Hubie Brown on evolution of the game

[Arcadian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JttE4UT74k

Interesting take from the old man. The title of the video is pretty misleading, as he barely talks about Jordan.

[TDMVPDPOY]

is he defending beno udrihs legacy with the handcheck rule? cause beno couldnt bring the ball upcourt in the pistons finals 05

[spurraider21]

cool to hear hubie talk not censored by the network :lol

i had to rewind when i heard him say "bitchin"

[ambchang]

Been saying forever how difficult it was for perimeter players to score in the old days because of hand checking.

That said, the defenses are much more complex in today's game because opening up the perimeter plays allowed teams to have much more variety in their offenses, forcing defenses to adapt.

In other words, during the transition in the mid 00s, (ie, after the change in perimeter defense rules of banning hand check and illegal defense rule changes, but BEFORE defenses caught up), perimeter player offensive numbers, especially scoring, was highly inflated.

In today's game, defenses have caught up, and there is a tougher argument as to whether perimeter players have it easier today vs. the late 80s and most of the 90s.

[lefty]

Malik Hairston



Get in here !!!!!

[TDMVPDPOY]

but today there are better wing defenders even though its a perimeter game these days...

but those old days...a bunch of white stiffs man...

[ambchang]

but today there are better wing defenders even though its a perimeter game these days...

but those old days...a bunch of white stiffs man...

You just provided the best evidence that perimeter players have it easier now. If the rules and the perimeter defense does not favour perimeter players, how would you explain the last 3 champions and the upcoming one (regardless of whether it's the Heat or the Spurs) are all perimeter based teams on offense? How would you explain how the big men, ones as skilled as Duncan and as physically dominant as Howard, are all being marginalized and are just glorified role players? Good post scorers like Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph are all but 1st round fodder in today's league.

By that logic, in today's game, perimeter play is more efficient and more of a winning formula than interior play, and yet interior defensive schemes really hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 years (other than illegal defense and removing the defensive big man from the lane).

[313]

Someone explain to me how defenses are more complex today?

[lefty]

Someone explain to me how defenses are more complex today?
:lol this tbh

[TDMVPDPOY]

interior play today is shit cause the talent pool of big man is shit, too many of t hem bigs are drafted onto 1man teams or teams with a ballhog...

they dont get exposure cause the league has turn it into a perimeter game...they already making changes to stop hibbert with his vertical rule bullshit defense

those perimeter players u mention can always be stop by team defense or legit bigs, hence a big who puts his hands up on defense is probably 99.98% better then most bigs today who dont play defense...

but if you go do a all time league draft with any rules, 2way bigs will always be drafted ahead dominant perimeter players unless ur initials is MJ

hence a perimeter player will usually score most of their pts outside the key anyway...

[TDMVPDPOY]

ambchang a good example of no handcheck defense at its best is bruce bowen, cant use hands, no problem i use my legs

http://www.sportsargumentwiki.com/images/4/49/Bowen_kick.gif

[Clipper Nation]

Someone explain to me how defenses are more complex today?
Getting rid of the illegal defense rules allowed straight-up zone defense to be played and coaches to get more creative with their schemes.... not having to stay within "guarding distance" of poor shooters on the perimeter has enabled schemes like the strong-side and makes it easier to clog the paint....

[TDMVPDPOY]

Getting rid of the illegal defense rules allowed straight-up zone defense to be played and coaches to get more creative with their schemes.... not having to stay within "guarding distance" of poor shooters on the perimeter has enabled schemes like the strong-side and makes it easier to clog the paint....

a big inside is still a big to me, doesnt matter if his playing defense or puttin hands up is still another person down low taking up space...that in itself is also defense aka bullshit defense making up the numbers on the court...

team defense can either be relaxing with t he zone or funneling the perimeter wanker down low to ur bigs aka 07 finals spurs funneling lebron into duncan every time he drive...

now if the league made changes like increasing the length and width of the court, doesnt mean shit to t he team defense cause then that offensive player will be shooting from a longer distance then where he wanted or usually takes from previous rule changes...

[ambchang]

Someone explain to me how defenses are more complex today?

In the 80s, the league was overly simplified, with nothing but one on one defense, and in many cases, the defense was let you shoot so I can get the ball back. Watch some of the old tapes, even the Celtics, supposedly one of those blue collar grind it out teams, have suspect defenses.

