If Serge Ibaka Was Playing...

[UZER]

Yeah yeah...we fucking get it. But guess what, he's not. Your job is to call the game, not remind us every two minutes that Ibaka is not playing.

[mando6599]

No kidding, homer TNT announcers.

[SupremeGuy]

Even if Isucka played, we would have won this game, tbh. Fuck that jungle nigga.

[RD2191]

Overrated imo. Clips dropped 100+ multiple times on OKC.

[sananspursfan21]

Would have been a closer game and we might have sweat a little more but there was no denying the spurs tonight.

[mudyez]

First few sentences of the ESPN recap:

SAN ANTONIO -- Tim Duncan scored 27 points and the San Antonio Spurs took advantage of Serge Ibaka's absence to dominate the paint, beating the Oklahoma City Thunder 122-105 on Monday night in the opener of the Western Conference finals.

Manu Ginobili added 18 points and Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green had 16 points each. Tony Parker did not appear limited by a hamstring injury, scoring 14 points and having 12 asssists.

Kevin Durant scored 28 points and Russell Westbrook added 25. Oklahoma City's remaining starters, Nick Collison, Thabo Sefolosha and Kendrick Perkins combined to score five points.

The Thunder struggled without the defensive presence of Ibaka, who will miss the remainder of the postseason after suffering a calf injury in the Thunder's series clincher against the Los Angeles Clippers.

San Antonio had 66 points in the paint and shot 58 percent from the field.

The Spurs fed Duncan early with Ibaka out, and the veteran responded by scoring 12 points in the first quarter, making six of his seven shots.

The Spurs beat the Thunder for the first time this season, but it wasn't easy despite Ibaka's absence. Despite missing his first four shots, Westbrook continued to bull his way into the lane and it paid off as the game wore on.

[Malik Hairston]

Ibaka's absence is a huge factor, tbh, let's not ignore that..

It doesn't matter, though, nobody remembers injuries when they look back at champions..

[Budkin]

There's just no denying we caught a huge break but they have the ref advantage (see that bullshit foul call where no one touched Russ) so can we call it even?

[UZER]

There's just no denying we caught a huge break but they have the ref advantage (see that bullshit foul call where no one touched Russ) so can we call it even?

We all know this, but listening to the broadcast tonight, the thunder were the team getting hosed. Fuckin Reggie and Kerr. Not to go homer, but damn those dudes pulling for okc was clearly coming thru the broadcast.

Kerr called the block on Manu a bad call, but only because it was blatantly obvious and they showed the slow mo replay. /rant

[slick'81]

Swear the same reporter keep asking the spurs and okc about ibaka pretty annoying

[timtonymanu]

Spurs honestly would have been fucked if Ibaka was playing tonight. The Spurs caught a lucky break, they now need to take advantage.

[slick'81]

Spurs honestly would have been fucked if Ibaka was playing tonight. The Spurs caught a lucky break, they now need to take advantage.


This ,possible championship swing tbh

[myhc]

I saw the post game and I think about 1 out of every 3 questions from the reporters was about Ibaka. :lol

[myhc]

Spurs honestly would have been fucked if Ibaka was playing tonight. The Spurs caught a lucky break, they now need to take advantage.

truth.

[The Reckoning]

thunder shouldn't be playing for the finals if the absence of one player hurts them this bad. if spurs lost any of their key players, the difference would be negligible.

[Budkin]

I saw the post game and I think about 1 out of every 3 questions from the reporters was about Ibaka. :lol

At one point Tim came really close to rolling his eyes even lol.

[Prose]

Yeah yeah...we fucking get it. But guess what, he's not. Your job is to call the game, not remind us every two minutes that Ibaka is not playing.
They never talked about Tonys injury in the finals or manus injury in 2011.

[Malik Hairston]

Ibaka is more valuable than Westbrook against the Spurs, as I said before the game, tbh..

However, nobody remembers injuries..

2013: no Westbrook
2009: no Garnett, no Yao, no Jameer Nelson
2006: No Amare
2004: Karl Malone misses Finals
2003: no Dirk, no Webber
2000: no Duncan

[SpurPadre]

Spurs honestly would have been fucked if Ibaka was playing tonight. The Spurs caught a lucky break, they now need to take advantage.

