ban the use of any Native American terms in their competitions.

For white people to use words like "Texas" to describe their sports teams is offensive to the Caddoes, for one. Let's rename it "Oppressionland" so that we all remember what bad little white people we are. "Oppressionland A&M Aggies." How's that?

Oppressionland State has a nice ring to it.

[Extra Stout]

There are several other states that will have to be renamed:

Mississippi --> West Racismland
Alabama --> East Racismland
Tennessee --> Deliverancia
Oklahoma --> Soonery
Utah --> Mormonia
South Dakota --> South Genocideland
North Dakota --> North Genocideland
Minnesota --> Frigidaire
Wisconsin --> Favreland
Michigan --> Autolousia
Illinois --> Daleyland
Indiana --> Hostileandoffensivia
Ohio --> Drewcaria
Kentucky --> Inbreedia
Alaska --> Anwry
Idaho --> Tuberania
Kansas --> Slaughterland
Arkansas --> Arslaughterland
Missouri --> Pujols

Have I missed any?

[SWC Bonfire]

Utah --> Mormonia

Better than Polygamia

[Spurminator]

Arizona --> Whoneedsmartinlutherkingdayna

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Florida- AmericasWangin University

[SWC Bonfire]

New Mexico -> Stolen In an Illegal War Mexico
California -> Girliemania
Colorado -> Rainbowtopia (don't want to give red preferential treatment)

[Spurminator]

California --> Faketitsylvania

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

California --> Faketitsylvania

Do you have an application? What are your admission requirements?

[Trainwreck2100]

Illinois-->ToogoodfordaylightsavingstimeU

[Extra Stout]

The "Grand Tetons" name is offensive and sexist to women.

We should change it to honor a strong, powerful, progressive woman who has overcome the stringent bind of the patriarchy. Let's name it after a dead lesbian activist!

I hereby christen it the Jean O'Leary Range and Jean O'Leary National Park.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

The "Grand Tetons" name is offensive and sexist to women.

We should change it to honor a strong, powerful, progressive woman who has overcome the stringent bind of the patriarchy. Let's name it after a dead lesbian activist!

I hereby christen it the Jean O'Leary Range and Jean O'Leary National Park.

In similar news, you can't say "breast" in Kentucky.

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/12364369.htm

[Trainwreck2100]

The "Grand Tetons" name is offensive and sexist to women.

We should change it to honor a strong, powerful, progressive woman who has overcome the stringent bind of the patriarchy. Let's name it after a dead lesbian activist!

I hereby christen it the Jean O'Leary Range and Jean O'Leary National Park.

hell no O'Leary had horrible views on the environment.

[Nbadan]

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050811/lester.gif

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

NCAA crackdown on Illiniwek is Bunch of hooey
By Bill McClellan
Of the Post-Dispatch
Monday, Aug. 08 2005

The National Collegiate Athletic Association has announced a crackdown on
colleges and universities that have nicknames or mascots connected to American
Indians. Eighteen schools were cited. One of them was the University of
Illinois, home of the Fighting Illini and mascot Chief Illiniwek.

Before discussing this further, let's put things in historical perspective.
According to the Illinois Blue Book, published by the secretary of state's
office, the first humans arrived in Illinois about 25,000 years ago. The Blue
Book refers to them as Paleo-Indians. In the 17th century, a federation of
tribes including the Cahokias, Kaskaskias, Mitchagamies, Peorias and Tamaroas
met some French explorers. The confederation called itself the Illiniwek, which
translates loosely into group of men, and the French referred to the people and
the country as Illinois.

And Illinois it has remained.

So that brings up our first question. If it is politically incorrect to name a
team after a Native American federation, is it right to name a state after the
federation? Especially when the whole thing is a misunderstanding on the part
of the French. None of the tribes were the Illini. Illiniwek was the name of
the group of tribes. This is like naming the state Bunch of Tribes. Or, more
simply, Bunch. As in, "I grew up in Chicago, Bunch."

Illinois is out. Definitely. Even if you're not offended by the French - and I
know our neighbors across the river in Bunch are blue-staters and presumably
pro-French - we ought to be sensitive enough to figure that if you can't name a
football team after a federation of Native American tribes, you ought not to be
able to name a state after the federation.

