Greater Argentinian Athlete: Manu or Messi

[ViceCity84]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VaRxwiLKFYs/UaxYqCBL-BI/AAAAAAAAPis/XTxzBZWvvJw/s640/lionel-messi-12a53.jpghttp://damelin.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/manu-ginobili-argentina.jpg

[BanditHiro]

Ginobili...Basketball is a harder sport since you are going up against American Athletes while Messi gets to pick on weak soft Euro athletes.

[PublicOption]

Messi wins the world cup. Its Messi.

[Baam]

:lmao

[BanditHiro]

Messi wins the world cup. Its Messi.

Ginobili won a gold medal beating Team USA. There is nothing Messi can do that can top that tbh.

[lefty]

Maradona




Fucking noobs

[gilmor]

Neymar

[ironman2886]

Hell if I know. I watch as much soccer as I watch Fox News, which is never.

[RD2191]

Neymar
:lol

[RD2191]

My vote goes to the one who plays a real sport.

[cjw]

Ginobili won a gold medal beating Team USA. There is nothing Messi can do that can top that tbh.

This. It would be like Messi leading Iran or a similar team to the title. USA is just that much better

[apalisoc_9]

What kind of bigger are we talking about here?

Popularity?

In terms of popularity Rodrigo Palacio is probably even more famous than Manu :lol

[jkid12456]

Messi.

[MmP]

Ginobili...Basketball is a harder sport since you are going up against American Athletes while Messi gets to pick on weak soft Euro athletes.
Do not agree at all.
I have no clue who is greater, and what you are actually measuring by 'great'. Skill wise Messi is greater in a harder sport (more players around the globe, easier to stop, more fouls allowed). Leadership-wise/mental strenght Manu is and has been superior since he was 23-24 yrs old. Hell, I've never seen any other athlete in a collective sport with the combination of intelligence, skill and atheltic condition as Manu.

[Ginobili3]

Dead tie

[MmP]

This. It would be like Messi leading Iran or a similar team to the title. USA is just that much better
2004 Argentina NT was a complete team overall, Manu was not a one man team. Prime Scola, Oberto, Nocioni. And good supporting cast in every position.

[hitmantb]

Not the same tier sorry.

Messi is the LeBron of soccer, a more popular sport that means more in his country. He is doing it in a 5'7" frame. A World Cup win will put him in god status that is Maradona.

[itsamanuthree]

http://i.imgur.com/T7ZGY.jpg

[Mikeanaro]

Manu and is not even close.

[itsamanuthree]

Eurosofties from Belgium have just beat the crap out of team USA in Football World Cup, FYI.

About Manu and Messi, hell, couldn't tell really. But we could ask ourselves, would Manu replacing Higuaín do better than Messi runing the point? Hmmm...

[Jenks]

http://imgur.com/gallery/cF2o7mW

[mexpurs21]

Messi hasn't won shit with La Albiceleste, so Manu gets the edge.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Messi is arguably the greatest player of all time while Manu isn't even the best player on his own team.

[BatManu20]

Maradona




Fucking noobs

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Pix/pictures/2011/6/21/1308666680997/The-Hand-of-God-007.jpg

[BatManu20]

No seriously though, it's Messi and it's not even close. He's the best footballer in the world and could very well end up the greatest of all time.

[Johnny RIngo]

Messi's a hell of a lot more dominant in his own sport but Manu impresses me more for some reason.

[BanditHiro]

Messi's a hell of a lot more dominant in his own sport but Manu impresses me more for some reason.

probably because Manu plays against better Athletes.

[MANUNG-Ginobili]

http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/uploads/images/normal-images/Pope_Francis_San_Lorenzo.jpg

this man..

[100%duncan]

Messi is a fuckin choker
Drogba put him in his fkn place at the champions league in 2012. Never forget my Chelsea that year.

[Baam]

Messi hasn't won shit with La Albiceleste, so Manu gets the edge.

He has won an Olympic gold medal just like Manu...

[Splits]

Which was worse, Manu's 12 turnovers in 6/7 or Missi going goalless in S. Africa?

Manu got redemption, would be quite the story if Lee followed in his footsteps in a fortnight.

[Old School 44]

On the surface, regardless of whether it's true or not, you'd think Manu would smoke Messi in the voting on a basketball forum frequented by Spurs fans, but then I remember this is SpursTalk. Sadly, lots of haters.

[mexpurs21]

He has won an Olympic gold medal just like Manu...

Yea, 23 and under soccer.
Not even in the same league as olympic basketball

[Malik Hairston]

I voted Messi since he's arguably one of the 5 best of all-time, but it should be noted that Messi is a proven cheater, tbh:lol..

Personally, I believe every pro athlete takes PEDs, so I don't really care, but it's a little strange that Messi gets a pass from everybody for publicly being known as a cheater:lol..

[Kuestmaster]

C'mon, are you serious? I love Manu, but it's Messi and it's not even close.
Just google Messi: 74.800.000 , Manu: 1.740.000.

Ok, Manu beat the USA team with the National team and won the gold medal being the star of Argentina, but that's arguable his highest accomplishment. He's never been the best player in his team in the nba, except maybe from 2008-2010. Messi is the best player in the world since 2008.

He has scored 354 goals in 425 games for Barça. In 2011/12 he scored 50 goals and added 16 assists in 37 games in Liga and 14 goals and 5 assists in 11 Champions League games. That's fucking insane. It's like averaging 50 points and 10 assists per game.

He has 3 golden boots (most in history), and 4 straight Ballon D'or (most in history also).

Don't be homers. I know some of you don't like or understand soccer, but Messi is a legend. Oh, and he also has an olympic medal.

[Arcadian]

I'm biased because I've seen way more of Manu and care way more about basketball, but isn't Messi considered the best player in his sport? That pretty much answers the question.

[Malik Hairston]

What could Manu have been had he taken HGH earlier in his life, though, tbh?..

He could have at least prevented some of the nagging injuries that have plagued him and prevented him from many more potential great moments on his resume..

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

What could Manu have been had he taken HGH earlier in his life, though, tbh?..

He could have at least prevented some of the nagging injuries that have plagued him and prevented him from many more potential great moments on his resume..

He won't go over 300lbs when he retires and will live a healthy life, though.

[thiste]

You gotta be kidding me... I love Manu but even thinking about comparing the two of them is absolutely foolish. Soccer is a way bigger sport than Basketball and Messi's been the best player in the World for at least the last 5-6 years. You're comparing Manu to Jordan here guys.

[DrSteffo]

Messi is the best in a much bigger sport with much tougher worldwide competition. I love Manu, but come on.

[ontheraise]

until US stop callin football, "soccer" i don't see the point trying to debate or argue about anything related to football with them...

[elemento]

Manu

Messi has done nothing as an athlete to Argentina. Not a single title with the main NT team. Got owned several times in Copa America despite having the best supporting cast.

Nobody gives a damn about those under23/20 titles in football, including the Olympic medal.

[spursparker9]

Messi by far.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Dude futbol and BB are entirely two different sports. Manu would own Messi's ass in BB. Believe it or not, with Manu's speed and nimbleness, he probably could hold his own against Messi as a defender.

I go Manu b/c there is a sliver of the population that is as tall as Manu and as athletic as he was. He was probably the most athletic 2 guard in the league in his prime.

Messi is 5'7" and there are a lot of players as athletic as Messi is at that height. Messi just happens to be one of the best goal scorers in the world. Messi also has exceptional control of the ball like Zidane. But Messi has had Xavi and Ineista (two of top 5 Midfielders in the world for the past 6-7 years) to feed him the ball in midfield at Barca.

This would have been equivocal of Manu playing with Stockon and Lebron and both feeding him the ball to score. Imagine Manu's stats if he played with those guys all in their prime. The passing to him on his slashes to the basketball. All the completely wide open 3's off of double teams. Ollie oops from Stockton. Manu just had a selfish Parker as the main distributor.

[Russo21]

Scola thread!

[oski1000]

Messi, Soccer GOAT

[PingPong]

Juan Manuel Fangio

[will_spurs]

On the surface, regardless of whether it's true or not, you'd think Manu would smoke Messi in the voting on a basketball forum frequented by Spurs fans, but then I remember this is SpursTalk. Sadly, lots of haters.

It's not a question of hate, it's a question of knowing what you're talking about. Messi is the equivalent of Lebron right now.

This poll is comparing apples to oranges, no matter how much a Spurs fan can appreciate Manu.

[Kineto]

Manu

Messi has done nothing as an athlete to Argentina. Not a single title with the main NT team. Got owned several times in Copa America despite having the best supporting cast.

Nobody gives a damn about those under23/20 titles in football, including the Olympic medal.

So we can say that Duncan is a scrub because a doesn't won anything with team USA ?

Messi is the best in the world in his sport (witch is the most popular sport in the world).
Manu is the best in his country in his sport (witch is not even the most popular sport in his country).

[Mikeanaro]

C'mon, are you serious? I love Manu, but it's Messi and it's not even close.
Just google Messi: 74.800.000 , Manu: 1.740.000.

Ok, Manu beat the USA team with the National team and won the gold medal being the star of Argentina, but that's arguable his highest accomplishment. He's never been the best player in his team in the nba, except maybe from 2008-2010. Messi is the best player in the world since 2008.

He has scored 354 goals in 425 games for Barça. In 2011/12 he scored 50 goals and added 16 assists in 37 games in Liga and 14 goals and 5 assists in 11 Champions League games. That's fucking insane. It's like averaging 50 points and 10 assists per game.

He has 3 golden boots (most in history), and 4 straight Ballon D'or (most in history also).

Don't be homers. I know some of you don't like or understand soccer, but Messi is a legend. Oh, and he also has an olympic medal.
Lol, Manu is more a legend than Messi, when the fuck Messi has punched a bat?
In terms of fame Messi is like Lebron right now, I understand you are Spanish and probably live in Barcelona but most Americans here voting Messi dont have a fucking clue about FUTBOL.
4 straight Ballons de oro doesnt mean shit they are like the RSeason MVP something made of popular vote.
By your logic one futbol goal equals to 10 BB points, while in BB you have to be running every second even if you dont score in Futbol you can regulate and stay calm while ball is on the other side of the field, then Messi makes a run resulting in a Goal and is like 10 points for some people WTF.
Barcelona has no real competition there are like 30 teams and just 2 other good teams that always get to the finals are the real threat, REAL MADRID and ATLETICO so its easier to pad stats there.
When Euro/Spanish teams made a defensive scheme runing 8 guys down to shut the offenders Messi had no answer at all, I want Argentina to win but then its easier to do it in the World Cup since there is no dominant team in the tournament either.
In futbol you can tie games, or you can make one simple goal and sleep the rest of the game sadly BB doesnt follow those rules, in the playoffs you must play for the best of 7 while in futbol there is only 2 games one as Local and one as Visitant/Guest.

[Budkin]

Manu of course.

[tmtcsc]

Where's the Don't Care option? Manu is the greatest Argentinian athlete to play for the Spurs.

[Jimcs50]

wtf cares? Its soccer

[Jimcs50]

I do believe Manu has more career points as well.

[will_spurs]

This is a great thread for the coming out of manutards.

[spurraider21]

http://i.imgur.com/T7ZGY.jpg
and of course, the armenian one is spelled incorrectly... with the letters they use in this graphic, it would actually be pronounced "foossball"...

it should be ֆուտպոլ and not ֆուսպոլ

[itsamanuthree]

and of course, the armenian one is spelled incorrectly... with the letters they use in this graphic, it would actually be pronounced "foossball"...

it should be ֆուտպոլ and not ֆուսպոլ

Ok... good to know... I guess

[Frankie23]

The thing is that Maradona and Messi are the GOAT in the most popular sport in the world. Manu is not the GOAT in basketball, worldwide.
When your country have the 2 GOATs of the most popular sport on earth, it's hard to compete..

