Why does the World dislike the US?

[smeagol]

Why is it that the rest of the World has “issues” with the US?

Knowing that the US represents freedom and democracy, why is it that so many people are suspicious of the US or just flat out hate Americans?

I have my own ideas but I would like to hear the American POV on this issue.

[Trainwreck2100]

Because we rule and they are all jealous.

USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

[Dos]

probably cause every freaking body in the world wants to live here... sheesh 40% of mexico wants to move to the US...

[Trainwreck2100]

probably cause every freaking body in the world wants to live here... sheesh 40% of mexico wants to move to the US...


The other 60% is already here.

[whottt]

It's human nature for the unsucessful to resent the successful.

It's human nature for the weak to try and drag down the strong.

It's human nature for the poor to hate the rich.

The have nots to hate the havs.

We're like the Lakers, Yankees and Cowboys....


And we're not near as hated as it seems...just because unhappy people cry the loudest doesn't mean they are the majority.

Now explain to me why people hate the Spurs....aren't they the underdogs?

[Trainwreck2100]

It's human nature for the unsucessful to resent the successful.

It's human nature for the weak to try and drag down the strong.

We're like the Lakers, Yankees and Cowboys....


And we're not near as hated as it seems...just because unhappy people cry the loudest doesn't mean they are the majority.

Now explain to me why people hate the Spurs....aren't they the underdogs?

Spurs are like Japan???

[Ocotillo]

It's human nature for the unsucessful to resent the successful.

It's human nature for the weak to try and drag down the strong.

It's human nature for the poor to hate the rich.

The have nots to hate the havs.

We're like the Lakers, Yankees and Cowboys....


And we're not near as hated as it seems...just because unhappy people cry the loudest doesn't mean they are the majority.

Now explain to me why people hate the Spurs....aren't they the underdogs?

There's more to it than that. There has been a tendency to impose our will on third world countries around the world that has gone on for decades. When we helped the Shah of Iran gain power in the 50s, that had consequences that we (Americans) were blind to until the 1979 hostage taking.

He overthrow our old ally Saddam Hussein but yet we help the Saudi royal family, Mubarek and Musharref. Those are three leaders that will eventually be overthrown by some sort of revolution (that will likely bring even worse people to power) but because we stand with them today, the people in those countries who are oppressed hate us as well.

We isolate Castro but we supported Pinochet. I'm not saying we are always wrong in these instances either but because we are the most powerful nation on earth, our actions have consequences that we often don't perceive.

[whottt]

There's not more to it than that...the rest of the world is fucked in the head.

We didn't put Mubarrek in power...the Muslims did when they fucking assasinated Sadat. What did Sadat want? Peace...Ooops...so much for the peace movement in the middle east.

We didn't put the Shah power...this is something I see every fucking liberal say...and it amazes me how ignorant they are of history. We did not put the Shah of Iran in power. We did not do it. We didn't put him in power...we didn't put his father in power.

We did not put the Saudy Royal family power.

We did not Saddam Hussein in Power...Saddam was a fucking socialist...does that sound like someone we are going to put in power? Or does that sound like some one the Russians wanted to put in power?


Yes we allied ourselves with the Shah....because when he was in the process of turning that into a Parliamentary Democracy...his fucking PM tried to overthrow him and ally himself with the communists...


It's not like our goal over there is to put tyrants in power...we have put zero tyrants in power in the middle east...and the fucking ones we have allied ourselves with we have always pressured for Democratic reform.

Yes we let allied ourselves with tyrants before letting a country fall to communism...because guess what...communism is tyrancy...and why that fucking pisses the dumb muslims off is beyond me...their tyrants still let them be muslims...the communists sure as hell weren't.


But basically allying ourselves with any of these countries is going to piss off an element of their population...because they fucking hate each other and always have...and the only thing that exceeds their hatred for each other...is their hatred for us in and the jews...

No...we do not deserve their hatred and indeed...if they were as motivated to fix their own fucking countries and cultures...as th ey are to hate the US , kill civillians, and tryi to be 2 bit fucking despot that thinks he knows what's best for 20 million people...they wouldn't be a shithole.

Their culture, which is based in religious and racial bigoty is failing...it's been failing since about the 16th centurty when they ceased to be progressive...the rest of the world has passed them by in every aspect...and instead of trying to join the rest of the world...they are trying to drag the rest of the world down and backwards.

And I fully support nuking their fucking culture off the planet before letting them suceed...if they end up getting us first...more power to em...I guess they were the culture and ideology best suited to survive after all. Nature does not lie.

And thanks to our rampant liberalism and unwillingness to do what is necessary to defend ourselves...that thinks these people want peace and not to rule us..they will probably will succeed in destroying us.

[Trainwreck2100]

USA...........USA..............USA..........USA... .........USA...........USA

We RULE!!!!!!

[spurster]

The issue is that US policy is guided by often conflicting goals. In addition to promoting democracy and freedom and human rights, the US also wants the world good for US business and to conform to its morals. Because of business interests, the US will cooperate with China. Because of oil, the US will cooperate with Saudi Arabia. The US is not part of Kyoto because of its potential effects on US business. The US aligns itself with Israel because it feels morally close to a Jewish state than to Islamic states ("morally" isn't quite the right word, but it's the best I could come up with).

Finally, the US has the power to dictate its interests on the rest of the world, which might not agree with a lot of them. This can't be too surprising when there is a lot of disagreement in the US, too.

[whottt]

Spurster...what makes you think other countries don't have their own agendas?


What's the difference? We usually succeed in achieving ours...why? Because we are capitalists and cultural chameleons....

Ours tend to be more benvolent an altruistic...in the here and now...and in history.


You know why? Because you can't be generous if you aint got shit to give.

[whottt]

Have you ever looked at those that hate us?

Take a good long look at them...

What do they want?

They want control and the ability to dictate the lives of the individuals...that is what Islam wants...that is what Socialism and Communism want...they hate the rights of the individual...

Now if you want to be a slave...then I totally understand why you sypmathize with those that hate America...but if you don't...Example...if you are an Argentian coming here to make a buck....You have no credibility or rational for disliking America. You are either naive, ignorant of history, or deluded.

[smeagol]

...if you are an Argentian coming here to make a buck....You have no credibility or rational for disliking America. You are either naive, ignorant of history, or deluded.
I hope this is not target at me. The last time you posted a long response to one of my posts, I misunderstood you (I thought you were attacking me).

In any case, I don't dislike America, I dislike some of America's foreign policy and foreign trade decisions. I don't like when American's become cocky and talk down to me (it's happened many times when discussing topics in these threads).

I would love to see America coordinating with Europe and the rest of the developed World, policies that would help get the rest of the World out of poverty and ignorance.

[whottt]

I hope this is not target at me. The last time you posted a long response to one of my posts, I misunderstood you (I thought you were attacking me).


I said "example"....

There are people that are here in this country...to make money for themselves...that hate this country. There are people that are filthy rich in this country...that have a socialist outlook...that's the ultimate in hypochrisy...

Because communism and socialism are the ultimate form of one man rule...they are ultimate form of tyranny.

And it's so easy to say you like those things when you are making money and chosing the path of your life.


In any case, I don't dislike America, I dislike some of America's foreign policy and foreign trade decisions. I don't like when American's become cocky and talk down to me (it's happened many times when discussing topics in these threads).

If I was Argentina and saying Argentina was fucked up...how would you talk to me?

You wouldn't like it either...

America does fucked up shit....but the ideals in which they do it are ones that are progressive.


I would love to see America coordinating with Europe and the rest of the developed World, policies that would help get the rest of the World out of poverty and ignorance.


And this is why I get offended smeagol...you are so in touch with America's faults...

Have you ever looked at the rest of the World?

Since when is Europe the center for enlightenment?


What makes you think they are so totally altruistic in their goals?

I see nothing indicate this and see every thing to indicate that they want Americas economic power for themselves....

Last I checked they were the birth place of the last 2 world wars...fascism, commuinism, socialism, nazism, the holocaust, elitism. the inquisition...

Europe is still the ultimate separation of the classes...peasantry and aristocracy system....

There are some countries over there that aren't that way...Poland, GB,...and I am not just saying that because were allied with us...they make a sincere attempt...I think the UK is probably still heavily into aristocracy but they do try...Poland is a great little country...the rest are not so different than they have ever been. And I definitely trust us and think our goals are more altruistic than theirs.

Europe created this Middle East problem...not the US...they didn't think peaseantry there were going to be smart enough to figrue out they were ruled by tyrants...they didn't expect the Jews in Israel to survive. And they want their system maintained...because they are far more dependent on mideast oil than we are.

[smeagol]

There's not more to it than that...the rest of the world is fucked in the head.
How can you lump 5.5 billion people in the same bag?

[whottt]

How can you lump 5.5 billion people in the same bag?


Did you or did you not do the same thing when you started this thread? Check the title again.

You spoke for the World...I responded to the World.

[smeagol]

I said "example"....

There are people that are here in this country...to make money for themselves...that hate this country. There are people that are filthy rich in this country...that have a socialist outlook...that's the ultimate in hypochrisy...

Because communism and socialism are the ultimate form of one man rule...they are ultimate form of tyranny.

And it's so easy to say you like those things when you are making money and chosing the path of your life.
Just to clarify, I was reassigned to this country by and American bank. I was very happy working in Argentina but this bank saw something special in me and transferred me to NY. I do make more money here than I would make in Argentina, and all in all, I’m happy here. But I miss my country too much. I will probably be back there in two or three years.

In any case, I don’t hate America, I just criticize the things I don’t like about her. I have the right to do so.



If I was Argentina and saying Argentina was fucked up...how would you talk to me?

You wouldn't like it either...
Argentina is fucked up. Its people do fucked up things. Its government is fucked up. I would not mind at all you criticize, in an honest way, Argentina and its people. I might probably agree with you.

I just don’t like it when ignorant idiots, talking from their high American horses, refer to the rest of the World as shitholes. Those same idiots that say “40% of Mexicans want to come and live here because we are the greatest country in the World and Mexico is such a piece of shit of a country, blah, blah, blah. . . “



And this is why I get offended smeagol...you are so in touch with America's faults...
Language barrier again. All I said is I love to see the 1st World unite against poverty and hunger. I said it elsewhere and I will say it a million times. This has nothing to do with America, Europe or Japan. You totally misunderstood me and went whottt on me.

[whottt]

Just to clarify, I was reassigned to this country by and American bank. I was very happy working in Argentina but this bank saw something special in me and transferred me to NY. I do make more money here than I would make in Argentina, and all in all, I’m happy here. But I miss my country too much. I will probably be back there in two or three years.


That makes all the difference in the world...by all means feel free to criticize if you are forced to be here...

But surely you understand why I would be offended by someone who comes here to make money and then is critical?

It does make a difference.



Argentina is fucked up. Its people do fucked up things. Its government is fucked up. I would not mind at all you criticize, in an honest way, Argentina and its people. I might probably agree with you.


Well as you know...I actually liked Argentina, I defended their championship over team USA and like a good American...I advocate we adapt some of there program rather than making excuses for losing...but I have noticed a heavy influx of Argentinian's that don't like America...and many of them...speak from ignorance...they watch too many movies I think. It's only recently that I have begun to fight back in defense of my country....

If these guys are going to be the ugly foreigner than I am going to be the Ugly American.


=I just don’t like it when ignorant idiots, talking from their high American horses, refer to the rest of the World as shitholes. Those same idiots that say “40% of Mexicans want to come and live here because we are the greatest country in the World and Mexico is such a piece of shit of a country, blah, blah, blah. . . “


That was poll of Mexican citizens...these motherfuckers can't get across the border fast enough...

Why do you think it is?

They have as much natural resources as us...Mexico is one of the most rich countries in terms of natural resources in the entire world...

Why is there so much poverty there?


Because it's a shithole with a corrupt fucking government. Why don't they try and fix their country? That's what I want to know?




Language barrier again. All I said is I love to see the 1st World unite against poverty and hunger. I said it elsewhere and I will say it a million times. This has nothing to do with America, Europe or Japan. You totally misunderstood me and went whottt on me.

Man...many of thse countries refuse to lay aside their cultural pride and it holds them back...to adapt to a changed world...to adapt to where being able to pick fruit off the trees is not enough to survive and keep up with the rest of the world.

And we give them fucking money...our government gives them money...American citizens donate more money to these fucking charities than the rest of the world combined...


Why doesn't it get to the people? Becauuse they have corrupt governments and cultures bound tegether by racial, religious, and ethnic ties...they have populations of tens of millions and are ruled by one man...usually a thug who would be in prison in the west...who spends the money on military and defense to keep his corrupt oppressive ass in power rather than feeding his people.

Then when the US allies itself with these types, gives aid...and puts up pressure on them to Democratize...people say we are propping up dictators or imposing our will.


It's bullshit.

[spurster]

Spurster...what makes you think other countries don't have their own agendas?


What's the difference? We usually succeed in achieving ours...why? Because we are capitalists and cultural chameleons....

Ours tend to be more benvolent an altruistic...in the here and now...and in history.


You know why? Because you can't be generous if you aint got shit to give.
You are way too sensitive, whottt. My point wasn't to criticize the US, but to explain dislike of the US.

Of course, other countries have their own agendas, but the US is one of the few (the only one?) to be able to force their agenda on the rest of the world. We have debated and will debate on how benevolent and altruistic the US agenda is. But other countries/people resent having the US agenda forced on them and disagree with much of it.

[whottt]

Maybe it's the bad ones that resent us....


I mean who do you think it is that hates us in France?

