Welcome To $3.00 Gas! [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

Nbadan

08-17-2005, 12:15 AM

LOS ANGELES — Lots of things cost about three bucks, from a pair of socks to a takeout burrito. But one of life's essentials has never made the list.
By Jeff Chiu, AP

Until now.

A handful of service stations in California, Illinois, Nevada, Washington state and Hawaii have begun selling self-serve unleaded regular gasoline for — gulp — $3 or more a gallon. Truckers are enduring three-buck diesel fuel in some places. (Video: Prices continue to troll record highs)

With oil prices continuing to climb — worries about refinery outages pushed oil to trade at a record $67.10 a barrel last week before it dropped back to $66.27 Monday — $3 gas is a trend that could eventually spread.

Of course, gasoline isn't the first product to crash through the electric fence of pricing. No one drops a dime for a local pay-phone call anymore. It's been eons since Motel 6 charged $6 a night. But as the lifeblood of daily commuters, long-haul truckers and teenagers going on dates, fuel can make tempers flare faster than just about any other commodity. (Audio: Prices not likely to come down until fall.)

"It's robbery," said Robert Mercado, 59, a corporate security manager from Yorba Linda, Calif., as he pumped $3.09-a-gallon unleaded regular at a Texaco station in Los Angeles last week.

The drift toward the dreaded $3 mark would make gasoline the most expensive it has ever been even on an inflation-adjusted basis, not just a nominal one. Gas hit a record $1.417 in March 1981, the Energy Department says. Adjusted for inflation, that's $3.04 today.

Gas prices have a long way to go before $3 becomes the norm rather than the exception. The government said Monday that gas averaged a nominal record $2.550 a gallon, up 18.2 cents over the past week. Motorist club AAA said its average Monday was $2.48, up 7.1 cents overnight. Among states, California was the most expensive at $2.758; South Carolina the cheapest at $2.337.

Price shock

Leading the gas price parade are the stations selling unleaded regular for $2.999 and up — 19 of them out of 92,792 in a daily survey by GasBuddy.com, a Web site that tracks gas prices daily using reports from consumers. Metro areas where motorists may stumble upon the most expensive self-serve regular in the country include Chicago, Los Angeles, the San Francisco Bay Area, San Diego and the Hawaiian island of Maui.

The first reaction is usually shock. "Three dollars? You got to be kidding me. That's crazy," said Mike Lewis, 33, a Houston-based sales manager, recounting his thoughts as he pulled into the $3.09-a-gallon Texaco station near Los Angeles International Airport.

Moving on up to $4.00

:hat

Nbadan

08-17-2005, 12:37 AM

Joining me on the program is Matthew Simmons. He’s Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Simmons & Company International, a Houston-based investment bank that specializes in the energy industry. Mr. Simmons serves on the boards of Brown-Forman Corporation, The Atlantic Council of The United States, he’s also a member of the National Petroleum Council and The Council of Foreign Relations. He has an MBA from Harvard University. And he’s here to discuss his new book Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy.

http://www.financialsense.com/Experts/2005/images/twilight.gif

Let me tell you what the numbers were all about, because I had not thought about this until yesterday and today. In 1990 the United States was still producing 7.3 million bpd of crude oil, today it’s 5.1; the 7.3 was after a drop over the previous 5 years of 1.6 million bpd; our refineries only needed to run at 13 ½ million bpd; and we only needed to import 5.8 million bpd of crude oil imports to balance our system. Today we have to run our refineries at 100% or we have major product shocks; today, we have to import 10-11 million bpd, or we lose crude oil stocks; we have to basically create almost 3 million bpd of finished product imports; we have to run the system on a 24-7, all Summer long. And we still liquidate stocks.

So we have actually now created a pending domestic embargo, and we’re going to be lucky to get through the Summer without some periodic shortages. We probably will, but the odds are probably as high we will have some shortages, and then if we get through the Summer we have a fabulous respite from Labor Day to Thanksgiving, until we hunker to try to figure out how the world gets through the Winter of 2005 and 2006 because oil demand globally could easily go to 86-88 million bpd during the Winter, and that could easily exceed supply by 2-5 million bpd.[38:53]

JIM: If that was to happen we would almost be looking at $75-80 oil, I suspect.

MATT: No, no, no. Oil prices could easily go up 5-10 times.

:wow

whottt

08-17-2005, 01:53 AM

It's W's fault America is the most Oil dependent country in the World....

It's W's fault that America is running out of Oil....

He makes NBAdan get into that car every day....

Trainwreck2100

08-17-2005, 02:09 AM

It's W's fault America is the most Oil dependent country in the World....

It's W's fault that America is running out of Oil....

He makes NBAdan get into that car every day....

It's W's fault I don't have a girlfriend.......Bastard.

smeagol

08-17-2005, 06:03 AM

RandomGuy

08-17-2005, 07:18 AM

How can people attack/defend so much Bush?

For some of you, he is not responsible for anything that goes wrong, for others he is the culprit for everything that goes wrong.

Some people lack a "fair and balanced" view of things.

It is not Bush so much as his party. The GOP has for the most part controlled both houses of congress and the executive branch of our government. This has given him the rare chance to call for *some* vision when it comes to energy independence. We got pork (special interest-laden waste)

There are a few things I think Bush has gotten somewhat right, but I will *never* forgive him for the Iraq f***-up.

You are right that no few number of people either go into the hater or apologist camp. American politlics has gotten a wee bit acrimonious.

Clandestino

08-17-2005, 08:44 AM

It is not Bush so much as his party. The GOP has for the most part controlled both houses of congress and the executive branch of our government. This has given him the rare chance to call for *some* vision when it comes to energy independence. We got pork (special interest-laden waste)

There are a few things I think Bush has gotten somewhat right, but I will *never* forgive him for the Iraq f***-up.

