MORE INFO: Man who was shot dead on London subway.

[Useruser666]

http://www.itv.com/news/index_1677571.html


Mistakes led to tube shooting
"I heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage" - Surveillance team member
Mistakes led to tube shooting
11.05PM, Tue Aug 16 2005

ITV News has obtained secret documents and photographs that detail why police shot Jean Charles De Menezes dead on the tube.

The Brazilian electrician was killed on 22 July, the day after the series of failed bombings on the tube and bus network.

The crucial mistake that ultimately led to his death was made at 9.30am when Jean Charles left his flat in Scotia Road, South London.

Surveillance officers wrongly believed he could have been Hussain Osman, one of the prime suspects, or another terrorist suspect.

By 10am that morning, elite firearms officers were provided with what they describe as "positive identification" and shot De Menezes eight times in the head and upper body.

The documents and photographs confirm that Jean Charles was not carrying any bags, and was wearing a denim jacket, not a bulky winter coat, as had previously been claimed.

He was behaving normally, and did not vault the barriers, even stopping to pick up a free newspaper.

He started running when we saw a tube at the platform. Police had agreed they would shoot a suspect if he ran.

A document describes CCTV footage, which shows Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station at a "normal walking pace" and descended slowly on an escalator.

The document said: "At some point near the bottom he is seen to run across the concourse and enter the carriage before sitting in an available seat.

"Almost simultaneously armed officers were provided with positive identification."

A member of the surveillance team is quoted in the report. He said: "I heard shouting which included the word `police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket.

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."

The report also said a post mortem examination showed Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed, with the casings left lying in the tube carriage.

Police have declined to comment while the mistaken killing is still being investigated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4157892.stm


Leak disputes Menezes death story
Jean Charles de Menezes' body after he was shot dead. Credit: ITV news
An image leaked to ITV shows Mr de Menezes lying dead in a train
Leaked documents appear to contradict the official account of how police mistook a Brazilian man for a suicide bomber and shot him.

The papers, from the probe into Jean Charles de Menezes' death, and leaked to ITV, suggest he was restrained before being shot eight times.

Mr de Menezes, 27, was killed at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has said it will not comment on its investigation.

Public inquiry

The documents, including witness statements, also suggest Mr de Menezes did not hurdle the barrier at Stockwell tube station, as first reports previously suggested, and was not wearing a padded jacket that could have concealed a bomb.

The family of Mr de Menezes has called for a public inquiry into his death.

Jean Charles de Menezes
The leak suggests the electrician was restrained before shot

His cousin Allessandro Pereira said: "My family deserve the full truth about his murder. The truth cannot be hidden any longer. It has to be made public."

He said the police should have stopped his cousin before he got to the bus stop after leaving home in Tulse Hill. "He would have helped the police," he said.

"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone, any English person."

In a statement, the IPCC said it does not know where the documents came from and that its priority was to keep Mr de Menezes family informed.

'Acting suspiciously'

The shooting occurred the day after the failed bomb attacks of 21 July.

The latest documents suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers, had started to run when he saw a train arriving and was sitting down in a train when he was shot.

In the immediate aftermath of the incident, police said Mr de Menezes had been acting suspiciously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.


The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so
IPCC statement

Police also said the Brazilian electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.

The leaked version said Mr de Menezes was being restrained by a community officer when he was shot by armed police.

'High security'

The IPCC would not comment on the details of the leak.


What sort of society are we living in where we can execute suspects?
Harriet Wistrich

The commission said the family "will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death".

Its statement added: "The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so. That remains the case."

The commission said it operated a "very high degree of security" on all of its investigations.

'Great embarrassment'

Harriet Wistrich, solicitor for the family of Mr de Menezes, said the information the leaked documents contained was "terrifying".

She urged the government and police to review the shoot-to-kill policy.

"What sort of society are we living in where we can execute suspects?" she said.

"First of all it tells us that the information that was first put out, which was first reported in the news, is almost entirely wrong and misleading.

"There was no suggestion that this person was a suspect in any way, that he was running from the police".

She said it also suggested the information given to the pathologist who carried out the post-mortem examination on Mr de Menezes was incorrect.

Former Flying Squad commander John O'Connor told the BBC the leaked report would cause "great embarrassment" to Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair, adding he would be under pressure to "go".

He also said it was "very difficult" to blame individuals for the death of Mr de Menezes.

"Simply because it would appear that they were acting on information that this was a positive identification of Osman [Hussain], one of the suspect bombers.

"But had the normal procedures taken place in which a warning is given and officers wear specially marked clothing then this young man may not have been killed."

Scotland Yard and the Home Office have so far said it would be inappropriate to comment.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4157892.stm

Uh-oh, Spaghetti-O's.

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,221209,00.jpg

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1738517,00.html

Leaked report lists 'blunders' as police shot bomb suspect
By Daniel McGrory and Stewart Tendler

SCOTLAND YARD made “a series of catastrophic errors” that led to armed officers hunting the July 21 bombers shooting dead an innocent Brazilian, it was claimed last night.

