Where do Parker & Ginobili rank post-Jordan at their positions?

[mingus]

We all hear (and know) about how Duncan is the best PF ever. Lets look at TP & Manu though. Where do you have them post-Jordan at their respective positions?

I'm not looking at career accomplishments. Other players played on shitty teams and no doubt that inflated their stats (and kept them from winning 'chips on the flip side).

But from a skill/talent level, where do you have them?

[Gino-Step]

Manu is on the same level as Kobe post Jordan. Kobe had more pure athleticism and strength. Instincts and mind and vision and understanding the game, Manu was the best not just at his position but perhaps of all players post Jordan. The only player I can think of that thought the game like he did is Jeff Hornacek. No surprise that guy is killing it as a coach.

Parker is probably the 2nd best point guard after Jason Kidd in the post Jordan era. Jason Kidd you never needed to hide defensively against bigger players and length didn't bother Kidd on the offensive end.

Manu #2 after Kobe
Parker #2 after Kidd

People who believe that Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Chris Paul, James Harden, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson and these types of guys hold even a lick to Parker and Ginobili completely do not see basketball at the highest levels of detail.

[Emperor]

I actually have Parker third behind Jason Kidd and Steve Nash because of his two mvps and Manu as second behind Kobe. I've argued with many old school Bulls fans that Prime Manu would of been a handful if he had gone up against Jordan.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

Manu is on the same level as Kobe post Jordan. Kobe had more pure athleticism and strength. Instincts and mind and vision and understanding the game, Manu was the best not just at his position but perhaps of all players post Jordan. The only player I can think of that thought the game like he did is Jeff Hornacek. No surprise that guy is killing it as a coach.

Parker is probably the 2nd best point guard after Jason Kidd in the post Jordan era. Jason Kidd you never needed to hide defensively against bigger players and length didn't bother Kidd on the offensive end.

Manu #2 after Kobe
Parker #2 after Kidd

People who believe that Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Chris Paul, James Harden, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson and these types of guys hold[s] even a lick to Parker and Ginobili completely do not see basketball at the highest levels of detail.

:lmao

:rollin :rollin

:lmao

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Manu will never score 20 again


:lmao

:rollin :rollin

:lmao

[Diego20]

:lmao

:rollin :rollin

:lmao

Don't be that bad with the kid, he probably wants to kill himself everytime Manu scores 20 points..


:rollin:rollin

[Diego20]

Manu #3 behind Kobe and Wade.

Parker #4 behind Jason Kidd, Steve and CP.

[gnsf0946]

Some homer takes were expected but Manu better than Wade and Kobe and comparable to Jordan??

What kind of drugs do you have down in San Antonio?

[Diego20]

Some homer takes were expected but Manu better than Wade and Kobe and comparable to Jordan??

What kind of drugs do you have down in San Antonio?

Nobody said that..

[gnsf0946]

Nobody said that..


Prime Manu would of been a handful if he had gone up against Jordan.

[TheGreatYacht]

The stupidity in this thread :lmao :lol

[Diego20]

The stupidity in this thread :lmao :lol

You are stupid :lmao:rollin.

[Pocho La Pantera]

:lmao

:rollin :rollin

:lmaonostradamus.

[Brazil]

Manu #3 behind Kobe and Wade.

Parker #4 behind Jason Kidd, Steve and CP.

Pic put Parker 3 too tbh
cp3 is loaded with talent but dude is failing at highest stage.

[Pocho La Pantera]

Pic put Parker 3 too tbh
cp3 is loaded with talent but dude is failing at highest stage.+1

[Diego20]

Pic put Parker 3 too tbh
cp3 is loaded with talent but dude is failing at highest stage.

If TP averaged 2 more assists per game I would say he's better than CP. I really appreaciate assists when it comes to a PG.

[ontheraise]

If TP averaged 2 more assists per game I would say he's better than CP. I really appreaciate assists when it comes to a PG.

have you ever seen spurs game do you understand that in spurs system it doesn 't matter from who the assists is comming.... cause to get from good shot to great shot you need to move the ball a lot so the assist stat is irrelevant.
put cp3 in spurs roster 1st he wouldn't have blake griffin to throw alley oops to( ok now there is kawhi but for a long time there was nobody to throw an alley oop to), 2nd when he'll find splitter or diaw inside the paint or any other there would be a80% chance that those dude made an extra pass to find someone with a better look even standing 1 feet from the basket. so a lot to hurt cp3 assist stat you can add to that , that cp3 is playin 4 more min/game than parker on career time

[Diego20]

have you ever seen spurs game do you understand that in spurs system it doesn 't matter from who the assists is comming.... cause to get from good shot to great shot you need to move the ball a lot so the assist stat is irrelevant.
put cp3 in spurs roster 1st he wouldn't have blake griffin to throw alley oops to( ok now there is kawhi but for a long time there was nobody to throw an alley oop to), 2nd when he'll find splitter or diaw inside the paint or any other there would be a80% chance that those dude made an extra pass to find someone with a better look even standing 1 feet from the basket. so a lot to hurt cp3 assist stat you can add to that , that cp3 is playin 4 more min/game than parker on career time

What? I doubt TP would average more assists in another team than in Spurs.. the fuck?

[phxspurfan]

Manu is on the same level as Kobe post Jordan. Kobe had more pure athleticism and strength. Instincts and mind and vision and understanding the game, Manu was the best not just at his position but perhaps of all players post Jordan. The only player I can think of that thought the game like he did is Jeff Hornacek. No surprise that guy is killing it as a coach.

