The Leonard and Green duo

[timtonymanu]

Definitely underrated.

[wtgspurs]

sex

[Malik Hairston]

It doesn't make any sense that they don't receive widespread recognition for their defense, tbh..2 of the 3 best defensive players on a top-ranked defense, there isn't a duo that can defend as well as them in the league right now IMO..

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Best 1-2 defensive combo in the league, underrated offensively aswell

[Mugen]

See my American Blacks thread tbh..........

[100%duncan]

https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/10174803_10202122918974380_7786678364873198034_n.j pg

[MI21]

Green +30 tonight.

[capek]

It doesn't make any sense that they don't receive widespread recognition for their defense, tbh..2 of the 3 best defensive players on a top-ranked defense, there isn't a duo that can defend as well as them in the league right now IMO..

Makes perfect sense. They play on the Spurs. :(

[testies]

I hope someone talks about Green's defense

I hope he doesn't get jealous of all the Kawhi love in the media

Danny is our best defender imo

Kawhi is much better on offense tho

[look_at_g_shred]

It doesn't make any sense that they don't receive widespread recognition for their defense, tbh..2 of the 3 best defensive players on a top-ranked defense, there isn't a duo that can defend as well as them in the league right now IMO..
but...but..his defense is overrated :depressed

[Malik Hairston]

but...but..his defense is overrated :depressed

Kawhi's individual defense is definitely overrated..he's arguably the best perimeter disruptor in the league, though, he gets his hands on any ball in his vicinity..

[apalisoc_9]

Leonard gets credit, maybe not enough since he won't make an All Defensive team..

Danny though will never get credit..He's always going to be known as a really good defender by all these Black idiot Analyst..

It's just doesn\t work with Danny cause Leonard already gets the recognition as the best defender in the team and upcoming star and you always have to talk about the Big 3...not really enough room to talk about Danny.

[SupremeGuy]

Best defensive 1-2 punch in the league.

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

Kawhi's transition/semi-transition game has improved so much, and ball-handing did too. I remember that up until the end of last season, he looked really bad every time he handled the ball.

[FromWayDowntown]

Whether they're underrated or not, their growth over the last 2 playoff runs would seem to make a huge difference to how the Spurs matchup with OKC in a playoff series. Green appeared so shook by this environment 2 years ago that he basically evaporated and barely played after game 4. If he can stay on the floor and at least give the Spurs his defensive effort, it makes a huge difference against this team. Leonard was much more poised and ready to play on the big stage 2 years ago, but he's undoubtedly a better player now than he was then and he seems to be so much, much more confident about pretty much every aspect of the game. We'll see how that all plays out, but I thought they both played strong, confident games in Game 1, particularly on the defensive end.

[HI-FI]

Whether they're underrated or not, their growth over the last 2 playoff runs would seem to make a huge difference to how the Spurs matchup with OKC in a playoff series. Green appeared so shook by this environment 2 years ago that he basically evaporated and barely played after game 4. If he can stay on the floor and at least give the Spurs his defensive effort, it makes a huge difference against this team. Leonard was much more poised and ready to play on the big stage 2 years ago, but he's undoubtedly a better player now than he was then and he seems to be so much, much more confident about pretty much every aspect of the game. We'll see how that all plays out, but I thought they both played strong, confident games in Game 1, particularly on the defensive end.
basically this.

[spurraider21]

Green and Leonard have basically become everything we were hoping for from Bogans and Udoka and more :lol

[ceperez]

Green and Leonard have basically become everything we were hoping for from Bogans and Udoka and more :lol

No wonder we couldn't win anything then!

[ceperez]

Kawhi's individual defense is definitely overrated..he's arguably the best perimeter disruptor in the league, though, he gets his hands on any ball in his vicinity..

If anyone is a guaranteed stopper against small guards, it's Leonard. Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

Green despite being very good, can't affect Westbrook.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

If anyone is a guaranteed stopper against small guards, it's Leonard. Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

Green despite being very good, can't affect Westbrook.

Kawhi has a history of being lit up by smaller, quick guards, Green is much better than him. Kawhi is better guarding the bigger, bulkier types.

[SupremeGuy]

Best defensive 1-2 punch in the league.Damn straight, homie! :toast

[Raven]

Kawhi has a history of being lit up by smaller, quick guards, Green is much better than him. Kawhi is better guarding the bigger, bulkier types.