Leaked witness statements from officers who took part in the botched operation reveal that Jean Charles de Menezes was restrained by one of Scotland Yard’s surveillance team before being shot eight times as he sat on a Tube train.

Documents and photographs from the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation also reveal that one of the undercover team meant to be identifying the shot man was relieving himself as Mr de Menezes left his flat on July 22, so could not tell if they had traced Hussain Osman, one of the alleged bombers. It is also suggested that Mr de Menezes could have been taken alive.

Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, will come under pressure to explain how a sophisticated police operation went so badly wrong.

An ITV News investigation claims that when Mr de Menezes, 27, was challenged by police on the Northern Line train at Stockwell he did not make any aggressive move. Police claims at the time that the electrician was “behaving erratically” are alleged to be false.

The blunders began as Mr de Menezes emerged from his flat in Tulse Hill in South London at 9.30am. The undercover officer who was meant to identify anyone leaving the flats admitted that he had left his post, so could not communicate observations or take video footage.

His advice was, “It would be worth someone else having a look”, to ensure that they had the right man. No other officer apparently took a picture of him, although Mr de Menezes had to take a bus to the station. Even so, Gold Command at Scotland Yard, which ran this operation, declared a “code red” and handed responsibility to CO19 — the firearms team.

This armed team had been given photographs of alleged bombers, yet no one realised that Mr de Menezes bore no resemblance to them. The report states that the firearms unit had been told that “unusual tactics” might be required and if they “were deployed to intercept a subject and there was an opportunity to challenge, but if the subject was non-compliant, a critical shot may be taken”.

CCTV footage shows that Mr de Menezes was wearing a thin denim jacket that could not conceal a bomb, and he was not carrying a bag. Far from running from police, he did not realise that anyone was following him and even picked up a free newspaper before using his season ticket to pass through the barrier. He began to run only when he saw his train pull into the station. At the time of the shooting, Scotland Yard said that Mr de Menezes’s “clothing and his behaviour at the station added to their suspicions”. It was only when Mr de Menezes boarded the train that a surveillance officer guided four armed police into the same carriage.

A man sitting opposite him is quoted as saying: “Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small, black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me.

“He pointed the gun at the right hand side of the man’s head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man’s head when the first shot was fired.”

The report reveals that one of the surveillance team grabbed Mr de Menezes before he was shot. “I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side,” a statement says.

“I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting . . . I heard a gunshot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage.”

Last night Harriet Wistrich, lawyer for the dead man’s family, said that there were still “far more questions than answers” about police conduct. The family called for a full inquiry.

Rosangela Rebelo, a cousin who lives in the dead man’s home town of Gonzaga, said: “The family always believed his cousins, who lived with him in London, over the police version of events. I never believed he ran away. The family is still waiting for justice. They killed an innocent man.”

CONTRADICTIONS

Police de Menezes wearing suspicious clothing
Evidence to inquiry Wearing only thin denim jacket
Police Acting suspiciously on way to Stockwell station Evidence to inquiry Nothing odd in his behaviour
Police Challenged at station and refused to obey instructions
Evidence Challenged for first time while seated on train Police de Menezes vaulted ticket barrier to escape
Evidence Did not vault. Ran only to catch train
Police Eight shots fired into him
Evidence Eleven shots fired, three missed

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

You know, I was going to bold the article's key points, but pretty much all of it sums up the fuck-up.

[smeagol]

As I stated in all previous threads about this topic: Huge fuck up by the London police. Back then it looked and smelled like a fuck up, even though clan and others were trying by all possible means to justify it. Now its pretty clear it was a fuck up.

[Useruser666]

As I stated in all previous threads about this topic: Huge fuck up by the London police. Back then it looked and smelled like a fuck up, even though clan and others were trying by all possible means to justify it. Now its pretty clear it was a fuck up.

Well since these reports have come out it looks to be a fuck up. But from the initial reports, I would have just described it as an accident. With all the conflicting stories I'll wait for the final inverstigation.

[Clandestino]

secret documents? i'd like to see someone prosecuted for the leaks...

[smeagol]

Well since these reports have come out it looks to be a fuck up. But from the initial reports, I would have just described it as an accident. With all the conflicting stories I'll wait for the final inverstigation.
When the Police kills the wrong guy the way this Brazilian dude was killed, it's an accident which can be characterized as a fuck up.

And even with the info we had three weeks ago, to many of us it looked like a fuck up.

Clan, what's your take now?

[smeagol]

secret documents? i'd like to see someone prosecuted for the leaks...
:rolleyes

Sure, the leaks are the important thing in the whole situation.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Well since these reports have come out it looks to be a fuck up. But from the initial reports, I would have just described it as an accident. With all the conflicting stories I'll wait for the final inverstigation.

