Gaza Withdrawal: Peace? Or A Victory for the Infada?

[Nbadan]

Gaza pullout resumes after violent clashes
By KRISTEN STEVENS
Associated Press Writer


GADID, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Israeli troops pushed through a barricade of flaming cars in this small settlement Friday, a day after youths holed up on a synagogue rooftop pelted soldiers with acid, oil and sand in the most violent protest against Israel's Gaza pullout.

The mission to clear out Gadid followed daylong clashes at two centers of hardcore resistance - synagogues at Neve Dekalim and Kfar Darom.

Some 14,000 soldiers have carried out Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plan to cede Gaza to the Palestinians. At the beginning of the third day of forcible evacuations Friday, all but five of the 21 Gaza settlements stood empty.

About 2,000 forces were participating in Friday's evacuation of Gadid, where a few holdout families, along with about 60 extremist "reinforcements" who came from outside Gaza to resist, remained.

In what has become a familiar scene this week, settlers set two cars and wooden planks on fire to block the arriving soldiers. A military bulldozer quickly cleared a path. The forces halted briefly when they encountered two more flaming roadblocks, which sent a thick plume of black smoke in the air, then spread out through town.

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/X/XOB10208182223-big.jpg

Most of the outsiders were holed up in the settlement's synagogue, where they gathered for morning prayers. Several young protesters stood on the roof of an abandoned house, and two weeping families hugged each other outside their neighboring homes. Police said they planned to begin taking away protesters later in the morning after prayers ended.

A man with a long grey beard, identifying himself only as Itzik, said he had come to Gadid with his wife and four children from the northern city of Haifa in a show of unity with the settlers. "I feel only sadness," he said.

The government began the forcible removal of Gaza's settlers on Wednesday after a two-day grace period expired. While tears and emotion characterized the first day of the operation, the second day turned violent.

On Thursday, dozens of protesters at the hardline settlement Kfar Darom barricaded themselves behind razor wire on the synagogue roof, at first singing and waving flags, then attacking soldiers below with caustic liquids and objects, including paint-filled lightbulbs.

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/A/AXLP10908182240-medium.jpg

Stunned police and soldiers, shaking in confusion, ripped off their helmets and clothes after being splashed by what police said was acid. Comrades quickly poured water on their heads and bodies. Some of the men gasped for air, and one sat on the floor, seeming disoriented.

To break the siege, army cranes lowered metal cages filled with helmeted troops onto the roof, as cannons sprayed protesters with blasts of water. Other troops carrying wire cutters climbed ladders slick with oil. Then the troops removed the protesters one by one.

http://hosted.ap.org/photos/X/XEM10208190036-medium.jpg

At Neve Dekalim, troops wrestled for hours against some 1,500 extremists making their last stand inside Gaza's largest settlement. Protesters lay on the synagogue floor with their arms linked, kicking against the Israeli forces while supporters held their shoulders in a tug-of-war.

After breaking the human chain, troops dragged protesters out of the synagogue, holding them by their arms and legs as they twisted and squirmed. Other protesters chanted "blasphemy, blasphemy."

Most of the unrest has come from young settler activists from the West Bank who infiltrated Gaza in recent weeks to resist the evacuations.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the attacks on troops in Kfar Darom infuriated him and said the rioters would be prosecuted. Investigators would also check "who sent them (the rioters) and who incited them," he told the Haaretz daily.

Sharon said he was saddened when watching the evacuation of Kfar Darom on television. "But in the evening, when I saw the tossing of those bottles of poisonous substances, or harmful substances, and the injury to ... soldiers and police, my mood altered and the pain turned to rage," he said.

Some Israelis were offended that the extremists chose houses of worship for their last stand against the Israeli military. However, experts on Judaism say it's not necessarily taboo for a synagogue to be used as a place of refuge.

Several hundred protesters slowed traffic at the entrance to Jerusalem late Thursday, but widespread disruptions throughout the country, pledged by extremists, did not materialize.

For years, 8,500 Israelis lived among Gaza's 1.3 million Palestinians in perpetual tension and frequently lethal violence. Sharon said the 38-year occupation of Gaza could no longer be sustained.