Thazs funny coz its the opposite..

[Fireball]

Thazs funny coz its the opposite..

its not, Kawhi looked bad against Lillard & Co. ... even against James Harden ... I prefer Green guarding these types of players

[Raven]

its not, Kawhi looked bad against Lillard & Co. ... even against James Harden ... I prefer Green guarding these types of players

damn i quoted the wrong message, i wanted to quote the one above yours. damned phone...

[Fireball]

damn i quoted the wrong message, i wanted to quote the one above yours. damned phone...

ah, ok ... no problem

[KL2]

If anyone is a guaranteed stopper against small guards, it's Leonard. Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

Green despite being very good, can't affect Westbrook.


Usually it's the opposite, although I've seen Leonard do great on guys like Cp3 before.

Green was getting bullied out there, WB is a stocky guy and was going right at him. Same thing happened last year's Finals against Miami with Green guarding Wade.

Leonard on the other hand is probably the 2nd biggest SF behind LBJ in the NBA, he used his strength to body up WB and prevent him from penetrating and creating separation.

Green was doing solid on KD too. That's actually a great defensive match up, Green on KD, Leonard on WB. I noticed KD can struggle at times against guards like Green and T. Allen (both defensive minded guards, same height), he has a tendency to put the ball down and get it stripped or stolen by quicker players.

[wildchild]

Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

Agree. I've said before Kawhi didn't allow Westbrook get many looks in paint -his penetration killed us in previous games, in game 4, he was 6-of-8 in the paint- holding him to only 1/2 shots at the rim. Plus, Westbrook got up just 12 shots in all game.
But I missed about offensive rebounds, turnovers, etc...

As this guy (PtR) said:

The brilliant play of the Spurs in the Western Conference Finals was yet another example of the genius of Gregg Popovich. He made headlines in Game 5 when he placed Matt Bonner in the starting lineup to help space the floor and open up driving lanes, relegating Tiago Splitter to a backup role, coming off the bench for Tim Duncan. But that wasn't his most important rearrangement of the chess pieces on the NBA court, the pivotal move had to be using Kawhi Leonard to defend Russell Westbrook.
...In the first half of game five, Kawhi's defense on Westbrook did not look good, Russ just seemed too quick off the dribble for Kawhi. In the second half, Leonard made an adjustment that had Popovich written all over it. He backed off of Westbrook and gave him the deep, low percentage jumper if he wanted it.
This proved extremely effective as Westbrook ended up going 5-of-9 from the field and 1-of-4 from the three point line in Game 5.
In Game 6, Kawhi really settled in against Westbrook. Russell went 8-for-23 and only managed to make one three pointer....
The most impressive aspect of the matchup between Kawhi and Westbrook was the serious problems he caused for Westbrook trying to pass the ball to his teammates. Westbrook turned the ball over seven times in Game 6, after having just 15 in the previous 5 games.
But perhaps even more important was the way Kawhi kept Westbrook off the offensive glass. After getting nine offensive rebounds through the first four games, Westbrook was shut out in games 5 and 6. That's a crucial adjustment in a series where the team who won the rebound battle won every game..."
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/6/3/5772366/nba-playoffs-spurs-thunder-popovich-hidden-adjustment

[wildchild]

Green-Leonard = the best perimeter defensive duo in the league, better than Conley-Allen, Deng-Buttler (before until Deng got traded) or Thompson-Iguodala (Klay defense isn't at an elite level)

These two guys complement each other perfectly, exploit each other's strengths and complimenting their weaknesses.

[Fireball]

I explicitly did not mention Westbrook because I remembered Leonard stopping him pretty well ... so he is an exception regarding quick PGs ...but he is also taller than most PGs which makes it more logic for Leonard to guard him

[spursparker9]

:lol Remember when just signed Udoka and Bowen was still on the team and suddenly there are 2 great perimeter defensive players.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I explicitly did not mention Westbrook because I remembered Leonard stopping him pretty well ... so he is an exception regarding quick PGs ...but he is also taller than most PGs which makes it more logic for Leonard to guard him

Not only tall and athletic, but very strong too, that's why Leonard does a bit better on him, but Green is the guy for the Lillard, Curry, Ellis types.

[ginobilized]

Their defense will be challenged like never before this season.

