Small town may face big bill from Wiccan

[spurschick]

I agree with the idea, but I think it sucks that this small town is going to go broke with the legal bills.



http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/15/wiccan.ap/

Woman wins lawsuit over prayers in council meetings; wants fees paid

GREAT FALLS, South Carolina (AP) -- A small South Carolina town is facing a hefty legal bill after losing a battle over whether it should stop using Jesus Christ's name in prayers before council meetings.

The U.S. Supreme Court refused in June to hear the Great Falls' appeal of a lower court ruling over the prayers.

Now Darla Wynne wants Great Falls to pay her more than $65,000 to cover legal bills. A judge is expected to rule on the matter within the next two months.

Wynne, who describes herself as a Wiccan priestess, sued Great Falls in 2001, saying the town violated the separation between church and state by using the name Jesus Christ in prayers because it promoted one religion, Christianity, over the another.

The money is not covered by insurance, and it is unclear where the town of about 2,200 residents would get the cash. The amount is about 7 percent of its annual budget.

"It'll be an enormous undertaking for us," town attorney Michael Hemlepp said.

Wynne's lawyer said attorneys had incurred only about $18,000 in expenses before the town decided to appeal. "We spent two years in extra litigation while they went to the U.S. Supreme Court, and I think the case was clear from the beginning," said attorney Herbert Buhl.

The Rev. Michael Sollers, pastor of Evangel Temple Assembly of God, said most of the town supported the council's decision to keep fighting the case and would be willing to help pay the legal fees.

[Nbadan]

Sounds to me like the town threw their religious dice and they came up craps!

:hat

[SWC Bonfire]

If socialists within the ACLU would stick to their strict utilitarianism, then they would recognize that this was not worth it for one person who got pissed off.

[Nbadan]

If socialists within the ACLU would stick to their strict utilitarianism, then they would recognize that this was not worth it for one person who got pissed off.

Your right, where are the protestants on this?

[SWC Bonfire]

You're right, where are the protestants on this?

???

This woman will probably have to leave town anyway, because no one will want to deal with her after the time she spent shitting on her neighbors and raising their taxes.

[mookie2001]

yeah if you have a case or lawsuit against the city, just forget it, youll raise everyones taxes

[SWC Bonfire]

yeah if you have a case or lawsuit against the city, just forget it, youll raise everyones taxes

Great Falls, SC - Population 2194.

$65,000 / 2194 people = almost $30 per man, woman & child.

All because she couldn't stand someone saying Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ, this woman is a selfish, self-centered child. We're not talking about any denial of civil rights here, she was offended by WORDS (not even meant to offend) and wants $65,000 from her neighbors for it. Grow the fuck up & maybe help some people in the community.

[mookie2001]

shes not the city bookkeeper
65 large isnt that much as far as suits go
what if a jewish dude or some hindu guy wants to speak at a meeting, I can imagine theyd feel nervous or not welcomed
thats why they have laws
freedom of religion is freedom from religion too

[Nbadan]

Your right, let's add the words Mohammed and Satan while were at it and everyone can just ignore those parts too.

[SWC Bonfire]

Well, the "Is this really worth it?" test was bypassed in this case. Trivial fodder like this is like "the boy who cries wolf" for something that is important, like racial bigotry.

[Spurminator]

I'm gonna have to side against the city here, grudgingly. They didn't have to fight it in court, and they certainly didn't have to appeal. They were in the wrong from the beginning, no matter how petty their offense was.

Now, maybe someone will volunteer to camp out and watch for her to make one wrong move during one of her animal sacrifices or whatever.

[cecil collins]

Well, the "Is this really worth it?" test was bypassed in this case. Trivial fodder like this is like "the boy who cries wolf" for something that is important, like racial bigotry.

I think the town should have taken the "is this really worth it" test as well. You can't have a double standard just because she is fighting against the norm. You also stated that, "she was offended by WORDS." Is that out of the ordinary? Also, as far as I know, wiccans don't sacrifice animals.

