LJC and Bertans

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Diaw, Mills, and Baynes are most likely coming back. Add in Anderson. Pop has all the ammo he needs to fire off capable starting, bench, and mad scientist squads. As it should be. It's a championship team and not much change is necessary for a solid run at the ultimate prize. So the roster is basically full, but...

starters
Duncan
Diaw
Leonard
Green
Parker

bench
Splitter/Baynes
Anderson/Ayers
Manu
Mills/Beli
Cojo

Now i'd argue for an obvious Ayers trade and Daye guarantee, but that's hypothetical. What's real, is that bench aint missing much.

Why not just bring in Bertans and LJC already? Are they seriously not nba ready enough to go through SL and preseason for evaluation and experience? Would they face serious minutes outside of (knocks on wood) Manu injury, Anderson jitters? Should they even be facing serious minutes, domestic or abroad, with those knees? Do they not have more upside than Bonner and whatever "stall/filler" project fits behind Manu? Is it wise to leave them in Europe for "development" while the championship team in the best league, with the best coach, best trio of veteran leaders, best record of developing domestic "stall/filler" projects (Green, Neal, Mills, Baynes) competes for a championship that could spell the end of that "development rich" era? Hell, how well has draft and stash (Manu, Splitter, Scola, Decolo, bunch of mispronounced and un-recalled names) actually even worked?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

LJC says they are expecting him to be on the roster by 15-16'.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

LJC says they are expecting him to be on the roster by 15-16'.

that's the outrage i'm ranting about.

[KL2]

LJC did tear his ACL, he was out for some time which has affected his development.


I'm not really a fan of Bertans, just way too skinny, might as well stick with Daye, not enough size to guard most SF's.

[Prime Time]

LJC did tear his ACL, he was out for some time which has affected his development.


I'm not really a fan of Bertans, just way too skinny, might as well stick with Daye, not enough size to guard most SF's.
The difference between Bertans and Daye is that Bertans is much more versatile shooter. By that I mean he can shoot off screens, off the dribble, pull-up in transitions, and on spot-ups. Think of him as a 6'10" Kyle Korver.

Austin Daye is primarily just a spot-up shooter

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Jesus Christ dude, sometimes players just aren't ready. When things like ACL tears come up, the team wants to keep them in Europe to see how they respond and if they're still worth it. I'm sure the Spurs know if a player is ready to come over.

[4down]

The difference between Bertans and Daye is that Bertans is much more versatile shooter. By that I mean he can shoot off screens, off the dribble, pull-up in transitions, and on spot-ups. Think of him as a 6'10" Kyle Korver.

Austin Daye is primarily just a spot-up shooter

Daye is a fairly skilled passer as well and not bad handling the ball for his size. His lack of physicality hurts him on D but he is a similar 'slow mo' style player albeit without guard level skills to KA. I believe he can be effective in most situations for 12 -15 min a game

very true that Bertans appears to be much better moving without the ball and shooting off screens. keep them both if possible

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Jesus Christ dude, sometimes players just aren't ready. When things like ACL tears come up, the team wants to keep them in Europe to see how they respond and if they're still worth it. I'm sure the Spurs know if a player is ready to come over.

i think that's playing it too safe. the guys have nba talent, analysts put them on the radar. the players themselves have faith in their games, that's why they declared eligibility. "scared man can't gamble." the spurs gotta take a chance on these guys. draft and stash got his acl torn in the first place. And he wasn't alone. I think the spurs should grow a pair when it comes to these draft and stashers.

[Taking it to the Hole]

i think that's playing it too safe. the guys have nba talent, analysts put them on the radar. the players themselves have faith in their games, that's why they declared eligibility. "scared man can't gamble." the spurs gotta take a chance on these guys. draft and stash got his acl torn in the first place. And he wasn't alone. I think the spurs should grow a pair when it comes to these draft and stashers.

The Spurs may not always have the financial flexibility much less the need for specific players until they have identified a need or weakness that needs to be upgraded through these players. Just because you are drafted, it does not mean that the Spurs are going to have use for you in their current plans. They draft players with the knowledge that they have "options" but these draft and stash players may never play a minute in a Spurs uniform. Look at what happened with Scola. Spurs drafted him but he didn't see a minute with the Spurs and he was an NBA caliber prospect. Just circumstances dictate which players you are going to roll with. Right now the Spurs don't see any reason to "rock the boat".

[FireMicoHalili]

Diaw, Mills, and Baynes are most likely coming back. Add in Anderson. Pop has all the ammo he needs to fire off capable starting, bench, and mad scientist squads. As it should be. It's a championship team and not much change is necessary for a solid run at the ultimate prize. So the roster is basically full, but...

starters
Duncan
Diaw
Leonard
Green
Parker

bench
Splitter/Baynes
Anderson/Ayers
Manu
Mills/Beli
Cojo

Now i'd argue for an obvious Ayers trade and Daye guarantee, but that's hypothetical. What's real, is that bench aint missing much.

Why not just bring in Bertans and LJC already? Are they seriously not nba ready enough to go through SL and preseason for evaluation and experience? Would they face serious minutes outside of (knocks on wood) Manu injury, Anderson jitters? Should they even be facing serious minutes, domestic or abroad, with those knees? Do they not have more upside than Bonner and whatever "stall/filler" project fits behind Manu? Is it wise to leave them in Europe for "development" while the championship team in the best league, with the best coach, best trio of veteran leaders, best record of developing domestic "stall/filler" projects (Green, Neal, Mills, Baynes) competes for a championship that could spell the end of that "development rich" era? Hell, how well has draft and stash (Manu, Splitter, Scola, Decolo, bunch of mispronounced and un-recalled names) actually even worked?
Wow have you not been reading, Tony already said Jean-Charles will be staying in Europe until next year. Easy for people to push for an Ayres trade though Pop always almost never trades players he's familiar with. You can always push for Daye, but he's wire thin compared to Bonner. He'll get absolutely crushed on the defensive end if he were to be a stretch four. Easy for you to say he can bulk up, but it hasn't happened this summer at all.

[FireMicoHalili]

The difference between Bertans and Daye is that Bertans is much more versatile shooter. By that I mean he can shoot off screens, off the dribble, pull-up in transitions, and on spot-ups. Think of him as a 6'10" Kyle Korver.

Austin Daye is primarily just a spot-up shooter
Haven't even seen Bertans play at an NBA level. Looks like he'll get crushed by athletic small forwards or bowling ball shooting guards.

[cjw]

Let the guys develop in Europe instead of in Austin. Keeps them under the team's control at very cheap costs for much longer too.

[venitian navigator]

I think that's time to spend the MLE. The number of good players for a team like us, that needs most of his stars to rest, expecially during the rs, is never too high. The point is who's the best player available on the market at that price that can fit our style. Last year we spent it for Marco and Ayres, today we could have the luxury to spend it all on just one player...without going in the lux-tax territory.

[TheyCallMePro]

I agree OP. I think it's BS that we leave these players over in Europe to 'develop'. What were really waiting for is roster spots to come open--and some should be open now, so we should bring them over.

The only thing that happens when these guys play in Europe is they get hurt (Bertans and LJC both tore their ACL's in the past year) and they play against inferior competition, which is doing everything BUT prepare them for the NBA.

Bring em over. Bring em over now.

[spurraider21]

Meh, it appears as though they'd rather keep Daye around than bring somebody over

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Wow have you not been reading, Tony already said Jean-Charles will be staying in Europe until next year. Easy for people to push for an Ayres trade though Pop always almost never trades players he's familiar with. You can always push for Daye, but he's wire thin compared to Bonner. He'll get absolutely crushed on the defensive end if he were to be a stretch four. Easy for you to say he can bulk up, but it hasn't happened this summer at all.

I have been reading, are you? I'm not saying he is coming. I'm saying he should be, along with Bertans. I'm rallying against draft and stash. And i think i made clear why.

"Will get crushed" and "just aren't ready" are popsuckin gibberish. I get it. The spurs get a lot right. They're champions, and they have some success with draft and stash. But i think there should be a stronger anti-draft and stash sentiment by now. We've seen Decolo fizzle out and so many injuries. Why are we ok with promising young talent abroad while we debate the value of keeping Daye vs re-signing Bonner, or having a spot open so we can sign 10 day contract guys?

If they don't want to come over it's one thing to wait them out. Leaving them over though, willfully against their wishes to play in the NBA. That's seems more like stunting growth than nurturing it.

[Prime Time]

Haven't even seen Bertans play at an NBA level. Looks like he'll get crushed by athletic small forwards or bowling ball shooting guards.
What's your indication of that? I'm not saying Bertans will thrive in the NBA, but there's nothing that says he couldn't be serviceable other than a couple of amateur scouting reports.

But either way, Bertans is still a much more talented shooter than Daye is. Daye couldn't even make an off-screen jumper in the freaking D-League, the most impressive shots he made were a couple of post-plays and drives that he could never pull off in the NBA.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

I agree OP. I think it's BS that we leave these players over in Europe to 'develop'. What were really waiting for is roster spots to come open--and some should be open now, so we should bring them over.

The only thing that happens when these guys play in Europe is they get hurt (Bertans and LJC both tore their ACL's in the past year) and they play against inferior competition, which is doing everything BUT prepare them for the NBA.

Bring em over. Bring em over now.

Thanks, Pro!

[FireMicoHalili]

What's your indication of that? I'm not saying Bertans will thrive in the NBA, but there's nothing that says he couldn't be serviceable other than a couple of amateur scouting reports.

But either way, Bertans is still a much more talented shooter than Daye is. Daye couldn't even make an off-screen jumper in the freaking D-League, the most impressive shots he made were a couple of post-plays and drives that he could never pull off in the NBA.
Same way you argue Bertans seems like Korver. Did you base that off amateur scouting reports too?

[Prime Time]

Same way you argue Bertans seems like Korver. Did you base that off amateur scouting reports too?
Define amateur. If sites such as DraftExpress or Draft.Net qualify as amateur, then sure. But there's a fine line between comparing a play-style and flat out predicting how a player's career will turn out.

[BackHome]

Bertans is so much better then Daye I see no reason to keep Daye over Bertans none at all.

As far as LVJ I can understand he just had major knee surgery so I would wait for him to heal up and have a year of getting better. Also he plays for Parkers team so I know they won't jack around with his injury and also will coach him up.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Either way, the argument proves my point. The spurs need to bring him over and play him!

[FireMicoHalili]

I have been reading, are you? I'm not saying he is coming. I'm saying he should be, along with Bertans. I'm rallying against draft and stash. And i think i made clear why.


"Will get crushed" and "just aren't ready" are popsuckin gibberish. I get it. The spurs get a lot right. They're champions, and they have some success with draft and stash. But i think there should be a stronger anti-draft and stash sentiment by now. We've seen Decolo fizzle out and so many injuries. Why are we ok with promising young talent abroad while we debate the value of keeping Daye vs re-signing Bonner, or having a spot open so we can sign 10 day contract guys?


If they don't want to come over it's one thing to wait them out. Leaving them over though, willfully against their wishes to play in the NBA. That's seems more like stunting growth than nurturing it.
Because draft and stash players actually get to play in Europe. Bring them here and let them fill out a roster spot...just to play five minutes a night? To say they get injured while citing Bertans and Jean-Charles is anecdotal evidence. That's simply taking a small sample size to bolster your argument. How about Adam Hanga or DeShaun Thomas? Robertas Javtokas or Sergei Karaulov? The Thunder have good draft and stash players in Tbor Pleiss and Alex Abrines and both have been doing fairly well.


I'm not sure I can say this for Daye but definitely for Bonner: his experience is valuable. It takes a year or two to get acclimated to Pop's system, and the window is closing for Duncan and company. It would be wiser to keep veterans who keep the wheels running than bring in someone with little to no knowledge of the system.