Defending the title will be the ultimate goal. Pop will push these guys to improve on last year's heroics.
But, yeah, this is a tremendous one-two punch defensively. As strange as this might sound, reminds me of Jordan and Pippen pairing defensively. Kawhi being more Jordanesque with his strength. Or maybe Dennis Johnson/Reggie Lewis, too. DJ was so smart though, Danny Green has a ways to go in that dept.

It looked like DG has figured out a few things personally in his game and in terms of his role on the team. He was spectacular at times in the playoffs. They are already near or at the top of the league defensively and have a LOT of room to grow.

[baseline bum]

Still can't believe how little credit Green gets for destroying Wade in the Finals. All the media wants to do is say Wade is washed up, but he looked pretty strong in the playoffs up until the Finals. And call the guy washed up, but he had a monster Game 7 in the 2013 Finals.

[Fireball]

Their defense will be challenged like never before this season.

Good thing is that Leonard is not satisfied with 1 title and will do everything to improve ... and for Green its a contract year (is it not?), so he will not slow down as well, although he might try to force it on offense a little more

[Chinook]

If anyone is a guaranteed stopper against small guards, it's Leonard. Leonard or Westbrook is the key reason why the Spurs won against the Thunder. Westbrook's efficiency just drops even if his attempts don't.

Green despite being very good, can't affect Westbrook.

Damn it. Not this again. Green was significantly better on Russ in the WCF. I took the time to quantify the whole thing so people wouldn't make these types of statements. Pop switched Leonard on Westbrook anticipating a 1/3 PnR (meaning Kawhi would get Durant). Brooks countered with isos, which Westbrook won easily (but kept passing out instead of challenging Duncan for some reason) and Durant post-ups which became less and less effective as time went on.

Kawhi's Game Five versus Westbrook was relatively nice (14 points on 13 possessions), but it was still well below what Green (and Parker) held him to for the series. The Thunder offense main stalled because they stopped running their best play, and because neither Durant nor Ibaka could dominate their match-ups.

Plus, Westbrook is 6-6. He's not a small guard at all.

[wildchild]

Damn it. Not this again. Green was significantly better on Russ in the WCF. I took the time to quantify the whole thing so people wouldn't make these types of statements. Pop switched Leonard on Westbrook anticipating a 1/3 PnR (meaning Kawhi would get Durant). Brooks countered with isos, which Westbrook won easily (but kept passing out instead of challenging Duncan for some reason) and Durant post-ups which became less and less effective as time went on.

Kawhi's Game Five versus Westbrook was relatively nice (14 points on 13 possessions), but it was still well below what Green (and Parker) held him to for the series. The Thunder offense main stalled because they stopped running their best play, and because neither Durant nor Ibaka could dominate their match-ups.

Plus, Westbrook is 6-6. He's not a small guard at all.

Yes, that was a great job. But based on those stats, Belli was better, too. So it should be a wake-up call, your stats aren't the one and only truth.
PPP is the only stat deserves to be considered? Shot denied, turnovers, rebounds...a lot of points to take into account.

Maybe people make these types of statements because all media said -and they were right- Kawhi was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6. All media, not only local media like PtR, 48m or ProjectSpurs.

One of the best OKC offensive weapons is Westbrook penetration. Who can still ignore that Russ killed us in the paint previous games, then with Leonard on him he couldn't create and score with his ability to penetrate.
Plus turnovers, offensive rebounds, etc.

Sorry, but I don't want to debate or argue with you either, I just respond to your opinion. IMO "Leonard was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6/ best Pop's adjustment", isn't a crazy statement.

[ambchang]

A lot has been said about Leonard's defense, so I am going to leave it at that.

But Green's defense has often been overlooked. What is amazing is how quick his hands are, and how well he defends the break. He's a very smart player who obviously spends hours upon hours studying the tendencies of his man, because he seems to know what the players will do before it's done. Green may not have the physical strengths that Leonard has, but he is just as smart, if not smarter, of a defender as Leonard.

His improvement on the offense last year was great as well. I used to cringe whenever he drives, or shoots anything that is not a three or a FT, but he has shown in last year's playoffs that his game has expanded. He can put the ball and drive some, he can shoot pull up 2s, all he has to work on is passing off the dribble, and he'd be a very complete offensive player in the Spurs system.

