Psychology of the Game/ Why havent we attracted top free Agents?

[YODA]

Going to reference the Spurs collapse here versus OKC a few years back. After winning 20+ games and winning 1st 2 on CF, the Spurs lose 4 Straight. Why? In my opinion, their over confidence lured them into thinking they couldn't be beat. All they heard was about the huge streak. Losing 1 game probably didn't effect them as bad as the second game. From there, all confidence was lost the end was at hand.

I kind of see a similarity with the Heat. Undefeated at home during playoffs. Not losing 2 straight in X amount of games. 2 Time defending champions. They know SA pissed about last year and can see it in how they have won in MIAMI. Mentally the Heat wont have it and the only question is who the MVP will be. I kinda think Timmy will be huge tonight and get the vote even though it should go to Boris or Leonard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is it that San Antonio is rarely in the mix when it comes to BIG NAME free agents?
Think of the biggest names we have gotton. FInley? Jefferson? Now there is a host of other names, but mostly veteran players or marginal players. Every Year , whether is was someone like KOBE, MELO, Shack, ( just names off the top) ITs never even been a talk about SA.

Check out this this of names who have some through SA.
Richard Jefferson, Neal, Rasho, Ferry, Willis, Kersey, Porter, Rivers, Perdue, Chuck Person, Elie. A ton more interesting names I could come up with, but the point being were seldom in the hunt for the price. The closest being Jason KIdd back in the day. Is it because they keep saying Spurs are older then dirt and they think Spurs are at end of legacy? Been this way a long time. Just erks me that were NEVER in the conversation when there is a Huge name out there.
Thoughts?

Yoda

[poop]

20something dudes making tons of money dont want to live in san antonio, texas.

[Jimcs50]

Because when all is said and done most players only worry about making the most money they can. That's why Carmelo will not go to Miami

[biskvito]

I think one of the reasons is related to discipline and adherence to the Spurs system. International or unknown players are more prone to obey Pop without ego or locker room issues. Stephen Jackson is a typical example of what can go wrong when you don't meet those standards.

[UZER]

Free agents use the excuse of the day not to come to San Antonio. First, their agent throws out SAs name as a first choice destination. Then......

-When SA has money, "it's not about the money."

-When SA doesn't have money, "I have to think about what's best for me and my family. I might not get another contract like this."

- When SA wins rings, "I want to be a part of helping someone get over the hump."

-When SA doesn't ring, they join the champ, "i feel like I can help them keep winning."

Etc etc

[703 Spurz]

The Spurs haven't had a high draft pick in 15 years and their salary cap has never given them a chance to spend a ton of money on big-time FAs because they already have 3 all-star and HOF players that have played with them their entire careers.

Miami's only exception is Wade. OKC drafted Durant, Westfuck, and Ibaka so they're in the same situation as SA is. Houston was able to get Harden and Howard b/c they didn't have anyone before them.

[mercos]

The Spurs have not really had the opportunity to land a big free agent in the past 10 years. They were close to snagging Jason Kidd back in 2003, and Kidd actually wanted to sign, but couldn't convince his wife to leave the New York area. After that, the big 3 exploded, thus requiring much of the Spurs cap space. No need to land big free agents when you can develop stars yourself.

[wildbill2u]

Lots of reasons> Small market means less celebrity. San Antonio has small black community/culture. Many free agents egos simply won't fit into the team vs. me system. we'd have to trade off one of our Big 3 because of salary cap situation. FO, POP and Holt are probably pretty satisfied with the way they are operating without big name free agents since they are in finals two years in a row. Not interested in head cases that couldn't lead their own team.

[Ibleedslvrnblk]

I remember Admiral for Weber deal almost going through. Man was I an idiot for wanting that. He was on the decline and Weber was still younger. Would have changed the face of the organization. So careful what you wish for. I mean look how is Oden and Granger doing right now???

[UZER]

Lots of reasons> Small market means less celebrity. San Antonio has small black community/culture. Many free agents egos simply won't fit into the team vs. me system. we'd have to trade off one of our Big 3 because of salary cap situation. FO, POP and Holt are probably pretty satisfied with the way they are operating without big name free agents since they are in finals two years in a row. Not interested in head cases that couldn't lead their own team.

I agree with this. The thing that's annoying is the agent always drops the spurs name with no intentions of the players ever coming here.

