Would Pop play Danny more minutes if he was European?

[apalisoc_9]

Srs question..

It's frustrating how much Belli and Manu eats Danny's minutes..

Dude deserved 4-8 more minutes tonight tbh

[Malik Hairston]

:lol interesting question, tbh..

[superjames1992]

He played 27 minutes. Give it a rest. Marco and Manu had good games, anyways (well, at least the second half for Manu was great while stinking up the joint in the first).

These games of small ball are in some ways ideally suited for the Spurs' bench as the Spurs can go pretty deep at the guard position and Green/Ginobili/Belli/Kawhi can all get decent minutes.

Tonight, we had:

Kawhi: 39
Manu: 27
Green: 27
Belinelli: 16

Not a bad minutes distribution, tbqh, imo, fwiw...

[Malice]

We won, right?

[SupremeGuy]

If he had a couple more years under his belt, tbh.

[Mugen]

My nigga apalosic doin' the Lord's work tbh...Danny might have the shortest leash of the 9 man rotation....

[freetiago]

Manu had more minutes than Danny going into the 4th quarter and for the majority of it
it was around 18 for Danny and 24 for Manu when I checked
Ginobili should be the one getting 18 and Green 24-30

his shot was clearly going and Pop yanks him early
at the 6:50 mark in the 1st
he needs to leave him in if the shot is going and sub out if the shot isn't so he can get a bit of rest to guard Jackson

[Chinook]

Green had a plus-minus of 30, while no other Spur had one greater than 12. Why did hell didn't he play more?

[Chinook]

Manu had more minutes than Danny going into the 4th quarter and for the majority of it
it was around 18 for Danny and 24 for Manu when I checked
Ginobili should be the one getting 18 and Green 24-30

his shot was clearly going and Pop yanks him early
at the 6:50 mark in the 1st
he needs to leave him in if the shot is going and sub out if the shot isn't so he can get a bit of rest to guard Jackson

He benched Green at around the 9:20 mark in the third, which was much more egregious.

[apalisoc_9]

I don't mind manu playing the fourth since he got it going late in third..But he Sucked so bad from the 10 minute mark of the third till the 3 minute mark.

Why wasn't danny playing those minutes instead of Manu? I just don't get it...

[Mugen]

Beli played fine today but this isn't his series tbh. When OKC's best players are all currently on the perimeter, there's no excuse for your 2nd best perimeter defender to not play 35-40mins....

[pgardn]

Yes.

Provided he could dribble the Frkn ball.

Which he can't.

[Johnny RIngo]

He played 27 minutes. Give it a rest. Marco and Manu had good games, anyways (well, at least the second half for Manu was great while stinking up the joint in the first).

These games of small ball are in some ways ideally suited for the Spurs' bench as the Spurs can go pretty deep at the guard position and Green/Ginobili/Belli/Kawhi can all get decent minutes.

Tonight, we had:

Kawhi: 39
Manu: 27
Green: 27
Belinelli: 16

Not a bad minutes distribution, tbqh, imo, fwiw...

Marco shouldn't be getting more than 10 mins a game in this series. Give Green those 6 extra minutes imo.

[3 Legged Dog]

If Danny could dribble/penetrate (like pretty much every European EVER), he WOULD get more minutes

[3 Legged Dog]

I don't mind manu playing the fourth since he got it going late in third..But he Sucked so bad from the 10 minute mark of the third till the 3 minute mark.

Why wasn't danny playing those minutes instead of Manu? I just don't get it...

Pop is conditioning the team for when Danny disappears in games 6 and 7 of the finals, like last year, the team will be used to playing without him. Wise decision.

[Malik Hairston]

Pop is conditioning the team for when Danny disappears in games 6 and 7 of the finals, like last year, the team will be used to playing without him. Wise decision.

Pretty strange argument, blaming a role player after he was the best player in the Finals through the first 5 games, tbh:lol..

[Floyd Pacquiao]

OKC shot 2-16 against Danny.... let that sink in...

[$pursDynasty]

Marco shouldn't be getting more than 10 mins a game in this series. Give Green those 6 extra minutes imo.
amen, we need Danny's D way more than Marco's offense because you can throw a jersey on the court and it would play better defense than Belli. There isn't that big of a difference between Danny and Marco's offense but a large difference in their defensive ability

[Chinook]

OKC shot 2-16 against Danny.... let that sink in...

Exactly. I'll cover that more in tomorrow's thread. Danny was the best player on the floor.

[3 Legged Dog]

Pretty strange argument, blaming a role player after he was the best player in the Finals through the first 5 games, tbh:lol..
Look. I love it when Danny goes on a roll. But the sad fact is said "roll player" is a starter. Said "roll player" cannot dribble/penetrate worth a shit. Said "roll player" was 2 of 19 when it mattered most (in games 6 and 7). The problem was, which is lost on you, the series didn't end after 5 games.

[3 Legged Dog]

Pretty strange argument, blaming a role player after he was the best player in the Finals through the first 5 games, tbh:lol..
The more I think about it, the more your comment irks me. Danny Green's choking when it mattered most cost us a title last Summer. It may not bother you, but it sure as Hell bothers me.

was he very effective tonight? Yes. I'm glad. Should we advance, Will he not choke in this year's finals? I sure hope he doesn't. But the fact is..... He did choke in the 2013 finals. All the snarky comments in the world will NOT change that.

