Updated Top Five Greatest Players of All Time

[ezau]

PG: Magic
SG: Michael Jordan
C: Kareem
PF: Duncan
SF: Bird

[Killakobe81]

Not bad.

[Killakobe81]

But LeBron has a case at SF

[ezau]

But LeBron has a case at SF

Yeah, I was torn between Lebron and Bird, but I gave the edge to Bird because of his mental toughness and overall leadership.

[ohmwrecker]

Bird also accomplished more with far less physical blessings and athletic gifts.

[RsxPiimp]

Bird over Lebron for sure.

[100%duncan]

Updated? Who you had for PF before Timmy rang?

[baseline bum]

I'd take James over Bird. Bird's better offensively, but I can't imagine Larry Bird locking Tony Parker up in an entire series.

[lefty]

I'd take James over Bird. Bird's better offensively, but I can't imagine Larry Bird locking Tony Parker up in an entire series.
Well James ahs better athleticism

I would love to see Lebron could do if he had Bird's white genes TBH

[RsxPiimp]

I'd take James over Bird. Bird's better offensively, but I can't imagine Larry Bird locking Tony Parker up in an entire series.

This is true, but they're different athletes. I can't imagine Lebrun imposing his will like Bird, evident by his paltry 3.8 ppg and 1 assist to 2 turnover ratio in 3 consecutive 4th quarter blowout losses.

[baseline bum]

This is true, but they're different athletes. I can't imagine Lebrun imposing his will like Bird, evident by his paltry 3.8 ppg and 1 assist to 2 turnover ratio in 3 consecutive 4th quarter blowout losses.

Prime Bird got swept by Milwaukee. I'd say LeBron imposed his will pretty well in Game 7 last year.

[Jodelo]

LeBron over Bird!

[RsxPiimp]

Prime Bird got swept by Milwaukee. I'd say LeBron imposed his will pretty well in Game 7 last year.

Fwiw, it was rumored mcHale and Maxwell laid down and threw the series away because they hated Fitch who was under pressure to improve the Celtics. It's probably not a coincidence that he resigned after the sweep. Bird has nothing to do with it and was fuming.

Lebron's game 7 was great, can't take that away from him but overall I still think Lebron checked out in this series.

[Blake]

I think Bird gets underrated way too often, but he had some stacked teams.

James has more MVPs and has taken two teams (07, 14) to the finals with little to no help.

James> Bird

[ezau]

I think Bird gets underrated way too often, but he had some stacked teams.

James has more MVPs and has taken two teams (07, 14) to the finals with little to no help.

James> Bird

Wade is easily a top 15 player last year while Bosh is one of the top big men until this year's ECF. They also have the game's greatest shooter in Ray Allen in their back-to-back championships. Lebron has legitimate help ever since he joined Miami in 2010.

[RsxPiimp]

I think Bird gets underrated way too often, but he had some stacked teams.

James has more MVPs and has taken two teams (07, 14) to the finals with little to no help.

James> Bird
I'll give you 2007 but 2014? No freaking way. People forget how huge Allen, Bosh, Lewis and even Wade was in the East playoffs. Birdman too. :lol

[Clipper Nation]

I'll give you 2007 but 2014? No freaking way. People forget how huge Allen, Bosh, Lewis and even Wade was in the East playoffs. Birdman too. :lol
But I thought the East was trash and the Heat won it by default? Now performing against the trash East is somehow an accomplishment when it's time to inflate LeBron's supporting cast in order to put down LeBron?

If anything, finally having to play a real contender exposed the supporting cast for what it was in 2014: old washed-up players and scrubs.... LeBron did everything he could, but the Spurs were so good and the rest of the Heat so bad this year that one player was not going to be able to cover up the rest of the team's flaws....

[Blake]

But I thought the East was trash and the Heat won it by default? Now performing against the trash East is somehow an accomplishment when it's time to inflate LeBron's supporting cast in order to put down LeBron?

If anything, finally having to play a real contender exposed the supporting cast for what it was in 2014: old washed-up players and scrubs.... LeBron did everything he could, but the Spurs were so good and the rest of the Heat so bad this year that one player was not going to be able to cover up the rest of the team's flaws....