You are right that no few number of people either go into the hater or apologist camp. American politlics has gotten a wee bit acrimonious.

yeah, because only republicans drive cars, heat/cool their homes, etc...
:rolleyes

Hook Dem

08-17-2005, 09:50 AM

Hook Dem

08-17-2005, 09:58 AM

even IF bush/cheney isn't Responsible for oil/gas being so high

i'm sure they're not too too sad about it

remember, when b/c gets out of office they go back to being your average multimegabillionaires
Do I detect a twang of jealousy? :lol Seriously though... it reminds me of the guy on the street interviewing people and he approached a drunken street bum. He asked the drunk what he would do differently if he was in charge. The drunk said, " Thats easy. I'd divide all of the money up equally amongst everyone." The commentator said, " Okay, let's think about that for a moment. Don't you think that money would end up back in the same hands in a short period of time?" The drunk replied, " No no, you don't understand. I mean divide it up every saturday night." :lol :lol :lol

Vashner

08-17-2005, 10:47 AM

Nbadan

08-17-2005, 12:36 PM

ANWAR would be a drop in the bucket compared to the country's need. The WH energy policy is a joke, and worse yet, the politicians and lobbyists know they have a captive audience...

U.S. author forecasts $5 gas by next year

CHICAGO, Aug. 17 (UPI) -- An oil expert and author who correctly forecast $3 per gallon gasoline in the United States this year says the price will reach $5 next year.

Craig Smith, author of "Black Gold Stranglehold," told the Chicago Sun-Times there's also a possibility the price could hit $10 per gallon if terrorists strike a major Middle East oil field.

Last year, Smith predicted $3-a-gallon gas and $65-a-barrel crude oil prices this year, and now says oil prices will jump to $80 a gallon by the end of 2006.

....

"Why are they charging higher prices for gas? Because people will pay it," he told the Sun-Times.

Science Daily (http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20050817-10042300-bc-us-gasprices-prediction.xml)

whottt

08-17-2005, 01:25 PM

How can people attack/defend so much Bush?

For some of you, he is not responsible for anything that goes wrong, for others he is the culprit for everything that goes wrong.

Some people lack a "fair and balanced" view of things.

W is the most viciously attacked President in American History...the attacks on this guy, the Democrat Propaganda against...are absolutely brutal.

Call the guy a murderer, say he was behind 911, accuse him of doing nothing other than trying to make money...

Sorry but that shit is out of line for a sitting President of the United States attempting to guide us through one of the most difficult eras in US history(and it's not really his fault this era is so difficult).

Look...it's easy to not like W...

I hated this fucker when he ran in 2000...I just hated the guy.

There is just something about his face that makes him easy to dislike...

Then you hear him talk like a redneck and realize he's a silver spoon, Daddy's little Boy, rich boy, frat boy...and it's even easier to hate him.

Add to that the fact that the guy won the Presidency without winning the popular vote....every President that has become President that way is on the list of the most hated Presidents ever.

Throw in 911 and the Terror problem...

And you have the recipe for the most hated President in US history.

But people need to stop reacting based on their animal instincts...they need to look at the situation, how it was created, and how he has reponded to it...

Do those things and you gain a lot more respect for what the man has done in this era....Silver Spoon Rich Boy or not.

Take a good hard look at World History, the Roman Empire for example and you'll will the thought processes behind the Iraq War..

Poor people hate Rich people as a general rule...and there are always more poor than Rich...and the Poor always end up getting the Rich...

So making the mid east Richer(in humanitarian terms) is not a bad solution to this problem...

And cultural change is a domino effect...

And the one thing I have come to like about this President...he doesn't give a fuck if anyone likes him...that's a rare quality in a politician...and it's one that is an absolute necessity given the current political climate....and he does love this country...the good guy image of it....and I think he is sincere in his desire to spread Democracy and Freedom in the middle east...yes it sounds idealistic...but if you look at his history he has a trend of being this way...

He was Pro-VietNam War...he's just a red blooded American...maybe not the smartest guy in the World...but that's not always the top requirement for a President...one who will stick to his guns in the face of tremendous political pressure is an important quality...and the list of Presidents that have had that is a short one.

I think W has been good President...and I never would have believed that in 2000 when he was elected...I hated him more than anyone on this board. I raised hell when he won. I wasn't particularly happy when we went into Iraq...it wasn't until I saw who the Democrats were throwing up there...and the way they were trying to run this country and lead it down a path of desctruction...that I came to appreciate W as a President.

Set aside your hate and do some research...W has been a pretty good President all things considered...and smeagol...you can't just apply some commie philosophy that everything is halfway inbetween...without doing some research.

Duff McCartney

08-17-2005, 01:29 PM

We should all drive around in Tahoes and spend 10 gallons of gas less.

cherylsteele

08-17-2005, 03:32 PM

Let's pop that cork on Alaska... We can use a new Mega City and NBA Franchise out in the Artic Refuge.. Also banning close to shore drilling along the Gulf Coast and California cause democrats cried about spills..

Please either get a bicycle and stfu or help GW suck Alaska dry....

hahahahahah

Or we could encourage development of alternative fuels,

Nuclear Power....It is
Solar power.
Wind power.
maybe other new types of fuels not even thought about.

If we could have put as much energy into new fuel development as we do in other government endeavors we might well not be in the predicaament that we are in now.

Nbadan

08-17-2005, 03:33 PM

Well, at least the Iraqi get new schools, new roads, a whole new infra-structure, Oh yeah, and 5 cent gas...

Motorists struggling with high gas prices in the United States and Europe may be surprised to learn that consumers in Iraq pay as little as 5 cents a gallon, according to the International Monetary Fund's first assessment of the Iraqi economy in 25 years.

Thanks to generous government subsidies on petroleum products — which the IMF criticized as a threat to the country's fragile economy — Iraq has some of the cheapest gas in the world.

By contrast, Americans pay about $2.55 a gallon and Britons pay $6.24. Iraqis also pay much less for a gallon of regular gasoline than in nearby countries such as Iran (38 cents), Jordan ($1.89) and Syria ($1.74).

Even the many Iraqis who pay higher, black-market prices at the pump often make money by smuggling gasoline into neighboring countries such as Turkey, according to the International Monetary Fund's 62-page report released Monday.

San Francisco Gate (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2005/08/17/international/i101243D80.DTL)

boutons

08-17-2005, 04:59 PM

Relax, we aren't completely screwed yet. shrub is still working on it.
Just keep bending over and grinning.

