Has Duncan already passed bird...

[UZER]

On the all time great list?

[Sportstudi]

On the all time great list?

Bird was nasty, just nasty. Watched him in the 80's. People nowadays (especially the young ones) have often no clue how good he was. He was beast. However, Duncan's prime is definitely up there. And his longevity only counts for him (of course, it's hard to blame Bird for his back). Right now I'm having them pretty close, but with a slight favor for Duncan. If Duncan wins it this year, this debate is done, at least for me.

[baseline bum]

Bird was nasty, just nasty. Watched him in the 80's. People nowadays (especially the young ones) have often no clue how good he was. He was beast. However, Duncan's prime is up there. And his longevity only counts for him (of course, it's hard to blame Bird for his back). Right now I'm having them pretty close, but with a slight favor for Duncan. If Duncan wins it this year, this debate is done, at least for me.

Crazy how amazing Bird was considering he destroyed his back in fucking 1983 putting in a driveway at his house in Indiana.

[Sportstudi]

Crazy how amazing Bird was considering he destroyed his back in fucking 1983 putting in a driveway at his house in Indiana.

In the mid 80's the only player who could hold Bird's jock was Magic. Jordan wasn't up there yet. In the late 80's, yes. But before, no.

[UZER]

I watched bird play. Yes he was a beast, yes he was nasty. I love bird, but longevity, plus one more ring puts Duncan ahead of bird.

I hated him as a player, but was sad the day he retired. He was a fierce competitor.

[Sportstudi]

I watched bird play. Yes he was a beast, yes he was nasty. I love bird, but longevity, plus one more ring puts Duncan ahead of bird.

I hated him as a player, but was sad the day he retired. He was a fierce competitor.

That's what I said. I have Duncan ahead of Bird right now, albeit not by that much. However, as stated above, if Duncan wins again this year, this debate is settled for me forever.

[UZER]

That's what I said. I have Bird ahead of Duncan right now, albeit not by that much. However, as stated above, if Duncan wins again this year, this debate is settled for me forever.

I meant him already having one more than bird puts him ahead of bird right now.

People that brush off the discussion in favor of bird without really comparing their careers and accomplishments are doing a disservice to Duncan....Not referring to you Sportsudi.

[Sportstudi]

I meant him already having one more than bird puts him ahead of bird right now.

People that brush off the discussion in favor of bird without really comparing their careers and accomplishments are doing a disservice to Duncan....Not referring to you Sportsudi.

I changed while you were replying :toast just a typo of mine. Check my original post. Again, I have Duncan ahead of Bird, although it's close.

[Franklin]

duncan is safely locked top5 of all time imho dude surpassed Bird years ago.

[Katherine Robinson]

Duncan is at the bottom half of the top 10 and that is set in stone until another 3-4 people surpass him.

[midnightpulp]

They're so close statistically and hardware wise, it's too close to call. That's why I like putting greats in tiers where each player is essentially equal to one another (post merger).

Tier 1: Michael, Kareem, Magic.

Tier 2: Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Lebron

Tier 3: Kobe, Hakeem, Dirk (I know this addition will receive criticism, but Dirk is superior to Kobe in pretty much every statistical measurement there is, from all around "raw" per game stats, advanced metrics, clutch stats, Finals stats, etc).

Tier 4: KG, Barkley, Robinson, Wade, Dr J, Moses Malone.

Etc, etc.

[spurraider21]

i have no clue how to gauge the prehistoric stars like wilt, russell, baylor, west, oscar

[baseline bum]

They're so close statistically and hardware wise, it's too close to call. That's why I like putting greats in tiers where each player is essentially equal to one another (post merger).

Tier 1: Michael, Kareem, Magic.

Tier 2: Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Lebron

Tier 3: Kobe, Hakeem, Dirk (I know this addition will receive criticism, but Dirk is superior to Kobe in pretty much every statistical measurement there is, from all around "raw" per game stats, advanced metrics, clutch stats, Finals stats, etc).

Tier 4: KG, Barkley, Robinson, Wade, Dr J, Moses Malone.

Etc, etc.

Olajuwon needs to be in tier 2.

[Clipper Nation]

They're so close statistically and hardware wise, it's too close to call. That's why I like putting greats in tiers where each player is essentially equal to one another (post merger).