[spurraider21]

Still can't believe how little credit Green gets for destroying Wade in the Finals. All the media wants to do is say Wade is washed up, but he looked pretty strong in the playoffs up until the Finals. And call the guy washed up, but he had a monster Game 7 in the 2013 Finals.
yep. at the end of the ECF all the talk was about how healthy wade looked, and how much better he'd be in the finals than he was in 2013 because of it.

but the narrative quickly shifted to "oh he's hurt/done" just because Green went in raw

[illusioNtEk]

Green whooping Kobe's ass on nba 2k14 lol

[Chinook]

Yes, that was a great job. But based on those stats, Belli was better, too. So it should be a wake-up call, your stats aren't the one and only truth.
PPP is the only stat deserves to be considered? Shot denied, turnovers, rebounds...a lot of points to take into account.

Maybe people make these types of statements because all media said -and they were right- Kawhi was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6. All media, not only local media like PtR, 48m or ProjectSpurs.

One of the best OKC offensive weapons is Westbrook penetration. Who can still ignore that Russ killed us in the paint previous games, then with Leonard on him he couldn't create and score with his ability to penetrate.
Plus turnovers, offensive rebounds, etc.

Sorry, but I don't want to debate or argue with you either, I just respond to your opinion. IMO "Leonard was great on Westbrook in game 5 and 6/ best Pop's adjustment", isn't a crazy statement.

I'll leave out much of the stats talk. But Beli doing better on a tiny sample size isn't the same as Green doing better on a sample size as large as Kawhi's. It's simply wrong-headed to use blanket statements to attack all statistical findings.

I just can't understand this whole, "I know what I saw, even though I'm misremembering it," that so many people are taking with this. Westbrook penetrated against Leonard any time he wanted. But Russ just didn't want to attack Duncan for some reason. The Thunder being unable to run the 1/3 PnR was huge, because in the first four games, Kawhi often got confused over whether he was supposed to stay with Durant or switch on Russ. So that left Westbrook open coming off the screen a lot. By Games Five and Six, the Thunder pretty much abandoned their PnR. They instead tried to iso on Green and Bonner, and it didn't work.

The national narrative of the WCF is silly, and it just keeps perpetuating the same misconceptions over and over again. People assume that if a Spur played great defense, then it was probably Leonard, so they attribute it to him. Like you have Mike Breen saying that Green "has become a very solid defender" in the Finals after he had sat there and watched Green dominate defensively the year before. The national media will simply not give Danny credit, which is why Harden got more All-Defense votes.

Again, Leonard was not bad on Westbrook. But he was the third-best Spur against him over the course of the series. I find it absurd to think that was the adjustment that changed the series. That would be like saying that putting Green on Ray Allen is why the Spurs won the Finals.

[wildchild]

Westbrook penetrated against Leonard any time he wanted.

It's hard to believe that a player could penetrate any time he wanted but only got 2 shots in the paint all game.

He didn't shoot, pass, assist in the paint...he didn't create good looks or open 3's, he couldn't cause havoc like other games, so what was the result of those many Westbrook penetrations against Leonard in game 5 and 6?

He didn't want to attack Duncan? Well, I'm not sure. Russ attacked the paint without mercy in previous games but not in game 5/6. You said Leonard had nothing to do with that, obviously I disagree.

[Chinook]

It's hard to believe that a player could penetrate any time he wanted but only got 2 shots in the paint all game.

He didn't shoot, pass, assist in the paint...he didn't create good looks or open 3's, he couldn't cause havoc like other games, so what was the result of those many Westbrook penetrations against Leonard in game 5 and 6?

He didn't want to attack Duncan? Well, I'm not sure. Russ attacked the paint without mercy in previous games but not in game 5/6. You said Leonard had nothing to do with that, obviously I disagree.

He literally passed the ball back out on nearly every drive into the paint. The reason he didn't get assists is because no Thunder role-player could get going (that was the game where no OKC player outside their Big Four scored until the end of the third quarter). When Russ actually went for it the next game, he scored 34 points and drew four shooting fouls on Leonard.

[wildchild]

The national narrative of the WCF is silly, and it just keeps perpetuating the same misconceptions over and over again. People assume that if a Spur played great defense, then it was probably Leonard, so they attribute it to him. Like you have Mike Breen saying that Green "has become a very solid defender" in the Finals after he had sat there and watched Green dominate defensively the year before. The national media will simply not give Danny credit, which is why Harden got more All-Defense votes.