Parker is probably the 2nd best point guard after Jason Kidd in the post Jordan era. Jason Kidd you never needed to hide defensively against bigger players and length didn't bother Kidd on the offensive end.

Manu #2 after Kobe
Parker #2 after Kidd

People who believe that Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Chris Paul, James Harden, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade, Joe Johnson and these types of guys hold even a lick to Parker and Ginobili completely do not see basketball at the highest levels of detail.

Nash #1 after Kidd. CP3 also above Parker. Parker just has had better coaching, teams and the GOAT PF, as well as having Manu and countless backups to bail him out of big situations where the Spurs were about to be eliminated.

In fact, I'll go a step further and say Parker is the quintiscential (sp?) Spurs System product. Put Parker on the Clippers or Nets or Hornets or Cavs and he would blow donkey balls. Guys like Dion Waiters would be better than him on those teams, b/c there's no Pop to scheme up the perfect systems, hide him on defense, pull him when he's choking against the average athletic players he always chokes against, and finally no Duncan to drop the ball into when he's being doubled. Guys like CP3 just split the double and find a way.

[ontheraise]

so you think cp3 will average 10ass a game playin 30min in spurs system?

[DMC]

The problem with Chris Paul is that he's a star, and being a star means he makes his own decisions on the court. He's not smart enough to do that on the fly as we saw in that debacle in OKC this post season. Players like him and teams like that play hectic, chaotic basketball and rely on their individual talent to score and their athleticism and speed to defend because most of the time they are clueless at the offensive end and out of position on defense. If CP3 is to ever become a champion, he's going to have to play within a system that utilizes his strengths in a manner best suited for the people on the court with him at any given time, and I don't think Doc is smart enough to develop that kind of chemistry and team cohesion, and if he accidentally did he wouldn't know what to do with it. Chris randomly decides to shoot or to pass, or to drive or to kick, or to do nothing at all. It's almost never part of a plan that can be adjusted if it doesn't work. Because it's chaotic and in flux, Doc cannot make adjustments. How do you make adjustments to something you have no control over?

[ontheraise]

Nash #1 after Kidd. CP3 also above Parker. Parker just has had better coaching, teams and the GOAT PF, as well as having Manu and countless backups to bail him out of big situations where the Spurs were about to be eliminated.

In fact, I'll go a step further and say Parker is the quintiscential (sp?) Spurs System product. Put Parker on the Clippers or Nets or Hornets or Cavs and he would blow donkey balls. Guys like Dion Waiters would be better than him on those teams, b/c there's no Pop to scheme up the perfect systems, hide him on defense, pull him when he's choking against the average athletic players he always chokes against, and finally no Duncan to drop the ball into when he's being doubled. Guys like CP3 just split the double and find a way.

lol wait a min you're sayin dion waiter>>tony parker. well...... i think you said it all

[KL2]

05 finals Manu could've gone up against anybody, he was insanely good that year.

[mercos]

I'd take Parker as the second best PG after Jason Kidd post-Jordan. Nash was brilliant on offense, but his terrible defense knocks him down a few notches. Parker's only true competition is CP3. Paul has a great all around game, but I'll take Parker's ability to get to the rim over anything CP3 can do.

Manu is harder to place. Talent wise, I would rank him behind Kobe as the second best shooting guard in the league since Jordan. If Manu could stay healthy, and play as many minutes as the competition, I believe his numbers would be comparable to Kobe and Wade's. His run in 2010 when the Spurs barely made the playoffs as a 7th seed was spectacular, and showed what he was truly capable of. Unfortunately, Manu did not play a lot of minutes and could not stay healthy, so I can't put him ahead of Wade. Its still close though.

[Kabals]

In fact, I'll go a step further and say Parker is the quintiscential (sp?) Spurs System product.

What does the system give to Parker ?

What it doesn't:
Bigs to space the floor, and that really suck as Parker is one of the best finisher at the rim
Bigs that can jump, no alley oop option when he attacks the rim ...
Easy assist on jumpshot as Spurs don't take the inefficient jumpshot which is probably the most assisted shot and easiest assist to get

Having Duncan playing with you is cool but it doesn't give you anything on your stats sheet, you don't get assist after a post move. He might have never ringed but no way he would have been a scrub on another team.

And in this Spurs team I can't see any of Paul, Rondo or Rubio averaging more than 8 assists, not only they would have to share the ball with Manu, they wouldn't get their easy assist and wouid play 3-5 minutes less (Manu who is one of the best passer in the NBA never had 10+ assists 2 consecutive game IIRC, even when Parker was out, you simply can't stats padd assist with the Spurs).

[Brazil]

What? I doubt TP would average more assists in another team than in Spurs.. the fuck?

Its highly likely tbh

now if hockey assists would exist, here spurs are the perfect team for dat kind of stat for a pg

[skulls138]

Nash #1 after Kidd. CP3 also above Parker. Parker just has had better coaching, teams and the GOAT PF, as well as having Manu and countless backups to bail him out of big situations where the Spurs were about to be eliminated.

In fact, I'll go a step further and say Parker is the quintiscential (sp?) Spurs System product. Put Parker on the Clippers or Nets or Hornets or Cavs and he would blow donkey balls. Guys like Dion Waiters would be better than him on those teams, b/c there's no Pop to scheme up the perfect systems, hide him on defense, pull him when he's choking against the average athletic players he always chokes against, and finally no Duncan to drop the ball into when he's being doubled. Guys like CP3 just split the double and find a way.Nah, the "system" doesnt teach him those under the basket moves, nor the teardrop. Also maybe Parkers more coachable. I realize in this day and age that doesnt count for much but just looking at Westbrook makes coachability a valuable asset. Other reasons is that Parker made me realize that being pass happy, like Nash, isnt all its cracked up to be. Id rather have a pass happy team than a pass happy PG where everyone is just waiting around to be blessed with some brilliant pass. Its like Nash is the brilliant one and everyone else are his dunkers. Doesnt make for great team chemistry.