Regarding your argument on their knees, the Spurs brought both forwards over last summer to have them evaluated. If they can't play abroad, what makes you think their knees are in good enough shape to withstand the rigor of an 82-game NBA schedule? By average, a second round pick yields value only 24 percent of the time; it would be absurd to expect tremendous value from players like Bertans.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Either way, the argument proves my point. The spurs need to bring him over and play him!
Prime Time and Firemicohalili

[FireMicoHalili]

Define amateur. If sites such as DraftExpress or Draft.Net qualify as amateur, then sure. But there's a fine line between comparing a play-style and flat out predicting how a player's career will turn out.
DX says best case is Mike Dunleavy, worst case is Steve Novak. To think he'd end up as Korver/Dunleavy is having tunnel vision; that would be ignoring his propensity to become a Novak, which isn't half bad, but terrible defensively.

To quote DX, since you're so keen on citing them: "Part of this will come with added strength, as he has a very narrow frame that makes it difficult for him to play through contact at the moment. This makes sense considering that he grew almost eight inches (20 centimeters) over the last two years, according to what he told us, so he's obviously still growing into his new dimensions. It will be important for him to continue to refine his shot-creating ability so he doesn't get labeled as a one dimensional prospect down the road"

NBADraft.net: Foot speed is below average by NBA standards ... Needs to add weight ... Only weighs 211 pounds, which makes him quite thin for either forward position... Doesn't stand out as a rebounder or defender.

Guess who NBaDraft.net compared Bertans to? Kyle Korver AND Austin Daye. Yikes.

[Prime Time]

DX says best case is Mike Dunleavy, worst case is Steve Novak. To think he'd end up as Korver/Dunleavy is having tunnel vision; that would be ignoring his propensity to become a Novak, which isn't half bad, but terrible defensively.

To quote DX, since you're so keen on citing them: "Part of this will come with added strength, as he has a very narrow frame that makes it difficult for him to play through contact at the moment. This makes sense considering that he grew almost eight inches (20 centimeters) over the last two years, according to what he told us, so he's obviously still growing into his new dimensions. It will be important for him to continue to refine his shot-creating ability so he doesn't get labeled as a one dimensional prospect down the road"

NBADraft.net: Foot speed is below average by NBA standards ... Needs to add weight ... Only weighs 211 pounds, which makes him quite thin for either forward position... Doesn't stand out as a rebounder or defender.

Guess who NBaDraft.net compared Bertans to? Kyle Korver AND Austin Daye. Yikes.

1- Dunleavy and Korver have damn well the same play-style. Bertans could be compared to either one (not saying he'll reach the same level of success)

2- The report you're taking from was written more than 3 years ago. While I agree with the comparisons they make (because I've actually seen a couple of Bertans games), I don't find it fair to quote the actual scouting reports from then when in 2011, Bertans was more of a limited shooter IIRC.. like that of Austin Daye or Steve Novak. He's improved a lot since.

All I'm saying is that Bertans has more potential than Daye, I never claimed he was going to stick around.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Because draft and stash players actually get to play in Europe. Bring them here and let them fill out a roster spot...just to play five minutes a night? To say they get injured while citing Bertans and Jean-Charles is anecdotal evidence. That's simply taking a small sample size to bolster your argument. How about Adam Hanga or DeShaun Thomas? Robertas Javtokas or Sergei Karaulov? The Rhunder have good draft and stash players in Tbor Pleiss and Alex Abrines and both have been doing fairly well.


I'm not sure I can say this for Daye but definitely for Bonner: his experience is valuable. It takes a year or two to get acclimated to Pop's system, and the window is closing for Duncan and company. It would be wiser to keep veterans who keep the wheels running than bring in someone with little to no knowledge of the system.


Regarding your argument on their knees, the Spurs brought both forwards over last summer to have them evaluated. If they can't play abroad, what makes you think their knees are in good enough shape to withstand the rigor of an 82-game NBA schedule? By average, a second round pick yields value only 24 percent of the time; it would be absurd to expect tremendous value from players like Bertans.

If i didn't use this small sample size, my argument would lose focus. Because i've only been a forum following fan for a few years. Details like when Splitter was drafted and when Blair was drafted. How many McDyess, Kurt Thomas style projects came betweeen. And why Splitter was left over for so long. I don't know. But i know this, it's impossible to know how much different Splitter would have turned out. Had he just been thrown to the wolves, i'd bet he woulda turned out pretty similar. And i woulda taken my chances forking over some buyout cash or getting out-muscled over McDyess, Thomas, and Blair knee'n it all those years.

Also, playing just a few minutes is a plus. Familiarity with the system and the big 4. Extra run during injuries or d league time. I'll take that development over banging knees and bodies in some foreign country. And as a fan, i want to see the players the spurs draft. I don't want to see if dad gum Damion James/Shannon Brown types can pan out because they have experience. Hell in hindsight or foresight, how much good do those types do?

[FireMicoHalili]

If i didn't use this small sample size, my argument would lose focus. Because i've only been a forum following fan for a few years. Details like when Splitter was drafted and when Blair was drafted. How many McDyess, Kurt Thomas style projects came betweeen. And why Splitter was left over for so long. I don't know. But i know this, it's impossible to know how much different Splitter would have turned out. Had he just been thrown to the wolves, i'd bet he woulda turned out pretty similar. And i woulda taken my chances forking over some buyout cash or getting out-muscled over McDyess, Thomas, and Blair knee'n it all those years.

Also, playing just a few minutes is a plus. Familiarity with the system and the big 4. Extra run during injuries or d league time. I'll take that development over banging knees and bodies in some foreign country. And as a fan, i want to see the players the spurs draft. I don't want to see if dad gum Damion James/Shannon Brown types can pan out because they have experience. Hell in hindsight or foresight, how much good do those types do?
Exactly why your argument is specious - your small sample size. You can't bolster your position by citing biased samples. You mentioned Splitter, who's also been another success from the draft and stash system. Considerations such as buyouts, level of competition come into play as well. If you're going to argue how different Splitter might have turned out, I could argue how different Ginobili might have turned out if he were brought in here right away.

Familiarity with the system is a different thing from playing with the Big 4. These kids are slated to play post-Duncan era, where Leonard and Parker are supposed to lead them into the fray. Those 'types' of players (Damion James, Shannon Brown) never actually play, and it would be a waste to see kids like Bertans and Jean-Charles suffer the same fate. Farming players in the D-League eats up roster space and is actually limiting for contenders, so until the system gets fixed, stashing players overseas is optimal for players' development. Stuffing teams with younger players also stagnates their talent. Look at the Blazers. Victor Claver, Sergei Monya, Viktor Khryapa...foreign talent all gone to waste because they sat at the end of the bench.

Regarding roster space, the Spurs are up to 11, barring the signings of Diaw, Mills, Baynes, and Bonner, so I don't know what roster space anyone is talking about here. Daye isn't expected to leave, as per recent reports from Marc Spears and Jeff McDonald. Eleven, presumably including Anderson's rookie scale contract. None of the Spurs' draft and stash players would replace cogs like Diaw and Mills right away, unless of course you're content seeing LJC play point forward while Denmon takes Mills' spot, to bolster your thesis of a"development rich" environment.

[FireMicoHalili]

1- Dunleavy and Korver have damn well the same play-style. Bertans could be compared to either one (not saying he'll reach the same level of success)

2- The report you're taking from was written more than 3 years ago. While I agree with the comparisons they make (because I've actually seen a couple of Bertans games), I don't find it fair to quote the actual scouting reports from then when in 2011, Bertans was more of a limited shooter IIRC.. like that of Austin Daye or Steve Novak. He's improved a lot since.

All I'm saying is that Bertans has more potential than Daye, I never claimed he was going to stick around.
Son I'm quoting the sites you cited. That's all they had. You just contradicted yourself by downplaying the reports of your so-called "sources". As of late, Bertans still weighs 210 lbs, just as much as Daye weighs. Played only four games for Partizan averaging 12 points and four rebounds a game in 22 minutes per contest. If he can't dominate in Europe, what makes you think he'll do a solid job in the NBA?

[Prime Time]

Son I'm quoting the sites you cited. That's all they had. You just contradicted yourself by downplaying the reports of your so-called "sources". As of late, Bertans still weighs 210 lbs, just as much as Daye weighs. Played only four games for Partizan averaging 12 points and four rebounds a game in 22 minutes per contest. If he can't dominate in Europe, what makes you think he'll do a solid job in the NBA?
I'm only using the comparison because they're the only thing that's still valid after a good, I don't know, 3 years? If this was 2011 or even 2012 I'd say you have some ground. And don't kid yourself with the "that's all they had", they were basing it off of one game. One game 3 years ago. You're cherry picking to a max.

.. Those are actually very solid numbers for a 21 year old who only plays 22 minutes. Bogdan Bogdanovic, on the same team, averaged 14.8 points | 3.7 rebounds on 40% shooting in 31 minutes a game. Is he also a shit prospect who will never make it to the NBA?

[FireMicoHalili]

I'm only using the comparison because they're the only thing that's still valid after a good, I don't know, 3 years? If this was 2011 or even 2012 I'd say you have some ground. And don't kid yourself with the "that's all they had", they were basing it off of one game. One game 3 years ago. You're cherry picking to a max.

.. Those are actually very solid numbers for a 21 year old who only plays 22 minutes. Bogdan Bogdanovic, on the same team, averaged 14.8 points | 3.7 rebounds on 40% shooting in 31 minutes a game. Is he also a shit prospect who will never make it to the NBA?
Really? Comparisons are the only valid thing? Whatever happened to Bargnani being compared to Dirk? These comparisons are a hit-miss. I wasn't cherry-picking; you said these weren't amateur draft sites. That's what they had, unless you can scrounge around for better sources. Are you saying all the reports from DX and NBADraft.net were all based off one game? So if they worked with one game, the comparisons might have been based off one game too. Yikes.

Never said Bertans or Bogdanovic were shit prospects. Never said Bertans won't make it to the NBA, my position was that he comes over later. As for Bogdanovic, he isn't headed to the NBA for a year or two. They're stashing him because he isn't ready. He's got skills which could use some seasoning overseas. Isn't that the point of contention here?

Comparisons for 2011's draft class:

Kyrie Irving: Mike Conley/Chris Paul
Derrick Williams: David West/Michael Beasley
Enes Kanter: Al Horford
Tristan Thompson: Charles Smith
Jonas Valanciunas: Spencer Hawes/Primoz Brezec
.
.
.
Kawhi Leonard: Gerald Wallace/Luc Richard Mbah A Moute

Reliable for three years? That's manipulating a parameter to suit your argument. Why three years? Why not four or five? Why not make it 10 while you're at it?

[cd021]

Don't see Ayers getting traded straight up. Maybe an unprotected 2nd pick in 2016 (post big 3) or maybe the Spurs cut ties Bonner and go after 1 FA on the M.L.E

[tholdren]

NBADraft.net: Foot speed is below average by NBA standards ... Needs to add weight ... Only weighs 211 pounds, which makes him quite thin for either forward position... Doesn't stand out as a rebounder or defender.

Guess who NBaDraft.net compared Bertans to? Kyle Korver AND Austin Daye. Yikes.[/QUOTE]

Kyle Anderson

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Exactly why your argument is specious - your small sample size. You can't bolster your position by citing biased samples. You mentioned Splitter, who's also been another success from the draft and stash system. Considerations such as buyouts, level of competition come into play as well. If you're going to argue how different Splitter might have turned out, I could argue how different Ginobili might have turned out if he were brought in here right away.

Familiarity with the system is a different thing from playing with the Big 4. These kids are slated to play post-Duncan era, where Leonard and Parker are supposed to lead them into the fray. Those 'types' of players (Damion James, Shannon Brown) never actually play, and it would be a waste to see kids like Bertans and Jean-Charles suffer the same fate. Farming players in the D-League eats up roster space and is actually limiting for contenders, so until the system gets fixed, stashing players overseas is optimal for players' development. Stuffing teams with younger players also stagnates their talent. Look at the Blazers. Victor Claver, Sergei Monya, Viktor Khryapa...foreign talent all gone to waste because they sat at the end of the bench.