People get confused and think Leonard's hype eclipses Green's performances. So wrong, San Antonio never get the media attention, what's new if a Spur/great defender doesn't receive the credit he deserves? It has always been like that...

[wildchild]

He literally passed the ball back out on nearly every drive into the paint. The reason he didn't get assists is because no Thunder role-player could get going (that was the game where no OKC player outside their Big Four scored until the end of the third quarter). When Russ actually went for it the next game, he scored 34 points and drew four shooting fouls on Leonard.

34 points in the paint...I don't remember that, but if you say so OK.

[Chinook]

34 points in the paint...I don't remember that, but if you say so OK.

It doesn't matter how Westbrook scored. He scored on Leonard on a higher clip that he did on any of the other primary defenders. And it's not like Russ just got lucky and hit a few threes. Kawhi couldn't stop fouling him. OKC in general stopped attacking the paint because they went away from the 1/3 PnR, which was how Russ was getting open in the first four games.

The biggest reason why the Thunder's offense fell apart was Brooks going away from the PnR, especially the 1/3, but also the 1/4 and 3/4. Brooks tried to outsmart Pop by calling ISO plays, thinking that Durant and Westbrook would win their match-ups. He was very wrong in that regard, and combined with Bonner stonewalling Ibaka, the Thunder were sunk. Also, as I noted back then, the Thunder made a concerted effort to get the others involved in Game Five, and it failed miserably. In Game Six, Brooks abandoned the others, which is why OKC was leading for so much of the game.

[wildchild]

It doesn't matter how Westbrook scored.

It really matters, 34 points but only 8-23 34% 7 turnovers.

[Chinook]

It really matters, 34 points but only 8-23 34% 7 turnovers.

Against Leonard, Westbrook scored 14 points off 3/6 shooting and two turnovers. You're gonna either have to accept stats or reject them. No matter how you manipulate them, they don't make Kawhi out to have been a difference-maker on Russ in Game Six.

And just to dispell the idea that Leonard was qualitatively superior in Game Five even if he wasn't quantitatively distinguished, I've charted every possession Westbrook attempted to end in Game Five (meaning every time he tried to shoot, was fouled, turned the ball over or passed to an open man in scoring position). They are listed below:



Quarter
Time
Defender
Move
Place
Shooter
Result
Points


1
11:27
Leonard
Shoot
Elbow
Westbrook
M
2


1
10:08
Green
Pass
Circle
Ibaka
X
0


1
9:29
Leonard
Pass
Elbow
Ibaka
X
0


1
6:55
Green
Pass
Paint
Ibaka
X
0


1
5:17
Leonard
Pass
Wing
Ibaka
M
2


1
4:20
Parker
Pass
FT
Durant
M
2


1
3:30
Leonard
Pass
Paint
Jackson
M
3


1
2:42
Leonard
Shoot
Circle
Westbrook
M
2


1
2:13
Leonard
Foul
FT
Westbrook
N/A
N/A


1
1:35
Mills
Foul
Paint
Westbrook
F
2


2
8:06
Leonard
Pass
FT
Butler
X
0


2
7:38
Leonard
Pass
Elbow
Butler
T
0


2
7:15
Leonard
Pass
Elbow
Butler
F
2


2
6:47
Leonard
Pass
Paint
Collison
T
0


2
5:56
Leonard
Foul
Paint
Westbrook
F
1


2
5:25
Leonard
Pass
Elbow
Ibaka
X
0


2
4:30
Leonard
Pass
Paint
Jackson
X
0


2
4:11
Leonard
Shoot
FT
Westbrook
M
2


2
3:35
Leonard
Shoot
Wing
Westbrook
M
3


2
3:04
Ginobili
Pass
Wing
Jackson
X
0


2
2:42
Leonard
Pass
Wing
Ibaka
M
2


2
2:04
Leonard
Shoot
Wing
Westbrook
X
0


2
1:39
Leonard
Pass
Key
Durant
M
2


2
0:49
Leonard
Shoot
Wing
Westbrook
X
0


2
0:30
Leonard
Pass
SC
Perkins
X
0


2
0:04
Green
Shoot
Wing
Westbrook
M
3


3
10:43
Leonard
Shoot
Wing
Westbrook
X
0


3
10:17
Leonard
Pass
Key
Durant
M
2


3
9:36
Green
Pass
Wing
Durant
X
0


3
8:51
Leonard
Foul
Paint
Westbrook
F
2


3
8:04
Leonard
Shoot
FT
Westbrook
M
2


3
6:53
Leonard
Pass
Wing
Durant
X
0


3
4:16
Leonard
Turnover
Paint
Westbrook
T
0


3
3:34
Leonard
Pass
Elbow
Butler
X
0


3
2:33
Duncan
Shoot
Circle
Westbrook
X
0


3
2:31
Parker
Turnover
SC
Westbrook
T
0


3
2:01
Parker
Foul
Wing
Westbrook
F
2


3
1:56
Ginobili
Pass
FT
Durant
X
0


3
1:18
Ginobili
Turnover
FT
Westbrook
T
0


4
8:54
Leonard
Turnover
Wing
Jones
T
0



As the chart shows, Westbrook didn't really attack the paint much at all, regardless of who was on him. Kawhi had some five-star possessions for sure, including a great effort to fight through a really low screen in the second quarter and an awesome strip of Russ in the third. I have little bad to say about his defense; it simply wasn't as superlative as people remember it.

Watching the game again to make this chart, I now have a clearer understanding of what happened in Game Five:

-Westbrook deferred to Jackson in the first quarter. According to the TNT crew, that was very much part of OKC's plan, as they wanted to make Parker work on defense. It started off great as Reggie torched Tony. But as we all know, that ended up being unsustainable.

-Russ had some early success from deep, making a couple of long-twos and a three against Kawhi and a three from San Marcos against Green to end the first half. That encouraged him to take a few more bad shots. As we all know, that's been the Spurs' game plan against Westbrook for a long time now. It worked great.

-Russ only netted seven assists despite making 21 passes to open players in scoring position. His numbers were really hurt by Ibaka missing so many shots against Bonner, Jackson going cold after the first quarter and generally poor games from the role-players. I feel even more strongly now than I did before that Brooks' very much game-planned for Westbrook to start off as a distributor before trying to score. You can see how pissed Russ was getting as Ibaka and Butler kept clanking shots they usually make.

-Brooks actually predicted Pop correctly in that the Spurs gave Westbrook the full Lebron treatment with Leonard checking him and the bigs determined to clog the paint whenever Russ got past Kawhi. The Spurs guards also dug constantly at the drives of both the OKC stars. That left open men quite a few times, and Westbrook was very proficient at finding them. They just kept missing.

-The bigger story in my mind is that Durant was pretty much held down all game, save for a few spurts which padded his stat totals. It's funny that people seem to be so obsessed with Kawhi sort of guarding Westbrook when the MVP was reduced to a by-stander by Leonard's teammates. Green was tasked with guarding KD most of the game and did a really good job at it. Kawhi was also very strong the few possessions he had to face Durant. Really, everyone but Ginobili held their own.

As I said before: Leonard did a solid job on Westbrook, and the effort was very good. But by no means was that the reason why the Spurs won. I wouldn't even put it in the top five.

[rasuo214]

Stats hardly tell the entire story, anyone with half a brain knows that. Kawhi did a great job on Westbrook and Green did a great job on KD, I don't know why people need to nitpick these things.

[Chinook]

Stats hardly tell the entire story, anyone with half a brain knows that. Kawhi did a great job on Westbrook and Green did a great job on KD, I don't know why people need to nitpick these things.

Those aren't stats. They're literally every play OKC ran involving Westbrook beyond a token extent in Game Five. That's the best I can do for people who don't have the game themselves. What's clear is that some people want to believe in a certain narrative and can't be convinced otherwise.

[wildchild]

As the chart shows, Westbrook didn't really attack the paint much at all, regardless of who was on him.
The chart shows Leonard was on him 28 of 40 possesions, only 2 shots over him in the paint.
You still think Leonard's defense had absolutely nothing to do with it, I still disagree.


That's the best I can do for people who don't have the game themselves.

Thanks! I appreciate your effort tying to enlighten us!

It must be very hard for you that people -like me and some hundred thousands- still think Leonard was great on Westbrook.

So if you think you're the responsible for establishing the bases for the correct reading of the stats or just has a deniable Leonard great defense delirium...I'll support you. That's what we do here on ST, support each other.

