Don't want to pay Kyrie Irving max money

[djohn2oo8]

The Cavs are making noises that they aren’t going to offer Kyrie Irving “max money’’ this summer via a long-term extension. They don’t want to deal the 2014 All-Star Game MVP, but it could come to that, especially if the West Orange product and his family continue to tell people that he wants out. Irving hasn’t been a leader in his first three seasons and he’s also gained the unwelcomed reputation as a locker-room problem. Those are two reasons the Cavs don’t see him as a max player.

“He was just handed too much, too soon,’’ said one source. “You’ve got to make these young guys earn it, and that’s where this team did a bad job with him.’’


?http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/lawrence-memphis-grizzlies-best-franchise-sports-article-1.1804428

[benstanfield]

Embiid like "ow my back"

[Mark in Austin]

If I'm Cleveland I offer him Parker / Rondo money w/ a player out after 3 years and tell him "if you want more, prove you're worth it. make your teammates better and you'll be rewarded. Until then, here's 12M a year."

[TDMVPDPOY]

would rather let him walk, could care about value return, when its crap anyway

make him suffer the financial consquences, whose got the max to offer anyway

of he can goto LA and play with kobe for 15m

[StrengthAndHonor]

Cavs will be foolish not to offer him max because a lot of teams will present that number in their offer sheets. Even though we can all agree he doesn't deserve it, the market dictates a players value and a young All Star will always receive ridiculous numbers from every franchise given a chance.

[Koolaid_Man]

The Cavs are making noises that they aren’t going to offer Kyrie Irving “max money’’ this summer via a long-term extension. They don’t want to deal the 2014 All-Star Game MVP, but it could come to that, especially if the West Orange product and his family continue to tell people that he wants out. Irving hasn’t been a leader in his first three seasons and he’s also gained the unwelcomed reputation as a locker-room problem. Those are two reasons the Cavs don’t see him as a max player.

“He was just handed too much, too soon,’’ said one source. “You’ve got to make these young guys earn it, and that’s where this team did a bad job with him.’’


?http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/lawrence-memphis-grizzlies-best-franchise-sports-article-1.1804428

Kyrie > Harding tbh

[Koolaid_Man]

but Kyrie too lite in the ass to deserve Max...I hope he doesn't Sprewell himself

[baseline bum]

Cleveland is such a fucking trainwreck. Wonder if Irving is a piece of shit or if that franchise is just cancer to talent. No way Irving is staying there on anything less than a max contract.

[DPG21920]

Smartest line of thinking the Cavs have done in long, long time.

[Clipper Nation]

Cleveland is such a fucking trainwreck. Wonder if Irving is a piece of shit or if that franchise is just cancer to talent. No way Irving is staying there on anything less than a max contract.
It's both, tbh.... Cavs are a joke, and Kyrie is a cancer who hogs the ball, plays no D, and is despised by his teammates....

[baseline bum]

It's both, tbh.... Cavs are a joke, and Kyrie is a cancer who hogs the ball, plays no D, and is despised by his teammates....

Still, who cares about being despised by crap like Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, Tristan Thompson, etc.? Seemed like a decent enough teammate at Duke, but maybe a nigga is frustrated being on such a loser of a franchise. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him move to another team and do really well there. Damn I feel bad for Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, or whoever else has the misfortune of being picked by that worthless team.

[Koolaid_Man]

Still, who cares about being despised by crap like Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, Tristan Thompson, etc.? Seemed like a decent enough teammate at Duke, but maybe a nigga is frustrated being on such a loser of a franchise. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him move to another team and do really well there. Damn I feel bad for Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, or whoever else has the misfortune of being picked by that worthless team.

:lol Inadvertently shitting on Clippa Nations wack ass take.

[Clipper Nation]

Still, who cares about being despised by crap like Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, Tristan Thompson, etc.?
Kyrie literally got the shit beaten out of him by that "crap" in the locker room for being such a selfish bitch, so he probably should care, tbh :lol

[baseline bum]

Kyrie literally got the shit beaten out of him by that "crap" in the locker room for being such a selfish bitch, so he probably should care, tbh :lol

Not really Kyrie's fault that Waiters sucks. Nigga wasn't any good at Syracuse either.

[Mal]

They`ll offer him max anyway.

[Richie]

He'll sign a max offer sheet and Cavs will match. No way he leaves after the cavs get the #1 again

[PingPong]

Overrated nigga. Selfish, low iq bball, doesn't play defense. Not Worth a max contract. Yet.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Not really Kyrie's fault that Waiters sucks. Nigga wasn't any good at Syracuse either.
This is true. The Kyrie bashing is overblown. The Cavs locker room chemistry was really between Kyrie and Dion, with Bynum on the side. Waiters' problem is he thinks he's better than what he is.