But i can really say that Argentina's basketball team is the best "national team" in the history of the country.

[spurraider21]

Ok... good to know... I guess
:lol my bad. Just irked me when I saw it

[r0drig0lac]

pele >>> messi and is not even close ..lol messi is it already better than maradona?

[littlecoyotecoin]

C'mon, are you serious? I love Manu, but it's Messi and it's not even close.
Just google Messi: 74.800.000 , Manu: 1.740.000.

Ok, Manu beat the USA team with the National team and won the gold medal being the star of Argentina, but that's arguable his highest accomplishment. He's never been the best player in his team in the nba, except maybe from 2008-2010. Messi is the best player in the world since 2008.

He has scored 354 goals in 425 games for Barça. In 2011/12 he scored 50 goals and added 16 assists in 37 games in Liga and 14 goals and 5 assists in 11 Champions League games. That's fucking insane. It's like averaging 50 points and 10 assists per game.

He has 3 golden boots (most in history), and 4 straight Ballon D'or (most in history also).

Don't be homers. I know some of you don't like or understand soccer, but Messi is a legend. Oh, and he also has an olympic medal.

Um, you're confusing popularity with athletic ability. Globally, soccer is far more popular, so the Google hits will, of course, be significantly greater. Secondly, Manu beat Americans at a traditionally American sport. Messi beats other teams in a sport that Argentina has been traditionally good at. I could care less about Messi, but Manu is a down-right stud in his own right. Will probably be underrated his entire career. It's still laughable listening to national media talking heads bring up the debate about whether he should be in the hall of fame...it's not a debate...the fact they try to even discuss it is a slap in the face.

[Frankie23]

pele >>> messi and is not even close ..lol messi is it already better than maradona?
Even you're a Brazilian homer, or you don't know nothing about football.

[davidbowie]

messi is trash. overrated midget.

manu forever.

[dunkman]

Maradona and Di Stefano were still better then Messi, but Messi is young and will probably overtake them as the best soccer player from Argentina.
At this point Messi could make a best top 10 player ever list, while Manu could maybe make a best top 100 list.

[r0drig0lac]

Even you're a Brazilian homer, or you don't know nothing about football.
or you do not know anything about football, you know? works both ways, the difference is that I have facts to base my choice, meanwhile keep believing that messi ever was a better player than Pele, it makes you feel better

[it's me]

Missi ..... and it's not even close.

[ontheraise]

wtf cares? Its soccer

its football

[RD2191]

wtf cares? Its soccer

[Genjuro]

It doesn't matter whether Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano or Cruyff are better than Messi or not. He still has a cushion of dozens of players ahead of Ginobili, who nobody will consider a top-50 player of all time, probably not even top-100. I wouldn't, and he's my favourite player from the past decade.

Besides, football is much more popular world-wide, there's many more people playing it than basketball, so the competition to stand out is a lot tougher. It's not difficult to do the math.

It's ridiculous we're having this discussion, to be honest. It's only good for a few laughs.

[Mikeanaro]

It doesn't matter whether Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano or Cruyff are better than Messi or not. He still has a cushion of dozens of players ahead of Ginobili, who nobody will consider a top-50 player of all time, probably not even top-100. I wouldn't, and he's my favourite player from the past decade.

Besides, football is much more popular world-wide, there's many more people playing it than basketball, so the competition to stand out is a lot tougher. It's not difficult to do the math.

It's ridiculous we're having this discussion, to be honest. It's only good for a few laughs.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5HHavVUlTrk/S_LCUEE8pyI/AAAAAAAAADk/VsyLSZz8d5U/s1600/world-cup-winners1.jpg
If competition is a lot tougher then how the hell are the same countries winning the world cup since 1930?
I don´t care about Pele or if you think Manu is not even top- 30000000000, the subject is the better Argentinian athlete and no one is considering Messi´s age here.

[leo_d]

It doesn't matter whether Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano or Cruyff are better than Messi or not. He still has a cushion of dozens of players ahead of Ginobili, who nobody will consider a top-50 player of all time, probably not even top-100. I wouldn't, and he's my favourite player from the past decade.

.

yes, that´s why what Manu did in 2004 is more impressive than anything Messi did so far. although, things could change in a couple of weeks.

[BanditHiro]

Besides, football is much more popular world-wide, there's many more people playing it than basketball, so the competition to stand out is a lot tougher. It's not difficult to do the math.



if you do the math you will find out that USA creates better athletes than the rest of the world and the fact that the preferred sports are Football and Basketball and not Soccer it's hard to take the claim that he is playing tougher competition than Manu seriously, tbh.

[ontheraise]

if you do the math you will find out that USA creates better athletes than the rest of the world and the fact that the preferred sports are Football and Basketball and not Soccer it's hard to take the claim that he is playing tougher competition than Manu seriously, tbh.
"create better athletes" you means proceed less drug test American football and baseball are pure jokes

[RD2191]

Soccer is not a sport. It's simply running while kicking a ball. I mean, the best soccer player in the world is 5'7 and the greatest of all time was 5'5. Athlete is being generous.

[Skull-1]

its football

It's "it's".


And and it is soccer. And soccer sucks.

[RD2191]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdHsowOBYDs

[RD2191]

^That is an athlete.

[ontheraise]

if you where honest you 'll note that i had just copy/paste the foul of the post that i quoted and just let the foul to make the repetition, i do enough mistake like that don't.
and may i suggest you to open a little bit your mind to the rest of the world, i promise it will not hurt. soccer may suck not football;)

[sook]

:lmao manu fans

[ManuLoco]

It is hard to say. Manu did great at both leves (national and club) while Messi only did good in Barza. But then, Manu in Argentina had a team, Messi never did. Manu in 2004 had a coach, Messi never had a coach in the NT. Manu is obvioulsy less talented basketball-wise, than Messi is football-wise (even if you hate football go watch his highlights and you will admit he got skills). Manu is much more competitive, Messi is one lazy motherfucker (at least what we saw the last 6 months in Barcelona and in the WC). If Messi never achieves anything with Argentina I would say it's a tie.

[Mikeanaro]

It is hard to say. Manu did great at both leves (national and club) while Messi only did good in Barza. But then, Manu in Argentina had a team, Messi never did. Manu in 2004 had a coach, Messi never had a coach in the NT. Manu is obvioulsy less talented basketball-wise, than Messi is football-wise (even if you hate football go watch his highlights and you will admit he got skills). Manu is much more competitive, Messi is one lazy motherfucker (at least what we saw the last 6 months in Barcelona and in the WC). If Messi never achieves anything with Argentina I would say it's a tie.
Messi had a team in 2010 Aguero Veron Tevez Mascherano Higuain Di Maria Milito, Both are equally talented but dont blame Messi getting torched on 2010 because of bad coaching, people forgets HE NEVER SCORED A SINGLE GOAL in 2010 World Cup he played more than 1 game in that tournament.
He is younger but he´s losing some steps already so I would love to see this conversation in 10 years when he reachs his mid-late 30s.
All that HGH on his body because of his growth problems could be passing the bill right now.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Ginobili. Easily.

/thread, tbh

[xmas1997]

I do believe us Spurs fans are a tad bit biased!
:lmao

[barbacoataco]

This isn't even a question. Messi is top 5 all time and ginobili is a 6th man of the year. Soccer is a world sport and in 10 years there will be 4 major leagues that matter plus hockey.

[barbacoataco]

Some posts come off as either sarcastic or idiotic questioning soccer athletes and the quality of competition. It is the most popular sport across the world and can be played by anyone with a ball. It is more accessible than almost any other sport.

Also this whole American athletes are superior is a little strange from Spurs fans who have an almost entirely international team. Don't get me wrong I bleed red,white and blue but I'm also aware that there are great athletes around the world.

[xmas1997]

Some posts come off as either sarcastic or idiotic questioning soccer athletes and the quality of competition. It is the most popular sport across the world and can be played by anyone with a ball. It is more accessible than almost any other sport.

Also this whole American athletes are superior is a little strange from Spurs fans who have an almost entirely international team. Don't get me wrong I bleed red,white and blue but I'm also aware that there are great athletes around the world.

I think they are just kidding you.
The whole time kids all over the USA, probably their kids, are out playing soccer, among other sports of course.

[Manudona]

Juan Manuel Fangio

+1

[kobyz]

Per Argentinians peapole Messi is not Argentinian!

[Typical London Boy]

Depends how we're interpreting the question. If you mean 'athlete' in the most literal sense, then I'd say Ginobili, as he's in better shape and basketball is a far more demanding game physically. If you mean it more generally, I'd say Messi is better at football than Ginobili is at basketball. If I were an Argentine, I'd consider Messi the country's greatest sportsman, with Ginobili second. That's no slight on Ginobili, either - Messi is one of the greatest footballer players of all-time.

[mudyez]

I believe there is a pretty nice comparison regarding Germany:

Germany may be one of the top 3 football crazy countries (England, Brazil, ???) but Dirk Nowitzki really gets what he deserves here, winning sports guy of the year and so on. Manu may not have won MVP/FinalsMVP but WorldCup+Olympics are even bigger.

Long story short: It's gotta be Manu, but its close and if Messi wins the world cup (sounds stupid but other than Di Maria its only Messi at the moment) he is #1 easily.

[ManuLoco]

Messi had a team in 2010 Aguero Veron Tevez Mascherano Higuain Di Maria Milito, Both are equally talented but dont blame Messi getting torched on 2010 because of bad coaching, people forgets HE NEVER SCORED A SINGLE GOAL in 2010 World Cup he played more than 1 game in that tournament.
He is younger but he´s losing some steps already so I would love to see this conversation in 10 years when he reachs his mid-late 30s.
All that HGH on his body because of his growth problems could be passing the bill right now.

I said a team, not just players around him (lol granpa Veron). And you are one of the millions of morons that just criticize Messi in 2010 because he didn't score. Did you watch any Argentina game in 2010? Against Nigeria and South Korea he had amazing games. Against Germany he sucked.
The thing with Ginobili is that he did things that no Argentine would ever thought would be possible. Winning the gold medal in 2004 was not even a possibility before the year 2000. Then becoming an NBA player and be so dominant (well, you know what I mean) for so many years. In a sport that 1% of the population care. I bet we will see another argentine Messi before we see another Argentine Ginobili, and that says a lot given the fact that many people consider Messi at least among the best 5 of all time (Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Distefano, Messi).

[Old School 44]

Obviously they are better than each other in their respective sports, but "better athlete?". I'd take prime Manu over prime Messi any day of the week. Put it this way, if you put them to compete in other sports who would you put your money on?

[Mikeanaro]

I said a team, not just players around him (lol granpa Veron). And you are one of the millions of morons that just criticize Messi in 2010 because he didn't score. Did you watch any Argentina game in 2010? Against Nigeria and South Korea he had amazing games. Against Germany he sucked.
The thing with Ginobili is that he did things that no Argentine would ever thought would be possible. Winning the gold medal in 2004 was not even a possibility before the year 2000. Then becoming an NBA player and be so dominant (well, you know what I mean) for so many years. In a sport that 1% of the population care. I bet we will see another argentine Messi before we see another Argentine Ginobili, and that says a lot given the fact that many people consider Messi at least among the best 5 of all time (Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Distefano, Messi).
I wasnt trying to make him look as a stupid because he didnt score I was just pointing a fact, if someone wants to put him in a pedestal as a perfect god I cant scape from that event this is just my view about the better athlete since my desire is to see my country winning the world cup to shut that lame Maradonga´s ass mouth.

[itsamanuthree]

:lol my bad. Just irked me when I saw it

Sure :toast

[rayray2k8]

Manu.. I could give 2 shit's about "soccer".

[itsamanuthree]

Some posts come off as either sarcastic or idiotic questioning soccer athletes and the quality of competition. It is the most popular sport across the world and can be played by anyone with a ball. It is more accessible than almost any other sport.