The ones that fought Hitler? Or the ones that collaborated with him?

In Germany? The West Germans? Or the communists...who aren't used to having to compete in th work place to make as much as someone who works harder.

In the middle east? Looks like the terrorists that hate us there...and the corrupt leaders...


I still say that protests don't speak for the entire population...

the UK and Austrailia were also said to be against us...yet their pro-Ameircan and Iraq war leaders both got re-elected...

It'll be interesting to see if Chiraq and Schroeder get re-elected.

[Dos]

I just don’t like it when ignorant idiots, talking from their high American horses, refer to the rest of the World as shitholes. Those same idiots that say “40% of Mexicans want to come and live here because we are the greatest country in the World and Mexico is such a piece of shit of a country, blah, blah, blah. . . “



Hey this was a poll that was done in mexico last week by some mexican newpaper.

[Extra Stout]

I don't think that all the critics of the U.S. dislike us for the same reasons.

This is still a generalization, of course, but here goes:

Latin Americans probably are sick and tired of our meddling in their affairs. Their development has been hampered by our instigating a revolution whenever they elect somebody we don't like. Sure, we thought it was in our own best interests. But that has consequences and resentment is one of them.

Europeans... well, some of them just don't like our foreign policy. They think it's too aggressive and bullying. Their background has been that aggressive bullying results in huge wars that cause their continent to be reduced to rubble. They don't want that to happen to the U.S. or anybody else.

Europeans also have more of a communitarian mindset. They are more willing to give up some private wealth in order to have better public infrastructure like parks, plazas, trains that run on time and go everywhere, big markets, great architecture, etc. They don't understand our different priorities, like our crumbling roads leading to perfect little gardens around perfect big houses.

Other Europeans are bitter because capitalism beat out Marxism.

Asians think our foreign policy is too narrowly self-serving and fails to recognize the potential synergies that can help us out in the long term if we give other countries some leeway in the short term.

Africans are starving, war-torn, uneducated, and sick, know that we are very rich, believe we have the power to save all of them, and think we just choose not to do it. Their society is utterly dysfunctional.

Arabs are dysfunctional as well, and not the least bit introspective. Nothing that befalls them ever could possibly be of their own doing. They don't want to take responsibility for anything. The Jews and the Americans make convenient scapegoats for all their failures. We see this problem in Iraq -- Bush made the mistake of thinking that the Iraqis were like Westeners and would just get to work building their own country if they were given a stake in it. Wrong. They'd much rather have other people make all their decisions for them than have to make their own and risk making a mistake. Failure is a huge loss of face to them. They'll never admit they have responsibility for their own plight, so they'll hate America until they find somebody else even more convenient to blame.

Iranians -- well, if not for Eisenhower's and Churchill's decision to overthrow Mossadegh in the '50s in order to protect British Petroleum, Iran today would be a moderate, technologically advanced, prosperous, quasi-democratic, influential Muslim state in the region, an ally to the West, and an enormous calming influence in the Middle East. They'd be like Indonesia or Malaysia, but richer.

[whottt]

I don't think that all the critics of the U.S. dislike us for the same reasons.

This is still a generalization, of course, but here goes:

Latin Americans probably are sick and tired of our meddling in their affairs. Their development has been hampered by our instigating a revolution whenever they elect somebody we don't like. Sure, we thought it was in our own best interests. But that has consequences and resentment is one of them.


The turmoil is all their own...at worst we are guilty of choosing a side...

And you forget that in the mid 60's latin America nearly went communist...that's not merely looking out for our best interests...that's called not getting nukes stuck up our butts by Russia...

And when you show me a communist country that people are dying to get into...not get out of..., an when America ceases to be one of the major migration centers in the entire world...then I might concede that people would have been better off.


Europeans... well, some of them just don't like our foreign policy. They think it's too aggressive and bullying. Their background has been that aggressive bullying results in huge wars that cause their continent to be reduced to rubble. They don't want that to happen to the U.S. or anybody else.


Europeans did that to themselves...Europe is anti-semitic and it has been for the last 200 years....

France is anti-semitic
Britain is anti-semitic...

The European powers...including our British allies...have a history of anti-semitism.

And Europe also didn't like us opening up free trade world wide....but that's the price they had to pay for us bailing them out financially and militarily for the wars they drug us into. WE had to make some of that money back...especially since the default on the WWI loans.





Europeans also have more of a communitarian mindset. They are more willing to give up some private wealth in order to have better public infrastructure like parks, plazas, trains that run on time and go everywhere, big markets, great architecture, etc. They don't understand our different priorities, like our crumbling roads leading to perfect little gardens around perfect big houses.

No they aren't...they advocate others giving up their wealth...they don't advocate giving up their own....




Other Europeans are bitter because capitalism beat out Marxism.

True...but you fail to see the main reason so many Europeans hate us...

Because we are populist country...and the idea of peasants controlling the royalty is appauling to them, to their governments...which have done a good job of brainwashing their populations.

They think we are a bunch of barbaric peasants lacking refinement and culture and the fact that we bailed them out time and time again and are now their primary protectors...it's just a shock.


Asians think our foreign policy is too narrowly self-serving and fails to recognize the potential synergies that can help us out in the long term if we give other countries some leeway in the short term.

I think Asians like us....I think every Asian country is pro-American...including Vietnam.


Africans are starving, war-torn, uneducated, and sick, know that we are very rich, believe we have the power to save all of them, and think we just choose not to do it. Their society is utterly dysfunctional.

No...Africa...like the middle east...is a total victim of colinlization....

Of Eurpean colonization...where their resources were stolen from them and puppet rulers installed....

It was Eurpe that did that did to Africa...it was Europe that did it to the middle east.

That's what I am saying...what in the hell makes you guys think Europe is the busom of humanity....look at their history...hell you don't have to look far to see the forces at work over there...it wasn't that long ago.



Iranians -- well, if not for Eisenhower's and Churchill's decision to overthrow Mossadegh in the '50s in order to protect British Petroleum, Iran today would be a moderate, technologically advanced, prosperous, quasi-democratic, influential Muslim state in the region, an ally to the West, and an enormous calming influence in the Middle East. They'd be like Indonesia or Malaysia, but richer.

Um...Mossadegh was trying to overthrow the Shah and ally himself with the Soveit Union...and our coup which was the brain child of the British(that aristocracy thing again)...failed. It was an unexpected popular uprising that lead to the overthrow of Mossadegh.

And the funniest thing is...the Muslims that rule it now have nothing in comming with Mossadegh...who was a socialist...not an Islamist.


People need to stop trying to over throw their governments...it only makes the government becoem more brutal....the change must take place over time.

If you see people trying to overthrow the US government it will become a brutal regime as well....at least to those that are trying to overthrow it...the day you hear a large group of Muslims trying to make California an Islamic state is the day the US Government starts looking a whole lot like China or the Soviet Union.

[smeagol]

whottt, not everything the US does is the right thing to do. I understand you love your country and you defend it no matter what. I also agee with you that many of the problems the third World has are a consequence of poor domestic policies. But c'mon, the US has screwed things up in the past meddling in the affairs of many sovereign nations (and it continues to do so).

[MannyIsGod]

I've been there done that with Whottt before. I'll watch this one from the sidelines.

[whottt]

Who has done a better job?

I agree we have screwed up...

We screwed up by pulling out of Vietnam...

We screwed up by letting the Islamic revolution in Iran...

40% unemployment in one of the wealthiest nations in the world...

Slavery was fucked...that was a tradition from Europe, Asia, South America and Africa that we had to cure ourselves =of...


Nuking Japan was probably a wrong...but was there any other way to beat the Japanese...we didn't totally beat them with the nukes...only their government.


And we pollute like motherfuckers...This is hte one thing I can honestly say we are the worst in World History at at a definite threat to the World because of...




I do not feel bad about interfering in the affairs of other countries...Communism is worse than a dictatorship...at least a dictatorship will let you leave...and Communism was an expansionsist movement of conquering and imposing...

You can still be a communist in a Democracy...in a capitalist country...the reverse is not true.

Subversive interference is better than flat out conquering which is what every other world power has done...

And we didn'd declare war on Islam...it declared war on us.

Who is better?

[MannyIsGod]

:lol @ whottt not understanding that the US had no business in Vietnam and then saying we might have been wrong with the nukes.

I still maintain that the nukes were terrorism and all nuclear warefare is based on terrorism but the smart choice.

Ah, whatever.

[whottt]

We also fucked up letting Guevara and Castro steal every thing from the Cuban citizenry...now Castro lives like a king and has god like control on millions of suffering and opresssed Cubans.


It worked out so well...just ask all those refugees in Florida begging to go back to Cuba.


http://www.hermanos.org/pix/har017a.jpg

[Guru of Nothing]

whottt, But c'mon, the US has screwed things up in the past meddling in the affairs of many sovereign nations (and it continues to do so).

Yeah, AND???

People are fucked up everywhere, and you seemed to acknowledge that, but beyond that, is there a point to what you are saying?

When discussing world politics and history, there are an infinite number of variables, most of which you seem to want to ignore, as do a lot of people who argue/debate politics. This is especially so when the topic is so vague and fuzzy.

[smeagol]

Yeah, AND???

People are fucked up everywhere, and you seemed to acknowledge that, but beyond that, is there a point to what you are saying?

When discussing world politics and history, there are an infinite number of variables, most of which you seem to want to ignore, as do a lot of people who argue/debate politics. This is especially so when the topic is so vague and fuzzy.
My point is that the US meddles in other countries' affairs (at least this is the point you quoted me on).

Do you see Argentina meddling in the US' affairs?

What is your point?

[whottt]

Smeagol does have a point...Argentina doesn't meddle in other countries affairs...take WWII for instance...wouldn't we have all been better off if America had followed Argentina's lead and...................done absolutely nothing except sit there and offer moral support to the Nazis...

Let someone else worry about it...we tried that...by the way. We found out it usually ends up costing more lives when we do that.

[JoeChalupa]

You mean we only worry about it when it is in our best interest to be worried?

Like who gives a whott about all the other trouble spots in the world?
There are lives being lost every day but not much is being done because it is NOT in the best interest of the US.

But I guess Iraq is.

[whottt]

You mean we only worry about it when it is in our best interest to be worried?

Like who gives a whott about all the other trouble spots in the world?
There are lives being lost every day but not much is being done because it is NOT in the best interest of the US.

But I guess Iraq is.


Joe...you need to get together with smeagol...according to him all we do is meddle in the affairs of other countries...while you are saying we don't...which is it, liberal?

And a Semper Fi won't save you this time, back it up.

[JoeChalupa]

Oh, you mean like you back up all your posts? :lol

And when did I say we don't meddle in other countries affairs..huh, conservative?

My point is that we are in Iraq, which I admit we cannot get out of now and Bush knew once he pulled the trigger we wouldn't be able to pull back.

But I also think the US needs to get involved for humanitarian reasons.
I support military intervention to save lives (yeah, I know...that's the reason we're in Iraq). Not because the country has oil and it will give a much needed strategic military prescence but for the sake of humanity.

I know we can't be everywhere but that is just my opinion.

Whottt say you?

[Guru of Nothing]

My point is that the US meddles in other countries' affairs (at least this is the point you quoted me on).

Do you see Argentina meddling in the US' affairs?

What is your point?

Congratulations, you and I are discussing absolutely nothing of importance, which is the best possible outcome, given your passive and weak opening.

[Guru of Nothing]

My point is that the US meddles in other countries' affairs

Name for me one political entity that does not meddle in other people's affairs.

Just one.

[whottt]

Saddam invaded another country...lost a war VS virtually the entire rest of the world...including Muslim countries...and then violated the conditions of his cease fire aggreement multiple...thus giving us legal recourse to take him out.

This according to the UN resolutions...the UN pussed out of backing up their own resolutions...we were totally with in the framework of the UN resolutions to take Saddam out.

Not to mention the fact that we were having to base ourselves in Saudi Arabia to enforce the no-fly zone(that propping up a dictator thing we are always accused of)...a top flight recruiting tool for militant Islam...and one mentioned by Usama as a reason for the Sept 11 attacks.

Saddam sitting on billions of dollars made him more dangerous than a country without those resources...while simultaenously being vulnerable to a toppling...


And the only people the sanctions were hurting were the Iraqis...yet another reason cited by Usama...

So what do we do?

Let Saddam off scott free for countless violations and nose thumbings? Lift the sanctions.

Continue them? Ineffective as they were?

Or take him out?

Why is it so fucking bad that we took Saddam out...exactly what was he contributing to the world...to that region...

Are we really so evil for taking out a dictator that soght WMD and control of the middle east?


And I hate to tell you this...but if we wanted cheap oil we had a lot better chance of getting it from Saddam than we will from any government that replaces him....all we had to do was buddy up to Saddam...arm him to the teeth...and we'd have had the cheapest Oil ever.

[JoeChalupa]

And now those billions of dollars are going to US companies!! YES!!!!

[whottt]

Um...Iraq's ability to produce Oil has been severely damaged by this war...



If all we want is Oil...we'd be sucking up to Iran right now...

We'd give them Israel...

How much Oil you think we could get for giving them high grade nukes...

As much as China is getting?

C'mon all we care about is Oil...

Figure it out.

[spurster]

I agree with everything Extra Stout said. Though for a conservative, I'm surprised how admiring ES is of Europe's public infrastructure.

[smeagol]

Name for me one political entity that does not meddle in other people's affairs.

Just one.
Huh?

We are talking about countries meddling in other countries affairs the way the US has done since WWII.