2005 USA gasoline is still a lot cheaper than 1981 gas.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/Gasoline_Inflation.asp

Aggie Hoopsfan

08-17-2005, 05:04 PM

smeagol

08-17-2005, 05:43 PM

W is the most viciously attacked President in American History...the attacks on this guy, the Democrat Propaganda against...are absolutely brutal.

Call the guy a murderer, say he was behind 911, accuse him of doing nothing other than trying to make money...

Sorry but that shit is out of line for a sitting President of the United States attempting to guide us through one of the most difficult eras in US history(and it's not really his fault this era is so difficult).

Look...it's easy to not like W...

I hated this fucker when he ran in 2000...I just hated the guy.

There is just something about his face that makes him easy to dislike...

Then you hear him talk like a redneck and realize he's a silver spoon, Daddy's little Boy, rich boy, frat boy...and it's even easier to hate him.

Add to that the fact that the guy won the Presidency without winning the popular vote....every President that has become President that way is on the list of the most hated Presidents ever.

Throw in 911 and the Terror problem...

And you have the recipe for the most hated President in US history.

But people need to stop reacting based on their animal instincts...they need to look at the situation, how it was created, and how he has reponded to it...

Do those things and you gain a lot more respect for what the man has done in this era....Silver Spoon Rich Boy or not.

Take a good hard look at World History, the Roman Empire for example and you'll will the thought processes behind the Iraq War..

Poor people hate Rich people as a general rule...and there are always more poor than Rich...and the Poor always end up getting the Rich...

So making the mid east Richer(in humanitarian terms) is not a bad solution to this problem...

And cultural change is a domino effect...

And the one thing I have come to like about this President...he doesn't give a fuck if anyone likes him...that's a rare quality in a politician...and it's one that is an absolute necessity given the current political climate....and he does love this country...the good guy image of it....and I think he is sincere in his desire to spread Democracy and Freedom in the middle east...yes it sounds idealistic...but if you look at his history he has a trend of being this way...

He was Pro-VietNam War...he's just a red blooded American...maybe not the smartest guy in the World...but that's not always the top requirement for a President...one who will stick to his guns in the face of tremendous political pressure is an important quality...and the list of Presidents that have had that is a short one.

I think W has been good President...and I never would have believed that in 2000 when he was elected...I hated him more than anyone on this board. I raised hell when he won. I wasn't particularly happy when we went into Iraq...it wasn't until I saw who the Democrats were throwing up there...and the way they were trying to run this country and lead it down a path of desctruction...that I came to appreciate W as a President.

Set aside your hate and do some research...W has been a pretty good President all things considered...and smeagol...you can't just apply some commie philosophy that everything is halfway inbetween...without doing some research.
whottt, why the fuck are you going off on me?

My comment was more for people such as boutons, who no matter what Bush does, in his eyes it is wrong, or guys such as TRO, who whatever Bush does, for him nobody could've done it better.

I don't hate the guy at all. I have no feelings either way. I'm against the war he started but I agree with many other of his iniciatives.

And your last paragraph,

you can't just apply some commie philosophy that everything is halfway inbetween

WTF does that mean?

Again trying to peg me as a commie. As I said before, that is as far from the truth as you can go. I'm a right wing guy who hates communism.

I can't understand how my comment on being moderate made you go off on a rant like this one.

Please re-read what I wrote and drink a soda.

whottt

08-17-2005, 05:51 PM

Where and when did I go off on you?

You asked a simple question without bias....I explained to you why I personally defend him...you wanted an answer to your question didn't you? I gave you a very detailed one...without standard trigger phrases used by most people when discussing him.

I gave you the view of a person who absolutely despised W...and who has changed his stance. I gave you the reasons why and I hope you will investigate their validity rather than just trusting all the things you hear reported in the mass media.

I was not going off on you...the commie thing was kind of a joke...but I don't really think you can just be a middle of the roader on this subject...

smeagol

08-17-2005, 05:54 PM

jochhejaam

08-17-2005, 06:41 PM

A gallon of gas is still cheaper than milk.

And here's something for you to chew on... the printer ink you throw in your home printer? It costs about $6000 a gallon.

Don't see you bitching about that though.

And scorpion venom is currently going for $38,858,507.46 per gallon...

http://www.cockeyed.com/science/gallon/liquid.html

Hook Dem

08-17-2005, 06:44 PM

We should all drive around in Tahoes and spend 10 gallons of gas less.
Your jealousy is just killing you isn't it school Boy. :lol

boutons

08-17-2005, 09:08 PM

"are absolutely brutal"

shrub was selected by the Repug machine for TX governor (remember, he didn't want to be gov), and then for US prez, because they, with revolting cynicism and calculation, knew shrub would be the perfect, ignorant, malleable tool without a brain of his own and puppet to spout whatever crap the Repug machine put in his unthinking, incompetent, illiterate mouth.

So now shrub is the pinata for that whole cynical ratshit of Repug money- and power-grubbing. If anybody doubts this scenario, remember the immediate, freight-train, brutal, nothing-else-counts priority of the Repugs as soon as they took office was not US security, but tax cuts for the rich and the corps, rammed through brutally in record time, while shrub was talking about going after Iraq in the very first cabinet meeting in early 2001. The US govt raped and sodomized as spoils of political war.

For Iraq alone, shrub and his accomplices deserve every fucking pinata whack, 1000 times over. fucking war criminals, shrub, dickhead, Powell, Rice, Wolfowitz, Rummy, Rove. What a band of insane motherfuckers.

Duff McCartney

08-17-2005, 11:49 PM

Your jealousy is just killing you isn't it school Boy. :lol

Yes, your hypocrisy makes me insanely jealous.

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 08:40 AM

Yes, your hypocrisy makes me insanely jealous.
You still haven't explained how I am a hypocrit. Yes....I drive a Tahoe. No.....it doesn't get 10 mpg....it gets 21. I don't drive much. Are you just parroting what others are saying or do you have a mind of your own? Thought so!!!!!

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 11:37 AM

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 11:50 AM

Hypocrisy. You're telling everybody that they should use 10 less gallons. Then you're going around driving a Tahoe. If you used ten gallons less, you'd probably be using the normal amount somebody who's not using ten gallons less is.

