Kawhi > Sean ?

[mudyez]

I have this thing running, where I put together all time rosters for every NBA franchise.

This is how it looks like for the Spurs at them moment (better said, about a year ago):

Top8:

C: D.Robinson
PF: T.Duncan
SF: G.Gervin
SG: E.Ginobili
PG: T.Parker
BenchBig: A.Gilmore
BenchMedium: S.Eliott
BenchSmall: A.Robertson

Specialists (don't have to be top players):

DefBig: D.Rodman (maybe Willis)
StretchBig: R.Horry
Stopper: B.Bowen
Shooter: S.Kerr
Playmaker: A.Johnson
Glueguy: P.Mills
Enforcer: S.Jackson

Coach: G.Popovich

Is it already time to put Kawhi in Sean's spot? And where does that leave Sean?

[apalisoc_9]

sean over Kawhi :lmao

[Beaverfuzz]

Quite obvious you didn't watch the Spurs before seven years ago.

[Vito Corleone]

Gervin is a 2 guard not a small forward. No way could Manu hold Gervin's jock. Gervin would be a 25 to 30 pt scorer in the league today. Give him teammates like Duncan and David Robinson he might score more with all the open looks he would get.

It's hard to take Leonard at this point over Elliott, but he is the real deal, he is beginning to remind me of a young Scottie Pippen. If he continues to improve, I could see him being the cornerstone of this franchise and yes, way better than Elliott

[superbigtime]

Ever hear of Terry Cummings?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

R:loldman.

[mudyez]

Quite obvious you didn't watch the Spurs before seven years ago.

Actually I'm following them 20 years now...not seen much of Gervin...had Cummings in at one point (but at which spot superbigtime???)...had Willis over Rodman at one point, but thinking of Rodman's defense on Malone made me flip it back).

Your insight is appreciated. Keep it coming!

[mudyez]

Maybe putting Cummings in for Gilmore, putting Gilmore in the DefBig Slot, switching Gervin to SG, Manu to Bench small/med, Leonard SF starter?

[cjw]

There are guys up in the rafters that didn't make your list? Silas? Moore? Don't forget Mike Mitchell too.

[mudyez]

There are guys up in the rafters that didn't make your list? Silas? Moore? Don't forget Mike Mitchell too.

All names I was thinking of (and when I recall corectly, hat at least Mitchel and Silas in at one point)...but yeah, when it comes to cutting a player, I may prefer hanging onto players I followed for years. (after all this are the players we won ships with)

Just let me know your list! (even lists from other teams are appreciated, but I think that should wait until we got one more win and the Draft ist over).

[Mr. Body]

I like this kind of game.

I'd put Gervin in as a small forward as well. Who cares if he's a 2 more than a 3? That would get Ginobili into the starting five.

I don't know why you're restricting yourself to eight players. Kawhi can be in there.

[cjw]

All names I was thinking of (and when I recall corectly, hat at least Mitchel and Silas in at one point)...but yeah, when it comes to cutting a player, I may prefer hanging onto players I followed for years. (after all this are the players we won ships with)

Just let me know your list! (even lists from other teams are appreciated, but I think that should wait until we got one more win and the Draft ist over).

I think it was just more surprise by me that we've been so lucky over the years to have such a talented crop of players without many high draft picks (and the only two #1's in the lottery era who've won with their original teams).

Let's get this thing over with so we can focus full time on the World Cup, while Miami fans smoke the pipe that will bring them Melo. You're in Germany, you pulling for Die Manschaft - looking very strong and should overcome the Reus injury with that much depth in the midfield.

[UZER]

Kawhis nickname should be ninja

[Jenks]

Gervin is a 2 guard not a small forward. No way could Manu hold Gervin's jock. Gervin would be a 25 to 30 pt scorer in the league today. Give him teammates like Duncan and David Robinson he might score more with all the open looks he would get.