At the very least, let's give it its English name - Bunch. We could try to
update it with something more reflective of its present reality. Daleyland has
a nice ring. Corrupcio is nice. Moneytalks sounds good. But for now, let's go
along with history - Bunch.

Now we can deal with the problem facing the University of Bunch. What should
its new nickname be?

How about the Fighting Jews?

I suggest that only because Fighting Irish is already taken. You see, the NCAA
is concerned only about the feelings of Native Americans. You can still use
other ethnic groups for your nicknames and mascots. To a sensitive person, the
Fighting Irish might be particularly bothersome, since you're dealing with an
ethnic slur, a stereotype. The drunken Irish, always brawling. Actually, the
Fighting Jews is a lot less offensive than the Fighting Irish because Jews are
not known for being drunken brawlers.

But maybe the university ought to stay away from religion. I like the Fighting
Iranians. We could have Ayatollah Khomeini as the mascot. Or the Shah. Or both.

Perhaps we should go another direction entirely. Maybe the NCAA will someday
get around to other ethnic groups besides Native Americans. So we need a
nickname that doesn't involve ethnic groups and has something to do with the
state's heritage.

We could give a nod to the plaintiff's bar in Madison County. The court system
there has become world famous. The Fighting Judicial Hellholes. Can't you just
imagine the student section chanting: "We will sue! We will sue!" But what if
reform comes to the legal system? That's unlikely, but possible.

On that score, the political system will never change, and that really is what
the state is most famous for. Does any state have a more colorful history of
corrupt politicians? Democrats, Republicans, black and white. I remember when
Paul Powell died and there were shoeboxes full of cash in his closet. How does
a secretary of state acquire shoeboxes full of cash? George Ryan probably
knows. If you go by number of cronies indicted, he was probably the most
corrupt secretary of state in Bunch history, and he went on to become governor.
On the local level, think of East St. Louis.

So that should satisfy the NCAA - the Fighting Corrupt Pols of the University
of Bunch. And a mascot will be never be a problem. It will always be the
governor.
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 314-340-8143

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/columnists.nsf/billmcclellan/story/49C64A1BA1ADE32986256EE90038B6B0?OpenDocument

[Extra Stout]

hell no O'Leary had horrible views on the environment.

Wow, this is harder than I thought.

How about the All White Men are Evil Range?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Were local Hispanics offended when part of Commerce was named "Cesar Chavez Way"?

Were local blacks offended when part of Commerce was named "Rosa Parks Way"?

You name something to honor them, not degrade them.

[Vashner]

JEB 08! .. come on we need ya buddy.. don't let the dynasty die!

hahahaha

[j-6]

Guys, not to sound too ignorant here or anything, but why the fuck in 2005 are we all of a sudden caring about team names that have been in place for seventy years, and every effort over the years to change them has failed (lawsuits, sit-ins, national coalitions, even as part of the platform for the Alcatraz incident in the early 70's)?

The Redskins were founded in 1932, the Braves (well, that name) in 1912, Indians in 1914 (who were actually named after the Boston Braves), and the Blackhawks in 1926. The Chiefs were the old Dallas Texans, which brings up another point. If we as Texans are offended by Houston's choice of a mascot, what do we do about it?

Russell Means, the famous Lakota Indian activist and head of the militant American Indian Movement, tried to sue the MLB Braves and Indians into changing mascots in the 80's and failed. After that, he didn't even bother trying to sue the NFL. I don't know what he and AIM did about hockey and college sports.

Look, I'm sorry if Indians are offended. Maybe they should do what the University of Hawaii did. They wanted to honor their indigenous people and changed their mascot from Rainbows to Warriors, which the Office of Hawaiian Affairs completely supported.

[jochhejaam]

http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/050811/lester.gif

Let us not forget the Jeep Comanche circa 1984

It's a compliment, naming a rugged vehicle after them.

jochhejaam <------part cherokee

Latest news, Fla. lawmakers take steps to protect mascot names:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2133374