If it were a 1 point, loss I can see that but with a 17 point win, you have to give your team some credit. Make no mistake, I think we should be able to sweep them because Ibaka is out but had he played, we gotta believe we would figure them out in a 7 game series.

[DPG21920]

Spurs absolutely destroyed OKC tonight, but it's hard to say what Ibaka would do. No doubt he is a positive impact for obvious reasons though. No need to deny or hide from that. Plenty of teams have had massive injuries, but OKC has it bad the past few years unfortunately for them.

Having said that, Spurs dismantled OKC tonight. There were rough stretches, but as a whole, Spurs got what ever they wanted. OKC is in so much trouble if their bench doesn't get them the production they did tonight or if KD/Westbrook struggle. The pressure to score on KD/Westbrook is so unreal right now. In pretty much every game, if OKC gets locked up for a 5-6 minute stretch, that is a double digit lead for the Spurs.

Although they are different teams, the overall principle is the same: The Spurs are going to go get a healthy dose of of good looks all game. Much more than their opponent. Doesn't mean they can't lose, just means that they should be in the driver seat if they rebound, take care of the ball and if OKC doesn't get bench/kd/westbrook production.

[myhc]

Spurs absolutely destroyed OKC tonight, but it's hard to say what Ibaka would do. No doubt he is a positive impact for obvious reasons though. No need to deny or hide from that. Plenty of teams have had massive injuries, but OKC has it bad the past few years unfortunately for them.

Having said that, Spurs dismantled OKC tonight. There were rough stretches, but as a whole, Spurs got what ever they wanted. OKC is in so much trouble if their bench doesn't get them the production they did tonight or if KD/Westbrook struggle. The pressure to score on KD/Westbrook is so unreal right now. In pretty much every game, if OKC gets locked up for a 5-6 minute stretch, that is a double digit lead for the Spurs.

Although they are different teams, the overall principle is the same: The Spurs are going to go get a healthy dose of of good looks all game. Much more than their opponent. Doesn't mean they can't lose, just means that they should be in the driver seat if they rebound, take care of the ball and if OKC doesn't get bench/kd/westbrook production.

And remember, it took the rotting corpse of Derek Fisher going into "oh look it's the Spurs time to turn on beast" mode to make this game even that close.

[heyheymymy]

Re-posting my rant from the game thread because this really pissed me off and i just now saw this thread with its more appropriate title for my GNSF melt:

I mean that right there is why i don't feel sorry for okc. you wanna waste money on stars and not amnesty perkins and get real help down low you run into this problem. I mean after perk and ibaka you got adams and collison? If spurs were to lose spiltter (their version of the "defensive anchor" so i picked him) they still throw diaw in the starting lineup. plus they have a forward that, apparently unlike KD, can play the 4 in small ball situations effectively (leonard), and the spurs run a system where bonner, ayers and baynes could spell duncan/diaw + leonard smallball 4, and spurs would still be competitive at least, even with a starting big out.

Spurs could still get capable defense from leonard, duncan, green, parker diaw and manu- all with the spurs "defensive anchor" splitter hypothetically out. It's not my fault the MVP cant defend and no one else on this okc team besides ibaka knows how to play at the other end of the court either.

How many times tonight were the announcers like: "see, usually that would get stopped but ibakas out" and "if only okc had some sort of way, some sort of bigger, more athletic forward out there other than collison, that shot would've been defended so much better."

Asterisk me the fuck up because okc was thin to begin with and they dont have a system and shit happens and youre left with what you prepared yourself with.

[ElNono]

Fuck Abaka and fuck the Thunder

[The Reckoning]

wow look at this fellatio espn recap of the game. i understand not having ibaka is a factor, but starting every other sentence with it? seems like they're already making excuses.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400558954

[T Park]

Spurs absolutely destroyed OKC tonight, but it's hard to say what Ibaka would do. No doubt he is a positive impact for obvious reasons though. No need to deny or hide from that. Plenty of teams have had massive injuries, but OKC has it bad the past few years unfortunately for them.

Having said that, Spurs dismantled OKC tonight. There were rough stretches, but as a whole, Spurs got what ever they wanted. OKC is in so much trouble if their bench doesn't get them the production they did tonight or if KD/Westbrook struggle. The pressure to score on KD/Westbrook is so unreal right now. In pretty much every game, if OKC gets locked up for a 5-6 minute stretch, that is a double digit lead for the Spurs.