[YODA]

I guess its the small market, but winning is winning. I would have thought someone like Kobe or James would have at least visited the idea.
Yoda

[BackHome]

Simple truth is that they listen to Charles Barkley...

[Mel_13]

You can't attract top free agents without sufficient cap space. The Spurs haven't had that sort of cap space since 2003.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Don't believe in this big FA won't come cause it's a small market. Truth is, the Spurs have only had the money to offer a bigtime FA once during the Duncan era. That one time they almost got their man and if it wasn't for his wife they would have lost Tony Parker for the priviledge to pay 20 mil to a 40 year old. #hindsight

[Mugen]

The Lakers last "Big Name" FA acquisition was Ron Artest. Before that were the corpses of GP/Mailman. Shaq was their biggest haul and that was almost 20 years ago....

Basically, what I'm saying is that being a FA draw doesn't guarantee contention unless you can pull off a once in a lifetime coup like Riley did in 2010. Having a Front Office that can identify talent through the draft and have the coaching staff develop that talent is much more important IMO and the Spurs are the best in the business in that regard tbh....

[xmas1997]

What about AK47?

[Prose]

20something dudes making tons of money dont want to live in san antonio, texas.

[Baam]

The Lakers last "Big Name" FA acquisition was Ron Artest. Before that were the corpses of GP/Mailman. Shaq was their biggest haul and that was almost 20 years ago....

Basically, what I'm saying is that being a FA draw doesn't guarantee contention unless you can pull off a once in a lifetime coup like Riley did in 2010. Having a Front Office that can identify talent through the draft and have the coaching staff develop that talent is much more important IMO and the Spurs are the best in the business in that regard tbh....

Presti is the best when it comes to the draft...

[Mugen]

:lol Presti had three Top 5 picks in 3 years. The Spurs haven't drafted in the lottery in 17 years tbh.

[DPG21920]

Like most things, it's many factors. Spurs have had the same money as other teams when it comes to ability to spend, but willingness to spend has not always been there.

Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA. They don't like the city, it's a small market with limited opportunity for additional endorsements/money making & they would be playing 4th fiddle at best. Then you factor in the defense/playing for Pop and that's not everyone's cup of team. This is just a job for many and while they like to win, it's not at the top of the list. Having fun, making money and getting the spotlight is important for most and SA is not the place for that overall.

[xmas1997]

It is true that the family oriented type of player is more apt to come here, unless worried about TP stealing their wife.

[Prose]

I remember Admiral for Weber deal almost going through. Man was I an idiot for wanting that. He was on the decline and Weber was still younger. Would have changed the face of the organization. So careful what you wish for. I mean look how is Oden and Granger doing right now???

Omg I remember that!!!

[Mel_13]

Spurs have had the same money as other teams when it comes to ability to spend, but willingness to spend has not always been there.

I don't believe that's true.

All teams play under the same rules, but the Spurs have not had the cap space to pursue major free agents in any summer since 2003. In nearly every year since 2003 their payroll has been greater than it would have been had they pursued a strategy of creating large amounts of cap space.


Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA.

Name the significant free agents since Jason Kidd that meet your descriptiion.

[Mel_13]

:lol Presti had three Top 5 picks in 3 years. The Spurs haven't drafted in the lottery in 17 years tbh.

Four:

Durant
Green
Westbrook
Harden

[DPG21920]

I don't believe that's true.

All teams play under the same rules, but the Spurs have not had the cap space to pursue major free agents in any summer since 2003. In nearly every year since 2003 their payroll has been greater than it would have been had they pursued a strategy of creating large amounts of cap space.



Name the significant free agents since Jason Kidd that meet your descriptiion.

Spurs on numerous occassions have forgone the opportunity to pay luxury tax, this seems to be pretty well understood. In order to do number two, I would need to know the context of your definition of "significant" free agents as my thoughts may differ. I think the question truly is, list all of the players the Spurs have been linked to, then sort into categories of "likely" vs "completely fabricated", and then review the reasons.

[Mel_13]

Spurs on numerous occassions have forgone the opportunity to pay luxury tax, this seems to be pretty well understood. In order to do number two, I would need to know the context of your definition of "significant" free agents as my thoughts may differ. I think the question truly is, list all of the players the Spurs have been linked to, then sort into categories of "likely" vs "completely fabricated", and then review the reasons.

