Kawhi vs Durant

[Pako]

I know it is still early but do guys think Pop will ask Kawhi to post up Durant?If Kawhi is capable, that will be a game changer..

[SpurPadre]

I know it is still early but do guys think Pop will ask Kawhi to post up Durant?If Kawhi is capable, that will be a game changer..

He'd foul out faster with bullshit offensive foul calls, tbh.

[daslicer]

Danny Green should guard him primarily only because Kawhi is going to get into early foul trouble guarding him.

[james evans]

He'd foul out faster with bullshit offensive foul calls, tbh.
exactly. i just don't understand why the nba thinks all fans of basketball are fukin stupid. we all see the same shit, but most choose to ignore the favoritism some players get.

[Pako]

How about in the other side of the floor when Durant will guard Kawhi? Should Pop allow Kawhi to post him up? Because if he is capable that will free up Parker against sapalosha...

[daslicer]

One thing I have noticed is the refs give smaller players more leeway to guard Durant without touch fouls being called. Spurs should switch it up a lot with Green,Ginobilli, and even Parker at times against Durant.

[ducks]

paul is doing a decent job on durant

[DesignatedT]

Durant with 18 free throws today

[Brunodf]

Put Green on CP3 and Kawhi on Crawford tbh

[benstanfield]

Durant is guarding Griffin and Blake can't exploit it. I think if OKC goes small it's a better idea to put Boris at 4 and post him up against KD.

Kawhi's post game is only good enough to exploit mismatches at this point.

[EVAY]

Durant is guarding Griffin and Blake can't exploit it. I think if OKC goes small it's a better idea to put Boris at 4 and post him up against KD.

Kawhi's post game is only good enough to exploit mismatches at this point.

good assessment, imo.

[Malik Hairston]

Kawhi was the #1 rated post wing player in the league this season, IIRC..

He has been fine posting up against wings his size, tbh..I can't believe there are still Spurs fans that doubt his offensive ability:lol..

Leonard is extremely overrated as a defender, but underrated as an offensive player..

[Spurs da champs]

Kawhi was the #1 rated post wing player in the league this season, IIRC..

He has been fine posting up against wings his size, tbh..I can't believe there are still Spurs fans that doubt his offensive ability:lol..

Leonard is extremely overrated as a defender, but underrated as an offensive player..

I'm as big a Kawhi fan as anyone, tho I've yet to see him effectively post up someone his size or bigger on a consistent basis, most of his post ups come against mismatches.

Leonards defense ain't overrated, dude practically held LeBron in check for 7 games, the best player in the world was limited by Kawhi...enough with this ridiculous notion of him being an "overrated defender".

[benstanfield]

Sample size.

[therealtruth]

I'm as big a Kawhi fan as anyone, tho I've yet to see him effectively post up someone his size or bigger on a consistent basis, most of his post ups come against mismatches.

Leonards defense ain't overrated, dude practically held LeBron in check for 7 games, the best player in the world was limited by Kawhi...enough with this ridiculous notion of him being an "overrated defender".

I would have liked to see what happened if Pop actually allowed him to play defense instead of backing off so much.

[Pako]

One thing I have noticed is the refs give smaller players more leeway to guard Durant without touch fouls being called. Spurs should switch it up a lot with Green,Ginobilli, and even Parker at times against Durant.
Also it is hard for Durant to shake off smaller defenders since they are quick enough to stay infront of him.. I remember g hill gave him hard time when ghill was in san anton...

[NASpurs]

Let Patty Mills guard him.

[Aremid]

Durant gets so many bs calls it puts the Kobe-era lakers to shame

[UZER]

Leonard can guard him, but he has to set the physical D tone early like Allen. Even if he gets in foul trouble he has to keep being aggressive on D with Durant. As the series goes on, the refs will be more likely to let it go.

Tony Allen's aggressiveness is how you need to play Durant at all times. Allen got away with a lot of contact because he set that tone early in the series.

[BackHome]

CP3 was guarding him today and the Clipps won.

[wildchild]

Leonard is extremely overrated as a defender, but underrated as an offensive player..


I'm as big a Kawhi fan as anyone, tho I've yet to see him effectively post up someone his size or bigger on a consistent basis, most of his post ups come against mismatches.

Leonards defense ain't overrated, dude practically held LeBron in check for 7 games, the best player in the world was limited by Kawhi...enough with this ridiculous notion of him being an "overrated defender".

There is a perception that Leonard's defense is overrated because his iso-play D stats and some bad matchups against smalls and fast pg/sg.

But people often forget that a good defense it's not only about one-on-one D, involves a lot of things.
How to set the defensive tempo of the game, how disrupted rivals flow, throwing off a player's timing, how players change their shots to adapt to Leonard's defense, he's the head man on top of the press of the team?, lead defensive rebounders?, blocks, steals, etc

Kawhi defensive impact is invaluable.
Like guys said in other threads after last game, remember when Spurs lead collapses with Leonard on the bench, then he comes back and the team step up defense...

Leonard's Defense is not overrated, is overall defense.

About Leonard playing Durant on the post...I really want to believe in Post Operation Playoffs -aceg3- but that's never gonna happen, it doesn't seem Pop offensive plan against the Thunder.

[100%duncan]

Kawhi-Green-Diaw

[ezau]

Missed the game, but what's the idea behind CP3 guarding Durant?

[Seventyniner]

Missed the game, but what's the idea behind CP3 guarding Durant?

They were running with Paul, Collison, and Crawford at the same time. Someone had to guard Durant.

[BackHome]

He did a good job they let the little guys get away with a lot more then bigs against Durant.