Although they are different teams, the overall principle is the same: The Spurs are going to go get a healthy dose of of good looks all game. Much more than their opponent. Doesn't mean they can't lose, just means that they should be in the driver seat if they rebound, take care of the ball and if OKC doesn't get bench/kd/westbrook production.


I defy Caron butler to shoot that we'll again. Him and fisher were pretty much the bench.

[The Reckoning]

that means serge is "the real mvp"

[HI-FI]

I don't give a shit if the media wants to sucks his Congo cock. As long as the Spurs win, it don't matter to me. Not our fault their team relies so heavily on playing a few guys shit load of minutes or they become dependent on officiating.

[heyheymymy]

they never really did this when manu was injured in 2011, and that team was build more around him than okc is built around ibaka. this is KDs team wtf can the mvp not do anything but score?

[spurs10]

Fuck Abaka and fuck the Thunder No fucking kidding!

[RD2191]

Injuries are a part of the game. Spurs could possibly have 6 or more titles if not for injuries. Just think about how different the NBA would be if not for injuries. What if Grant didn't injured? What if Duncan didn't go down in 2000? What if Oden stayed healthy? Same for B Roy, D Rose, Yao, and a multitude of other players. Just the way it goes.

[aal04]

Yeah i agree, LBJ would have shared titles/mvps with Rose too. That chicago team would be running the heat into the ground, and highly likely re-aggravating wades injuries. Injuries is a different league.

[heyheymymy]

injuries are why you have got to have a system and a deep bench, with players like sharks teeth, just in rows one after the next. you've also gotta manage mins, those okc players got run into the ground b/c they dont have a bench.

[benstanfield]

Ibaka's absence is HUGE. I tried to stress this as much as possible before g1 but nobody cares what I say. Ibaka not playing took this from a 6 game series in the Thunder's favor to a 5 game series in ours.

That being said, TNT can talk all they want about his injury. We're winning this series and I don't give a shit what the national pundits think.

[spurs1990]

i knew the Spurs wouldn't get any respect with that congolese bastard out, but you would think he was their 1st or 2nd best player, not just a solid clog.

[BatManu20]

468652928031391745

[Shaolin-Style]

http://i.imgur.com/pANJsX0.jpg

Yes, Ibaka is a bigger deal than Lebron James right now.

[will_spurs]

No kidding, homer TNT announcers.

Replay of Durant swiping his arms and elbowing Kawhi in the face.

Reggie "I want to suck the MVP's dick" Miller: "what a sweeeeeeet move by Durant!"

[spurraider21]

game would have been different with ibaka playing, but its pure speculation to wonder JUST how much of a difference he would have made. the spurs wouldn't have gotten as many easy looks as they did, but at the same time he's Ibaka, not Bill Russell.

[Kidd K]

If Ibaka was playing, the Thunder would still lose.

You guys who use the awful mentality of, "The Spurs couldn't have done some of that stuff if Ibaka was out there", need to stop and think. Would they actually go that hard inside if he was? No, they'd be doing other shit to abuse other holes in OKC's defense, and OKC would still lose.

Y'all act like Pop abusing OKC's shitty bigs is "lucky" rather than completely on purpose.

[313]

nobody remembers injuries when they look back at champions..

[rascal]

First few sentences of the ESPN recap:

SAN ANTONIO -- Tim Duncan scored 27 points and the San Antonio Spurs took advantage of Serge Ibaka's absence to dominate the paint, beating the Oklahoma City Thunder 122-105 on Monday night in the opener of the Western Conference finals.

Manu Ginobili added 18 points and Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green had 16 points each. Tony Parker did not appear limited by a hamstring injury, scoring 14 points and having 12 asssists.

Kevin Durant scored 28 points and Russell Westbrook added 25. Oklahoma City's remaining starters, Nick Collison, Thabo Sefolosha and Kendrick Perkins combined to score five points.

The Thunder struggled without the defensive presence of Ibaka, who will miss the remainder of the postseason after suffering a calf injury in the Thunder's series clincher against the Los Angeles Clippers.

San Antonio had 66 points in the paint and shot 58 percent from the field.

The Spurs fed Duncan early with Ibaka out, and the veteran responded by scoring 12 points in the first quarter, making six of his seven shots.