Buy a more gas efficient car, then you can tell everybody to "use less gas."

FYI, cowboy, not everyone can fit in a small car. Some people need to haul things on a regular basis. Some people need the flexibility to transport many people on an irregular basis and can't afford two vehicles.

Extra Stout

08-18-2005, 11:56 AM

Extra Stout

08-18-2005, 12:02 PM

FYI, cowboy, not everyone can fit in a small car. Some people need to haul things on a regular basis. Some people need the flexibility to transport many people on an irregular basis and can't afford two vehicles.
Fine. Then those people will have to pay for the privilege of a fuel-inefficient vehicle that can do those things. We can give farmers (not agribusiness) another tax break for their pickups. That's OK.

However, clearly there are a lot of people who drive needlessly large and heavy vehicles as a lifestyle statement or a style preference, and not because of need.

They are fully within their rights to drive whatever they want. But they have no right to bitch about gas prices because the expense is a result of their own choices. They're not entitled to live however they want to live cheaply.

P.S. The new Mazda5 seats six, starts below $18,000, and gets 21/26 with the auto tranny.

Vashner

08-18-2005, 12:08 PM

Yea you think Jane Fonda is gonna keep her food oil burning van after her tour?
She owns a Gulfstream IV and maybe 10 other vehicles including a couple limos.

I doubt it...
You think John Kerry saying shit about SUV's when he had 2 in his driveway then tried to lie "oh those are not mine" hahah... remember that one?

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 12:21 PM

We can give farmers (not agribusiness) another tax break for their pickups. That's OK.

A farmer IS agribusiness. People like to bitch about "corporate farms" but in reality that's just families forming S Corporations & LLC's to: 1. either get larger or sell out & quit; 2. Keep the farm at least somewhat intact & in the family; 3. Spread out the tax load from one good year over the next 5 bad ones.

However, clearly there are a lot of people who drive needlessly large and heavy vehicles as a lifestyle statement or a style preference, and not because of need.

No argument. 80% of pickups, in fact.

They are fully within their rights to drive whatever they want. But they have no right to bitch about gas prices because the expense is a result of their own choices. They're not entitled to live however they want to live cheaply.

You know most people will never take responsibility for their own actions, it's always someone else's fault.

P.S. The new Mazda5 seats six, starts below $18,000, and gets 21/26 with the auto tranny.

Yes, it seats five people, but does it seat five 'Mericans? (And 26 mpg sucks for such a small car. Hell, my diesel pickup gets almost 20 mpg and is infinitely more useful.)

Extra Stout

08-18-2005, 12:27 PM

A farmer IS agribusiness. People like to bitch about "corporate farms" but in reality that's just families forming S Corporations & LLC's to: 1. either get larger or sell out & quit; 2. Keep the farm at least somewhat intact & in the family; 3. Spread out the tax load from one good year over the next 5 bad ones.Cargill and ADM have nothing to do with families.

And the U.S. government, under the pressure of the agribusiness lobby, has rigged the market so that the family farm is no longer competitive.

But that's another issue.

Extra Stout

08-18-2005, 12:37 PM

Yes, it seats five people, but does it seat five 'Mericans? (And 26 mpg sucks for such a small car. Hell, my diesel pickup gets almost 20 mpg and is infinitely more useful.)
Italians aren't exactly small, and they fit into Fiats. Large cars are a luxury, not a necessity.

And our lardass lifestyle is tied in part to the way we use our cars.

26 mpg means 24% better fuel efficiency than 20 mpg. And comparing a diesel engine to a gasoline engine is completely apples and oranges. You paid a $2000 premium at a minimum for that diesel engine.

And if the utility of your pickup offsets the expense of fueling it, then wonderful. I just provided the 5 as an example against the argument that people who need something more than a subcompact sedan have no fuel-efficient options.

The Prius, all the "hybrid" hype aside, is a very efficient package -- it has the interior room of a Camry in a much smaller package. Its funny wedge shape makes it extremely aerodynamic.

Europe has tons of space-efficient people-movers that get good mileage. They don't sell those in the States because people prefer big SUV's if gas is cheap. Well, gas isn't cheap anymore.

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 12:38 PM

Duff is right.

If Hook Dem had not gotten on his soapbox and preached that everybody needs to use less gas, then what he drives himself would not be a big issue.

And no, 21 MPG is not that impressive if you're taking it upon yourself to preach to everyone about what they need to do. That's like preaching about marital fidelity, then claiming you're not a hypocrite because you've never gone further than oral with another woman.

If he'd said something more like, "If you're that bothered by the gas prices, then find a way to use less gas," then it wouldn't matter what he drives because clearly he's well within his rights to drive whatever he wants if he's willing to pay to keep it fueled.
You're blaspheming me for getting 21 mpg and turn around and advise me to get a mazda5 that gets 21-26mpg? How fucking stupid are you? When I said everyone should use 10 gallons less per week, I was including myself. That seems to be something you and Duff overlook so you can spread your hate in this forum. I was not preaching to anyone! I was just thinking out loud like everyone else on this forum. Sometimes you just can't talk to stupid people with an agenda of their own. Thanks for your input!

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 12:44 PM

Italians aren't exactly small, and they fit into Fiats. Large cars are a luxury, not a necessity.

Well, we'll agree to disagree. Depends on what your definition of "small" is. I've spent a non-trivial amount of time in Europe and the biggest car I rode in was an Opel Vectra. (The equivalent of a Cadillac Catera). I wouldn't have had enough legroom to operate the clutch in a manual version.

I crap bigger'n Italians. :lol

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 12:46 PM

If you drive a vehicle that gets 21 mpg and drive 100 miles per week, are you worse than someone who drives a vehicle that gets 30 mpg and drives 200 miles a week?

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 12:47 PM

AYou know most people will never take responsibility for their own actions, it's always someone else's fault.

That's exactly what Hook Dem is doing. Why do you think he doesn't believe what he says is hypocrisy?

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 12:48 PM

If you drive a vehicle that gets 21 mpg and drive 100 miles per week, are you worse than someone who drives a vehicle that gets 30 mpg and drives 200 miles a week?
EXACTLY!