The standoff at the synagogues was a symbolic climax to the withdrawal operation that started Monday, since many of the settlers are Orthodox Jews who believe Gaza is part of the biblical birthright of the Jewish people.

My San Antonio (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=TXSAE&SECTION=INTERNATIONAL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Is this a reconciliatory move by the Israelis and Sharon toward a future peace with the Palestinians and a proposed Palestinian state, or a victory for the Infada? Are the Israelis appeasing terrorists? and what of the West Bank and Jerusalem? What say you?

[David Bowie]

I'm surprised nobody has brought this topic up before. Anyhow, I'm not going to pretend to know all the facts about the Israeli/Palistinian conflict. However, I'm rather saddened by the pullout. I do not think that there is ever going to be peace untill the Israelis give up all of Israel. (and Israel is already about 10 miles in width) And the gaza pullout is just a start. I mean, now the terrorists are just going to want more and more seeing that they were able to get what they wanted. And I believe that this was done not only to appease the terrorists but also those usless hypocratic fucks from the UN who pass an anti-Israeli resolution about once a day. I'm not going to pretend that I'm not biased. This is jut my opinion.

[Extra Stout]

Morally, the pullout is just.

Strategically... it may come back to haunt them.

I don't think this is a first step toward any kind of peace. For 100 years, even before Israel was created, the Arabs have been clear that they won't tolerate any kind of Jewish state, and will keep on fighting until it is destroyed. Meanwhile, the Israelis have gone on believing that they'll be able to establish some kind of peace.

[MannyIsGod]

Definetly a victory for the Palestinians, but it is not going to do any good unless they give up the West Bank as well.

[whottt]

The Israelis just did a good job of showing the Palestinians how you police your own people...

If the Palestinian leader fails to reign in his terrorists...after Sharone just forcibly evicted his own citizens from their homes of the past 38 years....setting the example of how you do it...

The Palestinians will have proved they have no claim to being a soverign government and country.

And I expect Israel will not allow them free transport between the WestBank and Gaza and he will probably not give them any economic/civil aid in Gaza...


It's time for the Palestinian's too put up or shut up...


If the terrorism continues I suspect Israel will have an excuse to never consider the PA a legitimate government again...and the end of any chance of peace.


What this will translate to is a lot of Palestinians whining about the Israelis kicking the shit out of them after they murder Israeli civillians.


I'll say we should just let them fight it out and may the best movement win.

[MannyIsGod]

The Israelis just did a good job of showing the Palestinians how you police your own people...

If the Palestinian leader fails to reign in his terrorists...after Sharone just forcibly evicted his own citizens from their homes of the past 38 years....setting the example of how you do it...

Give the PA the resources that Israel has and then we'll talk about being able to enact that kind of control.



The Palestinians will have proved they have no claim to being a soverign government and country.

Bullshit. Suffering from bad leadership does not mean your people do not have a right to soverignty.



And I expect Israel will not allow them free transport between the WestBank and Gaza and he will probably not give them any economic/civil aid in Gaza...

Israel really isn't in a position to offer aid. I don't think they have to. I think it would be more than understandable for Israel not to allow them passage at this stage.



It's time for the Palestinian's too put up or shut up...


If the terrorism continues I suspect Israel will have an excuse to never consider the PA a legitimate government again...and the end of any chance of peace.

On what grounds? That other terrorist agencies were conducting attacks? The PA is a legally elected government, they are as legimate as they get.



What this will translate to is a lot of Palestinians whining about the Israelis kicking the shit out of them after they murder Israeli civillians.


I'll say we should just let them fight it out and may the best movement win.
Well yeah, when kids who have nothing to do with the attacks are killed from helicopters I woudl imagine people are going to get pissed off.

Spin away, Spin away.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's a win-win for Israel.

If the Palestinians actually follow through and work out a peace accord, Israel gets to live in peace.

If the Palestinians don't follow through and Hezbollah and Hamas see this as something to feel empowered about, then Israel can kick the shit out of them saying "see, we tried to give them land and settle the peace with them, but they're nothing more than cowards and animals."

I guess I disagree with the common thought that Israel loses out. This is a once and for all "either we're going to live in peace or we're going to out and out kick your ass and be through with it" proposition from Israel.