Yeah that's pretty much how I see it.

Take James off the Heat. After you get past Wade, Bosh and old Ray Allen, what's left on that roster? Do they even make the playoffs? I don't think so.

The 80s Celtics had plenty enough to get to the playoffs without Bird.

[024]

Now that the finals are over, we can talk legacy. Losing again in the finals definitely hurts Lebron's legacy. It's now pretty unlikely for him to surpass Jordan. He would have to win 5 more titles. Doable, but unlikely. I think his days of chasing the GOAT is over.

Lebron can still salvage his legacy. If he wins 2-3 more championships, he can still challenge Duncan. If he wins 1-2 more (with finals MVP of course), he can challenge Kobe. Honestly if Lebron landed between Duncan and Kobe on the all time list, that is still a pretty damn good career.

[Brunodf]

Where´s the update? :bang

[Sportcamper]

PG: Magic
SG: Kobe
C: Wilt
PF: Rudy La Russa
SF: West

[Arnold Toht]

Magic
Kobe
MJ
Kareem
Wilt

[Phillip]

Now that the finals are over, we can talk legacy. Losing again in the finals definitely hurts Lebron's legacy. It's now pretty unlikely for him to surpass Jordan. He would have to win 5 more titles. Doable, but unlikely. I think his days of chasing the GOAT is over.

I don't think it hurts it that much. Fact is, they were far overmatched by a superior team. That's not his fault, and at the very least, he played a good series and did what he could. The only one that really hurts his legacy was the loss to Dallas, because he didn't exactly have a stellar series, regardless of the fact that Dallas was a better team. At least in this series, he did what he could.

Being very overlooked, is how awful of a coach Spoelstra is, and the effect it had on this series. Especially when it comes to defensive adjustments, and his poor management of Wade.

[RsxPiimp]

But I thought the East was trash and the Heat won it by default? Now performing against the trash East is somehow an accomplishment when it's time to inflate LeBron's supporting cast in order to put down LeBron?

If anything, finally having to play a real contender exposed the supporting cast for what it was in 2014: old washed-up players and scrubs.... LeBron did everything he could, but the Spurs were so good and the rest of the Heat so bad this year that one player was not going to be able to cover up the rest of the team's flaws....
The East is trash, but no way Miami goes past Indiana without huge games from Lewis and Birdman.

That said, trolling aside, I don't like it when people puts emphasis on Lebron's help when we all know the Spurs are simply just the better team.

[RsxPiimp]

I would like to say though, for the record, that Lebron shouldn't get blame for this series, he was excellent but its just not what we expect from an All Time Great at the height of his career. He's so great he can sleepwalk to a 28ppg on crazy efficiency but that only tells half of the story. Unfair as it may sound, casual fans expects any great players to come out swinging especially from one who is virtually unstoppable on offense.

Lebron's a great dude tho, as a Kobe stan, I have nothing but respect for him.

[024]

I don't think it hurts it that much. Fact is, they were far overmatched by a superior team. That's not his fault, and at the very least, he played a good series and did what he could. The only one that really hurts his legacy was the loss to Dallas, because he didn't exactly have a stellar series, regardless of the fact that Dallas was a better team. At least in this series, he did what he could.

Being very overlooked, is how awful of a coach Spoelstra is, and the effect it had on this series. Especially when it comes to defensive adjustments, and his poor management of Wade.
It hurts him in GOAT consideration. Jordan always had that aura of invincibility after he won his first championship. It would be hard for Lebron to catch up now. But like I said, landing somewhere between Duncan and Kobe on the all time list would still be a great accomplishment.

[Phillip]

It hurts him in GOAT consideration. Jordan always had that aura of invincibility after he won his first championship. It would be hard for Lebron to catch up now. But like I said, landing somewhere between Duncan and Kobe on the all time list would still be a great accomplishment.

Jordan always had depth along with the most well built team in the league in all his championships.