This is where playing for Pop and winning championships hurts your legacy - stats.
Ginobili would have been a 25-30ppg scorer on another team that asked him to do more. Look at Harden on the Rockets, vs Harden on OKC. Instant jump from 15ish ppg to 25.

[superbigtime]

Actually I'm following them 20 years now...not seen much of Gervin...had Cummings in at one point (but at which spot superbigtime???)...had Willis over Rodman at one point, but thinking of Rodman's defense on Malone made me flip it back).

Your insight is appreciated. Keep it coming!

Kick out traitor Jax, insert Cummings as enforcer. If you love Jax so much, consider replacing Kerr with him. Also, I'd replace Avery w Johnny Moore.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Spurs top 5 right now:

1st team:
C Robinson
PF Duncan
SF Leonard
SG Gervin
PG Parker

2nd team:
C Gilmore
PF Cummings (He made two all stars with the Spurs and was a beast before his injury). Rodman could make a run at this spot as well but considering he hated the team I would leave him off.
SF Elliott or Bowen (depends if the Spurs wanted to go offensively or defensively)
SG Manu
PG Robertson (Robertson probably was the best defensive PG ever to play the game).

[mudyez]

I like this kind of game.

I'd put Gervin in as a small forward as well. Who cares if he's a 2 more than a 3? That would get Ginobili into the starting five.

I don't know why you're restricting yourself to eight players. Kawhi can be in there.

Just wanted to make up some rules that keep me thinking...8 players which could be kind of a basik star 8man rotation (the Bobcats one doesn't deserve this name)...and specialists to make room for guys like Kerr etc.

If I'd just go 15 best players or even more, it wouldn't be that much fun (the real fun is, when you have to cut Lakers/Celtics).

The glueguy and enforcer things are pretty hard especially for other teams (and I'm sure I'm not 100% on point regarding my Spurs choices).

[mudyez]

Spurs top 5 right now:

1st team:
C Robinson
PF Duncan
SF Leonard
SG Gervin
PG Parker

2nd team:
C Gilmore
PF Cummings (He made two all stars with the Spurs and was a beast before his injury). Rodman could make a run at this spot as well but considering he hated the team I would leave him off.
SF Elliott or Bowen (depends if the Spurs wanted to go offensively or defensively)
SG Manu
PG Robertson (Robertson probably was the best defensive PG ever to play the game).

Agree with 1st team (and already changed it) which was the point of the thread. But without 5 slots for 2nd team (only 3 + room for specialists), where would you put the other guys?

[Sixth Street]

PG Parker
SG Gervin
SF Leonard (more alpha than Elliott; more well-rounded than Bowen)
PF Duncan
C Robinson

6th Man Ginobili

[Cry Havoc]

Bowen over Luck the Fakers, for sure.

Kawhi over both of them though. His ceiling us almost limitless. He might already be the best defender in the NBA, is becoming a serious offensive threat, and is just 22. Incredible. Another draft steal of the year by the Spurs. People who have been saying he can't create for himself have been REKT these past two games.

Kawhi could realistically go down as a top 5 Spurs player of all time. That's pretty ridiculous to even have a shot at it, considering the other top 5 are lock down first ballot hall of famers (Duncan, Drob, gervin, Parker, Manu)

[Beaverfuzz]

There are guys up in the rafters that didn't make your list? Silas? Moore? Don't forget Mike Mitchell too.

Exactly. And while I love Patty Mills, he doesn't deserve ANY spot on an all-time Spurs roster period.

[T Park]

Sean Elliott in his prime was as good as Bowen defensively, but could also drop 20 points a night on you.

You people have zero memories before 2005.

[mudyez]

Exactly. And while I love Patty Mills, he doesn't deserve ANY spot on an all-time Spurs roster period.

Yeah, but thats the point: It's not the 15 best players but the 8 best players (and maybe even not this, if 6 of them have been centers for examble) and the best guys at certain things.

So the question shouldn't be: "Was there a better player than Patty", but "was there a player thats not in the top8 youd rather have as your glueguy"?