[3 Legged Dog]

OKC shot 2-16 against Danny.... let that sink in...

Hell of a stat, if true. Can Danny play D? Yes. Does that mean he should have played more than 27 minutes in a blow out win? Hard to say. I hope he rocks it like this for 7 more wins.

[DPG21920]

Danny hit some rough shots (that pull up 3's :lmao), but more importantly, he was a boss on Durant for stretches.

[Mugen]

:lol This is the first I've ever seen of 3 Legged Dog and I'm ready to put you in Top 3 of the Worst Posters on this board tbh.

[RD2191]

The more I think about it, the more your comment irks me. Danny Green's choking when it mattered most cost us a title last Summer. It may not bother you, but it sure as Hell bothers me.

was he very effective tonight? Yes. I'm glad. Should we advance, Will he not choke in this year's finals? I sure hope he doesn't. But the fact is..... He did choke in the 2013 finals. All the snarky comments in the world will NOT change that.

Lol

[Chinook]

:lol This is the first I've ever seen of 3 Legged Dog and I'm ready to put you in Top 3 of the Worst Posters on this board tbh.

:lol I originally thought he was he reincarnation of Paranoid Pop (if you remember that poster from last year), but now I'm pretty sure that's Baam. Don't think I've ever heard a good take from Dog. So I'm hoping that he's not Paranoid Pop, since that poster was a bro.

[still.focused]

Asidde from his man crush on Manu
I think he saw Manu starting to get his mojo in that 2nd half
And just chose to let him play and get him going
Similar to the way he let Green play garbage minutes in that last Portland loss

[3 Legged Dog]

You guys go on right on loving on Danny. I hope he comes through....., finally. Then you can all hold hands while roasting marshmallows while wearing your Danny Green jerseys. For now, I'm still pissed that he cost us a 5th title. You wanna gang up on me? Go ahead. I can take it. Clearly, my life doesn't revolve around posting many thousands of mundane posts on an internet thread.

for those of you who are mildly retarded, I'll say it again; Danny Green went 2 of 19 in games 6 and 7 of the 2013 NBA finals. His nuts shriveled up..... And crawled up into his body. In short, he had a mangina. Probably why you guys are so fond of him

[3 Legged Dog]

:lol This is the first I've ever seen of 3 Legged Dog and I'm ready to put you in Top 3 of the Worst Posters on this board tbh.
Thanks Mugen. That means a lot, coming from you. After all, you've almost got 10,000 comments. Pretty impressive.

[3 Legged Dog]

Yes.

Provided he could dribble the Frkn ball.

Which he can't.

funny how how you didn't get ripped for stating the obvious.

[Mugen]

You're welcome.

[DPG21920]

Shhhhhh, girl.

[pgardn]

Exactly. I'll cover that more in tomorrow's thread. Danny was the best player on the floor.

With all due respect I thought Danny had a very good game.
His defense on Lebron last year on breaks was amazing.
His D tonight was very good besides the one time he got completely lost.
He hit some 3s to get us started and some big shots in the 2nd half.

But Danny Green is never the best player on the floor in an NBA game. Even if he leads the team in scoring and steals.
The man cannot dribble. He is a very important part of our team though. Spurs man of the game... OK.

Durant
Westbrook
Parker
you take over...

[pgardn]

funny how how you didn't get ripped for stating the obvious.

I answered the original question.

I don't hate the guy because the Heat figured out to run him off the 3 point line.

[DMC]

Here's a better question: If the court was surrounded by water, how wet would Danny be from all his flybys on defense? I believe that's by design to force a hesitation from the shooter so help can come, or to force them off the 3 to a long 2, and it works a lot, but man it looks like bad defense to the untrained eye.

[pgardn]

Here's a better question: If the court was surrounded by water, how wet would Danny be from all his flybys on defense? I believe that's by design to force a hesitation from the shooter so help can come, or to force them off the 3 to a long 2, and it works a lot, but man it looks like bad defense to the untrained eye.

He did run way past on a few shots.
Good catch.

[SupremeGuy]

The more I think about it, the more your comment irks me. Danny Green's choking when it mattered most cost us a title last Summer. It may not bother you, but it sure as Hell bothers me.

was he very effective tonight? Yes. I'm glad. Should we advance, Will he not choke in this year's finals? I sure hope he doesn't. But the fact is..... He did choke in the 2013 finals. All the snarky comments in the world will NOT change that.This motherfucking is trolling right? Holy shit, you and testies should get a room and choke each other, tbh.

[Chinook]

With all due respect I thought Danny had a very good game.
His defense on Lebron last year on breaks was amazing.
His D tonight was very good besides the one time he got completely lost.
He hit some 3s to get us started and some big shots in the 2nd half.

But Danny Green is never the best player on the floor in an NBA game. Even if he leads the team in scoring and steals.
The man cannot dribble. He is a very important part of our team though. Spurs man of the game... OK.

Durant
Westbrook
Parker
you take over...