[letmk]

Pic put Parker 3 too tbh
cp3 is loaded with talent but dude is failing at highest stage.

I'm a Spurs homer. But I would say that CP3 could have the success with the Spurs and Tony would not be even close to reproduce what CP3 does in New Orleans and LAC.

[barbacoataco]

Ginobili is hard to rank because he is such a unique player. Parker is a great player and for some reason underrated and under-appreciated on this board. I just watched all 5 games from the finals last night and I was surprised at how well Parker played seeing it in hindsight. In game 4 he was the man in the crucial 1st half where they broke their will. Throughout the series he got big baskets and he was after all the leading scorer in the finals.

Parker has a good argument for best point guard since magic. And that is not homer, it is the truth. He played head to head against Kidd, Nash and CP3 in the playoffs and usually got the best of them. Steve Nash didn't play any defense. Jason Kidd had no jump shot. Chris Paul hasn't had success in the playoffs, and is also a weak defender. People forget now, but back in 2005-2007 Parker was a good defender. He wasn't a complete player in the beginning, but worked hard and became one. I predict Parker's reputation will grow in the future when they look back at his career in the future.

Also, this idea that he is only successful because of the system is ridiculous. Since the moment he came in the league he could get to the basket and finish. If anything he would have had more individual success on an average team because he would have got more shot attempts, therefore ppg, and the average fan thinks someone who scores 21 ppg is better than someone scores 19. Spurs fans should appreciate Parker.

[letmk]

I'm a Spurs homer. But I would say that CP3 could have the success with the Spurs and Tony would not be even close to reproduce what CP3 does in New Orleans and LAC.

That CP3 is overrated is when people try to compare him to players like LeBron and Durant. But he's definitely been the #1 PG for a few years now.

[TheyCallMePro]

Parker - Best PG

Ginobili - Best SG

[therealtruth]

Manu on a per minute basis was as good as or better than Kobe, however he never played as many minutes as Kobe. TP is also underrated with his ability to score inside for PG.

[barbacoataco]

That CP3 is overrated is when people try to compare him to players like LeBron and Durant. But he's definitely been the #1 PG for a few years now.

Why? He's got great numbers, but in the playoffs when it matters against stiff competition, he hardly looks like "definitely" the best point guard. Did you watch him in the rockets-blazers series? He plays zero defense. Winning matters.

[Manudona]

I do not understand why anyone would pick Wade over Many, the guy is much younger but already looks terrible and if it weren't for the love affair with the whistle probably wouldn't have a fmvp either

[cd021]

If TP averaged 2 more assists per game I would say he's better than CP. I really appreaciate assists when it comes to a PG.

Interesting note: Ric Bucher questioned several seasons ago whether Pauls assists were inflated at home in New Orleans because of the odd level of disparity on the road.

There of course, is usually a bit of disparity but assists, more any stat, is up for debate. twice in his last 3 seasons with N.O his road assists were at least 1.5 lower than at home

10-11 season
Home-10.7
Road-8.8
---------------
-1.9

09-10
Home-11.0
Road-10.3
--------------
-.07

08-09
Home-11.8
Road-10.3
---------------1.5Paul is a great play maker but found that interesting. Parker did have season, 3 years ago, where he averaged 1.5 assists fewer on the road.

Always wandered how much Manu's presence suppressed Parkers assists. Parker does have a tendency at time to ignore players (or it could be his court vision isn't quite as good as Pauls is) looking at some Green and Leonard highlights and he completely missed them open for 3's.

[skulls138]

I'm a Spurs homer. But I would say that CP3 could have the success with the Spurs and Tony would not be even close to reproduce what CP3 does in New Orleans and LAC.I believe the Spurs are better with Parker than they would be with CP3. The reason is that Parker fits the Spurs better. CP3's passing ability would just negate the teams passing game which would just stagnate the offense. Parker brings a pure scorers mentality that bales the Spurs out if the shot clock is running low and hes also a one man fast break.

[emanueldavidginobili]

It's crazy how much better 32 year old manu was compared to 32 year old Wade. 32 year old Manu was a beast!! I must admit though prime Wade was something else

[Mel_13]

It's crazy how much better 32 year old manu was compared to 32 year old Wade. 32 year old Manu was a beast!! I must admit though prime Wade was something else

It's even crazier that 36 year old Manu was so much better than 32 year old Wade. Too bad 36 year old Manu was also so much better than 35 year old Manu.

[Brazil]

I'm a Spurs homer. But I would say that CP3 could have the success with the Spurs and Tony would not be even close to reproduce what CP3 does in New Orleans and LAC.

Im pretty sure TP would do just fine in LAC. Like it or not TP never deferred to Pargo. Cp3 has some bobo DNA sometimes, he is a so much better player when he is in attack mode.

[Mel_13]

Im pretty sure TP would do just fine in LAC. Like it or not TP never deferred to Pargo. Cp3 has some bobo DNA sometimes, he is a so much better player when he is in attack mode.

Paul can't get a pass for never getting out of the second round. These recent Clipper teams have had as much talent as Dwill's 2007 Jazz.