They've been just below or just above the tax line in almost every year for the last decade. Going that last bit over the tax, or going well over the tax, does not change the amount available to pursue free agents.

For the second one, use any definition you like. Just keep to your own parameters (Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA.) If it's happened so often, you should have no problem providing a few examples.

[Johnny RIngo]

Kinda gave up on Spurs attracting star FAs after seeing fucking Corey Maggette turn us down for the Warriors.

[Johnny RIngo]

Says a lot that we made a Finals run last year and the best player we could attract was that Italian piece of shit(who actually makes our team worse when he plays)

[xmas1997]

Kinda gave up on Spurs attracting star FAs after seeing fucking Corey Maggette turn us down for the Warriors.

I figured the same thing after AK47 went to the Nets for less money.

[Mel_13]

Kinda gave up on Spurs attracting star FAs after seeing fucking Corey Maggette turn us down for the Warriors.

Perfect example. That summer the Spurs had the MLE (5yrs/32M). Maggette signed with GS for 5yrs/50M.

[DMC]

Like most things, it's many factors. Spurs have had the same money as other teams when it comes to ability to spend, but willingness to spend has not always been there.

Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA. They don't like the city, it's a small market with limited opportunity for additional endorsements/money making & they would be playing 4th fiddle at best. Then you factor in the defense/playing for Pop and that's not everyone's cup of team. This is just a job for many and while they like to win, it's not at the top of the list. Having fun, making money and getting the spotlight is important for most and SA is not the place for that overall.

Intentional or not, I'm going to steal that one.

[DPG21920]

While your first part is true (no cap space), the use of exceptions, namely the MLE in years where they didn't pay taxes is one example of willingness. That's why I asked you to define "significant". They haven't been spurned by top dollar FA's because they haven't had top dollar cap space. But in the exceptions pool or limited cap space pool, SA has not been a hot bed for attracting players. Spurs in Duncan's early years ('99 - 2003) had cap space on a decently regular basis. With regards to the Luxury Tax, Spurs have only paid that 5 times in their history and it adds up to a very small total amount overall (outside of 2009 IIRC where they paid the most LT). That is the "willingness" I was referring to.

What I also want to understand is what you are trying to argue: Are you arguing that FA's do not spurn SA? Are you trying to say that the Spurs have pretty freely spent about as much as other top contenders/FA destinations? Both?

But to name a few players: Jason Kidd, Granger, AK47, Caron Butler, Karl Malone (rumors about him in 2004), Might be able to throw Stephen Jackson in there (I think he was a FA when they made him an offer that led to him signing with ATL vs locking him up).

You can argue the severity of those FA, but unless you are trying to argue that FA's generally like to play SA and SA has had success with FA's, it seems pretty clear that FA is a struggle for SA. You can argue that they didn't have max cap space or "equal money" (which I disagree when they had the full MLE many times and elected to either not use or spread out) or you could argue they do what they do because they know it's difficult to land FA's. Its tough.

[DPG21920]

Intentional or not, I'm going to steal that one.

:lol It was not intentional but I noticed it and then elected not to fix it because I liked it. So it was intentionally unedited.

[Mel_13]

While your first part is true (no cap space), the use of exceptions, namely the MLE in years where they didn't pay taxes is one example of willingness. That's why I asked you to define "significant". They haven't been spurned by top dollar FA's because they haven't had top dollar cap space. But in the exceptions pool or limited cap space pool, SA has not been a hot bed for attracting players. Spurs in Duncan's early years ('99 - 2003) had cap space on a decently regular basis. With regards to the Luxury Tax, Spurs have only paid that 5 times in their history and it adds up to a very small total amount overall (outside of 2009 IIRC where they paid the most LT). That is the "willingness" I was referring to.

What I also want to understand is what you are trying to argue: Are you arguing that FA's do not spurn SA? Are you trying to say that the Spurs have pretty freely spent about as much as other top contenders/FA destinations? Both?

But to name a few players: Jason Kidd, Granger, AK47, Caron Butler, Karl Malone (rumors about him in 2004), Might be able to throw Stephen Jackson in there (I think he was a FA when they made him an offer that led to him signing with ATL vs locking him up).