You're trying to split hairs right now. Saying someone is was the player of the game and saying someone was the best player on the floor for a game really are the same thing. I didn't say he was the most talented player, nor did I say he is in general the best player on the floor. But he did more on both ends than anyone else in the game, regardless of jersey. He played the best game, talent be damned.

And for the love of god, can you stop using the dribbling argument? He was fine in that regard this season. He led the team in FG% at the rim for most of the year, and he ran more successful PnRs than he ever did before. Sure, he's not some iso, cross-over And-1 type of player. But he can handle well enough to be a multi-dimensional offensive threat.

[pgardn]

You're trying to split hairs right now. Saying someone is was the player of the game and saying someone was the best player on the floor for a game really are the same thing. I didn't say he was the most talented player, nor did I say he is in general the best player on the floor. But he did more on both ends than anyone else in the game, regardless of jersey. He played the best game, talent be damned.

And for the love of god, can you stop using the dribbling argument? He was fine in that regard this season. He led the team in FG% at the rim for most of the year, and he ran more successful PnRs than he ever did before. Sure, he's not some iso, cross-over And-1 type of player. But he can handle well enough to be a multi-dimensional offensive threat.

I was being respectful. When one says best player on the floor it does not mean who had the best game given their perceived capabilities.

And no I will not stop with the dribbling thing. It amazes me that an NBA guard cannot dribble.

Can you name another guard in the NBA that handles the ball more poorly than Green? It's shocking. I will give you he has learned he is not to handle the ball. Pop utilizes him very well.

[Chinook]

Here's a better question: If the court was surrounded by water, how wet would Danny be from all his flybys on defense? I believe that's by design to force a hesitation from the shooter so help can come, or to force them off the 3 to a long 2, and it works a lot, but man it looks like bad defense to the untrained eye.

It looks bad, but it's one of the fundamental reasons why Green had an elite 3P% allowed this season (or at least according to Harlem). He closes out hard, which forces the shooter to put the ball on the floor, which, as we all know, dramatically lowers the shooting percentage of most players. It's not even a Green thing. Almost all the Spurs guards close out hard on three-point threats. Even though Sef isn't really a huge three-point threat, he is much more dangerous from out there than he is from inside the arc. That's why Green jump at him. It was part of the game-plan, and Danny executed that perfectly, because he was also able to get back into the play and contest the long-two.

When they aren't guarding a shooting threat (or it they're guarding a player who's as much or more of a threat to drive), Green and the others will close out softly, meaning they won't leave their feet and instead just try to stop in front of the shooter with their hand up. This obviously allows the defender to keep position, but it also is no where near as effective at defending the three as the hard closeout is. Pop picks and chooses which players he instructs the team to closeout hard on and which ones to closeout soft on. That's why the Spurs were jumping at Calderon in the Dallas series but not at Ellis.

[Splits]

Here's a better question: If the court was surrounded by water, how wet would Danny be from all his flybys on defense? I believe that's by design to force a hesitation from the shooter so help can come, or to force them off the 3 to a long 2, and it works a lot, but man it looks like bad defense to the untrained eye.

Obviously it is by design. If it weren't, Green would have been pulled the first time he did it to open the game, and not been on the court for the next 2 flybys in his opening stint. Open 3s, especially from the corners, is the last shot we want to give up. It might look bad but it is 100% coached, he's just doing what he's told.

[pgardn]

The flybys do exactly what DMC posted. Run off and or reset.

But not so much as to allow another 3 because you are in the stands.

[Chinook]

I was being respectful. When one says best player on the floor it does not mean who had the best game given their perceived capabilities.

And no I will not stop with the dribbling thing. It amazes me that an NBA guard cannot dribble.

Can you name another guard in the NBA that handles the ball more poorly than Green? It's shocking. I will give you he has learned he is not to handle the ball. Pop utilizes him very well.

That's just silly. Green had was the best player on the floor because he played the best game. He didn't get a handicap because of his 2K rating. He was incredibly efficient on offense, and he did so while also getting his own shot. He was also by far the best defender on the floor. Danny just flat-out balled tonight. It doesn't matter if he could dribble to your satisfaction or not. He just dominated the game.

You should stop with the dribbling thing since it's not accurate. He can dribble just fine for what he does. He can dribble around screens and run the PnR. He can bring the ball up the floor and pull up into a shot. That's pretty much all you need.

The last bit of your post is anecdotal. Green isn't particularly worst at dribbling than Mills or George Hill. He's certainly not worst than Tony Allen, and unlike Allen, Danny is an elite shooter. Can you believe how many guards are in the league who can't hit an outside shot?

[ElNono]

Here's a better question: If the court was surrounded by water, how wet would Danny be from all his flybys on defense? I believe that's by design to force a hesitation from the shooter so help can come, or to force them off the 3 to a long 2, and it works a lot, but man it looks like bad defense to the untrained eye.

It's a much more risky play than it looks. A seasoned vet like Fisher will likely draw a foul on more than one occasion, and with the new league penchant for 4-point plays, it can be a costly mistake.

[ElNono]

I liked Danny today. This team though has different players standing out at different times. Tony started with fury, then Tim took over. In the 3rd, Manu got the ball rolling, then Kawhi and Diaw punished them.

I didn't like the defense a whole lot overall, but I don't think they need more than some solid stretches to win this when the offense is clicking like today.