Regarding roster space, the Spurs are up to 11, barring the signings of Diaw, Mills, Baynes, and Bonner, so I don't know what roster space anyone is talking about here. Daye isn't expected to leave, as per recent reports from Marc Spears and Jeff McDonald. Eleven, presumably including Anderson's rookie scale contract. None of the Spurs' draft and stash players would replace cogs like Diaw and Mills right away, unless of course you're content seeing LJC play point forward while Denmon takes Mills' spot, to bolster your thesis of a"development rich" environment.

Buddy, LJC and Bertans aren't biased examples. They're relevant.

You say you could argue that Manu would be worse if the spurs had just brought him over? I say think about that. Manu is good because Manu is good. Benching him in a superior league vs playing him in an inferior one, it doesn't matter. He's gonna shine, because Manu shines. Same with Splitter, and contrarily or not, Anybody... but that's irrelevant.

We're talking about the same thing. At least, when it comes to players to play with Tony and Kawhi in the post-Duncan era. Developmental talent and do actual minutes abroad have value. I say sure, if a guy wants to play for his national team or finish out his contract. But not for any other reason. If Bertans and LJC are good, then bring them in and let them prove their way into minutes or back the hell where they came from. All the abroad minutes has done is mess up their knees.

F Bonner and Ayers, why pay somebody elses draft busts when you can just draft? F the Blazers and Thunder, this is the spurs bench. F the cap and the rights, these guys are rookie scale paid and you get 2 every year. F the chicken shit "guys aren't ready" mentality. These guys are draft eligible and the spots for them are at the bottom of the bench. Worse case scenario, you trade them so you cash in on some stupid gm who pays somebody elses draft busts. Mahinmi, btw.

[Prime Time]

Really? Comparisons are the only valid thing? Whatever happened to Bargnani being compared to Dirk? These comparisons are a hit-miss. I wasn't cherry-picking; you said these weren't amateur draft sites. That's what they had, unless you can scrounge around for better sources. Are you saying all the reports from DX and NBADraft.net were all based off one game? So if they worked with one game, the comparisons might have been based off one game too. Yikes.

Never said Bertans or Bogdanovic were shit prospects. Never said Bertans won't make it to the NBA, my position was that he comes over later. As for Bogdanovic, he isn't headed to the NBA for a year or two. They're stashing him because he isn't ready. He's got skills which could use some seasoning overseas. Isn't that the point of contention here?

Comparisons for 2011's draft class:

Kyrie Irving: Mike Conley/Chris Paul
Derrick Williams: David West/Michael Beasley
Enes Kanter: Al Horford
Tristan Thompson: Charles Smith
Jonas Valanciunas: Spencer Hawes/Primoz Brezec
.
.
.
Kawhi Leonard: Gerald Wallace/Luc Richard Mbah A Moute

Reliable for three years? That's manipulating a parameter to suit your argument. Why three years? Why not four or five? Why not make it 10 while you're at it?

Alright, a couple of things

1- Comparisons are a hit or miss. We agree on that, but they're always a best-case/worst-case scenario. Bertans in 2011 was not comparable to Korver or Dunleavy in terms of moving without the ball/shooting off screens (which has really been his biggest improvement), Bertans in 2011 was more of an Austin Daye/Steve Novak type of player. But since he had a quick release and good body control, scouts predicted he could end up a player that of the Korver/Duleavy mold.

Now, in 2014, Bertans is much better and more Korver-esque than he was in 2011.

(Also, Bargnani does play like Dirk. Dirk is just a lot fucking better at it. This goes back to what I was saying, I'm comparing the styles - not the actual players.)

2- I may be completely wrong, but I believe NBADraft.Net goes by what a player actually does in Europe. My issue was how the one quote you decided to post was based off of one game, but I don't feel that every single scouting site also uses that same game as their foundation.

As for Bertan's Draft.Net profile, the strengths and weaknesses they used were what Bertans had in 2011 (when he was more one-dimensional). The Korver/Dunleavy comparison however is what they saw as a ceiling, and Bertans has been getting closer to it every year. That's why I have a problem with using the actual scouting report against him.

3- Then I'm not really sure what we're arguing over. I don't think Bertans is NBA ready either, I'd give it another year or maybe two. The only point I've ever tried to make by even posting in this thread was how Bertans is a more versatile shooter than Daye.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

i think that's playing it too safe. the guys have nba talent, analysts put them on the radar. the players themselves have faith in their games, that's why they declared eligibility. "scared man can't gamble." the spurs gotta take a chance on these guys. draft and stash got his acl torn in the first place. And he wasn't alone. I think the spurs should grow a pair when it comes to these draft and stashers.

That's like barely learning algebra then expecting to do fine when thrown into a college level calculus course. Why not bridge the gap?

[TheGoldStandard]

LJC will be in camp next summer, let him get healed up and another full year of euro ball. If the Spurs really wanted Bertans he would be here, he's not ready yet for what they want to use him for but that can change quickly.

[FireMicoHalili]

Buddy, LJC and Bertans aren't biased examples. They're relevant.

You say you could argue that Manu would be worse if the spurs had just brought him over? I say think about that. Manu is good because Manu is good. Benching him in a superior league vs playing him in an inferior one, it doesn't matter. He's gonna shine, because Manu shines. Same with Splitter, and contrarily or not, Anybody... but that's irrelevant.

We're talking about the same thing. At least, when it comes to players to play with Tony and Kawhi in the post-Duncan era. Developmental talent and do actual minutes abroad have value. I say sure, if a guy wants to play for his national team or finish out his contract. But not for any other reason. If Bertans and LJC are good, then bring them in and let them prove their way into minutes or back the hell where they came from. All the abroad minutes has done is mess up their knees.

F Bonner and Ayers, why pay somebody elses draft busts when you can just draft? F the Blazers and Thunder, this is the spurs bench. F the cap and the rights, these guys are rookie scale paid and you get 2 every year. F the chicken shit "guys aren't ready" mentality. These guys are draft eligible and the spots for them are at the bottom of the bench. Worse case scenario, you trade them so you cash in on some stupid gm who pays somebody elses draft busts. Mahinmi, btw.
I'm not saying they're irrelevant, I'm saying you're failing to look at the big picture. You're discrediting the whole draft and stash system if you disregard the good it has done for the Spurs and the teams as well.

No one's saying Manu is not good, but your argument reveals its flaw in that way. If a prospect, local or otherwise foreign, is inherently good, why even play college ball. Heck, let the NBA bring over 16 year-olds because they're good. Let's take LeBron's son because he's good. Players are sent to develop abroad to actually develop and make the most of their potential as the top options of their squad, a mentality they can bring to San Antonio. If all minutes abroad did is mess up their knees, what about all the other draft and stash players? I have a problem with your argument that all draft and stash does is bust knees and ruin careers. You're trying to prove a correlation between injured knees and playing abroad with just two players.

The concept is letting them grow abroad rather than languish at the end of the bench. At the end of the bench, players suffer from impatience, the lack of playing time, and stagnation. Bonner and Ayers were not draft busts, they were second rounders. They have a special skill set suited to the system. Bonner was signed way before any of the stash players you so defend were drafted. Ayres is a PF/C - we don't have any players who are center-forwards who can play his game. Why take someone so green when someone with a similar skill set and NBA experience is around? There's a reason contenders sign vets over taking youngsters from the D-League.

I don't know what you mean by 'Mahinmi btw' but he didn't bust his knees playing abroad, and you're banking on a hypothetical that he'd be better if he was brought over right away. Proof is speculative at best, non-conclusive at worst. If he's good, he's good right? Apparently not.

[FireMicoHalili]

Alright, a couple of things

1- Comparisons are a hit or miss. We agree on that, but they're always a best-case/worst-case scenario. Bertans in 2011 was not comparable to Korver or Dunleavy in terms of moving without the ball/shooting off screens (which has really been his biggest improvement), Bertans in 2011 was more of an Austin Daye/Steve Novak type of player. But since he had a quick release and good body control, scouts predicted he could end up a player that of the Korver/Duleavy mold.

Now, in 2014, Bertans is much better and more Korver-esque than he was in 2011.

(Also, Bargnani does play like Dirk. Dirk is just a lot fucking better at it. This goes back to what I was saying, I'm comparing the styles - not the actual players.)

2- I may be completely wrong, but I believe NBADraft.Net goes by what a player actually does in Europe. My issue was how the one quote you decided to post was based off of one game, but I don't feel that every single scouting site also uses that same game as their foundation.

As for Bertan's Draft.Net profile, the strengths and weaknesses they used were what Bertans had in 2011 (when he was more one-dimensional). The Korver/Dunleavy comparison however is what they saw as a ceiling, and Bertans has been getting closer to it every year. That's why I have a problem with using the actual scouting report against him.

3- Then I'm not really sure what we're arguing over. I don't think Bertans is NBA ready either, I'd give it another year or maybe two. The only point I've ever tried to make by even posting in this thread was how Bertans is a more versatile shooter than Daye.
He is Korver-esque based on what, exactly? And oh, I didn't know we were doing trick answers! Bonner also plays like Dirk, he just sucks a lot more at it. Are you saying...Bertans has developed from a Novak-type of player to a Korver-esque player? So...draft and stash works?

That's a belief, not a fact, so I'm going to leave you to your devices as to how NBADraft.net actually evaluates talent. I will give you this though: “I wasn’t talking to NBA scouts or GMs the way that I am now. There weren’t the Synergies; you weren’t getting 30 games for Duke or all the big teams on TV every day. You’d have to go off a lot less footage and stats and so forth. It was more of a crapshoot.” That's Aran Smith, founder of NBADraft.net, on how they evaluate foreign talent. More reading here: http://grantland.com/features/2014-nba-draft-draftexpress-sultan-kosen-martynas-andriuskevicius-johan-petro/. I have been following the draft for a decade now using both sites and DX was more accurate in their assessment of a player's growth and development.

Too bad though, the Spurs just retained Daye. Now we're all just stuck with a what-if. I'm sure the Spurs have hungered for a shooter like Korver for the longest time, and yet they haven't brought Bertans in. Pop and the front office actually has contact with the kid more than I do so obviously they are better at evaluating talent to bring over.

[Prime Time]

He is Korver-esque based on what, exactly? And oh, I didn't know we were doing trick answers! Bonner also plays like Dirk, he just sucks a lot more at it. Are you saying...Bertans has developed from a Novak-type of player to a Korver-esque player? So...draft and stash works?

That's a belief, not a fact, so I'm going to leave you to your devices as to how NBADraft.net actually evaluates talent. I will give you this though: “I wasn’t talking to NBA scouts or GMs the way that I am now. There weren’t the Synergies; you weren’t getting 30 games for Duke or all the big teams on TV every day. You’d have to go off a lot less footage and stats and so forth. It was more of a crapshoot.” That's Aran Smith, founder of NBADraft.net, on how they evaluate foreign talent. More reading here: http://grantland.com/features/2014-nba-draft-draftexpress-sultan-kosen-martynas-andriuskevicius-johan-petro/. I have been following the draft for a decade now using both sites and DX was more accurate in their assessment of a player's growth and development.

Too bad though, the Spurs just retained Daye. Now we're all just stuck with a what-if. I'm sure the Spurs have hungered for a shooter like Korver for the longest time, and yet they haven't brought Bertans in. Pop and the front office actually has contact with the kid more than I do so obviously they are better at evaluating talent to bring over.
Except Bonner doesn't play anything like Bargnani or Dirk. And yeah, draft and stash works. And of course, Bertans isn't ready to come over yet. I have no idea what you're even arguing about anymore.

[FireMicoHalili]

Except Bonner doesn't play anything like Bargnani or Dirk. And yeah, draft and stash works. And of course, Bertans isn't ready to come over yet. I have no idea what you're even arguing about anymore.
Your argument: Bertans is Korver-esque (is this even a word) according to DX and NBADraft.net. You said I said he wasn't based in amateur scouting reports, which is strange because (1) you don't even know where I was reading from; and (2) we have the same exact sources. I quoted your source which you tried to rebuff by downplaying your sources' actual reports, indicating the only reliable portions were player comparisons, good for only three years, a parameter which has no footing whatsoever. I cited Bertans' draft class and their player comparisons. We agreed on a hit-miss, you shifted the argument to their ceiling, totally disregarding their floor. I cited Grantland and Aran Smith, founder of NBADraft, who admitted their evaluations of Euro prospects were more or less a crapshoot. It has all boiled down to you citing a source, said sources being used against you, isolating portions of that source, and using a four-game sample size to buttress a claim that is pure speculation at this point.