[N.Y. Johnny]

wiccans have a close bond with nature and i assume a great respect for living things


it's actually kind of eerie--go find a wiccan and take your pet dog by him/her

dogs love wiccans as much as they hate black people



:lmao

You might be right...i remember my old dog used to like hanging around some wiccan woman i knew

[Dos]

Just another freedom of speech loving leftist..... it can only be freedom of speech if it agree's with the lefts point of view...

[exstatic]

Just another bunch of Xtians with their panties in a wad. They KNOW what the fucking constitution says, yet feel compelled to act like a two year old having a tantrum.

[whottt]

This bitch..er...witch... needs a good burning at the stake...

[Trainwreck2100]

She's the one who undertook this "challenge" so she should be responsible for every cent.`

[boutons]

"she should be responsible for every cent."`

Had she LOST the litigation, she would have.
Since when do legal winners lose the litigation costs?

[Hook Dem]

Madeline O'hare reincarnated!

[exstatic]

She's the one who undertook this "challenge" so she should be responsible for every cent.`

Uh, actually, she won on the lower levels, and the town, which had the option, kept appealing. Can you read?

[Trainwreck2100]

So did wade pay rowe's attorney's fees when she won?

[Trainwreck2100]

Usually attorney's fees are only awarded in cases where one party has been seen as acting in "bad faith" these are the ones that we are commonly aware of. Another case is when the legal action created a fund of money for others. The town should not be punished by doing what they had the RIGHT to do, the town had every right to appeal.

*edit* cases with a federal agency or the US may also be awarded court fees.

[Dos]

yes the constitutions gives us freedom of religion... which means you can practice it in public without persecution.... like getting sued for praying in the name of Jesus....

[exstatic]

which means you can practice it in public without persecution....

Never heard of that guarantee. Also never heard of anyone being legally hassled in their homes or churches, which is where religion belongs. Don't pray, don't tell....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

yes the constitutions gives us freedom of religion... which means you can practice it in public without persecution.... like getting sued for praying in the name of Jesus....

should stop using Jesus Christ's name in prayers before council meetings
it wasn't in public, it was during council meetings

[Trainwreck2100]

They don't owe her money.

[Dos]

council meetings are in public aren't they... or was this some secret back room city council... doesn't our congress have a chaplin also that prays in the name of Jesus?

[Dos]

current chaplin of the US Senate

Barry C. Black
Chaplain

On June 27, 2003, Rear Admiral Barry C. Black (Ret.) was elected the 62nd Chaplain of the United States Senate. He began working in the Senate on July 7, 2003. Prior to coming to Capitol Hill, Chaplain Black served in the U.S. Navy for over twenty-seven years, ending his distinguished career as the Chief of Navy Chaplains. The Senate elected its first chaplain in 1789.

Commissioned as a Navy Chaplain in 1976, Chaplain Black’s first duty station was the Fleet Religious Support Activity in Norfolk, Virginia. Subsequent assignments include Naval Support Activity, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland; First Marine Aircraft Wing, Okinawa, Japan; Naval Training Center, San Diego, California; USS BELLEAU WOOD (LHA 3) Long Beach, California; Naval Chaplains School Advanced Course, Newport, Rhode Island; Marine Aircraft Group THIRTY-ONE, Beaufort, South Carolina; Assistant Staff Chaplain, Chief of Naval Education and Training, Pensacola, Florida; and Fleet Chaplain, U.S. Atlantic Fleet, Norfolk, Virginia.

As Rear Admiral, his personal decorations included the Navy Distinguished Service Medal, the Legion of Merit Medal, Defense Meritorious Service Medal (two medals), Meritorious Service Medals (two awards), Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals (two awards), and numerous unit awards, campaign, and service medals.

PERSONAL INFORMATION

Chaplain Black is a native of Baltimore, Maryland and an alumnus of Oakwood College, Andrews University, North Carolina Central University, Eastern Baptist Seminary, Salve Regina University, and United States International University. In addition to earning Master of Arts degrees in Divinity, Counseling, and Management, he has received a Doctorate degree in Ministry and a Doctor of Philosophy degree in Psychology.