[MannyIsGod]

They've given back nothing that was theirs to begin with! So they can't say we've given them land back. How about we've stopped taking over the land that we have no legal right to.

There will still be attacks. Hezbollah and Hamas have already said so. Israel needs to pull out of the West Bank, and that will be a much different situation.

I will say this, my heart broke watching those settelers being pulled out of their homes. I really do wonder how people can fail to simply get along in such a crazy fashion. It is one thing to dislike someone, but it is entirely another to have a hatred between 2 sects of people so bitter and strong that it causes actions of this sort. All over dry, ugly land.

[whottt]

Give the PA the resources that Israel has and then we'll talk about being able to enact that kind of control.


Right and give the Mexican government the resources the US has and they'll be able to not be corrupt as well...Riiiiiiiiiiiight.



Bullshit. Suffering from bad leadership does not mean your people do not have a right to soverignty.

If they have bad leadership then why should anyone give them the resources Israel has?

Besides...the PA does get aid.. they get billions aid their terrorist get aid from every country in that region...they just don't use it to the benefit of their people, that's why their was infatada as Arafat built a multi billion dollar bank account. They use it to prop themselves up as kings while their people suffer and then the point their fingers at the Israelis...


The UN's gives the Palestinians aid.

Why doesn't one ever point the finger at the Jordanians? They are the ones that expelled the PLO from their country.

And don't be so cynical yet...I haven't given up on Abbas...why have you?

I guess you realize that the terrorism isn't going to go away?



Israel really isn't in a position to offer aid. I don't think they have to. I think it would be more than understandable for Israel not to allow them passage at this stage.

Remember you said that.






On what grounds? That other terrorist agencies were conducting attacks? The PA is a legally elected government, they are as legimate as they get.

Since those terrorist groups are devoted to the destruction of Israel....not just regaining the Palestinian territories...since the PLO's goal was the destruction of Israel....

Why should Israel weaken it's defensive position?

When has the PA ever done anything to prove Israel should trust them?




Well yeah, when kids who have nothing to do with the attacks are killed from helicopters I woudl imagine people are going to get pissed off.

Spin away, Spin away.

Yeah because...the Palestinians have never killed any Israeli kids...

[whottt]

They've given back nothing that was theirs to begin with! So they can't say we've given them land back. How about we've stopped taking over the land that we have no legal right to.


Well...the other Arab countries had no right to attack Israel on all sides....that didn't keep them from doing it....

Israel told them that if attacked they will take land...


And on top of that...the PLO were fucking Jordanians.

If you punch a guy in the face don't cry like a litle bitch when he kicks your fucking ass and takes your girl for doing it.


There will still be attacks. Hezbollah and Hamas have already said so. Israel needs to pull out of the West Bank, and that will be a much different situation.

Prove it will be a different situation...I see nothing to indicate the PA will keep it's word. Nothing...they haven't been able to maintain their side of any peace agreements. Ever.




I will say this, my heart broke watching those settelers being pulled out of their homes. I really do wonder how people can fail to simply get along in such a crazy fashion. It is one thing to dislike someone, but it is entirely another to have a hatred between 2 sects of people so bitter and strong that it causes actions of this sort. All over dry, ugly land.

Dude...the Arab countries realized they couldn't defeat Israel...and they realized that every time they attacked Israel they got their asses kicked and lost land...

The PLO was a political attempt to defeat Israel...

The charter of the PLO was the end of Israel....not to form a Palestinian state.

Is it really that hard to look this stuff up...


I don't blame Israel for not cutting their own throats.

I personally don't think we should support them, I don't think Israel is greatful in the slightest for the support the US has given them and the headaches they have caused us......and the fact that we still do is a cold war anachronism and a Carter peace solution...


But the simple fact of the matter is that if we cut Israel loose they'd have annexed most of the middle East by now...And if we weren't supporting them someone else would....

[MannyIsGod]

Right and give the Mexican government the resources the US has and they'll be able to not be corrupt as well...Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

You expect the PA to control their people in that manner when they don't even have an army? Get fucking real.



If they have bad leadership then why should anyone give them the resources Israel has?