[Old School 44]

Parker's the number 1 point guard. In recent time, what point guard from a winning championship team has been a primary part of the team? The Heat, Mavs, Lakers...no, no and NO!

Manu number 1 shooting guard. Just as fiery, passionate about the game as Kobe. Slightly less talented, but if I had to choose in their prime, I'd choose Manu everytime. Why? For no other reason than I think he's a much better teammate. Kobe would throw you under the bus, get in it, and drive right over you, then put it in reverse just to make sure.

[apalisoc_9]

Manu is the third best SG Post Jordan..

Tony is the third best PG post jordan..

[superbigtime]

When are Spurs fans, and the rest of the sporting world, going to recognize Parker's greatness? I agree with Barbacoa, he is best PG since Magic. He is more of a complete player than any of the usual suspects. His style of play is just amazing to watch, I always have faith in Tony. Rondo is my other favorite but he has a long way to go to achieve greatness.

Manu's always had health concerns. I've got him behind Kobe and Wade, but I like him a helluva lot more than those jerks.

[Mikeanaro]

I do not understand why anyone would pick Wade over Many, the guy is much younger but already looks terrible and if it weren't for the love affair with the whistle probably wouldn't have a fmvp either
Lots of haters wanna forget the whistle affair and his lack of court vision bad 3 point shooting and donkey fugly face, dude is already done at 32 only a drunk would say he is better.
Manu over Kobe to me, easy Manu is more efficient per minute without the ballhogging and makes everyone on his team look better, when the hell Kobe did that? and WADE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Manu doesnt have a big ego and if he were playing for the Lakers instead SA media will be making him the best thing ever, they elevate Pau who was a barely decent player so imagine what they could do with Manu.

[SpurSwag]

Manu #3 behind Kobe and Wade.

Parker #4 behind Jason Kidd, Steve and CP.

Exactly this, though I could understand iverson being ahead of Manu too if the conversation is about skill and talent.

[Mikeanaro]

Parker's the number 1 point guard. In recent time, what point guard from a winning championship team has been a primary part of the team? The Heat, Mavs, Lakers...no, no and NO!

Manu number 1 shooting guard. Just as fiery, passionate about the game as Kobe. Slightly less talented, but if I had to choose in their prime, I'd choose Manu everytime. Why? For no other reason than I think he's a much better teammate. Kobe would throw you under the bus, get in it, and drive right over you, then put it in reverse just to make sure.
It seems because they play for a winning team they dont deserve the #1 and yet nobody has a legit reason to make the other candidates better.
I see Manu being great playing for other teams, and Tony on other teams could be a kind of scoring champion without Duncan&Manu.
Padding stats can be so confusing for some people.

[ontheraise]

i just have one question who among cp3-jason kidd- steve nash had ever own tp on their matchup. the only pg to knew parker's number was marbury when playing for suns, parker always had issues against him. all others pg have been rape by parker on a regular basis.

[Old School 44]

It seems because they play for a winning team they dont deserve the #1 and yet nobody has a legit reason to make the other candidates better.
I see Manu being great playing for other teams, and Tony on other teams could be a kind of scoring champion without Duncan&Manu.
Padding stats can be so confusing for some people.
I love Pop and TD, but Tony and Manu get the short end of the stick sometimes regarding their individual stock because of them and "the system".

With this Championship, a lot of the Spurs' harshest critics are finally recognizing the sustained brillance and dynasty that are the Spurs. It's time they recognize the individual brillance of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, as well as their place together in basketball history, as one of the best point guard/two guard combos to ever play the game.

[smaka]

so you think cp3 will average 10ass a game playin 30min in spurs system?

[Emperor]

Some homer takes were expected but Manu better than Wade and Kobe and comparable to Jordan??

What kind of drugs do you have down in San Antonio?

Never said he was comparable to Jordan. Manu in his prime obviously was more than capable of taking over games and against the best of defenses, ('05 Pistons) Jordan had to go up against the likes of Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter, Dan Majerle, Shawn Kemp, Byron Russell in the finals. Prime Manu had abit more huevos and nastiness to his game than these guys even though Kemp is one of my alltime favorite players. Dude was all over the place at times. Would definitely cause problems for Jordan but lucky for him he has Pippen

[Genjuro]

To me Nash is clearly the top PG in the post-Jordan era. As debatable as they were, those two MVP awards put him in a completely different level. Kidd got to the finals twice while being the centerpiece of a team, but coming out of a horrible Eastern Conference. I don't think they would've made it out of the first round in the West those two years. Actually, Nash's Suns would've blown them out of the water, IMO. Indeed he managed to lead them to 54 victories (more than Kidd ever won leading the Nets) with a starting five completed by Bell, Marion, Diaw and Kurt Thomas / James Jones.

[Ginobili3]

They are both #3 at their respective positions post-Jordan. 3- TP, 2- Nash, 1- J. Kidd. 3- Manu, 2- D-Wade, 1- Kobe. Does anyone think either crack the top 10 point guard/shooting guard lists of all-time? I think Manu & Tony are at best #9 or #10, but I def. think both are top 15 ever for their positions. Thoughts?

[Manudona]

To me Nash is clearly the top PG in the post-Jordan era. As debatable as they were, those two MVP awards put him in a completely different level. Kidd got to the finals twice while being the centerpiece of a team, but coming out of a horrible Eastern Conference. I don't think they would've made it out of the first round in the West those two years. Actually, Nash's Suns would've blown them out of the water, IMO. Indeed he managed to lead them to 54 victories (more than Kidd ever won leading the Nets) with a starting five completed by Bell, Marion, Diaw and Kurt Thomas / James Jones.