[Beaverfuzz]

Yeah, but thats the point: It's not the 15 best players but the 8 best players (and maybe even not this, if 6 of them have been centers for examble) and the best guys at certain things.

So the question shouldn't be: "Was there a better player than Patty", but "was there a player thats not in the top8 youd rather have as your glueguy"?


Dominique. He held that team together before Tim came on board. Give him a spot.

[Aztecfan03]

I have this thing running, where I put together all time rosters for every NBA franchise.

This is how it looks like for the Spurs at them moment (better said, about a year ago):

Top8:

C: D.Robinson
PF: T.Duncan
SF: G.Gervin
SG: E.Ginobili
PG: T.Parker
BenchBig: A.Gilmore
BenchMedium: S.Eliott
BenchSmall: A.Robertson

Specialists (don't have to be top players):

DefBig: D.Rodman (maybe Willis)
StretchBig: R.Horry
Stopper: B.Bowen
Shooter: S.Kerr
Playmaker: A.Johnson
Glueguy: P.Mills
Enforcer: S.Jackson

Coach: G.Popovich

Is it already time to put Kawhi in Sean's spot? And where does that leave Sean?

You already have Mills there but you don't have Kawhi?!

[thiste]

I think we can all agree Kawhi has a higher ceiling potential than either Sean or Bruce. And I think they would admit it themselves if asked about it. And I truly love these two guys. Now, they both have been crucial to this team and its legacy. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Kawhi is only 22, has been with us for all of 2 years, and has yet to help us win a title...

... can't wait to see him do just that and get his first finals MVP on sunday night though :)

[mudyez]

You already have Mills there but you don't have Kawhi?!

again! its not just the 15 best players!

[baseline bum]

Actually I'm following them 20 years now...not seen much of Gervin...had Cummings in at one point (but at which spot superbigtime???)...had Willis over Rodman at one point, but thinking of Rodman's defense on Malone made me flip it back).

Your insight is appreciated. Keep it coming!

Gervin was Durant.

[baseline bum]

There are guys up in the rafters that didn't make your list? Silas? Moore? Don't forget Mike Mitchell too.

I have always heard Silas was a way better Sam Cassell, but he's before my time. Moore doesn't belong on this list. I wouldn't take Mitchell over Elliott either. Actually, I surely wouldn't put Mitchell because it would mean bumping one of Bowen and Elliott.

[Mugen]

Who do you guys think would be a better color commentator tho?

[phxspurfan]

Sean Elliott in his prime was as good as Bowen defensively, but could also drop 20 points a night on you

Until you punched him in the kidney

[baseline bum]

If I had to pick a 12 man team it would be:

C Robinson
PF Duncan
SF Bowen
SG Gervin
PG Parker

6 Ginobili
7 Silas
8 Leonard
9 Elliott
10 Gilmore
11 Cummings
12 Kenon

[baseline bum]

Sean Elliott in his prime was as good as Bowen defensively, but could also drop 20 points a night on you.

You people have zero memories before 2005.

Sean was never close to Bruce defensively. Sean was an excellent defender, but Bruce was the best perimeter defender the league has seen since Pippen.

[baseline bum]

Who do you guys think would be a better color commentator tho?

Play by Play: Jay Howard
Color: Hubie Brown

[SupremeGuy]

Gervin > Manu, tbh.

[cjw]

I have always heard Silas was a way better Sam Cassell, but he's before my time. Moore doesn't belong on this list. I wouldn't take Mitchell over Elliott either. Actually, I surely wouldn't put Mitchell because it would mean bumping one of Bowen and Elliott.

Not to split hairs, but wasn't Moore much better than Avery? I'm not old enough to remember and we all know stats can be deceiving...

[rascal]

Ever hear of Terry Cummings?

Cumming was finished when he got to the Spurs. Kenon was much better.

[slick'81]

Kawahi ceiling is higher IMO

[Phenomanul]

Gervin > Manu, tbh.