You can argue the severity of those FA, but unless you are trying to argue that FA's generally like to play SA and SA has had success with FA's, it seems pretty clear that FA is a struggle for SA. You can argue that they didn't have max cap space or "equal money" (which I disagree when they had the full MLE many times and elected to either not use or spread out) or you could argue they do what they do because they know it's difficult to land FA's. Its tough.

I was responding to your post. Specifically: "Even the times the Spurs were willing to spend equal/similar money, players have spurned SA"

IMO, that greatly oversimplifies and overstates the reality and I don't believe can be supported by reference to available facts.

[DPG21920]

Ok, so, even if you want to focus on that narrow sentence: my list is there.

[Mel_13]

Ok, so, even if you want to focus on that narrow sentence: my list is there.

That's why I quoted it in my original question to you.

As with many of our debates, this one is descending into the rabbit hole, but I'll bite. :lol

Kidd: My original question to you asked for examples after Kidd in 2003.

Malone: That's one.

Butler and Granger: I don't consider either of those significant, although I suppose it's debatable. At any rate, Butler signed with OKC for more than the Spurs or the Heat were able to offer.

AK47: That was a weird, possibly illegal, situation. He opted out of 10M. Couldn't agree with any team in the NBA, then signs for 3M with the Russian billionaire.

Jack: The Spurs offered a huge raise over his previous deal. His agent wanted much more and wouldn't return Pop's calls or make a counter proposal. The Spurs traded for Hedo and withdrew their offer. Jackson couldn't get his price from any team in the NBA and signed the one year deal in Atlanta.

[Johnny RIngo]

That's why I quoted it in my original question to you.

As with many of our debates, this one is descending into the rabbit hole, but I'll bite. :lol

Kidd: My original question to you asked for examples after Kidd in 2003.

Malone: That's one.

Butler and Granger: I don't consider either of those significant, although I suppose it's debatable. At any rate, Butler signed with OKC for more than the Spurs or the Heat were able to offer.

AK47: That was a weird, possibly illegal, situation. He opted out of 10M. Couldn't agree with any team in the NBA, then signs for 3M with the Russian billionaire.

Jack: The Spurs offered a huge raise over his previous deal. His agent wanted much more and wouldn't return Pop's calls or make a counter proposal. The Spurs traded for Hedo and withdrew their offer. Jackson couldn't get his price from any team in the NBA and signed the one year deal in Atlanta.

IIRC, Spurs also went after Jermaine O'Neal and Webber during the early 2000s.

[BackHome]

Everyone knows playing for Pop is no joke and that we run a system and if you don't like it well you won't get any playing time. Also for a single guy why would you come to SA vs. Miami, Cali, etc...as I said before player listen to Charles.

[Mel_13]

IIRC, Spurs also went after Jermaine O'Neal and Webber during the early 2000s.

They made overtures to O'Neal in the same summer (2003) that they pursued Kidd.

I don't believe that they ever pursued Webber in free agency, although there are reports that they considered trading Robinson for him.

[Mel_13]

Interesting discussion, but it's time to head out for the arena.

:flag:

[DPG21920]

Interesting discussion, but it's time to head out for the arena.

:flag:

Get it!

[Vito Corleone]

Interesting tidbit I learned from a real estate broker I know.

He attended a forum put on by the city, right now the Growth in San Antonio projects the city to be the 5th largest city in America by 2025. It also projects the San Antonio/ Austin markets to merge into one of the top 6 markets in the country surpassing places like The San Francisco Bay area, and Philadelphia and Boston.

As far as small markets go, this area will not be small for much longer.

[xmas1997]

Interesting tidbit I learned from a real estate broker I know.

He attended a forum put on by the city, right now the Growth in San Antonio projects the city to be the 5th largest city in America by 2025. It also projects the San Antonio/ Austin markets to merge into one of the top 6 markets in the country surpassing places like The San Francisco Bay area, and Philadelphia and Boston.

As far as small markets go, this area will not be small for much longer.

Good, then maybe we can get MLB and NFL teams.
I've been saying this for the last twenty years, and that we should build an international airport halfway between the two cities.

[DMC]

:lol It was not intentional but I noticed it and then elected not to fix it because I liked it. So it was intentionally unedited.
You need to tweet that so you own it.

[davidbowie]

San Antonio is boring. The end.