Also this whole American athletes are superior is a little strange from Spurs fans who have an almost entirely international team. Don't get me wrong I bleed red,white and blue but I'm also aware that there are great athletes around the world.

Good post.

[Genjuro]

If competition is a lot tougher then how the hell are the same countries winning the world cup since 1930?

I'm talking about competition among players. But now that you ask, of course there's much more competition team-wise in football. You have the USA winning almost every single Olympic basketball tournament. But also you have the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia or Spain being extremely dominating in the rest of the world for long stretches, which has never happened in football.

Football is the top sport in most countries around the world. Basketball is the top sport in Lithuania and... Philippines? Not sure if anywhere else.

[Genjuro]

yes, that´s why what Manu did in 2004 is more impressive than anything Messi did so far. although, things could change in a couple of weeks.

Those are summer tournaments played each four years. So Tim Duncan not winning the Olympic Gold makes him worse than Ginobili?

Please...

[Genjuro]

if you do the math you will find out that USA creates better athletes than the rest of the world and the fact that the preferred sports are Football and Basketball and not Soccer it's hard to take the claim that he is playing tougher competition than Manu seriously, tbh.

I agree USA probably creates better athletes than any other country, but hardly better than the rest of the world combined.

It's hard to compare since there's not one single sport really popular both in the USA and any other really big country with some sport tradition.

But there's one issue most people don't take into account: basketball physical requirements (particularly size) makes the competition much more narrow. The number of potential elite football players is incomparable larger than those for basketball.

By the way, I'm understanding the thread question as the best player and not literally the best athlete.

[Mikeanaro]

I'm talking about competition among players. But now that you ask, of course there's much more competition team-wise in football. You have the USA winning almost every single Olympic basketball tournament. But also you have the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia or Spain being extremely dominating in the rest of the world for long stretches, which has never happened in football.

Football is the top sport in most countries around the world. Basketball is the top sport in Lithuania and... Philippines? Not sure if anywhere else.
Competition among players, among teams is just the same thing, a team is made of players.
Is the top sport but only 8 out of 200 countries are good playing it, Argentina already won 2 world cups even if Messi wins right now (which I hope) he wont be doing something groundbreaking, Manu made history in Athens 2004 leading NT and beating USA that was never done before in Argieland, we already have lots of futbol players here so Manu did something different and won in Italy USA and his NT.

[Genjuro]

Competition among players, among teams is just the same thing, a team is made of players.
Is the top sport but only 8 out of 200 countries are good playing it, Argentina already won 2 world cups even if Messi wins right now (which I hope) he wont be doing something groundbreaking, Manu made history in Athens 2004 leading NT and beating USA that was never done before in Argieland, we already have lots of futbol players here so Manu did something different and won in Italy USA and his NT.

This is not about who's making something more original, but about who's better, isn't it?

And it's not only 8 countries. You can see in this World Cup the balance between teams. In basketball the really strong countries usually roll over their opponents.

[Mikeanaro]

This is not about who's making something more original, but about who's better, isn't it?

And it's not only 8 countries. You can see in this World Cup the balance between teams. In basketball the really strong countries usually roll over their opponents.
Is not about something more original, dude made history and you want to minimize it saying futbol is more popular, dude makes eurosteps, no look passes, dunks good for an old man, has a good 3, creates great plays, when the team runs out of ideas he is the only dude capable of create something new to make a diference, plays PG, sometimes uses his right (Messi cant 98% of the times), blocks and steals great, good defender and even makes nutmegs like nobody did, Messi is just a scorer he never makes that kind of stuff on the field, never scored a single goal in the WC 2010 how thats better than Manu?, Manu makes assists and every player on his team better Messi does it too but not at that level.
Only 8 countries and all playing like shit right now, there is no dominant country this tournament because all teams are so inconsistent.
I laugh my ass off when some idiots say Gay Allen is a future hall of famer but Manu is not a sure thing there.

[dunkman]

This isn't even a question. Messi is top 5 all time and ginobili is a 6th man of the year. Soccer is a world sport and in 10 years there will be 4 major leagues that matter plus hockey.

Not sure Messi is top 5 at this moment:

Pele has 2 Mundials, plus another one where was injured, 2 times South American champion with Santos
Maradona has 1 Mundial, one finals with an average team, made outsiders Napoli win two Scudettos
Zidane has 1 Mundial, one finals, euro champion with France, Juventus and Madrid
Beckenbauer has 1 Mundial, one finals, euro champion with Germany and 3 times in a row with Bayern
Di Stefano 5 times euro champion in a row with Madrid
Cruyff has one finals, 3 times euro champion in a row with Ajax

Messi is 3 times euro champion with the Barça, a fantastic player for sure. Top 10 IMO and will certainly advance further.

[leo_d]

Those are summer tournaments played each four years. So Tim Duncan not winning the Olympic Gold makes him worse than Ginobili?

Please...

That`s why olympics are so different from nba seasons and champions league in soccer, it´s win or die and there is no revenge the next year, or possiblity to make adjustments from game 1 to game 2 against the same opponent, and that`s the kind of achievement Messi doesn´t have (for now).

As i see it, the title of "greater athlete" is not just about statistics, but beeing able to deliver when the preassure is insane.

Defeating for the first time a USA team of nba players in 2002 and then winning the olympics in 2004 with a team with no nba players is legendary, and to me that gives the edge to Manu over Messi.

[Genjuro]

Is not about something more original, dude made history and you want to minimize it saying futbol is more popular, dude makes eurosteps, no look passes, dunks good for an old man, has a good 3, creates great plays, when the team runs out of ideas he is the only dude capable of create something new to make a diference, plays PG, sometimes uses his right (Messi cant 98% of the times), blocks and steals great, good defender and even makes nutmegs like nobody did, Messi is just a scorer he never makes that kind of stuff on the field, never scored a single goal in the WC 2010 how thats better than Manu?, Manu makes assists and every player on his team better Messi does it too but not at that level.
Only 8 countries and all playing like shit right now, there is no dominant country this tournament because all teams are so inconsistent.
I laugh my ass off when some idiots say Gay Allen is a future hall of famer but Manu is not a sure thing there.

Well you have a few points there:
- Ginobili certainly scores more frequently than Messi.
- Ginobili is getting to the basketball HoF and Messi not.
- Ginobili uses the eurostep more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more blocks than Messi.
- Ginobili dunks more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more 3s than Messi.

Hard to argue there.

[Genjuro]

That`s why olympics are so different from nba seasons and champions league in soccer, it´s win or die and there is no revenge the next year, or possiblity to make adjustments from game 1 to game 2 against the same opponent, and that`s the kind of achievement Messi doesn´t have (for now).

As i see it, the title of "greater athlete" is not just about statistics, but beeing able to deliver when the preassure is insane.

Defeating for the first time a USA team of nba players in 2002 and then winning the olympics in 2004 with a team with no nba players is legendary, and to me that gives the edge to Manu over Messi.

It's not that Argentina was the only team beating the USA in those years.

And I have to infer that you think Ginobili is better than Duncan.

[Mikeanaro]

Well you have a few points there:
- Ginobili certainly scores more frequently than Messi.
- Ginobili is getting to the basketball HoF and Messi not.
- Ginobili uses the eurostep more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more blocks than Messi.
- Ginobili dunks more often than Messi.
- Ginobili makes more 3s than Messi.

Hard to argue there.
Yeah, now tell me something equivalent in futbol that Messi does better than Big Nose.

[Genjuro]

Yeah, now tell me something equivalent in futbol that Messi does better than Big Nose.

Crappy shit such as being the greatest goaler of the modern era or the best dribbler in the world, while being also a great passer.

[Mikeanaro]

Crappy shit such as being the greatest goaler of the modern era or the best dribbler in the world, while being also a great passer in his own.
Greatest goaler when Spain league has just 3 good teams and 36 games in the tournament they dont play 82 games and the playoffs I would love to see Messi playing 100 games per season to see how athletic he is, best dribbler and great passer, 2 and a half reasons vs 10.

[leo_d]

Is the only one that defeat them twice, and the only one in history to defeat them in an elimination game in the olympics. Every player in the US team would have been starter in team Argentina, and no player of Argentina would have been selected to team USA. In fact they lose by 30 in the previous encounter.

this thread was not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but i´m pretty sure Ginobili can be considered the greatest argentinian athlete, and Duncan will not be considered the greatest american athlete.

To put things in perspective, what Manu did, is like if Messi was american, and ended up winning the WC against Brazil with a team full of players not playing any european league, it just can´t be done...


...but Manu did it.

[Relevancy]

Lmao are you fucking serious:lmao

Messi by miles

[100%duncan]

Just wait till Oscar pushes Messi's shit back to his hole. If the Args even get there.

Tee hee

[Genjuro]

Is the only one that defeat them twice, and the only one in history to defeat them in an elimination game in the olympics. Every player in the US team would have been starter in team Argentina, and no player of Argentina would have been selected to team USA. In fact they lose by 30 in the previous encounter.

this thread was not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but i´m pretty sure Ginobili can be considered the greatest argentinian athlete, and Duncan will not be considered the greatest american athlete.

To put things in perspective, what Manu did, is like if Messi was american, and ended up winning the WC against Brazil with a team full of players not playing any european league, it just can´t be done...


...but Manu did it.

It's summer competition, it's a US all-star squad that was beaten by Puerto Rico, Lithuania, demolished by Italy in preparation. It's the Nightmare Team. You can not put so much stock there, it's ridiculous. You can't value players for an 8-game tournament they play as many as twice in their prime. It's nonsense.

Of course this thread is not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but that reasoning leads to that kind of stupid outcome, like Ginobili being better than Duncan.

If we're reducing the discussion to Argentina, and we take the rest of the world out of the equation, even for comparision purposes, then it's a close call. Manu is hands down the best basketball player in the country, and Messi shares the top spot with Maradona (or he's second, whatever). But then again, football is like 10 times bigger there than basketball, so being a top-2 player in huge sport compared to being the top player in a small one is probably more valuable.

[Genjuro]

Greatest goaler when Spain league has just 3 good teams and 36 games in the tournament they dont play 82 games and the playoffs I would love to see Messi playing 100 games per season to see how athletic he is, best dribbler and great passer, 2 and a half reasons vs 10.

I'm lost here: you're joking, right? 2 and half reasons vs 10? How old are you?

Anyway, Messi has been four times the top goaler of the Champions League.

Football has not anything to do with basketball. That's why you won't see back-to-back games or games after just one day of rest. And yet, Messi plays every year north of 60 games, which is a huge amount for a football player.

[Mikeanaro]

I'm lost here: you're joking, right? 2 and half reasons vs 10? How old are you?

Anyway, Messi has been four times the top goaler of the Champions League.

Football has not anything to do with basketball. That's why you won't see back-to-back games or games after just one day of rest. And yet, Messi plays every year north of 60 games, which is a huge amount for a football player.
Four times top goaler and 0 goals in WC 2010 weird facts right?
Basketball is more physically exhausting that futbol, even fatsos play here some amateur without sweating for 90 minutes you dont have to run all the time and Barcelona is/was passing style ticky ticky he made his runs in the past, but for the last two years he has been more ecstatic and that Barcelona team was so good that with a couple of Real Madrid players won the last WC.
You are lost? 2 and a half reasons vs 10 plus what leo_d was saying.

[leo_d]

It's summer competition, it's a US all-star squad that was beaten by Puerto Rico, Lithuania, demolished by Italy in preparation. It's the Nightmare Team. You can not put so much stock there, it's ridiculous. You can't value players for an 8-game tournament they play as many as twice in their prime. It's nonsense.

Of course this thread is not about comparing Duncan to Ginobili, but that reasoning leads to that kind of stupid outcome, like Ginobili being better than Duncan.