The Spurs beat the Thunder for the first time this season, but it wasn't easy despite Ibaka's absence. Despite missing his first four shots, Westbrook continued to bull his way into the lane and it paid off as the game wore on.

Stats support OK City much better against the spurs when Ibaka is on the floor.

[jag]

Fuck Abaka and fuck the Thunder

After all the years of the Spurs limping into the playoffs. Tony with one foot. Manu running around with one elbow and no nose. Tim with one knee. Blair with no ACLs. Boris being so fat.

Fuck the Thunder. Fuck Abaka and fuck their fans.

[to21]

While losing Ibaka is huge for the Thunder, no way does one player negate 66 points in the paint.

[testies]

wow look at this fellatio espn recap of the game. i understand not having ibaka is a factor, but starting every other sentence with it? seems like they're already making excuses.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400558954

If you ctrl+F that page "Ibaka", there is like 14 results

:lol

[Knoxxx]

They never talked about Tonys injury in the finals or manus injury in 2011.

Exactly. Tony's hammy injury last year OBVIOUSLY cost us a title, I don't want to hear a thing about Ibaka CRY ME A RIVER!!!!

[smaka]

Injuries are a part of sport, they happen and there is nothing you can do about it. I'm tired of hearing how Spurs have the easy path every year (like last year, where they faced Grizzlies in the WCF), that's bullshit. Other teams have just as "easy" path as we do. If they don't have a player who could stop 38 year old player, well, that's their fault. If they don't rest players during the season, again their fault. Every team is responsible for their players, and not others.
Fuck this "what if Ibaka was playing" shit, because right now it's irrelevant. He is not playing, but the Thunder got blown out despite having "2 best players of this series" (:lol).

[spurspokesman]

There's just no denying we caught a huge break but they have the ref advantage (see that bullshit foul call where no one touched Russ) so can we call it even?

[Old School 44]

Ibaka's absence is HUGE. I tried to stress this as much as possible before g1 but nobody cares what I say. Ibaka not playing took this from a 6 game series in the Thunder's favor to a 5 game series in ours.

That being said, TNT can talk all they want about his injury. We're winning this series and I don't give a shit what the national pundits think.
While I don't agree about your initial prediction (I think the series was a toss up before the injury), against the Spurs, Ibaka is the second most important player, behind Durant. His defense impacts our offense dramatically, but even more important is his defense sparks their offense, especially in the open court.

[MultiTroll]

Replay of Durant swiping his arms and elbowing Kawhi in the face.

Reggie "I want to suck the MVP's dick" Miller: "what a sweeeeeeet move by Durant!"
:lol yeah i caught that bullshit too.
Regina is mute button worthy.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

For the people that say the Spurs are lucky. What about that stretch of the 3 playoffs (09-11) where the Spurs Big 3 were battling plantar fasciitis (Duncan/Parker), jumper's knee (Duncan), broken ankle (Manu), broken hand (Parker), broken arm (Manu).

That is why everyone wrote the Spurs off. But they failed to realize the Spurs weren't fully healthy in any of those seasons.

Spurs had they share of the injury woes. You can include the early 00's when Elliott, Anderson, Duncan (father's death) and Robinson being out of the playoffs as well. Injuries happen. Magic had to play C against Moses Malone (one of the best C/PF ever) to win a championship when Kareem went down. Injuries happen.

[TampaDude]

If Ibaka was playing, the Thunder would still lose.

You guys who use the awful mentality of, "The Spurs couldn't have done some of that stuff if Ibaka was out there", need to stop and think. Would they actually go that hard inside if he was? No, they'd be doing other shit to abuse other holes in OKC's defense, and OKC would still lose.

Y'all act like Pop abusing OKC's shitty bigs is "lucky" rather than completely on purpose.

^ this

We completely dominated the Thunder last night. Even if Ibaka was playing and was 100%, we still would have won.

[mavsfan1000]

I would've loved to see a close series. But OKC has no shotblocker now. It's a layup line for San Antonio. Collison should study how Ibaka guards the rim. But I guess you can't study athleticism.

[kidd_91]

that means serge is "the real mvp":lmao

[DBMethos]

OKC should start Mama Durant at the four spot.