I don't expect Pop to change much of anything going into Game 2. Outside of foul trouble, I expect the minutes to be more or less the same. I mean, there might be some changes depending if Brooks throws some funky lineups out there, but overall, I think the Spurs can make them pay with almost any lineup.

[pgardn]

That's just silly. Green had was the best player on the floor because he played the best game. He didn't get a handicap because of his 2K rating. He was incredibly efficient on offense, and he did so while also getting his own shot. He was also by far the best defender on the floor. Danny just flat-out balled tonight. It doesn't matter if he could dribble to your satisfaction or not. He just dominated the game.

You should stop with the dribbling thing since it's not accurate. He can dribble just fine for what he does. He can dribble around screens and run the PnR. He can bring the ball up the floor and pull up into a shot. That's pretty much all you need.

The last bit of your post is anecdotal. Green isn't particularly worst at dribbling than Mills or George Hill. He's certainly not worst than Tony Allen, and unlike Allen, Danny is an elite shooter. Can you believe how many guards are in the league who can't hit an outside shot?

The dribbling thing is entirely accurate imo as all of this is opinion.
NONE the guards you mentioned dribble worse than Green. None.
Green cannot bring the ball up the court under any type of pressure.
He is also very poor dribbling on the break.

Yes Tony Allen may have one of the worst jump shots for a guard.

What you have failed to see is that a Green is told to give the ball up much more THIS year.
Because he is the worst dribbling guard this poster has seen in the NBA for the period he has played in the league. Props to Pop for utilizing him so well.

[ElNono]

yeah, I would buy Hill and Allen... but Mills is miles better handling the ball than Danny... and I love Danny.

[Chinook]

The dribbling thing is entirely accurate imo as all of this is opinion.
NONE the guards you mentioned dribble worse than Green. None.

Yes Tony Allen may have one of the worst jump shots for a guard.

What you have failed to see is that a Green is told to give the ball up much more THIS year.
Because he is the worst dribbling guard this poster has seen.

:lol Danny's been told to give up the ball more this season, BECAUSE he's the worst dribbling guard you've seen? Let's ignore the fact that his usage rate didn't change at all from last season to this season.

The rest, as I said, is anecdotal. Your whole argument is based on you saying, "Green's dribbling is horrible, I swear!" No way to even discuss this with that point of view.

[pgardn]

yeah, I would buy Hill and Allen... but Mills is miles better handling the ball than Danny... and I love Danny.

There is no way Danny Green could play point in the NBA. Hill manages it very poorly. Allen can drive to the bucket with more than one dribble.

Honestly I have not seen worse in the NBA. It's all opinion but I would steadfastly disagree with all mentioned so far.

[Chinook]

It's a much more risky play than it looks. A seasoned vet like Fisher will likely draw a foul on more than one occasion, and with the new league penchant for 4-point plays, it can be a costly mistake.

I think soft close-outs are bigger risks for fouls than hard ones. Green flies past his man on a hard close out. It's not easy for a shooter to move over in time to catch the contact, especially since Green jumps past people so much that he's pretty good at it. On soft closeouts, the defender is trying to stay in front of the shooter with a hand up, which leads to mistakes where the defender is out of control and gets into the shooter's space. Paul's horrible foul on Westbrook is an example of a soft closeout gone wrong. You won't see many examples of four-point plays from hard closeouts, though, since fouls usually result in the defender colliding with the shooter before they can get a clean shot off.

[ElNono]

It's ok, you don't need every player to do everything great. Danny does really well certain things and he has been getting even better at some of those (like his defense).

Kawhi, for example, is lacking some solid footwork on a consistent basis. His first step should be much better, and today's spin move was more of a shock because if he can work his feet like that all the time, he'll be a monster.

As long as players keep putting in work, and keep getting better, there's not a lot to complain, IMO. I expect Green to work on his handles and Kawhi on his footwork. These are young guys that still have room to grow.

[RD2191]

Green would be a borderline all star if he could dribble. The Spurs would also not be able to afford him. So I'm kind of glad that he can't dribble.

[pgardn]

:lol Danny's been told to give up the ball more this season, BECAUSE he's the worst dribbling guard you've seen? Let's ignore the fact that his usage rate didn't change at all from last season to this season.

The rest, as I said, is anecdotal. Your whole argument is based on you saying, "Green's dribbling is horrible, I swear!" No way to even discuss this with that point of view.

Usage and actually dribbling the ball are two entirely different things.
Don't play me for stupid. And there was nothing anecdotal, when did I say, did you see when... I saw him... You don't even know what at anecdotal means.

IMO Danny Green is the worst guard at dribbling I have seen. I have not seen some deep bench guys so it would have to be as a starter. IMO Lebron James is the best player in the NBA.

Whats the problem? This is all opinion.

[G-Dawgg]

Pop would probably play Danny more if he was European because if Danny was European, he'd probably have a higher IQ for the game and better fundamental skills like dribbling and passing....