+1

[DAF86]

People still falling for Gino-Step's shtick. :lol

[Malik Hairston]

1. Nash
2. Paul(durability and style of play is a concern, otherwise he would be #1)
3. Kidd(one of the most overrated players of my lifetime, though)
4. Parker


1. Kobe
2. Wade(although his quick decline may affect his legacy, depending how you value peak vs. longevity)
3. Ginobili
4. Carter

[barbacoataco]

Nash played no defense and his team never had success in the playoffs.

[barbacoataco]

You have to look at both sides of the court because if takes both to win.

[Genjuro]

Nash played no defense and his team never had success in the playoffs.

Nash made it three times to the Western Conference Finals. That's significantly more success than advancing to the finals after beating a 50-wins' Detroit in the pre-Sheed era and a 49-wins' Boston in the freaking Antoine Walker era.

This is not competing against a clock. There are opponents involved.

And his defense (or lack thereof) was good enough to make the Suns a contender, a tougher contender than the Nets ever were.

[Malik Hairston]

Nash's defense isn't a major problem at the PG position, tbh..

Most teams use their wing players to defend great PGs nowadays, and opposing teams rarely have 3 perimeter players that can create their own shot to expose the mismatch on the switch, tbh..

Parker's inability to shoot 3s and Kidd's inability to score for himself at a high level are bigger flaws than Nash's defense IMO..

[Brazil]

Parker's inability to shoot 3s and Kidd's inability to score for himself at a high level are bigger flaws than Nash's defense IMO..

I couldn't disagree more with that statement

[TheGreatYacht]

Nash's defense isn't a major problem at the PG position, tbh..


Dude this is a PG league :lmao

[Malik Hairston]

Dude this is a PG league :lmao

No, it isn't:lol..

PG is the easiest position to shut down(unless you're a 6'9 Magic Johnson), as we have seen throughout history..

That doesn't really affect my statement, though..most of the time, a SG or SF will guard the PG, when it's necessary..

[barbacoataco]

When the Suns played the Spurs they had to put Marion or someone else on Parker because Nash couldn't handle him. That created mismatches in other places. You can 't say it doesn't 't matter if a PG can't play defense. If they had won a championship, or gotten close , it might be different. Nash was overrated, should never have won a MVP. He had great numbers because of their pace and style. That style didn't win.

[barbacoataco]

I guess Chauncey Billups isn't even in the discussion, even though he is the guy with the Finals MVP. But I guess defense "doesn't matter" at the PG position. Or rather it doesn't matter in fantasy basketball, it only matters in winning real championships.

[Malik Hairston]

Nash won plenty, and he was an Amare-Diaw suspension away from potentially winning a title:lol..

Marion guarded Parker for the same reasons Sefolosha did in 2012, and Lebron did in 2013 and 2014..an athletic wing player can shut down a PG, while the opposing PG generally can't do it..

[letmk]

When the Suns played the Spurs they had to put Marion or someone else on Parker because Nash couldn't handle him. That created mismatches in other places. You can 't say it doesn't 't matter if a PG can't play defense. If they had won a championship, or gotten close , it might be different. Nash was overrated, should never have won a MVP. He had great numbers because of their pace and style. That style didn't win.

The Spurs used Bowen on Nash a lot, or whenever it was critical. So do lots of other teams on lots of other elite PGs, like Thompson on CP3, Green on CP3.

[barbacoataco]

You all are missing my point that players blew by Nash and he was a defensive liability. I can 't say that a guy who was way below average at half the game can be the best at his position in 25 years.

[mingus]

i just have one question who among cp3-jason kidd- steve nash had ever own tp on their matchup. the only pg to knew parker's number was marbury when playing for suns, parker always had issues against him. all others pg have been rape by parker on a regular basis.

Yeah, but that's why the the thread is based on skill & talent. Who guarded CP3, Nash and Kidd. It wasn't Parker most of the time. We either had Bowen, Leonard or Green on those guys. Let's not act like that doesn't matter.

[barbacoataco]

Parker defended Nash quite a bit.

[mingus]

Yeah, until he was getting torched and Pop put Bowen on him. Maybe my memory serves me wrong, though. I remember Bowen being most of the reason the Spurs held Nash somewhat in check. Plus, Tony had Timmy one of the GOAT defenders as second line of defense.

I think Nash is significantly better than Parker. You put Nash on the Spurs and I think the Spurs have 7-8 titles.

[barbacoataco]

I believe in terms of skill and talent Parker is ahead of Nash, Kidd and CP3. He is a more complete player and has no major flaws. His ability to get to the basket is the best of all 4. He has a consistent mid range jumper. He just shot over. 40% 3 pt on finals. He has become a good passer. He doesn't 't have the assist numbers the other 3 had , but the Spurs offense makes more passes and spreads the ball around. CP3 is mentally weak and melts down sometimes. Also he is below average defensive player. Parker has a good argument.

[mingus]

I believe in terms of skill and talent Parker is ahead of Nash, Kidd and CP3. He is a more complete player and has no major flaws. His ability to get to the basket is the best of all 4. He has a consistent mid range jumper. He just shot over. 40% 3 pt on finals. He has become a good passer. He doesn't 't have the assist numbers the other 3 had , but the Spurs offense makes more passes and spreads the ball around. CP3 is mentally weak and melts down sometimes. Also he is below average defensive player. Parker has a good argument. I'm with you on CP3. I think Parker is better than him. But IMO Nash > Parker at scoring (Nash couldn't finish at the rim like Parker, but he makes up for it with his shooting) and passing (obviously). Defensively, Nash was very average, but since most of the time both guys are guarding the other team's worst wing player (e.g. Nash guarding Bowen), I don't believe it's as much of a factor.