[dg7md]

Kawhi will have to cover Durant at some point in the series, but I don't think he covers him the whole way due to potential foul troubles. Based on what Kawhi did against LeBron last year, there's no doubt he's capable of getting in the head of any player in the league, so you need to manage his minutes and keep him out of foul trouble. Durant is great but I think Kawhi can stifle him out of his game. Green is also underrated as a defender and could do some work on him.

[Spurs da champs]

I'd rather see as little of Green on Durant as possible, Danny is too small & doesn't play with a physical style like a Tony Allen did to make up for his lack of size. It depends on how the refs call it, as they let Allen get real physical with Durant yet the same can't be said for the Clippers. Tho, I'm of the mindset that you gotta ride your best & biggest perimeter defender in this case, which is clearly Leonard. Foul trouble or not, he's the best choice on Durant, IIRC, he played really good & physical D on Durant the last time these teams played, fwiw.

[MI21]

Leonard will guard him, tbh I'd prefer to see Manu guard Durant over Green. Manu with his old man tricks, flopping and all-around annoyingness seems to annoy Durant a little, as evidenced during the game this season where the Spurs had to play OKC without Danny or Kawhi. He won't stop him or anything, but he will annoy him.

[cd021]

I know it is still early but do guys think Pop will ask Kawhi to post up Durant?If Kawhi is capable, that will be a game changer..

i think the better question is if OKC goes small will Diaw stay out there with Leonard, Duncan, Manu and Parker. That could potentially allow Diaw to post Durant.

[cd021]

I'd rather see as little of Green on Durant as possible, Danny is too small & doesn't play with a physical style like a Tony Allen did to make up for his lack of size. It depends on how the refs call it, as they let Allen get real physical with Durant yet the same can't be said for the Clippers. Tho, I'm of the mindset that you gotta ride your best & biggest perimeter defender in this case, which is clearly Leonard. Foul trouble or not, he's the best choice on Durant, IIRC, he played really good & physical D on Durant the last time these teams played, fwiw.

I agree. I was surprised how much they let Allen hound KD. Henry Abbot suggested that him coming off the bench allowed for him to be a bit more aggressive, with out having to worry about foul trouble and the Refs early whistles that force everyone to adjust to the level of contact being allowed.


I'd like to see some Diaw on KD, just to throw another body at him. He is a bit bigger than both and can make Durant use some energy banging with Diaw in the post. KD is a tougher cover due to his range but its worth a shot in limited situations.

Green is much better suited on guards like WB and Jackson with his length and quickness.

[look_at_g_shred]

Kawhi was the #1 rated post wing player in the league this season, IIRC..

He has been fine posting up against wings his size, tbh..I can't believe there are still Spurs fans that doubt his offensive ability:lol..

Leonard is extremely overrated as a defender, but underrated as an offensive player..
Kawhi's D overrated, ok :lmao Take him off the team and look how bad our d takes a hit. Some people.

[Chinook]

Kawhi's D overrated, ok :lmao Take him off the team and look how bad our d takes a hit. Some people.

There's a big gap between being overrated and being bad. Leonard is a fine defender, but people think he's better at man-to-man defense than he actually is.


There is a perception that Leonard's defense is overrated because his iso-play D stats and some bad matchups against smalls and fast pg/sg.

But people often forget that a good defense it's not only about one-on-one D, involves a lot of things.
How to set the defensive tempo of the game, how disrupted rivals flow, throwing off a player's timing, how players change their shots to adapt to Leonard's defense, he's the head man on top of the press of the team?, lead defensive rebounders?, blocks, steals, etc

Kawhi defensive impact is invaluable.
Like guys said in other threads after last game, remember when Spurs lead collapses with Leonard on the bench, then he comes back and the team step up defense...

Leonard's Defense is not overrated, is overall defense.

About Leonard playing Durant on the post...I really want to believe in Post Operation Playoffs -aceg3- but that's never gonna happen, it doesn't seem Pop offensive plan against the Thunder.

No one forgets Leonard's off-ball defense. Harlem is actually saying the opposite of what you're saying. He's saying Kawhi's off-ball defense makes people believe he's a better individual defender than he actually is. He's referring to Leonard being overrated when compared to Green specifically. He believes Green is the better defender, both individual and team, and the numbers bear Harlem out.

[Chinook]

Green did a fine job on Durant when Danny was the primary defender. Green can guard almost an perimeter player well if his guard is a ball-dominating player. The problem is Green guarding Durant is that he's not ideal for it, while he is ideal to guard Reggie Jackson. Guarding Westbrook is more of a strategic thing than a match-up thing. The bigs need to guard the paint and force Russ to take jumpers. Honestly, OKC isn't really a Green team like Dallas and Portland are. He could still have a huge impact on that series, but he's not automatically the best two-guard if Beli is hitting shots. Green should be in whenever OKC plays two PGs, but after that, he's pretty much Leonard's insurance.

[DesignatedT]

Green is probably the better on ball defender, especially when it comes to smaller guards but Kawhi makes more of an impact on the game defensively by creating momentum plays so to speak that turn into easy offense. And obviously his defensive rebounding ability.

[Chinook]

Green is probably the better on ball defender, especially when it comes to smaller guards but Kawhi makes more of an impact on the game defensively by creating momentum plays so to speak that turn into easy offense. And obviously his defensive rebounding ability.

Rebounding, yes. Overall court impact is debatable. Green has superior stats to Leonard in all defensive metrics that aren't based on rebounding. Those include on-off numbers. Kawhi makes splash plays, which is why people assume he has the bigger impact.

[DesignatedT]

I think Leonard being asked to guard players he probably isn't perfectly suited for plays a role in that. Green really isn't asked to defend 6"10 wings all the time; while a lot of the time Leonard is asked to defend 6"2 guards on a daily basis.