Besides...the PA does get aid.. they get billions aid their terrorist get aid from every country in that region...they just don't use it to the benefit of their people, that's why their was infatada as Arafat built a multi billion dollar bank account. They use it to prop themselves up as kings while their people suffer and then the point their fingers at the Israelis...
[/qoute]

Does nothing to say the Palestinians dont have a right to soverignty

[quote]
The UN's gives the Palestinians aid.

Why doesn't one ever point the finger at the Jordanians? They are the ones that expelled the PLO from their country.

And don't be so cynical yet...I haven't given up on Abbas...why have you?

I guess you realize that the terrorism isn't going to go away?


Why would it go away when it has been in existence from the begining for time on? Why would it go away when Israelies also commit terrorist attacks. Unless you want to label this weeks shooting as something else?



Remember you said that.

No, I'm going to forget. The problem you have is that you can't remember what I say and always want to act suprised when I say something that goes along with common sense just because you think people who view things the way I do are unable to see that.



Since those terrorist groups are devoted to the destruction of Israel....not just regaining the Palestinian territories...since the PLO's goal was the destruction of Israel....

Why should Israel weaken it's defensive position?

When has the PA ever done anything to prove Israel should trust them?

It isn't about what those groups want or don't want. It is about what the Palestinian people DESERVE and have a right to. The groups are just like everyone else who takes advandtage of these people.



Yeah because...the Palestinians have never killed any Israeli kids...
I didn't say that. You said that Palestinians whine because Israel attacks them back. Well Israel isn't always going after terrorists with the greatest care to avoid civilian deaths.

[whottt]

Manny...I would feel a lot more sympathy for the Palestinians if their goal had always been to have their own state and live in peace with their neighbors....

I would have more sympathy if their protest was of a different nature than assasinating athletes taking part of a celebration of the World.


I do not have sympathy for any people or group that deliberately attack civllians in an attempt to intimidate the civillians into causing political change.

There is right way to do things and wrong way to do things....

Did Ghandi need guns to achieve his objectives? Did MLK?

If you cannot win a battle of violence...then do not start one.

If they Palestinians want to think they are bad and commit acts of violence to achieve their goals....I have no sympathy for them when they get the shit kicked out of them in response.

I do not think they want peaces...I think they want the destruction of Israel...I think it's pretty obvious that's what they want...that's what they have always wanted.

It's a racial bigotry and religious intolerant movement and ideology...

They don't want Jews there...well...tough shit. The rest of the World put the Jews there and the Jews won the battle for their existence...since then it's just been a bunch of whining.

Like I say...I don't think Israel really appreciates the support of the US...they've done shit to prove this in the past...they've spied on us...they've blamed us for their problems...like every other country over there.

I've even heard them claim that we are the reason they are so hated in that region..

And I do agree with you that the Israelis carelessness and brutality in defending themselves has only made the problem worse...

But the Palestinian's bring these asskicking on themslves and Israel is less corrupt than the Arab and Muslim countries....


I am not really that happy that our tax dollars support their thankless asses...but it was a partnership of conveniance during the cold war and we are locked into supporting them(and Egypt) because of the Carter peace accord.

[1369]

I think the withdrawl works in Israel's favor as a PR move. They didn't have, and could never achieve, a demographic majority in the West Bank, so leaving their is no big loss. I think what most are overlooking is the ongoing expansion of jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and other places. It's not like the Israelis are retreating.

[whottt]

The Jews won't ever give Jerusalem up....and truthfully that is their holy city...that's the one area I can see Israel having a legitimate claim too.

Personally I think Jerusalem should become a nation city like the Vatican....and it should set the example for how the 3 Abrahamic religions can co-exist. But the fanatics on all sides will never stand for that.

But anyway...you can forget about Israel ever giving Jerusalem up. It will never happen.

[samikeyp]

I do not have sympathy for any people or group that deliberately attack civllians in an attempt to intimidate the civillians into causing political change.

I agree with this....sadly both sides have engaged in this. Its ironic that both sides are more alike than they will admit. They both want a homeland but they have decided that it must come at the expense of the other..and it doesn't need to.

[Duff McCartney]

The Jews won't ever give Jerusalem up....and truthfully that is their holy city...that's the one area I can see Israel having a legitimate claim too.

That's everybodies holy city dumbass. Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Dome of the Rock? Muhammed?