[ElNono]

I think soft close-outs are bigger risks for fouls than hard ones. Green flies past his man on a hard close out. It's not easy for a shooter to move over in time to catch the contact, especially since Green jumps past people so much that he's pretty good at it. On soft closeouts, the defender is trying to stay in front of the shooter with a hand up, which leads to mistakes where the defender is out of control and gets into the shooter's space. Paul's horrible foul on Westbrook is an example of a soft closeout gone wrong. You won't see many examples of four-point plays from hard closeouts, though, since fouls usually result in the defender colliding with the shooter before they can get a clean shot off.

I would disagree, just my opinion though. Blocking spot up shots at the point of release is extremely rare, and I think the shooter will get the benefit of the doubt most of the time. What's more, he's out of control jumping in the air. A seasoned shooter only needs to pretend to shoot and basically lean towards where he's landing. It's just too easy a call to make.

Sure, just putting a hand up sometimes ends up with a touch foul, but it's largely how every shot is contested in the league. I think that's what Pop wants in general.

[Splits]

Green would be a borderline all star if he could dribble. The Spurs would also not be able to afford him. So I'm kind of glad that he can't dribble.

:lol solid take actually

[pgardn]

Hell I love Green.

He has done everything the hard way.

[Chinook]

Usage and actually dribbling the ball are two entirely different things.
Don't play me for stupid. And there was nothing anecdotal, when did I say, did you see when... I saw him... You don't even know what at anecdotal means.

IMO Danny Green is the worst guard at dribbling I have seen. I have not seen some deep bench guys so it would have to be as a starter. IMO Lebron James is the best player in the NBA.

Whats the problem? This is all opinion.


Perhaps anecdotal isn't the appropriate word for my critique, at least not yet. Subjective is probably better for now.

There's no problem with you having your opinion. I agree with plenty of posters on this site on many things, I still respect most of them. The problem is that there's no real way of having a discourse with someone who just cites their own opinion. It just turns into a, "Yes he is. No he's not." thing. That's even more true when you insist on ignoring the changes to Green's game from last season to this season. If you're going to keep on believing what you believe regardless of what I say, what's the point of discussing it?

[pgardn]

Perhaps anecdotal isn't the appropriate word for my critique, at least not yet. Subjective is probably better for now.

There's no problem with you having your opinion. I agree with plenty of posters on this site on many things, I still respect most of them. The problem is that there's no real way of having a discourse with someone who just cites their own opinion. It just turns into a, "Yes he is. No he's not." thing. That's even more true when you insist on ignoring the changes to Green's game from last season to this season. If you're going to keep on believing what you believe regardless of what I say, what's the point of discussing it?

Its called agreeing to disagree and it is done quite often on a sports board in which so much is opinion.

Heck yes it's subjective. That's what makes it interesting. I am sure there are OKC fans who think Durant is the best player in the NBA. I don't.

[Chinook]

I would disagree, just my opinion though. Blocking spot up shots at the point of release is extremely rare, and I think the shooter will get the benefit of the doubt most of the time. What's more, he's out of control jumping in the air. A seasoned shooter only needs to pretend to shoot and basically lean towards where he's landing. It's just too easy a call to make.

Sure, just putting a hand up sometimes ends up with a touch foul, but it's largely how every shot is contested in the league. I think that's what Pop wants in general.

Green's not trying to block a shot when he's closing out hard. I'm sure he'd take a block if he got one, but the goal is literally to force the defender to pump-fake and move inside the arch. I don't think he's particularly out of control either, as he very rarely fouls when flying past. That's especially true for tonight where his closeouts were perfect. He both ran Thabo off the line and got back to contest the long-two. You can't ask for a better result than that. Shooters sometimes try to draw fouls on defenders closing out hard by kicking their legs out to catch the defenders as they fly by, but as you know, the league is trying to outlaw that.

I disagree with you about how teams defend shots. The biggest way teams guard shooters is by moving them off their spots. That's why players like Green close out hard. That's why players try to deny deep post positions. That's why players try to force their men to go away from their dominant sides. It's all about having the shooter shoot from spots at which they haven't really practiced. It's also about rushing their attempts by making them shoot more on the move. Sure, the end result may be a hand in the face, but shot defense is much more complicated than the end result.

[Chinook]

Its called agreeing to disagree and it is done quite often on a sports board in which so much is opinion.

Heck yes it's subjective. That's what makes it interesting. I am sure there are OKC fans who think Durant is the best player in the NBA. I don't.

Agreeing to disagree is perfectly fine. We can certainly agree to do that here. But that pretty much ends a discussion. If you're debating a person, you both just agree to disagree, do you keep on discussing it?

[pgardn]

Agreeing to disagree is perfectly fine. We can certainly agree to do that here. But that pretty much ends a discussion. If you're debating a person, you both just agree to disagree, do you keep on discussing it?

I could go into anecdotal situations of my choosing and you could choose your highlight. there might be some super advanced stat that shows dribble per minute played and turnovers per minute and correlate it. But I doubt it. It's subjective as you said.

seriously the reason I wrote something so bold that is subjective is because I think I have a feel for how uncomfortable certain players appear when they have to dribble. It's something I sense from just playing and watching. Just like you can sense when crunch time comes some players try to hide... They almost seem to make themselves unavailable. So it is clearly possible I am way off. Pretty hard to quantify. That's why people watch film I guess. Not everything can be described with stats.

We WON.

Thats all I really care about.