[Chinook]

That's true to a certain extent. But it cuts both ways. If Leonard is on a guard, then Green is on a forward. Danny does have to go up against the Parsons, Batums and Marions of the NBA while Kawhi checks their two-guard counterparts. Then you have to factor in that RRT where Green had to guard everybody because Leonard was out. We're talking John Wall (and Ariza AND Beal depending on the situation) one night, Joe Johnson (and Deron Williams AND Pierce) another night. Then John Smith, then Kyrie Irving. He serious guarded Batum, Lopez and Lillard in the same stretch during the Portland game.

Danny had to deal with a lot of physical mismatches just like Leonard. Often, they weren't the opposing team's best player (since Pop foolishly keep Kawhi on those players even when he wasn't suited to it), but they weren't cake walks. Leonard got just as many easy nights as Danny did, which wasn't that many since they both worked hard all year. Green's numbers have plenty of samples against great players to not make excuses for Leonard.

That doesn't even account for the team numbers which for the most part aren't effected by who guards whom.

[Nathan89]

If Leonard is on a guard, then Green is on a forward. Danny does have to go up against the Parsons, Batums and Marions of the NBA while Kawhi checks their two-guard counterparts.

So your saying Kawhi has to guard the more threatening player? How does that help your argument? Logically both Green and Kawhi are playing non-ideal match-ups but Kawhi is stuck on the more threatening offensive option.

I guess address some of this in the second paragraph.

[Nathan89]

Parsons, Batums and Marions

Danny had to deal with a lot of physical mismatches just like Leonard. Often, they weren't the opposing team's best player (since Pop foolishly keep Kawhi on those players even when he wasn't suited to it), but they weren't cake walks. Leonard got just as many easy nights as Danny did, which wasn't that many since they both worked hard all year. Green's numbers have plenty of samples against great players to not make excuses for Leonard.



Those three are cake walks in comparison to who Kawhi would be guarding.

[ElNono]

I know Chinook has certain Green Colored Glasses (tm) :lol, but Kawhi simply has the bigger impact offensively, besides a very good defensive focus. While both still have work to do in various areas offensively, Kawhi simply has more weapons to take on the opposition 1 on 1 if needed, something Danny doesn't really have on a consistent basis. This all plays a role even on defense, as we've seen in the first round series, where a solid coach like Carlisle could simply use Danny to hide and rest talented offensive players that are mediocre on defense (see: Calderon). Part of the defensive work includes making the other team's best offensive players work hard on the defensive end. Kawhi can simply make you pay for that: his post game is fairly good, and he has a fairly solid mid-range jumper off a curl or screen, areas where Danny still need to improve.

Kawhi has some offensive improvements to make on his own, like better footwork, better finishing around the rim, keep working on his shot (including freebies), and more trust in his offensive game and less hesitation, but overall, he's ahead in the development curve than Danny (at least on that side of the court).

[Chinook]

So your saying Kawhi has to guard the more threatening player? How does that help your argument? Logically both Green and Kawhi are playing non-ideal match-ups but Kawhi is stuck on the more threatening offensive option.

I guess address some of this in the second paragraph.

No, Leonard doesn't have to guard the more-threatening player. I addressed that in the second point. I was referring to T's argument that Kawhi has to face physical mismatches more than Green does. You can say MWP (from a couple of years ago) wasn't in the same league as Kobe (and you'd be right). But physically speaking, Kawhi is a better match to guard Kobe than Green is to guard MWP. Didn't stop Danny from shutting Peace down at a time where he was having a bit of a resurgence offensively.


I know Chinook has certain Green Colored Glasses (tm) :lol, but Kawhi simply has the bigger impact offensively, besides a very good defensive focus. While both still have work to do in various areas offensively, Kawhi simply has more weapons to take on the opposition 1 on 1 if needed, something Danny doesn't really have on a consistent basis. This all plays a role even on defense, as we've seen in the first round series, where a solid coach like Carlisle could simply use Danny to hide and rest talented offensive players that are mediocre on defense (see: Calderon). Part of the defensive work includes making the other team's best offensive players work hard on the defensive end. Kawhi can simply make you pay for that: his post game is fairly good, and he has a fairly solid mid-range jumper off a curl or screen, areas where Danny still need to improve.

Kawhi has some offensive improvements to make on his own, like better footwork, better finishing around the rim, keep working on his shot (including freebies), and more trust in his offensive game and less hesitation, but overall, he's ahead in the development curve than Danny (at least on that side of the court).

Where did I say anything about offense? I was defending Harlems' assertion that Leonard is overrated defensively. That same assertion says Kawhi is underrated offensively, which I believe wholeheartedly. Don't take me as a Leonard basher. I think he's a superior overall player to Green. He's just not a far superior defender like many Spurs fans and NBA watchers believe.

[wildchild]

No one forgets Leonard's off-ball defense. Harlem is actually saying the opposite of what you're saying. He's saying Kawhi's off-ball defenses make people believe he's a better individual defender than he actually is. He's referring to Leonard being overrated when compared to Green specifically. He believes Green is the better defender, both individual and team, and the numbers bear Harlem out.

Well, he didn't mention Danny. I couldn't agree more, Green's contribution is so underestimated.
He's a great defender, the best iso-play defender but not the best perimeter defender because as I said, a good defense is more than that.
And that's why I don't like the criteria to choose DPOY, you can't think only one side -just blocks or just rebounds or just iso-d, or just...- is the right way/whole picture.
I love Danny/Kawhi defensive combo, one of the best in the league, these two guys complement one another's strengths and weaknesses, but IMO Leonard is the best defender because his versatility and overall D.