If we're reducing the discussion to Argentina, and we take the rest of the world out of the equation, even for comparision purposes, then it's a close call. Manu is hands down the best basketball player in the country, and Messi shares the top spot with Maradona (or he's second, whatever). But then again, football is like 10 times bigger there than basketball, so being a top-2 player in huge sport compared to being the top player in a small one is probably more valuable.

I will try to explain myself better.

To me, being the "greatest" implies to do something that no one else could do. It takes some heroics to be the greatest. That´s why Maradona is still above Messi even if he didn´t win any champions leagues.

The fact that basketball is the third or fourth sport in Argentina only strongs Manu´s case, because is much harder to make a competitive team.

The US record in the basketball olympics is ridiculous. (in 16 editions 13 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronces), i can´t tell if that record is the most dominant of any country in a major sport, but it must be pretty close.

And also is not like Manu doesn´t have a pretty impressive CV full with long tournaments.

Manu and Maradona are not just numbers, they`ve got something else. Making a shitload of goals in a 2 team league doesn´t make you the greatest athlete of a country, beating other countries to a championship does.

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

I first learned who Messi was about a month ago..... :lol Futbol

[emanueldavidginobili]

You're asking whose the greater athlete? Manu is 6'6 and in his prime was crazy athletic

[Genjuro]

Four times top goaler and 0 goals in WC 2010 weird facts right?
Basketball is more physically exhausting that futbol, even fatsos play here some amateur without sweating for 90 minutes you dont have to run all the time and Barcelona is/was passing style ticky ticky he made his runs in the past, but for the last two years he has been more ecstatic and that Barcelona team was so good that with a couple of Real Madrid players won the last WC.
You are lost? 2 and a half reasons vs 10 plus what leo_d was saying.

Argentina's run in WC 2010 was 5 games deep. It was a crazy team coached by a crazy guy such as Maradona, and Messi was placed as a mid-fielder. You can't put so much stock on 5 games played by such a casual team, when these guys play hundreds of them along their careers. And yet, his current scoring record at the WCs is 5 goals in 12 games, which is pretty good. This is like if you throw Duncan's career to the waste because of the 2004 Olympic Games.

2 and a half reasons vs 10: Considering Ginobili is so tricky and such an alll-around player, you will find many more reasons for him than for Shaquille O'Neal. Idiotic propositions lead to idiotic outcome. If you're the best goaler, the best dribbler and a great passer, you're just the best offensive player in the world, period.

LOL at fatsos playing some amateur games. Fatsos have indeed played in the NBA. I have never seen one in elite football. You don't know what you're talking about saying that basketball is more physically exhausting that football. There's a reason why there are no back-to-back games or games after just one day of rest in football, the physical toll is too much, you can't take players out of the field at will, and they run a lot more than basketball players: http://www.runnersworld.com/fun/distance-run-per-game-in-various-sports

[Genjuro]

I will try to explain myself better.

To me, being the "greatest" implies to do something that no one else could do. It takes some heroics to be the greatest. That´s why Maradona is still above Messi even if he didn´t win any champions leagues.

The fact that basketball is the third or fourth sport in Argentina only strongs Manu´s case, because is much harder to make a competitive team.

The US record in the basketball olympics is ridiculous. (in 16 editions 13 golds, 1 silver and 2 bronces), i can´t tell if that record is the most dominant of any country in a major sport, but it must be pretty close.

And also is not like Manu doesn´t have a pretty impressive CV full with long tournaments.

Manu and Maradona are not just numbers, they`ve got something else. Making a shitload of goals in a 2 team league doesn´t make you the greatest athlete of a country, beating other countries to a championship does.

So Ginobili is greater than Larry Bird, right? After all, winning titles for the Celtics is nothing anybody else wouldn't do.

When you measure all-time greatness in one sport, you can't put so much stock on such a short event played every four years. If we were limiting the discussion to FIBA-born players, it would be debatable; but this is all-time around-the-world shit. Also, that US Team, besides playing like if it were pick-up games, wasn't even close to feature the best players from the country. You're giving top importance to a competition not even many of the best players attend. It's laughable.

Messi makes a shitload of goals in a 2-team league, but also in the Champions League: 4 times top scorer.

[Rapper]

In Argrntina, 90% people dont know basketball and no one will care about NBA.

NBA just belongs to American

[leo_d]

...
Messi makes a shitload of goals in a 2-team league, but also in the Champions League: 4 times top scorer.

And yet, that is not the most important soccer competition in the world, WC is.

Manu has rings and medals, the edge goes for him.

[Genjuro]

And yet, that is not the most important soccer competition in the world, WC is.
Yes, WC is. But when evaluating football players, the fact that WCs are 7-game competitions played every four years is taken into account. That's why Alfredo Di Stéfano is widely (almost unanimously) considered an all-time top-5 football player despite doing less than Messi on WCs.


Manu has rings and medals, the edge goes for him.
LOL, the edge. The edge goes for Horry over Duncan.

[leo_d]

Yes, WC is. But when evaluating football players, the fact that WCs are 7-game competitions played every four years is taken into account. That's why Alfredo Di Stéfano is widely (almost unanimously) considered an all-time top-5 football player despite doing less than Messi on WCs..

Pele never won a championship league, would you say Zidane was better than him.

[leo_d]

LOL, the edge. The edge goes for Horry over Duncan.

what???

you can try to mix Bird, Duncan and Horry in the discussion, but the reality is that if Messi fails to win the most important competiton of his sport, he will not be considered the best argentinian soccer player, much less the greater athlete, maybe the greatest barcelona player.

[Genjuro]

Pele never won a championship league, would you say Zidane was better than him.

Exactly my point. You have to evaluate them in their circumstances, to be able to read their achievements. Pele spent his whole prime in Brazil and it doesn't hurt his legacy one bit, since the Brazilian league was super strong back then, as they weren't coming in bunches to Europe like in the last three decades. And of course, his playing in the WCs is crucial to this historical stature.

Football is more complicated than basketball when evaluating all-time careers for the very top players: there's not a 60+-year-old NBA where pretty much every top player competes year after year (saving for the ABA days). In football the most important competition is played every four years and is only 7-games long at maximum, and the current format of the Champions League is relatively recent: before 1991 only the teams that had won their domestic league in the previous season took part. Not to mention that these championships are decided in do-or-die games, as oppossed to the 7-games series you see in the NBA that tend to secure the reward to the best teams.

All in all, you won't find any current ranking where Messi is not, at least, an all-time top-10 football player. And you won't find any single ranking where Ginobili is a top-50 basketball player. What else there is to discuss?

[Genjuro]

what???

you can try to mix Bird, Duncan and Horry in the discussion, but the reality is that if Messi fails to win the most important competiton of his sport, he will not be considered the best argentinian soccer player, much less the greater athlete, maybe the greatest barcelona player.

Ginobili is better than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and John Stockton, right? Heck, Belinelli is better than those three.

[leo_d]

Malone, Barkley, Bellinelli, who else?? for the record I get your point, but even if Manu may not be a top 50 player in his sport, his achievments, for now, are more impressive than Messi´s, and those achievments did have him as a center piece.

It´s like if Lebron keep puting monster numbers in the regular season but never won a title, he wouldn be considered the best player no matter the statistics.

Maradona never won a copa america, or a champions league, he doesn´t have any scoring record, not even in th 86 WC, but few people will not consider him the greatest athlete of Argentina. That is my point, to be the greatest you need to do impossible things, like winning a wc almost by yourself, or defeat the richest clubs in Italy with the Napoli.

And Manu also has done pretty legendary stuff.

Things will change if Messi wins 3 more games with the team he is playing.

[r0drig0lac]

Not sure Messi is top 5 at this moment:

Pele has 2 Mundials, plus another one where was injured, 2 times South American champion with Santos
Maradona has 1 Mundial, one finals with an average team, made outsiders Napoli win two Scudettos
Zidane has 1 Mundial, one finals, euro champion with France, Juventus and Madrid
Beckenbauer has 1 Mundial, one finals, euro champion with Germany and 3 times in a row with Bayern
Di Stefano 5 times euro champion in a row with Madrid
Cruyff has one finals, 3 times euro champion in a row with Ajax

Messi is 3 times euro champion with the Barça, a fantastic player for sure. Top 10 IMO and will certainly advance further.

Pele won three WC (in 62 was injured in the semifinals) and 2 world club (62 and 63) and he played Brazil 4 cups (58-62-66-70) the only one who did not win was when he was injured in the second game (66), all Brazilian players playing in our own country, where the world's best football was played.

[Genjuro]

Malone, Barkley, Bellinelli, who else?? for the record I get your point, but even if Manu may not be a top 50 player in his sport, his achievments, for now, are more impressive than Messi´s, and those achievments did have him as a center piece.

It´s like if Lebron keep puting monster numbers in the regular season but never won a title, he wouldn be considered the best player no matter the statistics.

Maradona never won a copa america, or a champions league, he doesn´t have any scoring record, not even in th 86 WC, but few people will not consider him the greatest athlete of Argentina. That is my point, to be the greatest you need to do impossible things, like winning a wc almost by yourself, or defeat the richest clubs in Italy with the Napoli.

And Manu also has done pretty legendary stuff.

Things will change if Messi wins 3 more games with the team he is playing.

As important and crucial as Manu was, Duncan was the centerpiece of those rings. The Olympic Games is the world's top FIBA competition but it's not the world's top basketball competition. LeBron plays in a yearly competition, unlike what happens with the WC. And do you really think Cruyff is not going to be considered anymore the best Dutch player ever if the Netherlands win the WC this year?

It doesn't matter that Maradona never won a Champions League, it also doesn't hurt him much. Of course not in Argentina, but also worldwide. Because people do take into account the circumstances and the fact that he played for Napoli.

Maradona is GOD is Argentina. It's not only how good he was (top-3 all-time at least). Messi can win three World Championships and still he would never reach Maradona's status in his home country. And it's not like Argentina had never won a World Championship before 1986 (just 8 years before), but beating England after the Malvinas war the way he did it in his way to the title, it's just impossible to match in the heart of that country.

Listen, many dudes make impossible things in marginal competitions. You have to put everything in perspective. Argentina winning an Olympic gold in basketball was amazing, Ginobili is a hero, and all that, but it doesn't put him anywhere near Messi when we talk about all-time around-the-world status.

[MeloHype]

485057669669978113

[littlecoyotecoin]

Let's see if they are pressuring to play Messi on a broken leg when he's 37.

[leo_d]

after 28 years of not even smelling the semifinals, I´m pretty sure that if Messi wins this cup in Brazil, he will be considered the greatest argentinian athlete.

and like you say, to put thing in perspective, if you compare Manu with other american players may not be that impressive, but when you compare with the status of argentinian basketball, is freaking unbelieveble.

Take into account that the best players of Argentina always tried to enter the nba, and they didn´t pass training camp, then comes this guy, who can jump and dunk like no one I´ve ever seen in Argentina, start beating Brazil like they haven´t done in decades, then beats for the first time in history a dream team and get´s one bad call away from being world champions, then joins the nba and actually plays meaningful minutes (not like Wolkowitzky or Pepe Sanches), then wins a nba championship, not being the most important player but an important one, then gets the olympic gold (that day Argentina won 2 olimpic golds, in soccer and in Basketball, after 50 years of not winning one in any discipline) defeating for the second time a dream team in the way, then wins the nba title and this time he is the most important piece, and then goes to win another 2 more rings with a team with no clearly franchise player and a tight budget.

Sorry, but Messi needs to do more than winning champions leagues with one of the two more expensive teams in the world to reach this kind of greatness.

[mrjap2x]

Is it true that if Manu doesn't play, his country men will get mad?

[leo_d]

only the ones that don´t know shit about pre and post Manu argentinian basketball.