Tier 1: Michael, Kareem, Magic.

Tier 2: Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Lebron

Tier 3: Kobe, Hakeem, Dirk (I know this addition will receive criticism, but Dirk is superior to Kobe in pretty much every statistical measurement there is, from all around "raw" per game stats, advanced metrics, clutch stats, Finals stats, etc).

Tier 4: KG, Barkley, Robinson, Wade, Dr J, Moses Malone.

Etc, etc.
Why is a role player on tier 3 with Hakeem and Dirk?

[Buddy Mignon]

This one is close. Duncan has the rings and longevity edge, but Bird has the skills and toughness edge. Bird was a better player and played against much better competition. Bird beat D. J... Magic, Thomas, and Jordan... hell you can even throw in Hakeem and Samson. Since you guys put so much stock in MVP's I guess you can cancel out Duncan's edge in rings due to Bird's 3MVP's. Bird is recognized as a Legend and you won't find many people giving Jim the edge over Bird. I guess it all depends on how you guys spin it to your favor. But if I'm going into hostile territory in a game seven I'm taking Larry Legend with me over Jim.

[UZER]

They're so close statistically and hardware wise, it's too close to call. That's why I like putting greats in tiers where each player is essentially equal to one another (post merger).

Tier 1: Michael, Kareem, Magic.

Tier 2: Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Lebron

Tier 3: Kobe, Hakeem, Dirk (I know this addition will receive criticism, but Dirk is superior to Kobe in pretty much every statistical measurement there is, from all around "raw" per game stats, advanced metrics, clutch stats, Finals stats, etc).

Tier 4: KG, Barkley, Robinson, Wade, Dr J, Moses Malone.

Etc, etc.

It's amazing listening to talking heads just blindly state bird is ahead of Duncan for nostalgic or media bias reasons without really comparing their careers.

It's like they are protecting birds legacy by keeping Duncan behind him for personal reasons. They don't want a Spur to surpass the great Bird in their nba lore.

[Horse]

Bird was great but Duncan was great on both ends of the floor that's the difference for me also why dirk can't be an all timer.

[Thebesteva]

I never watched much of Bird's game so its unfair for me to really answer, but I would say Duncan is above him. Guys fucking incredible as much as I hated him a few years ago, he's a proven winner.

[Infinite_limit]

Duncan is about to boot Bill Russell out of the Top 6 but I don't see him getting higher than that without atleast another Finals MVP

[Buddy Mignon]

Bird was great but Duncan was great on both ends of the floor that's the difference for me also why dirk can't be an all timer.

Because Dirk wore the choker tag for most of his career.

[100%duncan]

Yes because of the reasons everyone has already stated.

[Clipper Nation]

It's amazing listening to talking heads just blindly state bird is ahead of Duncan for nostalgic or media bias reasons without really comparing their careers.

It's like they are protecting birds legacy by keeping Duncan behind him for personal reasons. They don't want a Spur to surpass the great Bird in their nba lore.
They pull the same shit with Dad Killer too, tbh.... the problem is, thanks to Stern's lack of creativity and how screwed the league was before the '80s, the league's marketing is so heavily tied to Bird, Magic, and DK that those guys' legacies are scrubbed clean by Media and their rankings aren't allowed to be questioned.... this trickles down to the fans and prevents an honest discussion of the all-time rankings from ever happening, as people are too blinded by nostalgia and Media brainwashing to put their emotions aside....

It cracks me up whenever people use the 2011 Finals to try to push LeBron down the all-time list, but Bird's atrocious 1981 Finals is completely ignored like it never even happened :lol

[Kidd K]

I've had Duncan above Bird for a few years, but Bird is literally only one spot below Duncan on my GOAT list (I have Shaq above Timmy, then Wilt, Magic, Russell, Jabaar, Jordan).

So Bird is there, you just can't discount the greater longevity and more titles for Timmy. With another ring, Timmy goes above Shaq (can be argued he already is or is at least tied with now yet another Finals appearance) and Wilt (if he performs very well), and is arguably on par with or above Magic too.

Timmy ringing again will give him an amazing legacy that's only truly topped by MJ, Russell, and Kareem.

[DMC]

Duncan is at the bottom half of the top 10 and that is set in stone until another 3-4 people surpass him.
How could it be set in stone if he's about to play a Finals?

[UZER]

Duncan is at the bottom half of the top 10 and that is set in stone until another 3-4 people surpass him.

This thread is gonna go off track to Kobe v Duncan. Hope not.

But what other players are ahead of Duncan? And where is Bird on that list?

[Malik Hairston]

Bird and Magic are 2 of the most overrated players of all-time, tbh..

Played in a league where 25% of the players were White Americans, and neither player had any impact on the defensive end..they benefit greatly from the hype of the 80s, as they were the faces of the league when it was revived following the NBA's embarrassing 1970's era..

[Arcadian]

Yes. Duncan is the greatest forward of all time, and that includes both SF and PF. His prime was better than any other forward's prime. Whether you base it on skill or accomplishments, it doesn't even matter. Either way he's the best.

Comparing Duncan and Bird specifically, the choice is easy because of Tim's 2-way dominance.

[Katherine Robinson]

How could it be set in stone if he's about to play a Finals?

His contribution would have to be unpredictably high for it to push him up a few notches.

[Cry Havoc]

If Duncan rings again, he's gotta be considered for a top 4, and top 6 at worst. Insane longevity matched only by Kareem. He is still the anchor of one of the best defenses in the NBA.

This Finals won't define Duncan's career, but it could put him in ultra-elite company with the other top players. If LeBron wins, probably the same thing happens with him. One way or another, we're about to see someone vault into the Top 5 all-time of the NBA.

[UZER]

His contribution would have to be unpredictably high for it to push him up a few notches.

Disagree. He just has to be solid on D and have a few big scoring moments like he did in the overtime against OKC. Doesn't need huge numbers. He already done that in his career.

[Katherine Robinson]

Disagree. He just has to be solid on D and have a few big scoring moments like he did in the overtime against OKC. Doesn't need huge numbers. He already done that in his career.

Going up a notch is moving canyons aside, he is below the likes of O'Neal who is his obstacle into the top 5. This will not change without a huge contribution or another very strong individual playoff run.

[hater]

long ago. Bird is one of the most overrated players ever. Mainly because of his skin color tbh

[UZER]

Going up a notch is moving canyons aside, he is below the likes of O'Neal who is his obstacle into the top 5. This will not change without a huge contribution or another very strong individual playoff run.

You mean like shaqs finals contributions to #4?

[Malik Hairston]

Duncan's 2014 playoff run:

#1 on the team in PER
#2 on the team in on/off metrics(behind Splitter)
#1 on the team in WS
#2 on the team in PPG(behind Parker)
#1 on the team in Rebounds
#1 on the team in Blocks
#1 on the team in Minutes played

Doesn't really make sense to ignore this run if you're going to include Shaq's 4th, Kobe's 1st, etc..

[TDMVPDPOY]

if duncan rings this season

lebron has no chance of being top3, let alone top5...he will be forever be below duncan no matter what he does after this season

the current crop of players besides lebron has no business or unlikely foreseeable future of reaching top10

as for hakeem, his at the bottom half of top10, those 2 prime year championship runs is not enough to push him up into top5, its not like he played like that his whole career

gap between around 5-8 is not that much a difference

[Katherine Robinson]

You mean like shaqs finals contributions to #4?

More like Shaq defending his title, multiple times at that.

[UZER]

More like Shaq defending his title, multiple times at that.

So Bird defended his title? You have Bird above Duncan?

[m>s]

long ago. Bird is one of the most overrated players ever. Mainly because of his skin color tbh

so fucking dumb. bird literally put up lebron type numbers for most of his career. he was probably the best passer of all time who wasn't a PG. dude's defense is highly underrated..he was crafty, smart, and had quick hands and made clutch defensive plays. dude was twice the scorer duncan ever was and more efficient judging by TS% even as a perimeter player. i guess you could maybe make the argument for either player, but "bird is one of the most overrated players ever" just makes you look dumb. there literally isn't a measurable statistic that confirms your opinion.

[spurraider21]

is there a perception on this forum that Bird was a bad defender? weird

[Katherine Robinson]

So Bird defended his title? You have Bird above Duncan?

One must pass the immediate milestone to intercept the next. O'Neal and Duncan have existed in the same era, this means they are comparable in this way directly. Bird, however, existed at a different era and comparisons will have to change as well.

As it stands, O'Neal has shown he deserves his rank over Duncan and it's questionable if Duncan can even be directly after.

[UZER]

One must pass the immediate milestone to intercept the next. O'Neal and Duncan have existed in the same era, this means they are comparable in this way directly. Bird, however, existed at a different era and comparisons will have to change as well.

As it stands, O'Neal has shown he deserves his rank over Duncan and it's questionable if Duncan can even be directly after.

Man that's a lot of jibberish troll spinning to avoid the question.

[Katherine Robinson]

Man that's a lot of jibberish troll spinning to avoid the question.

O'Neal over Duncan is now trolling? What a world we live in.

[UZER]

O'Neal over Duncan is now trolling? What a world we live in.

Nope, you still haven't answered the question.

You made an argument that shaqs back to backs put him ahead of Duncan, which in itself is debatable. Based on your argument I said Bird never went back to back so is he ahead of Duncan, and you answered it by spinning it into Shaq is better than Duncan which is not what I asked.

[Katherine Robinson]

Nope, you still haven't answered the question.

You made an argument that shaqs back to backs put him ahead of Duncan, which in itself is debatable. Based on your argument I said Bird never went back to back so is he ahead of Duncan, and you answered it by spinning it into Shaq is better than Duncan which is not what I asked.

I argued you compare Duncan to bird differently than Shaq because of era differences. A 80s championship says something different than a 2000s championship.

[Infinite_limit]

Played in a league where 25% of the players were White Americans
So more guys had jump shots, contained basketball IQs to run an actual offense and they cared night in & night out. No wonder it's referred to as the Golden Age.

[UZER]

I argued you compare Duncan to bird differently than Shaq because of era differences. A 80s championship says something different than a 2000s championship.

So you can't compare players from different eras since championships have different meaning, but when compiling a list for comparison, Duncan is for sure in the back end on top ten all time and cannot climb.

So you can or can't compare? Which one is it

[Katherine Robinson]

So you can't compare players from different eras since championships have different meaning, but when compiling a list for comparison, Duncan is for sure in the back end on top ten all time and cannot climb.

So you can or can't compare? Which one is it

He can definitely climb up by doing the unlikely. That being said, he is behind O'Neal for the moment.

[Infinite_limit]

He can definitely climb up by doing the unlikely. That being said, he is behind O'Neal for the moment.
In terms of pure dominance at any single period of time, Shaq is Top 3. Along with MJ & Wilt

But judging his entire career. There are easy targets
- His free throw shooting
- One of the worst work ethics for Elite players
- He abandoned Orlando to run away from MJ and won titles for a franchise that won before and after him
- 2 seasons with the Suns backfired and the final 2 seasons with Cavs & Celtics were downright embarrassing
- Yes we credit Shaq for his passing but ultimately how talented & focused was the guy? Or was he just the biggest body


Shaq really should have retired after the Suns. If not earlier. I also have a difficult time putting 4 Lakers in the Top 6-7 players of All Time. The franchise doesn't even have the most titles. Hell it could be 5 Lakers in the Top 8 depending on where you have Kobe.

[Arcadian]

^ No rational person would have Kobe in the top 8, so I wouldn't worry about oversaturating the list with Lakers. In their defense, they are an original NBA franchise and a close second to Boston in titles. And Wilt and Kareem both played for the Lakers past their primes, so they only partially count.

[mercos]

Duncan passed Bird with his fourth title in 2007 tbh. Duncan won more titles in a more competitive era. He was a better defender than Bird. He was more durable than Bird. I'm not really sure where Bird trumps Duncan outside of nostalgia.

[ambchang]

Comparing Bird to Duncan has the same elements of comparing Shaq to Duncan.

Both Shaq and Bird had extremely high peaks (some of the highest in NBA history), but those peaks were only for a few seasons. Their off peaks were still best of all time worthy though, but overall, it wasn't all that long.

Duncan's peak wasn't as high, but his drop off wasn't as dramatic either.

Duncan's also much better on defense than either one of them. Shaq's defense (along with Fisher) was actually what made careers for guys like Bibby, and Stoudemire. Bird probably had the worst defense (along with Magic) amongst the top 10 all time players.