You know, Chris...you weren't one of the people claiming that de Menezes deserved to be shot since he was running (obviously, since Geraldo reported it), since he was wearing a long coat (since 70s is summer, 80s is pretty hot and 90s, they're dying) and that THEY wouldn't run if confronted with guns (especially since he was sitting on a train when he was first confronted).

But some people on this forum fought tooth and nail for this case. Now let's see them respond.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I wonder if the cop was using one of those toilets with the cleaning lady working for tips - she might be able to be a witness in this whole thing.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

secret documents? i'd like to see someone prosecuted for the leaks...

Cough-cough...Novak...cough-cough.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

secret documents? i'd like to see someone prosecuted for the leaks...

And there, my friends, is the finest logic to come from our own military-intelligencia.

[smeagol]

Clan is suspiciously absent from this thread.

Not to mention TRO, jochhejaam and others . . .

[ChumpDumper]

Stunning, if true.

[Clandestino]

but overall, i'd like to see what the final report says... in the meantime, the leakers need to be found out.. revealing secret documents is never good

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

the leakers need to be found out.. revealing secret documents is never good

That's the best you can come up with? Was your intelligence revoked when you were discharged?

[Clandestino]

That's the best you can come up with? Was your intelligence revoked when you were discharged?

i said i'd like to see the final report cocksucker...

[smeagol]

but overall, i'd like to see what the final report says... in the meantime, the leakers need to be found out.. revealing secret documents is never good
If the fuck up was this astronomical, it is definetly good that the docs were leaked. I can bet you, now that the docs are in the public domain, that the London police will review their proceedures carefully and will try hard not to fuck it up the next time.

Hey, maybe this leak helps save in the future an innocent guy's life (somebody you know, maybe?).

By the way Clan, how hard is it to say: "I was wrong"

[Clandestino]

i will wait to see what the final report says when it comes out... earlier reports said the cops told him to stop and he ran...

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

I have nothing further to add to this thread except that next time I see the LaChino I'm buying him a beer....errr Dr. Pepper.

[1369]

If this report is true, I guess this pretty much exonerates the officers who shot him. The guy who made the "positive identification" and communicated it to the response team needs to be shit canned.

[Clandestino]

so, then only one officer would be in the wrong.. the rest would be off scott free... following orders...

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

i said i'd like to see the final report cocksucker...

Oh, NOW you want to see final reports.

Back then, it was all...

"I wouldn't have run if confronted with a gun."

"I, in my travels across the world, would never wear a long coat in hot weather."

"This guy worked in London, he had to know what was being said to him."

"Fuck this asshole for running."

"How many run when confronted with multiple guns?"

"Trying to evade arrest...guilty...death was harsh, but you make your bed...lie in it." (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=402210&postcount=73)

dude shouldn't have ran... (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=404238&postcount=171)

I hope to God you're never late for something and have to run to get there.

Back then, it was all that...but only now should we wait for the final report?

Hypocrite.

[MannyIsGod]

If this report is true, I guess this pretty much exonerates the officers who shot him. The guy who made the "positive identification" and communicated it to the response team needs to be shit canned.
Actually, there are a lot of people who need to be shit canned. Starting with the people who didn't do their fucking homework on the building enough to know it was made up of 9 different apartments. This whole operation had a shitload of mistakes.

[1369]

how about the guy who shot the guy in the head at point-blank range?

What about him? He was acting on intelligence that the guy was one of the bombers. I would imagine that he thought they had the right guy.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah dude, no one in this forum takes that idiot seriously anymore. I honestly am amazed he is what makes up military intelligence though. Is it any wonder we have no idea where the fuck WMD are?

[MannyIsGod]

What about him? He was acting on intelligence that the guy was one of the bombers. I would imagine that he thought they had the right guy.
Yeah, I don't blame the acting officers for a bad policy and shity policework they had to fall back on.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Clan, I also hope you never make a mistake because you're taking a shit.

This guy DIED needlessly and all you can say is "buh, uh, we, uh, we should like, wait for, uh, wait for the, the, the final report."

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

A guy died because somebody had an extra crumpet and glass of tea and Clandestino's looking at TheWriter's pictures of San Antonio.

[Clandestino]

Oh, NOW you want to see final reports.

Back then, it was all...

"I wouldn't have run if confronted with a gun."

"I, in my travels across the world, would never wear a long coat in hot weather." (never said this)

"This guy worked in London, he had to know what was being said to him."

"Fuck this asshole for running."

"How many run when confronted with multiple guns?"

"Trying to evade arrest...guilty...death was harsh, but you make your bed...lie in it." (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=402210&postcount=73)

dude shouldn't have ran... (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=404238&postcount=171)

I hope to God you're never late for something and have to run to get there.

Back then, it was all that...but only now should we wait for the final report?

Hypocrite.

but yeah, the two reports conflict...so, we'll have to wait to see the final one... or you can just make assumptions on this so called leak report...