[Prime Time]

Your argument: Bertans is Korver-esque (is this even a word) according to DX and NBADraft.net. You said I said he wasn't based in amateur scouting reports, which is strange because (1) you don't even know where I was reading from; and (2) we have the same exact sources. I quoted your source which you tried to rebuff by downplaying your sources' actual reports, indicating the only reliable portions were player comparisons, good for only three years, a parameter which has no footing whatsoever. I cited Bertans' draft class and their player comparisons. We agreed on a hit-miss, you shifted the argument to their ceiling, totally disregarding their floor. I cited Grantland and Aran Smith, founder of NBADraft, who admitted their evaluations of Euro prospects were more or less a crapshoot. It has all boiled down to you citing a source, said sources being used against you, isolating portions of that source, and using a four-game sample size to buttress a claim that is pure speculation at this point.

I said Bertans is much more versatile shooter than Daye (which I stand by), you come in saying Bertans would be crushed by athletic small-forwards or bowling ball shooting guards. I'll admit that I was wrong to disagree (for some reason my mind skipped the "athletic" in "athletic small-forwards", and I thought you said he'd be thrown like a bowling ball against shooting guards. My mistake)

But since then it seems like you haven't been paying attention to anything I've said. I stated that DraftExpress and Draft.Net predicted his ceiling would be Korver/Dunleavy, which I personally agreed with. You then throw some outdated scouting report from the same site, which just isn't fair to Bertans by any standards. I try to tell you that I'm only talking about the ceiling player they used, because Bertans has grown a lot as a player since that particular scouting report. And yet you still use the same scouting report from 3 years ago.. I don't get why it's so hard for you to understand what I'm saying. I'll try one more time to explain.

At the time (2011), Bertans was more of a spot-up shooter - thus the Daye/Novak comparisons and the outdated scouting reports. But due to his quick release and body control, Draft.Net and DraftExpress claimed his ceiling player was Korver/Dunleavy. Since 2011, Davis has developed as a scorer and is now more comparable to those latter 2 players. The scouting reports from 2011 are mostly irrelevant now in the process. I'm not saying scouting reports are useless, I'm just saying that they don't hold as much credibility 3 years later.

The funny thing is, I agree with the majority of claims you've stated. About Bertans not being ready, about players developing, etc. But it seems as if you're trying to create an argument that really isn't there by bringing up the same points I don't find credible.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Buddy, LJC and Bertans aren't biased examples. They're relevant.

You say you could argue that Manu would be worse if the spurs had just brought him over? I say think about that. Manu is good because Manu is good. Benching him in a superior league vs playing him in an inferior one, it doesn't matter. He's gonna shine, because Manu shines. Same with Splitter, and contrarily or not, Anybody... but that's irrelevant.

We're talking about the same thing. At least, when it comes to players to play with Tony and Kawhi in the post-Duncan era. Developmental talent and do actual minutes abroad have value. I say sure, if a guy wants to play for his national team or finish out his contract. But not for any other reason. If Bertans and LJC are good, then bring them in and let them prove their way into minutes or back the hell where they came from. All the abroad minutes has done is mess up their knees.

F Bonner and Ayers, why pay somebody elses draft busts when you can just draft? F the Blazers and Thunder, this is the spurs bench. F the cap and the rights, these guys are rookie scale paid and you get 2 every year. F the chicken shit "guys aren't ready" mentality. These guys are draft eligible and the spots for them are at the bottom of the bench. Worse case scenario, you trade them so you cash in on some stupid gm who pays somebody elses draft busts. Mahinmi, btw.

While I tend to agree with draft-and-stash Spurs-style, and think the string of blown ACLs is just coincidence and would have happened here, in the D-league, or regular season, or practice, both sides of the discussion have been good reads.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

I'm not saying they're irrelevant, I'm saying you're failing to look at the big picture. You're discrediting the whole draft and stash system if you disregard the good it has done for the Spurs and the teams as well.

No one's saying Manu is not good, but your argument reveals its flaw in that way. If a prospect, local or otherwise foreign, is inherently good, why even play college ball. Heck, let the NBA bring over 16 year-olds because they're good. Let's take LeBron's son because he's good. Players are sent to develop abroad to actually develop and make the most of their potential as the top options of their squad, a mentality they can bring to San Antonio. If all minutes abroad did is mess up their knees, what about all the other draft and stash players? I have a problem with your argument that all draft and stash does is bust knees and ruin careers. You're trying to prove a correlation between injured knees and playing abroad with just two players.

The concept is letting them grow abroad rather than languish at the end of the bench. At the end of the bench, players suffer from impatience, the lack of playing time, and stagnation. Bonner and Ayers were not draft busts, they were second rounders. They have a special skill set suited to the system. Bonner was signed way before any of the stash players you so defend were drafted. Ayres is a PF/C - we don't have any players who are center-forwards who can play his game. Why take someone so green when someone with a similar skill set and NBA experience is around? There's a reason contenders sign vets over taking youngsters from the D-League.

I don't know what you mean by 'Mahinmi btw' but he didn't bust his knees playing abroad, and you're banking on a hypothetical that he'd be better if he was brought over right away. Proof is speculative at best, non-conclusive at worst. If he's good, he's good right? Apparently not.

I do mean to discredit the draft and stash system. I discredit on the basis that any project that has turned out well, would have turned out well regardless of being stashed. Scratch that, they might have turned out better. AND, of all the projects that went bust perhaps at least one might have turned out better. (Knees, Motorcycle accident, other injury, lack of desire to come over because they shined abroad and got paid, finally being brought over and not having the potential they once had) Knees were just the easiest broad stroke, don't get hung up on it.

You specifically pointed out a possible argument that Manu could have went bust, had he been brought over the year he was drafted. I call bs. You say any 16 year old (would have to be phenom) or son of Lebron would be better developed by forcing them through college or inferior leagues, i call bs. You say stagnation, impatience, and lack of playing time are more apparently negative than the "development" of actual minutes abroad... bs. "Bonner and Ayers were not draft busts"!!!???? cause they're second rounders, come on man. You lack vision, that's just plain pessimism. A guy wants make the comparison of college level calculus courses on a taste of algebra education, i call... actually hold on a minute, ok.

So the Spurs roster and the NBA are some kinda college level calculus competition. Draft and stash prospects are high school/equivalency grads with a taste of Algebra, a generally favorable evaluation, and of course a scholarship. Meet Professor Pop. Here are his favorite students and class tutors, they're called the big 3 (now 4.) There's another 7/10 students of high character, and whatever wisdom they have to offer. These students are actually competitors for you're stipend money, but they're also evaluated on class average. So in a way, they benefit from your success and offer what they can to help. This courses' evaluation system is innovative and constructive in a way that even rival colleges envy. I think the student and the class, are gonna be ok. Oh, btw for this student, there's an additional remedial course that focuses on aging the student, while exposing him to factors like women, money, bad attitude, and disease. Potentially causing him to drop out, and the college wasting a scholarship. We said this course was innovative.

Hell, looking at it like that. I guess if the prospect busts out during remedial course, maybe he was never fit for the roster. Maybe he wasn't good. What am i arguing? Oh yeah, 7/10 + 3/4 is 14 tops. There's a spot on the bench for the remedial student. I doubt the remedial student will slow progress for the rest of the class. Imo, the class is better off with such a promising young mind to groom. Much better than it would be if the spot is used on a red shirt student who has failed a similar, yet inferior, course.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I do mean to discredit the draft and stash system. I discredit on the basis that any project that has turned out well, would have turned out well regardless of being stashed. Scratch that, they might have turned out better. AND, of all the projects that went bust perhaps at least one might have turned out better. (Knees, Motorcycle accident, other injury, lack of desire to come over because they shined abroad and got paid, finally being brought over and not having the potential they once had) Knees were just the easiest broad stroke, don't get hung up on it.

You specifically pointed out a possible argument that Manu could have went bust, had he been brought over the year he was drafted. I call bs. You say any 16 year old (would have to be phenom) or son of Lebron would be better developed by forcing them through college or inferior leagues, i call bs. You say stagnation, impatience, and lack of playing time are more apparently negative than the "development" of actual minutes abroad... bs. "Bonner and Ayers were not draft busts"!!!???? cause they're second rounders, come on man. You lack vision, that's just plain pessimism. A guy wants make the comparison of college level calculus courses on a taste of algebra education, i call... actually hold on a minute, ok.

So the Spurs roster and the NBA are some kinda college level calculus competition. Draft and stash prospects are high school/equivalency grads with a taste of Algebra, a generally favorable evaluation, and of course a scholarship. Meet Professor Pop. Here are his favorite students and class tutors, they're called the big 3 (now 4.) There's another 7/10 students of high character, and whatever wisdom they have to offer. These students are actually competitors for you're stipend money, but they're also evaluated on class average. So in a way, they benefit from your success and offer what they can to help. This courses' evaluation system is innovative and constructive in a way that even rival colleges envy. I think the student and the class, are gonna be ok. Oh, btw for this student, there's an additional remedial course that focuses on aging the student, while exposing him to factors like women, money, bad attitude, and disease. Potentially causing him to drop out, and the college wasting a scholarship. We said this course was innovative.

Hell, looking at it like that. I guess if the prospect busts out during remedial course, maybe he was never fit for the roster. Maybe he wasn't good. What am i arguing? Oh yeah, 7/10 + 3/4 is 14 tops. There's a spot on the bench for the remedial student. I doubt the remedial student will slow progress for the rest of the class. Imo, the class is better off with such a promising young mind to groom. Much better than it would be if the spot is used on a red shirt student who has failed a similar, yet inferior, course.

The Spurs are a victim of their own success. They acquire and develop more talent than allowed on the roster. The draft and stash system allows them to continue to develop it and keep it under their influence until they can use it.

[FireMicoHalili]

I do mean to discredit the draft and stash system. I discredit on the basis that any project that has turned out well, would have turned out well regardless of being stashed. Scratch that, they might have turned out better. AND, of all the projects that went bust perhaps at least one might have turned out better. (Knees, Motorcycle accident, other injury, lack of desire to come over because they shined abroad and got paid, finally being brought over and not having the potential they once had) Knees were just the easiest broad stroke, don't get hung up on it.

You specifically pointed out a possible argument that Manu could have went bust, had he been brought over the year he was drafted. I call bs. You say any 16 year old (would have to be phenom) or son of Lebron would be better developed by forcing them through college or inferior leagues, i call bs. You say stagnation, impatience, and lack of playing time are more apparently negative than the "development" of actual minutes abroad... bs. "Bonner and Ayers were not draft busts"!!!???? cause they're second rounders, come on man. You lack vision, that's just plain pessimism. A guy wants make the comparison of college level calculus courses on a taste of algebra education, i call... actually hold on a minute, ok.

So the Spurs roster and the NBA are some kinda college level calculus competition. Draft and stash prospects are high school/equivalency grads with a taste of Algebra, a generally favorable evaluation, and of course a scholarship. Meet Professor Pop. Here are his favorite students and class tutors, they're called the big 3 (now 4.) There's another 7/10 students of high character, and whatever wisdom they have to offer. These students are actually competitors for you're stipend money, but they're also evaluated on class average. So in a way, they benefit from your success and offer what they can to help. This courses' evaluation system is innovative and constructive in a way that even rival colleges envy. I think the student and the class, are gonna be ok. Oh, btw for this student, there's an additional remedial course that focuses on aging the student, while exposing him to factors like women, money, bad attitude, and disease. Potentially causing him to drop out, and the college wasting a scholarship. We said this course was innovative.