[Jelly]

I don't feel sorry for the settlers at all. They are doing their country a disservice by putting on such a spectacle and putting their own soldiers in such an uncomfortable position. They are each getting $500,000 to get off land that they should not be occupying in the first place. How much did they compensate the Palestinians for the same inconveniance? zero.
I'm sick of these commentators going on about what a heartbreaking scene it is. It's not heartbreaking, it's pathetic.
Get off that land and help your country move forward, you bunch of spoiled crybabies.

[smackdaddy11]

That's everybodies holy city dumbass. Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Dome of the Rock? Muhammed?

Explain wht Jerusalem doesn't appear in the Koran once and in the other holy books hundreds of times.

[Duff McCartney]

It doesn't appear in the Koran, but the hadith says that was where Muhammad ascended to heaven.

The Dome Of The Rock is also in Jerusalem, which is where the stone is that Muhammad is said to have tethered his mount Buraq during the Isra.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny...I would feel a lot more sympathy for the Palestinians if their goal had always been to have their own state and live in peace with their neighbors....

I would have more sympathy if their protest was of a different nature than assasinating athletes taking part of a celebration of the World.


I do not have sympathy for any people or group that deliberately attack civllians in an attempt to intimidate the civillians into causing political change.

There is right way to do things and wrong way to do things....

Did Ghandi need guns to achieve his objectives? Did MLK?

If you cannot win a battle of violence...then do not start one.

If they Palestinians want to think they are bad and commit acts of violence to achieve their goals....I have no sympathy for them when they get the shit kicked out of them in response.

I do not think they want peaces...I think they want the destruction of Israel...I think it's pretty obvious that's what they want...that's what they have always wanted.

It's a racial bigotry and religious intolerant movement and ideology...

They don't want Jews there...well...tough shit. The rest of the World put the Jews there and the Jews won the battle for their existence...since then it's just been a bunch of whining.

Like I say...I don't think Israel really appreciates the support of the US...they've done shit to prove this in the past...they've spied on us...they've blamed us for their problems...like every other country over there.

I've even heard them claim that we are the reason they are so hated in that region..

And I do agree with you that the Israelis carelessness and brutality in defending themselves has only made the problem worse...

But the Palestinian's bring these asskicking on themslves and Israel is less corrupt than the Arab and Muslim countries....


I am not really that happy that our tax dollars support their thankless asses...but it was a partnership of conveniance during the cold war and we are locked into supporting them(and Egypt) because of the Carter peace accord.
I think you and I would both be happy just to see our tax dollars uninvolved in the entire process.

I do not harbor sympathy for the groups like Hamas and Hezbollah regardless of what good they do but I do feel much sympathy for the Palestians who are mearly the pawns of everyone in that region.

[whottt]

That's everybodies holy city dumbass. Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Dome of the Rock? Muhammed?


Right...which is why I said this:



Personally I think Jerusalem should become a nation city like the Vatican....and it should set the example for how the 3 Abrahamic religions can co-exist.

Get it?


And it's not "THE" fucking holy city for the Muslims...and you know it.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't feel sorry for the settlers at all. They are doing their country a disservice by putting on such a spectacle and putting their own soldiers in such an uncomfortable position. They are each getting $500,000 to get off land that they should not be occupying in the first place. How much did they compensate the Palestinians for the same inconveniance? zero.
I'm sick of these commentators going on about what a heartbreaking scene it is. It's not heartbreaking, it's pathetic.
Get off that land and help your country move forward, you bunch of spoiled crybabies.
It is what they consider home. Their government encouraged them to move out there. It wasn't as if they just settled there on their own. Many times, no amount of money will make having to leave what you consider home OK.

I agree they don't have any legal right to the land, but land ownership in itself is quite a debatable philisopical issue.

[whottt]

It doesn't appear in the Koran, but the hadith says that was where Muhammad ascended to heaven.

The Dome Of The Rock is also in Jerusalem, which is where the stone is that Muhammad is said to have tethered his mount Buraq during the Isra.


Yeah? and which religion has been around longer? Therefore who has a greater claim?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

i think its a stupid move to pull out these settlers

[Jelly]

It is what they consider home. Their government encouraged them to move out there. It wasn't as if they just settled there on their own. Many times, no amount of money will make having to leave what you consider home OK.