[Clandestino]

Yeah dude, no one in this forum takes that idiot seriously anymore. I honestly am amazed he is what makes up military intelligence though. Is it any wonder we have no idea where the fuck WMD are?

at least i've done something for my country.. what have you done except bitch, bitch, and more bitch...

[MannyIsGod]

Bitch, you have already made assumptions. And now that new information comes out showing how much of an ass your assumptions made you, you are backpedling as fast as your stupid legs will take you.

Not only am I smarter than you Clan, 90% of this forum is.

[MannyIsGod]

at least i've done something for my country.. what have you done except bitch, bitch, and more bitch...
:lol

Are you saying the only way to contribute to your country is through the military? And why don't you tell me what I've done, you're the one writing my biography. It is on the forum somewhere, right Clan? I mean, I post my life on here.

And I'm guessing that if you're as stupid as most people on here think, you did far more harm to this county than good.

[Clandestino]

Bitch, you have already made assumptions. And now that new information comes out showing how much of an ass your assumptions made you, you are backpedling as fast as your stupid legs will take you.

Not only am I smarter than you Clan, 90% of this forum is.


:lmao

we've gone over this before.. about how smart you think you are... and if you were smart, you... you know the rest... do something in your life for once, then talk..

[MannyIsGod]

Clan, for all you know, I could have the cure to cancer right here in my desk drawer.

[Clandestino]

:lol

Are you saying the only way to contribute to your country is through the military? And why don't you tell me what I've done, you're the one writing my biography. It is on the forum somewhere, right Clan? I mean, I post my life on here.

And I'm guessing that if you're as stupid as most people on here think, you did far more harm to this county than good.

no, there are many ways... and valeting manu's car then bitching about him not tipping you is not helping your country either..

[ChumpDumper]

Really strange if they physically held this guy just so they could pop him in the head eight times.

[MannyIsGod]

And btw, you still can't make this simple corolation. Me saying that I am smarter than you doesn't even mean that I am very intelligent. I could be incredibly stupid, and STILL be smarter than you.

[Clandestino]

Clan, for all you know, I could have the cure to cancer right here in my desk drawer.

no, because you'd be bragging about smart you are and that is why you call yourself manny is god! hahaha :rolleyes

[Clandestino]

And btw, you still can't make this simple corolation. Me saying that I am smarter than you doesn't even mean that I am very intelligent. I could be incredibly stupid, and STILL be smarter than you.
nah, you think you one of the smartest people around.. your sig says it... everyone else knows it...

[MannyIsGod]

no, there are many ways... and valeting manu's car then bitching about him not tipping you is not helping your country either..
Yes, but what about the rest of the things I've done Clan?

[MannyIsGod]

nah, you think you one of the smartest people around.. your sig says it... everyone else knows it...
My sig? My sig is a picture of a stamp with my face on it.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

It's like putting your hand on the short kid's forehead only to watch him flail away and hit nothing but air each time.

[MannyIsGod]

Let me save you the trouble dude.



mannys just henpecked.....all he does is bitch and ride a bike......he doesn't own a cool tahoe....henpecked manny...if he was so smart he would have developed cold fusion...henpecked manny can't cure cancer unless jess tells him how...

[Vashner]

It's funny how the Brits cry about our US Law Enforcement being "cowboy" and instead of giving them a Pistol like our guy have.. Pistol in a retention holster (This is very important for daily police work). They give out some MP5's.....

hahahah So we are "cowboy" but when the shit hit the fan they bust out a bigger gun?

Anyway try to bust up a punk rock keg party in London with mp5's .. keep both hands on the gun now.. (Sarcasm saying it's hard to do 2 handed police work with an assault rifle).

[clubalien]

thing is you don't kill terrorists you torture them until you have intelligence you can act on
as soon as I heard an unarmed person was killed I had a feeling it was a screw up

[Vashner]

If the officer thought he was about to detonate a bomb then he had a duty to take him out. It may of well been a screw up but the officer may be cleared if investigators / court thinks he really thought it was a threat.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

This proves that all the morons that were so sure this was a justified shooting don't know dick and should just SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[Clandestino]

oh, so, who cares what the final report says? you have heard enough?

[ChumpDumper]

If the officer thought he was about to detonate a bombWell, if the report is accurate there didn't seem to be any room to carry a bomb.

[Useruser666]

Everyone is spinning this to suit themselves. I thought it was justified when the news first came out. The details at THAT time made it seem very resonable. If what has been revealed in these leaks are true, then it is a screw up, and could have possibly been prevented. With emotions running high at the time, it is understandable how this event unfolded.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Everyone is spinning this to suit themselves. I thought it was justified when the news first came out. The details at THAT time made it seem very resonable. If what has been revealed in these leaks are true, then it is a screw up, and could have possibly been prevented. With emotions running high at the time, it is understandable how this event unfolded. I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. There is no fucking way shooting a man 7 times in the head without having clear cut evidence he's guilty constitutes justifiable action. To think it does is just idiotic. Basically what everyone here has been saying for a while now is, our rights and liberties are sacred UNLESS we feel paranoid and unsafe, then rights go out the window and welcome police state! Give me a fucking break!