I'm out.

[ElNono]

Green's not trying to block a shot when he's closing out hard. I'm sure he'd take a block if he got one, but the goal is literally to force the defender to pump-fake and move inside the arch. I don't think he's particularly out of control either, as he very rarely fouls when flying past. That's especially true for tonight where his closeouts were perfect. He both ran Thabo off the line and got back to contest the long-two. You can't ask for a better result than that. Shooters sometimes try to draw fouls on defenders closing out hard by kicking their legs out to catch the defenders as they fly by, but as you know, the league is trying to outlaw that.

I'll just agree to disagree. I think he is trying to block a shot, and I also think he does fly pretty much out of control, especially when he's late. Now, I don't particularly think Thabo or Butler are guys that would worry me trying to draw a foul, but Durant and Fisher (especially Fish) do. About the unorthodoxy part, Manu had this knack early in his career for trying to block shooter from behind (not that uncommon in Europe), and even when sometimes he would get a clean stop or two, he'll get whistled for it anyways. I see this somewhat in the same vein. The shooter will likely get the benefit of the doubt, especially when the defender is seemingly somewhat out of control.


I disagree with you about how teams defend shots. The biggest way teams guard shooters is by moving them off their spots. That's why players like Green close out hard. That's why players try to deny deep post positions. That's why players try to force their men to go away from their dominant sides. It's all about having the shooter shoot from spots at which they haven't really practiced. It's also about rushing their attempts by making them shoot more on the move. Sure, the end result may be a hand in the face, but shot defense is much more complicated than the end result.

What you're telling me here is "doing your work early". But that isn't this scenario. We're talking about closing out on a spot up shooter that's relatively open due to help defense. The problem with closing out of control like that was seen clearly today when Fish did a pump fake, took a step to his left, and then took a wide open shot. It's a gamble that might fool some guys, but seasoned players won't fall for that. When Danny is in a better position to close, he won't jump like that. He will put his hand up and contest the shot. Which is all Pop really wants.

[capek]

Green had a plus-minus of 30, while no other Spur had one greater than 12. Why did hell didn't he play more?

My personal thought is that it's a strategic move by Pop. One aspect of being an NBA player (particularly a "great" one like a Westbrick-type), is that you can adapt quickly to any given situation. Hence there being so much talk about switching up the way you defend a Westbrick or a Duraunt, so that they can't get comfortable going against only one type of look. So I think it's that principle that explains the way Pop uses Green, the idea being that he can be made to be even more effective if Westbrick isn't playing against him every minute of the game. And there's two added benefits to that strategy: 1) Your top defender gets maximum rest to have maximum energy to defend the other team's best player, and 2) it allows good offensive players more court time to increase the chance they'll get in a good offensive rhythm.

So it boils down to a cost/benefit analysis:

Is (the increased effectiveness you gain by not letting the opposing star get used to your best defender's defense) + (giving your top defender maximum rest to have maximum energy to go against the opposing team's best player) + (giving more minutes to very good shooters/playmakers to give them more chances to get in a rhythm) > (having one of your best defenders on the court for all of those minutes). The answer tonight has to be Yes, doesn't it? And doesn't your intuition agree that it's more logical to go with the first part of the equation every time? Mine certainly does.

[Chinook]

What you're telling me here is "doing your work early". But that isn't this scenario. We're talking about closing out on a spot up shooter that's relatively open due to help defense. The problem with closing out of control like that was seen clearly today when Fish did a pump fake, took a step to his left, and then took a wide open shot. It's a gamble that might fool some guys, but seasoned players won't fall for that. When Danny is in a better position to close, he won't jump like that. He will put his hand up and contest the shot. Which is all Pop really wants.

I'm not just talking about doing your work early. That's part of it, but that's not the only part. As I said in the part of my post you quoted, there are many ways defenders try to get their men off their spots, and closing out hard is one of them. You seem to think that Fisher pump-faking, moving and shooting means he wasn't affected by the closeout. But that's not true. The moment a spot-up shooter has to dribble, their expected shooting percentage drops. Basketball is a really precise art, and little things like having to move or having to re-calibrate your shot because you're a foot or two over make a huge difference. That's actually how you defend shooters. Hands in the face don't really affect shooters in their sweet spots, because they've practiced shots from those spots so much that they know where the rim is. But when a player has to shoot from somewhere they weren't expecting to shoot, they have to see the rim to adjust, which is why the hand in the face is effective.

If Pop wanted soft closes, he'd ask for them. Green closed out softly on Ellis throughout the Dallas series. It's not a matter of discipline. Soft closeouts do not disrupt a shooter's rhythm like hard closeouts do.

[ElNono]

I'm not just talking about doing your work early. That's part of it, but that's not the only part. As I said in the part of my post you quoted, there are many ways defenders try to get their men off their spots, and closing out hard is one of them. You seem to think that Fisher pump-faking, moving and shooting means he wasn't affected by the closeout. But that's not true. The moment a spot-up shooter has to dribble, their expected shooting percentage drops. Basketball is a really precise art, and little things like having to move or having to re-calibrate your shot because you're a foot or two over make a huge difference. That's actually how you defend shooters. Hands in the face don't really affect shooters in their sweet spots, because they've practiced shots from those spots so much that they know where the rim is. But when a player has to shoot from somewhere they weren't expecting to shoot, they have to see the rim to adjust, which is why the hand in the face is effective.