[Genjuro]

after 28 years of not even smelling the semifinals, I´m pretty sure that if Messi wins this cup in Brazil, he will be considered the greatest argentinian athlete.

and like you say, to put thing in perspective, if you compare Manu with other american players may not be that impressive, but when you compare with the status of argentinian basketball, is freaking unbelieveble.

Take into account that the best players of Argentina always tried to enter the nba, and they didn´t pass training camp, then comes this guy, who can jump and dunk like no one I´ve ever seen in Argentina, start beating Brazil like they haven´t done in decades, then beats for the first time in history a dream team and get´s one bad call away from being world champions, then joins the nba and actually plays meaningful minutes (not like Wolkowitzky or Pepe Sanches), then wins a nba championship, not being the most important player but an important one, then gets the olympic gold (that day Argentina won 2 olimpic golds, in soccer and in Basketball, after 50 years of not winning one in any discipline) defeating for the second time a dream team in the way, then wins the nba title and this time he is the most important piece, and then goes to win another 2 more rings with a team with no clearly franchise player and a tight budget.

Sorry, but Messi needs to do more than winning champions leagues with one of the two more expensive teams in the world to reach this kind of greatness.

Ginobili was the leader, but he's wasn't alone in Argentina. Oberto, Scola, Nocioni, Sánchez, etc., it's an incredible generation for a country that, traditionally, hadn't been relevant in basketball for many years. Indeed IMO Argentina would've won that World Championship if he hadn't played the final (they were that good). He was a minus, playing so badly injured, but we all know him and how much of a fierce competitor he is.

Of course Ginobili is incomparable more meaningful to basketball in Argentina than Messi is to football. If that's the discussion, then we can agree.

But Manu himself sums it up better than anybody else in that tweet. After all, Messi is a four-time winner of the Ballon d'Or. Ginobili has never gone past the third all-NBA team.

[Kabals]

Sorry, but Messi needs to do more than winning champions leagues with one of the two more expensive teams in the world to reach this kind of greatness.

Champion's League is way harder to win than NBA, it's like having NBA with only 16 teams (= enough talent to have 16 stacked teams) and 2 games playoff format with point difference and only 1 game for the finals. In Champion's League modern era no team has ever repeated and the favorite rarely win it unlike in the NBA where the 7 game format advantages the better team. And you can see in this World Cup that there is no easy game even if one team is considered far stronger, most games are 1 goal difference only.

[leo_d]

titles is what makes an athlete the "greatest", not journalists opinions.

Manu has won everything that can be won in his sport, Messi didn´t (yet).

and of course Manu will say Messi is better, he is not an egocentric caracter like Maradona.

[Genjuro]

titles is what makes an athlete the "greatest", not journalists opinions.

Manu has won everything that can be won in his sport, Messi didn´t (yet).

and of course Manu will say Messi is better, he is not an egocentric caracter like Maradona.

And again, that's why Horry is greater than Duncan.

[Diego20]

Messi > Lebron so I don't think this threat makes any sense even tho I really like Manu.

[leo_d]

ok...

... but you know messi will never be considered the greatest argentinian athlete until he wins something with the national team, is a different type of competition the pressure is of an entire country and not just a city, and no one could be cosidered the greatest underperfoming in those conditions, they can give him all the ballons he wants, is just the way it is.

[32fastest]

I think what Ginobili has done is way more impressive but in Argentina it seems like he's less admired than messi. I vote Manu

[Genjuro]

ok...

... but you know messi will never be considered the greatest argentinian athlete until he wins something with the national team, is a different type of competition the pressure is of an entire country and not just a city, and no one could be cosidered the greatest underperfoming in those conditions, they can give him all the ballons he wants, is just the way it is.

People from Argentina won't. You're right there. Most of them don't really care about FC Barcelona or the Spurs. It's even worse for Messi: many people in Argentina hated him because he wasn't displaying with the NT the same wonders he was showing game after game in Europe. But we're talking about nationalism here, not sport analysis.

[xmas1997]

Messi is a big fish in a small pond when you compare Argentina to the rest of the world, or to a lesser extent to the USA or Europe. Thus Manu gets my vote easily.

[Genjuro]

Messi is a big fish in a small pond when you compare Argentina to the rest of the world, or to a lesser extent to the USA or Europe. Thus Manu gets my vote easily.

?????

[xmas1997]

Just saying if you poll just Argentinians then Messi is the big fish in Argentina, but Argentina is a small pond next to the rest of the world or even the USA or Europe.
Thus if you poll the USA or Europe, or the rest of the world, then I think Manu wins going away.
JMHO.

[Genjuro]

Just saying if you poll just Argentinians then Messi is the big fish in Argentina, but Argentina is a small pond next to the rest of the world or even the USA or Europe.
Thus if you poll the USA or Europe, or the rest of the world, then I think Manu wins going away.
JMHO.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Popularsports.PNG/1280px-Popularsports.PNG

[xmas1997]

Your point must be that since soccer is more popular around the world, then so it must be that Messi would be considered the greater athlete around the world?
I disagree with that premise, if that is indeed your premise.
One fact does not make another.

[ffadicted]

This thread (and everyone who voted for manu) is the stupidest thing I've ever seen lol

[xmas1997]

It is actually like comparing apples to oranges.

[TheGreatYacht]

Lionel

[TheGreatYacht]

Lionel
Messi

[xmas1997]

The topic is not "the most POPULAR Argentinian athlete", it is "the GREATER Argentinian athlete".
Basketball players in general are widely recognized as some of the greatest athletes in the world in all of sports.
This is why I dispute the claim.

[leo_d]

actually, Manu has really strong case to be the greatest argentinian athlete:

Spanish League / Italian League soccer = Regular season in the Nba and Euroleague
Maradona= 3
Messi= 6
Manu= 5 regular seasons and 1 euroleague

Champions league soccer = Nba championships
Maradona= 0
Messi= 3
Manu= 4

Copa America in soccer = Fiba Americas
Maradona= 0
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold

World Cup in soccer = Olympics / world cup
Maradona= 1 gold and 1 silver
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold and 1 silver

Messi has a lot of individuals records, but that is just not enough to make him the greatest.

[Kabals]

"Useless sh*t FIBA tournament" (according to fans blaming Tony and Manu for playing in FIBA) = Football World Cup ?

[turkish spurs fan]

sure manu

[Mikeanaro]

485057669669978113
Messi will say the same thing they are not ego divas.

[kuato]

probably because Manu plays against better Athletes.
Better athletes? it is a tottally different sport, how the hell can you say who is a better athlete?

[kuato]

actually, Manu has really strong case to be the greatest argentinian athlete:

Spanish League / Italian League soccer = Regular season in the Nba and Euroleague
Maradona= 3
Messi= 6
Manu= 5 regular seasons and 1 euroleague

Champions league soccer = Nba championships
Maradona= 0
Messi= 3
Manu= 4

Copa America in soccer = Fiba Americas
Maradona= 0
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold

World Cup in soccer = Olympics / world cup
Maradona= 1 gold and 1 silver
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold and 1 silver

Messi has a lot of individuals records, but that is just not enough to make him the greatest.
Now put what Messi have done in FOOTBALL to compare with Ginobili :P

[Mikeanaro]

Yes, WC is. But when evaluating football players, the fact that WCs are 7-game competitions played every four years is taken into account. That's why Alfredo Di Stéfano is widely (almost unanimously) considered an all-time top-5 football player despite doing less than Messi on WCs.


LOL, the edge. The edge goes for Horry over Duncan.
You already lost the discussion but keep adding dumb things around like Horry, Bird or futbol being the most popular sport since you are out of arguments the only thing you got is to just spin things.
100 games per season, 7 game playoffs are like 3 times euro futbol finals, back to back to back games in the lockout season and then play for the NT, maybe you are a philippine or something here in Argentina everybody plays 90 minutes without tears basketball is more demanding.
Manu is not prime Manu while Messi is 10 years younger so I would love to see Messi playing like Manu did 2 weeks ago against Miami at 37.
There are lots of boxers around the world too since you like to add to the discussion things that are not related, are all of them good and make the sport competitive? the heavyweights are ballerinas.
¨You can see in this World Cup the balance between teams¨ that shows how little you know about futbol.
¨Fatsos have indeed played in the NBA. I have never seen one in elite football¨
http://cms.442.haymarketnetwork.com/contentimages/blog/SerieAaaaargh/Ronaldinho1.jpghttps://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608040319893700836&pid=15.1&P=0http://images.sportinglife.com/07/03/330/CarlosTevez_203979.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/06/article-2621269-1D97D16600000578-821_634x449.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KMShMVeMo6Y/SSPuBZMmvGI/AAAAAAAABd4/Y7Hm489uaIY/s400/Maradona+86.jpghttp://pictures2.todocoleccion.net/tc/2012/06/24/32282048.jpg

[Genjuro]

actually, Manu has really strong case to be the greatest argentinian athlete:

Spanish League / Italian League soccer = Regular season in the Nba and Euroleague
Maradona= 3
Messi= 6
Manu= 5 regular seasons and 1 euroleague

Champions league soccer = Nba championships
Maradona= 0
Messi= 3
Manu= 4

Copa America in soccer = Fiba Americas
Maradona= 0
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold

World Cup in soccer = Olympics / world cup
Maradona= 1 gold and 1 silver
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold and 1 silver

Messi has a lot of individuals records, but that is just not enough to make him the greatest.

Spanish League / Italian League soccer = Regular season in the Nba and Euroleague
Maradona= 3
Messi= 6
Manu= 5 regular seasons and 1 euroleague
Bird= 6

Champions league soccer = Nba championships
Maradona= 0
Messi= 3
Manu= 4
Bird= 3

Copa America in soccer = Fiba Americas
Maradona= 0
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold
Bird= 0

World Cup in soccer = Olympics / world cup
Maradona= 1 gold and 1 silver
Messi= 0
Manu= 1 gold and 1 silver
Bird= 1 gold

Larry Bird has a lot of individual records, but that is just not enough to make him better than Ginobili

[Genjuro]

You already lost the discussion but keep adding dumb things around like Horry, Bird or futbol being the most popular sport since you are out of arguments the only thing you got is to just spin things.

I'm just using your logics and, you're dead right, the results are dumb.



100 games per season, 7 game playoffs are like 3 times euro futbol finals, back to back to back games in the lockout season and then play for the NT, maybe you are a philippine or something here in Argentina everybody plays 90 minutes without tears basketball is more demanding.

You run in a football game two to three times the distance you cover in a basketball game. The fact that you can play back to back to back games in basketball clearly tells you that it's easier. I have never ever seen back to back games in football. Not even when a game is cancelled and needs to be re-scheduled. It's way too exhausting.

Not to mention that Ginobili has almost always been a bench guy with reduced usage compared to other basketball stars.


Manu is not prime Manu while Messi is 10 years younger so I would love to see Messi playing like Manu did 2 weeks ago against Miami at 37.

Congratulations, you just have won the debate about who will be better at 37.


¨Fatsos have indeed played in the NBA. I have never seen one in elite football¨
http://cms.442.haymarketnetwork.com/contentimages/blog/SerieAaaaargh/Ronaldinho1.jpghttps://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608040319893700836&pid=15.1&P=0http://images.sportinglife.com/07/03/330/CarlosTevez_203979.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/06/article-2621269-1D97D16600000578-821_634x449.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KMShMVeMo6Y/SSPuBZMmvGI/AAAAAAAABd4/Y7Hm489uaIY/s400/Maradona+86.jpghttp://pictures2.todocoleccion.net/tc/2012/06/24/32282048.jpg

I was talking about real fatsos, like...

http://www.sportsnola.com/imagesnov/sports/hornets/tractor_traylor.jpg

Or

http://ballerball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/oliver-miller.jpeg

[leo_d]

You keep bringing Bird to the table, dude, it´s easy, if you don´t win the most important competition in your sport you are not the greatest, Jordan is the greatest an he won it all, Messi is two games away, but unless he proves that he can win something without Xavi and Iniesta he is not, no matter how many titles Bird has.