[Chinook]

The chart shows Leonard was on him 28 of 40 possesions, only 2 shots over him in the paint.

Westbrook was close to the basket on more than just two occasions. I defined 'paint' above as the space between the FT circle ('FT' in the chart) and the charge circle ('circle' in the chart). All of the 'circle' and 'SC' (short-corner, which is the space along the baseline between the block and the arch) instances and a good deal of the 'FT' and 'elbow' instances were from within 10 feet from the basket. If you look at his non-Leonard possessions, you'll see he had no more success against anyone.


You still think Leonard's defense had absolutely nothing to do with it, I still disagree.

Eh, that's a mischaracterization of what I'm saying. Leonard did a good job on Westbrook. But all of the main Russ defenders except Ginobili had stronger series as a whole than Leonard did in Game Five. It's hard for me to accept that Kawhi made the difference, especially considering that Westbrook's teammates left literally 30 points off the board by missing easy shots or making ill-advised decisions with that ball.


Thanks! I appreciate your effort tying to enlighten us!

It must be very hard for you that people -like me and some hundred thousands- still think Leonard was great on Westbrook.

So if you think you're the responsible for establishing the bases for the correct reading of the stats or just has a deniable Leonard great defense delirium...I'll support you. That's what we do here on ST, support each other.

Well, I appreciate the compliment. What bothers is me that people who haven't rewatched the game as much as I have (especially with the intent to grade players) and who may not have even seen the game in four months make blanket statements about the game just because they want to believe Leonard's a better defender. The fact that the national media agrees with that assessment is not an endorsement to me, as they are even worse at making critical evaluations in lieu of easy generalizations. Hence why the TNT crew kept acting like Green on Durant was a mismatch for OKC despite the fact that Green has turned in great efforts on KD every time they've been matched up.

It doesn't how I break down the tape to show them they're wrong. They believe it simply because they want to.

[wildchild]

What bothers is me that people who haven't rewatched the game as much as I have (especially with the intent to grade players) and who may not have even seen the game in four months make blanket statements about the game just because they want to believe Leonard's a better defender.

Well...maybe you're not the only guy who rewatched games. I shouldn't really tell you this -because I don't want to disappoint you- but many offseason threads on ST have shown a lot of people -including me- were rewatching Spurs playoffs games all summer.

However, I don't want to believe he's a better defender, I know he was great.

[apalisoc_9]

Leonard is one of the most versatile defender in the league and he does it on a consistent basis unlike Lebron who picks his days..He is argubly the best defender in the league in terms of versatility if we don't count lebron who defends once in every three games.

But I'd have to admit, I've always thought Danny was a better 1 defender.

As for wildchild and chinook, Leonard defended Durant better than Green when that was his assignment. Not talking about the series, just in general...

Green IMO is probably better suited to guard westbrook, but POP obviously had something else in mind..Kawhi has a tendency to give guards open space in the midrange...IMO, that's probably why he had leonard guarding westbrook, which goes along with their plan of letting westbrook do whatever the hell he wants to do. Imagine if Green Shutdown Westbrook, Durant would have had the ball!!

[Chinook]

Well...maybe you're not the only guy who rewatched games. I shouldn't really tell you this -because I don't want to disappoint you- but many offseason threads on ST have shown a lot of people -including me- were rewatching Spurs playoffs games all summer.

However, I don't want to believe he's a better defender, I know he was great.

I haven't seen you present anything other than someone else's opinion for why Leonard did a superior job on Westbrook. You may well have rewatched the game, but you haven't given me any critical analysis of it. I say Leonard wasn't a better defender and set to support it with hours of work. Other say he was better and proceed to sit on their haunches. I apologize if I get miffed at that.

But I don't mean to offend you. You've been a good sport even though we've been disagreeing on this for a couple of days. I hope you're not feeling like I'm attacking you.

[Chinook]

As for wildchild and chinook, Leonard defended Durant better than Green when that was his assignment. Not talking about the series, just in general...

I don't have a ton of issue with this. I think Leonard is a tailor-made Durant-stopper. Green did a good job against KD primarily because OKC kept trying to put Durant in the low post, which isn't KD's strong suit and something Green can defend due to his years of being a PF. Had they kept Durant on the high post/triple-threat position, I think the Thunder would have been more successful.