In the 90s, it was simply pack the lane, with the occasional double team. Rotations were slow. People were having trouble stopping a simple Stockton to Malone pick and roll. Granted those were the best in the pick and roll in NBA history, but the fact that the Jazz went to two finals with nothing but that one play, sprinkled with an occasional Hornacek jumper tells you how complex the defensive schemes were. Early in the 90s, 3 pters haven't really caught on as a reliable weapon, so teams were very much packing the lane. Rockets changed that somewhat with the Hakeem + shooters offense, but the defenses were very much guarding a smaller area as they are now. The success of that came during the two years the 3 pt lines were shortened. The league wanted higher scoring, so they shortened the three point line to make things easier for shooters, but it backfired because defense have less area to guard, and can now recover faster.

In the early 00s, it was very much swarm the lane type of defense. Spurs and the Lakers took the Tomjonavich Rockets model, and added slashers (Kobe, Manu, Parker) to add variety to the offense. But most of the offense was still around holding the ball and making decisions in the post, and it continued all the way to the late 00s. The Weber Kings and the SSOL Suns had an effect on the change in offensive schemes, focusing on passing and outside shooting, but they do not have the necessary quickness to recover on defense after swarming the lane, ultimately making them contenders but not champions.

The Spurs saw the future of the league by looking at the Suns, and implemented more of a Weber Kings model emphasizing cuts, screens, and passes to maximize the area a defense has to guard. They ultimately couldn't pull it off as their defense wasn't really up to par, they simply lacked the quickness that can let them double down low and pop back out and recover. The Mavs, then later on the Heat, were able to do that. The Mavs used Chandler as the interior defender, but also have guys like Marion, Kidd and Carter who are long and athletic (even that late in their careers) who can make an honest attempt to crowd the lane, but still recover on their man once the ball is kicked out. The Heat, on the other hand, just have a guy call Lebron who covers the entire court at all times, add in players like Battier and Wade, and with Andersen guarding the interior, they have an athletic group that can basically constantly double the ball handler while crowding the passing lanes.

The use of zones also played an important role in the league, allowing defenses to put in all kinds of wrinkles in the game, allowing teams to set up defenses that weren't allowed previously as long as a big man is not camped in the lane for 3 seconds guarding no one.

[TDMVPDPOY]

theres a thread upstairs i want to posts in but i cant cause im banned in exile like napoleon the french faggot by his french dissident mods

that thread about jordan would dominate in this era

what a load of fkn bullshit, jordan aint dominating shit in todays league with or without handchecking rules, i dont buy into that shit cause at the end of the day his still a volume scorer/chucker no matter what era or offensive system your team runs, his going to chuck his usual fga avgs....todays perimeter defenders will make him work for his baskets, the bullshit competition he went up against in the 90s at his position or players given the role to be jordan stopper, none of those guys would hold a lick to todays perimeter defender specialists, all t he clowns that defended jordan none of them appeared on any all defensive teams.....ps. payton doesnt count, dude is a pg force to go defend someone not at his position, even though he did kept jordan below his playoff avgs when ask to...


how many of t hem SGS from the 90s not name jordan would appear on allnba/defensive teams this era or 00 era? yeh thats right, jordan played against bullshit at his position

[ambchang]

ambchang a good example of no handcheck defense at its best is bruce bowen, cant use hands, no problem i use my legs

http://www.sportsargumentwiki.com/images/4/49/Bowen_kick.gif

:lol Seriously though, Bowen is one of those rare defenders who still thrived in the mid 00's because of his quick hands, his dedication, and the borderline stuff he does. It's no coincidence that in the 00s, perimeter defenders were getting major props because they are so rare and difficult to find due to rule changes. A player like Bowen would be a value piece for a contender back in the 90s, but he wouldn't get the exposure and credit he got in the 00s. In the 80s, he wouldn't even have a job because nobody cares about defense anyways.


a big inside is still a big to me, doesnt matter if his playing defense or puttin hands up is still another person down low taking up space...that in itself is also defense aka bullshit defense making up the numbers on the court...

team defense can either be relaxing with t he zone or funneling the perimeter wanker down low to ur bigs aka 07 finals spurs funneling lebron into duncan every time he drive...

now if the league made changes like increasing the length and width of the court, doesnt mean shit to t he team defense cause then that offensive player will be shooting from a longer distance then where he wanted or usually takes from previous rule changes...