[Chinook]

Well, he didn't mention Danny. I couldn't agree more, Green's contribution is so underestimated.
He's a great defender, the best iso-play defender but not the best perimeter defender because as I said, a good defense is more than that.
And that's why I don't like the criteria to choose DPOY, you can't think only one side -just blocks or just rebounds or just iso-d, or just...- is the right way/whole picture.
I love Danny/Kawhi defensive combo, one of the best in the league, these two guys complement one another's strengths and weaknesses, but IMO Leonard is the best defender because his versatility and overall D.

Um, Danny is a better help defender as well as on-ball defender. Kawhi is better at getting steals and rebounds in addition to guarding big forwards. That's about it. That's not to disparage Kawhi's defense (and certainly not his overall game, Nono). Rather, it is to explain why the Spurs defense is elite when Pop actually plays the correct rotations. I agree that Danny and Kawhi are both part of a great combo and that they both deserve the credit. But people give Kawhi too much credit, both individual and impact. The stats just don't bear that out.

[Nathan89]

No, Leonard doesn't have to guard the more-threatening player. I addressed that in the second point. I was referring to T's argument that Kawhi has to face physical mismatches more than Green does. You can say MWP (from a couple of years ago) wasn't in the same league as Kobe (and you'd be right). But physically speaking, Kawhi is a better match to guard Kobe than Green is to guard MWP. Didn't stop Danny from shutting Peace down at a time where he was having a bit of a resurgence offensively.


That's not nearly as difficult when you factor in offensive ability of the opponent. I expect more success from that combination regardless if it's more of a physical mismatch.

[in2deep]

Kawhi's D overrated, ok :lmao Take him off the team and look how bad our d takes a hit. Some people.

:lol

[aal04]

CP3 probably has the hgihest bbiq in the game.

You need someone who knows how to read the refs and plays and can make a bad call look like a really bad call imo.

[ElNono]

Where did I say anything about offense? I was defending Harlems' assertion that Leonard is overrated defensively. That same assertion says Kawhi is underrated offensively, which I believe wholeheartedly. Don't take me as a Leonard basher. I think he's a superior overall player to Green. He's just not a far superior defender like many Spurs fans and NBA watchers believe.

I don't particularly think he's overrated because I haven't heard anybody call him "a lock-down defender" or such cliches... he's a solid perimeter defender and a great rebounder, and in general so is Danny (I still hate Danny buying on pump fakes all the time, he need to stop with that).

But I also think that some of these conversations focus on very narrow areas and miss the bigger picture (not saying specifically you do, just in general). There's many aspects about defense besides hard numbers. Look at Lillard talking about fatigue and complaining about tough screens. That's credit to the bigs, and that's part of what makes an entire defensive system work. Perhaps against certain teams that do a lot of ISO and 1-on-1 you can get a clearer picture, but the Spurs are a team that has been doing the little things all around, and while you still need solid defensive players to get anywhere, there's simply much more than players isolated on an island.

[hooperflash]

Time for Mr. Leonard to grow up some more.

[ElNono]

Um, Danny is a better help defender as well as on-ball defender. Kawhi is better at getting steals and rebounds in addition to guarding big forwards. That's about it. That's not to disparage Kawhi's defense (and certainly not his overall game, Nono). Rather, it is to explain why the Spurs defense is elite when Pop actually plays the correct rotations. I agree that Danny and Kawhi are both part of a great combo and that they both deserve the credit. But people give Kawhi too much credit, both individual and impact. The stats just don't bear that out.

The biggest drawback for Danny is that Manu has to play because he's the only other creator on the team. Kawhi in general has it easy. Pop doesn't have to balance offense-defense that much at his position. I also think Pop likes to see if the team can set a serious defensive tone with the starting unit, then do a switcheroo to a full blown offensive lineup and see if the other team buys that defense is still there. Carlisle didn't buy it and made him pay. Stotts so far did.

[MeloHype]

He'll get 2 early fouls, then apalisoc_9 will make 7 threads crying Leonard isn't playing 48 minutes per game

[Chinook]

That's not nearly as difficult when you factor in offensive ability of the opponent. I expect more success from that combination regardless if it's more of a physical mismatch.

You're underestimating the difficulty of a smaller man having to guard a bigger man in the post. MWP is a PF essentially, and he was scoring at lot at the time. Even if he wasn't in Kobe's league offensively, that's not an easy assignment, especially since Bryant is more of a jump-shooter.

In any event, T's point was off-base. In the RS, the Spurs rarely cross-matched with small guards for more than a short period of time. Kawhi's numbers aren't hurt because he played against quick players. Pop's only been cross-matching religiously in the playoffs, and it's not like Leonard was exemplary in his assignments.

[Kawhi]

Kawhi's D overrated, ok :lmao Take him off the team and look how bad our d takes a hit. Some people.


He'll get 2 early fouls, then apalisoc_9 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11260) will make 7 threads crying Leonard isn't playing 48 minutes per gamethis is true

[Chinook]

The biggest drawback for Danny is that Manu has to play because he's the only other creator on the team. Kawhi in general has it easy. Pop doesn't have to balance offense-defense that much at his position. I also think Pop likes to see if the team can set a serious defensive tone with the starting unit, then do a switcheroo to a full blown offensive lineup and see if the other team buys that defense is still there. Carlisle didn't buy it and made him pay. Stotts so far did.