[Chinook]

It's borderline idiotic to offer a player a max extension if you're unsure about his long-term prospects. Worst comes to worse, they just match his offer-sheet in 2015. I actually doubt he gets a max offer unless he plays significantly better next season.

The only time you should offer a max extension is if you intend to go for the five-year deal. I doubt the Cavs go there, as they may well want to save it for Embiid/whomever they draft this season. Also, max extensions allow for a player with Irving's accolades to earn the Rose-max of 30 percent of the cap instead of the regular max of 25. If the Cavs let him sign an offer sheet, he can only get the lower figure.

[DD]

Smartest line of thinking the Cavs have done in long, long time.

Yes and no. He sure as shit ain't worth it but it's gonna be hard to sell the casual fan on a marketable product when you keep watching your top picks skip town. Furthermore, what kind of message does that send to the future top pick?

Catch-22 for Cleveland.

[Kawhi]

Curry didn't get a max contact either iirc

[JoeTait75]

This is true. The Kyrie bashing is overblown. The Cavs locker room chemistry was really between Kyrie and Dion, with Bynum on the side. Waiters' problem is he thinks he's better than what he is.

True. Waiters is a 2nd-year player on a bad team that thinks he should get superstar calls from the refs and superstar respect from his teammates even though he hasn't earned it.

Kyrie to a certain extent is being forced to cash some checks LeBron wrote, so to speak. I think a lot of people in Cleveland- fans and media- felt pretty foolish after they kissed LeBron's ass for seven years and he blew town anyway. So they're tough on Kyrie to make up for not being tough on LeBron.

Still, Kyrie brings some of this on himself. His body language sucks, his effort in a lot of areas has been spotty- there have been too many nights where he spends 35 minutes moping around, being a turnstile on defense and then the last five playing hero ball to try and make up for it.

IIRC Windhorst thinks they'll offer him the max and if he tries to pull a LeBron and asks a shorter deal with an opt-out they'll go ahead and shop him.

[DMC]

Cavs will be foolish not to offer him max because a lot of teams will present that number in their offer sheets. Even though we can all agree he doesn't deserve it, the market dictates a players value and a young All Star will always receive ridiculous numbers from every franchise given a chance.

Cavs would be stupid to offer any point guard max money. Let him walk and bring in a legit center. They have a 1st overall pick, they can get whomever they want. He's not a max money guy.

[DMC]

True. Waiters is a 2nd-year player on a bad team that thinks he should get superstar calls from the refs and superstar respect from his teammates even though he hasn't earned it.

Kyrie to a certain extent is being forced to cash some checks LeBron wrote, so to speak. I think a lot of people in Cleveland- fans and media- felt pretty foolish after they kissed LeBron's ass for seven years and he blew town anyway. So they're tough on Kyrie to make up for not being tough on LeBron.

Still, Kyrie brings some of this on himself. His body language sucks, his effort in a lot of areas has been spotty- there have been too many nights where he spends 35 minutes moping around, being a turnstile on defense and then the last five playing hero ball to try and make up for it.

IIRC Windhorst thinks they'll offer him the max and if he tries to pull a LeBron and asks a shorter deal with an opt-out they'll go ahead and shop him.

Players don't stay because the fans are sycophants. They stay because the money is good and the front office is serious about competing. You're told your the best thing that ever happened to the game, since 8th grade, and you see that in your 1st year in the NBA, right out of high school, you're doing better than most guys who've been there for years. You have to think you're meant for bigger things than a facade of an attempt to get a championship for Cleveland... and 4 years later Cleveland is still picking in the draft. Just goes to show you they have never been serious about winning.

[testies]

cleveland would be much better off if instead of NBA gifting them #1 picks every year, they gave them an arena in key west or some sunny ass city, that would change the franchise 180 degrees

[StrengthAndHonor]

Cavs would be stupid to offer any point guard max money. Let him walk and bring in a legit center. They have a 1st overall pick, they can get whomever they want. He's not a max money guy.
Any point guard, I'd agree, but Kyrie is not just any PG. He's overrated and his game presents flaws, sure but you don't let your franchise player walk away (again) with the aftermath of Lebron's departure still lingering in Cleveland.

Assuming they pick Embiid, the thought of Irving and Embiid is every small markets GM wet dream.

[DMC]

Any point guard, I'd agree, but Kyrie is not just any PG. He's overrated and his game presents flaws, sure but you don't let your franchise player walk away (again) with the aftermath of Lebron's departure still lingering in Cleveland.