Which is probably correct on reputation alone... without much debate from most...

That said,

Prime Ginobili was the more complete player who brought toughness, grit, competitive fire and other intagibles to the fray EVERY night. In other words, if I wanted to win a basketball game I would choose Manu over Gervin (despite Gervin being the better scorer) because Manu was also a pesky defender and competitively played that side of the ball as well - Gervin didn't (which is why he had more energy to expend on the offensive end). This is why Ginobili has won at every level, in every league he's played in... it's not a coincidence... In fact, I would venture to say that prime Ginobili would be able to bother prime Gervin more so than the reverse argument... Context is everything.

Don't get me wrong George Gervin was an ELITE scorer, which made him the great player he was... Manu's ELITE talent is knowing how to win (though his impact has waned with the years)... Picking Gervin over Manu seems like the simple thing to do... It would be like suggesting that Steve Nash was a better point guard than Gary Payton or Jason Kidd because he is a two time NBA MVP... but Nash's teams never played anything resembling defense... Gary Payton and Jason Kidd, on the other hand, were elite defenders at their position (who would rebound and steal the ball with the best of them)... so that to me would make the latter more complete players...

Just my two cents...

[SupremeGuy]

Different eras, different teams, blah blah blah...

If you put Gervin on this Spurs' team he'd be a great defender, tbh.

[Jenks]

Different eras, different teams, blah blah blah...

If you put Gervin on this Spurs' team he'd be a great defender, tbh.And he'd score 10 to 15 less ppg on this Spurs team.

[Phenomanul]

Different eras, different teams, blah blah blah...

If you put Gervin on this Spurs' team he'd be a great defender, tbh.

How has that worked out for Marco Bellinelli or Gary Neal? Playing defense takes more than effort alone...

[CosmicCowboy]

Leonard definitely has the potential to be better than Elliott. People forget, though, that Elliott did probably the best job in the NBA of containing Jordan in his prime when the Bulls came to town but he had to give it up 100% on the defensive end. Being a stopper on LeBron and still ripping him a new asshole on offense definitely gives KL cred.

[SupremeGuy]

How has that worked out for Marco Bellinelli or Gary Neal? Playing defense takes more than effort alone...Gervin's athleticism is offended that you compared it to Gary Neal's and Beli's. lol

[SupremeGuy]

Leonard definitely has the potential to be better than Elliott. People forget, though, that Elliott did probably the best job in the NBA of containing Jordan in his prime when the Bulls came to town but he had to give it up 100% on the defensive end. Being a stopper on LeBron and still ripping him a new asshole on offense definitely gives KL cred.:lol

[Phenomanul]

Gervin's athleticism is offended that you compared it to Gary Neal's and Beli's. lol

And yet, Gervin RARELY played any defense whatsoever... so if you're implying he chose not to give an effort on that side of the ball (because he had the atleticism to do it), how would that place him above Manu?

[hitmantb]

Kwahi outplayed LeBron on his own home floor two games in a row in the NBA finals.

As good as Memorial Day miracle was, I don't think Sean ever had an equivalent performance.

Playing in one western conference final and two NBA finals first three years of your career also helps. Kwahi will be a much better player than Sean when he is done.

Kwahi is to me, the most physically gifted Spurs player since David Robinson. He made me feel like LeBron played on the Spurs last two games.

[SupremeGuy]

And yet, Gervin RARELY played any defense whatsoever... so if you're implying he chose not to give an effort on that side of the ball (because he had the atleticism to do it), how would that place him above Manu?Like I said, "different eras, different teams, blah blah blah." lol

[Mikeanaro]

Gervin is a 2 guard not a small forward. No way could Manu hold Gervin's jock. Gervin would be a 25 to 30 pt scorer in the league today. Give him teammates like Duncan and David Robinson he might score more with all the open looks he would get.