Anyone who understands the importance of rights and proper procedure for that matter knew immediately that there had been a fuck up! You don't just shoot a man 7 times and then say "oops, we thought he had a bomb"!

[1369]

Anyone who understands the importance of rights and proper procedure for that matter knew immediately that there had been a fuck up! You don't just shoot a man 7 times and then say "oops, we thought he had a bomb"!

I disagree completely. How would the team who shot the man know their intelligence was wrong? If they had been told that he was indeed the bomber and was thought to be carrying a bomb belt or some other device and to take him out, how were they to know that he wasn't the right guy? The guys upstream who got it wrong from the beginning are the ones to blame, not the team on the ground.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

so, then only one officer would be in the wrong.. the rest would be off scott free... following orders...


and we all know how following orders is a justifiable excuse

[1369]

and we all know how following orders is a justifiable excuse

CBF, how was the team on the ground to know that the intelligence was wrong?

[Useruser666]

I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. There is no fucking way shooting a man 7 times in the head without having clear cut evidence he's guilty constitutes justifiable action. To think it does is just idiotic. Basically what everyone here has been saying for a while now is, our rights and liberties are sacred UNLESS we feel paranoid and unsafe, then rights go out the window and welcome police state! Give me a fucking break!

Anyone who understands the importance of rights and proper procedure for that matter knew immediately that there had been a fuck up! You don't just shoot a man 7 times and then say "oops, we thought he had a bomb"!

So what were the cops at the scene supposed to do? Were they not supposedly told that the man was a terrorist? Were they not told to fire upon him if he would run? You have NO idea what it's like to be in a situation like that. The guys who shot him didn't think he had a bomb, THEY WERE TOLD HE COULD HAVE ONE. THEY WERE TOLD TO RESPOND IN A CERTAIN WAY. They did, and it cost the man his life. Now maybe if they were trained not to follow orders to the tee, or use more of their own judgment in these kind of instances, things would have been different. But to them, the man seemed to follow what they had been told was terrorist behavior. This of course, may have been exaggerated by the pressure and heightened sense of alarm the cops were feeling after just having suffered through an attack. But did anyone suspect the first set of bombers until just before they detonated their bombs? No. Was this a tragic event? Yes.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

You know, I didn't find out about this through a post on SpursTalk. I found out about from a post a friend of mine in England made on another board.



Shortly after the recent bombings in London, it was announced that armed police had shot dead a man they suspected of being a member of the gang who carried out the attacks.

I, in my usual bullish way, applauded the swift decisiveness of the police action, even to the extent of continuing my support for their action after it became clear that a mistake had been made and that an innocent man had been shot dead. My reasoning was that the real responsibility for this mans unecessary death was his own fault for not complying to the officers orders

Until this morning.

because our police lied i now like many other british citizens look a propper asshole i can only be thankfull that somone else in the police had the integrity to leak the report so we could all know the truth


Take it for what it's worth...but he is from England and is closer to this than many of us.

[smeagol]

So what were the cops at the scene supposed to do? Were they not supposedly told that the man was a terrorist? Were they not told to fire upon him if he would run? You have NO idea what it's like to be in a situation like that. The guys who shot him didn't think he had a bomb, THEY WERE TOLD HE COULD HAVE ONE. THEY WERE TOLD TO RESPOND IN A CERTAIN WAY. They did, and it cost the man his life. Now maybe if they were trained not to follow orders to the tee, or use more of their own judgment in these kind of instances, things would have been different. But to them, the man seemed to follow what they had been told was terrorist behavior. This of course, may have been exaggerated by the pressure and heightened sense of alarm the cops were feeling after just having suffered through an attack. But did anyone suspect the first set of bombers until just before they detonated their bombs? No. Was this a tragic event? Yes.
User, nobody said it was just the guys on the ground's fault. The fuck up most certainly includes the inteligence people too. Actually, it's the intelligence people who take most of the blame in my book.

[smeagol]

I disagree completely. How would the team who shot the man know their intelligence was wrong? If they had been told that he was indeed the bomber and was thought to be carrying a bomb belt or some other device and to take him out, how were they to know that he wasn't the right guy? The guys upstream who got it wrong from the beginning are the ones to blame, not the team on the ground.
Agreed. But it is still a fuck up.

It's certainly not the Brazilian's fault for "running", like clan was saying three weeks ago.

[Useruser666]

Agreed. But it is still a fuck up.

It's certainly not the Brazilian's fault for "running", like clan was saying three weeks ago.

No, it's not his fault, but the circumstances of what happened that were released then seem to make it so. If indeed these new leaks are true, then the police will have to make changes to try and prevent this from happening again. What happened was most likely the end result of a series of unfortunate events that all together lead to the shooting of the man. Even if everyone did their job, the system as a whole failed that day. The proper procedures need to be in place so it can't happen again.