Chaplain Black has been selected for many outstanding achievements. Of particular note, he was chosen from 127 nominees for the 1995 NAACP Renowned Service Award for his contribution to equal opportunity and civil rights. He also received the 2002 Benjamin Elijah Mays Distinguished Leadership Award from The Morehouse School of Religion. In 2004, the Old Dominion University chapter of the NAACP conferred on him the Image Award, "Reaffirming the Dream -- Realizing the Vision" for military excellence.

[Dos]

Current US House of Representive Chaplin

The Reverend Daniel P. Coughlin

To serve as Chaplain for the U.S. House of Representatives is truly an honor and a privilege. At one and the same time to be a minister of the Lord and an officer serving the United States government responds to a two-fold call to serve others and offer prayer which unites heaven and earth.

With 435 members in the House and their staffs, plus all the other wonderful people who serve here with committee work or in the Chamber, including teenage pages, creates the pastoral duties that are many and varied. The effort is to meet the needs of this working community on a personal level. The concerns that weigh on their hearts and the problems that block their clarity of thinking at times become the concerns of the Chaplain.

The formal prayer before each legislative session of Congress or even on the days of pro forma sessions casts a light on the day which awakens faith and calls forth a nation to stand with its leaders and say in unison: “In God we Trust.” But daily prayer for the members of the House cannot end there.

I ask people across this great county to join me in praying for the Members of the House of Representatives. Know the member of your Congressional district by name and raise his/her name before God each day with us here in the nation’s capital.

Pray for the Chaplain also that I may be always rooted in prayer and a good instrument for accomplishing God’s holy will here. Only by being free in the Spirit could the Chaplain serve all the people here regardless of their faith persuasion or denomination. Only by listening to each person in depth could good counsel be offered, encouragement be readily given or correction be artfully applied.

Thank you for your interest in the Members of the House and your support of them.



In March 2000 Reverend Daniel P. Coughlin became the first Roman Catholic priest to be named Chaplain for the United States House of Representatives since the position was created in 1774. Prior to his appointment, Coughlin served as Director of the Office for Divine Worship for the Archdiocese of Chicago for 15 years. He has served on many national and international committees regarding issues related to spirituality and renewal in prayer. He was one of the contributors to the National Conference of Catholic Bishops' publication, "The Spiritual Renewal of the American Priesthood."

[Dos]

guess they've been praying in the house and senate for a long time in the name of Jesus.. you can even go get your daily prayer at the US House of Representive Chaplins website.... oh how dare they pray.....

http://chaplain.house.gov/

[boutons]

Tom DeLay, Dennis Hastert, Bill Frist as "instruments of God's will" ? GMAFB

$1,000,000,000,000,000 for the Iraq war / 300,000,000 US citizens = $3,333 per citizen.

[cecil collins]

She's the one who undertook this "challenge" so she should be responsible for every cent.`

Which would be to your benefit, because nothing would ever change.

[SWC Bonfire]

Tom DeLay, Dennis Hastert, Bill Frist as "instruments of God's will" ? GMAFB

$1,000,000,000,000,000 for the Iraq war / 300,000,000 US citizens = $3,333 per citizen.

The Iraq war will cost 1,000 trillion dollars?

[boutons]

"The Iraq war will cost 1,000 trillion dollars?"

$B500 immediately during military action so far plus the next 5 or 10 yeras, and then $B500 in disability benefits and pensions over the next 50 years to Iraqi war veterans and families, to say nothing of the "opportunty costs" of not spending that $1T on productive goods and services here in the states. And there are decades of interests costs to be paid since the Repugs are paying for this war with foreign money, not US tax $$$.

[SWC Bonfire]

"The Iraq war will cost 1,000 trillion dollars?"

$B500 immediately during military action so far plus the next 5 or 10 yeras, and then $B500 in disability benefits and pensions over the next 50 years to Iraqi war veterans and families, to say nothing of the "opportunty costs" of not spending that $1T on productive goods and services here in the states. And there are decades of interests costs to be paid since the Repugs are paying for this war with foreign money, not US tax $$$.