[TheGreatYacht]

No, it isn't:lol..

PG is the easiest position to shut down(unless you're a 6'9 Magic Johnson), as we have seen throughout history..

That doesn't really affect my statement, though..most of the time, a SG or SF will guard the PG, when it's necessary..
True true. Not every team has both a good PG and a SG, you could've always hid Nash on one of them... I still don't think Nash deserved that 2nd MVP though IMO

[SequSpur]

Check the fucking scoreboard.

You earn your name during the season. You earn your fame in the playoffs.

Parker dumbfucks. Fuck Chris Paul, Steve Nash and Jason Kidd.

[emanueldavidginobili]

There's no way Parker is better than prime Nash dude won back to back MVPs, he was brilliant, I'd also take prime Kidd over Parker

[barbacoataco]

Winning regular season MVP is a popularity contest. Even when he won them there were people saying he didn't deserve it.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Manu is clearly the third best SG after Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade in the post-Jordan era. He has just been better than the likes of McGrady, Carter, Pierce (when he played SG), Johnson etc.

TP has on the other hand had much more difficult competition in the PG department. Kidd, Nash, Paul, Rose, Westbrook, Miller & Rondo round out his competition. And I think he can be around fourth-fifth among them.

[MB20]

Manu 4th best SG, behind Kobe, Iverson and Wade.

Tony 2nd behind Kidd

[Genjuro]

You guys have convinced me: the best PG in the post-Jordan era is Derek Fisher.

[Strategic]

If I were picking the best point guard it would be LJ. If I were picking the best shooting guard it would be LJ. His ability to play both sides of the ball at both positions has been proven. Go ahead and argue that he's a forward all you want. I agree with most of the board that Manu and Tony are both very near to top, though I only see one mention of Billups.

[EVAY]

These comparisons are very difficult and probably useless ultimately because the Spurs players are in a system unique to themselves.

In Parker's case, his assists have been held down for several reasons over his career:

In the early years, the only job of the pg was to bring the ball up the court and give it to Tim, who would then dribble the ball continually in the low post until all the
Spurs players had cleared to the other side of the court where they would stand waiting for Tim to shoot.

In the post-Dominant Duncan years, the 'system' has replaced the low-post focus so that a motion offense is initiated leading to multiple passes from any player, and
the 'hockey assist' being the more typical play for any Spur. Even during the 'system' years, the Spurs offense has essentially been initiated by the first pass in the
possession going from Parker to Duncan, who then begins the offense based on what he sees.

In the case of Manu, when he got here Pop tried to put him in the Spurs' system and he refused to go, because he was already successful in other places doing things 'his way'. Unlike Parker and (less so) Duncan, Manu arrived as a fully developed talent, and with a skill set far superior to most shooting guards in the NBA. His years in the starting line-up were always difficult because the offense was really not set up for three shooters, and because the original (and occasionally only)
play in most of the offensive sets was a two-way game with Duncan and Parker. Those were also the days when we had a pathetic bench. So, putting Manu on the bench to lead the second unit gave them the best ball handler on the team, and a guy who could (and did) create plays for himself and for others.

Parker (other than his speed) is 1000% a product of Pop's development. Duncan, whose initial talent and skill level were far superior to those of most rookies, was still developed under Pop.

Manu arrived and has continued as a complete package. The challenge for Pop with Manu was trying figure out how to use those monstrous talents and skills within a game plan that maximized their usefulness (and still kept Duncan as a major focus of the team).

Each of the Spurs' big three has had to sacrifice individual stats to the betterment of the team's success. That is why the comparisons between our guards and others during the post Jordan era are useless, imo.

[Tim_5rings]

Manu #3 behind Kobe and Wade.

Parker #4 behind Jason Kidd, Steve and CP.


:tu for me it's fair

Manu is a in my opinion top 3 talent of the decade (all positions include)_He is 120% in excellence but also 120% in mediocrity
He has a unorthodox game and 100% of cases attempt a pass who is either 50% assist of the year or 50% pass intercepted while his teammates wouldn't try that pass, he shoot in first-intent
for me he is the real HERO-Baller (not pejorative in my mind) but he can take the rebound, take the steal or made the shoot / dunk that will change the momentum and lifted the crowd
Pop said himself:

"I went from trading him on the spot to wanting to cook him breakfast tomorrow. That's the truth."

He's uncontrollable, plays without follow the system, and follow his instinct sometimes & when the shots (or other things) are made it's great, when they doesn't it's awful

But I am never judge a player about % FG it's the most alternative thing of the game
sometimes shoot just doesn't go in(His Airness himself or Kobe has that kind of game sometimes & even in Finals). And it's the same cases for every player of the league TP or Danny .....