In these past 4 Finals appearances, Miami's opponents were a more well built, deeper team in each series, including the 2 they won. They won the first one off of good matchups (OKC didn't match up well at all with Miami), and the second one off of sheer will (SA was clearly the more well built, balanced team last year).

[Arcadian]

I've had Duncan in the top 5 since 2003. I knew at the time that his peak was top 5-worthy, and he had a good chance of piling up the accomplishments. Now, 11 years later, it's good to see people finally coming around to it. :toast

[Phillip]

That said, trolling aside, I don't like it when people puts emphasis on Lebron's help when we all know the Spurs are simply just the better team.

They are the same thing. Him not having enough help, means his team was not good enough. His team not being good enough, means the Spurs were the better team. People just like to get butthurt over stupid, miniscule things. Especially spurfans.

[Cry Havoc]

PG: Magic
SG: Michael Jordan
C: Kareem
PF: Duncan
SF: Bird

That's my top 5 of all time, as well, though in this order: Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Bird. James knocking on the door for the best SF ever.

[baseline bum]

That's my top 5 of all time, as well, though in this order: Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Bird. James knocking on the door for the best SF ever.

Nah man, James kicked down that door with his 37 in Game 7 last year.

[Cry Havoc]

Nah man, James kicked down that door with his 37 in Game 7 last year.

Eh. I could see that argument. However, Bird in his prime was insane. 28 10 and 6.6 with almost 2 steals and a block per game. Fucking phenomenal especially considering his relative lack of athleticism.

But yeah, I still give Bird the nod because in a season or two it won't even matter, LeBron will be a top 5 player of all-time along with Duncan.

[hitmantb]

My top 10 using the simple but objective rings + MVP + FMVP formula.

For tie breakers, MVP > FMVP > rings.

Jordan: 6 rings + 6 FMVP + 6 MVP = 18 points
Russell: 11 rings + 5 MVP = 16 points (didn't have FMVP award in his era, but the league had too few teams and not enough talents back then)
Kareem: 6 rings + 2 FMVP + 6 MVP = 14 points
Magic: 5 rings + 3 FMVP + 3 MVP = 11 points
Duncan: 5 rings + 3 FMVP + 2 MVP = 10 points (I knew Kwahi deserved it, but I wish Duncan got it)
LeBron: 2 rings + 2 FMVP + 4 MVP = 8 points
Bird: 3 rings + 2 FMVP + 3 MVP = 8 points
Shaq: 4 rings + 3 FMVP + 1 MVP = 8 points
Kobe: 5 rings + 2 FMVP + 1 MVP = 8 points
Wilt: 2 rings + 1 FMVP + 4 FMVP = 7 points

[ezau]

That's my top 5 of all time, as well, though in this order: Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Bird. James knocking on the door for the best SF ever.

I listed them according to the best players to ever play their respective positions. And yes, if Lebron wins another championship in his career, he will obviously dislodge Bird at the SF position.

[ezau]

My top 10 using the simple but objective rings + MVP + FMVP formula.

For tie breakers, MVP > FMVP > rings.

Jordan: 6 rings + 6 FMVP + 6 MVP = 18 points
Russell: 11 rings + 5 MVP = 16 points (didn't have FMVP award in his era, but the league had too few teams and not enough talents back then)
Kareem: 6 rings + 2 FMVP + 6 MVP = 14 points
Magic: 5 rings + 3 FMVP + 3 MVP = 11 points
Duncan: 5 rings + 3 FMVP + 2 MVP = 10 points (I knew Kwahi deserved it, but I wish Duncan got it)
LeBron: 2 rings + 2 FMVP + 4 MVP = 8 points
Bird: 3 rings + 2 FMVP + 3 MVP = 8 points
Shaq: 4 rings + 3 FMVP + 1 MVP = 8 points
Kobe: 5 rings + 2 FMVP + 1 MVP = 8 points
Wilt: 2 rings + 1 FMVP + 4 FMVP = 7 points

Solid and objective formula, tbh. However, I couldn't possibly rank Russell over Kareem because we all know that Kareem is far and away the better individual player than Russell. Also, using that formula, Robert Horry would have the same number of points as Kobe because of the number of rings.