Manu's going to play no matter what. The problem (when it's actually a problem) is that Pop seems keen to play Beli or Mills in front of Green, especially if Danny makes a mistake. I really think Pop needs to go five-deep in the perimeter rotation when the chips are down. Manu needs to play unless he's absolutely throwing the game away. After that, Pop needs to put a shooter and a defender next to him. If he wants some more play-making, he can try Beli out there. If he wants more speed, he can put Mills in. But for all intents and purposes, Green should be the defensive backup PG against OKC or LAC. That plays to Green's strengths while also helping to fix the second units greatest weakness.

[SpursFan86]

Here's a question: when OKC plays Jackson/Westbrook/Durant together at the same time, who should be guarding Jackson? Assuming Kawhi guards Durant and Green gets Westbrook.

[Spurs da champs]

Here's a question: when OKC plays Jackson/Westbrook/Durant together at the same time, who should be guarding Jackson? Assuming Kawhi guards Durant and Green gets Westbrook.
Tony.

[apalisoc_9]

Leonard is the best defender in our team, however the idea that he's our best defender in virtually every perimeter and even stretch 4's is what makes him overrated. Pop for the most part believes in this, a lot of analyst believes in this and a lot of spurs fans. The reality is that, Green defends quicker 1's and 2's better than Leonard, and even at times Boris does a better job at guarding strong SF's ( I thought Diaw did a better job than Leonard guarding Lebron last year)

At the same time, His reputation of being the best defender in the team has made him super underrated on the offensive end. He's one of the most efficient scorer in the league, can create shots for himself, a solid passer, Can run pick and rolls..But his role in this team doesn't allow him to do the latter, sadly.

[ElNono]

Manu's going to play no matter what. The problem (when it's actually a problem) is that Pop seems keen to play Beli or Mills in front of Green, especially if Danny makes a mistake. I really think Pop needs to go five-deep in the perimeter rotation when the chips are down. Manu needs to play unless he's absolutely throwing the game away. After that, Pop needs to put a shooter and a defender next to him. If he wants some more play-making, he can try Beli out there. If he wants more speed, he can put Mills in. But for all intents and purposes, Green should be the defensive backup PG against OKC or LAC. That plays to Green's strengths while also helping to fix the second units greatest weakness.

The way I see it there's not an answer that works all the time. I think Green should get the nod if Belli is being attacked and getting torched like in the first round, where that was a very specific attack vector for the Mavs. We discussed some of this already, but the biggest vulnerability last seasons' 2nd unit had, IMO, is the fact that Manu was pretty much the head of the snake. I think the evolution of Mills, the improvement of Diaw and the mid-long range of Beli are key in actually having a 2nd unit not so dependent on Manu for offense. Even if Green had to play because of the scenario described above, his value would be diminished, and I can only see a few areas where he would actually help the offense of the 2nd unit in a meaningful way (probably playing a 4-down with Diaw in the post, and certain hammer plays out of timeouts). You don't really even need to put a tall guy on him to neutralize his 3 point shooting, and there would be nothing an opposing coach would want more than Danny trying to dribble a basketball. The bench biggest goal is actually to keep up with scoring. A lot of times, they'll still be playing against a good chunk of the other team's starters (ie: OKC loves to play Durant with the bench, Miami does the same with Lebron). Green being a solid defender in the 2nd unit doesn't really make the team a better defensive unit overall. Mills can still be exploited, so can an aging Manu, Diaw is no shot-blocker or rim protector. We're going to be at a disadvantage even if Green can check a guy or two. Pop is fairly aware of this, and I'm pretty sure it's the reason why scoring is the biggest goal when that unit is out there. They're just buying minutes for our starters (+Manu) to step back into the court and resume the solid defensive play.

[SpursFan86]

Leonard is the best defender in our team, however the idea that he's our best defender in virtually every perimeter and even stretch 4's is what makes him overrated.

Exactly. A lot of people have this notion that Kawhi should just guard whoever the #1 player on the other team is, regardless of the type of player it may be. People seem to have this mindset of "Oh, just stick Kawhi on him and we'll be fine". Sticking Kawhi on guys like Westbrook and Lillard typically isn't a good idea; Green is much better suited for those jobs. However on guys like LeBron, Durant, and Melo, Kawhi typically excels.

[Chinook]

Here's a question: when OKC plays Jackson/Westbrook/Durant together at the same time, who should be guarding Jackson? Assuming Kawhi guards Durant and Green gets Westbrook.

Parker should guard Westbrook. As I said before, stopping Russ is more about a team committing to force him to take jumpers more than it is about an individual player stopping him. Westbrook is a bigger, stronger Ellis who should be gameplanned for the same way.


Leonard is the best defender in our team, however the idea that he's our best defender in virtually every perimeter and even stretch 4's is what makes him overrated. Pop for the most part believes in this, a lot of analyst believes in this and a lot of spurs fans. The reality is that, Green defends quicker 1's and 2's better than Leonard, and even at times Boris does a better job at guarding strong SF's ( I thought Diaw did a better job than Leonard guarding Lebron last year)

At the same time, His reputation of being the best defender in the team has made him super underrated on the offensive end. He's one of the most efficient scorer in the league, can create shots for himself, a solid passer, Can run pick and rolls..But his role in this team doesn't allow him to do the latter, sadly.

Agree with most of this. Kawhi is underrated offensively because people see him as a defensive stopper in the Bowen mold. Leonard is worlds better now offensively than Bowen ever was. Green is a more accurate comparison to Bowen than Leonard on both sides of the ball, but people will just not bring themselves to believe it because they have an over-inflated memory of Bowen and hold Green's mistakes against him. Obviously, Bruce was still the superior defender, but it was not by the margin people think, and with Green being a much more dynamic shooter, their overall impacts are similar. It's just unfair to box Kawhi into the debate at all.