[smeagol]

No, it's not his fault, but the circumstances of what happened that were released then seem to make it so. If indeed these new leaks are true, then the police will have to make changes to try and prevent this from happening again. What happened was most likely the end result of a series of unfortunate events that all together lead to the shooting of the man. Even if everyone did their job, the system as a whole failed that day. The proper procedures need to be in place so it can't happen again.
Agreed 100%

[Clandestino]

Agreed. But it is still a fuck up.

It's certainly not the Brazilian's fault for "running", like clan was saying three weeks ago.

If the original reports are true, that he ran after the cops told him to stop, then i still say that 99% of the blame falls on him..

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No, it's not his fault, but the circumstances of what happened that were released then seem to make it so. If indeed these new leaks are true, then the police will have to make changes to try and prevent this from happening again. What happened was most likely the end result of a series of unfortunate events that all together lead to the shooting of the man. Even if everyone did their job, the system as a whole failed that day. The proper procedures need to be in place so it can't happen again.
Ok, we're on the same page

[MaNuMaNiAc]

If the original reports are true, that he ran after the cops told him to stop, then i still say that 99% of the blame falls on him..
no, he ran to get to the train you jackass, what's wrong with that???

[cecil collins]

Blame the innocent, good. That way you can deflect any fault upon your precious governments, and police units.

[Spurminator]

Even if he was running from the cops because he thought they had caught him for a previous armed robbery, you wouldn't usually see him taken down execution style. He's dead because of bad intelligence.

[Clandestino]

no, he ran to get to the train you jackass, what's wrong with that???

but IF cops told him to stop and he didn't it is his fault. the reports are conflicting now... that is the only reason we have to wait for the final one...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

but IF cops told him to stop and he didn't it is his fault. the reports are conflicting now... that is the only reason we have to wait for the final one...

The latest documents suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers, had started to run when he saw a train arriving and was sitting down in a train when he was shot.
you really think that is he had heard the police shouting at him, that he would have sat down?

[Clandestino]

old reports say that he didn't stop when cops told him to...

[Spurminator]

And if this were any normal situation where someone was resisting arrest, he would have been chased down and handcuffed.

Because of a FUCK UP, he was shot in the head.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

the reports are conflicting now... that is the only reason we have to wait for the final one...

I'm betting if you look hard enough, there are conflicting reports about why we're in Iraq, too.

Hypocrite.

[Clandestino]

no, bc they thought he was a terrorist...

oops, small mistake

[Spurminator]

And they were wrong. Fuck up.

[Clandestino]

I'm betting if you look hard enough, there are conflicting reports about why we're in Iraq, too.

Hypocrite.

reason enough for me for going into iraq is over 10 year of UN sanctions violations, firing at u.s. and british airplanes over those 10 years as well.

so, you think it is was okay for them to fire on us? you must be a baathist.

[Clandestino]

And they were wrong. Fuck up.

better to sacrifice one person... if they had been right and tried to put in place all the procedures and red tape you terrorist lovers want, then a terrorist may have entered the train and killed 100s..

[Extra Stout]

I don't know that I would call clan stupid as much I would just figure that deep down he prefers an authoritarian form of government and is just conflicted about it. That would explain why he works so hard to rationalize things like this. Deep down, he probably is willing to accept the occasional shooting of an innocent person if it removes barriers from the government's power to kill the bad guys.

Not that he's Einstein or anything, though.

[Spurminator]

better to sacrifice one person... if they had been right and tried to put in place all the procedures and red tape you terrorist lovers want, then a terrorist may have entered the train and killed 100s..

Oh for the love of God.

THEY WEREN'T RIGHT.

That's the point.

[Extra Stout]

better to sacrifice one person... if they had been right and tried to put in place all the procedures and red tape you terrorist lovers want, then a terrorist may have entered the train and killed 100s..Yep... clan came right and said what I figured he believes while I was writing that.

clan's just an authoritarian. That political philosophy has a long tradition this hemisphere among countries that aren't called "USA" or "Canada."

[Clandestino]

But You Can't Take The Chance!

[Clandestino]

Yep... clan came right and said what I figured he believes while I was writing that.

clan's just an authoritarian. That political philosophy has a long tradition this hemisphere among countries that aren't called "USA" or "Canada."

what is the latest 9/11 bullshit that has come out? a military intelligence group wanted the fbi to arrest one the 9/11 bombers a year before the incident. red tape wouldn't allow it.. hence 3,000 people are dead...

[Clandestino]

this london shooting was an accident... but i'll take the death of 1 person over 100s anyday...

[Extra Stout]

Oh for the love of God.

THEY WEREN'T RIGHT.

That's the point.

clan's point is that he'd rather the government have fewer barriers against its use of violent coercive power even if that means some innocent people die.

While this philosophy clearly goes against the entire basis of our system of government, it nevertheless is quite common in countries not influenced by the British system like ours is.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

reason enough for me for going into iraq is over 10 year of UN sanctions violations, firing at u.s. and british airplanes over those 10 years as well.

so, you think it is was okay for them to fire on us? you must be a baathist.