[ezau]

Magic
Kobe
MJ
Kareem
Wilt

Notice how you conveniently put two shooting guards to make way for Kobe:lol Kobe is not and will never be the best at his position, so he's not part of this list. Duncan>Kobe

[Cry Havoc]

Solid and objective formula, tbh. However, I couldn't possibly rank Russell over Kareem because we all know that Kareem is far and away the better individual player than Russell. Also, using that formula, Robert Horry would have the same number of points as Kobe because of the number of rings.

You could preface it by making a requirement at least one mvp or finals mvp. Therefore Horry and other ringed players wouldn't qualify.

[ezau]

You could preface it by making a requirement at least one mvp or finals mvp. Therefore Horry and other ringed players wouldn't qualify.

Agreed. That's a solid requirement.

[Arcadian]

I still give Bird the nod because in a season or two it won't even matter, LeBron will be a top 5 player of all-time along with Duncan.

If you can say that, then he should already be in the top 5. He has already hit his peak 2 years ago. I think we should be choosing players at their peak, rather than basing it on the number of accomplishments. As has been said, Duncan didn't magically become top 5 by winning his fifth ring. He has already been top 5, and people are just finally realizing it.

[ezau]

If you can say that, then he should already be in the top 5. He has already hit his peak 2 years ago. I think we should be choosing players at their peak, rather than basing it on the number of accomplishments. As has been said, Duncan didn't magically become top 5 by winning his fifth ring. He has already been top 5, and people are just finally realizing it.

The 5th ring was the definitive proof that Duncan needed to reach Top 5. There's no questioning his legacy now.

[Cry Havoc]

If you can say that, then he should already be in the top 5. He has already hit his peak 2 years ago. I think we should be choosing players at their peak, rather than basing it on the number of accomplishments. As has been said, Duncan didn't magically become top 5 by winning his fifth ring. He has already been top 5, and people are just finally realizing it.

Completely disagree. If you *only* go by peak, then Shaq is probably #1 all time, with Jordan and Hakeem at 2 and 3. Going by peak alone would make Tracy McGrady a top 10 player all-time.

[Arcadian]

Completely disagree. If you *only* go by peak, then Shaq is probably #1 all time, with Jordan and Hakeem at 2 and 3. Going by peak alone would make Tracy McGrady a top 10 player all-time.

I'll put it like this...Imagine that you're building a team, and you can choose from any player in history at his peak. Longevity still matters because you want this team to be competetive for as long as possible. But you're still going to pick each player based on his prime performance, because that's clearly the best thing to. It's not like you can choose an abstraction of a player across time.

Comparing players across time is always hypothetical and abstract, but I'm just trying to make it somewhat practical.

[Cry Havoc]

I'll put it like this...Imagine that you're building a team, and you can choose from any player in history at his peak. Longevity still matters because you want this team to be competetive for as long as possible. But you're still going to pick each player based on his prime performance, because that's clearly the best thing to. It's not like you can choose an abstraction of a player across time.

Comparing players across time is always hypothetical and abstract, but I'm just trying to make it somewhat practical.

Why not just, "Hey, if you were having a fantasy draft with every player in history in it, who would you take?"

That clarifies things a lot for me. Jordan would be #1. Jabbar 2. Magic 3. Duncan would go probably 4th or 5th. No need for emphasis on "peaks" when you're talking about the greatest ever to play the game. They all had sensational peaks. At that point, longevity might be worth even more, because it denotes how many years a Hall of Famer could give his team a chance to ring.

[Arcadian]

Why not just, "Hey, if you were having a fantasy draft with every player in history in it, who would you take?"

That clarifies things a lot for me. Jordan would be #1. Jabbar 2. Magic 3. Duncan would go probably 4th or 5th. No need for emphasis on "peaks" when you're talking about the greatest ever to play the game. They all had sensational peaks. At that point, longevity might be worth even more, because it denotes how many years a Hall of Famer could give his team a chance to ring.

They had sensational peaks, but not equivalent. If the idea is to hypothetically compare players from different times, we need to control for age differences by comparing each at their absolute best. So I think it's pretty important to emphasize the peak.