Hell, looking at it like that. I guess if the prospect busts out during remedial course, maybe he was never fit for the roster. Maybe he wasn't good. What am i arguing? Oh yeah, 7/10 + 3/4 is 14 tops. There's a spot on the bench for the remedial student. I doubt the remedial student will slow progress for the rest of the class. Imo, the class is better off with such a promising young mind to groom. Much better than it would be if the spot is used on a red shirt student who has failed a similar, yet inferior, course.
Knees are your only proof, that's the correlation you've been trying to prove all along. No proof they might have turned out better. All this is based on a hypothetical with no proof whatsoever. Again, speculative at best, non-conclusive at worst. I could give you a long list of busts who spent their careers languishing on the end of the bench and eventually making it out of the league. You call BS because...? If you're going to argue a point, I suggest you provide proof. All you've done is argue with emotion using cuss words. No solid proof the whole time. Beginning to think arguing with you is pointless if you keep banking on hypotheticals. Courts rarely count what-ifs as solid proof if unsubstantiated.

A class is better off with a student which slows down the class, slows down the progress of top learners? Here's the thing: basketball is not a class. It's a professional league. Shape up or ship out. The Spurs are a contender. They need anything which helps them attain the ultimate goal: winning a championship. What are important to a championship-caliber team? Experience, familiarity, a grasp of a team dynamic. Farming players abroad allows the roster to develop their assets elsewhere without sacrificing roster spots for experienced veterans. The Spurs don't lose out in case the player turns out to be a gem; they retain rights without sacrificing a roster spot. If the prospect never shines abroad, what makes you think he makes a decent showing in the NBA? This is not a class; this is a job. If we base it off your argument, it's like taking a high school student directly to a hospital to operate on patients because heck, he's going to be a good doctor anyway. Take a kid without firefighting training and let him hose down houses on fire. Pluck any smartass out of the class and take him to court to defend your clients because he's smart anyway. Never mind the learning pains and the possible mistakes it could cause, right? Never mind the frustration it brings the young'un, let's just keep throwing them into the fire. Let's just take any forum troll and make him league commissioner, because if he's good, he's going to help avoid all the loopholes the Miami Heat can create with the current CBA.

So you want me to demolish your argument with "I call bs"? Jesus Christ. Then again what did I expect out of an Internet forum.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Knees are your only proof, that's the correlation you've been trying to prove all along. No proof they might have turned out better. All this is based on a hypothetical with no proof whatsoever. Again, speculative at best, non-conclusive at worst. I could give you a long list of busts who spent their careers languishing on the end of the bench and eventually making it out of the league. You call BS because...? If you're going to argue a point, I suggest you provide proof. All you've done is argue with emotion using cuss words. No solid proof the whole time. Beginning to think arguing with you is pointless if you keep banking on hypotheticals. Courts rarely count what-ifs as solid proof if unsubstantiated.

A class is better off with a student which slows down the class, slows down the progress of top learners? Here's the thing: basketball is not a class. It's a professional league. Shape up or ship out. The Spurs are a contender. They need anything which helps them attain the ultimate goal: winning a championship. What are important to a championship-caliber team? Experience, familiarity, a grasp of a team dynamic. Farming players abroad allows the roster to develop their assets elsewhere without sacrificing roster spots for experienced veterans. The Spurs don't lose out in case the player turns out to be a gem; they retain rights without sacrificing a roster spot. If the prospect never shines abroad, what makes you think he makes a decent showing in the NBA? This is not a class; this is a job. If we base it off your argument, it's like taking a high school student directly to a hospital to operate on patients because heck, he's going to be a good doctor anyway. Take a kid without firefighting training and let him hose down houses on fire. Pluck any smartass out of the class and take him to court to defend your clients because he's smart anyway. Never mind the learning pains and the possible mistakes it could cause, right? Never mind the frustration it brings the young'un, let's just keep throwing them into the fire. Let's just take any forum troll and make him league commissioner, because if he's good, he's going to help avoid all the loopholes the Miami Heat can create with the current CBA.

So you want me to demolish your argument with "I call bs"? Jesus Christ. Then again what did I expect out of an Internet forum.

Dude, have you ever seen a time travel movie? Some time travel movies depict how certain things are universal in time. And can't be stopped, no matter what historical changes take place. Some movies don't bother with that. The tiniest change causes all kinds of dramatically different events. I can't prove that Manu is Manu, no matter what changes in his developmental history. But i don't think it takes a grand leap of faith to assume he's a natural Manu. He woulda been as great as his is, regardless of benched his first year or stashed for even longer.

I apply the Manu is Manu logic to the current draft stash projects. That logic applied, i think time overseas is a waste. Tbh, this is specifically in regards to any poster who thinks Bonner should be re-signed while Bertans stays overseas. Bonner's role on the bench is to stretch the floor. His d and rebounding abilities are garbage. He's gotta have a good post defender/rebound on the floor any minute he plays. If you fool yourself into thinking otherwise, "Bonner got the best of ole Ibaka," you're overvaluing Bonner. Pop got best of ole Ibaka! I guarantee Ibaka's eyes light up, for the rest of his career, at the idea of any awkward stretch 4 trying to defend and outboard him.

Bonner is an old, tall, white, guy who can drop 3's really well. Bertans is young, tall, white, guy who can drop 3's real well. Neither should be expected to get the best of ole Ibaka, but both should be expected to do their part in a system that can. Bonner's nba savy and spurs savy are not reasons to keep him in his roster spot. Any tall, white, draft and stasher who can drop 3's real well and has a brain in his head can and should fill that role. Especially while they're still young and healthy and have the potential to not be a garbage rebouder and defender.

LJC... nevermind.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Knees are your only proof, that's the correlation you've been trying to prove all along. No proof they might have turned out better. All this is based on a hypothetical with no proof whatsoever. Again, speculative at best, non-conclusive at worst. I could give you a long list of busts who spent their careers languishing on the end of the bench and eventually making it out of the league. You call BS because...? If you're going to argue a point, I suggest you provide proof. All you've done is argue with emotion using cuss words. No solid proof the whole time. Beginning to think arguing with you is pointless if you keep banking on hypotheticals. Courts rarely count what-ifs as solid proof if unsubstantiated.

A class is better off with a student which slows down the class, slows down the progress of top learners? Here's the thing: basketball is not a class. It's a professional league. Shape up or ship out. The Spurs are a contender. They need anything which helps them attain the ultimate goal: winning a championship. What are important to a championship-caliber team? Experience, familiarity, a grasp of a team dynamic. Farming players abroad allows the roster to develop their assets elsewhere without sacrificing roster spots for experienced veterans. The Spurs don't lose out in case the player turns out to be a gem; they retain rights without sacrificing a roster spot. If the prospect never shines abroad, what makes you think he makes a decent showing in the NBA? This is not a class; this is a job. If we base it off your argument, it's like taking a high school student directly to a hospital to operate on patients because heck, he's going to be a good doctor anyway. Take a kid without firefighting training and let him hose down houses on fire. Pluck any smartass out of the class and take him to court to defend your clients because he's smart anyway. Never mind the learning pains and the possible mistakes it could cause, right? Never mind the frustration it brings the young'un, let's just keep throwing them into the fire. Let's just take any forum troll and make him league commissioner, because if he's good, he's going to help avoid all the loopholes the Miami Heat can create with the current CBA.

So you want me to demolish your argument with "I call bs"? Jesus Christ. Then again what did I expect out of an Internet forum.

Some Decolo's are natural Decolo's. They're a bust because they're a bust. It doesn't have to take years of development and patience to find out. And honestly, i'm even sure Decolo was a natural bust. I think Pop fell in love with Neal too much, and didn't give him enough minutes. But it's hard to make that case with the way Neal scored.

[FireMicoHalili]

Dude, have you ever seen a time travel movie? Some time travel movies depict how certain things are universal in time. And can't be stopped, no matter what historical changes take place. Some movies don't bother with that. The tiniest change causes all kinds of dramatically different events. I can't prove that Manu is Manu, no matter what changes in his developmental history. But i don't think it takes a grand leap of faith to assume he's a natural Manu. He woulda been as great as his is, regardless of benched his first year or stashed for even longer.

I apply the Manu is Manu logic to the current draft stash projects. That logic applied, i think time overseas is a waste. Tbh, this is specifically in regards to any poster who thinks Bonner should be re-signed while Bertans stays overseas. Bonner's role on the bench is to stretch the floor. His d and rebounding abilities are garbage. He's gotta have a good post defender/rebound on the floor any minute he plays. If you fool yourself into thinking otherwise, "Bonner got the best of ole Ibaka," you're overvaluing Bonner. Pop got best of ole Ibaka! I guarantee Ibaka's eyes light up, for the rest of his career, at the idea of any awkward stretch 4 trying to defend and outboard him.

Bonner is an old, tall, white, guy who can drop 3's really well. Bertans is young, tall, white, guy who can drop 3's real well. Neither should be expected to get the best of ole Ibaka, but both should be expected to do their part in a system that can. Bonner's nba savy and spurs savy are not reasons to keep him in his roster spot. Any tall, white, draft and stasher who can drop 3's real well and has a brain in his head can and should fill that role. Especially while they're still young and healthy and have the potential to not be a garbage rebouder and defender.

LJC... nevermind.
Okay, tell me when (a) you've built a time machine or; (b) actually have this footage of this alternate reality where Manu or the rest of the draft and stash projects would actually be doing better. Everything you posit is a mere hope or expectancy. No weight. I'll end the argument right here, seeing all you have in the bag is a slew of hypotheticals which have so far failed to buttress your claim. Front office isn't listening or reading this anyway.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Okay, tell me when (a) you've built a time machine or; (b) actually have this footage of this alternate reality where Manu or the rest of the draft and stash projects would actually be doing better. Everything you posit is a mere hope or expectancy. No weight. I'll end the argument right here, seeing all you have in the bag is a slew of hypotheticals which have so far failed to buttress your claim. Front office isn't listening or reading this anyway.

how can a hopeful alternate reality expectancy have weight? drink a beer! I don't see how it's so hard to accept the simple idea that open roster spots + draft rights = filled roster spots.

[littlecoyotecoin]

The difference between Bertans and Daye is that Bertans is much more versatile shooter. By that I mean he can shoot off screens, off the dribble, pull-up in transitions, and on spot-ups. Think of him as a 6'10" Kyle Korver.

Austin Daye is primarily just a spot-up shooter

I think you're over/under-rating Bertans/Daye, repectively. Bertans isn't as great an all around shooter as you state. He is also not a great ball-handler, and his defensive weaknesses are obvious to many. And, this is against non-NBA competition. Daye, despite his short-comings, has been performing against NBA competition. If you read this critique of a player:

"Haven't seen Hanga play this year but I do not agree about Bertans. I saw quite a few Partizan games this season and saw nothing at all in him that makes me think he will ever contribute at NBA level. While he did shoot 47% from 3 in Euroleague play, he only shot 22% inside the arc. He is too weak to guard 4's, too slow to guard 3's and really doesn't look like he is interested on the defensive end. He is an awful rebounder. Offensively he is extremely one dimensional, averaging 0.7 assists and 1.2 turnovers per game and really doesn't put the ball on the floor well. In a crucial game against Bamberg he had 2 costly turnovers at big moments in the game."

...and consider the question: Would I be in love with that player if I didn't already know his name? Daye was recently criticized for shooting mid-high 30% over a small sample from inside the arc against NBA competition, even though his career numbers are higher. Your much more versatile shooter shot 22% over a season of Euroleague play against lesser competition. Daye is a much, much better passer, and decent at putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket, dishing, drawing fouls, or scoring. Daye is a much better rebounder, currently leading the summer league team in rebounding. Both of their defenses are suspect, but Daye's has been decent in summer league. I would like to see Bertans get a shot, but the notion that he is so ready that we need to leapfrog him ahead of other project players like Daye is not reasonable. He has plenty of improvement to accomplish while Daye gets his shot this year.