[cd021]

Thunders defense has been fairly shaky since post all star break. Thats probably a big reason why they didn't win the #1 seed. They obviously aren't going to be anywhere as good on that end. They also can't stay big with 3 offensive non factors in Perk, Sef and Collison. Butler isn't a great defender neither is Westbrook or Fisher. Its kind of a perfect storm for them.

Not to mention offensively where the Spurs can pack the paint ,when they have a true big on the floor or throw a combo of Parker, Green, Manu, Leonard, Diaw, Mills, or Belinelli with Duncan or Splitter and go small.

Their "3 headed monster" combined for 9 points,15 rebounds 2 blocks, 7 PF, +/- - 27, in 57 minutes.

[mudyez]

Stats support OK City much better against the spurs when Ibaka is on the floor.

I don't doubt that, but as a reader I 'd be like: "WTF? Does ESPN think I can't remember what I just read 6 seconds ago?"

...and as a Spurs fan I'm like: "ESPN blows some OKC dicks hard....gets cummed over its BSPN face...keeps blowing...gets another load right into the muth....can't get enough...gimme one more load...uh yeah....okc, cum on my wife...its still not enough...cum on my 6 year old children!...see you in the next game recap my love"

[rascal]

For the people that say the Spurs are lucky. What about that stretch of the 3 playoffs (09-11) where the Spurs Big 3 were battling plantar fasciitis (Duncan/Parker), jumper's knee (Duncan), broken ankle (Manu), broken hand (Parker), broken arm (Manu).

That is why everyone wrote the Spurs off. But they failed to realize the Spurs weren't fully healthy in any of those seasons.

Spurs had they share of the injury woes. You can include the early 00's when Elliott, Anderson, Duncan (father's death) and Robinson being out of the playoffs as well. Injuries happen. Magic had to play C against Moses Malone (one of the best C/PF ever) to win a championship when Kareem went down. Injuries happen.

Spurs were fine in many of those cases, they took the court and even had big games in those times. Totally different than a guy being out for the playoffs. That broken Manu arm is bullshit overrated. He was playing and playing well.

[rascal]

Injuries are a part of sport, they happen and there is nothing you can do about it. I'm tired of hearing how Spurs have the easy path every year (like last year, where they faced Grizzlies in the WCF), that's bullshit. Other teams have just as "easy" path as we do. If they don't have a player who could stop 38 year old player, well, that's their fault. If they don't rest players during the season, again their fault. Every team is responsible for their players, and not others.
Fuck this "what if Ibaka was playing" shit, because right now it's irrelevant. He is not playing, but the Thunder got blown out despite having "2 best players of this series" (:lol).

Thunder don't have the best two players. Durant,Duncan,Parker,Westbrook,Leonard
Spurs have the 2nd,3rd and 5th best players.

[smaka]

Thunder don't have the best two players. Durant,Duncan,Parker,Westbrook,Leonard
Spurs have the 2nd,3rd and 5th best players.

I was just reffering to some opinions who stated that. Obviously, I don't agree.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Spurs were fine in many of those cases, they took the court and even had big games in those times. Totally different than a guy being out for the playoffs. That broken Manu arm is bullshit overrated. He was playing and playing well.

I have had plantar fasciitis, believe me it hurts. It feels like someone is stabbing you in the heel with a knife when you sprint or jump. That is why everyone rode Duncan as done when he couldn't post anyone and he couldn't stop anyone in the post for those couple of years. If you ever get it, I hope you don't, you will probably begin to understand how painful it would be to have play against the best talent in the world with that pain.

Manu only had one good game in the Memphis series. He even said after the series he was in pain mostly and couldn't focus.

Playing with a painful injury is sometimes more detrimental to your team than if you just sat. If Serge came back, it would be pointless. His mind wants to play, but when he wants to go for a rebound or block shot, and his body (torn flexor muscle) tells him no, he will realize, no matter how strong your will is, sometimes your body wins out.

[mclinejr]

thunder shouldn't be playing for the finals if the absence of one player hurts them this bad. if spurs lost any of their key players, the difference would be negligible.

[EVAY]

…the announcers would have to come up with some other reason for the Spurs winning games.

[ErnestLynch]

Ibaka is more valuable than Westbrook against the Spurs, as I said before the game, tbh..

However, nobody remembers injuries..