Parker was far from having the qualities of a true PG when he arrived in the league
Since 2008/2009 he is one of them (and they're rarely)
He is still the most underapprecated player of all the league(maybe the entire world if I exaggerate)
One reason is that it is completely atypical PG
He's not a scoring first, he mades less than 20 ppg. Curry, Westbrook, Irving are close to 25 ppg
He's not a passing first he doesn't give 9/10 apg. like CP3 or Rondo did
He attacks the rim but can't dunk as dROSE or Westbrook, He doesn't shoot 3s
But all league PG's say that he's the most difficult one to defend
How is this possible?
He's a great mix between basketball FIBA & NBA,he's coach's player
but also a system PG (uncommon one) who doesn't have a shoot in first part of his career and has developed a mid-distance shoot (10-20 feet) as a new weapon later, his court vision is also better
His decision making is better year after year. Here he's criticized because his ego but you know many greats who doesn't have ego

If he improves over 30 years old it's precisely because the ego and self-confidence he has
For him only the sky is the limit(metaphore), and he has a huge stomach and will always hunger for victories

He has ego but he's not egoistic. If he was he will be never friends with babac,Timmy and Manu
& Be trade long time ago
I think he deserves to retired in Spurs uniform too

[hitmantb]

When it comes to all time great's only three things matter, MVP, FMVP and rings.

Nash is clearly ahead of Parker. Two MVP's and his playing style would eventually be adopted by Pop and turn into the Spurs tiki-taka game of today. He was also cheated out of a ring in 2007 vs Spurs with Tim Donaghy in game 3 and Robert Horry hip check in game 4.

I can not rank Kidd and Paul ahead of Parker because they simply never won any individual awards or rings. 4 rings and FMVP pushes Parker over both IMO. While Parker doesn't produce huge stats he is on a far more balanced team and he is the heart of the Spurs offense of last 3 successful seasons. He also attract the opponent's best defenders (LeBron) and drains their stamina and free up everyone else.

So Magic > Nash > Parker > anyone else for me in the history of PG's. You can say Parker's success is right place, right time, but you can say that about most other hall of famer's as well. I have to take 4 rings + 1 FMVP over . . . nothing's.

Manu is the hardest to rate. He has 4 rings but because of his off the bench sacrifice, he has zero individual awards. He is the greatest six man to ever play the game and when he was the leader of a team, he led Argentina over two dream team's in 2002 and 2004, including the first ever defeat of a full NBA squad. I can not rate him ahead of Jordan/Kobe/Wade/AI as I don't think his style of play and body can carry a team through 82 games and post season as the primary option. But against anyone else? He compares favorably IMO.

[kaji157]

When it comes to all time great's only three things matter, MVP, FMVP and rings.

Nash is clearly ahead of Parker. Two MVP's and his playing style would eventually be adopted by Pop and turn into the Spurs tiki-taka game of today. He was also cheated out of a ring in 2007 vs Spurs with Tim Donaghy in game 3 and Robert Horry hip check in game 4.

I can not rank Kidd and Paul ahead of Parker because they simply never won any individual awards or rings. 4 rings and FMVP pushes Parker over both IMO. While Parker doesn't produce huge stats he is on a far more balanced team and he is the heart of the Spurs offense of last 3 successful seasons. He also attract the opponent's best defenders (LeBron) and drains their stamina and free up everyone else.

So Magic > Nash > Parker > anyone else for me in the history of PG's. You can say Parker's success is right place, right time, but you can say that about most other hall of famer's as well. I have to take 4 rings + 1 FMVP over . . . nothing's.

Manu is the hardest to rate. He has 4 rings but because of his off the bench sacrifice, he has zero individual awards. He is the greatest six man to ever play the game and when he was the leader of a team, he led Argentina over two dream team's in 2002 and 2004, including the first ever defeat of a full NBA squad. I can not rate him ahead of Jordan/Kobe/Wade/AI as I don't think his style of play and body can carry a team through 82 games and post season as the primary option. But against anyone else? He compares favorably IMO.
I agree with you with Parker but not Ginobili, you go out and say that Ginobili cannot take the toll on his body blah blah... while is clearlly that Wade and Iverson couldn´t either, Ginobili has kept his game and improved in some areas while both Iverson and Wade rapiddly regressed. For me Ginobili at his peak is comparable to Wade and Ginobili´s peak was longer as wade had a serious injury the next year after the championship.
Iverson is on another level and i´d rank him ahead of wade both in terms of capacity to lead a team and durability but then again... no rings.
So for me is Kobe, Manu, Wade, Iverson.. and i´d really put Iverson as a PG some times in his career.

To recap, you cannot put up Manu being "not durable" when the guy is playing at 37 at a very high level. And then go and say that Wade (Would be destroyed by 32 y/o Manu and is playing the same minutes as Manu at 32) and Iverson (his level also dropped significantly at 32 y/o and he played only 6 years in the PO).
Also, total games played:

Iverson 914 RS 71 PO 985 Total games played (Started playing at 21 retired at 34) 14 seasons 70.35 games per season.

International Competition: 2003 FIBA Americas 10 games, 2004 Olympics 8 games. Total international games 18. (1,28 int. games per year)

Wade 719 RS 152 PO 861 Total games played (Started playing at 22 is 32 and still playing) 11 seasons 78,27 games per season.

International Competition: 2004 Olympics 8 games, 2006 FIBA WC 9 games, 2009 Olympics 8 games. Total international games 25. (2,27 int. games per year)

Ginobili 795 RS 180 PO 975 Total games played (Started playing at 25 still playing at 36) 12 seasons 81,25 games per season.


International Competition (only the competitions he endured during his NBA career): 2003 FIBA Americas 10 games, 2004 Olympics 8 games, 2006 FIBA WC 9 games, 2008 Olympics 8 games, 2011 FIBA Americas 10 games, 2012 Olympics 8 games. Total international games (NBA-Years) 53. (4.4 int games per year).

[Drom John]

Jordan retired in 2003.
For combined seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the regular season; from 2003-04 to 2013-14; played G; sorted by descending Win Shares.