I agree they don't have any legal right to the land, but land ownership in itself is quite a debatable philisopical issue.

My grandparents were emotionally attached to their home of 50 years in San Antonio, but give them half a million dollars and they'd be outta there. It's not about losing their homes, it's more about a twisted sense of nationalism and superiority. Both sides need to give more of these concessions.

as it turns out, many of those people being dragged out did not even live in that area. They were just staging a scene that gave an impression that they were literally being dragged out of their homes. Also, considering the millions of people that have died and are still dying around the world for reasons directly and indirectly related to this whole holyland BS, I don't care how emotionally attached someone is to their home. If it helps the greater peace process, these settlers should leave willingly and without putting their countrymen through such an ordeal. It is selfish. It is more important to do what is best for your country, community, and for peace than to cling on to something for yourself.

[MannyIsGod]

You miss my point. I'm not saying I don't approve of the action. I am saying I definetly have sympathy for people who have to leave their homes.

[Duff McCartney]

Yeah? and which religion has been around longer? Therefore who has a greater claim?

Great, now you're acting like a little kid.

"I was here first!!"

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Dan, I know you're extremely clueless on anything you don't get from democraticunderground.com, but at least try and get the word intifada right.

[smeagol]

My grandparents were emotionally attached to their home of 50 years in San Antonio, but give them half a million dollars and they'd be outta there.

Bad analogy. Would your grandparents be OK knowing they had to leave their home because that land was being taken over by the Mexicans?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

That's an even worse analogy.

Try... your grandparents settled onto land that their country (let's say Mexico) didn't really have a right to.

Then, 40 years later, someone came to them and said "here's 500K, move."

[whottt]

Ok Duff...I am childish...but you hate Jews. Period.


Are saying Jerusalem is the most holy city in Islam? Because it is for the Jews...Is Jerusalem as of much historical signifigance to the Muslims as it is to the Jews?

Well shit...a Christian got killed in Mecca...I guess that makes it a holy city for Christians, 565th on the list of important holy cities of Christians...but that gives us as much claim to it as the Muslims...give us half of it...and let's stick a church over Mohammed's birth house.

That's what the Muslims did.

[smeagol]

Saying Jerusalem is as important to Muslims as it is to Jews is stupid.

[whottt]

That's what the muslims say smeagol...even the ones that aren't terrorists....

Just like de-facto...any land that has ever been occupied by muslims is officialy the property of Islam, and they have right to claim as an Islamic state....and those that don't convert to Islam are second class citizens.

The peaceful ones just don't think it's justified to use terrorism to claim it as an Islamic state.

[Extra Stout]

Morally, it would be right for the Israelis to vacate the West Bank as well.

However, it would be far more difficult politically for them to do that.

At no point ever was Gaza a Jewish homeland. That has been the city of the Philistines/Palestinians since antiquity. The settlers were trying to establish "Greater Israel," the full measure of land God promised the Jews in the Old Testament, which stretches from Sinai to Lebanon into Iraq. Only the most zealous of the religious zealots are part of that movement.

But the West Bank is biblical Judea and Samaria. A lot of Jews think that belongs to them. Pulling out of there requires a lot more political capital than Sharon has left.

And, it is folly to think that pulling behind the Green Line will mean peace. The Palestinians will tell us what we want to hear. But they have no intention of tolerating the Jewish state smack dab in the middle of the Dar-al-Islam EVER, even in the Negev.

To them, it is similar to what it would be for us if a bunch of fundamentalist Muslims settled into the Hill Country and declared it an independent Islamic state. We'd resolve to kill every last one of them if we had to do so to get it back. And it would take a lot more than 57 years for us to stop fighting.

The only way the Arabs will relent is if they get the ever-loving shit beaten out of them so thoroughly that they lose the will to fight. Israel can't and won't do that unless and until they are on the verge of annihilation.

And Israel isn't going to get the support of the international community EVER, because most nations put a much higher priority on cozying up to the folks sitting on top of all the oil than they do the interests of a few million Jews that they don't like anyway.

So, fine, OK, let Israel take the moral high ground and pull out of the occupied territories if they see fit. But don't think it's going to change anything.

[Extra Stout]

That's what the muslims say smeagol...even the ones that aren't terrorists....