It's hard to take Leonard at this point over Elliott, but he is the real deal, he is beginning to remind me of a young Scottie Pippen. If he continues to improve, I could see him being the cornerstone of this franchise and yes, way better than Elliott
Lol!
Because making points is the only way to success... Gervin can´t hold Manu´s undies.
Manu could score everything he wants but he is a team player not a ballhog monkeyballer quit the dope man

[T Park]

Sean was never close to Bruce defensively. Sean was an excellent defender, but Bruce was the best perimeter defender the league has seen since Pippen.

Sean shut down many a wing.

Watched in person my own self when hed guard Jordan.

[T Park]

Leonard definitely has the potential to be better than Elliott. People forget, though, that Elliott did probably the best job in the NBA of containing Jordan in his prime when the Bulls came to town but he had to give it up 100% on the defensive end. Being a stopper on LeBron and still ripping him a new asshole on offense definitely gives KL cred.

Yeah, had his knees always been healthy and not been crap his entire career that couldve been different IMO.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah, had his knees always been healthy and not been crap his entire career that couldve been different IMO.

Having had shit knees myself and going through replacements now I can definitely relate.

[superbigtime]

Cumming was finished when he got to the Spurs. Kenon was much better.

Kenon was before my time, but no way was TC done. He kicked ass for SA. Always liked the dude.

[Knoxxx]

TC had like a 50-point game with the Spurs. He was like Duncan in several ways, a bit shorter but a very smart fundamental player that knew how to score and rarely jumped more than 6 inches off the ground.

[Knoxxx]

[QUOTE=baseline bum;7420818]If I had to pick a 12 man team it would be:

Your fatal error is Bowen over Leonard, that's absurd. Even Bowen over Sean is absurd. Bowen in the top 12 is probably also absurd.

I was tempted to put Manu over Ice Man, but seemed fitting to leave Ice there and have Manu in his familiar 6th man role. Nice call there.

[mudyez]

so what would be your changes?...

Top8:

C: D.Robinson
PF: T.Duncan
SF: K.Leonard
SG: G.Gervin
PG: T.Parker
BenchBig: A.Gilmore
BenchMedium: S.Elliott
BenchSmall: E.Ginobili

Specialists (don't have to be top players):

DefBig: D.Rodman
StretchBig: R.Horry
Stopper: B.Bowen
Shooter: S.Kerr
Playmaker: A.Johnson
Glueguy: P.Mills
Enforcer: S.Jackson

Coach: G.Popovich

[baseline bum]

so what would be your changes?...

Top8:

C: D.Robinson
PF: T.Duncan
SF: K.Leonard
SG: G.Gervin
PG: T.Parker
BenchBig: A.Gilmore
BenchMedium: S.Elliott
BenchSmall: E.Ginobili

Specialists (don't have to be top players):

DefBig: D.Rodman
StretchBig: R.Horry
Stopper: B.Bowen
Shooter: S.Kerr
Playmaker: A.Johnson
Glueguy: P.Mills
Enforcer: S.Jackson

Coach: G.Popovich

Rodman never played any defense in San Antonio, and getting him was a huge mistake since he went nuts when the Pistons fell apart.

[baseline bum]

Your fatal error is Bowen over Leonard, that's absurd. Even Bowen over Sean is absurd. Bowen in the top 12 is probably also absurd.


Bowen is far and away a better defensive player than either Leonard or Elliott, and that lineup has tons of scoring.

[DarrinS]

Rodman never played any defense in San Antonio, and getting him was a huge mistake since he went nuts when the Pistons fell apart.

I hated when Rodman was here (along with his boyfriend, Haley)

[Harry Callahan]

Mike Mitchell (RIP) and Larry Kenon were excellent players. I'm not sure they could defend well enough for the current coach.

Leonard is going to bring some nasty to Miami tomorrow. He'll be a good one for awhile.

[scanry]

Kawhi is a flat out stud and a winner. Sean is a role player. nough said.

[Harry Callahan]

If you put prime Bowen out there on this current Spurs team it would be a little unfair to the opponents.