If Pop wanted soft closes, he'd ask for them. Green closed out softly on Ellis throughout the Dallas series. It's not a matter of discipline. Soft closeouts do not disrupt a shooter's rhythm like hard closeouts do.

Not all shooters are cut from the same cloth. Great, seasoned shooters will hit from almost anywhere. That's why I stressed guys like Fisher (from 3) or Durant, or, say, Ray Allen. Preferred spots work for mechanical shooters, but not so much for great shooters.

About hand in the face, Pop said it himself: "Contested shots are really bad shots. People’s percentage goes down almost by 20, almost without exception."

I also don't think it's "soft-close" vs "hard-close". Nobody else on this team jumps on shooters as often as Danny does. You can close hard without jumping on them, and I'm pretty sure Pop asks for the same thing when defending certain players.

[ElNono]

BTW, I have no complains about Danny. He does great 90% of the time on defense, which is amongst the best in the team. We're just really discussing areas where I feel he needs to improve, and I think he will improve.

[Chinook]

Not all shooters are cut from the same cloth. Great, seasoned shooters will hit from almost anywhere. That's why I stressed guys like Fisher (from 3) or Durant, or, say, Ray Allen. Preferred spots work for mechanical shooters, but not so much for great shooters.

About hand in the face, Pop said it himself: "Contested shots are really bad shots. People’s percentage goes down almost by 20, almost without exception."

I also don't think it's "soft-close" vs "hard-close". Nobody else on this team jumps on shooters as often as Danny does. You can close hard without jumping on them, and I'm pretty sure Pop asks for the same thing when defending certain players.

No. Great shooters know how to get to their spots. Sure, they have more spots than other players, but they aren't just gods no matter where they shoot. Players become successful shooters by practicing. Practicing essentially develops muscle memory so that the player don't have to think about how much force and arch they have to put into a given shot attempt. But that memory only works when the shooter is in the right spot. Otherwise, the player has to actually think about how to shoot, and it becomes much harder. Shooting is the same thing as launching artillery from a physical standpoint. A person can figure out exactly how much force it takes to hit a target with a ton of precision. But move the target (or the artillery in this case) and the calculations have to do done over.

Did Pop say he meant contested to only mean hand-in-the-face? He may have. Even so, that's more something you should be critiquing. Great players will hit their shots even with hands in their face. But they won't be nearly as accurate away from their sweet spots.

You can hard-close without jumping. But it's less effective. Matt Barnes just runs past his man with his hand up. That still leaves an angle to shoot the ball, though, and Barnes is still out of position by the end of it. The way Green jumps, there isn't room to get the shot off. It's not that Green doesn't know how to close out correctly. It's that he knows exactly how to do it to force the player to put the ball on the floor. I know it's a surprise to some people here, but Green's actually a very smart defender. His numbers don't just come from blind luck or from monkey-balling that happens to be cleaned up by his teammates. He knows how to play his men very well, and he knows how to force his man to dribble.

Can hard closeouts backfire? Yes. They force a rotation that smart teams can exploit. But soft closeouts backfire in that they don't actually allow impede a shot. Each of the four threes that Miami attempted in the last 28 seconds of Game Six were soft closes. Allen's dagger against Brooklyn last week was off a horrible weak close by Johnson where he both got out of position and failed to impede the arch of the shot.

[ElNono]

No. Great shooters know how to get to their spots. Sure, they have more spots than other players, but they aren't just gods no matter where they shoot. Players become successful shooters by practicing. Practicing essentially develops muscle memory so that the player don't have to think about how much force and arch they have to put into a given shot attempt. But that memory only works when the shooter is in the right spot. Otherwise, the player has to actually think about how to shoot, and it becomes much harder. Shooting is the same thing as launching artillery from a physical standpoint. A person can figure out exactly how much force it takes to hit a target with a ton of precision. But move the target (or the artillery in this case) and the calculations have to do done over.

Did Pop say he meant contested to only mean hand-in-the-face? He may have. Even so, that's more something you should be critiquing. Great players will hit their shots even with hands in their face. But they won't be nearly as accurate away from their sweet spots.

You can hard-close without jumping. But it's less effective. Matt Barnes just runs past his man with his hand up. That still leaves an angle to shoot the ball, though, and Barnes is still out of position by the end of it. The way Green jumps, there isn't room to get the shot off. It's not that Green doesn't know how to close out correctly. It's that he knows exactly how to do it to force the player to put the ball on the floor. I know it's a surprise to some people here, but Green's actually a very smart defender. His numbers don't just come from blind luck or from monkey-balling that happens to be cleaned up by his teammates. He knows how to play his men very well, and he knows how to force his man to dribble.

Can hard closeouts backfire? Yes. They force a rotation that smart teams can exploit. But soft closeouts backfire in that they don't actually allow impede a shot. Each of the four threes that Miami attempted in the last 28 seconds of Game Six were soft closes. Allen's dagger against Brooklyn last week was off a horrible weak close by Johnson where he both got out of position and failed to impede the arch of the shot.