WTF has political entities meddling in people's affairs have to do with anything?

[smeagol]

Smeagol does have a point...Argentina doesn't meddle in other countries affairs...take WWII for instance...wouldn't we have all been better off if America had followed Argentina's lead and...................done absolutely nothing except sit there and offer moral support to the Nazis...

Let someone else worry about it...we tried that...by the way. We found out it usually ends up costing more lives when we do that.
I never said the US has to be passive to everything that goes around in the World. And Argentina was not attacked in WWII and our boats were not being sunk by Uboats. At the time we were governed by a dictator of our own, who happened to sympathize with Hitler.

But please don't compare taking down crazy Hitler to taking down Salvador Allende.

[smeagol]

Congratulations, you and I are discussing absolutely nothing of importance, which is the best possible outcome, given your passive and weak opening.
Not sure I follow you.

[whottt]

But please don't compare taking down crazy Hitler to taking down Salvador Allende.

I thought you said you weren't a socialist?


Man that was the fucking coldwar...I don't think America has ever claimed to be a friend of Socialism or Communism...if that's what you are then I totally understand why you hate us...

You are smart to hate us, because we are your arch fucking enemy if that's what you are.

And I don't think we ever claimed we weren't...communism was at War with us just as much as we with it...and we had every right to defend ourselves against it.


You act like no one intereferes in our policy...I just saw Europe try to fuck with our Presidential race...the Nazis still fuck with it...the Muslims fuck with it...Israel fucks with it...

Everyone fucks with it...don't act like we are the only ones that do that.

Everyone tries to subvert our elections and foreign policy here...

You don't think the Russians backed political parties and groups here in the US? You are silly.

[Clandestino]

Honestly, I don't believe the "World" hates the U.S.A.

[whottt]

If you paid attention to our last political race, Usama was recruiting Democrat votes with threats...

We told him to get fucked....IF he had succeeded it would have been due to the idiots on our own soil...

[smeagol]

Joe...you need to get together with smeagol...according to him all we do is meddle in the affairs of other countries...while you are saying we don't...which is it, liberal?

And a Semper Fi won't save you this time, back it up.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said "all the US does is meddle in other countries affairs". But is is known to do have done it a number of times.

Look whottt, my biggest thing with the US is not military. I'm against the war with Iraq, but I'm happy Saddam was deposed. And if democracy can be installed in the Middle East because of what the US did, I will be the first one to say I was wrong. I'm not as stubborn as some of the ST.com posters, who cannot accept when they are wrong. I have done it more than once, and I would do it again.

My biggest problem with the US has to do with trade barriers. America is always telling the World they support free trade and that everybody has to open their countries to commerce. Well, guess what? that's fucking baloney.

The US (and europe for that matter) will impose tariffs on a number of products if local producers of that product have a big enough lobby in DC. Today I opened the paper and I read that the US is imposing tariffs on Brazilian OJ. The US, togetgher with Europe, pays huge subsidies to their farmers literally killing the chance 3rd World farmers have to compete in the Wordl economy.

I also read that Chuck Schummer wants China to open their economy to American companies two weeks after they made it impossible for that Chinese oil company to buy Unocal.

I can live with the US imposing their political will by force if they would only level the playing field when it comes to international trade.

[smeagol]

I thought you said you weren't a socialist?
It's funny I have to fight with you on these matters when the fact is when I'm in Argentina I'm the one who always defends the US.

I am not a socialist. I don't like socialism and I hate communism. I have dealt with communists much more often than you have. My country is full of them. In Argentina, we have a leftist government the likes of which you would never ever have in the US. Even if that lunatic Michael Moore became president.

That does not mean I don't like it when the US helps a dictator tumble a democratically elected president. The irony is Chile would never be where it is if it weren't for Pinochet.


Man that was the fucking coldwar...I don't think America has ever claimed to be a friend of Socialism or Communism...if that's what you are then I totally understand why you hate us...

I don't hate you. How many times do I have to say this. Just because I don't agree with some US policies doesn't mean I hate you. Can you please take note of this for you next posts?


You are smart to hate us, because we are your arch fucking enemy if that's what you are.
:depressed I don't hate you.


And I don't think we ever claimed we weren't...communism was at War with us just as much as we with it...and we had every right to defend ourselves against it.
Allende's government was socialism, not communism. Are you telling me the US wants to topple all the socialist European governments?

If you guys hate communism so much, why don't you kill Fidel once and for all. I would second that.



You act like no one intereferes in our policy...I just saw Europe try to fuck with our Presidential race...the Nazis still fuck with it...the Muslims fuck with it...Israel fucks with it...
So all these people assassinated an American president?


Everyone fucks with it...don't act like we are the only ones that do that.

Everyone tries to subvert our elections and foreign policy here...

You don't think the Russians backed political parties and groups here in the US? You are silly.
Huh?

Again have these groups sent covert militia into the US and helped kill a president?

[JoeChalupa]

Honestly, I don't believe the "World" hates the U.S.A.

I concur.

[smeagol]

Honestly, I don't believe the "World" hates the U.S.A.
I agree. I said dislike and I believe that is true. You guys need to get out of the US and hear first hand how people see you.

[I can already see the responses from some of you: "Who the fuck cares what the rest of the World thinks of us?"]

[Guru of Nothing]

Huh?

We are talking about countries meddling in other countries affairs the way the US has done since WWII.

WTF has political entities meddling in people's affairs have to do with anything?

Smeagol is Argentinian for Mcfly.

[Guru of Nothing]

I agree. I said dislike and I believe that is true. You guys need to get out of the US and hear first hand how people see you.

[I can already see the responses from some of you: "Who the fuck cares what the rest of the World thinks of us?"]

Who is "you guys?"

Care to compare with me all the locales you have visited?

Quit being so goddamn passive!

If you have a point to make, do so; spare me the "mean people suck" drivel.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't believe the majority of the world hates the US. I agree with Clandestino. I think the majority of the people out there would give their left nut to be here.

[boutons]

"I think the majority of the people out there would give their left nut to be here."

Would you like to bet your left nut on that?

[smeagol]

Who is "you guys?" .
What's so difficult about the phrase: "You guys". You speak Englih, don't you?

You guys is whoever thinks the US is the most popular country out there.



Care to compare with me all the locales you have visited?
Huh?


Quit being so goddamn passive!
Language barrier


If you have a point to make, do so; spare me the "mean people suck" drivel.
I've already made my point. What is your point?

The title of the thread is a question. Try to answer it instead of posting systematic attacks against me.

[smeagol]

Smeagol is Argentinian for Mcfly.
Huh?

Ok, if you say so.

[Clandestino]

I agree. I said dislike and I believe that is true. You guys need to get out of the US and hear first hand how people see you.

[I can already see the responses from some of you: "Who the fuck cares what the rest of the World thinks of us?"]

i lived overseas for a long time and MOST of the people didn't dislike the U.S.A. They didn't agree with all of our thinking, but they didn't not like us.

[Jelly]

i lived overseas for a long time and MOST of the people didn't dislike the U.S.A. They didn't agree with all of our thinking, but they didn't not like us.

My experience has been different. I've been to about a dozen different countries and in pretty much every one of them I had to listen to a lot of anti-American rants. And all this was before Iraq. They usually will say that it's because of our foreign policy, but when you question people more indepth they don't seem to be very educated on our foreign policy beyond the generic America as world police stuff. Europeans might bring up examples of our interferance in various countries but these same people are totally disinterested and/or unaware of Europe's interference all over the world, particularly Asia (India, Indochina) , the mid-east (a lot of the Palestine/Israel BS can be pinned on Britain) and Africa. I've met French people who lambast the U.S. over Vietnam but when you want to talk about their Vietnam war or Algeria or the greenpeace boat they blew up in Australia it's "lalalala....I can't hear you....lalalal". There is hardly a powerful nation on earth that can complain about the U.S. meddling in other people's business. All nations will interfere in any matter that is of strategic significance to that nation to whatever degree their power allows them.

I think the dislike of America comes down to jealously, envy, insecurity and fear.

[JoeChalupa]

Well when I was in the Corps in '79 and was overseas the US was the envy of many people. I remember when I was in Spain and made quite a few good friends they all wanted to come to the US. Not necessarily to stay and live but to experience what the US was all about.

I loved Spain, the women are gorgeous, and the food is fantastic.

I don't think it is really a hate for the US as it is the current policy and administration. But when I'm overseas I defended the US to the max baby.

[Jelly]

Well when I was in the Corps in '79 and was overseas the US was the envy of many people. I remember when I was in Spain and made quite a few good friends they all wanted to come to the US. Not necessarily to stay and live but to experience what the US was all about.

I loved Spain, the women are gorgeous, and the food is fantastic.

I don't think it is really a hate for the US as it is the current policy and administration. But when I'm overseas I defended the US to the max baby.

I agree that most people, even those that bitch constantly about this country, would love to come here..even if they won't admit it. Last year, I had a house guest from Britain who did nothing for an entire week but complain about how Americans were all a bunch of stupid, superficial, greedy, fat, materialistic, war-mongering, ignorant morons. He hated our houses (ugly and generic), our cars (pieces of crap), our restaurants (horrible food), our television programs, and our "artificial, phony" friendliness. And, of course, he had a few things to say about our foreign policy. I couldn't wait til we dropped him off at the airport. A few weeks later he contacted me about hooking him up with some job prospects over here..."anywhere" in the states would be great he said.

[whottt]

I've been to Russia(St Petersburg and Moscow) and they were pretty pro American...in fact I remember seeing a few people walking around with shirts with the American flag on them. But the Russians do not seem like a happy people period...and a guy tried to pick my pocket. I guess I'd be bitter too if the major staple of my diet was beets. Poor bastards.

I will never go to Russia again and I don't blame them for wanting out.

I've also been to Hong Kong and it was one of the most friendly places I have ever been too...it also felt like I was stepping 10 years into the future it was so modern. True it wasn't mainland China and was still only a few years from British rule...but it was pretty friendly, and my buddy that lives there said he has never seen any anti-Americanism and the people are always amazingly friendly and very polite. I want to go to mainland China someday.


When I was in College I went to Egypt and I didn't encounter any there either...in fact everyone I talked to was very interested in America and wanted to come here, and everyone spoke English......now I know there are people that hate America there but I didn't see any.
FWIW...in all these places...I never had any problem finding people that spoke English, not even Russia. Everyone spoke it in Russia and they all seemed highly educated but very poor. It was weird.

[Jelly]

I've been to Russia(St Petersburg and Moscow) and they were pretty pro American...in fact I remember seeing a few people walking around with shirts with the American flag on them. But the Russians do not seem like a happy people period...and a guy tried to pick my pocket. I guess I'd be bitter too if the major staple of my diet was beets. Poor bastards.

I will never go to Russia again and I don't blame them for wanting out.

I've also been to Hong Kong and it was one of the most friendly places I have ever been too...it also felt like I was stepping 10 years into the future it was so modern. True it wasn't mainland China and was still only a few years from British rule...but it was pretty friendly, and my buddy that lives there said he has never seen any anti-Americanism and the people are always amazingly friendly and very polite. I want to go to mainland China someday.


When I was in College I went to Egypt and I didn't encounter any there either...in fact everyone I talked to was very interested in America and wanted to come here, and everyone spoke English......now I know there are people that hate America there but I didn't see any.
FWIW...in all these places...I never had any problem finding people that spoke English, not even Russia. Everyone spoke it in Russia and they all seemed highly educated but very poor. It was weird.

I guess my problem was spending the most of my time abroad in Western Europe. They're the ones with the biggest stick up their butt.

[smeagol]

It's not hate and it's not the entire World. But there is a majority out there that does not like America. Maybe its the foreign policy, maybe its envy. I don't really know. But it is a fact.

[whottt]

And just maybe some of it is propaganda?

I see the US getting criticized for a lot of things that prove to be false.

[whottt]

Smeagol...before you automatically assume that all these countries that hate us having altruistic motives....

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4001


Read that thread....

You guys say we lied about the WMD....

You tell me what in the fuck Saddam was doing getting guidance systems in the OFF program.

You are so quick to assume the American Govt is dirty...

Have you noticed the UN guys pleading guilty to bribery lately?

Have you noticed Kofi dismissed the head of the OFF program?

Now who the fuck was dirty on this?

Go look and see who gets most of their Oil from the Mid-east....who is nearly entirely dependent on it....

It aint the US.

[smeagol]

I never said the US was dirty. I simply don't agree with some of their policies (mainly commercial and to some degree military/foreign or whatever you want to call it, although I've said I'm willing to live with the latter if the change they former). This is not even being anti-American. Many Americans don't agree with their government’s policies. And they proly love America as much as you do.

By the way, I love many other things about America (almost everything else).

But I am convinced that the rest of the World looks at America with suspicion. I know this first hand. What I hear and see in Argentina is pretty much representative of what happens elsewhere. And my experience is not related to a holiday in Russia or in Hong Kong.

[whottt]

Smeagol....we look at the rest of the world with suspicion too....we can't figure out why all these countries we liberated and give aid too turned on us....

But it's not like we're handwringing over it...I just think most Americans don't have as positive or as friendly a view of the rest of the world as we used too...the facade has dropped.

And I think W's re-election was our message to the rest of the world about what we think of the World's attitude after we were attacked.


Iraq is going to work out though....and the middle east will be the better off for it...the socialists will rewrite history though to make sure America doesn't get the credit it deserves for cleaning out the filth of that region.