The Spurs seem to continue to agree that he is still not ready as he is signing a new 3 year deal with a new team:

http://projectspurs.com/2014-articles/report-bertans-close-to-signing-with-baskonia.html

[Prime Time]

I think you're over/under-rating Bertans/Daye, repectively. Bertans isn't as great an all around shooter as you state. He is also not a great ball-handler, and his defensive weaknesses are obvious to many. And, this is against non-NBA competition. Daye, despite his short-comings, has been performing against NBA competition. If you read this critique of a player:

"Haven't seen Hanga play this year but I do not agree about Bertans. I saw quite a few Partizan games this season and saw nothing at all in him that makes me think he will ever contribute at NBA level. While he did shoot 47% from 3 in Euroleague play, he only shot 22% inside the arc. He is too weak to guard 4's, too slow to guard 3's and really doesn't look like he is interested on the defensive end. He is an awful rebounder. Offensively he is extremely one dimensional, averaging 0.7 assists and 1.2 turnovers per game and really doesn't put the ball on the floor well. In a crucial game against Bamberg he had 2 costly turnovers at big moments in the game."

...and consider the question: Would I be in love with that player if I didn't already know his name? Daye was recently criticized for shooting mid-high 30% over a small sample from inside the arc against NBA competition, even though his career numbers are higher. Your much more versatile shooter shot 22% over a season of Euroleague play against lesser competition. Daye is a much, much better passer, and decent at putting the ball on the floor and driving to the basket, dishing, drawing fouls, or scoring. Daye is a much better rebounder, currently leading the summer league team in rebounding. Both of their defenses are suspect, but Daye's has been decent in summer league. I would like to see Bertans get a shot, but the notion that he is so ready that we need to leapfrog him ahead of other project players like Daye is not reasonable. He has plenty of improvement to accomplish while Daye gets his shot this year.

The Spurs seem to continue to agree that he is still not ready as he is signing a new 3 year deal with a new team:

http://projectspurs.com/2014-articles/report-bertans-close-to-signing-with-baskonia.html
1 - Bertans shot 43% from 3 in his last season. To say he's not an all-around shooter is absurd. Never claimed he was a good finisher though.

2 - Daye is nothing but shortcomings. Dude has never been a legit NBA player, and at 26 he obviously has less potential than Bertans.

3 - Where are you getting that quote from?

4 - By "versatile shooter" I meant he can shoot off-screens, moves quick without the ball, etc. Daye is just a spot-up shooter, who can only hit shots when WIDE open.

5 - Again, never said he was NBA ready. Where do people pull this out from?

[admiralsnackbar]

I do mean to discredit the draft and stash system. I discredit on the basis that any project that has turned out well, would have turned out well regardless of being stashed. Scratch that, they might have turned out better.

If you've ever run a business, you know that it's better to develop somebody on someone else's dime. The argument that developing raw talent in-house might yield better results isn't really supported by the record (name a first round pick with guaranteed bench-space who actually developed into a usable piece... it's a very short list, and no... George Hill doesn't belong on it).

It's also impractical and unfair to the developing talent: if you're a player and you can win $50k-400k playing abroad, why should you be relegated to the NBDL for $25k because there really aren't any roster spots you can fill immediately?

Determining durability is also an issue. Why risk bringing in players with knee issues when you can let them demonstrate whether they can cope with the grind? There's a big-ass difference between the Euroleague seasons and the 82 game grind of the NBA.

[littlecoyotecoin]

1 - Bertans shot 43% from 3 in his last season. To say he's not an all-around shooter is absurd. Never claimed he was a good finisher though.

2 - Daye is nothing but shortcomings. Dude has never been a legit NBA player, and at 26 he obviously has less potential than Bertans.

3 - Where are you getting that quote from?

4 - By "versatile shooter" I meant he can shoot off-screens, moves quick without the ball, etc. Daye is just a spot-up shooter, who can only hit shots when WIDE open.

5 - Again, never said he was NBA ready. Where do people pull this out from?

1) Bertans is excellent from three in Europe. But, you can't say "all-around" and then only quote his 3-point shooting. That's diametrically opposed to being "all-around". When you're only shooting 22% inside the arc, that means your mid-range and long twos aren't falling, either, shots off the dribble in traffic not so good...it doesn't mean you are just "not finishing" whatever that means. With many arguments it comes down to semantics. You said "all around" but then only want to consider "all around" shots outside the three point line. I don't get it, but whatever.

2) To say that Daye is "nothing but shortcomings" identifies another problem. When you can't acknowledge that a player has ANY positives in his game, you're letting your bias affect you. Your opinion is that Daye sucks, so EVERYTHING about him sucks. Daye shot 52.5% from 3 his last stint in Detroit. 40-42% over a couple of full NBA seasons. NBA seasons. That is not a short-coming for a 6'11" guy. He is a better rebounder, and better assist man. These things are pretty hard to argue. That is why you ignore them and go to vague attack: "not legit" and "nothing but shortcomings". And, for the record, Bertans has ALSO never been an NBA player, if that is your criticism of Daye. Whereas Daye, actually, HAS BEEN AND IS an NBA player, just one you don't feel is "legit", which is non-quantifiable, as is Bertans "potential" to HOPEFULLY become an NBA player. Lastly, I'm not sure why you introduce potential into a discussion about guys that you seem to agree aren't fighting for the same position. You say you aren't saying Bertans is ready to come over, then what does the 4 1/2 years more potential have to do with anything? If it is determined that he will come to the NBA in a year or two, then Daye will have either been a project that worked out by then, or will have been shipped out. How is that a conflict? And, if Bertans can't beat out a Daye that survived, if necessary, for a spot, in 1-3 years for Daye's position, exactly how good is Bertans if Daye sucks so hard? Daye is on the last year of his contract.

3) For future reference, if you copy and past the quote in Google, it's the first thing that comes up.

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/davis-bertans-becoming-beast

The quote is from May, 2013.

4) Bertans is much more fleet afoot than Daye. He's also a little shorter. But, he doesn't appear to be shooting all that well off of those screens, except out at the 3 point line. That's great. But, again. If you need a screen to get your shot off, it sounds like you also need to be WIDE OPEN. In traffic, inside the arc, he shot 22% during the quoted Euroleage. How versatile is that? Not very. And, maybe he can refine the versatility you are referring to, but in the last two years, not everyone shares your opinion, and there are at least some numbers to refute it, possibly. I am hopeful for him, as well.

5) Where do people pull this stuff out from? That is the premise of the thread - the original post. Txlabrat wants to bring Bertans over NOW. I am glad you agree that Bertans is not ready to come over now. But, again, that was the premise of the thread...that we should bring him over NOW. Unlike you, regarding Daye, I am not saying that Bertans won't be an NBA player. I don't know. I am just saying that I don't think he is ready, and at least some other amateurs like myself seem to agree with me on message boards, and a front office that just won the NBA championship seems to agree (and they disagree with you about Daye). Bertans isn't ready. Seems like we got an agreefest going on, except for TxLabRat. But, he's cool. He'll get over it.

[palangi]

1 - Bertans shot 43% from 3 in his last season. To say he's not an all-around shooter is absurd. Never claimed he was a good finisher though.

2 - Daye is nothing but shortcomings. Dude has never been a legit NBA player, and at 26 he obviously has less potential than Bertans.

3 - Where are you getting that quote from?

4 - By "versatile shooter" I meant he can shoot off-screens, moves quick without the ball, etc. Daye is just a spot-up shooter, who can only hit shots when WIDE open.

5 - Again, never said he was NBA ready. Where do people pull this out from?
Unfortunately the grass is always greener on the other side for some.
And some have a hard time seeing pay their own nose.

At this point Bertans is NOT an upgrade over daye. And giving up on Daye this early could be a huge mistake.

[ChumpDumper]

How many full games of Bertans have you guys seen?

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Bertans and LJC aren't better than Bonner and Daye. Mentioning Hanga, Lobrek, or Dangubic would be hysterically laughable. Potential and youth at the end of the bench doesn't trump the NBA level tested value that Bonner, Daye, Ayers bring.

Bertans and LJC haven't proven themselves yet, according to the experts. I haven't even watched any Bertans, and i only skimmed the hoops summit. I know nothin about they're potential, or potential in general. I believe the spurs future is brighter when drafted players are stashed far away. I doubt they will get hurt or fizzle out while stashed away. I have full confidence that foreign playing time and competition, trump sitting on the bench and garbage minutes during the big 3 era. Stashery will prove more valuable to a post Duncan/Manu roster. I believe playing Bonner against Ibaka is a championship level desperate move. And next season, if the situation calls, i believe Daye and Ayers would be equally championship level ace in the holes. Daye and Ayers are far better desperate options than LJC and Bertans, i see that now.

i'm sorry i wasted your time with this thread. I'm just a drunk troll. I wanted the attention. Maybe i never got enough as a child. I never felt stashed away or neglected, but i don't know... my bad. thanks for the enlightenment.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Far better? No excluded middle here.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

they are far better! immeasurable youth and potential clearly has nothing on nba level experience, and statistically proven value. Bertans and LJC can't predictably execute, shoot, defend, and board enough to compensate for the loss of those abilities from Bonner, and Daye/Ayers. And even if they somehow did, it would be a fluke. The spurs can't afford to lose the draft rights of flukey producers. Stashers must make or break abroad, so they can be givin contracts based on their predictable production or not.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Only two entire games, here, and clips from youtube, which, granted, are highlights, and probably make him appear far better than he is, true. And, granted, that's far fewer complete games than The Spurs front office has watched, so I defer to them.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Only two entire games, here, and clips from youtube, which, granted, are highlights, and probably make him appear far better than he is, true. And, granted, that's far fewer complete games than The Spurs front office has watched, so I defer to them.

yeah you're right, i defer to them too. like i said, close thread. i was an ignorant troll. the spurs FO has the midas touch. i'm a bad fan to have even considered questioning their logic with my ignorant speculation.

[littlecoyotecoin]

yeah you're right, i defer to them too. like i said, close thread. i was an ignorant troll. the spurs FO has the midas touch. i'm a bad fan to have even considered questioning their logic with my ignorant speculation.

I definitely wasn't calling you ignorant. I like your posts, in general. I just disagree with you on this one. And, the FO isn't infallable. Some would just mention a few names like: Jefferson, Scola, and Barbosa to prove that. But, they will bring really young guys over when they think it's merited: Parker. Or, play US rookies, when merited: Kawhi. Anyway, you're all good, DTL. Take care. :toast

[jon123spurs]

Sportando (@ sportando) tweeted at 5:00 AM on Sat, Jul 19, 2014:
Davis Bertans signed a 3-year deal with Baskonia. The contract has NBA out every year. The worth is little shy than 2M of euros, I am told
(https://twitter.com/ sportando/status/ 490436105914056704)

[yavozerb]

Sportando (@ sportando) tweeted at 5:00 AM on Sat, Jul 19, 2014:
Davis Bertans signed a 3-year deal with Baskonia. The contract has NBA out every year. The worth is little shy than 2M of euros, I am told
(https://twitter.com/ sportando/status/ 490436105914056704)

:toast

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Forget if Bertans was ready or not. He wasnt even in a Euro contract. The spurs clearly made the best financial decision here.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Forget if Bertans was ready or not. He wasnt even in a Euro contract. The spurs clearly made the best financial decision here.

Their opinion of Bertans' readiness is so low, even him not being under contract was no enticement.

[ChumpDumper]

Forget if Bertans was ready or not.He played two and a half hours of basketball last season. Obviously ready to dominate the NBA.

[littlecoyotecoin]

He played two and a half hours of basketball last season. Obviously ready to dominate the NBA.

Sounds like a half hour of overkill to me. Get that sumbitch some rest.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Lol! Y'all are soo right. I can't wait to see Bonner mentor his true heirs this season. Ayers/Daye are a collective Bonner prodigy. Not only is there no need for LJC and Bertans, but I hope somebody takes *Baynes off our hands. The Spurs are set.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Sounds like a half hour of overkill to me. Get that sumbitch some rest.

X2! no prolonged injury recovery is ever overkill. Bertans and LJC need serious minute management abroad. The minute managed foreign development is still more valuable than riding the pine in San Antonio. Ayers/Daye, Bonner value considered, of course!

[ChumpDumper]

Have you been drunk for the past week?

This meltdown of yours has staying power.

Bartans played two and a half hours last season because he couldn't physically play any more than that.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Have you been drunk for the past week?

This meltdown of yours has staying power.

Bartans played two and a half hours last season because he couldn't physically play any more than that.