[Chinook]

The way I see it there's not an answer that works all the time. I think Green should get the nod if Belli is being attacked and getting torched like in the first round, where that was a very specific attack vector for the Mavs. We discussed some of this already, but the biggest vulnerability last seasons' 2nd unit had, IMO, is the fact that Manu was pretty much the head of the snake. I think the evolution of Mills, the improvement of Diaw and the mid-long range of Beli are key in actually having a 2nd unit not so dependent on Manu for offense. Even if Green had to play because of the scenario described above, his value would be diminished, and I can only see a few areas where he would actually help the offense of the 2nd unit in a meaningful way (probably playing a 4-down with Diaw in the post, and certain hammer plays out of timeouts). You don't really even need to put a tall guy on him to neutralize his 3 point shooting, and there would be nothing an opposing coach would want more than Danny trying to dribble a basketball. The bench biggest goal is actually to keep up with scoring. A lot of times, they'll still be playing against a good chunk of the other team's starters (ie: OKC loves to play Durant with the bench, Miami does the same with Lebron). Green being a solid defender in the 2nd unit doesn't really make the team a better defensive unit overall. Mills can still be exploited, so can an aging Manu, Diaw is no shot-blocker or rim protector. We're going to be at a disadvantage even if Green can check a guy or two. Pop is fairly aware of this, and I'm pretty sure it's the reason why scoring is the biggest goal when that unit is out there. They're just buying minutes for our starters (+Manu) to step back into the court and resume the solid defensive play.

I think you're thinking too intelligently about this, no offense. Against OKC, the biggest goal is to stop their penetration. Stopping Jackson kills the Thunder's second unit. Obviously, we're talking about the short gaps when Durant is not playing, since that's not really a traditional bench match for either team. Leonard will still be there, and so would Parker for good chunks of time. It's even worse against LAC since Collison is guardable by Mills despite Darren's blitz tonight. I don't think either team, especially not the Thunder, are going to have the strategy to attack Mills or Beli with whomever's guarding them. Their usual scorers have to score no matter what, and there really isn't a lot of variety in that.

So let's just focus on the short periods of time where the Spurs full bench would be in the game. I honestly don't see a huge difference between Mills' game and Green's game when he feel he has the green light. They take about the same shots with the same general level of success (and same streakiness). Yes, Patty is a gunner, Neal with jets. But Green can absolutely be a legitimate offensive piece. The great thing about the second unit is that Manu makes more plays from the perimeter than Tony does. That allows Green to come off more screens (which is what Mills already does) and make cuts, since he doesn't have to worry about interfering with a drive. Obviously, Danny can spot up as well as Mills can. You're right that we have talked about this before, so you should know which suggestion I'd make to get more offense out of Green.

If anything, I see Beli's game as the harder one to replace, since Marco hits more shots on the move (which as you know means he has a larger window to release the ball since he doesn't have to set his feet first) and is more dynamic inside the arch than either Mills or Green. I like Marco in transition more than Mills as well. And even though Beli sucks on defense, I think he's a better option to defend OKC's least-threatening perimeter player than Mills. Butler at least would not be able to shoot over Beli, and he should be able to avoid having Fisher back him down.

[ElNono]

I think you're thinking too intelligently about this, no offense. Against OKC, the biggest goal is to stop their penetration. Stopping Jackson kills the Thunder's second unit. Obviously, we're talking about the short gaps when Durant is not playing, since that's not really a traditional bench match for either team. Leonard will still be there, and so would Parker for good chunks of time. It's even worse against LAC since Collison is guardable by Mills despite Darren's blitz tonight. I don't think either team, especially not the Thunder, are going to have the strategy to attack Mills or Beli with whomever's guarding them. Their usual scorers have to score no matter what, and there really isn't a lot of variety in that.

Agree with some things, disagree on others. I agree that neither of those teams would actively try to exploit them. I also suspect Pop will actually match up differently than it did during the regular season against that unit. This is just my guess, but I think we'll see the following pairings on defense: Mills on Fisher, Beli on Butler and Manu on Reggie. (there are reasons for this, Jackson I'll touch in a minute, but the rest it's kinda long to put in one post, and I might just be wrong about the reasoning anyways). While I don't completely disagree that stopping Jackson's penetration does a lot of damage to their second unit, I also think it's much more complex than that. Both Adams and Collison will set great (read: moving) screens, and so the value of having a good one on one defender is somewhat diminished. Recovery is tough against such a guy, and I think what Pop fears the most isn't necessarily Reggie finishing every play (a la Monta), but the actual kickout and the 3 pointers. If you've seen the series against Memphis, it was really the 3 point shooter (Butler specifically, but it can be Fisher too), that amped up their bench output (except for one game where Reggie went off, but it should be noted Reggie ended up playing with the starters too in that game, in place of sefolosha).


So let's just focus on the short periods of time where the Spurs full bench would be in the game. I honestly don't see a huge difference between Mills' game and Green's game when he feel he has the green light. They take about the same shots with the same general level of success (and same streakiness). Yes, Patty is a gunner, Neal with jets. But Green can absolutely be a legitimate offensive piece. The great thing about the second unit is that Manu makes more plays from the perimeter than Tony does. That allows Green to come off more screens (which is what Mills already does) and make cuts, since he doesn't have to worry about interfering with a drive. Obviously, Danny can spot up as well as Mills can. You're right that we have talked about this before, so you should know which suggestion I'd make to get more offense out of Green.