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 12:49 PM

That's exactly what Hook Dem is doing. Why do you think he doesn't believe what he says is hypocrisy?
I feel sorry for you that you have a personal vendetta, You know what? Fuck you!

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 12:49 PM

That's exactly what Hook Dem is doing. Why do you think he doesn't believe what he says is hypocrisy?

Not everyone has the option of buying a more efficient vehicle. Whether he does or not is his business.

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 12:51 PM

Not everyone has the option of buying a more efficient vehicle. Whether he does or not is his business.
Thank you very much! At least someone gets it

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 12:51 PM

If you drive a vehicle that gets 21 mpg and drive 100 miles per week, are you worse than someone who drives a vehicle that gets 30 mpg and drives 200 miles a week?

Well for a 21 MPG car to drive 100 miles you'd need 5 gallons of gas. For a 30 MPG car to drive 200 miles you'd need about 6.5 gallons of gas.

So for only 1.5 gallons more of gas you go twice the distance than a car that gets 21 MPG.

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 12:54 PM

The haves and the have nots. The have nots are still blaming the haves for their problems. Some things never change!

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 12:56 PM

Well for a 21 MPG car to drive 100 miles you'd need 5 gallons of gas. For a 30 MPG car to drive 200 miles you'd need about 6.5 gallons of gas.

So for only 1.5 gallons more of gas you go twice the distance than a car that gets 21 MPG.
Maybe I don't need to go 200 miles!!!! Can't get that through your thick skull can you? You know you're on a personal vendetta cause you don't like me. Why don't you just give it up?

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 12:57 PM

You're a stupid fool if you think I'm blaming you for any problems I or anybody has.

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 12:58 PM

Maybe I don't need to go 200 miles!!!! Can't get that through your thick skull can you? You know you're on a personal vendetta cause you don't like me. Why don't you just give it up?

So you're saying that with that Tahoe you've never gone 200 miles? Ever? Damn you really need to get out more. I'm sure that Tahoe has more than 200 miles on it.

That applies to more than just one trip for 200 miles dumbass.

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 12:58 PM

Well for a 21 MPG car to drive 100 miles you'd need 5 gallons of gas. For a 30 MPG car to drive 200 miles you'd need about 6.5 gallons of gas.

So for only 1.5 gallons more of gas you go twice the distance than a car that gets 21 MPG.

What if I need to haul 2 tons of feed? Say for argument's sake that I could get 1/2 a ton in the smaller vehicle (20X50lb. sacks). That's four roundtrips vs. one.

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 12:58 PM

You're a stupid fool if you think I'm blaming you for any problems I or anybody has.
Then why do you keep harping about my Tahoe? You're exposed!!!!!!

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 01:00 PM

You two....Separate!

Don't make me come back there.:lol

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 01:01 PM

So you're saying that with that Tahoe you've never gone 200 miles? Ever? Damn you really need to get out more. I'm sure that Tahoe has more than 200 miles on it.

That applies to more than just one trip for 200 miles dumbass.
Oh, you must be mad now...calling me a dumbass. I have never blamed anyone for my choices and I wouldn't rag on you for yours. To each his own. Have a nice day!

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 01:03 PM

You two....Separate!

Don't make me come back there.:lol
:lol :lol :lol It's okay SWC. We've locked horns before and it seems to be a personal thing for Duff. He's harmless.

smeagol

08-18-2005, 01:05 PM

The haves and the have nots. The have nots are still blaming the haves for their problems. Some things never change!
Who's the "haves" and who's the "have nots"?

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 01:09 PM

Who's the "haves" and who's the "have nots"?
:lol Nice try! I'm not gonna open that can of worms.

smeagol

08-18-2005, 01:12 PM

:lol Nice try! I'm not gonna open that can of worms.
Honest question, Hook.

Is it because you are rich (because you own a Tahoe) and Duff is poor (he can't pay $700 back to Jim)?

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 01:17 PM

Honest question, Hook.

Is it because you are rich (because you own a Tahoe) and Duff is poor (he can't pay $700 back to Jim)?
I was just referring to Duff's attitude. I am certainly not rich. Probably have less than most on this forum. I happen to like the performance of my Tahoe and Duff doesn't have any right to lump me in the rich class just because I drive one. Thats my point! okay?

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 02:14 PM

I was just referring to Duff's attitude. I am certainly not rich. Probably have less than most on this forum. I happen to like the performance of my Tahoe and Duff doesn't have any right to lump me in the rich class just because I drive one. Thats my point! okay?

Please tell me when I ever lumped you into the rich class. I never said anything about you being rich. I said your hypocrisy is what makes you stupid.

smeagol

08-18-2005, 02:14 PM

I was just referring to Duff's attitude. I am certainly not rich. Probably have less than most on this forum. I happen to like the performance of my Tahoe and Duff doesn't have any right to lump me in the rich class just because I drive one. Thats my point! okay?
Um . . . ? . . . okay . . . so you are rich then. :lol

Extra Stout

08-18-2005, 02:31 PM

You're blaspheming me for getting 21 mpg and turn around and advise me to get a mazda5 that gets 21-26mpg? How fucking stupid are you? Apparently not as fucking stupid as you, since I wasn't responding to your post when I mentioned that vehicle.

And your 21 mpg is exceptional for a vehicle rated at 15/19. Apparently you are very gentle with the gas pedal. That does save gas. It would save gas on any vehicle.

When I said everyone should use 10 gallons less per week, I was including myself. That seems to be something you and Duff overlook so you can spread your hate in this forum. I was not preaching to anyone! I was just thinking out loud like everyone else on this forum. Sometimes you just can't talk to stupid people with an agenda of their own. Thanks for your input!10 gallons less in a vehicle getting 21 miles per gallon like yours adds up to 210 fewer miles per week. That's 30 fewer miles per day. If you have a short commute as you say, where exactly are you going to squeeze out 30 miles a day from your routine? Where the hell are you going that you drive 30 miles every day around the city not including your commute?

If you make an unrealistic argument, don't be surpised when it gets ripped apart.