Simple-minded nonsense.

Listen, goober. My point is - if you're going to say "wait for the final report" now, say it all the time. If not, you're a hypocrite.

[Spurminator]

But You Can't Take The Chance!


Who can't take the chance? The victim?

I'm not arguing procedure, I'm arguing fault. It baffles me that you can claim this was the victim's fault.

[smeagol]

better to sacrifice one person...
Huh?

Sure, if that guy is some Brazilian dude . . . who cares if he dies in the name of security, right Clan?


if they had been right and tried to put in place all the procedures and red tape you terrorist lovers want, then a terrorist may have entered the train and killed 100s..

It’s mind-boggling how you go at such great lengths to justify this whole situation.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

better to sacrifice one person... if they had been right and tried to put in place all the procedures and red tape you terrorist lovers want, then a terrorist may have entered the train and killed 100s..
Terrorist lovers?? You sound like those racist mofo's back in the 1950's "niger lovers"!! you ignorant dumbass


this london shooting was an accident... but i'll take the death of 1 person over 100s anyday... yeah well, lets just hope the next person to be shot is someone who thinks exactly like you

[Spurminator]

clan's point is that he'd rather the government have fewer barriers against its use of violent coercive power even if that means some innocent people die.

What I'm disputing is the assertion that the victim was shot because he resisted arrest. That's wrong. He was shot because of bad intelligence.

I have no problem with the police procedure, given their intel. But now that the intel has proven to be wrong, somebody on the intel side needs to be held accountable.

[Clandestino]

Simple-minded nonsense.

Listen, goober. My point is - if you're going to say "wait for the final report" now, say it all the time. If not, you're a hypocrite.

Did it bother you that Iraq had been firing missiles at our aircraft for over 10 years? A simpled YES or NO will do.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Oh for the love of God.

THEY WEREN'T RIGHT.

That's the point.

What Clan fails to see, and it's not his fault, really. It's his perspective.

See, on a really shitty day at work for Clan, somebody slips on the stained floor which he couldn't get clean.

On a really shitty day at work for those British police, an innocent man died.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Did it bother you that Iraq had been firing missiles at our aircraft for over 10 years? A simpled YES or NO will do.

Yes.

Does it bother you that you're a hypocrite? A "simpled" YES or NO will do.

[Clandestino]

What Clan fails to see, and it's not his fault, really. It's his perspective.

See, on a really shitty day at work for Clan, somebody slips on the stained floor which he couldn't get clean.

On a really shitty day at work for those British police, an innocent man died.

:lmao you crazy fucker

[Clandestino]

Yes.

Does it bother you that you're a hypocrite? A "simpled" YES or NO will do.

No, I've been called worse by people closer to me! :lmao

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No, I've been called worse by people closer to me! :lmao
ofcourse you were

[cecil collins]

It's not just about one person. This could happen, and will happen many more times. 3000 isn't really all that many dead to turn the world upside down.

[Clandestino]

It's not just about one person. This could happen, and will happen many more times. 3000 isn't really all that many dead to turn the world upside down.

Pearl Harbor a little over 2000 dead.

[cecil collins]

Completely different set of circumstances.

[Clandestino]

Completely different set of circumstances.

you said 3,000 deaths wasn't a reason to turn the world upside down... ask the japoneses if their world was turned upside down...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

you said 3,000 deaths wasn't a reason to turn the world upside down... ask the japoneses if their world was turned upside down...
you really think the WHOLE US involvement in WW2 was entirely due to Pearl Harbor?? HAHAHA laughable

[Extra Stout]

you really think the WHOLE US involvement in WW2 was entirely due to Pearl Harbor?? HAHAHA laughablePearl Harbor didn't happen in a vacuum, but it certainly was the military attack on U.S. territory that started the war. The circumstances also garnered overwhelming popular support for the war, and young people climbed over one another to enlist.

The Japanese attacked Hawaii because the U.S. was threatening an oil embargo against Japan, and Japan figured their best bet was to catch the U.S. off guard with an attack and make them sue for peace quickly. They grossly underestimated the will of the American people to defend their homeland.

The U.S. was threatening an oil embargo against Japan because of Japan's insistence upon maintaing its aggressive expansionist foreign policy, i.e. conquering other countries along the Pacific Rim in order to colonize them. The U.S. negotiated with the Japanese for a long time before taking the step toward the oil embargo.

[Clandestino]

i never said the whole...

[1369]

Sure, if that guy is some Brazilian dude..

Smeagol, that statement got me to thinking, in all my travels in South America, what is with the intense hatred/rivalry between Argentina and Brazil? I've been in both places numerous times and seen/heard it in both countries.

[Extra Stout]

By the way, before anyone brings up Germany...

1)They declared war on us,

2)America's role in the European theater was smaller than its role in the Pacific theater,

3)The Soviet Union did the majority of the work to defeat Hitler and the nazis, but of course we couldn't say that during the Cold War for propaganda reasons.