Meanwhile...it'll be cold day in hell before I let my country go to the aid of France again...not one more soldier will ever spill his blood on that hate filled country....I don't care if it's Satan himself they capitulate to this time around...not one more soldier will ever give his life in the aid of that country. I will be the most anti-war protesting motherfucker who ever lived the day we try it.

And the Somalians can starve for all I fucking care...idiots.
We better not give them any aid. Of any kind. Except a nuke when their scumbags get out of hand.

[Clandestino]

i was in western europe for 6 years...never had any problems. and all seemed to love america and want to come visit... like i said, they didn't like all our policies, but overall, they liked america.

and the chicks especially... they all wanted to marry an american!

[Guru of Nothing]

I've already made my point. What is your point?

The title of the thread is a question. Try to answer it instead of posting systematic attacks against me.

Please, I'm not attacking you (you being one who likes to take frequent passive-aggressive pot shots at other posters).

Your arguments are weak.

Comprende?

[boutons]

Spinmeister KH, with no experience in international diplomacy or at the State department, will fix everything up. The world will love the USA again, once they are spun around.

==============================================

Bush Confidante Begins Task of Repairing America's Image Abroad

By STEVEN R. WEISMAN

WASHINGTON, Aug. 20 - For years, President Bush has called on Karen P. Hughes, his confidante from Texas, to help devise replies to attacks from political foes. Now Ms. Hughes, installed at the State Department, plans to set up "rapid response" teams to counter bad news and defend administration policies around the globe.

The teams, to be set up in the Middle East and elsewhere, are one of several initiatives being prepared by Ms. Hughes, who took office this week as under secretary of public diplomacy. The initiatives are part of what Bush administration officials say will be an aggressive drive to repair America's poor image abroad, particularly in Muslim countries.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in an interview this week that the units would "work to deal with misinformation and misinterpretation." During the war in Afghanistan, Ms. Rice said, the administration discovered that it had to rebut "all kinds of lies about what we were doing."

For instance, Ms. Rice said, the administration discovered that allegations of Koran desecration at the Guantánamo Bay detention center, particularly what turned out to be an unfounded report of a Koran being flushed down a toilet, were spread throughout the media in Muslim countries before the United States could respond.

"What we found with rapid response is it does have to be 24-hour and at least a lot of it has to be in the field, not back in Washington, just because of the nature of the time cycle," she said.

In addition, State Department officials say, Ms. Hughes, a former television reporter, plans to lead an interagency "public diplomacy" operating group, including top public affairs officials at the Pentagon, and to change the way Foreign Service officers are evaluated for promotion, placing more emphasis on public relations skills.

Ms. Rice suggested further that the administration would increase funds for educational exchanges and try to make it easier to get visas for such programs. This year, the administration has asked Congress for $430 million to bring students, academics, cultural figures and others to the United States, and to send Americans abroad, a 20 percent increase from last year.

In recent years, State Department officials say, proportionately more of these programs have been focused on the Middle East and South Asia, which now account for about 25 percent of the financing.

Though President Bush and Ms. Rice promised a revamped "public diplomacy" drive in January, it has taken months for Ms. Hughes to begin her job, partly because she has wanted to get her son ready for college. In the summer of 2002, Ms. Hughes resigned from the White House to take her family back to Texas.

Ten days ago, Ms. Hughes laid out her plans for public diplomacy at a meeting with Mr. Bush at the president's ranch in Crawford, Tex. She was joined by Ms. Rice and Ms. Hughes's deputy, Dina Powell, a former White House personnel director. But she has declined interview requests, saying that she needs more time to flesh out her ideas.

Other officials, asking not to be identified because the plans are not final, provided some details, including information about what they said were Ms. Hughes's plans to travel to Europe and the Middle East and to do as much listening as talking on her trips.

She has met with Muslim students, clerics and academics in Washington and with ambassadors of Muslim countries. Early in the week, she directed the State Department to send new summaries of American policies on the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the Iraqi constitution to embassies overseas.

Various independent reports on the problem of public diplomacy have said that most of America's image problems stem from American policies, like the detainees at Guantánamo Bay and support for Israel.

Ms. Rice, in the interview on Wednesday, said that in the future, more weight would be given to public diplomacy in the policy-making process but that this did not mean that the United States would shut down the Guantánamo Bay detention center.

"What I don't want to imply is that we're going to change policy because it's unpopular," Ms. Rice said. "It's a hard problem. Public diplomacy isn't going to help us with the fact that there's still some hard problems that we're going to have to deal with."

Some State Department officials involved in public diplomacy for many years say that Ms. Hughes's arrival will simply reinforce practices already being carried out.

Among the officials consulted by Ms. Hughes is Edward P. Djerejian, a former ambassador and White House spokesman, who headed a task force that concluded in 2003 that hostility toward the United States had reached "shocking" levels.

Mr. Djerejian said that in talking with Ms. Hughes and Ms. Rice, it was clear that they understood that roughly 80 percent of the explanation for the poor American image stemmed from American policies, but that much could be done to improve the communication of those policies to affect the other 20 percent.

He said he expected that Ms. Hughes would more closely track what was said about the United States on the television networks Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya and in other Arab news media and try to counter bad publicity quickly. The effort to respond to reports on Koran desecration, he said, was "a disaster."

Some State Department officials said part of the problem in that episode was the difficulty of having the State Department defending policies on detaining suspected terrorists when the policies were made by the Pentagon.

Officials at Al Jazeera, for example, said they invited a Pentagon spokesman to discuss the Koran allegations but could not get anyone to go on the air. Pentagon public affairs officials countered that they were unaware of the requests from Al Jazeera.

Mr. Djerejian said his committee had recommended that a high-level official at the White House be in charge of the administration's public diplomacy but dropped that idea when Ms. Hughes was appointed at the State Department because of her closeness to the White House.

"Conceptually and strategically they are seized with the importance of this problem," said Mr. Djerejian, referring to Ms. Hughes and Ms. Rice. "They have the ability to do something about it because they have the ear of the president."

================================================

Rice's "we won't stop doing things because they are unpopular" sounds very much like Nixon's "I don' do the popular thing, I do thing because they are right".

The hubris of the Repugs, and their unending efforts to insult the intelligence of everydoy, are infinite. The people are much better informed now, from a wide variety of sources, not only in the USA, but everywhere. The Repugs really think they can change the world's opinion by countering "bad publicity". The bad publicity is based on what the USA does, not what the USA spinmeisters spin.

The Repugs have huge problem right here in the should-be-but-isn't-sympathetic USA with all the "bad publicity" driving shrub's approval rating to historic lows for 2nd-term all presidents, and constantly turning more than half the USA against the bogus war.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

People like Whott is why the world hates the US.

[smeagol]

Please, I'm not attacking you (you being one who likes to take frequent passive-aggressive pot shots at other posters).
That's funny from a guy who likes to post stuff such as:


Smeagol is Argentinian for Mcfly.

In any case, I usually take pot shots at posters who attack me.



Your arguments are weak.
And your counter-arguments are non-existent.



Comprende?
Half of the time, when you post stuff like this:


Name for me one political entity that does not meddle in other people's affairs.

in response to the question, "Why does the rest of the World dislike America?", I and probably half the posters here, do not comprende what the fuck you are trying to imply.

Comprende?

[cecil collins]

People like Whott is why the world hates the US.

The best answer in the whole thread. All of Whott's posts are full of anger and superiority. You didn't write the Declaration of Independence asshole. Being born in this country, in no way makes you better than anyone else. Also, why do you say that smeagol would have no right to criticize the country if it were his choice to be here? Do new immigrants not have the right to criticize a country? How about this, you don't decide what rights anyone has, and I feel you are far from an authorithy on the matter.

I also agree the guru is childishly attacking the way smeagol makes his points. I don't know if he wants to bully smeagol or what, but it just seems like he wants an argument. What's your point.

[smeagol]

The best answer in the whole thread. All of Whott's posts are full of anger and superiority. You didn't write the Declaration of Independence asshole. Being born in this country, in no way makes you better than anyone else. Also, why do you say that smeagol would have no right to criticize the country if it were his choice to be here? Do new immigrants not have the right to criticize a country? How about this, you don't decide what rights anyone has, and I feel you are far from an authorithy on the matter.

I also agree the guru is childishly attacking the way smeagol makes his points. I don't know if he wants to bully smeagol or what, but it just seems like he wants an argument. What's your point.
Thanks Cecil :tu

(what do I owe you?) :rollin

[Guru of Nothing]

I also agree the guru is childishly attacking the way smeagol makes his points. I don't know if he wants to bully smeagol or what, but it just seems like he wants an argument. What's your point.

My point is Smeagol has a tendency to post topics like this with a tear in his beer, and then he runs circles in the ring like a boxer with no game.

[smeagol]

My point is Smeagol has a tendency to post topics like this with a tear in his beer, and then he runs circles in the ring like a boxer with no game.
I've only started five topics in the political forum. In all of them I have tried to convey my thoughts and opinions about a certain topic as honestly as I could. And I have always tried to do my best to try to back up my opinions. So I do not really follow you (what a surprise!) when you say "tear in his beer" and "runs circles in the ring like a boxer with no game".

But you GON have not really contribute much to the threads I have started.

There's the first I ever started in the political forum:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7996&page=1&pp=26 (http://)

where your contributions where:


What we have here is a failure to communicate.

and


http://www.tbn.org/about/newsletter/0102/010205.jpg

Leggo of my Eggo

and


And quit bringing God into the conversation. Does your God sit idle while billions suffer?

Then there was another thread where I comment about Live 8:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20932 (http://)

where you enlighted everybody with this post:


Eliminating poverty with money is like eliminating obesity with guilt.

and this other one


Translation - Mean people suck.

The third thread I started was about the Chinese trying to buy Unocal:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22035 (http://)

and you again enlighted us with a witty comment:


Well! The thread title made me hungry.

Surprisignly, in the Michael Moore thread I started you had no nuggets of knowledge to share with all of us:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22236&page=1&pp=26 (http://)

So according to you I might have no game, but boy does your game suck baboon's ass!

There are guys I don't agree with on many issues, such as whottt, scott, Manny, Yoni and others, but atleast I can engage with them in some honest debate. As for you, well let the record speak for itself.

Actually the MVP (most valuable post) you ever posted in one of the threads I started was to scold me because I brought up God in my posts (as if it were not allowed).

So if you don't like the topics I start, simply don't post in those threads. But if you feel the uncontrolable urge to post in the threads I start, bring a fucking thought . . . bring something to the table, not just posts such as how I'm the Argentine McFly or getting mad because I believe in God.

[Jelly]

Smeagol,
for what it's worth, I have no idea what the Argentine McFly or Tear in Beer stuff is supposed to mean either.

[smeagol]

Smeagol,
for what it's worth, I have no idea what the Argentine McFly or Tear in Beer stuff is supposed to mean either.
Jelly, I believe his McFly comment had to do with Michael Fox's character in Back to the Future (or maybe Marty McFly's dad).

The other one about the beer, well I guess its GON lingo.

[Jelly]

Jelly, I believe his McFly comment had to do with Michael Fox's character in Back to the Future (or maybe Marty McFly's dad).

The other one about the beer, well I guess its GON lingo.

I never saw Back to The Future. But maybe you'll find some clues to the other metaphor with this little country song...

There's a tear in my beer
'cause I'm cryin' for you,dear
you are on my lonely mind.
Into these last nine beers
I have shed a million tears.
You are on my lonely mind
I'm gonna keep drinkin'
until I'm petrified.
And then maybe these tears
will leave my eyes.
There's a tear in my beer
cause I'm crying' for you dear
You are on my lonely mind.

Last night I walked the floor
and the night before
You are on my lonely mind.
It seems my life is through
and I'm so doggone blue
You are on my lonely mind.
I'm gonna keep drinkin'
till I can't move a toe
and then maybe my heart
won't hurt me so.
There's a tear in my beer
cause I'm cryin' for you dear
You are on my lonely mind.

Lord, I've tried and I've tried
But my tears I can't hide
You are on my lonely mind.
All these blues that I've found
Have really got me down
You are on my lonely mind
I'm gonna keep drinkin'
till I can't even think
Cause in the last week
I ain't slept a wink
There's a tear in my beer
cause I'm crying for you dear
You are on my lonely mind.

Good ole Hank Williams Jr.. Gotta love that man :drunk

[Dos]

I am sure if we brought all our troops home from all over the world and pretty much only cared about us... (like some liberals want) the world would either be nuking one another or begging us to go protect some poor defenseless country... come on you can't have it both ways.. but I guess people oversea's forget their is this f***ing thing called the UN that usually is begging us for money and troops....

[boutons]

"pretty much only cared about us... (like some liberals want)"

it was the FUCKING REPUGS years ago who:

1. didn't want to engage in the world, no internationlism, fuck diplomatic entanglements like NATO and UN, and shrub said in the 2000 campaign that he doesn't do "nation building"

2. wanted to pass a constitutional amendment requiring balanced federal budgets.

Now, a few years later, the Repugs have led the US into monstrous nation breaking/building exerises in Afghanistana and Iraq.

and with tax cuts for the rich and corps, and run-of-the-mill pork insanities, indebting the US for decades at a level as bad as any S. American tin-pot basket case.

ie, the Repugs are "having it both ways", choosoing whichever way today pays them the most money and power, and exposing themselves as hypocrites.

[Guru of Nothing]

I've only started five topics in the political forum. In all of them I have tried to convey my thoughts and opinions about a certain topic as honestly as I could. And I have always tried to do my best to try to back up my opinions.

I disagree. Read below and highlight for me the thoughts and opinions you conveyed.



Why is it that the rest of the World has “issues” with the US?