SWC Bonfire

08-18-2005, 02:50 PM

The flipside is that by changing their driving habits slightly, people who drive higher consumption vehicles have a greater net change on demand than those who more drastically change their driving habits in lower consumption vehicles, assuming similar mileage & neglecting traffic factors.

cherylsteele

08-18-2005, 07:27 PM

My ex roommate has a huge F250 and is now complaining about gas prices. He owns no farms or does any constant hauling. He likes it because it is big. He uses it just as as his get around vehicle, just like a "regular" car. He is having to curb back his driving greatly. I always wondered why he had a big truck for just "running around".

He is now in the market for a small compact car.

BTW...if you know of anyone selling a small car for under $1000 let me know.

Mileage is not a factor...he is very mechanically inclined (he is an ex-mechanic). He wants a car that runs and is in decent shape.

for what its worth I own a Hyundai Accent. I have curb my driving somewhat, but not as much a some. It cost me around $23.00 to fill up my tank. I get around 33 MPG.

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 07:27 PM

Apparently not as fucking stupid as you, since I wasn't responding to your post when I mentioned that vehicle.

And your 21 mpg is exceptional for a vehicle rated at 15/19. Apparently you are very gentle with the gas pedal. That does save gas. It would save gas on any vehicle.

10 gallons less in a vehicle getting 21 miles per gallon like yours adds up to 210 fewer miles per week. That's 30 fewer miles per day. If you have a short commute as you say, where exactly are you going to squeeze out 30 miles a day from your routine? Where the hell are you going that you drive 30 miles every day around the city not including your commute?

If you make an unrealistic argument, don't be surpised when it gets ripped apart.
Well.......let's rip you apart! I'm retired and don't have a commute. Understand now? I don't have a routine.

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 08:09 PM

Well.......let's rip you apart! I'm retired and don't have a commute. Understand now? I don't have a routine.

Translation:

"I'm old...I don't have to do shit."

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 08:13 PM

Translation:

"I'm old...I don't have to do shit."
Tears you apart doesn't it? :lol Have a nice evening Duff!

Duff McCartney

08-18-2005, 08:42 PM

Tears you apart doesn't it? :lol Have a nice evening Duff!

Man...you have some serious issues. You think everybody who is bashing your ignorance is jealous of your old ass. You aren't that special old man.

Hook Dem

08-18-2005, 09:09 PM

Man...you have some serious issues. You think everybody who is bashing your ignorance is jealous of your old ass. You aren't that special old man.
"Everybody who is bashing your ignorance" ? Let's see now....that would be you and Extra Stout. Pardon me if I'm not worried. Like I told you before one time.....keep acting like this and you are never gonna grow old. That, I can guarantee! I don't have Any issues....serious or otherwise. If we were face to face....I'd whip your dumb ass! :flipoff

Guru of Nothing

08-18-2005, 09:24 PM

Translation:

"I'm old...I don't have to do shit."

As opposed to .... I'm young and I dont have to do shit?

MannyIsGod

08-18-2005, 09:25 PM

As opposed to .... I'm young and I dont have to do shit?
:lmao

Extra Stout

08-18-2005, 09:59 PM

"Everybody who is bashing your ignorance" ? Let's see now....that would be you and Extra Stout. Pardon me if I'm not worried. Like I told you before one time.....keep acting like this and you are never gonna grow old. That, I can guarantee! I don't have Any issues....serious or otherwise. If we were face to face....I'd whip your dumb ass! :flipoff
Wait... so you're just some retired grandpa living in town who takes his Tahoe out for a spin?

Sheyitt. Never mind. Carry on. Sorry.

Nbadan

08-18-2005, 11:33 PM

Oil companies can say what they want about helping out consumers, sorry Scott, but the re-investment dollars don't lie...

Goldman: Crude To Stay High Long Term
August 18, 2005

Goldman Sachs raised its U.S. oil price forecast for the rest of this year Thursday by $13.50 to $67 a barrel as demand outstrips supply and the industry sits on billions of dollars it could invest in finding new oil.

The investment bank, which dominates the commodities markets, also increased its average U.S. price forecast for 2006 by $13 to $68 a barrel and said it expected longer-term oil contracts to hold firm at around $60 a barrel, reflecting the increased financial risk of getting extra oil out of the ground.

Even with prices at close to record levels, it said oil companies were sitting on huge cash piles rather than pouring money into new projects because of uncertainty over their profitability.

"Even at current high price levels, re-investment rates appear to be falling not rising, pushing industry cash reserves near $500 billion," Goldman Sachs Commodity Research said in a note.

CNN (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/18/markets/goldman.reut/in...
)

MannyIsGod

08-18-2005, 11:44 PM

Newflash: Private corporations care dick about what is good for anything but their shareholders.

cecil collins

08-19-2005, 01:21 AM

I wholeheartedly agree.

Spam

08-19-2005, 01:24 AM

That is their job.

Nbadan

08-19-2005, 02:22 AM

When most companies in any other industry make record profits they reinvest at least some of that extra money, not return it to their stock-holders, but as I showed in the previous post Oil companies aren't doing this, see they have found it much more lucrative to invest that money in Republican and Democratic campaign coffers

Washington, D.C. - Institute for Public Accuracy - infoZine - Wenonah Hauter is director of Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy and Environment Program; Hauter said yesterday: "Since Bush became president, the largest five oil companies operating in the U.S. -- ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, ConocoPhillips, BP and Shell -- have enjoyed profits of $254 billion, with ExxonMobil leading the way with profits of $89 billion.

"Clearly, there is a direct correlation between record prices paid by consumers and record profits enjoyed by oil companies. For example, the profit margin for U.S. oil refiners has shot up 79 percent from 1999 (the year Exxon and Mobil merged) to 2004. But rather than hold these price-gougers responsible, the energy bill signed by Bush this month gives $6 billion in tax breaks and subsidies to oil companies."

James Paul, executive director of the Global Policy Forum, has written several reports about oil including "Oil in Iraq: The Heart of the Crisis." He said yesterday: "Exxon, as the world's biggest and most profitable company, wields enormous power in Washington and in most other capitals as well. The company has plenty of lobby funds, as it enjoys more revenue than 185 national governments. Exxon has blocked a U.S. national policy on climate change and fought against environmental laws. Oil company interests are not only crucial in the war in Iraq, but also other conflicts, such as Iran. As world oil supplies begin to diminish, big oil dreams of ever-higher profits, and more oil wars to seize new and lucrative concessions."