Assuming they pick Embiid, the thought of Irving and Embiid is every small markets GM wet dream.

You're equivocating terms. "Any point guard" simply means any point guard, not "just any point guard". Kyrie is a PG. He's not Magic Johnson. He's not going to be the difference maker on a championship team.

Lebron has been gone for 4 years. He's got 3 consecutive Finals appearances and 2 rings since he dumped you. At some point you have to get over it. You've had countless 1st overall picks and your last one is riding pine. Maybe you need to consider your front office as being inept. If you did that, you'd understand why James walked.

[JoeTait75]

Players don't stay because the fans are sycophants. They stay because the money is good and the front office is serious about competing. You're told your the best thing that ever happened to the game, since 8th grade, and you see that in your 1st year in the NBA, right out of high school, you're doing better than most guys who've been there for years. You have to think you're meant for bigger things than a facade of an attempt to get a championship for Cleveland... and 4 years later Cleveland is still picking in the draft. Just goes to show you they have never been serious about winning.

I'm not going to bother defending the owner or the front office, but tbh this is probably the toughest place to win in the entire NBA other than MAYBE Minnesota. The weather sucks, you're not going to get premium free agents, there's no tradition of winning... it's not easy to build something here, it just isn't.

[DPG21920]

Sure, but with 3 number one picks and enough money to pay guys (even under the luxury tax)they should be damn better than they are. It's not the city, its an incompetent front office tbh..

If Kyrie wants max you shop him and start making better decisions. It's time to clean house and set a tone. Just because you've made past mistakes, you don't double down on dumb. Start doing the right things, live with the short term consequences (if there is any) and start building the right way.

[DMC]

I'm not going to bother defending the owner or the front office, but tbh this is probably the toughest place to win in the entire NBA other than MAYBE Minnesota. The weather sucks, you're not going to get premium free agents, there's no tradition of winning... it's not easy to build something here, it just isn't.

And it's a testament to the fact that most early lottery picks don't make a big difference in the league. Now and again you might see a guy like Lebron, maybe once or twice in a 20 year span, maybe. If he knows how good he is, and Cleveland made no bones about it, then he's bound to want to maximize his potential and like you said, he's not going to do that in Cleveland since greatness isn't often defined by your game, but your results.

There are teams with far worse luck than Cleveland and who do far better. It's not like SA is a landing zone for big name free agents.

[JoeTait75]

Sure, but with 3 number one picks and enough money to pay guys (even under the luxury tax)they should be damn better than they are. It's not the city, its an incompetent front office tbh.

They have not helped themselves, no. At the same time though, this was never going to be a quick turnaround. tbh, this was basically an expansion team the year after LeBron left (not blaming LeBron, just saying.) They had to start from scratch. Young teams generally don't win, with some notable exceptions. It takes a long time to start winning and stop winning in this league.

[DMC]

Tbh, LeGone is the only reason Cleveland ever became expected to even try to win. After he left, Dan Gilbert opened his pie hole and said stupid shit, now the entire franchise is a joke. You could fill the roster with 1st overall picks and never make the playoffs, and that's in the fucking East. That's pretty shitty.

[DPG21920]

They have not helped themselves, no. At the same time though, this was never going to be a quick turnaround. tbh, this was basically an expansion team the year after LeBron left (not blaming LeBron, just saying.) They had to start from scratch. Young teams generally don't win, with some notable exceptions. It takes a long time to start winning and stop winning in this league.

I disagree. This is one of the worst conferences of all time. With competent drafting (since Lebron left, you've had Kyrie, and drafted :lol Bennett & Thompson) and some average FA signings you should have been competing for the playoffs.


CLE, in the EAST, had been gifted possibly the easiest and cheapest route to 'winning' in any sport that I can remember.

2013: #1 overall pick used on Bennett
2012: #4 overall pick used on Waiters
2011: #1 overall pick used on Kyrie AND #4 overall pick used on Thompson

I mean, that is absurd. That is an abundance of cheap top talent potential (which markets like SA/CLE need). It has nothing to do with "taking a long time". CLE just blew it. When you combine that with the fact they have cap space, tradeable assets & played in a conference where 38-44 gets you into the playoffs, there is no other excuses tbh..

[DMC]

I disagree. This is one of the worst conferences of all time. With competent drafting (since Lebron left, you've had Kyrie, and drafted :lol Bennett & Thompson) and some average FA signings you should have been competing for the playoffs.


CLE, in the EAST, had been gifted possibly the easiest and cheapest route to 'winning' in any sport that I can remember.