Knowing that the US represents freedom and democracy, why is it that so many people are suspicious of the US or just flat out hate Americans?

I have my own ideas but I would like to hear the American POV on this issue.

Look Smeagol, I'm sure you are a nice guy, and I really don't want to argue - AND, I understand there is a language barrier, as you put it; but, you come across as kind of a whiner (you wallor in emotion). Again, I'm probably repeating myself here, but it strikes me that the gist of your message is that "the U.S. is mean and I don't like that."

My point (and I do have a point!) is that people, at their core, are the same the world over, yet you put all your eggs of negativity into one basket - the U.S. government is unsatisfactory, while ignoring the universal truth that people tend to address the world through their own self-interests. THIS IS NOT UNIQUELY AMERICAN.

If I am not making sense, or if you are not getting my point, fine. I'll cut bait.

Have a nice day. If you are ever in Mississippi, holler and I will buy you a beer.

Adios.

[smeagol]

Look Smeagol, I'm sure you are a nice guy, and I really don't want to argue - AND, I understand there is a language barrier, as you put it; but, you come across as kind of a whiner (you wallor in emotion). Again, I'm probably repeating myself here, but it strikes me that the gist of your message is that "the U.S. is mean and I don't like that."
I agree with you. I have focused more on what I think the negative aspects of the US government are. I know there is lots of positive things the US government does, but who the hell would like to debate those points??!!!

If I start a topic saying unemployment is at record lows, or another one stating that inflation is contained and economic growth is a robust levels, I guess I would get five responses max. If I start another topic on the war in Afghanistan, which I believe is the right war to fight, again, not much of a debate because 95% of the posters would agree with me.

Therefore, to get the debate going, I have to start more controversial posts .


My point (and I do have a point!) is that people, at their core, are the same the world over, yet you put all your eggs of negativity into one basket - the U.S. government is unsatisfactory, while ignoring the universal truth that people tend to address the world through their own self-interests. THIS IS NOT UNIQUELY AMERICAN. .
Again I agree with you when you say “people, at their core, are the same the world over”. But if you did read my posts closely you would have noticed that my issue with the US boils down to two points:

1) International trade, and 2) Foreign policy.

Regarding the former, which is the most important one to me, I have blamed Europe and Japan as much as I have blamed the US. So I have not put my negativity basket only on the US. Actually I blame Europe more than the US for those damn subsidies to agricultural products that hurt my country so much.


Have a nice day. If you are ever in Mississippi, holler and I will buy you a beer.

Adios.
Thanks. I’ll take the offer. I don’t drink much alcohol, though.

[Dos]

I think pretty much of the hate is just because we are the biggest, baddest MOFO's in the world... we consume more, we waste more, we don't give a rat's ass about the world... hell about half the kids in this country couldn't tell you where Iraq is on a map, but I am sure they could show you how to win at HALO 2, not to mention that nearly half of this country doesn't vote... and is pretty non-exsistent when it comes to local politics.. so yeah we are self absorbed we don't give a rat's ass about much.. maybe about just what are we going to eat next and what we are going to buy next... but if you attack our country you will definetly feel the wrath of the united states of america... except maybe for a few ultra liberals that somehow think we deserved it.... but they have that right to believe that... so I will just go watch my south park season 5 dvd now and maybe play some tiger woods PGA golf later... why because I can .. because that is all that concerns me today.. after working all weekend... it's all I can think off...

[Extra Stout]

I agree with everything Extra Stout said. Though for a conservative, I'm surprised how admiring ES is of Europe's public infrastructure.
Eh, just different priorities. If we're forced to live on top of one another like the Euros do because of high energy prices and land use restrictions, then we'll probably gain their appreciation for public spaces.

I don't think their way is bad, but I just like our way better.

Oh, whottt, I think MI6 made up the story that Mossadegh was making koochie noises to the Russians and that they, along with the CIA in an operation headed by Teddy Roosevelt's grandson, fomented the revolution themselves. Kermit Roosevelt masterminded the street protests. It was all about protecting British oil interests. It was called "Operation Ajax."

In fact, the only reason it took until 1953 to happen is because Truman kept rebuffing Churchill's advances.

The memory of 1953 is why the first thing the revolutionaries did in 1979 is go after the American embassy to prevent the CIA from executing a counterrevolution to restore the Shah.

That was the most idiotic thing Ike ever did, and he did it because WC was his war buddy. What Ike got in return was that when the Iranian oil industry was denationalized in 1955, some American oil companies got a piece of the new British consortium (along with the French and the Dutch).

[bigzak25]

i know i'm late to this party, but i'd venture to say that the majority of the world actually loves the usa. the negative has a tendency to be what the media focuses on, big suprise there, i know.

[Jelly]

Zak,
it would be nice if that were true, but it just isn't. Practically any opinion survey will show that the rest of the world doesn't like us very much. Recently, there was a lot of press (especially overseas) about the findings of a poll that indicated that people in 11 out of 16 countries viewed China in a more favorable light than America. But take heart, we are much loved in India!

here's a link to some recent polling data:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=247

[MaNuMaNiAc]

My experience has been different. I've been to about a dozen different countries and in pretty much every one of them I had to listen to a lot of anti-American rants. And all this was before Iraq. They usually will say that it's because of our foreign policy, but when you question people more indepth they don't seem to be very educated on our foreign policy beyond the generic America as world police stuff. Europeans might bring up examples of our interferance in various countries but these same people are totally disinterested and/or unaware of Europe's interference all over the world, particularly Asia (India, Indochina) , the mid-east (a lot of the Palestine/Israel BS can be pinned on Britain) and Africa. I've met French people who lambast the U.S. over Vietnam but when you want to talk about their Vietnam war or Algeria or the greenpeace boat they blew up in Australia it's "lalalala....I can't hear you....lalalal". There is hardly a powerful nation on earth that can complain about the U.S. meddling in other people's business. All nations will interfere in any matter that is of strategic significance to that nation to whatever degree their power allows them.

I think the dislike of America comes down to jealously, envy, insecurity and fear.
amen to that! I think Jelly hit right on the nail!! the problem is you can't deny that the US does meddle in a lot of people's business, even where they're not wanted. I agree though, that most powerfull nations would do the same, and actually do. Still, can't blame people for being resentfull of that side of the argument. However, I do believe that a lot of the resentment towards the US is unfounded.

[Jelly]

thank you Manumania. Finally someone agrees with me on something. :lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Smeagol....we look at the rest of the world with suspicion too....we can't figure out why all these countries we liberated and give aid too turned on us....

But it's not like we're handwringing over it...I just think most Americans don't have as positive or as friendly a view of the rest of the world as we used too...the facade has dropped.

And I think W's re-election was our message to the rest of the world about what we think of the World's attitude after we were attacked.


Iraq is going to work out though....and the middle east will be the better off for it...the socialists will rewrite history though to make sure America doesn't get the credit it deserves for cleaning out the filth of that region.


Meanwhile...it'll be cold day in hell before I let my country go to the aid of France again...not one more soldier will ever spill his blood on that hate filled country....I don't care if it's Satan himself they capitulate to this time around...not one more soldier will ever give his life in the aid of that country. I will be the most anti-war protesting motherfucker who ever lived the day we try it.

And the Somalians can starve for all I fucking care...idiots.
We better not give them any aid. Of any kind. Except a nuke when their scumbags get out of hand.
There is so much ignorance in this post, I'm surpriced you could fit it in only one!

First of all

And I think W's re-election was our message to the rest of the world about what we think of the World's attitude after we were attacked.
I can't help but laugh at that statement! The US depends on the rest of the world more than the rest of the world depends on the US! you think that by electing Bush you'll be able to scare the world into thinking your way? well think again. All Bush is doing is alienating the shit out of "the rest of the world" with this "either you're with us or against us" shit! Like it or not, you live in this world with everyone else, and you will have to learn to fucking coexist.


Iraq is going to work out though....and the middle east will be the better off for it...the socialists will rewrite history though to make sure America doesn't get the credit it deserves for cleaning out the filth of that region.
you must be able to tell the future then, because everything points to an American retreat from Iraq due to economic issues and public disconformity! You think saying "Iraq is going to work out" makes everything alright? its a hell of a lot more complicated than that sister.

You want to know why there are people that don't like the US? its not due to your ideals, which I think most people agree with. Its because of people like you, and that "its either our way or the highway" mentality. Trust me, you would do well to get along with your neighbors, and get of your high horse Whottt.

[word]

Ironically, one of the reasons they hate the US because of it's seemingly lack of morals, which the extreme left cherishs and are the very people that aren't willing to fight them.

[whottt]

There is so much ignorance in this post, I'm surpriced you could fit it in only one!


Said the guy from a country where a 3rd great education is considered scholarly.


First of all

snip...




I can't help but laugh at that statement! The US depends on the rest of the world more than the rest of the world depends on the US! you think that by electing Bush you'll be able to scare the world into thinking your way? well think again. All Bush is doing is alienating the shit out of "the rest of the world" with this "either you're with us or against us" shit! Like it or not, you live in this world with everyone else, and you will have to learn to fucking coexist.

Who died and left you leader of the rest of the world...Nazi sympathizing scumbag.






you must be able to tell the future then, because everything points to an American retreat from Iraq due to economic issues and public disconformity! You think saying "Iraq is going to work out" makes everything alright? its a hell of a lot more complicated than that sister.

How would you know?

Your country gets it's ass kicked by the concept of peaceful transfer of power.


You want to know why there are people that don't like the US?

Actually I don't...I tend to think there a ton of idiots like yourself in the rest of the world...and therefor consider them lost causes...

In fact...you and your kind have pretty much lead me to conclude the Argentina is a country full of fucking assholes...

Fuck your opinion on my county.

I don't give a fuck what you think about it...mmmkay?



Trust me, you would do well to get along with your neighbors, and get of your high horse Whottt.


Said the hypocrite with the Argentina flag next to his name....


How dare you like your country...other than provding reguge to Nazis and defaulting on the largest loan in history...what has it ever done besides produce a bunch of assholes like yourself that think they are experts on everything, specifically my country.

When you doctors learn to behave when a celebrity visits a hospital...then you can lecture me.

You're a hater...and you're hardly unique.

It doesn't take a lot of brain power to do...

Nazi.

[JoeChalupa]

Ironically, one of the reasons they hate the US because of it's seemingly lack of morals, which the extreme left cherishs and are the very people that aren't willing to fight them.

BS. There are plenty of conservatives on the right who lack morals and who don't have any of their children willing to fight them.
I know a set of twins as an example.

[j-6]

defaulting on the largest loan in history

Hey whottt, not to change the subject, but wasn't the largest single loan in history given out to Brazil? Or did you mean largest defaulted loan in history (what I don't know about)?

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[whottt]

Largest defaulted debt repayment in history.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107288.html

In Dec. 1999 Fernando de la Rua became president. Despite the introduction of several tough economic austerity plans, by 2001 the recession slid into its third year. The IMF gave Argentina $13.7 billion in emergency aid in Jan. 2001 and $8 billion in Aug. 2001. The international help was not enough, however, and by the end of 2001, Argentina verged on economic collapse. Rioters protesting government austerity measures forced de la Rua to resign in Dec. 2001. Argentina then defaulted on its $155 billion foreign debt payments, the largest such default in history.


Maybe I was too harsh on him...I hope he doesn't kidnap my family.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Said the guy from a country where a 3rd great education is considered scholarly.



snip...





Who died and left you leader of the rest of the world...Nazi sympathizing scumbag.







How would you know?

Your country gets it's ass kicked by the concept of peaceful transfer of power.



Actually I don't...I tend to think there a ton of idiots like yourself in the rest of the world...and therefor consider them lost causes...

In fact...you and your kind have pretty much lead me to conclude the Argentina is a country full of fucking assholes...

Fuck your opinion on my county.

I don't give a fuck what you think about it...mmmkay?





Said the hypocrite with the Argentina flag next to his name....


How dare you like your country...other than provding reguge to Nazis and defaulting on the largest loan in history...what has it ever done besides produce a bunch of assholes like yourself that think they are experts on everything, specifically my country.

When you doctors learn to behave when a celebrity visits a hospital...then you can lecture me.

You're a hater...and you're hardly unique.

It doesn't take a lot of brain power to do...

Nazi.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Thank you Whottt. That post now allows me to watch you under a whole new light. I now know how ignorant and simple minded you are. Feel free to spout all the insults you want, I know its just to cover for that monster insequirity you have looming over you. You're a sad little man Whottt, and I thank you, sincerely! I thank you for making me realize that I don't have to continue arguing with someone so close minded and uneducated.

P.S. http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I still can't get over you calling me Nazi! LOL too funny

[whottt]

No...I just get sick of every foreign hypocrite in the world coming here sporting their national flag and sounding like an outtake from farenheit 911 taking a piss on my country...

Amazing how you seem so willing to talk about how fucked my country is but lose interest once the subject turns to you country...

It's been well documented that the government of your country sympathized with the Nazis in WWII by the way...at least they did until they saw who was going to win...

You must have a lot of French people there.

Damn...I think I am getting the hang of this blind hatred thing...can that, "why does the US dislike the rest of the world" question be long in coming?

[j-6]

Largest defaulted debt repayment in history.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107288.html

In Dec. 1999 Fernando de la Rua became president. Despite the introduction of several tough economic austerity plans, by 2001 the recession slid into its third year. The IMF gave Argentina $13.7 billion in emergency aid in Jan. 2001 and $8 billion in Aug. 2001. The international help was not enough, however, and by the end of 2001, Argentina verged on economic collapse. Rioters protesting government austerity measures forced de la Rua to resign in Dec. 2001. Argentina then defaulted on its $155 billion foreign debt payments, the largest such default in history.


Maybe I was too harsh on him...I hope he doesn't kidnap my family.


Gracias. Good little history read on that link, too. Nothing too heavy for those of you that might need a little background on Argentina.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No...I just get sick of every foreign hypocrite in the world coming here sporting their national flag and sounding like an outtake from farenheit 911 taking a piss on my country...

Amazing how you seem so willing to talk about how fucked my country is but lose interest once the subject turns to you country...

It's been well documented that the government of your country sympathized with the Nazis in WWII by the way...at least they did until they saw who was going to win...

You must have a lot of French people there.

Damn...I think I am getting the hang of this blind hatred thing...can that, "why does the US dislike the rest of the world" question be long in coming?
I know I said I wouldn't argue anymore with you Whottt, but I just can't help it, call me a sucker for lost causes. First of all, I never said I hated your country, I said I hated that "its our way or no way" attitude people like you have. You all of a sudden felt insulted, and decided to proceed and spout the first thing that you could think of about Argentina to try and insult me. Don't get upset if it doesn't work.

I'm don't have a problem discussing Argentina's problems, and I'm not a hypocrite. I say what I believe and I believe in what I say. You call me nazi because some Argentinian dictator back in the 1940s happened to side with the Nazis? you actually consider that to be an intelligent comment? by that line of thought, every German is a Nazi, every Italian is a fascist, and because you happened to have slavery, every American is a racist. Would you agree with that Whottt? I bet you would.

In fact, its funny that you call me a hater. Why don't you take a look back at the thread sweetheart? The only one being a blind hater is you, and yet, you just don't seem to grasp that concept.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

No...I just get sick of every foreign hypocrite in the world coming here sporting their national flag and sounding like an outtake from farenheit 911 taking a piss on my country...

Amazing how you seem so willing to talk about how fucked my country is but lose interest once the subject turns to you country...

It's been well documented that the government of your country sympathized with the Nazis in WWII by the way...at least they did until they saw who was going to win...

You must have a lot of French people there.

Damn...I think I am getting the hang of this blind hatred thing...can that, "why does the US dislike the rest of the world" question be long in coming?

*Cough* NASA rocket scientists...*cough*

[MaNuMaNiAc]

*Cough* NASA rocket scientists...*cough*
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

Thank you for reminding me! LOL I had forgotten about that! I'm curious as to what explanation Whottt has for Werner Von Braun's relocation to the US after WWII, should be interesting, seeing as though I'm a Nazi and all.

[jochhejaam]

I know I said I wouldn't argue anymore with you Whottt, but I just can't help it, call me a sucker for lost causes. .

Ummm...okay...if you insist, I'll oblige, you're a lost cause sucker. :lol


(Be careful whottt you ask for, you may get it).

[Jelly]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

Thank you for reminding me! LOL I had forgotten about that! I'm curious as to what explanation Whottt has for Werner Von Braun's relocation to the US after WWII, should be interesting, seeing as though I'm a Nazi and all.

You tell us why he's here. Don't you guys discuss this kind of stuff at your monthly Nazi meetings :spin

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You tell us why he's here. Don't you guys discuss this kind of stuff at your monthly Nazi meetings :spin
joke, right?

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

You tell us why he's here. Don't you guys discuss this kind of stuff at your monthly Nazi meetings :spin

Yes we do, while we drink Fanta Orange... :drunk

How do we get to the meetings? We drive a Ford....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yes we do, while we drink Fanta Orange... :drunk

How do we get to the meetings? We drive a Ford....
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_12_6.gif

[Jelly]

joke, right?

of course it's a joke, silly. Like I would ever call a fellow spurs fan a Nazi :lol

[smeagol]

Actually, whottt's initial comment about Argentina's default had a mistake in it. Th Argentine defaul was not on loans but on bonds. Loans, mainly with the IMF, were kept current.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

of course it's a joke, silly. Like I would ever call a fellow spurs fan a Nazi :lol
I knew it was... hehe

[Jelly]

In all seriousness, I don't think even Whott really believes it when he makes some of those remarks. I think he is just someone who enjoys a very combative style of debate and so he goes overboard sometimes. I know it's hard but try not to take it too seriously. (of course, if he said those things about my country, my blood would be boiling...oh well..)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

In all seriousness, I don't think even Whott really believes it when he makes some of those remarks. I think he is just someone who enjoys a very combative style of debate and so he goes overboard sometimes. I know it's hard but try not to take it too seriously. (of course, if he said those things about my country, my blood would be boiling...oh well..) don't worry, I know how Whottt is. I tend to get carried away myself sometimes. Remember when we had that discussion Jelly? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I look back now and laugh. You're alright Jelly http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smispin.gif

[smeagol]

thank you Manumania. Finally someone agrees with me on something. :lol
I also agree with your POV, Jelly.

[Jelly]

don't worry, I know how Whottt is. I tend to get carried away myself sometimes. Remember when we had that discussion Jelly? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I look back now and laugh. You're alright Jelly

ah yes...how could I forget....all those many weeks ago.... how you admired my level of debate, my intuitive commentary, my breadth of knowledge on the nuances of what exactly makes an international player. Yes...what a graceful and elegant discussion that was. Why can't everyone be so reasonable and understated and humble ? well, at least we tried to set an example. That's all we can do Manumania. :lol

You're alright too. Not at all the evil, satan-worshipping canibal I had you pegged for. ;)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

ah yes...how could I forget....all those many weeks ago.... how you admired my level of debate, my intuitive commentary, my breadth of knowledge on the nuances of what exactly makes an international player. Yes...what a graceful and elegant discussion that was. Why can't everyone be so reasonable and understated and humble ? well, at least we tried to set an example. That's all we can do Manumania. :lol

You're alright too. Not at all the evil, satan-worshipping canibal I had you pegged for. ;)
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

[whottt]

You are right smeagol...I got the bond default confused with the 800 mllion default to the World Bank...it's hard to keep track of Argentina's defaults...I just know it's America's fault...somehow...:rolleyes

[whottt]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

Thank you for reminding me! LOL I had forgotten about that! I'm curious as to what explanation Whottt has for Werner Von Braun's relocation to the US after WWII, should be interesting, seeing as though I'm a Nazi and all.


Werner Von Braun wasn't a Nazi.


Argentina however was...

Link:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/981109/latin_america.perons_na30a.html


Unoffical base of Nazi Operations in this hemisphere?

Indeed.

[whottt]

Uh Jelly...I appreciate the effort on my part...but unlike some...when I piss off posters from other countries it is intentional. So kindly don't aplogize for my lack of political correctness...


These fuckers feel quite content to share their opinion my country...I feel just as comfortable sharing mine about theirs...

I generally find it amusing that, because most countries don't drag their own laundry out for the world to see like America does...a lot of these feriners think their shit doesn't stink...when the reality is that usually a government controlled media has kept them ignorant...

Case in point France....and it's state controlled media.


Oh and I don't hate Argentina...I just hate some of it's policies.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Werner Von Braun wasn't a Nazi.


Arentina however was...

Link:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/981109/latin_america.perons_na30a.html


Unoffical base of Nazi Operations in this hemishphere?

Indeed. LOL, check again Whottt, Werner Von Braun joined the Nazi party in 1937, and was an officer of the SS or Schutzstaffel from 1940 'till the end of WWII. He worked for the Nazi's making V-2 rockets for use against the allies. His affiliation with the SS was later "covered up" by the US government in order to take advantage of his knowledge of rocketry for NASA. You should really check you facts before answering Whottt.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Oh and I don't hate Argentina...I just hate some of it's policies.
Really? what policies might those be?

[Jelly]

because the US presses its own agenda around the world for its own security and to gain wealth at the detriment of those in foriegn countries and even to the detriment of its own citizens.........we need to be careful, becasue china is growing into a super power and we see to be shrinking in the eyes if the rest of the world.....

China has made great progress in the past decade, but in terms of power they are no threat whatsoever to the United States. The U.S. will be the leading superpower for a very, very long time to come. Our foreign policy, like that of all other nations, will always center around our own interests first. Of course, we should still use our power to help improve living conditions for all the worlds citizens, not just Americans.

But China, uh-uh....they've got a long road ahead before they'll ever be thought of as a world power, much less superpower.

[danyel]

Seriously...do we even have policies?

btw Whottt, would you clearify something for me? I'm jewish and Argentinian, am I a Nazi too?

[smeagol]

whottt, to be honest with you, you can hate Argentina or its policies all you want. Actually, I hate many of Argentina's policies. In reality, I hate 90% of Argentina's policies over the course of my life (that's since 1971). Allowing some Nazis in the 40s enter the country and defaulting on our debt in 2002 is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of shitty things my government has done.

But the US has had (and still has) put forward some shitty policies. A large number of Americans feel this way. Many American posters here feel this way. I'm sorry it enrages you so much that some savages from Argentina have to break it out for you.

[Jelly]

[QUOTE=whottt]Uh Jelly...I appreciate the effort on my part...but unlike some...when I piss off posters from other countries it is intentional. So kindly don't aplogize for my lack of political correctness...

QUOTE]

well, I wasn't really apologizing for you. That would not be my place. I was just speculating on why I thought you said some of those things. I have a hard time believing you are as angry as you come across. So, no apology for you, just sort of theorizing. Guess my theory was wrong.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Seriously...do we even have policies?

btw Whottt, would you clearify something for me? I'm jewish and Argentinian, am I a Nazi too?

Yeah, me too, I guess I just hate myself!
:huh
*Runs to the bathroom for a razor*

"Now you die you jew!"

[MaNuMaNiAc]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_20.gif
Yeah, me too, I guess I just hate myself!
:huh
*Runs to the bathroom for a razor*

"Now you die you jew!"

[smeagol]

Just for whottt's information, Buenos Aires has the third largest Jewish community outside Israel.

So as somebody else said, labeling Argentines as Nazis because some idiot President in the 40s sympathized with the Nazis and Fascists is laughable.

Actually whottt, you criticized people for watching too many movies when forming their opinion about America and you have done the same thing with Argentina.

[j-6]

Just for whottt's information, Buenos Aires has the third largest Jewish community outside Israel.

No shit? Where are the other two?

[smeagol]

No shit? Where are the other two?
New York, obviously and I forget the other one. I read about this in the Jewish Meuseum in Mahattan.

[danyel]

New York, obviously and I forget the other one. I read about this in the Jewish Meuseum in Mahattan.

Probably Paris

[whottt]

LOL, check again Whottt, Werner Von Braun joined the Nazi party in 1937, and was an officer of the SS or Schutzstaffel from 1940 'till the end of WWII. He worked for the Nazi's making V-2 rockets for use against the allies. His affiliation with the SS was later "covered up" by the US government in order to take advantage of his knowledge of rocketry for NASA. You should really check you facts before answering Whottt.


No need to check my facts...he was in the German military before they went Nazi. The guy was a scientist and that was really all he cared about...I am not going to claim he was a champion of Democracy or anything, but he didn't seem to shed too many tears over the fall of the Reich and was only too happy to continue his work for an entirely different ideology...

Not one was going to kill this guy...and better us than the Russians.

Is it that hard to see?

[whottt]

Really? what policies might those be?


Political Schizophrenia and deadbeatism.

[whottt]

Seriously...do we even have policies?

btw Whottt, would you clearify something for me? I'm jewish and Argentinian, am I a Nazi too?


There were a lot of jews in Germany too....right around the time of the holocaust.

Existence of jews does not mean an absence of Nazis.


And furthermore....don't think you are going to get off the hook on this either...

I know you are one of the guys that hates this country too...er...it's policies.

What? Having the muslim world declare war on us for support of Israel(partly) isn't good enough?


Talked about fucked up...in America most of the Jews and Islamic Fundamentalists are Democrats...talk about a no win situation.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No need to check my facts...he was in the German military before they went Nazi. The guy was a scientist and that was really all he cared about...I am not going to claim he was a champion of Democracy or anything, but he didn't seem to shed too many tears over the fall of the Reich and was only too happy to continue his work for an entirely different ideology...

Not one was going to kill this guy...and better us than the Russians.

Is it that hard to see?
The guy was an SS officer, and he wasn't a NAZI? Now all of a sudden you're only NAZI if it doesn't interfere with the US plans?? give me a break

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Political Schizophrenia and deadbeatism.
Another ignorant post, from an ignorant, sad little man

[whottt]

The guy was an SS officer, and he wasn't a NAZI? Now all of a sudden you're only NAZI if it doesn't interfere with the US plans?? give me a break


The guy wanted to fucking build spaceships...he got in trouble with the Nazis for being too obessed with outerspace and not trying to win the war.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Maybe this one was a ummm....err...Nazi before the Nazis?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/Ford.jpg

[whottt]

Another ignorant post, from an ignorant, sad little man



Ahhh...nothing but insults when a little shit gets shoveled onto his flag...how suprising.

Luckily I knew better than to expect intelligent discourse with an Argentinian.

A country full of Sequ's...as I suspected.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The guy wanted to fucking build spaceships...he got in trouble with the Nazis for being too obessed with outerspace and not trying to win the war. LOL, says whom?? him?? A former NAZI claims he was forced to be a NAZI once the war is over. That's original!

Why don't you take a look at the documentary "Werner Von Braun: From NAZI to NASA". Then come talk to me Whottt

[whottt]

Probably Paris


In Paris?

Get fucking real...Jews are emigrating out of France at the greatest rate since WWII...perhaps because the feeling over there are just a little too familiar...what with France endorsing Hezbolla as a political movement.

Seeing as how America has more jews than fucking Israel...I'd bet that it's an American city.

And I'd be surprised if Buenos Aires is actually third on that list.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

A trully tasty Aryan beverage!
http://www.columnasur.org/CIEPAC/IMAGENES/coca022%20fanta.jpg

[whottt]

LOL, says whom?? him?? A former NAZI claims he has forced to be a NAZI once the war is over. That's original!

Why don't you take a look at the documentary "Werner Von Braun: From NAZI to NASA". Then come talk to me Whottt


The dude was in the fucking German military before the Nazis were even in power....what do you expect him to do...lead the revolt?

The guy was a scientist and all he gave a shit about was building his rockets...


Look...if you want to compare Nazis war criminals getting government protection VS getting busted....let's go ahead and do it...I imagine post WWII Argentina's success in sheltering war criminals 'll put your basketball team's gold medal to shame.


Did you guys actually click on that link I provided? Or did you just decide to continue being ignorant?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The dude was in the fucking German military before the Nazis were even in power....what do you expect him to do...lead the revolt?

The guy was a scientist and all he gave a shit about was building his rockets...


Look...if you want to compare Nazis war criminals getting government protection VS getting busted....let's go ahead and do it...I imagine post WWII Argentina's success in sheltering war criminals 'll put your basketball team's gold medal to shame.


Did you guys actually click on that link I provided? Or did you just decide to continue being ignorant? I clicked on the link, and I'm well aware of Argentina's dealings with post-war NAZI refugees. My point wasn't to compare both Whottt. Simply to make you realize what a dumbass assesment you made when you claim Argentina is NAZI heaven. Please stop arguing for the sake of arguing and make a valid point once ina while. Jesus, does everything have to turn into a pissing contest with you Whottt!

[whottt]

Actually whottt, you criticized people for watching too many movies when forming their opinion about America and you have done the same thing with Argentina.

Hey...if you guys can go around throwing a bunch of half assed propaganda out there as intellectual discussion...why can't I?


And I don't need no fucking Argentines to tell me what's wrong with my country...if I want to know what's wrong with my country I'll ask the terroris...er Democrats.

[j-6]

In Paris?

Get fucking real...Jews are emigrating out of France at the greatest rate since WWII...perhaps because the feeling over there are just a little too familiar...what with France endorsing Hezbolla as a political movement.

Seeing as how America has more jews than fucking Israel...I'd bet that it's an American city.

And I'd be surprised if Buenos Aires is actually third on that list.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_judaism.html

This page is dated 2002, and I didn't verify anything. And I wasn't surprised to see Miami second, but 535K out of 2.25M is a pretty large %age.

Cities with the Largest Jewish Population in the Diaspora (Diaspora refers to the dispersion of Jews outside of Israel.)

New York, USA 1,750,000
Miami, USA 535,000
Los Angeles, USA 490,000
Paris, France 350,000
Philadelphia, USA 254,000
Chicago, USA 248,000
San Francisco, USA 210,000
Boston, USA 208,000
London, UK 200,000
Moscow, Russia 200,000
Buenos Aires, Argentina 180,000
Toronto, Canada 175,000
Washington DC, USA 165,000
Kiev, Ukraine 110,000
Montreal, Canada 100,000
St. Petersburg, Russia 100,000

Top 10 Largest National Jewish Populations
1 USA-5,602,000
2 Israel-4,390,000
3 Russia -1,450,000
4 France-640,000
5 Canada-350,000
6 United Kingdom-320,000
7 Argentina-250,000
8 Brazil-150,000
9 Australia-92,000
10 South Africa-70,000

[whottt]

So as I suspected...smeagol was posting propaganda...

And here's something that museum might not tell you:


Jews leaving France in droves
Jews Leaving France in Droves
NewsMax.com Wires
Thursday, July 21, 2005
A wave of immigration (aliyah, in Hebrew) from France will bring 3,300 Jews to Israel by the end of this year, the highest since 1970, according to the Jewish Agency. Two planeloads of new immigrants are scheduled to arrive next Monday, the agency's Immigration and Absorption director Mike Rosenberg said.

Aliyah from France was up by 30 percent for the first six months of this year, he added, and 900 will have arrived by the end of this month.
Story Continues Below



Monday afternoon's arrivals at Ben Gurion Airport will mark the first time two planes of French immigrants have come in one day. Aryeh Azoulay, chairman of the Jewish Agency's immigration committee, and Mirale Gel, director general of the Absorption Ministry, will greet the new arrivals
The new immigrants are to include 100 children and 70 students who will be going directly into preparatory programs at Tel Aviv, Bar Ilan University and the Hebrew Universities. Seventy percent of the new families will be absorbed in the framework of "community absorption" in Bet Shemesh, Eilat, Netanya, Ashdod, Jerusalem, and Ashkelon.

Twenty percent of the new French immigrants are students who have passed their matriculation exams and will continue their academic studies in Israel.

More than half of the new immigrants are single, and 45% come as families. Most of the new immigrants arrive through direct absorption and prefer the center of the country.


A shit load of them are immigrating to Canda and the US as well...because of an increase in anti-semetic attacks abroad...



Rasie your hand if one of your problems with the US policy is that we didn't follow the advice of the French(read: the UN) in the middle east....

[boutons]

BOTH HANDS RAISED and WAVING THEM VIGOROUSLY.

de Gaulle told Kennedy to stay out of VN. Good advice. Quaqmire and defeat followed.

Chirac told shrub to stay out of Iraq. Good advice. Quagmire and defeat followed.

France was right on both counts, USA was wrong. Eat shit super-patriot red-staters.

shrub's bogus war is inciting Muslims everywhere, recruting jihadis to terrorism (making the USA, world less safe), esp the Muslims who immigrated to Western countries like UK and France, against Christians and Jews everywhere.

France has 600K Jews, and 6 million Muslims, not exactly an even match, and the French police can't possible prevent harassment of the Jews by the Muslims. Muslim culture in France is fucking up French life. Jewish parents have to deal with their kids' school buses being stoned, the kids beat up and harassed, have to tell their kids not to wear they yarmulkes in public. Some of them are going to Israel where the odds are much better that the police will protect their kids.

[whottt]

de Gaulle told Kennedy to stay out of VN. Good advice. Quaqmire and defeat followed.


Yawn. de Gaulle said a lot of things....


Chirac told shrub to stay out of Iraq. Good advice. Quagmire and defeat followed.

Um...last I checked Saddam was gone.

Oh wait...you expected us to be able to topple a regime and install a new government in 2 weeks and with no casualties...I guess that explains why you have already quit....you're an idiot.

And BTW...ChIraq is the most corrupt leader in Western Europe.





France was right on both counts, USA was wrong. Eat shit super-patriot red-staters.

France also shipped more jews off to concentration camps than any country other than Germany.




shrub's bogus war is inciting Muslims everywhere, recruting jihadis to terrorism (making the USA, world less safe), esp the Muslims who immigrated to Western countries like UK and France, against Christians and Jews everywhere.

Yeah...because they never attacked prior to that...You are truly an idiot.



France has 600K Jews, and 6 million Muslims, not exactly an even match, and the French police can't possible prevent harassment of the Jews by the Muslims.

Um...Yasser Arafat is a hero to the French...







Jewish parents have to deal with their kids' school buses being stoned, the kids beat up and harassed, have to tell their kids not to wear they yarmulkes in public. Some of them are going to Israel where the odds are much better that the police will protect their kids.


Yeah.. cuz...Jews have always been loved in France...this is only a recent development...You truly are an idiot.

[smeagol]

So as I suspected...smeagol was posting propaganda...
Propaganda? Now there's a stupid statement. I just posted what I remembered from the Jewish Meuseum. In any case, Buenos Aires is pretty high in the list for a city which is part of the Third World (actually its the only one there).

In any case, Bs As' place in that list does not change the fact you made an ignorant comment when you said Argentina is Nazi.

It's like me saying you are a nazi because you are of German descent. Stupid.

[Extra Stout]

Propaganda? Now there's a stupid statement. I just posted what I remembered from the Jewish Meuseum. In any case, Buenos Aires is pretty high in the list for a city which is part of the Third World (actually its the only one there).

In any case, Bs As' place in that list does not change the fact you made an ignorant comment when you said Argentina is Nazi.

It's like me saying you are a nazi because you are of German descent. Stupid.
Does Argentina really qualify as Third World? I think of it more as the most seriously fucked-up member of the First World. Buenos Aires is more "Paris at Half Price" than it is "Fancy Mexico City." If you lump them in with the developing countries, then you'd have to say that Spain or Ireland pre-EU were Third World as well.

[bigzak25]

Zak,
it would be nice if that were true, but it just isn't. Practically any opinion survey will show that the rest of the world doesn't like us very much. Recently, there was a lot of press (especially overseas) about the findings of a poll that indicated that people in 11 out of 16 countries viewed China in a more favorable light than America. But take heart, we are much loved in India!

here's a link to some recent polling data:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=247


so polling data makes it not true? hey, go ahead and put your faith into whatever you want, it's a free country. But I guarantee you if you do a fuckin poll of the Iraqi people, the Afghan people, and basically any one in the world WITHOUT an agenda, i.e. relatively neutral, your poll results would be dramatically different.

but the liberals of america can wallow in their insecurities by saying wahh wahh, the world hates us...if that's what they choose to do. Like i said, it's a free country...and always remember brother, FREEDOM ROCKS. The world knows this. This isn't the land of opportunity for nothin man.
:smokin

[SWC Bonfire]

Really? what policies might those be?

We could get into beef export trade policies if you like. But I'm not argumentative by nature.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

We could get into beef export trade policies if you like. But I'm not argumentative by nature.
Look disagree with every policy Argentina has, I don't mind, you have a right to disagree, but make sure you know what policies you're talking about, unlike the ignorant of Whottt.

[SWC Bonfire]

Well, basically it all boils down to the devaluation of the Argentinian peso and how that affects prices worldwide. A huge slug of cheaper beef was available to export markets at rock-bottom prices. Also, the reduced consumption of beef within Argentina has made more beef available for export at these reduced prices. Rather than a slow devaluation, this happened very drastically with a bad effect on the markets and feedlots with cattle on-hand purchased at higher prices.

Were it not for the relatively low numbers of the domestic cattle herd in the US and a huge increase in demand for domestic US beef and beef products, our prices would be in the crapper more than they are.

I understand that Argentinian ranchers aren't to blame for their government backing down on their commitment to the IMF and their own currency, and that the EU & its made-up policies are a much bigger threat to US beef exports, but I was merely providing an example of a policy that has caused some ire in the US, Texas especially.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Well, basically it all boils down to the devaluation of the Argentinian peso and how that affects prices worldwide. A huge slug of cheaper beef was available to export markets at rock-bottom prices. Also, the reduced consumption of beef within Argentina has made more beef available for export at these reduced prices. Rather than a slow devaluation, this happened very drastically with a bad effect on the markets and feedlots with cattle on-hand purchased at higher prices.

Were it not for the relatively low numbers of the domestic cattle herd in the US and a huge increase in demand for domestic US beef and beef products, our prices would be in the crapper more than they are.

I understand that Argentinian ranchers aren't to blame for their government backing down on their commitment to the IMF and their own currency, and that the EU & its made-up policies are a much bigger threat to US beef exports, but I was merely providing an example of a policy that has caused some ire in the US, Texas especially.
It wasn't so much a policy as a necesity. The economy needed a huge influx of cash, very quickly. The fact that we now export more beef at cheaper prices is the resultof several economic failures on behalf of our government throughout the course of a decade. However, I do believe those failures have affected us more than it has the US. We as a country greatly depend in the cattle industry, where as the US has several other major sources of income. Either way I understand that the Texan economy has been affected by this measure, there just wasn't much else we could do.

[SWC Bonfire]

We as a country greatly depend in the cattle industry...

I'm trying to finagle a trip to Argentina to see a ranch recently purchased by a family friend. Maybe in a year or two I can make it down there; I've been wanting to go for a long time and this is the latest excuse.

[smeagol]

Does Argentina really qualify as Third World? I think of it more as the most seriously fucked-up member of the First World. Buenos Aires is more "Paris at Half Price" than it is "Fancy Mexico City." If you lump them in with the developing countries, then you'd have to say that Spain or Ireland pre-EU were Third World as well.
Yes it does. Most of the country's economic indicators tell the same story. Underdeveloped country with lots of potential that cannot shake away its heritage. I agree with you that the British model is way better than the Spanish one. Simply look at the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, HK, etc.

The country is full of natural resources, the problem is us Argies. I can't put my finger exactly as to what our ptoblem is, but it is clear that when you have a neighbor with 1/4 of your population and 1/10 of your resources, and they are still able to move their country forward as they have (I'm obviously talking about Chile), then you realize that we Argies are the ones fucking up Argentina.

But don't tell this to whottt :lol

[whottt]

Look disagree with every policy Argentina has, I don't mind, you have a right to disagree, but make sure you know what policies you're talking about, unlike the ignorant of Whottt.

Are you trying to claim being a deadbeat hasn't been Argentinian policy for over a 100 years now?

You are wrong...from the time you guys sent the bank of Britain into bankruptcy in 1890...to this present day...you guys have been fucking deadbeats...

In terms of common sense, I can't say it's a bad policy...borrow money, don't pay it back..


I just can't figure out why ya'll are fucking poor after ripping off more money that any country in history.

But borrowing money and not paying it back is pretty smart....

Hell, why don't we all do that? Oh...we can't. Some of us have to be responsible leaders of the free world.

While others....sit on their asses in judgement without contributing much...except debt.



Political Shitzophrenia isn't a policy?

It most definitely is...one that can be laid directly at the feet of the Argentine people...not their government.

And if you don't see this then you are ignorant of the history of your own country.

[whottt]

By the way...the way I instinctively knew that smeagol fudged on the Buenos Aires jewish population statement...


Um...jews aren't borrowers...they are lenders. Argentina is definitely a country of borrowers. Jews fucking know what to do with their money...while Argentina...doesn't.

IF Argentina had a sizable population of jews they wouldn't be the historical deadbeats they have been.

[1369]

I'm trying to finagle a trip to Argentina to see a ranch recently purchased by a family friend. Maybe in a year or two I can make it down there; I've been wanting to go for a long time and this is the latest excuse.

Make sure you bring your shotgun.

The dove hunting down there is not to be believed.

My stats from last year:
TOTAL BOXES 129
TOTAL ROUNDS 3225
TOTAL BIRDS 1497
HUNT TIME (HOURS) 24
HUNT TIME (MINUTES) 1440
ROUNDS FIRED PER MINUTE 2.24
AVERAGE ROUNDS PER BIRD 2.154308617

And those folks don't fuck around when it comes to beef. I know I had to have put on an extra 20 lbs with the lunches and dinners they served.

An added bonus is Quilmes is a kick ass beer as well.

[Extra Stout]

You are wrong...from the time you guys sent the bank of Britain into bankruptcy in 1890...to this present day...you guys have been fucking deadbeats...

In terms of common sense, I can't say it's a bad policy...borrow money, don't pay it back..


I just can't figure out why ya'll are fucking poor after ripping off more money that any country in history. Because when you do that, people are more reluctant to do business with you for a while. And when you can't do business... you can't make money or create jobs.


Hell, why don't we all do that? Oh...we can't. Some of us have to be responsible leaders of the free world.

While others....sit on their asses in judgement without contributing much...except debt. Actually, you have stumbled upon something. People see that the U.S. has succeeded, and refuse to accept that the Americans created much of their own wealth. People think that economics is a zero-sum game, that if the U.S. is rich and they are poor, then the U.S. must have stolen something from them.

Someone earlier in the thread lamented the failure of Latin American governments to create wealth for their people. That right there is one of the key differences in the mentality. Americans are more likely to think that the best way for the government to create wealth is to stay out of the fucking way of the entrepreneur.

We're more dynamist than a lot of countries. The frame of mind in the Spanish-centered countries is morre statist.

[smeagol]

By the way...the way I instinctively knew that smeagol fudged on the Buenos Aires jewish population statement...


Um...jews aren't borrowers...they are lenders. Argentina is definitely a country of borrowers. Jews fucking know what to do with their money...while Argentina...doesn't.
Brilliant logic.

Jew population as a % of total population:

US: 1.93%
Canada: 1.12%
France: 0.96%
Argentina: 0.63%
UK: 0.50%
Australia: 0.50%
Switzerland: 0.24%
Sweden: 0.20%
Netherlands: 0.19%
Denmark: 0.16%
NZ: 0.13%
Italy: 0.06%

All those countries borrow money. Look at their populations as a % of total population.

What a stupid statement!

[Extra Stout]

By the way...the way I instinctively knew that smeagol fudged on the Buenos Aires jewish population statement...


Um...jews aren't borrowers...they are lenders. Argentina is definitely a country of borrowers. Jews fucking know what to do with their money...while Argentina...doesn't.

IF Argentina had a sizable population of jews they wouldn't be the historical deadbeats they have been.I hope you do realize that the U.S. has become a borrower nation under the brilliant fiscal leadership of the formerly-conservative Republicans.

Actually, we're the biggest borrower in the world.

That whole stones/glass houses thing.

[SWC Bonfire]

If the US were to default on its loans (secured by itself, not through the help of IMF), the entire world economy as we know it would be plunged into depression.

[Extra Stout]

If the US were to default on its loans (secured by itself, not through the help of IMF), the entire world economy as we know it would be plunged into depression.The United States government has taxing authority on the largest economy in the world. That's why it continues to get credit.

But, yes, you're right. If things got bad enough that the U.S. had to default, the result would be far worse than 1929.

Alarm bells won't start to go off until our national debt exceeds our GDP. Right now it's around 64%.

[smeagol]

I hope you do realize that the U.S. has become a borrower nation under the brilliant fiscal leadership of the formerly-conservative Republicans.

Actually, we're the biggest borrower in the world.
And all that money goes to finance the war in Iraq. What a waste of $$$$.

[SWC Bonfire]

And all that money goes to finance the war in Iraq. What a waste of $$$$.

So what's being borrowed is going to the war in Iraq? I thought all of our tax dollars were going to the war in Iraq! I guess it's expediate to assume that whether the argument is taxes or national debt, whatever you disagree with is the primary reason for either?

[smeagol]

So what's being borrowed is going to the war in Iraq? I thought all of our tax dollars were going to the war in Iraq! I guess it's expediate to assume that whether the argument is taxes or national debt, whatever you disagree with is the primary reason for either?
Money is fungible. If the US did not spend - I don't even know how much it has spent already - the billions it has spent in this war, it probably would not have to borrow.

[whottt]

And all that money goes to finance the war in Iraq. What a waste of $$$$.



Now this is a scary statement...because if there's anyone that's an expert on wasting money...it's an Argentine. You guys pretty much wrote the book on how to do it.

[Jelly]

BOTH HANDS RAISED and WAVING THEM VIGOROUSLY.

de Gaulle told Kennedy to stay out of VN. Good advice. Quaqmire and defeat followed.

.

oh please. Yeah, France told us to stay out of Vietnam, but mainly because they were bitter that they felt we didn't do enough to help them maintain power over that country. Yes, the wise French tried to get us to stay out...after spending a decade lobbying for MORE U.S involvement in their own Viet Nam debacle. They pleaded with the White House for more planes, more bombs, more men, more money and they were fairly succesful considering we ended up footing 80% of their military expenses. But they didn't like it when we only gave 10 B-26 bombers as opposed to the 25 they asked for. Oh, and we only sent 200 military personnel, when they wanted 400. And then they really got pissed off when we drew the line at some of the intense bombing they asked us to rain on the Viet-minh.

"In the French camp, food and ammunition shortages made it increasingly difficult for the 16,000 strong garrison to contain Viet-minh advances. Hoping to rectify the situation, Paris dispatched Army chief-of-staff Paul Ély to Washington to discuss an American intervention.The idea took the form of an operation code-named Vulture. Its objective was to relieve the pressures on the garrison at Dien Bien Phu with massive nighttime bombardments of Viet-minh positions and supply lines."

We ended up not doing it and they blamed us for their defeat.

[whottt]

I hope you do realize that the U.S. has become a borrower nation under the brilliant fiscal leadership of the formerly-conservative Republicans.

Actually, we're the biggest borrower in the world.

That whole stones/glass houses thing.

Really? What are we borrowing and who are we borrowing it from?


We are also the biggest lender in the World...and the biggest giver in the world.

It's not borrowing in and of itself that's bad...it's borrowing it and not paying it back...As long as you aren't subscribing to the Argentine Doctrine it's not a problem.

[SWC Bonfire]

Money is fungible. If the US did not spend - I don't even know how much it has spent already - the billions it has spent in this war, it probably would not have to borrow.

Yes, it would, unfortunately.

The problem is that the members of Congress and the White House are just like every other American... they want what they can't afford and don't want to have to wait to get it.

[smeagol]

Now this is a scary statement...because if there's anyone that's an expert on wasting money...it's an Argentine. You guys pretty much wrote the book on how to do it.
:lmao :lmao :lmao

The funny thing is I run my personal finances as if I were Swirtzerland.

My current income > current expenses and I save my entire yearly bonus. I don't carry balances in my credit cards, like half the Americans do. I don't have car loan or student loans. The only debt I have is a mortgage on an investment property were the asset has appreciated in value so much that its gotten to the point where I don't care about the liability anymore.

And precisely because I'm an Argentine who has seen how much harm excesive debt can do to a country I can say the things I say.

[smeagol]

Really? What are we borrowing and who are we borrowing it from?
The US is borrowing money to finance its budget deficit. It does so in the international capital markets through US Treasury issuances (maturities rangiong from 1 month to 30 years)


We are also the biggest lender in the World...and the biggest giver in the world.
Irrelevant.



It's not borrowing in and of itself that's bad...it's borrowing it and not paying it back...As long as you aren't subscribing to the Argentine Doctrine it's not a problem.
Well, if Argentina has a history of borrowing and not paying back, who are the idiots that still lend us money? Doesn't this recurring event teach those stupid creditors a lesson?

I wish nobody would lend money to Argentina for the next 20 years.

[nkdlunch]

3 words. George W. Bush

[bigzak25]

3 words. George W. Bush



r u a bush supporter? :hat

[nkdlunch]

r u a bush supporter? :hat

I don't qualify. I don't have 1 million $ or more

[smeagol]

Now this is a scary statement...because if there's anyone that's an expert on wasting money...it's an Argentine.

Wasting money?

Look at my vbookie savings :lol

[SWC Bonfire]

I don't qualify. I don't have 1 million $ or more

That's right. Everyone knows that the majority in all of the red states are millionaires.

[whottt]

Wasting money?

Look at my vbookie savings :lol


Yeah? And what are you doing with them? Absolutely nothing.

Thank you for proving my point.

[smeagol]

Yeah? And what are you doing with them? Absolutely nothing.

Thank you for proving my point.
Nothing?

I'm in a "wait and see mode". And besides, I know shit about baseball, so I keep out of those bets. Maybe I'll try my luck when football season starts.

In any case, quit harassing me :lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Now this is a scary statement...because if there's anyone that's an expert on wasting money...it's an Argentine. You guys pretty much wrote the book on how to do it.
Brilliant assesment Whottt! would you care to make more ignorant comments so the rest of us can see how incredibly idiotic you've become? What are my personal finances sherlock? how much money have I wasted? What the hell is your problem? you can't take a little criticism? Nobody here said "every american is this, or every American is that". Nobody insulted your country, it was a mere observation. I have lived in 8 different countries, and it is true that there is a certain animosity towards the US. Wether it is unfounded, or for whatever reason, its there. Now, you want to insult your way out of this discussion thats great, go ahead. But know that the only one insulting anyone here is you and noone else. The only one who is a blind hater here is you.

[cecil collins]

By the way...the way I instinctively knew that smeagol fudged on the Buenos Aires jewish population statement...


Um...jews aren't borrowers...they are lenders. Argentina is definitely a country of borrowers. Jews fucking know what to do with their money...while Argentina...doesn't.

IF Argentina had a sizable population of jews they wouldn't be the historical deadbeats they have been.


Nice and racist dude.

[whottt]

Yeah...I am so racist I was married to one. Commie.


And hey since you are an acknowledged commie and Communsim is an athiest belief system...that means you don't believe in Jews...doesn't that make you racist as well?

[cecil collins]

You are so cracked. That sort of logic could only come from Whott, congrats.

[Guru of Nothing]

I have lived in 8 different countries, and it is true that there is a certain animosity towards the US.

In what 8 countries have you resided?

[whottt]

You are so cracked. That sort of logic could only come from Whott, congrats.


Well...I was making notes of a prevalent belief in a religious movement that abhors destitution and openly preaches against it, and you called me racist....

Fucktard.

[cecil collins]

Angrier and angrier. Marrying a jewish person, does not mean that you are forever excused any racist comments you make about jewish people. I you yourself are Jewish, then it is more popularly acceptable for you to make racist comments about it. Please stop typifying everything. I like parts of socialism, so does that mean that I can be categorized and shelved like a fucking book? C'mon man, you even claim that you aren't conservative, but you hate the way democrats are running these days. You come off like the most twisted fucking right wing, america does no wrong headcase. BTW, anyone can criticize my America.

[whottt]

Still trying to figure out why you called me a racist...typical lefty throwing the racist tag around in ignorance.

[cecil collins]

I asked 2 questions, neither one had to do with you being a racist.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

In what 8 countries have you resided? Well, actually 9, but I'm not counting Lybia, because it was for a very short period of time. The countries I've lived in Italy, France, England, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Peru, Venezuela.

[Jelly]

Well, actually 9, but I'm not counting Lybia, because it was for a very short period of time. The countries I've lived in Italy, France, England, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Peru, Venezuela.

Hi Manumania,
just curious. Why do you move around so much?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hi Manumania,
just curious. Why do you move around so much?
Well it began when I was little, my father works in the oil business so he's been moving around since long before I was born. Then I took 2 years off after highschool to move around with my parents working for my dad. After that I came back to Buenos Aires, and I'm currently working on my law degree.

[Jelly]

Well it began when I was little, my father works in the oil business so he's been moving around since long before I was born. Then I took 2 years off after highschool to move around with my parents working for my dad. After that I came back to Buenos Aires, and I'm currently working on my law degree.

Cool.
It's very exciting to move around like that and be exposed to so many different people. We lived in a few different countries, but being in the military our exposure was mainly limited to other American families just like ourselves :sleep

[smeagol]

Well it began when I was little, my father works in the oil business so he's been moving around since long before I was born. Then I took 2 years off after highschool to move around with my parents working for my dad. After that I came back to Buenos Aires, and I'm currently working on my law degree.
International company or Argentine company?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

International company or Argentine company?
International

[whottt]

Imperialist!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Imperialist!
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