Infozine (http://www.infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/9702)

and so the war circle goes round and round...

Nbadan

08-19-2005, 04:27 PM

http://www.cagle.com/working/050816/billday.jpg

http://www.cagle.com/working/050817/sheneman00.gif

http://www.cagle.com/working/050816/deering.gif

MannyIsGod

08-19-2005, 04:35 PM

Dan, you're not breaking news here. This is the way Washington works, and while I don't like it both sides of the aisle do it. The energy bill is a fuck up, and I said so from the moment I read it and it's tax breaks.

But, I'm not sad one bit that Oil Company CEOs are making money. Let them do so, because the increased cost the the average American is the only thing that is going to move us away from oil. Do you expect the oil companies to shoot their own foot?

Nbadan

08-19-2005, 04:44 PM

Do you expect the oil companies to shoot their own foot?

Of course not, but as Scott has posted before there is more than enough oil out there to alleviate today's rising prices, it's just that oil companies have no incentive to get at this oil because it not 'sweet crude' and it will cost more and take more time to process, or because they are looking at higher prices reducing demand in the July numbers just released. I remember when this happened under Clinton W responded that he would 'jawbone' the Saudis, well, George, its time for you to jawbone somebody alright- your oil TX buddies.

Nbadan

08-21-2005, 03:18 AM

In case you missed it, don't miss this Chilling article by Peter Maass of the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/21/magazine/21OIL.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1124588192-+++KbWdgoBU19Mt7S0XMZQ) concerning the Laws of Oil supply and demand...

The Breaking Point
By PETER MAASS
Published: August 21, 2005

The largest oil terminal in the world, Ras Tanura, is located on the eastern coast of Saudi Arabia, along the Persian Gulf. From Ras Tanura's control tower, you can see the classic totems of oil's dominion -- supertankers coming and going, row upon row of storage tanks and miles and miles of pipes. Ras Tanura, which I visited in June, is the funnel through which nearly 10 percent of the world's daily supply of petroleum flows. Standing in the control tower, you are surrounded by more than 50 million barrels of oil, yet not a drop can be seen.

The oil is there, of course. In a technological sleight of hand, oil can be extracted from the deserts of Arabia, processed to get rid of water and gas, sent through pipelines to a terminal on the gulf, loaded onto a supertanker and shipped to a port thousands of miles away, then run through a refinery and poured into a tanker truck that delivers it to a suburban gas station, where it is pumped into an S.U.V. -- all without anyone's actually glimpsing the stuff. So long as there is enough oil to fuel the global economy, it is not only out of sight but also out of mind, at least for consumers.

I visited Ras Tanura because oil is no longer out of mind, thanks to record prices caused by refinery shortages and surging demand -- most notably in the United States and China -- which has strained the capacity of oil producers and especially Saudi Arabia, the largest exporter of all. Unlike the 1973 crisis, when the embargo by the Arab members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries created an artificial shortfall, today's shortage, or near-shortage, is real. If demand surges even more, or if a producer goes offline because of unrest or terrorism, there may suddenly not be enough oil to go around.

<snip>

In the past several years, the gap between demand and supply, once considerable, has steadily narrowed, and today is almost negligible. The consequences of an actual shortfall of supply would be immense. If consumption begins to exceed production by even a small amount, the price of a barrel of oil could soar to triple-digit levels. This, in turn, could bring on a global recession, a result of exorbitant prices for transport fuels and for products that rely on petrochemicals -- which is to say, almost every product on the market. The impact on the American way of life would be profound: cars cannot be propelled by roof-borne windmills. The suburban and exurban lifestyles, hinged to two-car families and constant trips to work, school and Wal-Mart, might become unaffordable or, if gas rationing is imposed, impossible. Carpools would be the least imposing of many inconveniences; the cost of home heating would soar -- assuming, of course, that climate-controlled habitats do not become just a fond memory.

It's not a matter of if so much as a matter of when anymore. Demand will soon surpass supply.

Nbadan

08-21-2005, 03:33 AM

Says who? Says the US Energy Department...

One of the starkest warnings came in a February report commissioned by the United States Department of Energy's National Energy Technology Laboratory. ''Because oil prices have been relatively high for the past decade, oil companies have conducted extensive exploration over that period, but their results have been disappointing,'' stated the report, assembled by Science Applications International, a research company that works on security and energy issues. ''If recent trends hold, there is little reason to expect that exploration success will dramatically improve in the future. . . . The image is one of a world moving from a long period in which reserves additions were much greater than consumption to an era in which annual additions are falling increasingly short of annual consumption. This is but one of a number of trends that suggest the world is fast approaching the inevitable PEAKING of conventional world oil production.''

The reference to ''peaking'' is not a haphazard word choice -- ''peaking'' is a term used in oil geology to define the critical point at which reservoirs can no longer produce increasing amounts of oil. (This tends to happen when reservoirs are about half-empty.) ''Peak oil'' is the point at which maximum production is reached; afterward, no matter how many wells are drilled in a country, production begins to decline. Saudi Arabia and other OPEC members may have enough oil to last for generations, but that is no longer the issue. The eventual and painful shift to different sources of energy -- the start of the post-oil age -- does not begin when the last drop of oil is sucked from under the Arabian desert. It begins when producers are unable to continue increasing their output to meet rising demand. Crunch time comes long before the last drop.

''The world has never faced a problem like this,'' the report for the Energy Department concluded. ''Without massive mitigation more than a decade before the fact, the problem will be pervasive and will not be temporary. Previous energy transitions (wood to coal and coal to oil) were gradual and evolutionary; oil peaking will be abrupt and revolutionary.''

Ny Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/21/magazine/21OIL.html?pagewanted=3&adxnnl=0&adxnnlx=1124588192-+++KbWdgoBU19Mt7S0XMZQ)

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 03:35 AM

By the way, this is what I posted would happen to gas prices in 05. (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8491) Please keep in mind I posted this on January 2-4, 05...