My apologies for hijacking the thread... back to the original topic...

The death of 3,000 is significant, but not as much as the demonstration that terrorists can inflict major casualties and economic damage on American soil with relatively little investment.

It's the specter of millions of casualties that has us motivated. Once that event happens, our options are much more limited, and involve a lot more indiscriminate killing.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Smeagol, that statement got me to thinking, in all my travels in South America, what is with the intense hatred/rivalry between Argentina and Brazil? I've been in both places numerous times and seen/heard it in both countries.
There's an intense sports rivalry between our two countries, but I wouldn't say there's an intense hatred. Our relations as neighboring countries is very good. In fact, we depend on each other to very high extent, economically and politically. Those who hate Brazil because of a stupid sports rivalry are ignorant morons who don't understand the nature of a sports rivalry. Suffice to say, I don't believe they are the majority. However, I might just be overly optimistic.

[Extra Stout]

What I'm disputing is the assertion that the victim was shot because he resisted arrest. That's wrong. He was shot because of bad intelligence.

I have no problem with the police procedure, given their intel. But now that the intel has proven to be wrong, somebody on the intel side needs to be held accountable.And the authoritarian/proto-fascist response would be that disciplining police for the error might make them think twice before shooting a suspect the next time around.

You're coming from the republican perspective that individuals have rights, and when those rights are grossly violated by authorities that the authorities must be held accountable.

Clan's perspective is that the interests of the state are so much more important than the rights of the individual, in this case because the state must protect the population at large, that the death of the innocent individual is not very significant.

This is very much in the vein of thought of a Franco or a Mussolini in deciding these sort of trade-offs.

[1369]

I knew the sports rivalry existed, when I was in Cordoba last year it was around the time the (I think I have this right) Argentina national team lost to Brazil and from what I could gather, everyone in the country wanted to run the coach and players out of the country.

[Clandestino]

Clan's perspective is that the interests of the state are so much more important than the rights of the individual, in this case because the state must protect the population at large, that the death of the innocent individual is not very significant.

not the state admin, the general population... if someone can't be arrested bc we aren't 100% sure and then he kills a few hundred people.. that is bullshit..

also, when dealing with terrorists you can't just walk up to them and arrest them.. they could easily detonate their bomb in that time... israel has showed up what to do... yes, this was an unfortunate mistake, but i'm willing to lose 1 person over hundreds any day...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I knew the sports rivalry existed, when I was in Cordoba last year it was around the time the (I think I have this right) Argentina national team lost to Brazil and from what I could gather, everyone in the country wanted to run the coach and players out of the country.
Everyone is dissapointed with losing, especially to Brasil, our long time nemesis (sports wise). Which is ridiculous because Brasil is the best in the world in soccer and its understandable that losing to them is no shame. The rivalry in question prevents such a realization from most people. Although, I do think you're overreacting. The coach and the players did not get that much heat from that loss.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

not the state admin, the general population... if someone can't be arrested bc we aren't 100% sure and then he kills a few hundred people.. that is bullshit..

also, when dealing with terrorists you can't just walk up to them and arrest them.. they could easily detonate their bomb in that time... israel has showed up what to do... yes, this was an unfortunate mistake, but i'm willing to lose 1 person over hundreds any day...
Like I said before, lets hope the next person to be shot is someone who thinks exactly like you!

[smeagol]

Smeagol, that statement got me to thinking, in all my travels in South America, what is with the intense hatred/rivalry between Argentina and Brazil? I've been in both places numerous times and seen/heard it in both countries.
Actually my statement was not derogatory to Brazilians. I was just stating the fact that the guy that was killed in the London tube was from Brazil (and also implying that if the guy were American, I’m sure some of the posters who were quick to defend the London Police, i.e. Clan, TRO, Hook, would’ve proly been more careful with their initial comments).

The Argie / Brazilian rivalry has to do mostly with soccer, although it extends to other sports. I don’t think there is hatred, though. I personally find the Brazilians fun people. I have no problem whatsoever with them, except when they become cocky and rub in my face their five Soccer World Championships. :lol

This is exactly how I feel about Americans. I feel you guys are great until some of you become cocky and start looking down on the rest of the World.

[Vashner]

I think the Bobbies Long term resistance to US "cowboy" pistol toting is biting them in the ass.

They should talk to San Antonio Police.. they are EXPERTS in dealing with officer shootings and the aftermath..

Scotland Yard are Virgins when it comes to gun use by officers..
Heck they so stupid they sent UNARMED bobbies to a Al Queda "safe house" after 9/11 and wound up getting a father of 2 killed when they had racks of MP5 carbines sitting with dust on them.

[MannyIsGod]

I've been saying for the longest time that Clan embodies exactly what he supports fighting against in places such as Iraq.

But I digress, it becomes more and more apparent just how many people on this board recognize his idiocy with each passing day.