1) Chris Paul
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chauncey Billups
5) Steve Nash
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Jason Terry

[Diego20]

Manu 4th best SG, behind Kobe, Iverson and Wade.

Tony 2nd behind Kidd

I don't count Iverson because he didn't play high lvl since 2008-2009, and he stopped playing the NBA at 34 years old to play in Europe

[romain.star]

Nash #1 after Kidd. CP3 also above Parker. Parker just has had better coaching, teams and the GOAT PF, as well as having Manu and countless backups to bail him out of big situations where the Spurs were about to be eliminated.

In fact, I'll go a step further and say Parker is the quintiscential (sp?) Spurs System product. Put Parker on the Clippers or Nets or Hornets or Cavs and he would blow donkey balls. Guys like Dion Waiters would be better than him on those teams, b/c there's no Pop to scheme up the perfect systems, hide him on defense, pull him when he's choking against the average athletic players he always chokes against, and finally no Duncan to drop the ball into when he's being doubled. Guys like CP3 just split the double and find a way.

FWIW, Parker led France to International success w/o Pop, TD, Manu

[phxspurfan]

FWIW, Parker led France to International success w/o Pop, TD, Manu


True, but Parker is a very skilled and confident player now. I doubt he would have been this skilled, confident and successful had he joined any franchise other than the one with Pop and Duncan.

[barbacoataco]

Don't make me go postal saying "Nash was cheated out of a championship in 2007. That series was a 4-2 Spurs win. And the Spurs beat the Suns year after year in the playoffs. Why are we supposed to believe 2007 wax any different? If the Suns really were better than Spurs they woul have won that series. Do you think the Heat would have beat the Spurs this part year if Duncan and Parker were suspended for 1 game? Of course not. The better team wins in a 7 game series.

[ontheraise]

True, but Parker is a very skilled and confident player now. I doubt he would have been this skilled, confident and successful had he joined any franchise other than the one with Pop and Duncan.

when speaking of skills and confidence and success you tend to forget how young parker was when he joined the spurs (19) was already playin pro bball in france at 17, already won the young euro championchip and was designated mvp of the tournament,not to forget that after 5 games with the spurs he became the youngest starting 5 pg in nba history.
you are right it's pretty obvious the kid had no skills and no confidence.

[Genjuro]

Don't make me go postal saying "Nash was cheated out of a championship in 2007. That series was a 4-2 Spurs win. And the Spurs beat the Suns year after year in the playoffs. Why are we supposed to believe 2007 wax any different? If the Suns really were better than Spurs they woul have won that series. Do you think the Heat would have beat the Spurs this part year if Duncan and Parker were suspended for 1 game? Of course not. The better team wins in a 7 game series.

Oh, come on, Nash bleeding in the first decided what was a completely open game. The Suns couldn't make a single FG while him on the bench (five misses in the last minute). That was in Phoenix. The fifth game, for which Diaw and Stoudamire got suspended, was also in Phoenix, and they entered it with a home-court advantage.

They were very competitive during the series. This has anything to do with this year's finals.

I'm not saying the Spurs wouldn't have won, but there's a clear uncertainty there. Not to take anything from the Spurs, because almost every single champion enjoys some breaks. But to think that always the best team wins no matter what is a bit naive IMO.

Of course, the Suns were much more competitive than any other playoff team not named the Spurs that year.

[vanvannen]

Parker is unbelievably underrated even in this forum. He has gone up against the likes of JKidd, CP3, Nash, Westbrook, DWilliams and hardly ever (although eventually) has been outplayed on BOTH ENDS of the floor by any of them. Forget the stats, just think of the actual match up and you will see how well has Parker played over the years, not to mention the many times he has come up big for this team, like the fantastic defense on Rip Hamilton to prevent a last-second loss, the MANY clutch shots he has made to prevent runs from the other team, with going 7-8 on the 4th with the Heat being the latter.

[phxspurfan]

when speaking of skills and confidence and success you tend to forget how young parker was when he joined the spurs (19) was already playin pro bball in france at 17, already won the young euro championchip and was designated mvp of the tournament,not to forget that after 5 games with the spurs he became the youngest starting 5 pg in nba history.
you are right it's pretty obvious the kid had no skills and no confidence.

ontheraise
Join Date 03-26-2012

I don't tend to forget anything, Mr. Snarky Spurs Fan Since 2012. I was watching all the Spurs game back then. We had shit PGs, and Pop trusted Parker enough to let him play, since we had the corpse of Terry Porter and his backup Antonio Daniels "I start fights at Homecourt America" as the other options that year.

[ontheraise]

ontheraise
Join Date 03-26-2012

I don't tend to forget anything, Mr. Snarky Spurs Fan Since 2012. I was watching all the Spurs game back then. We had shit PGs, and Pop trusted Parker enough to let him play, since we had the corpse of Terry Porter and his backup Antonio Daniels "I start fights at Homecourt America" as the other options that year.

so i became a spurs fan the day I sign-in spurstalk LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL for your info i watch the spurs for nearly 15years considering i'm 28 and not us citizen i can say proudly take all your little consideration for my fandom and shove it up your ass the hardest way possible... you're welcom :)

[phxspurfan]

so i became a spurs fan the day I sign-in spurstalk LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL for your info i watch the spurs for nearly 15years considering i'm 28 and not us citizen i can say proudly take all your little consideration for my fandom and shove it up your ass the hardest way possible... you're welcom :)

lol and a classy NASF at that