And every cent going to the millitary in the next 10 years will be due to Iraq? You forgot to add "and Afganistan, and everything else in the forseeable future if every congressman in every district gets their own millitary projects."

I happen to know for a fact that that isn't true, because the US Navy isn't sending our stuff to Iraq.

[Mr. Ash]

"The Iraq war will cost 1,000 trillion dollars?"

$B500 immediately during military action so far plus the next 5 or 10 yeras, and then $B500 in disability benefits and pensions over the next 50 years to Iraqi war veterans and families, to say nothing of the "opportunty costs" of not spending that $1T on productive goods and services here in the states. And there are decades of interests costs to be paid since the Repugs are paying for this war with foreign money, not US tax $$$.

The correct answer was "oops, that was a typo". You're claiming one quadrillion dollars as the long term cost of the war. The cost per citizen is about 3 million in that case.

Am I the only one that can't say "one quadrillion dollars" without thinking of Austin Powers?

[Trainwreck2100]

Which would be to your benefit, because nothing would ever change.


It was ruled in 75 that every person is responsible for their own lawyer. Sorry I forget the case, I have already said when attorney's fees can be awarded. Maybe if she did the smart thing and went to the ACLU she could have gotten it done for free. She didn't so she should pay her lawyers.

[Useruser666]

The correct answer was "oops, that was a typo". You're claiming one quadrillion dollars as the long term cost of the war. The cost per citizen is about 3 million in that case.

Am I the only one that can't say "one quadrillion dollars" without thinking of Austin Powers?

:lol

The GDP for the US is only $ 11,750,000,000,000 with a growth rate of 4.4%.

So if you do the math, that means the war in Iraq will cost more than the US GDP for just about the next 60 years!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL Suuuuuuurrrrreeeeee!

[boutons]

The New York Times
August 20, 2005

The Trillion-Dollar War
By LINDA BILMES

Cambridge, Mass.

THE human cost of the more than 2,000 American military personnel killed and 14,500 wounded so far in Iraq and Afghanistan is all too apparent. But the financial toll is still largely hidden from public view and, like the suffering of those who have lost loved ones, will persist long after the fighting is over.

The cost goes well beyond the more than $250 billion already spent on military operations and reconstruction. Basic running costs of the current conflicts are $6 billion a month - a figure that reflects the Pentagon's unprecedented reliance on expensive private contractors. Other factors keeping costs high include inducements for recruits and for military personnel serving second and third deployments, extra pay for reservists and members of the National Guard, as well as more than $2 billion a year in additional foreign aid to Jordan, Pakistan, Turkey and others to reward their cooperation in Iraq and Afghanistan. The bill for repairing and replacing military hardware is $20 billion a year, according to figures from the Congressional Budget Office.

But the biggest long-term costs are disability and health payments for returning troops, which will be incurred even if hostilities were to stop tomorrow. The United States currently pays more than $2 billion in disability claims per year for 159,000 veterans of the 1991 gulf war, even though that conflict lasted only five weeks, with 148 dead and 467 wounded. Even assuming that the 525,000 American troops who have so far served in Iraq and Afghanistan will require treatment only on the same scale as their predecessors from the gulf war, these payments are likely to run at $7 billion a year for the next 45 years.

All of this spending will need to be financed by adding to the federal debt. Extra interest payments will total $200 billion or more even if the borrowing is repaid quickly. Conflict in the Middle East has also played a part in doubling the price of oil from $30 a barrel just prior to the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 to $60 a barrel today. Each $5 increase in the price of oil reduces our national income by about $17 billion a year.

Even by this simple yardstick, if the American military presence in the region lasts another five years, the total outlay for the war could stretch to more than $1.3 trillion, or $11,300 for every household in the United States.

Linda Bilmes, an assistant secretary at the Department of Commerce from 1999 to 2001, teaches budgeting and public finance at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard.

* Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company