My guess is that logic takes you to places like "If Duncan never won a gold medal that makes him worst than Ginobili!!!" and that is not what I´m saying, what I´m saying is when you look for the "greatest" there are things that can not be underviewed, winning the WC in is one of them to soccer players, and at that level Manu has done more than Messi to be the greatest, he won everthing there is to win outside the well oiled machine that are the Spurs, Messi didn´t.

That is why I told you in a previous post that Manu can be the greatest argentinian athelete, but Duncan is not the greatest american athlete, even if Duncan is better than Manu.

[leo_d]

Let me put it this way: if Kevin Durant dropped 40 points a game his entire career getting regular seasons MVP´s every year, but failed to win a champinship, he would not be considered the greatest american athlete, no matter what the numbers says.

is just a sine qua non requirement.

The moment that Messi pass the WC requirement there is no discussion.

[Kabals]

By your logic, Ginobili is the greatest Spurs athlete as he is the only one to win it all.

I forgot Robinson who has 2 Olympics but only 2 title, so Manu is still the greatest.

[Genjuro]

Let me put it this way: if Kevin Durant dropped 40 points a game his entire career getting regular seasons MVP´s every year, but failed to win a champinship, he would not be considered the greatest american athlete, no matter what the numbers says.

is just a sine qua non requirement.

The moment that Messi pass the WC requirement there is no discussion.

So Ginobili would be greater than Durant, right?

Sorry if I look a bit lost but I'm learning on greatness on the fly with you.

[leo_d]

I´ll say that for american athletes the most important competition to win in basketball is the NBA, so the answer is no, Duncan gets the title, but if Duncan had same record that Jordan, I´ll go with the one winning international competition. And Jordan won one with out a Dream Team backing him up.

On the other hand, for the rest of the world, i´m pretty sure they value more an olympic gold that a NBA title, maybe because is so damn hard to beat USA in those.

[leo_d]

So Ginobili would be greater than Durant, right?

Sorry if I look a bit lost but I'm learning on greatness on the fly with you.

well, by your logic of taking winning out of the ecuation, then Malone is better than Duncan, i mean, at the end of the day, he still has almost 50% more points.

[Genjuro]

well, by your logic of taking winning out of the ecuation, then Malone is better than Duncan, i mean, at the end of the day, he still has almost 50% more points.

I'm not taking anything out of the equation, that's the key. Duncan and Malone are very comparable guys, both have long careers, both have been considered at some point to be very top players in the league, if not the best, both won two MVPs. So when you have comparable guys, then you can bring their victories to the conversation, and Duncan comes way ahead.

If you take only winning into the equation, then you will get dumb results such as Tyronne Lue being better than John Stockton.

But it only gets worse when you consider the fact that you play for the NBA title every single year enduring a long season, but you can play for the football WC only every four years in a seven-game tournament with four do-or-die games. Messi is indeed a winner in the yearly top competition.

You can't compare a winning second banana, as good and exciting as he is, to one of the all-time greatest football players. You just can't.

[leo_d]

actually, when you talk about the greatest you draw a line with winning the most important thing there is to win in the sport, and the talk about personal records, by that measure Tyronne Lue could never be considered the greatest, neither John Stockton or Karl Malone, but you don´t start with personal acomplishments, because they don´t mean anything without winning.

Messi can´t be in the discussion for beeing the greatest argentinian athlete, simply because he hasn´t pass the line that Maradona and Manu drawed.

Once he does that there can be a discussion. Winning with a disfuntional team in a 7 game competition is the most precious title a soccer player can aspire. Messi is capable of putting records with a billon dolar team, he needs to do more than that to catch Manu and Maradona.

[Genjuro]

actually, when you talk about the greatest you draw a line with winning the most important thing there is to win in the sport, and the talk about personal records, by that measure Tyronne Lue could never be considered the greatest, neither John Stockton or Karl Malone, but you don´t start with personal acomplishments, because they don´t mean anything without winning.

Messi can´t be in the discussion for beeing the greatest argentinian athlete, simply because he hasn´t pass the line that Maradona and Manu drawed.

Once he does that there can be a discussion. Winning with a disfuntional team in a 7 game competition is the most precious title a soccer player can aspire. Messi is capable of putting records with a billon dolar team, he needs to do more than that to catch Manu and Maradona.

You can only use that card with Maradona. Manu wasn't even his team's top player when he won his NBA rings. How can you enter a "greatest" discussion if you're not even the top player in your own team?

Before Nowitzki became the top player ever in Europe, the discussion was mainly about either Sabonis or Petrovic. None of them had won a NBA ring. Petrovic hadn't even won an Olympic Gold. Indeed Petrovic is widely considered the top player from the former Yugoslavia, and rightfully so. Not Kukoc (three times NBA champion), not Cosic (Olympic champion), not anybody else.

[xmas1997]

I think many of you are focusing on one word when there are three, "greatest", "Argentinian", and "athlete".
All three together change the discussion significantly.

[Kawhi]

I do believe Manu has more career points as well.:tu

[Mikeanaro]

I'm just using your logics and, you're dead right, the results are dumb.




You run in a football game two to three times the distance you cover in a basketball game. The fact that you can play back to back to back games in basketball clearly tells you that it's easier. I have never ever seen back to back games in football. Not even when a game is cancelled and needs to be re-scheduled. It's way too exhausting.

Not to mention that Ginobili has almost always been a bench guy with reduced usage compared to other basketball stars.



Congratulations, you just have won the debate about who will be better at 37.

[B]

I was talking about real fatsos, like...

http://www.sportsnola.com/imagesnov/sports/hornets/tractor_traylor.jpg

Or

http://ballerball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/oliver-miller.jpeg
Futbol players don´t run the whole field and its less exhausting than BB, those 2 babies you showed me are really fat but that doesnt make mine skinnier.
Another reason why soccer is more popular is because people see basketball as a tall people sport, since people is mostly short they simply watch futbol and everytime they see someone over 6´3¨ they say YOU SHOULD PLAY BB.
Even if Argentina wins which would be awesome Maradona already did it, the difference is Argentina is a futbol country and we always have great futbol teams, what Manu did as leo_d said is he won against Team Usa twice with a NT full of nobodies (how many of these dudes had a good NBA career?) while our futbol team is full of dudes playing in elite euro teams.
It was a bigger challenge, there is no futbol national team stacked as that USA BB team.
Maybe Malone was better athlete than Duncan yeah, but Duncan is the better player, same with Duracne that skinny bitch lives by the refs what a heliflopter queen I hate him and his fat mom he is a good shooter and thats it...Manu is the better player when the hell Durant played like Manu ´05?
Superstars padding stats are like garbage points they mean nothing.
Regarding Manu vs Messi athletism, Futbol players run, basketball players run and jump, Messi is not a good jumper he is like 5´7 and has barely made goals using his head.
Those fatty you showed to me were centers, thats like futbol goalkeepers
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-28XitdYxh70/UWx4iY_So_I/AAAAAAAABjc/YAokTdpYics/s1600/Jose+Luis+Chilavert+(1).jpghttp://www.afcliverpool.de/players/20092010_willis_paul.jpghttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41890000/jpg/_41890832_pressman203.jpghttp://img.uefa.com/imgml/TP/players/1/2011/324x324/46691.jpghttp://www.animaatjes.nl/voetbal-plaatjes/voetbal-plaatjes/jeroen-verhoeven/animaatjes-jeroen-verhoeven-61984.jpg
This is not a goalkeeper but too good to let it out this athletic thread
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608023509388823836&pid=15.1&P=0

[100%duncan]

I'm just using your logics and, you're dead right, the results are dumb.




You run in a football game two to three times the distance you cover in a basketball game. The fact that you can play back to back to back games in basketball clearly tells you that it's easier. I have never ever seen back to back games in football. Not even when a game is cancelled and needs to be re-scheduled. It's way too exhausting.

Not to mention that Ginobili has almost always been a bench guy with reduced usage compared to other basketball stars.



Congratulations, you just have won the debate about who will be better at 37.

[B]

I was talking about real fatsos, like...

http://www.sportsnola.com/imagesnov/sports/hornets/tractor_traylor.jpg

Or

http://ballerball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/oliver-miller.jpeg

:lol they dont run the whole court dumbass, a striker(like messi incase you didnt know) can sit on his ass when the ball is on the other side of the court. While bball players run the whole court every moment.

[JWest596]

Manu.......never heard of whatisname.

[Genjuro]

Futbol players don´t run the whole field and its less exhausting than BB, those 2 babies you showed me are really fat but that doesnt make mine skinnier.

Football players run two-to-three times the distance covered by NBA players: http://www.runnersworld.com/fun/distance-run-per-game-in-various-sports

There are never back-to-back games in football, because of how exhausting it is. In basketball you can see back-to-back-to-back games being played.

It would be nice for you to show me any evidence to support your statement, or at least a clue pointing that way.


Even if Argentina wins which would be awesome Maradona already did it, the difference is Argentina is a futbol country and we always have great futbol teams, what Manu did as leo_d said is he won against Team Usa twice with a NT full of nobodies (how many of these dudes had a good NBA career?) while our futbol team is full of dudes playing in elite euro teams.

Well, more guys from Argentina had a good NBA career than those from Puerto Rico or Lithuania that beat the USA in those very same Olympic Games. Indeed Italy demolished them in preparation with "superstars" Basile and Galanda as the go-to players, with no (past, present or future) NBA guy in that squad.


It was a bigger challenge, there is no futbol national team stacked as that USA BB team.

It was such a challenge that Yugoslavia and Spain beat the USA as well in 2002, and Puerto Rico and Lithuania in 2004.

What Argentina did was historic, but let's not pretend those were strong US Teams, because they weren't.


same with Duracne that skinny bitch lives by the refs what a heliflopter queen I hate him and his fat mom he is a good shooter and thats it...Manu is the better player when the hell Durant played like Manu ´05?

I can handle my own, thanks; you don't need to help me.


Regarding Manu vs Messi athletism, Futbol players run, basketball players run and jump, Messi is not a good jumper he is like 5´7 and has barely made goals using his head.

If it's only about athleticism, taking skills away, I admit I wouldn't know. Messi is definitely not the best athlete in his country. How good is Argentina in athletics? Perhaps you can find a better athlete than Ginobili in some random sport. I'm not sure that's what the thread's creator had in mind when he asked, though.


Those fatty you showed to me were centers, thats like futbol goalkeepers

Yeah... right. I'm giving you that basketball is more exhausting than playing goalkeeper.

[Genjuro]

:lol they dont run the whole court dumbass, a striker(like messi incase you didnt know) can sit on his ass when the ball is on the other side of the court. While bball players run the whole court every moment.

And that's why football players run two-to-three times more distance than basketball players per game: http://www.runnersworld.com/fun/distance-run-per-game-in-various-sports

[ddjeffries]

And by greater you mean what? Better at their sport? More popular?

[Mikeanaro]

Football players run two-to-three times the distance covered by NBA players: http://www.runnersworld.com/fun/distance-run-per-game-in-various-sports

There are never back-to-back games in football, because of how exhausting it is. In basketball you can see back-to-back-to-back games being played.

It would be nice for you to show me any evidence to support your statement, or at least a clue pointing that way.



Well, more guys from Argentina had a good NBA career than those from Puerto Rico or Lithuania that beat the USA in those very same Olympic Games. Indeed Italy demolished them in preparation with "superstars" Basile and Galanda as the go-to players, with no (past, present or future) NBA guy in that squad.



It was such a challenge that Yugoslavia and Spain beat the USA as well in 2002, and Puerto Rico and Lithuania in 2004.

What Argentina did was historic, but let's not pretend those were strong US Teams, because they weren't.



I can handle my own, thanks; you don't need to help me.