I do see a pretty big difference, and that is that Mills can dribble around a screen and get off a shot. He might make or miss, but Danny cannot reliably do that. As a matter of fact, the moment Danny puts the ball on the floor to go around a screen is the moment you trap him/crowd him and that's the end of that. Mills is simply smaller, faster, and can actually dribble quicker. Faster first step, and simply much more comfortable with his shot from anywhere, long ball or mid-range. Making a concerted effort to trap Patty is doable too, but I think it's more difficult because of foot speed and much better handles.


If anything, I see Beli's game as the harder one to replace, since Marco hits more shots on the move (which as you know means he has a larger window to release the ball since he doesn't have to set his feet first) and is more dynamic inside the arch than either Mills or Green. I like Marco in transition more than Mills as well. And even though Beli sucks on defense, I think he's a better option to defend OKC's least-threatening perimeter player than Mills. Butler at least would not be able to shoot over Beli, and he should be able to avoid having Fisher back him down.

Marco also has better court vision. But Butler is the perfect guy to hide him on defense. Butler will camp in the corner, and will only get free using screens from bigs. But he's really a release valve when the offense stagnates. As long as Belli is focused on not leaving him alone (and in general he's done that well against Batum), Butler isn't going to take on him one on one.

[Leetonidas]

Put Splitter on Durant tbh

[313]

I know Chinook has certain Green Colored Glasses (tm) :lol, but Kawhi simply has the bigger impact offensively, besides a very good defensive focus. While both still have work to do in various areas offensively, Kawhi simply has more weapons to take on the opposition 1 on 1 if needed, something Danny doesn't really have on a consistent basis. This all plays a role even on defense, as we've seen in the first round series, where a solid coach like Carlisle could simply use Danny to hide and rest talented offensive players that are mediocre on defense (see: Calderon). Part of the defensive work includes making the other team's best offensive players work hard on the defensive end. Kawhi can simply make you pay for that: his post game is fairly good, and he has a fairly solid mid-range jumper off a curl or screen, areas where Danny still need to improve.

Kawhi has some offensive improvements to make on his own, like better footwork, better finishing around the rim, keep working on his shot (including freebies), and more trust in his offensive game and less hesitation, but overall, he's ahead in the development curve than Danny (at least on that side of the court).Also passing

[313]

Green is an excellent on ball defender, but his off ball D is still infuriating. I don't have any advanced metrics, but from what I've seen he still helps needlessly, often one pass away, and bites on every single pump fake.

[Prime Time]

Ahem, isn't this why the Spurs acquired Daye? :rolleyes

[DesignatedT]

That's true to a certain extent. But it cuts both ways. If Leonard is on a guard, then Green is on a forward. Danny does have to go up against the Parsons, Batums and Marions of the NBA while Kawhi checks their two-guard counterparts. Then you have to factor in that RRT where Green had to guard everybody because Leonard was out. We're talking John Wall (and Ariza AND Beal depending on the situation) one night, Joe Johnson (and Deron Williams AND Pierce) another night. Then John Smith, then Kyrie Irving. He serious guarded Batum, Lopez and Lillard in the same stretch during the Portland game.

Danny had to deal with a lot of physical mismatches just like Leonard. Often, they weren't the opposing team's best player (since Pop foolishly keep Kawhi on those players even when he wasn't suited to it), but they weren't cake walks. Leonard got just as many easy nights as Danny did, which wasn't that many since they both worked hard all year. Green's numbers have plenty of samples against great players to not make excuses for Leonard.

That doesn't even account for the team numbers which for the most part aren't effected by who guards whom.

My case wasn't as much Kawhi has to guard the superior players on a nightly basis but that Kawhi is guarding a lot more out of position when compared to Danny.

[Jimcs50]

Danny Green should guard him primarily only because Kawhi is going to get into early foul trouble guarding him.




Green

[Wildcat67]

The thing about Kawhi's defense that people seem to always exclude, is that he almost never guards a guy in a true one-on-one situation. Teams always come to screen him. Nobody ever tries to just take Kawhi to the basket by making a move and blowing by him. Once they come to set a screen it is no longer man-to-man defense it becomes team defense in a two-on-two situation.

Teams do this because that way Kawhi can be accounted for more easily on defense. They don't have to worry about him playing the passing lanes as much or coming down to strip at the ball from the ball handler.

It's hard to say he is overrated as a one-on-one defender when he is actually only put in that situation maybe once a game, and when he is he often get's a steal, forces a pickup, or forces his man to give up the ball.

[Gagnrath]

My take on two things here.

Guarding Durant is alot like guarding earlier years Dirk, you don't have to be super tall, you don't have to be super fast, you do have to body him up and face guard him. Don't let him jump into or through you at the start of his fade away jumper. He will get his points make him take alot of inefficient shots to do it. On that point I really think Bellinelli, and Manu can both be useful against him not for long as primary defenders but to body him up with a hard foul on the floor on switches, both are also long enough to stay in his face and cut passing lanes if foul trouble happens for a game on either green or leonard.

The second point is that taking Durrant out of the game isn't and never has been the key to beating the Thunder, its making Westbrook fall in love with being a jumpshooter/scorer and taking hard shots while not letting one of their secondary players go off. Spurs are good at the first but have trouble with the second.

[Chinook]

My case wasn't as much Kawhi has to guard the superior players on a nightly basis but that Kawhi is guarding a lot more out of position when compared to Danny.

I know what you meant. Nathan went on that other line of reasoning.

I disagree with you, though, for three reasons: First, I don't think it's fair to claim Leonard guarding two-guards is a mismatch without thinking Green guarding small-forwards is one. Green had to guard bigger players very often, while most of Kawhi's cross-matches were player who are about his size. Take this series for example. Who has the bigger mismatch: Leonard guarding Matthews or Green guarding Batum? I'd say Green does. Also, the Spurs didn't really cross-match all that much during the regular season.