2013: no Westbrook
2009: no Garnett, no Yao, no Jameer Nelson
2006: No Amare
2004: Karl Malone misses Finals
2003: no Dirk, no Webber
2000: no Duncan

Then we had Manu break his arm in the next to last game of the season one year. In a pointless meaningless game. Caught between a pick and roll...He played anyway, but ....

[rascal]

I have had plantar fasciitis, believe me it hurts. It feels like someone is stabbing you in the heel with a knife when you sprint or jump. That is why everyone rode Duncan as done when he couldn't post anyone and he couldn't stop anyone in the post for those couple of years. If you ever get it, I hope you don't, you will probably begin to understand how painful it would be to have play against the best talent in the world with that pain.

Manu only had one good game in the Memphis series. He even said after the series he was in pain mostly and couldn't focus.

Playing with a painful injury is sometimes more detrimental to your team than if you just sat. If Serge came back, it would be pointless. His mind wants to play, but when he wants to go for a rebound or block shot, and his body (torn flexor muscle) tells him no, he will realize, no matter how strong your will is, sometimes your body wins out.

Manu averaged 35 minutes a game and 20.6 points a game(better than his regular season average in 2011 playoffs) so i am not buying he was all that injured.

Nothing like Ibaka who is not even on the court.

[rascal]

thunder shouldn't be playing for the finals if the absence of one player hurts them this bad. if spurs lost any of their key players, the difference would be negligible.

If the Spurs lost Duncan they would get swept by a healthy OK City. Key players are huge difference makers.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

If the Spurs lost Duncan they would get swept by a healthy OK City. Key players are huge difference makers.

The way Splitter and Baynes played while Duncan wasn't on the floor on Monday, I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[Jenks]

Spurs were winning this series with Ibaka

Biggest changes for the Spurs since 2012 - massive improvements from Leonard, Splitter, Mills (let's see Brooks resort to hack-a-splitter now)
Biggest change for the Thunder since 2012 - lost their second best player (not including Joey Crawford)

If anyone thinks OKC was pulling this out when you consider 2012, and after watching them need extreme league and ref help to get through the first 2 rounds this year, they are fucking delusional.

[313]

Spurs were winning this series with Ibaka

Biggest changes for the Spurs since 2012 - massive improvements from Leonard, Splitter, Mills (let's see Brooks resort to hack-a-splitter now)
Biggest change for the Thunder since 2012 - lost their second best player (not including Joey Crawford)

If anyone thinks OKC was pulling this out when you consider 2012, and after watching them need extreme league and ref help to get through the first 2 rounds this year, they are fucking delusional.

[313]

Bonner got more minutes in 2012 than Splitter

/thread

[UZER]

People are acting like it's the same teams from 2012.

Everyone, with th exception of Manu who has lost consistency, on the spurs has improved since 2012, even Duncan since he was noticeably hobbled.

While the thunder has regressed since losing harden, or at least maintained the same level with the improvement of Durant and WB.

It took a perfect storm to beat SA, including Ibakas perfect game, and the bogus game 6 officiating.

[rascal]

Spurs were winning this series with Ibaka



Homer Speculation. No one knows one way or another.

[look_at_g_shred]

Homer Speculation. No one knows one way or another.
nor does it matter

[Jenks]

Homer Speculation. No one knows one way or another.
We'll never know. And we'll never know if Ibaka would have scored a single point or altered a single shot during the series if he played. Who knows, Scott Brooks may have benched him the entire series. All we can do is wildly speculate! /s

[313]

nor does it matter

[rjv]

....we wouldn't have to waste our time with stupid threads.

[Oh, Gee!!]

We'll never know. And we'll never know if Ibaka would have scored a single point or altered a single shot during the series if he played. Who knows, Scott Brooks may have benched him the entire series. All we can do is wildly speculate! /s

We can reasonably speculate based on Ibaka's prior history and stats vs. the spurs that he would have likely helped the thunder in this series, and that he would have scored some points and altered some shots. that's not a stretch.

[Jenks]

We can reasonably speculate based on Ibaka's prior history and stats vs. the spurs that he would have likely helped the thunder in this series, and that he would have scored some points and altered some shots. that's not a stretch.Exactly, now when you put 2 and 2 together you'll realize you just agreed with me. We can reasonably speculate based on prior history.