This all actually comes as i've scaled back a bit.

And i'm not debating on the side of playing Bertans.

[ChumpDumper]

This all actually comes as i've scaled back a bit.

And i'm not debating on the side of playing Bertans.It's difficult to tell what you are trying to say at all.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Pop might actually play Bertans and LJC if they were on the roster. And that would be disaster. Not just because they would suck compared to the players they'd replace. But they also shouldn't be playing yet, they aren't healthy enough.

I've seen the light, Chump. I really have. I'm not pounding booze and thinking spurs, anymore. I'm sipping appropriately and loving spurs!

[littlecoyotecoin]

Pop might actually play Bertans and LJC if they were on the roster. And that would be disaster. Not just because they would suck compared to the players they'd replace. But they also shouldn't be playing yet, they aren't healthy enough.

I've seen the light, Chump. I really have. I'm not pounding booze and thinking spurs, anymore. I'm sipping appropriately and loving spurs!

Cool. You sounded a tad sarcastic and bitter. Good to hear we misread it.

[ChumpDumper]

Pop might actually play Bertans and LJC if they were on the roster. And that would be disaster. Not just because they would suck compared to the players they'd replace. But they also shouldn't be playing yet, they aren't healthy enough.You're an idiot.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Cool. You sounded a tax sarcastic and bitter. Good to hear we misread it.

i'm a work in progress.

[littlecoyotecoin]

i'm a work in progress.

Just remember, even in a small market, we have an embarassment of riches so vast, we get to argue about who would better fill the 13th, 14th, and 15th spots.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Just remember, even in a small market, we have an embarassment of riches so vast, we get to argue about who would better fill the 13th, 14th, and 15th spots.

you have a great point, i agree.

...ps that's the exact reason why i argue for youth/potential over stats!

[DrunkTXLabrat]

you have a great point, i agree.

...ps that's the exact reason why i argue for youth/potential over stats!

or argued, whatever!

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Just remember, even in a small market, we have an embarassment of riches so vast, we get to argue about who would better fill the 13th, 14th, and 15th spots.

Let's revive this. 13 bonner, 14 daye, 15 ayers. Lets imagine back before preseason. When I created this thread. That the spurs read it and magically made 13 j green 14 bertans and 15 ljc. Would Baynes, Anderson, and Beli be theoretically better or worse? Would the team have a better record?

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Would the affect on the salary cap be large enough to even matter? Would the post season future look brighter?

[cd021]

Let's revive this. 13 bonner, 14 daye, 15 ayers. Lets imagine back before preseason. When I created this thread. That the spurs read it and magically made 13 j green 14 bertans and 15 ljc. Would Baynes, Anderson, and Beli be theoretically better or worse? Would the team have a better record?

I don't think it would have mattered. All 3 would be probably be DNPing or in Austin. Anderson may of had a bigger role considering he'd technically be the 12th man and Belinelli has missed 10 or so games due to injury and Leonard has missed at least 15 games. The Spurs wouldn't have 4 rookies on a team though, few teams would.

As for next season. I could see all 3 of them on the roster. LJC will likely come over because the Spurs would have to pay him over the rookie scale if he is stashed for a 3rd season. Bringing him over now gives us a 1st round talent, making less than $4 million over 4 seasons.

Bertans apparently has peeked the Spurs interest and it seems to be a matter of time be fore he joins. I heard they had a scout oversees to watch and coach him. With 9 FAs and the need for cheap roster spots to offset a potential high salary FA, he could be an option. I'd expect Green to get a Gary Neal deal (4 year, minimum deal) if they like his long term potential.

Would be interesting to see how they'd be used next season. Bertans is 6'10 and plays like a guard (he's been compared to Korver and Austin Daye) LJC and Green are both 4's but probably aren't going to be rotation players immediately behind Diaw. I'd expect the Spurs to go after someone like Enes Kantor. If and or when they get shot down by Milsap and Gasol. He has plenty of offensive talent and has potential to be a very nice player. He'd be the closes thing to lottery level talent the Spurs would have since Leonard. He could start alongside Splitter and have Diaw back him up.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

I don't think it would have mattered. All 3 would be probably be DNPing or in Austin. Anderson may of had a bigger role considering he'd technically be the 12th man and Belinelli has missed 10 or so games due to injury and Leonard has missed at least 15 games. The Spurs wouldn't have 4 rookies on a team though, few teams would.

As for next season. I could see all 3 of them on the roster. LJC will likely come over because the Spurs would have to pay him over the rookie scale if he is stashed for a 3rd season. Bringing him over now gives us a 1st round talent, making less than $4 million over 4 seasons.

Bertans apparently has peeked the Spurs interest and it seems to be a matter of time be fore he joins. I heard they had a scout oversees to watch and coach him. With 9 FAs and the need for cheap roster spots to offset a potential high salary FA, he could be an option. I'd expect Green to get a Gary Neal deal (4 year, minimum deal) if they like his long term potential.

Would be interesting to see how they'd be used next season. Bertans is 6'10 and plays like a guard (he's been compared to Korver and Austin Daye) LJC and Green are both 4's but probably aren't going to be rotation players immediately behind Diaw. I'd expect the Spurs to go after someone like Enes Kantor. If and or when they get shot down by Milsap and Gasol. He has plenty of offensive talent and has potential to be a very nice player. He'd be the closes thing to lottery level talent the Spurs would have since Leonard. He could start alongside Splitter and have Diaw back him up.

would anderson be better or worse than he is now?

[Chinook]

I don't think it would have mattered. All 3 would be probably be DNPing or in Austin. Anderson may of had a bigger role considering he'd technically be the 12th man and Belinelli has missed 10 or so games due to injury and Leonard has missed at least 15 games. The Spurs wouldn't have 4 rookies on a team though, few teams would.

As for next season. I could see all 3 of them on the roster. LJC will likely come over because the Spurs would have to pay him over the rookie scale if he is stashed for a 3rd season. Bringing him over now gives us a 1st round talent, making less than $4 million over 4 seasons.

Bertans apparently has peeked the Spurs interest and it seems to be a matter of time be fore he joins. I heard they had a scout oversees to watch and coach him. With 9 FAs and the need for cheap roster spots to offset a potential high salary FA, he could be an option. I'd expect Green to get a Gary Neal deal (4 year, minimum deal) if they like his long term potential.

Would be interesting to see how they'd be used next season. Bertans is 6'10 and plays like a guard (he's been compared to Korver and Austin Daye) LJC and Green are both 4's but probably aren't going to be rotation players immediately behind Diaw. I'd expect the Spurs to go after someone like Enes Kantor. If and or when they get shot down by Milsap and Gasol. He has plenty of offensive talent and has potential to be a very nice player. He'd be the closes thing to lottery level talent the Spurs would have since Leonard. He could start alongside Splitter and have Diaw back him up.

Is that statement about Jean-Charles? I wouldn't really put him that high. I think he could be an immediate rotation player if the Spurs don't strike big in FA, but I don't see him has having that high of a ceiling.

[Juggity]

Did either one of these guys ever fully recover from the ACL tears? Haven't heard much about them since then.

[look_at_g_shred]

Is that statement about Jean-Charles? I wouldn't really put him that high. I think he could be an immediate rotation player if the Spurs don't strike big in FA, but I don't see him has having that high of a ceiling.
What player do you think is most comparable to LJC?

[BatManu20]

Did either one of these guys ever fully recover from the ACL tears? Haven't heard much about them since then.

Both have. Here's a vid of Bertans' highlights in this year's Euroleague.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwgmgFyn4I4

[FlAVaK]

Is that statement about Jean-Charles? I wouldn't really put him that high. I think he could be an immediate rotation player if the Spurs don't strike big in FA, but I don't see him has having that high of a ceiling.

I read that as a statement about Kanter.

And Bertans somehow reminds me of Reggie Miller (taller version and not that good of a shooter, obviously. But the motions...)

[CGD]

Bertans looks ready make the leap this summer. Would be disappointed if he doesn't.

Are their any recent videos of LJC?

[FlAVaK]

Are their any recent videos of LJC?

Not on youtube.

[Richie]

Is that statement about Jean-Charles? I wouldn't really put him that high. I think he could be an immediate rotation player if the Spurs don't strike big in FA, but I don't see him has having that high of a ceiling.

Jean-Charles or Kanter?

[FlAVaK]

Found an interview from last december (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2blgel_asvel-time-01-12-14_sport).

And in this game highlights (http://www.lnb.fr/fr/Pro-A/200009/Resultat-match/8837/Lyon-Villeurbanne-Gravelines-Dunkerque) he has a dunk and two blocks...

[FlAVaK]

another block in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2usAwcE6HZk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2usAwcE6HZk

[FlAVaK]

embedding yt doesn´t work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2usAwcE6HZk

[ChumpDumper]

embedding yt doesn´t work?Not if you try to format it as a picture.

[FlAVaK]

and here are a lot of other highlights to search through...

http://www.asvelbasket.com/videos.asp

[FlAVaK]

Not if you try to format it as a picture.

oops

[cd021]

Is that statement about Jean-Charles? I wouldn't really put him that high. I think he could be an immediate rotation player if the Spurs don't strike big in FA, but I don't see him has having that high of a ceiling.

I meant Kantor. 3rd overall pick 4 seasons ago and has been pretty good thus far but not great. I'm not very familiar with LJC. I've heard he has a pretty good jumper and is very long and a good athlete.

[cd021]

would anderson be better or worse than he is now?

Hard to say, maybe slightly better.

[Chinook]

What player do you think is most comparable to LJC?

Was thinking Luc Richard Mbah a Moute. That's be a pretty nice result, as MaM was one of the few guys in the league who could credibly guard 1-5 in the league. Dunno if LJC has the same agility, but he's bigger, so unlike MaM, he could play the four and not be at a big size disadvantage. And if Jean-Charles learns to hit the three, he'll be a much smaller offensive liability than MaM ever was.

[Chinook]

I meant Kantor. 3rd overall pick 4 seasons ago and has been pretty good thus far but not great. I'm not very familiar with LJC. I've heard he has a pretty good jumper and is very long and a good athlete.

If Kanter can really shoot from outside, then he'd have a place in the SL. Otherwise, he'd have to come off the bench with Diaw starting. I will say, though, that a Mills/Anderson/Bertans/Jean-Charles/Kanter bench would be fun to watch.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Kanter would be nice if he comes cheap and is willing to work towards a contract a la Ed Davis rather than a guaranteed big money contract because of his draft position.

[Hemotivo]

I saw Bertans and he's ready

[100%duncan]

If Kanter can really shoot from outside, then he'd have a place in the SL. Otherwise, he'd have to come off the bench with Diaw starting. I will say, though, that a Mills/Anderson/Bertans/Jean-Charles/Kanter bench would be fun to watch.

That's scary, in a bad way.

[Chinook]

That's scary, in a bad way.

It's not idea, but I think it'd have an incredibly high ceiling. You'd have passing, shooting, low-post scoring, defense and athleticism. I'd prefer Cory as the head of that snake, since he's more a PG and a better perimeter defender than Patty. But I'd love it either way.

If the Spurs really use cap space this summer, it probalby comes at the expense of their experienced bench. They'll need to role with newbies, and those guys are probably just as promising as min-salary hangers-on.

[100%duncan]

It's not idea, but I think it'd have an incredibly high ceiling. You'd have passing, shooting, low-post scoring, defense and athleticism. I'd prefer Cory as the head of that snake, since he's more a PG and a better perimeter defender than Patty. But I'd love it either way.

If the Spurs really use cap space this summer, it probalby comes at the expense of their experienced bench. They'll need to role with newbies, and those guys are probably just as promising as min-salary hangers-on.

With/To whom will they use it? Assuming TD and Manu come back, DG and Kawhi sign and stay. Is the cap space basically locked around those 4?

[Chinook]

With/To whom will they use it? Assuming TD and Manu come back, DG and Kawhi sign and stay. Is the cap space basically locked around those 4?

I don't think there's reason to assume the silverbacks will return. There's no discussion of cap space if they do, however. Instead, they'd be lookin at MLE players. Perhaps it's time to bump by Pick-3 thread.