Disagree. Moving one step to the left or right isn't going to change one iota the 'calculations' for any seasoned shooter. Like you said, for great shooters it's all about muscle memory and how much force they need to put on the shot depending where on the court they're shooting from. Short corner three, three at the top, etc. No shooter shots 100% though, that's why even the best shooter can and will miss sometimes (even wide open).

I think our discussion boils down to: Danny is too jump happy contesting shots for my taste. You think it's "controlled" most of (or all) the time, whereas I don't necessarily think that's the case a good chunk of times. We don't agree on that, I'm fine with that.

I don't think his defensive prowess is dumb luck at all, I actually think he's got one of the best defensive footwork in the league. He's also a high energy defensive player.

[will_spurs]

I'll have to side with ElNono on that one. I noticed as well than when Green is a bit late, he tends to sprint and jump wildly in the direction of the shooter, and if he misses his target horribly after a pump-fake, he's even coming back from behind in an even more uncontrolled way. OKC players haven't been savvy enough to take advantage of that in Game 1, but that might not last and/or the refs might easily be fooled, especially if they are looking forward to calling a foul on that play (think Clippers-OKC game 5).

Somehow we know that if this happened in the clutch of a tight game, a guy like Westbrook would just jump-fake/hip-check an out of control jumping Green and get 3 free thows (or even a 4-point play), just the same way Batum got a 4-point play off Manu's out of control attempt to close out in the 3rd quarter of Game 4 during the last series.

[Twisted_Dawg]

:lol This is the first I've ever seen of 3 Legged Dog and I'm ready to put you in Top 3 of the Worst Posters on this board tbh.

3 Legged Dog has been a hard core, pipe swinging fan since 1974. He pisses silver and black. He has paid his dues and earned his right to voice his opinion. Danny sadly did go flat in games 6 & 7 in last years finals. That was a factor in our losing the last two games and the title. But the majority of the blame should go to Pop for his stupidity in game 6 and letting Manu play out of fucking control the whole goddamn series.

[Twisted_Dawg]

The more I think about it, the more your comment irks me. Danny Green's choking when it mattered most cost us a title last Summer. It may not bother you, but it sure as Hell bothers me. Was he very effective tonight? Yes. I'm glad. Should we advance, Will he not choke in this year's finals? I sure hope he doesn't. But the fact is..... He did choke in the 2013 finals. All the snarky comments in the world will NOT change that.


This motherfucking is trolling right? Holy shit, you and testies should get a room and choke each other, tbh.

Nope, he is not trolling. He beleives what he says.

[manufan10]

I think Green was yanked in the 3rd because the offense had become stagnant. It wasn't because of anything Green did, but what he can't do well. Attack the rim, and help move the ball. Ginobili also started scoring, so it's not like he was ineffective and turning the ball over.

[Twisted_Dawg]

Will_Spurs:
Who is Ms. Nip on your sig? Looks like a young Brooke Burke.

[Jimcs50]

Green played some super defense last night

[TheGreatYacht]

If Danny could dribble/penetrate (like pretty much every European EVER), he WOULD get more minutes
De Culo can't dribble. And Manu has about 35% of his turnovers come from the ball bouncing off his foot

[TheGreatYacht]

The more I think about it, the more your comment irks me. Danny Green's choking when it mattered most cost us a title last Summer. It may not bother you, but it sure as Hell bothers me.

was he very effective tonight? Yes. I'm glad. Should we advance, Will he not choke in this year's finals? I sure hope he doesn't. But the fact is..... He did choke in the 2013 finals. All the snarky comments in the world will NOT change that.
The man is a role player who broke the Finals 3pt record... Yet your stupid ass brain can't comprehend that the one who did the choking was Mr. Turnobili himself 14 turnovers in Games 6 & 7

[will_spurs]

Will_Spurs:
Who is Ms. Nip on your sig? Looks like a young Brooke Burke.

Blagovesta Bonbonova.

[3 Legged Dog]

I answered the original question.

I don't hate the guy because the Heat figured out to run him off the 3 point line.

I don't hate him either. But he did choke and he did cost us a title. Being "chased off the line" is one thing. Going 2 for 19 in games 6 and 7 is quite another.

i hope he rains 3s for 7 more wins.

[3 Legged Dog]

The man is a role player who broke the Finals 3pt record... Yet your stupid ass brain can't comprehend that the one who did the choking was Mr. Turnobili himself 14 turnovers in Games 6 & 7

Look, bitch. I fully comprehend that Manu and Pop also choked. But as your inbred, ugly, illiterate ass cannot comprehend......This thread wasn't about them. It was about Green. So Fuck off.

[Skull-1]

Srs question..

It's frustrating how much Belli and Manu eats Danny's minutes..

Dude deserved 4-8 more minutes tonight tbh

Perhaps you should be asking: Would Pop play Manu fewer minutes if he was an American?

[doldrums]

xenophobia Part 20

[Skull-1]

xenophobia Part 20


Stupid Comment: Part 21.

[mudyez]

Marco Belinelli -2

[TheGreatYacht]

Bump.

Belinelli on the court is a fucking joke. Belinelli guarding Durant is a joke. Belinelli guarding Wade is a fucking joke.

Play Green more minutes