1. Gas Prices - Gas prices will continue to fluctuate between 1.50 and 2.00 per gallon, but a short-term crisis could raise the price of oil to close to 3.00-4.00 per gallon in some parts of the country. It will be a harsh winter in the East with home heating costs eating up much of people's expendable income. Some will perish from trying to save money on heating costs in freezing temperatures. Some businesses and government buildings will be forced to close to conserve electricity and heating oil. Old man winter will bring the NE to a virtual standstill for days and it will be difficult to meet the demand of heating costs. For some reason, I'm seeing the Ohio region to be especially susceptible for a catastrophe.

The demand for oil from India's and China's growing infrastructure will continue forcing gas prices to increase dramatically by the end of the year. Expect to be paying 2.00 average if not more. The oil wars of Afghanistan and Iraq will spread to more countries surrounding the Caspian Sea region, including likely Iran. A successful terrorist attack on Saudi Arabia's oil infrastructure could be the catalyst that sends oil prices souring.

Hummm....Never did complete the last 3 predictions in that post, but I got a pretty high hit-miss ratio going.

MannyIsGod

08-22-2005, 07:13 AM

:lmao

Yeah dude, don't hurt your arm with all the self back clapping.

Spurminator

08-22-2005, 10:05 AM

You also predicted $4/gallon by the end of last year, but who's keeping track?

And we're still waiting for that imminent draft now that Bush has been re-elected. But he wasn't going to be re-elected anyway.

You're right, 1 out of 4 is pretty good.

;)

Duff McCartney

08-22-2005, 10:35 AM

http://www.music-atlas.com/images/meat_loaf_1.jpg

2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 01:09 PM

You also predicted $4/gallon by the end of last year, but who's keeping track?

Umm, no. That's something that you keep posting that has no basis in reality. I predicted $4 gas, but never gave a immediate timeline.

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 01:15 PM

2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Actually, of the 7 predictions I made in January, I'm running about 75%.

Energy prices......check
Mad Cow in US.....check
Iraq Insurgency growing....check
Hurricanes, tornado, floods....check
Guantanamo Bay Abuse.....check
Elli Lilly and Vioxx.....check...just announced this week
The 2005 Military draft....not yet, but the year ain't over.

SWC Bonfire

08-22-2005, 01:18 PM

Umm, no. That's something that you keep posting that has no basis in reality. I predicted $4 gas, but never gave a immediate timeline.

I predict my imcome will be higher than $1,000,000.00. No timeline.

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 01:19 PM

Actually, of the 7 predictions I made in January 05, I'm running about 86%.

Energy prices......check
Mad Cow in US.....check
Iraq Insurgency growing....check
Hurricanes, tornado, floods....check
Guantanamo Bay Abuse.....check
Elli Lilly and Vioxx.....check...just announced this week
The 2005 Military draft....not yet, but the year ain't over.

SWC Bonfire

08-22-2005, 01:19 PM

Nbadan, don't even act like you know anything about Mad Cow disease...

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 01:24 PM

I predict my imcome will be higher than $1,000,000.00. No timeline.

I predict you'll make $1,500,000.00. See how that works.

:lol

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 01:26 PM

Nbadan, don't even act like you know anything about Mad Cow disease...

I don't, but I'm pretty certain its here and the FDA is being hush about it to protect the cattle industry..

Spurminator

08-22-2005, 01:27 PM

Umm, no. That's something that you keep posting that has no basis in reality. I predicted $4 gas, but never gave a immediate timeline.

The thread title was "$4 Gallon in 2004."

Somebody back me up here.

MannyIsGod

08-22-2005, 01:27 PM

:lmao Those predictions are so fucking vague and pretty obvious. You're worse than Ms. Cleo!

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 01:29 PM

Didn't see you sticking your neck out, but then again you never do.

You'd rather just treat us all as conspiracy theorists.

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 01:30 PM

The thread title was "$4 Gallon in 2004."

No, the tread was called $4 Gas.

MannyIsGod

08-22-2005, 01:39 PM

Didn't see you sticking your neck out, but then again you never do.

You'd rather just treat us all as conspiracy theorists.
Well, what do you want me to make predictions on Dan? I just don't understand the entire point out the obvious and pat yourself on the back when it happens.

Spurminator

08-22-2005, 01:41 PM

Uh, no. I doubt a "$4 Gas Sometime in the Inestimible Future" would have gotten pages and pages of argument.

Fortunately for you, it was in the old forum, so it's not archived.

Clandestino

08-22-2005, 01:41 PM

well, shit, i predict the average prices of houses will one day 1 million dollars... no timeline though

Spurminator

08-22-2005, 01:42 PM

Spurminator says: President George W. Bush could die of a Heart Attack at some point during his final term as President.

If this happens, I expect you all to bow down to my unmatched predictive power.

bigzak25

08-22-2005, 01:57 PM

i don't like the high gas prices either, jesus, it cost me 37 and change to fillup my lumina on saturday.

i've chosen to look at it as my contribution to the troops as i'm hoping for every gallon of gas i pump, a soldier gets a little more equipment, armor, whatever, to help the cause. Godbless them all. :tu

Nbadan

08-22-2005, 02:04 PM

SWC Bonfire

08-22-2005, 02:07 PM

I don't, but I'm pretty certain its here and the FDA is being hush about it to protect the cattle industry..

Well, it would be the USDA if there was a coverup, not the FDA.

The fact is that not much is known about BSE. Only that a causal relationship was found by the buildup of free-radical like molecules known as prions in dairy cattle and other cattle on high-protein rations fed rendered sheep intestines (among other things) to bump up the protein levels. Any slaughered calf or yearling will not have appreciable buildup of prions and therefore BSE, a fact that even Japan and other markets have resigned themselves to believing. Not to mention that a majority of the 96 million beef cattle in the US are given a very low protein diet of grass and grains. Why? Because protein is expensive.

Your beef is safe. If you're concerned about getting an old cow (even though NOT ONE PERSON EVER has gotten the human variant of BSE by eating an American cow, or Canadian for that matter), buy steaks and whole cuts of meat; they almost never come from old animals. If you want ground beef, get them to grind it for you from identifiable cuts of meat (ground round, sirloin, chuck, etc.)