Just like de-facto...any land that has ever been occupied by muslims is officialy the property of Islam, and they have right to claim as an Islamic state....and those that don't convert to Islam are second class citizens.

The peaceful ones just don't think it's justified to use terrorism to claim it as an Islamic state.They don't take as hard a line on Al-Andalus (Spain) or the Balkans as they do on Palestine.

That's not to say there aren't a good many Moroccans who dream of reconquest in Iberia. But it's not the same as Palestine. Muslims see that as part of their heartland.

[Nbadan]

http://www.cagle.com/working/050817/breen.gif

http://www.cagle.com/working/050817/englehart.gif

[Jelly]

Bad analogy. Would your grandparents be OK knowing they had to leave their home because that land was being taken over by the Mexicans?

as it turns out, my grandparents community was taken over by the Mexicans. :lmao

[E20]

Dan, I know you're extremely clueless on anything you don't get from democraticunderground.com, but at least try and get the word intifada right.
Yeah, Intifada means Arab uprising.

It's sad that the settlers are being forced out of there homes by there own people. In my WH class we did a section on Great Empires of the Past. The muslim empires from the past didn't really have a problem with the jews they let them live among them except without some exclusive rights but, didn't have any problem with them. Now, it's just a mess. Poverty stricken, any maniac can get power and start controlling the goverment, people blaming people. The middle east needs some sort of refreshment like the French Revolution or something similar.


That's what the muslims say smeagol...even the ones that aren't terrorists....

Just like de-facto...any land that has ever been occupied by muslims is officialy the property of Islam, and they have right to claim as an Islamic state....and those that don't convert to Islam are second class citizens.

The peaceful ones just don't think it's justified to use terrorism to claim it as an Islamic state.

The holiest sites of Islam went: Mecca then Jerusalem then it switched to
Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem. At first Muslims were told to face jerusalem at there time of prayer then it was changed after the Kabbah was established. I dunno whottt, a lot of the middle east was controlled by the ottoman and mughal empires and lot's of greece, spain and other parts were controlled by them but, they don't hold it dear to themselves as they do Jerusalem.

[Vashner]

Maybe Sharon buried a couple nukes under Gaza :)

[Nbadan]

Maybe Sharon buried a couple nukes under Gaza

The nuclear fallout would kill them all. This is what I always wondered about Israel, Would they use their nuclear weapons to defend themselves in the case of a land invasion?

[MannyIsGod]

I have no doubt Israel would use their nukes in the event an unwinnable situation which endangered their existance.

And this is one of the best ed cartoons of all time:

http://www.cagle.com/working/050817/englehart.gif

[jochhejaam]

There is no appeasing the murderous, bigotted, demonic Islamic terrorist. Their anti-zionism and anti-God mentality ends when their miserable wretched God-forsaken life ends.
72 virgins in heaven lustfully awaiting them? No, millions of unrepentant whores await them in Hell and they won't be available!




Saturday, August 20, 2005

Just as Abbas spoke, dozens of masked Hamas (search) gunmen briefly took over Gaza City's central square, keeping police cruisers at bay as they announced they would not halt attacks despite Israel's withdrawal. Their appearance in the park was a direct challenge to Abbas, who has appealed to militants not to flaunt their weapons in public. It also underscored the reluctance of police to confront gunmen.

The Hamas gunmen said they would continue attacks until Israel (search) also withdraws from the West Bank and east Jerusalem.

"This retreat does not mean the end of our battle, but it is the beginning," said one gunman, who only gave his nom-de-guerre, Abu Obeidah.

A sign on a nearby wall said, "My dream is not going to be completed without Jerusalem."

"We will not stand with our hands tied as the remainder that our land remains occupied and our holy sites are desecrated," Abu Obeidah said. "We will work to strengthen the resistance in these areas for the resistance is the only thing that will kick them out of these areas."

[B]Hamas opposes the existence of Israel and has killed hundreds of Israelis in attacks.

[smeagol]

Damn thses guys from Hamas.

If they think they will own Jerusalem, then these conflict will not end until one of the sides is totally annihilated or if one side simply gives up. And it's safe to say the Jews are not giving up Jerusalem the same way the Muslims would never give up Mecca.