If it's only about athleticism, taking skills away, I admit I wouldn't know. Messi is definitely not the best athlete in his country. How good is Argentina in athletics? Perhaps you can find a better athlete than Ginobili in some random sport. I'm not sure that's what the thread's creator had in mind when he asked, though.



Yeah... right. I'm giving you that basketball is more exhausting than playing goalkeeper.
Nonsense, thats like saying you are better athlete because you play futbol than some dude doing nonstop pushups for 90 minutes, distance doesnt mean squat.
Weak argument, our argentinian guys are far away from those in Team Usa, and way below than any argentinian national squad, you cant reverse that.
It doesnt matter if is strong or not they did it, who else? always trying to find shit around Manu, MESSI SCORELESS IN 2010 WITH A STACKED TEAM!
You can´t handle your own since you think a manufactured star is better than a player that won everywhere lol comparing Manu to that ethiopian, shame on you.
Got to go cant keep writing right now.

[DWizz007]

I agree. Messi is on Barcelona a club team with large deep pockets to spend on superstars. The Argentinian national team is no push over either. He has some of the worlds best play makers at every position surrounding him at all times on the pitch. Ginobili on the other hand is limited on his NBA team and National team. Both teams which have won it all against "greater" competition. Ex: Miami Heat and Team USA.

[DWizz007]

Manu and is not even close.
How so?

[Genjuro]

I agree. Messi is on Barcelona a club team with large deep pockets to spend on superstars. The Argentinian national team is no push over either. He has some of the worlds best play makers at every position surrounding him at all times on the pitch. Ginobili on the other hand is limited on his NBA team and National team. Both teams which have won it all against "greater" competition. Ex: Miami Heat and Team USA.

Yep, a 54-wins team from the Leastern Conference and the guys falling by 17 points to an Italian squad whose players have never spent one single second on a NBA game, that's the "greater" competition you're talking about?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S0i5AJXlko

[Genjuro]

Nonsense, thats like saying you are better athlete because you play futbol than some dude doing nonstop pushups for 90 minutes, distance doesnt mean squat.
Weak argument, our argentinian guys are far away from those in Team Usa, and way below than any argentinian national squad, you cant reverse that.
It doesnt matter if is strong or not they did it, who else? always trying to find shit around Manu, MESSI SCORELESS IN 2010 WITH A STACKED TEAM!
You can´t handle your own since you think a manufactured star is better than a player that won everywhere lol comparing Manu to that ethiopian, shame on you.
Got to go cant keep writing right now.

Exacty what I thought: no evidence, no clue, no reasoning to support your statements. Football is more exhausting, which doesn't mean football players are better athletes than basketball ones. Actually it's hard to compare because the required athleticism is different in those sports.

That USA Team was very talented, but as a team they were crap, which is the reason why they lost so many games.

I'm not trying to find shit about Manu. He's currently my favourite player from any sport, the Spurs is currently my favourite team from any sport and the 2002-2004 Argentina basketball NT is my all-time favourite NT from any sport. Let's say idolizing is not my thing. The real Manu is a good and exciting enough player to enjoy and root for.

The fact that Messi went scoreless in 5 games during the summer of 2010 while playing mid-fielder is not so dramatic to write the whole sentence in capitals.

[leo_d]

You can only use that card with Maradona. Manu wasn't even his team's top player when he won his NBA rings. How can you enter a "greatest" discussion if you're not even the top player in your own team?


Well, beeing the MVP of the team, to me, is another requirement to be the greatest, along with prolongued success over the years and winning the most important title in the sport.

I could tell you that Manu could have been easily considered the top player in the 2005 playoff run, but for a not american player, the hardest thing you can do is to beat team USA and win the olympics (is different for american players, because the hardest thing that they can do is to win a nba championship, they never will have to go trough an All Star Team to win a golden medal), and Manu was the mvp in 2004, dropping 27 points against Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson, Lebron James, Richard Jefferson, Stephon Marbury, Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony, Carlos Boozer, Lamar Odom, Emeka Okafor y Dwyane Wade (no matter what you say, that is a hell of team, and any team in the world would have change any of his players for one of them).

Messi pass two of the requirements, buy hey, if you do not agree, please tell me what is your criteria to consider someone the greatest.

[DAF86]

Your point must be that since soccer is more popular around the world, then so it must be that Messi would be considered the greater athlete around the world?
I disagree with that premise, if that is indeed your premise.
One fact does not make another.

How on Earth the best player of the most popular sport wouldn't be considered the greater athlete?

[Genjuro]

Well, beeing the MVP of the team, to me, is another requirement to be the greatest, along with prolongued success over the years and winning the most important title in the sport.

I could tell you that Manu could have been easily considered the top player in the 2005 playoff run, but for a not american player, the hardest thing you can do is to beat team USA and win the olympics (is different for american players, because the hardest thing that they can do is to win a nba championship, they never will have to go trough an All Star Team to win a golden medal), and Manu was the mvp in 2004, dropping 27 points against Tim Duncan, Allen Iverson, Lebron James, Richard Jefferson, Stephon Marbury, Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony, Carlos Boozer, Lamar Odom, Emeka Okafor y Dwyane Wade (no matter what you say, that is a hell of team, and any team in the world would have change any of his players for one of them).

Messi pass two of the requirements, buy hey, if you do not agree, please tell me what is your criteria to consider someone the greatest.

Manu was amazing in 2005, but Tim Duncan was the real centerpiece of that team. Everything is built from him. That's why Tim Duncan is now widely considered a top-10 all-time player and some people still question whether Ginobili should be HoF (not me, by the way).

You keep bringing the Olympic heroics, but as exciting as that was, a competition that isn't even played by many of the greatest players (because they just don't care enough) can't be weighted so much when discussing truly all-time greatness. Plus, it suffers the same downside as football WC, meaning a tournament only every four years and just a handful of games long.

My criteria to consider someone the greatest is to be the best possible player at whatever he does (of course, you have to weight the importance and competition of every sport; basketball and football are popular enough around the world), and let the titles call the relatively close cases. Of course truly great players tend to win. Messi himself has won three Champions Leagues, which is the very top club competition in the world.

[leo_d]

So Di Stefano is better than Messi, Pele and Maradona, I mean, he was the best possible player at what he does, and as a close case his 5 champions leagues give him the edge. He never won a WC tough, but that´s just a 7 game competition that truly greatest athletes don´t take really serious.

[Mel_13]

slomo

How about moving this thread to the soccer forum or the international forum? Hell, the Pistons forum is a quiet place.

[Mikeanaro]

slomo

How about moving this thread to the soccer forum or the international forum? Hell, the Pistons forum is a quiet place.
How about moving you out of this place? this is the offseason there is no much to talk about.

[Mikeanaro]

Exacty what I thought: no evidence, no clue, no reasoning to support your statements. Football is more exhausting, which doesn't mean football players are better athletes than basketball ones. Actually it's hard to compare because the required athleticism is different in those sports.

That USA Team was very talented, but as a team they were crap, which is the reason why they lost so many games.

I'm not trying to find shit about Manu. He's currently my favourite player from any sport, the Spurs is currently my favourite team from any sport and the 2002-2004 Argentina basketball NT is my all-time favourite NT from any sport. Let's say idolizing is not my thing. The real Manu is a good and exciting enough player to enjoy and root for.

The fact that Messi went scoreless in 5 games during the summer of 2010 while playing mid-fielder is not so dramatic to write the whole sentence in capitals.
Right now even if Lion-el wins all the teams were pure crap, Netherlands winning against Costa Rica by penalties, and Brazil won against Chile doing the same, all other games were 1-0 because of that lame defensive scheme with 8 guys hugging in the goal field, very boring World Cup.

[Genjuro]

So Di Stefano is better than Messi, Pele and Maradona, I mean, he was the best possible player at what he does, and as a close case his 5 champions leagues give him the edge. He never won a WC tough, but that´s just a 7 game competition that truly greatest athletes don´t take really serious.

Honestly, that's a pathetic try to put words in my mouth that I've never said. I was talking about Olympic Games in basketball and many players not caring enough to compete.

As for Di Stefano, he's in that all-time top level. He's reportedly comparable to Pele, Maradona and Cruyff, and there's a reason Cruyff and Di Stefano are considered top-5 all-time players despite never winning a WC, but it's Pele and Maradona are the ones put in the all-time top two positions. As I've said, the titles call the relatively close cases.

[Gervin44Silas13]

MESSI HASNT WON SHIT!!!! MANU HANDS DOWN>>>>BOW TO MANU!!!!!

[leo_d]

R.I.P. Di Stefano

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

:lol they dont run the whole court dumbass, a striker(like messi incase you didnt know) can sit on his ass when the ball is on the other side of the court. While bball players run the whole court every moment.

The most fit guys on the pitch are holding midfielders and wing defenders (if they are the type that go forward like Roberto Carlos). Strikers for 80% of the match play only one side of the field. Midfielders and Wing defenders play both thirds of the pitch.

When coming to accolades, Messi will possibly trump Manu. Both there is no way in hell is he more athletic than Manu. Manu is in the 99.9% percentile of the populous when it comes to pure athleticism. Messi is probably in the 85%. What Messi has is just excellent ball control and like Zidane, and like him he isn't the most athletic guy on the pitch most days. There are a lot of futbol players even today that are more athletic than Messi.

[doobs]

Manu is easily the better athlete. Messi will end up being the more accomplished and dominant sportsman. And since Argentina is more of a soccer country, Messi has a greater impact in his country and is likely more of an icon. But soccer sucks balls.

[lefty]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Pix/pictures/2011/6/21/1308666680997/The-Hand-of-God-007.jpg


http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1328630/maradona-goal-o.gif

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1328630/maradona-goal-o.gif

England was the #1 defense in the world at the time. That is what makes this goal by Maradona so great.

I really don't look at Club stats too much b/c its easy to score goals when your Club is one of the biggest in the world and you have a top 5 player or two in the world starting at each position.

Messi just had his worse season in 6 years last year and that is directly due to Xavi and Iniesta not being the players they were 3-4 years ago. That's why I will consider Maradona and Pele the greatest goal scorers ever is b/c they had the ability to take on 3-4 guys and score goals perpetually. Messi and the likes of Ronaldo does this once in a blue moon, but never against the best defenses in the World.

Messi is a great footballer but his stats are way overrated considering the talent that he had played with at Barca. Basically it would have the same as Lebron (SF), Duncan (PF), Manu (SG), Paul (PG), and Gasol (C) played on the same team since 2005. That team would rival the 70's Nuggets in PPG.

[Brazil]

How on Earth the best player of the most popular sport wouldn't be considered the greater athlete?

:lol I truly believe dude is mentally challenged

[Brazil]

:lol just saw the result of the poll
:lol ST

[rjv]

maradona

[leo_d]

:lol I truly believe dude is mentally challenged

of course you truly do, i´ll never expect you to relate greatness with winning, that would just complicate things.

[Brazil]

of course you truly do, i´ll never expect you to relate greatness with winning, that would just complicate things.

what ?

who the fuck are you ?

[RD2191]

what ?

who the fuck are you ?
:lol

[leo_d]

im nobody

i just would like to know what kind of information do you have to make impossible to think that Manu is greater than Messi, unless you tell me that for French people, prizes given by France Football are more important than World Cups.

[xmas1997]

The confusion here centers around which is the "greater Argentinian Athlete" and not which is greater in Argentina.
"Athlete" is the operative word here IMHO.
And most people will agree that basketball players are the greatest athletes in the world.
So in that regard it would have to be Manu.
Yet as far as being the "greatest" "player" in "Argentina, then it would be Messi, he is far more famous.
Does any of this make sense now?

[leo_d]

i don´t think the word athlete just refers to athletical capabilities, if that´s case i´m pretty sure neither Manu or Messi can be considered the greatest argentinian athlete. And also I don´t think is just what are they capable of doing in their sport, but when are they capable of doing it, and that is where Manu has proved a lot more than Messi so far.