Second, even if that were the case, Green played enough games where he had to guard in mismatches for that not to be an excuse for Leonard. Green held opposing SFs to a PER of 9 when he was playing out of position. That's hard to ignore.

Third, Green also had superior numbers for team defense. That takes the individual match-ups out of the conversation and focuses on impact while on the floor.

[Chinook]

Agree with some things, disagree on others. I agree that neither of those teams would actively try to exploit them. I also suspect Pop will actually match up differently than it did during the regular season against that unit. This is just my guess, but I think we'll see the following pairings on defense: Mills on Fisher, Beli on Butler and Manu on Reggie. (there are reasons for this, Jackson I'll touch in a minute, but the rest it's kinda long to put in one post, and I might just be wrong about the reasoning anyways). While I don't completely disagree that stopping Jackson's penetration does a lot of damage to their second unit, I also think it's much more complex than that. Both Adams and Collison will set great (read: moving) screens, and so the value of having a good one on one defender is somewhat diminished. Recovery is tough against such a guy, and I think what Pop fears the most isn't necessarily Reggie finishing every play (a la Monta), but the actual kickout and the 3 pointers. If you've seen the series against Memphis, it was really the 3 point shooter (Butler specifically, but it can be Fisher too), that amped up their bench output (except for one game where Reggie went off, but it should be noted Reggie ended up playing with the starters too in that game, in place of sefolosha).

I still think you're giving OKC too much credit for play-calling. Your right that their bigs set great screens. But so long as the Spurs bigs hedge, the driving lanes should not be open. That may leave open the roll man, but that's easier to contain. I doubt OKC can continuously make the Spurs scramble like Dallas did. If the PnR isn't going, I think the Thunder would run more iso plays, which they did often in the regular season with Jackson (although that may have been to Westbrook being out). I think Manu could do a good job on Jackson in the PnR, since he's a smart defender. But I don't like him one-on-one.


I do see a pretty big difference, and that is that Mills can dribble around a screen and get off a shot. He might make or miss, but Danny cannot reliably do that. As a matter of fact, the moment Danny puts the ball on the floor to go around a screen is the moment you trap him/crowd him and that's the end of that. Mills is simply smaller, faster, and can actually dribble quicker. Faster first step, and simply much more comfortable with his shot from anywhere, long ball or mid-range. Making a concerted effort to trap Patty is doable too, but I think it's more difficult because of foot speed and much better handles.

They have different skill-sets, but I think the biggest difference to their play styles is who they play with. Pop actually calls plays for Mills when he's out there with the second unit. That and transition are the two biggest ways that Pop makes use of Patty's speed. Pop almost never makes use of Green's size advantage (when he has it) or the skills Danny has from playing PF in college. We see them every so often, like in Game Six of the Dallas series where Danny just kept going inside against Ellis. Or Game Four of last year's WCSF where Green kept using his height advantage over Curry around the rim. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the offense needs to go toward Green post-ups. But I think overall, both Green and Mills have their pluses and minuses on offense.


Marco also has better court vision. But Butler is the perfect guy to hide him on defense. Butler will camp in the corner, and will only get free using screens from bigs. But he's really a release valve when the offense stagnates. As long as Belli is focused on not leaving him alone (and in general he's done that well against Batum), Butler isn't going to take on him one on one.

Agreed. That's a big reason why I think a Green/Ginobili/Belinelli small group would work well against a Jackson/Fisher/Butler group.

[xellos88330]

exactly. i just don't understand why the nba thinks all fans of basketball are fukin stupid. we all see the same shit, but most choose to ignore the favoritism some players get.

I would have to disagree with this. If it truly were ignored, the term "superstar call" would never have been coined.

[ElNono]

I still think you're giving OKC too much credit for play-calling. Your right that their bigs set great screens. But so long as the Spurs bigs hedge, the driving lanes should not be open. That may leave open the roll man, but that's easier to contain. I doubt OKC can continuously make the Spurs scramble like Dallas did. If the PnR isn't going, I think the Thunder would run more iso plays, which they did often in the regular season with Jackson (although that may have been to Westbrook being out). I think Manu could do a good job on Jackson in the PnR, since he's a smart defender. But I don't like him one-on-one.

Our second unit bigs are just not that good defending the P&R... but again, I'm not that concerned about Reggie's penetration per-se, just more about what he opens up for them.


They have different skill-sets, but I think the biggest difference to their play styles is who they play with. Pop actually calls plays for Mills when he's out there with the second unit. That and transition are the two biggest ways that Pop makes use of Patty's speed. Pop almost never makes use of Green's size advantage (when he has it) or the skills Danny has from playing PF in college. We see them every so often, like in Game Six of the Dallas series where Danny just kept going inside against Ellis. Or Game Four of last year's WCSF where Green kept using his height advantage over Curry around the rim. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the offense needs to go toward Green post-ups. But I think overall, both Green and Mills have their pluses and minuses on offense.

Agreed. That's a big reason why I think a Green/Ginobili/Belinelli small group would work well against a Jackson/Fisher/Butler group.

FWIW, I have Green as the designated Westbrook defender. Just like Kawhi will probably try to match minutes with Durant. What that does is it hides Tony in Thabo, which might eventually cause Brooks to start Reggie instead of Thabo (and opens a completely different can of worms). I guess we'll address that when we get there :)

[superjames1992]

Bonner = Durant's Kryptonite, tbh.

[Kidd K]

Put Green on CP3 and Kawhi on Crawford tbh

Jamal Crawford or Joe Crawford? lol. Both can kill us tbh

[wildchild]

Some good things happen even in an ugly game..


Also passing
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Running the pick-and-roll
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