2013: #1 overall pick used on Bennett
2012: #4 overall pick used on Waiters
2011: #1 overall pick used on Kyrie AND #4 overall pick used on Thompson

I mean, that is absurd. That is an abundance of cheap top talent potential (which markets like SA/CLE need). It has nothing to do with "taking a long time". CLE just blew it. When you combine that with the fact they have cap space, tradeable assets & played in a conference where 38-44 gets you into the playoffs, there is no other excuses tbh..

Pretty sure Gilbert's son is also picking the players.

[mudyez]

in a small market, all star players thay want to resign are worthy of max contracts.

pay kyrie, draft embiid, trade waiters for a rotation player, pray embiid stays when his contract is up and go from there!

[Chinook]

IIRC Windhorst thinks they'll offer him the max and if he tries to pull a LeBron and asks a shorter deal with an opt-out they'll go ahead and shop him.

This hardly compares to 2006. Lebron legitimately asked for a short deal back then. Now, the Cavs have to choose whether to give their ONE five-year extension to Irving or save it for whomever they draft this year or even Waiters/Bennett if they blow up. If anything, Kyrie is the one who stands the bigger risk of feeling slighted. Now, Irving may ask for a PO for this final year, but it would be silly for the Cavs to be upset with that. Most "star" players get POs. Duncan has one next year, and he's not going to another team. Durant, Westbrook and Curry are the exceptions to the rules.

But I don't get it. The Cavs don't have to worry about him walking. The only way Irving has any control over where he goes is if he signs his QO next summer. (That'd both make him a UFA the following summer and give him a de-facto no-trade clause for 2015-2016.) Otherwise, he's going to be in Cleveland for a while if the Cavs want him to be.

[m>s]

i wouldn't pay him max money either. it's not like their record can suffer much if he goes..but with him taking up a huge chunk of the cap they'll never get any better either. they need several more pieces to be a good team.

[illusioNtEk]

Kyrie Irving will continue to improve, future elite in the making I must say. His ability to get to the rim is amazing the last few months. 14-15 Million per year is what this guy deserves. I think it's real foolish for the CAVS to go public like this... If I was Irving i'd try to go to LA or NY and get paid.

[baseline bum]

I disagree. This is one of the worst conferences of all time. With competent drafting (since Lebron left, you've had Kyrie, and drafted :lol Bennett & Thompson) and some average FA signings you should have been competing for the playoffs.


CLE, in the EAST, had been gifted possibly the easiest and cheapest route to 'winning' in any sport that I can remember.

2013: #1 overall pick used on Bennett
2012: #4 overall pick used on Waiters
2011: #1 overall pick used on Kyrie AND #4 overall pick used on Thompson

I mean, that is absurd. That is an abundance of cheap top talent potential (which markets like SA/CLE need). It has nothing to do with "taking a long time". CLE just blew it. When you combine that with the fact they have cap space, tradeable assets & played in a conference where 38-44 gets you into the playoffs, there is no other excuses tbh..

DPG Bernoullin niggas in the paint. God, if I was GM my picks would have been

2011: #1 Irving, #4 Valaciunas
2012: #4 Thomas Robinson or Harrison Barnes (not sure which of those two I would have chosen)
2013: #1 Nerlens Noel

Not trying to sound smart after the fact, as Valaciunas at #4 was a completely obvious pick with Williams and Kanter off the board. And yeah, Thomas Robinson looks like a bust, though I'd still rather have him over Waiters. As for 2013, everyone figured that draft to be devoid of talent outside Noel, and one year later everyone was right. That was the kind of draft where you take a huge chance on a guy like Noel since he was the only player who looked to have all-star potential at the time. This year you could reasonably pass on Embiid because of injury concerns with guys like Wiggins, Parker, Exum, and Randle available, but last year wasn't a draft to be conservative in.

[JoeTait75]

DPG Bernoullin niggas in the paint. God, if I was GM my picks would have been

2011: #1 Irving, #4 Valaciunas
2012: #4 Thomas Robinson or Harrison Barnes (not sure which of those two I would have chosen)
2013: #1 Nerlens Noel

Not trying to sound smart after the fact, as Valaciunas at #4 was a completely obvious pick with Williams and Kanter off the board. And yeah, Thomas Robinson looks like a bust, though I'd still rather have him over Waiters. As for 2013, everyone figured that draft to be devoid of talent outside Noel, and one year later everyone was right. That was the kind of draft where you take a huge chance on a guy like Noel since he was the only player who looked to have all-star potential at the time. This year you could reasonably pass on Embiid because of injury concerns with guys like Wiggins, Parker, Exum, and Randle available, but last year wasn't a draft to be conservative in.