[Brazil]

im nobody

i just would like to know what kind of information do you have to make impossible to think that Manu is greater than Messi, unless you tell me that for French people, prizes given by France Football are more important than World Cups.

Hum lets start with Messi is since several years the best player of the most popular sport in the world. Plus He is carrying a rather average team to a semi final of a World Cup and maybe more.

manu has never been the best bb player of a popular sport like bb. Manu greater than Messi It's like saying Parker is greater than Platini :lol

im not sure what you are debating here.

[leo_d]

If Parker would had won an olympic gold against a Dream team, added to his FMVP, i think it´s a much stronger case against Platini than Manu against Messi.

Probably not in terms of popularity tough.

[itsamanuthree]

You have a point, tho is not so straightforward as you put it IMO, but I'm not joining the debate anyway, who's better. This sentence, still, is just wrong, I don't know if you follow football and how much, but it's simply not true:


Messi and the likes of Ronaldo does this once in a blue moon, but never against the best defenses in the World.

Messi has done it againt the best defenses in the world. And so has Ronaldo, for that matter.

I not only think its unfair to compare Manu and Messi, I also think the comparison between Messi and Maradona is unfair, and even the comparison between Pele and Maradona. The three of them played in different eras, meaning the strategies defenses use to stop this opposition best players have greatly evolved. There's a lot more pressing now, much less space to play, much more physical players, and without space, Messi has shown he is the best. And that doesn't mean Maradona or Pele or Garrincha or whoever were bleufs (blefs? bluefs? don't know how to spell it), or worse than Messi, it means they played in different contexts, that's it. Decades ago you didn't have what you see today, 11-men defenses with a well oiled pressing system that beggins when the team with possession of the ball reaches the half of the field.

And they played in different positions as well, Maradona contributed much more to the midefield, tho Messi is no striker either. Anyway, different.

And accolades don't tell the whole story for one player, much less in football, where the are another 10 players in the team. You can't talk about Football or even BB players like you would about Tennis or Golf players and their trophies.

[xmas1997]

It is like trying to compare apples with oranges IMHO.

[Brazil]

If Parker would had won an olympic gold against a Dream team, added to his FMVP, i think it´s a much stronger case against Platini than Manu against Messi.

Probably not in terms of popularity tough.

Does not make sense at all buddy

Messi is in discussion with pele maradona cruyf Garrincha etc...in the most popular sport on earth. Manu is nowhere close to be in discussion with MJ, Russel, Magic, Duncan....

Again your logic is pretty fucked up :lol

[Obstructed_View]

Lots of people confusing popularity with athleticism.

[Pocho La Pantera]

Does not make sense at all buddy

Messi is in discussion with pele maradona cruyf Garrincha etc...in the most popular sport on earth. Manu is nowhere close to be in discussion with MJ, Russel, Magic, Duncan....

Again your logic is pretty fucked up :lolPlease don´t dare us:downspin:

[Brazil]

Please don´t dare us:downspin:

:lol

[Genjuro]

Lots of people confusing popularity with athleticism.

And lots of people can't read beyond the literal meaning. I don't really think the thread's creator meant to ask who's more athletic, but who's better at his own sport.

[Obstructed_View]

And lots of people can't read beyond the literal meaning. I don't really think the thread's creator meant to ask who's more athletic, but who's better at his own sport.

Neither of which has anything to do with the popularity of soccer.

[Mikeanaro]

And lots of people can't read beyond the literal meaning. I don't really think the thread's creator meant to ask who's more athletic, but who's better at his own sport.
Come on man, poll says better argentinian athlete and thats it, this is no code davinci, any other meaning is pure speculation.
Thats like putting some Jordan vs Kobe debate and someone saying WELL KOBE IS A RAPIST SO HE CANT BE BETTER THAN MJ IF SOME PEOPLE CANT READ BEYOND THE LITERAL MEANING OF BETTER IS NOT MY FAULT.

[BacktoBasics]

Come on man, poll says better argentinian athlete and thats it, this is no code davinci, any other meaning is pure speculation.
Thats like putting some Jordan vs Kobe debate and someone saying WELL KOBE IS A RAPIST SO HE CANT BE BETTER THAN MJ IF SOME PEOPLE CANT READ BEYOND THE LITERAL MEANING OF BETTER IS NOT MY FAULT.
Bottom line for people like you is that the entire world needs to be laid out in black and white as a result of your inability to think beyond the obvious.

[xmas1997]

As the sentence is constructed, "greater" and "Argentinian" are adjectives of the noun "athlete".
What's to be confused about that?

[Genjuro]

According to the Merriam-Webster, Athlete: a person who is trained in or good at sports, games, or exercises that require physical skill and strength

So I think I was wrong about the literal meaning. I understand it's indeed the better player rather than the more athletic one.

By the way, somebody was saying there were no good teams at this World Championship...

[xmas1997]

According to the Merriam-Webster, Athlete: a person who is trained in or good at sports, games, or exercises that require physical skill and strength

So I think I was wrong about the literal meaning. I understand it's indeed the better player rather than the more athletic one.

By the way, somebody was saying there were no good teams at this World Championship...


Okay, if the sentence wasn't constructed as you intended then I agree with you.

[Mikeanaro]

According to the Merriam-Webster, Athlete: a person who is trained in or good at sports, games, or exercises that require physical skill and strength

So I think I was wrong about the literal meaning. I understand it's indeed the better player rather than the more athletic one.

By the way, somebody was saying there were no good teams at this World Championship...
Brazil without Neymar was dead and then the second best player got bad news his grandpa died the whole team was a mess it happened to Argentina when they kicked Maradroga out for doping they lost to Romania.
Of course Germany is not Romania, but they won Algeria 2-1 and then France 1-0 so your ¨competitive¨ statement is not so accurate.
A muscular big man beating with a baseball bat some dude laying on the floor with one leg is not what I call competitive, they knew Brazil without Neymar was cake.

[Genjuro]

Brazil without Neymar was dead and then the second best player got bad news his grandpa died the whole team was a mess it happened to Argentina when they kicked Maradroga out for doping they lost to Romania.
Of course Germany is not Romania, but they won Algeria 2-1 and then France 1-0 so your ¨competitive¨ statement is not so accurate.
A muscular big man beating with a baseball bat some dude laying on the floor with one leg is not what I call competitive, they knew Brazil without Neymar was cake.

In most WCs, the champion gets the title winning most elimination games for just one goal. Since there are QFs:
- 2010: Spain wins with a quadruple 1-0.
- 2006: Italy only wins clearly against Ukraine (3-0), could only score once against Australia, went to the overtime against Germany and won the final in the penalties.
- 2002: Brazil won 2-0 over Belgium and Germany in the final, by one goal against England and Turkey.
- 1998: France only wins clearly in the final against Brazil (3-0); overtime against Paraguay, penalties against Italy and just by one goal against Croatia.
- 1994: Brazil wins by one goal against USA, Netherlands, Sweden and over Italy in the penalties.
- 1990: Germany beat by one goal Netherlands, Czechoslovakia and Argentina in the final, went to the penalties against England.
- 1986: Argentina won by one goal over Uruguay, England and Germany in the final, improving to 2-0 against Belgium.

I know Brazil was severely decimated, but it's a country deep enough in football talent to have managed better. And still, it really doesn't matter, it's never easy to get the title.

[jhfenton]

:lol just saw the result of the poll
:lol ST

I agree. I hadn't been back in this thread since early on when I voted. At that point Messi was sensibly ahead. The results now are ridiculous. I love Manu, but come on!

[JohnnyMax]

Greater American athlete: Babe Ruth or Matt Bonner

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Manu took an entire sport to a nation and created a basketball phenomena, taking that sport to heights never witnessed before in that country. Soccer was always the sport of choice there, and Messi, although amazing in the sport, is another in a long line of Argentinian soccer greats.

Manu gets the nod in my book.

[Old School 44]

It really is left to interpretation of the op. In the title it has "Greater Argentinian Athlete" in the poll it has "Better Argentinian Athlete". What do "better" and " greater" mean? And does the op mean in respect to his sport compared to others in the sport? If it's just the "greater/ better athlete" it's Manu. Just put them in most other team sports other than their own. Who would you put your money on?

[hyhy]

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/07/lionel_messi_2014_world_cup_the_world_s_best_playe r_has_figured_out_how.html

Does this help messi or the other way round?

[Genjuro]

Manu took an entire sport to a nation and created a basketball phenomena, taking that sport to heights never witnessed before in that country. Soccer was always the sport of choice there, and Messi, although amazing in the sport, is another in a long line of Argentinian soccer greats.

Manu gets the nod in my book.

So Manu is greater than Duncan or LeBron?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

So Manu is greater than Duncan or LeBron?

I didn't see them on the poll options.

[Genjuro]

It really is left to interpretation of the op. In the title it has "Greater Argentinian Athlete" in the poll it has "Better Argentinian Athlete". What do "better" and " greater" mean? And does the op mean in respect to his sport compared to others in the sport? If it's just the "greater/ better athlete" it's Manu. Just put them in most other team sports other than their own. Who would you put your money on?

Athlete: a person who is trained in or good at sports, games, or exercises that require physical skill and strength (Merriam-Webster)

Given that definition, why is Manu the "better athlete"?

And why do you have to put them in other team sports? It doesn't make sense to me: these guys are in this poll for what they've done at their own sport.

[Genjuro]

I didn't see them on the poll options.

I'm just asking.

[Old School 44]

Athlete: a person who is trained in or good at sports, games, or exercises that require physical skill and strength (Merriam-Webster)

Given that definition, why is Manu the "better athlete"?

And why do you have to put them in other team sports? It doesn't make sense to me: these guys are in this poll for what they've done at their own sport.Again it's interpretation of the ops question. No where in the subject or poll does it mention the sports they play. It just ask who's the better/greater athlete. None of us would know for sure, but IMO it's Manu.

[spurraider21]

Does not make sense at all buddy

Messi is in discussion with pele maradona cruyf Garrincha etc...in the most popular sport on earth. Manu is nowhere close to be in discussion with MJ, Russel, Magic, Duncan....
yep

[gilmor]

Maradona.. That's the TRUTH

[BanditHiro]

Messi has a chance if he beats Germany...but he has to beat Germany none of this 1-0 bullshit that they have been escaping with.

[Mikeanaro]

Manu took an entire sport to a nation and created a basketball phenomena, taking that sport to heights never witnessed before in that country. Soccer was always the sport of choice there, and Messi, although amazing in the sport, is another in a long line of Argentinian soccer greats.

Manu gets the nod in my book.
This. And for the record yesterday Messi spent the whole game walking he was very unathletic...

[Mikeanaro]

So Manu is greater than Duncan or LeBron?
Greater than Duncan and Lebron together.

[Obstructed_View]

Manu can kick a penalty shot. I bet Messi can't dunk.

[The Reckoning]

shear athleticism it's manu. skill, fit for sport, talent, etc etc messi

[gilmor]

World Cup >>> NBA

[SpursOwn]

:rollin

[Mikeanaro]

Messi walked the whole game, thats athletic? there was no tomorrow but he did his treadmill routine... chickenshitter :toast

[TheGreatYacht]

Messi. No doubt

[RD2191]

:lmao

[Johnny RIngo]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vyF9UC8GScc/U4qZCTQfStI/AAAAAAAAHKI/S3a8mistZ4g/s1600/manu.gif

http://i.minus.com/ibqYBtAK7T4IBg.gif

[ViceCity84]

It's Manu.I have officially kicked my ticket.

[BatManu20]

Still Messi

[RD2191]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vyF9UC8GScc/U4qZCTQfStI/AAAAAAAAHKI/S3a8mistZ4g/s1600/manu.gif

http://i.minus.com/ibqYBtAK7T4IBg.gif
Ringo for the win.