[100%duncan]

I don't think there's reason to assume the silverbacks will return. There's no discussion of cap space if they do, however. Instead, they'd be lookin at MLE players. Perhaps it's time to bump by Pick-3 thread.

Well, of course. But on the other hand, if the Spurs win it all again big if, there's also no reason to assume that they'd retire. But that's for another topic.


Back to that line-up though, I may have sounded a little judgemental since I haven't watch LJC play at all, seen a few highlights of Bertans and not too sold on KA's physical abilities yet. :lol What gives you guys the idea that Kanter will come here though? Besides that he's not used by the Jazz now with the emergence of Gobert.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Hard to say, maybe slightly better.

i would say definitely better. but we just as well as agree. so here's another question, if Kyle Anderson could be better. While adding young, cheap, drafted LJC and Bertans to the end of the bench, which i would (and reasonably so, imo) assume make them better. And still having room to add, imo, the best looking summer league player. Is it worth passing on all that better, to have the experience and potential of Bonner, Ayers, and Daye? Do RC and Pop appear to be more drunk than i?

PS - it's my opinion that Baynes and Beli would also be better in the same way that Anderson would be. minutes + easy on the EYE test = improvement, being better, having a better team.

[Chinook]

Well, of course. But on the other hand, if the Spurs win it all again big if, there's also no reason to assume that they'd retire. But that's for another topic.


Back to that line-up though, I may have sounded a little judgemental since I haven't watch LJC play at all, seen a few highlights of Bertans and not too sold on KA's physical abilities yet. :lol What gives you guys the idea that Kanter will come here though? Besides that he's not used by the Jazz now with the emergence of Gobert.

I was responding to that part of the thread. I wouldn't hate the idea of Kanter at all, but if he were to come to the Spurs, he'd have to be able to shoot in order to play next to Splitter. You don't bench Tiago for Kanter. However, even Kanter on the bench would be worth the money, as he'd be the focal point and surrounded by players who'd play to his strengths.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

i just responded to another thread about offering Aldridge a big contract. i would rather the spurs just skipped Aldridge and went straight for Kantor. although i'd say going for Tristan Thompson first would be a better idea. Kantor kinda seems busty, which would make him a cheaper tire kickin project. He might just not be better than Gobert, which makes him a bargain.

[objective]

If the spurs offer all their cap room to any player, max or not, would they even be able to sign Bertans and give him enough to pay his buyout? I guess they'd have, what, the room exception?

[Mel_13]

If the spurs offer all their cap room to any player, max or not, would they even be able to sign Bertans and give him enough to pay his buyout? I guess they'd have, what, the room exception?

Do you know the amount of the buyout? The Spurs will be allowed to pay up 625K towards a buyout without it counting against the salary cap.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

If the spurs offer all their cap room to any player, max or not, would they even be able to sign Bertans and give him enough to pay his buyout? I guess they'd have, what, the room exception?

if you can't go over cap to sign your own draft right player, the cba is garbage? or maybe you waited to long to finally sign your dang player? or maybe your not planning on signing your player and going over the cap?

[objective]

Do you know the amount of the buyout? The Spurs will be allowed to pay up 625K towards a buyout without it counting against the salary cap.

No idea how much it is.

I suppose a workaround would be to give Bertans the remainder of the mle (3 million or so before being prorated) late this season after his season is over, and though that would decrease their cap room next year, it would preserve their room exception for someone else?

[Mel_13]

No idea how much it is.

I suppose a workaround would be to give Bertans the remainder of the mle (3 million or so before being prorated) late this season after his season is over, and though that would decrease their cap room next year, it would preserve their room exception for someone else?

That would work under the rules, but I don't see Bertans getting more than the minimum on his first NBA contract.

[objective]

Even if Bertans is only getting the minimum, it's in the interest of the spurs to have him locked up for 3-4 years. Only way to do that is with cap room or the mle, maybe the room, don't remember.

So the spurs could use the mle remainder for 4 years (in realty only to get him for the next 3 years) instead of a 2 year deal in the summer.

[Mel_13]

Even if Bertans is only getting the minimum, it's in the interest of the spurs to have him locked up for 3-4 years. Only way to do that is with cap room or the mle, maybe the room, don't remember.

So the spurs could use the mle remainder for 4 years (in realty only to get him for the next 3 years) instead of a 2 year deal in the summer.

I agree.

[objective]

I'll also add that I don't think LJC will even be on the roster next year, so his cap hit would be zero.

I don't see a lot to be excited about with him. The little footage that's available doesn't make me optimistic. He plays with some unremarkable athleticism for the NBA level from what I've seen and doesn't even show off that much skill for a sf or smallball pf. His body isn't freakish like a Kawhi or Giannis, it's just kind of solid. Would he even be better than Jamychal Green? I doubt it.

Bertans of course I was convinced last year could step on a court right now and play. I can easily see him being an effective rotation player. Heck, I think Hanga could be a serviceable 5th wing or maybe even 4th. Sure, he's got 5 years on LJC but I could envision him working on a 13 man active roster. Maybe number 11-13, but I can see it. LJC may be underserved by the lack of copious footage (eg, I was able to watch full Bertans games at the end of last year after he came back). But I am not on the "expecting LJC on next year's team or else will be hugely disappointed" train.

[cd021]

If Kanter can really shoot from outside, then he'd have a place in the SL. Otherwise, he'd have to come off the bench with Diaw starting. I will say, though, that a Mills/Anderson/Bertans/Jean-Charles/Kanter bench would be fun to watch.

I'm interested in seeing just how many young players are on the roster come next season. Whether it be Kantor, Anderson, LJC, Bertans with ,potentially, our first round pick. Maybe even J. Green if he makes enough of an impression. I'd fully expect the Spurs to take a step back next season (probably still a playoff team but less of a given) but I'd be fine with that if it means they build a solid foundation going forward.

Outside of LJC, & Bertans do you think any of the other draft n' stashes have a chance to come over next season (Hanga, Richards, Denmon and Thomas)?

I haven't heard much about Hanga (other than he's been playing pretty well of late and that he has an NBA out after each season).

[cd021]

Kanter would be nice if he comes cheap and is willing to work towards a contract a la Ed Davis rather than a guaranteed big money contract because of his draft position.

The interesting part in Kantor's upcoming RFA is that they already have Favors and Golbert with a pick likely to fall in the top 5 (currently tied for 6th) this seems to be a very big heavy draft and they could take another.

Hopefully the Spurs could land him in the $12-14 over 4 years range. I'd think that Reggie Jackson and Draymond Green will take up most of the attention from teams in RFA and the Spurs could have a decent chance of landing him if Utah is unwilling to resign him to that.

[jyra]

Deshaun Thomas is playing fairly well (shooting over 50% from 3 and 59% on 2s in the Euroleague) for arguably the best team in Europe . Right now he looks the most polished of all the overseas guys. He has played almost all of his minutes at SF this season but if he can do that in the NBA is doubtful. His scoring ability is definitely good enough for the NBA but there is only so much he can do defensively with his lack of athleticism.
He reminds me an awful lot of Gary Neal. I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs traded him to a team that desperately needs some scoring and can overlook his defensive deficiencies.

[Mel_13]

The interesting part in Kantor's upcoming RFA is that they already have Favors and Golbert with a pick likely to fall in the top 5 (currently tied for 6th) this seems to be a very big heavy draft and they could take another.

Hopefully the Spurs could land him in the $12-14 over 4 years range. I'd think that Reggie Jackson and Draymond Green will take up most of the attention from teams in RFA and the Spurs could have a decent chance of landing him if Utah is unwilling to resign him to that.

I agree that Kantor represents a realistic target for 2015, but you're almost guaranteed to overpay to pry an RFA away. At a certain price, a team will match even if they don't really want to keep the player just to retain the asset and trade him later. Tricky game to snag a guy like Kantor or O'Quinn, for another example.

[Chinook]

I'll also add that I don't think LJC will even be on the roster next year, so his cap hit would be zero.

I don't see a lot to be excited about with him. The little footage that's available doesn't make me optimistic. He plays with some unremarkable athleticism for the NBA level from what I've seen and doesn't even show off that much skill for a sf or smallball pf. His body isn't freakish like a Kawhi or Giannis, it's just kind of solid. Would he even be better than Jamychal Green? I doubt it.

Bertans of course I was convinced last year could step on a court right now and play. I can easily see him being an effective rotation player. Heck, I think Hanga could be a serviceable 5th wing or maybe even 4th. Sure, he's got 5 years on LJC but I could envision him working on a 13 man active roster. Maybe number 11-13, but I can see it. LJC may be underserved by the lack of copious footage (eg, I was able to watch full Bertans games at the end of last year after he came back). But I am not on the "expecting LJC on next year's team or else will be hugely disappointed" train.

Jean-Charles will almost certainly be on the roster next season. He already said he was coming over and he has a guaranteed contract when he does.

[Richie]

Jean-Charles will almost certainly be on the roster next season. He already said he was coming over and he has a guaranteed contract when he does.

I'm not so sure, dude is the 11th man for Asvel who are mid table in the Pro A. If he can't even get more than 11 minutes per game in France he's probably not ready for the NBA.

[Mel_13]

I'm not so sure, dude is the 11th man for Asvel who are mid table in the Pro A. If he can't even get more than 11 minutes per game in France he's probably not ready for the NBA.

They can't keep him over there if wants to come to San Antonio.

[FlAVaK]

^I guess Richie meant the Spurs would not want him, because he´s not playing that much and that good.

But what about this: Maybe Asvel doesn´t play him that much, because they want to develope other players, which will be there next year also...
(So they know, Jean is a sure goner!)

[DrunkTXLabrat]

^I guess Richie meant the Spurs would not want him, because he´s not playing that much and that good.

But what about this: Maybe Asvel doesn´t play him that much, because they want to develope other players, which will be there next year also...
(So they know, Jean is a sure goner!)

The spurs should use the same method. ::cough:: Bonner and Ayers ::cough:: the whole idea behind the thread. ::cough::

[cd021]

I agree that Kantor represents a realistic target for 2015, but you're almost guaranteed to overpay to pry an RFA away. At a certain price, a team will match even if they don't really want to keep the player just to retain the asset and trade him later. Tricky game to snag a guy like Kantor or O'Quinn, for another example.

I agree. Kind of what the Nuggets did with Nene (different, in that he was an UFA and had played in the league for a while) they wound up resigning him to a 5 year deal, even if he wasn't in their long term plans and then flipped him before the trade deadline. I guess the Spurs could offer a 3 year deal in the $40-45 million range and hope that Utah takes the conservative approach and let him walk. That doesn't seem like something the Spurs would do though.

[cd021]

I'm not so sure, dude is the 11th man for Asvel who are mid table in the Pro A. If he can't even get more than 11 minutes per game in France he's probably not ready for the NBA.

The Spurs have some incentive. They can lock him up on the rookie scale for 4 seasons starting next season at $918,000. As opposed to waiting another season and having to use an exception or cap space to sign him to a multi-year deal.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Because draft and stash players actually get to play in Europe. Bring them here and let them fill out a roster spot...just to play five minutes a night? To say they get injured while citing Bertans and Jean-Charles is anecdotal evidence. That's simply taking a small sample size to bolster your argument. How about Adam Hanga or DeShaun Thomas? Robertas Javtokas or Sergei Karaulov? The Thunder have good draft and stash players in Tbor Pleiss and Alex Abrines and both have been doing fairly well.


I'm not sure I can say this for Daye but definitely for Bonner: his experience is valuable. It takes a year or two to get acclimated to Pop's system, and the window is closing for Duncan and company. It would be wiser to keep veterans who keep the wheels running than bring in someone with little to no knowledge of the system.


Regarding your argument on their knees, the Spurs brought both forwards over last summer to have them evaluated. If they can't play abroad, what makes you think their knees are in good enough shape to withstand the rigor of an 82-game NBA schedule? By average, a second round pick yields value only 24 percent of the time; it would be absurd to expect tremendous value from players like Bertans.

the serving size was never small and it continues to grow. and https://youtu.be/xWBSf4BfKRk