[baseline bum]

Sean shut down many a wing.

Watched in person my own self when hed guard Jordan.

Do you attribute the Spurs consistently beating the Bulls from 89-93 to Elliott? I give it more to Robinson's rim protection, as Jordan played a game a lot like prime Wade based on penetration in those days. Once he developed a killer jumpshot in 95 he never lost another game to the Spurs.

[baseline bum]

Kawhi is a flat out stud and a winner. Sean is a role player. nough said.

How long have you been watching the Spurs? Elliott was a hell of a defensive player, and had a monster first step. Dude was unguardable on the baseline and hit what is at worst the second biggest shot in franchise history after carrying the Spurs through that entire game against Portland.

[mudyez]

I hated when Rodman was here (along with his boyfriend, Haley)

Hate it, but still have to say, Rodman is a major reason I'm a Spurs fan.

Not that i liked him (I really did not!). But with his colored hair and habits, german TV chose to air a lot of Spurs games. They were showing about 3 games a week (one of them live) and nearly every week (or at least it feels that way) the Spurs were on. Loved the Admiral, really liked Sean...hell even liked to see a white italian player at 2guard.

[Jimcs50]

Gervin is a 2 guard not a small forward. No way could Manu hold Gervin's jock. Gervin would be a 25 to 30 pt scorer in the league today. Give him teammates like Duncan and David Robinson he might score more with all the open looks he would get.

It's hard to take Leonard at this point over Elliott, but he is the real deal, he is beginning to remind me of a young Scottie Pippen. If he continues to improve, I could see him being the cornerstone of this franchise and yes, way better than Elliott

With the no hand checking rules today, Ice would have averaged 35/ game easily

[superbigtime]

How long have you been watching the Spurs? Elliott was a hell of a defensive player, and had a monster first step. Dude was unguardable on the baseline and hit what is at worst the second biggest shot in franchise history after carrying the Spurs through that entire game against Portland.

[scanry]

How long have you been watching the Spurs? Elliott was a hell of a defensive player, and had a monster first step. Dude was unguardable on the baseline and hit what is at worst the second biggest shot in franchise history after carrying the Spurs through that entire game against Portland.

I'm not trying to dismiss Sean but i've watched him enough to compare the two. His footwork wasn't great and couldn't move his feet fast enough to stay in front of players.

[DarrinS]

I'm not trying to dismiss Sean but i've watched him enough to compare the two. His footwork wasn't great and couldn't move his feet fast enough to stay in front of players.

What?

[xmas1997]

Sean Elliott in his prime was as good as Bowen defensively, but could also drop 20 points a night on you.

You people have zero memories before 2005.


This is indisputably true. Some forget the Memorial Day Miracle.
Sugar K has a long long way to go to ever displace the Ninja.
Surprised this was even brought up for discussion tbqh.

[T Park]

Do you attribute the Spurs consistently beating the Bulls from 89-93 to Elliott? I give it more to Robinson's rim protection, as Jordan played a game a lot like prime Wade based on penetration in those days. Once he developed a killer jumpshot in 95 he never lost another game to the Spurs.

Robinson was a big reason, but Sean could flat out guard man.

If his knees were good, he would've been at least a 5 or 6 time all star.

[therealtruth]

If you put prime Bowen out there on this current Spurs team it would be a little unfair to the opponents.

Bowen would be two one dimensional for us now. We need wings who can score and create transition opportunities.

[xmas1997]

I can't believe anyone who has watched the Spurs over the years would even consider this.
It is ridiculous tbqh.
Who is making some of these preposterous threads today?
Oh, I forgot, there is a full moon outside bringing all the crazies out today.
:lmao

[baseline bum]

Bowen would be two one dimensional for us now. We need wings who can score and create transition opportunities.

Bowen forcing his man to shoot lots of contested 20 footers would create plenty of transition opportunities.

[CGD]

Love Sean, but he was pretty soft until 1999