Green IMO is probably better suited to guard westbrook, but POP obviously had something else in mind..Kawhi has a tendency to give guards open space in the midrange...IMO, that's probably why he had leonard guarding westbrook, which goes along with their plan of letting westbrook do whatever the hell he wants to do. Imagine if Green Shutdown Westbrook, Durant would have had the ball!!

I think Pop wanted Leonard on Westbrook because he anticipated a Russ/KD PnR. The Spurs would switch that, which would put Kawhi on Durant and Green on Westbrook. In the previous games, Parker and Leonard got confused over how to defend the 1/3 PnR, and Westbrook kept getting into the paint because the two Spurs kept going to Durant. However, Brooks went away from the 1/3 PnR in the last two games, because he didn't want the Spurs to switch it. He thought that Westbrook had the advantage over Kawhi and Durant had it over Green.

He ended up being dead wrong.

[dabom]

Kawhi's defense on westbrook was great and anyone trying to deny that is a loony.

[wildchild]

I haven't seen you present anything other than someone else's opinion for why Leonard did a superior job on Westbrook. You may well have rewatched the game, but you haven't given me any critical analysis of it. I say Leonard wasn't a better defender and set to support it with hours of work. Other say he was better and proceed to sit on their haunches.

Casually I agree with those guys, their voices are my voice, too. I don't need make a critical analysis to disagree in a constructive way because I don't want to convince you, like I've said before I just respond to your opinion.

[wildchild]

Kawhi's defense on westbrook was great and anyone trying to deny that is a loony.

I know, but I like to listen the people who disagree with me, maybe the guy who disagrees with me is probably the most valuable guy, he forces me to re-examine my point, and helps me to keep and strengthen my view.

For example, after reading the chart, I feel even more convinced what I said about Leonard defense was right.

So yes, you/me/a lot of people know he was great, but if a guy disagrees with us, he isn't a loony, he's just wrong.

[wildchild]

IMO, that's probably why he had leonard guarding westbrook, which goes along with their plan of letting westbrook do whatever the hell he wants to do. Imagine if Green Shutdown Westbrook, Durant would have had the ball!!

For real kid? I'm so disappointed in you. You're indirectly saying Westbrook can do what he wants if Leonard defending him...I would expect this from anyone but you.

Damn. I was thinking of naming my first child -boy or girl- Kawhi or Apalisoc. Now apalisoc is not an option. No more.

[wildchild]

:p:

[apalisoc_9]

I think Pop wanted Leonard on Westbrook because he anticipated a Russ/KD PnR. The Spurs would switch that, which would put Kawhi on Durant and Green on Westbrook. In the previous games, Parker and Leonard got confused over how to defend the 1/3 PnR, and Westbrook kept getting into the paint because the two Spurs kept going to Durant. However, Brooks went away from the 1/3 PnR in the last two games, because he didn't want the Spurs to switch it. He thought that Westbrook had the advantage over Kawhi and Durant had it over Green.

He ended up being dead wrong.

Yup, Pop had the option to put Kawhi back on durant though after game 5. While Initially, the plan was to counter the PnR..Pop probably liked what he saw from Westbrook and his inability to get an MVP player involved as much as he should.


For real kid? I'm so disappointed in you. You're indirectly saying Westbrook can do what he wants if Leonard defending him...I would expect this from anyone but you.

Damn. I was thinking of naming my first child -boy or girl- Kawhi or Apalisoc. Now apalisoc is not an option. No more.

I think it's more of a compliment to kawhi more than anything tbh. What's the point of being hardnosed, if you can allow the opposing player to deny the best offensive option they have..Kawhi when guarding guards has always been about using his reach..He tempts them to shoot..

It just so happens that westbrook is 6'6..Kawhi will learn..Imo, he's going to be the best defender in the league.

[wildchild]

I should use the blue font more often...

[KL2]

It just so happens that westbrook is 6'6..Kawhi will learn..Imo, he's going to be the best defender in the league.

I thought he was like 6'3? Was looking at a skills challenge pic with him standing next to other PG's, Wall is slightly taller than him he's 6'4 I think.

[SpursFan86]

Lol Westbrook is definitely nowhere near 6'6". He's a little over 6'3" with shoes on.

[timtonymanu]

Wing stop

[FkLA]

LDN is massively underrated. Compliments Kawhi perfectly.