One of the major issues about bigs on the defensive end is the 3 second defensive rule. With stretch bigs that started with the Colemans and Horrys and Garnetts, lumbering bigs can no longer camp out down low, they MUST follow their man out in the perimeter, and that negates their effectiveness on the defensive end. In fact, players like Eaton, Bol and Muresan won't even be able to get a job nowadays, let alone get DPoY nominations and such. On the offensive end, a big will just get swarmed whenever he gets the ball.

Tyson was so effective because of his mobility and his ability to recover. He also sets fantastic screens and rolls to the basket very well for lobs.

[ambchang]

theres a thread upstairs i want to posts in but i cant cause im banned in exile like napoleon the french faggot by his french dissident mods

that thread about jordan would dominate in this era

what a load of fkn bullshit, jordan aint dominating shit in todays league with or without handchecking rules, i dont buy into that shit cause at the end of the day his still a volume scorer/chucker no matter what era or offensive system your team runs, his going to chuck his usual fga avgs....todays perimeter defenders will make him work for his baskets, the bullshit competition he went up against in the 90s at his position or players given the role to be jordan stopper, none of those guys would hold a lick to todays perimeter defender specialists, all t he clowns that defended jordan none of them appeared on any all defensive teams.....ps. payton doesnt count, dude is a pg force to go defend someone not at his position, even though he did kept jordan below his playoff avgs when ask to...


how many of t hem SGS from the 90s not name jordan would appear on allnba/defensive teams this era or 00 era? yeh thats right, jordan played against bullshit at his position

Not sure if you are serious or not, but Joe Dumars was an incredible defender who made the all-d team 5 times. To top it off, the entire Pistons team, a team that basically invented the defensive focused teams of the 90s, ganged up and had a specific team approach to defending Jordan.

Then there are defenders like McMillan, John Starks, Eddie Jones, Dan Marjele and Cooper. All quick and long defenders who are the prototypes for today's perimeter guys.

[Phillip]

You just provided the best evidence that perimeter players have it easier now. If the rules and the perimeter defense does not favour perimeter players, how would you explain the last 3 champions and the upcoming one (regardless of whether it's the Heat or the Spurs) are all perimeter based teams on offense? How would you explain how the big men, ones as skilled as Duncan and as physically dominant as Howard, are all being marginalized and are just glorified role players? Good post scorers like Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph are all but 1st round fodder in today's league.

By that logic, in today's game, perimeter play is more efficient and more of a winning formula than interior play, and yet interior defensive schemes really hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 years (other than illegal defense and removing the defensive big man from the lane).

General increase of athleticism I think is one thing that is definitely being ignored here, along with better 3-point shooters across the league.

As athleticism has increased, it has made it increasingly difficult to score with the low post and mid-range game, as people can double down and still get back out/rotate on the perimeter fast enough to limit the effectiveness of kick-outs to shooters. So that severely limits what post and mid range players can do, which used to be how the game was dominated back in the 70s and 80s. With that increase in athleticism, teams HAVE to be able to shoot 3s effectively, and it is evident that players/coaches see that considering 3-point shooting has steadily increased in both attempts and %s over the past 30 years.

I think that there simply is more focus at earlier ages on developing the talent of shooters and perimeter players, which is why the game is dominated more by perimeter attacks, as opposed to the defense being easier for perimeter players to attack. There simply is more overall perimeter talent than there was 20-30 years ago. That, and the youth growing up wanting to "be like Mike".

Also............. PEOPLE STILL HANDCHECK. I DON'T SEE WHY PEOPLE WANT TO IGNORE THIS OBVIOUS FACT. Yes, the rule technically changed, so you can't hand check in the most blatant, obvious manners, but basically every single time someone drives, they are still being handchecked by any remotely decent defender. Defenders just don't fully extend their arms anymore. Instead they get their bodies closer in, and hold them at the waist as they drive. This is evident when you see guys like Kobe, Wade or Durant do the "swing through" move to draw a foul. Basically every time, its because a defender is up really close and is subtly holding them at the hip, or has their arm low and ready to handcheck, so when they see that, they swing through and draw the foul.

Also, some crafty defenders will use their knees and thighs and basically make subtle lower body contact with drivers to hold them back a bit.

[Phillip]

In the 80s, the league was overly simplified, with nothing but one on one defense, and in many cases, the defense was let you shoot so I can get the ball back. Watch some of the old tapes, even the Celtics, supposedly one of those blue collar grind it out teams, have suspect defenses.