Valanciunas over Tristan Thompson is and was a complete no-brainer, I agree. That was Chris Grant at his Chris Grantian worst- trying to be the smartest guy in the room instead of making the obvious choice.

But I take Waiters over Thomas Robinson every time. Waiters has a chance to be a really good player; Robinson is JAG. Moot point, really, because I would've taken Harrison Barnes with that pick.

I don't think any of us really disagree; I'm just curious as to how good anyone thinks the Cavaliers ought to be right now. As good as Washington? Charlotte? To me that's their ceiling at this point even if they make all the right moves from 2011-.

[baseline bum]

Valanciunas over Tristan Thompson is and was a complete no-brainer, I agree. That was Chris Grant at his Chris Grantian worst- trying to be the smartest guy in the room instead of making the obvious choice.

But I take Waiters over Thomas Robinson every time. Waiters has a chance to be a really good player; Robinson is JAG. Moot point, really, because I would've taken Harrison Barnes with that pick.

I don't think any of us really disagree; I'm just curious as to how good anyone thinks the Cavaliers ought to be right now. As good as Washington? Charlotte? To me that's their ceiling at this point even if they make all the right moves from 2011-.

They should be ahead of Atlanta and Charlotte at the very least with all those picks.

[Chinook]

Valanciunas over Tristan Thompson is and was a complete no-brainer, I agree. That was Chris Grant at his Chris Grantian worst- trying to be the smartest guy in the room instead of making the obvious choice.

But I take Waiters over Thomas Robinson every time. Waiters has a chance to be a really good player; Robinson is JAG. Moot point, really, because I would've taken Harrison Barnes with that pick.

I don't think any of us really disagree; I'm just curious as to how good anyone thinks the Cavaliers ought to be right now. As good as Washington? Charlotte? To me that's their ceiling at this point even if they make all the right moves from 2011-.

I don't see why they shouldn't be as good as Golden State is. They could have had a promising young core while also having some good vets to put around them. They were able to stockpile assets well, but they haven't seemed to make any use of them.

2011: Cavs would be justifiably bad since they only added Irving (assuming Valanciunas stayed over). They may have even been a little worse and gotten a better pick. Won't project that, though. They use cap space to get assets. Fill roster with cheap vets that don't prevent tanking but are great in the locker room.

2012: Draft Barnes or Drummond (Andre had top-four talent but underwhelmed in college.) No need to trade for Zeller with Valanciunas coming over, but nothing was horrible about that. TRADE VAREJAO WHEN HIS STOCK WAS HIGH. To this day, I have no idea why they didn't do that. With a core of Irving/Barnes/Valanciunas, the Cavs would probably be ready to go for it in 2013.

2013: Don't bring back Mike Brown. They'd probably have their pick of coaches with the talent they had the restraint Gilbert would have shown. Draft Noel or Oladipo. Victor would be my choice. Karasev was a fine pick. In FA, no need for Bynum, since they would have actually drafted a center or two. Instead, sign a vet like Ellis, Iggy or Millsap. Then, try to acquire a vet like Gasol, Afflalo or Dudley (:lol now, but smart then).


None of that is unrealistic or took tremendous foresight. That team would have had talent, experience and versatility. Having a legit coach is the biggest improvement. There'd be no need to hand Kyrie the keys to the franchise. Had Cleveland done even some of this, they should have been able to be where the Bobcats are. Even with what they did, they should have boxed out Atlanta. Had they done enough of these things, however, I think they could have been at least where Toronto is now, but with much more upside.

[lefty]

Kyrie is not a max contract player yet

[Buddy Mignon]

It's both, tbh.... Cavs are a joke, and Kyrie is a cancer who hogs the ball, plays no D, and is despised by his teammates....

I know its a holiday weekend and all... but that phrase should never leave the lips of a fucking clippa fan.

[Clipper Nation]

I know its a holiday weekend and all... but that phrase should never leave the lips of a fucking clippa fan.
"You've got sunglasses and a tan like it's hot, but you're pretty cool and I like that a lot...wheeeee!"

I didn't think he was capable, but Naruto can freestyle too. I didn't think he had any street cred, but then he goes and busts a rhyme like he was Jay motherf'in Z. Just goes to show you that Naruto must've grew up in the 8 mile section of Konoha.

[HemisfairArena]

John Wall and Lilliard are the max PG's of the future. Irving is a good player but needs to hit that next level.

[baseline bum]

John Wall and Lilliard are the max PG's of the future. Irving is a good player but needs to hit that next level.

What makes Wall a max player and not Irving?