In the end, it really depends on how much weight you put on absolute peaks vs. longevity. People who have seen Bird at his most dominant will understand that he bullied the league. He was as dominant in the mid 80s as Jordan was in the 90s. Duncan really never had that peak, even at his best, he had to share equal billing with Shaq in the early 00s, but he outlasted Shaq, and just kept on chugging.

From a purely technical perspective, Duncan has a strong case of already surpassing Bird. From a league historical and impact perspective (also nostalgic reasons), Bird still has the upper hand.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hate volume stats used as a comparison, cause duncans stats are crap compared to any of the individuals in top10

ducnan was never a volume stat padder, he get his 20/10 in limited minutes and calls it a day after securing the win...spurs do play at a slower pace during his prime years...

[lefty]

Bird is one of the most overrated players ever. Mainly because of his skin color tbh
Um no

[lefty]

Bird and Magic are 2 of the most overrated players of all-time, tbh..

Played in a league where 25% of the players were White Americans, and neither player had any impact on the defensive end..they benefit greatly from the hype of the 80s, as they were the faces of the league when it was revived following the NBA's embarrassing 1970's era..
Magic was still able to own niggas in the mid 90's when the league had more black players, and he was an overweight TOSB who hadn't played in years

First game since his retirement and almost regiters a triple double?

Not overrated

[UZER]

Just like the spurs themselves, Tim has do go above and beyond just to be in the same conversation among NBA, media, fans, historians, etc.

in the conversation of the greats, any Lakers or Celtic will be will immediately be put ahead of Duncan just because it's the Lakers and Celtics.

Hell the early 70s Knicks teams are still talked about and revered as such a great team in nba history even though they only won 2 in 4 years. But since its the Knicks, they still get mentioned 40 years later. Other teams have a chip here or there, but none get mentioned as many times as that Knicks team.

If Duncan played in NY, LA, Bow, CHI, he would be top 5 with no questions asked.

[The Batman]

Bird and Magic are 2 of the most overrated players of all-time, tbh..

Played in a league where 25% of the players were White Americans, and neither player had any impact on the defensive end..they benefit greatly from the hype of the 80s, as they were the faces of the league when it was revived following the NBA's embarrassing 1970's era..

Harlem while hyping this era =

https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/thumb/851947026.gif?1399525770

[Clipper Nation]

You on Twitter to Chris Bosh, Ochocinco and Fatmelo =


https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/thumb/851947026.gif?1399525770

[The Batman]

You on Twitter to Chris Bosh, Ochocinco and Fatmelo =
Didn't they all reach the conference finals? Yet you begged for a 3rd round Virgin :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Didn't they all reach the conference finals?
Bosh didn't in Toronto when you were begging for him :downspin:

Ocho isn't even a basketball player :lol

[The Batman]

Bosh didn't in Toronto when you were begging for him :downspin:

Ocho isn't even a basketball player :lol

Isn't a conference final, a conference championship? :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Isn't a conference final, a conference championship? :lol
When you were begging for Ocho, he had never even won a playoff game, let alone make it to a CCG :lol

[Horse]

You mean like shaqs finals contributions to #4?
Who the hell would put shaq above Timmy? shaq is another one way player but atleast dirk could hit free throws. Now if he wasnt a lazy piece of shit maybe. Remember that one yr phoenix traded for him went from the #1 seed down to 3 or 4 or something then lost in the first round.

[Horse]

One must pass the immediate milestone to intercept the next. O'Neal and Duncan have existed in the same era, this means they are comparable in this way directly. Bird, however, existed at a different era and comparisons will have to change as well.

As it stands, O'Neal has shown he deserves his rank over Duncan and it's questionable if Duncan can even be directly after.

hahahahahahahah shaq had one clean title run 2000 Duncan was hurt and the refs screwed portland game 7, 2001 they were unstoppable, 2002 the refs screwed the kings And I had as much to do with 2006 as shaq did. Overrated one way lazy bastard.

[UZER]

Who the hell would put shaq above Timmy?shaq is another one way player but atleast dirk could hit free throws. Now if he wasnt a lazy piece of shit maybe. Remember that one yr phoenix traded for him went from the #1 seed down to 3 or 4 or something then lost in the first round.

Laker fan

[gameFACE]

Duncan passed Bird a long time ago. The only reason people keep Bird on their list is to include a white guy.

[Katherine Robinson]

Realist

Tad of a correction for you.