:toast

Too many people live off of nostalgia and don't want to acknowledge this. Defense in the 80s was basically nonexistent, until the Bad Boys, who were more so focused on just being physical and intimidating people, as opposed to true, well executed defense.

[Phillip]

In the 80s, the league was overly simplified, with nothing but one on one defense, and in many cases, the defense was let you shoot so I can get the ball back. Watch some of the old tapes, even the Celtics, supposedly one of those blue collar grind it out teams, have suspect defenses.

In the 90s, it was simply pack the lane, with the occasional double team. Rotations were slow. People were having trouble stopping a simple Stockton to Malone pick and roll. Granted those were the best in the pick and roll in NBA history, but the fact that the Jazz went to two finals with nothing but that one play, sprinkled with an occasional Hornacek jumper tells you how complex the defensive schemes were. Early in the 90s, 3 pters haven't really caught on as a reliable weapon, so teams were very much packing the lane. Rockets changed that somewhat with the Hakeem + shooters offense, but the defenses were very much guarding a smaller area as they are now. The success of that came during the two years the 3 pt lines were shortened. The league wanted higher scoring, so they shortened the three point line to make things easier for shooters, but it backfired because defense have less area to guard, and can now recover faster.

In the early 00s, it was very much swarm the lane type of defense. Spurs and the Lakers took the Tomjonavich Rockets model, and added slashers (Kobe, Manu, Parker) to add variety to the offense. But most of the offense was still around holding the ball and making decisions in the post, and it continued all the way to the late 00s. The Weber Kings and the SSOL Suns had an effect on the change in offensive schemes, focusing on passing and outside shooting, but they do not have the necessary quickness to recover on defense after swarming the lane, ultimately making them contenders but not champions.

The Spurs saw the future of the league by looking at the Suns, and implemented more of a Weber Kings model emphasizing cuts, screens, and passes to maximize the area a defense has to guard. They ultimately couldn't pull it off as their defense wasn't really up to par, they simply lacked the quickness that can let them double down low and pop back out and recover. The Mavs, then later on the Heat, were able to do that. The Mavs used Chandler as the interior defender, but also have guys like Marion, Kidd and Carter who are long and athletic (even that late in their careers) who can make an honest attempt to crowd the lane, but still recover on their man once the ball is kicked out. The Heat, on the other hand, just have a guy call Lebron who covers the entire court at all times, add in players like Battier and Wade, and with Andersen guarding the interior, they have an athletic group that can basically constantly double the ball handler while crowding the passing lanes.

The use of zones also played an important role in the league, allowing defenses to put in all kinds of wrinkles in the game, allowing teams to set up defenses that weren't allowed previously as long as a big man is not camped in the lane for 3 seconds guarding no one.

This post as a whole actually, deserves props :toast :toast :toast

[ambchang]

General increase of athleticism I think is one thing that is definitely being ignored here, along with better 3-point shooters across the league.

As athleticism has increased, it has made it increasingly difficult to score with the low post and mid-range game, as people can double down and still get back out/rotate on the perimeter fast enough to limit the effectiveness of kick-outs to shooters. So that severely limits what post and mid range players can do, which used to be how the game was dominated back in the 70s and 80s. With that increase in athleticism, teams HAVE to be able to shoot 3s effectively, and it is evident that players/coaches see that considering 3-point shooting has steadily increased in both attempts and %s over the past 30 years.

I think that there simply is more focus at earlier ages on developing the talent of shooters and perimeter players, which is why the game is dominated more by perimeter attacks, as opposed to the defense being easier for perimeter players to attack. There simply is more overall perimeter talent than there was 20-30 years ago. That, and the youth growing up wanting to "be like Mike".

Also............. PEOPLE STILL HANDCHECK. I DON'T SEE WHY PEOPLE WANT TO IGNORE THIS OBVIOUS FACT. Yes, the rule technically changed, so you can't hand check in the most blatant, obvious manners, but basically every single time someone drives, they are still being handchecked by any remotely decent defender. Defenders just don't fully extend their arms anymore. Instead they get their bodies closer in, and hold them at the waist as they drive. This is evident when you see guys like Kobe, Wade or Durant do the "swing through" move to draw a foul. Basically every time, its because a defender is up really close and is subtly holding them at the hip, or has their arm low and ready to handcheck, so when they see that, they swing through and draw the foul.

Also, some crafty defenders will use their knees and thighs and basically make subtle lower body contact with drivers to hold them back a bit.

Yes, athleticism plays a big role in the change of the game, but it should have the same effect in the post as well as the perimeter. The general increase in 3 pt shooting are a few fold:
1) Players get more return on the shot, so they practice harder on it. The harder they practice, the better they get
2) The Rockets really showed that surrounding a dominant big man with accurate and quick three point shooters is the way to go, so teams like the Spurs and Lakers copied that model, won championships, and more teams see the value of 3 pt shooting, and started designing plays around that shot

That said, I don't really agree with the increase in athleticism causing a downfall in post play. If anything, it should increase it (assuming athleticism of big men increases as well), as long as everything else remains equal. But everything else is not equal, because the rules have changed. The handcheck is one major thing that allowed perimeter play, but the defensive three coupled with stretch bigs are the other issues for bigs. With shooting bigs in the game, and with the defensive 3 seconds, bigs can no longer camp in the lane. On the other hand, a perimeter friendly game allows players to drive into the lane much easier, but if your big man is in the lane, it allows the big on the defense to jump in and stop your drive. These two factors significantly reduced the role a big man plays on both end of the court, rendering them essentially useless.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Not sure if you are serious or not, but Joe Dumars was an incredible defender who made the all-d team 5 times. To top it off, the entire Pistons team, a team that basically invented the defensive focused teams of the 90s, ganged up and had a specific team approach to defending Jordan.

Then there are defenders like McMillan, John Starks, Eddie Jones, Dan Marjele and Cooper. All quick and long defenders who are the prototypes for today's perimeter guys.

was merely talkin about jordans first 3peat till end of 2nd 3peat during his prime/peak years winning, not when he was a shitbag didnt win shit...

those later guys u mention...they are scrubs man, jordan still put up 30 on them

[spurraider21]

:lol comparing today's "subtle hand checking" to what was used in the 80's/90's

[Phillip]

Yes, athleticism plays a big role in the change of the game, but it should have the same effect in the post as well as the perimeter. The general increase in 3 pt shooting are a few fold:
1) Players get more return on the shot, so they practice harder on it. The harder they practice, the better they get
2) The Rockets really showed that surrounding a dominant big man with accurate and quick three point shooters is the way to go, so teams like the Spurs and Lakers copied that model, won championships, and more teams see the value of 3 pt shooting, and started designing plays around that shot

3s these days don't come off of dumping it down low anymore. Most come from 3 sources. 1) Dribble penetration 2) Transition 3) Off Ball movement. It's too easy now to double down in the post and get back out.


That said, I don't really agree with the increase in athleticism causing a downfall in post play. If anything, it should increase it (assuming athleticism of big men increases as well), as long as everything else remains equal.

Low post scoring doesn't need much athletic ability, much like jump shooting. Athleticism helps A LOT with things such as defense, off ball movement, and penetration. But with post scoring? It doesn't help nearly as much, unless you are a guy like Shaq, which most people aren't.


But everything else is not equal, because the rules have changed. The handcheck is one major thing that allowed perimeter play, but the defensive three coupled with stretch bigs are the other issues for bigs. With shooting bigs in the game, and with the defensive 3 seconds, bigs can no longer camp in the lane. On the other hand, a perimeter friendly game allows players to drive into the lane much easier, but if your big man is in the lane, it allows the big on the defense to jump in and stop your drive. These two factors significantly reduced the role a big man plays on both end of the court, rendering them essentially useless.

I definitely do agree with this overall. I wasn't trying to say that the increase of athleticism was the only or main thing that limits effectiveness of post players, just that it often gets overlooked.

[Phillip]

:lol comparing today's "subtle hand checking" to what was used in the 80's/90's

any decent scorer can handle handchecking fine.

[spurraider21]

any decent scorer can handle handchecking fine.
i'm doubtful that some of the modern day decent scorers would have translated that well in previous eras, especially today's guards that dont have jump shots

[bulakenyo]

The hand checking in basketball must have been really blatant in the 1980s.

I saw some old Philippine pro league game re-runs, early to mid 80s, and I was kinda shocked how crazy the handchecking was at the time.

A defender can literally push a ballhandler with one hand, not fully extended, but almost sumo wrestler type of pushing.
As long as the ball handler was not in the act of shooting or airborne, you could basically sumo wrestle the guy.

It was hilarious.

[spurraider21]

Hubie picking his greatest players of all time


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMHyBqwCOYw