China a world threat? LOL

[whottt]

Like I have said before...China is doing good to stay communist and maintain control of their own population...they've already Westernized their economic structure...but there is no substitute for freedom...the government will go too...eventually...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1742116,00.html




China creates crack unit to crush poverty protests
From Jane Macartney in Beijing



CHINA has established elite police squads equipped with armoured vehicles and helicopters under orders to quell riots in a country where a protest erupts every seven minutes.
The squads are to be stationed in 36 cities, but the largest deployments are in Beijing and Shanghai as the Communist Party asserts its hold on power and gears up for the 2008 Olympic Games.



The latest team was inaugurated this week in the city of Zhengzhou, in central Henan province, China’s most heavily populated, with more than a hundred million people. More people sue the Government in Henan than in any other region.

People are becoming bolder in voicing their grievances in a society in which economic liberalisation has created a yawning gap between urban rich and rural poor, and under an authoritarian system that offers numerous opportunities for officials to get rich through corruption.

Officials said that the squads of 600 men had undergone training to battle terrorism, crush riots and respond to other emergencies. The men, the elite of the police force, have acquired skills such as survival techniques and fighting in hostile environments.

In recent years, popular protests have surged in China over disputes ranging from land rights to pensions, the environment and corruption. Several disturbances have turned violent when local governments have ordered in police or armed men. Zhou Yongkang, the Public Security Minister, said recently that the number of mass protests across China soared to more than 74,000 last year, with 3.76 million people taking part, up from 10,000 incidents a decade ago.

The authorities are particularly keen to avoid trouble during the Games, a showpiece that is seen as a coming-out party for an emerging superpower. In the 1990s sporadic bombings in the capital were blamed on members of the Muslim Uighur minority from the far western Xinjiang region that borders the Central Asian states of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Several particularly violent riots have broken out in Xinjiang among Uighurs demanding an independent state of East Turkestan.

The task of suppressing unrest in China has traditionally been assigned to the million-strong People’s Armed Police, a paramilitary force set up in 1983 to relieve the military of responsibility for internal security.

Acknowledging the problem of rising unrest, a vice-minister said last month that violent demonstrations were inevitable, given economic changes, and said that they were a sign of growing democracy.

Zhou Xiaozhen, a professor of sociology at People’s University in Beijing, questioned the use of force. He said: “I believe that when you save a plant, you should save the plant, not the leaves and the trunk. I question whether this way the Government can even cure the leaves.”

He urged greater attention to narrowing the gulf between rich and poor rather than deploying expensive armoured cars. He said: “The gap between rich and poor, urban and rural, is widening and this provides the earth for crimes to grow from. The illness should be cured from the roots.”

This week the Government ordered courts to stop hearing cases over land disputes and forcible demolition brought by disgruntled victims of eviction. Litigants will be referred to relevant government departments for arbitration and only if property owners are still unhappy will they be allowed to file a lawsuit. Demolitions do not have to stop during litigation if compensation or relocation has been offered to occupants.



Go ahead and blame the US for thier poverty problems like N Korea, Cuba and the Russians.

Communism sucks.

[whottt]

to quell riots in a country where a protest erupts every seven minutes.
The squads are to be stationed in 36 cities, but the largest deployments are in Beijing and Shanghai as the Communist Party asserts its hold on power and gears up for the 2008 Olympic Games.


Iran is having similar problems with their new hardline government by the way....massive unemployment and poverty are a real bitch on a government's popularity.

These are the two most Pro-American countries in the entire world...one day those scabs of governments are going to be scratched off....

Nukes didn't save the Soviets after all....

[JoeChalupa]

I agree with you there. It is only a matter of time before the people get tired of the "you are with us or against us" mentality of their government.

Power to the people!!

[whottt]

That's not what is causing it Joe...The Chinese have a fine sense of nationalism....it's communism they have a problem with.

[JoeChalupa]

I agree..and liberals too have a fine sense of nationalism...it's Bush we have a problem with. :angel

[whottt]

:tu

See...I knew you were more than just a collection of cheesy one liners.

Bush is the popularly elected leader though...the communists aren't.

[timvp]

Protests? How ........ American.

:smokin

[JoeChalupa]

:tu

See...I knew you were more than just a collection of cheesy one liners.

Bush is the popularly elected leader though...the communists aren't.

Most votes..yes. Popular?...not as he once was according to the polls.


But then again I've never been one to judge a President by the size of his poll....unlike Monica Lewinksy.






Damn it....there goes another cheesy one liner.

[JoeChalupa]

If the people of China were to rise up and a democracy was established....would that then make China the most powerful nation on earth?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

despite your cynicism, china continues to represent more and more of total global production, is owed more and more US money, is smoothing relationships with more and more countries that grow tired of "terror" this and "terror" that, and has the man power that the US could only dream of

im starting to believe the reason poeple continue to underestimate them is because of racism

if you can imagine a country with all the properties China currently has, but instead of orientals, was populated by Whites and Arians, etc, who had blonde, brown, and black hair, and could very well look like your neighbor, friend, or boss, then people would be freaked out by how much power they have

[whottt]

Way to jump into the argument and talk about absolutely nothing related to anything anyone else is discussing.

IOW, way to miss the point entirely.

[JoeChalupa]

So what do you think Whottt?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Way to jump into the argument and talk about absolutely nothing related to anything anyone else is discussing.

IOW, way to miss the point entirely.


whottt i did not miss the "lol" or the entirety of the title for this thread

if my reply missed the point of the body of your post then so did your title

[Vashner]

Yea I think Chinese troops are so Amerikanized they prob would defect.
The commies won't last long there.. .too many democratic forces at work and western influence.

On the other hand they are very well trained and equipped and some of the crack units would be a nightmare to fight...

[Jelly]

despite your cynicism, china continues to represent more and more of total global production, is owed more and more US money, is smoothing relationships with more and more countries that grow tired of "terror" this and "terror" that, and has the man power that the US could only dream of

im starting to believe the reason poeple continue to underestimate them is because of racism

if you can imagine a country with all the properties China currently has, but instead of orientals, was populated by Whites and Arians, etc, who had blonde, brown, and black hair, and could very well look like your neighbor, friend, or boss, then people would be freaked out by how much power they have

first of all, never use the term "oriental" to someone from that region (unless you're talking about a rug). The proper term is Asian. They find it offensive, ignorant and racist and you might just get your ass kicked for using the "O" word.
Also, racism has nothing to do with our low estimation of Chinese power. It has more to do with them being far behind everyone else in technology, GDP, living standards, education, a viable political structure, human rights, military strength (a zillion soldiers didn't keep Japan out), and just about every other conceivable measuring device.

Your racism claim is ludicrous. America respects any country that is progressive, can compete in the global economy, and has its shit together. South Korea and Japan are two excellent examples of Asian countries which are greatly admired and respected by the U.S.

[whottt]

whottt i did not miss the "lol" or the entirety of the title for this thread

if my reply missed the point of the body of your post then so did your title


My title was pretty generic...my comments make my point clear...you just didn't read them.

[JoeChalupa]

okay

[whottt]

So what do you think Whottt?


If they become a Democracy they'll be a major economic power, possibly number 1...they'll also cease to be a hostile threat.

I think it's always going to tough for them to acend to the absolute top because they lack the natural resources of the US...they also have such a large population that finding enough land to feed them is going to be a problem while still trying to become a leading industrialized nation(what they'll have to do to become the #1 economy).


Besides...they are still a poor country overall. Read this article, they have serious poverty issues.

And unlike every other communist county I can think of...they have a pretty low literacy rate and a very high unemployment rate...

They are halfway Democratic already...er capitalist.

My point is that Communist China is not a threat...if they try to expand they will have to devote more military power to maintaining control of their own population than they will invading.


On top of that...why is China so Rich?

What spurred them to become the #2 economic power in the world?

Us baby...US...we are their leading export partner...and we buy a hell of alot more stuff from them than they do from us....

Yeah they got money...they get it from us...and in doing so they are becoming addicted to it and becoming more like us...

Our economic pressure on them is greater than any military threat we could ever mount against them.

When China does become Democratic...

IMO...it will be Clinton's baby...

I think he could have done without selling off our top secret weaponry to them though.

[whottt]

And one other thing I'd like to say on this subject....

I do not want to see China collapse like Russia collapsed....I don't think it will happen though because China already has a Western economy.

Fuck that type of collapse...then we have a whole nother nuclear sell off problem.

The way it is happening is just fine...the Chinese people themselves are doing it politically and we are turning them into capitalists economically.

But communist China is not a threat.


And if you think these gas prices are going to fuck us up....

[Vashner]

China has better tanks... diesel.. troops can walk behind.. M1's are so hot the chinese are making heat seeking weapons that can take them out from miles away. They are pouring tons of money into the Red Army...

If we think 2-3000 deaths are bad... wait till you see this engagement.. 1-2 million or more.. maybe higher. In theory of course.

[whottt]

China has better tanks... diesel.. troops can walk behind.. M1's are so hot the chinese are making heat seeking weapons that can take them out from miles away. They are pouring tons of money into the Red Army...

If we think 2-3000 deaths are bad... wait till you see this engagement.. 1-2 million or more.. maybe higher. In theory of course.


Will never happen...do you know how much money we have invested in their country? And how badly they want to invest in ours?

IT will never happen and if it does China will lose.

They don't have the money to keep up with us in military spending...their population is not that happy with the government....they don't control access to the Oil supply...we do....

Do you see any Chinese military bases around here?

Because I guarantee you they see ours all over the place. Their nukes might hit us...ours will definitely hit them.


It just won't happen.

[Nbadan]

Will never happen...do you know how much money we have invested in their country? And how badly they want to invest in ours?

There's the problem. The U.S. is sucking up the entire world's credit, and using its credit card to pay the bill. In the past, credit would flow from rich countries to poor countries as investments, but lately credit has been flowing from poor countries, like China, to rich countries, the US. Everything is kosher as long as people keep taking Uncle Sam’s credit card, and the value of the dollar doesn't completely collapse compared to the Euro and other currencies.

Anyway, people in the US have used this easy credit to invest in homes, expensive cars, second-mortgages and what-not that they probably couldn't afford without the lower interest rates. The natural real estate cycle and easy Chinese money are the driving forces behind the US real estate boom, and despite the constant devaluation of the dollar on world markets, the Chinese keep buying more and more American securities.

However, things can't stay this way forever folks and I'll tell ya why. As Whott's article pointed out, the Chinese people are getting restless and they want to see quicker reform instead of just empty promises from their leaders, especially in worker's wages, rights and safer working conditions, and guess what? That costs lost of money. What money? You guessed it.

So yes, the communist in China are quelling decent, but nothing like it's been notoriously known for in the past. However, it's not like the U.S. is sanctioning China to reform its worker system. Not while China's credit card is driving W's economy. The Chinese have a system set up that the NeoCons and New World Order Crowd would love to have in the U.S… So don’t expect that to change anytime soon.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The Chinese have a system set up that the NeoCons and New World Order Crowd would love to have in the U.S… So don’t expect that to change anytime soon.


glad i'm not alone on that one

[MannyIsGod]

From a military standpoint, China is absolute shit. And no matter how big the pile of shit is, you can't deny that it is still just one big pile of shit.

They have what? One squadron of modern aircraft in the form of SU-27? Their navy is absoulte crap except for the destroyer they have capable of carrying the sunburn missle, but the sad fact is that destroyer would never pose a threat to a US SAG or CAG.

They don't even posses a military capable of retaking Taiwan due to their horrible navy. They can pound the shit out of the island with surface launched missles but they don't have a capability of launching an actual invasion of the island.

Their army is impressive simply due to the size, but on a field of battle against US forces, they would be worthless. You see boys and girls, the name of the game when it comes winning a military conflict is not numerical supperiority but intelligence. We have the ability to continuously track every unit of their army through the use of JSTARS, AWACS, Dark Star/Predator drones and not to mention satellites. You can't hit what you can't see and they don't even come close in the terms of C3.

Their nuclear weapons are a threat. Their ICBMS can reach parts of the United States but their submarine based missles are no threat to us. To say their missle sub(s) are noisy would be a sever understatement. I wouldn't be suprised if our navy is constantly aware of it's position while it is out of port.

What happens is that leaders in this country can't give out the plain facts. They need problems that need to be addressed so they have a tendency to blow a lot of hot air. Never does anyone mention the common sense notion that it would be adverse to any successfull longterm economic plan for China to in anyway attack the US. It is a no win situation.

In otherwords, no, they are not much of a threat to us.

[Nbadan]

Yes, yes, see Manny what you don't seem to get is that it takes the US money to run all those expensive weapons systems. Lots and lots of money. China isn't going to take on the U.S. directly because as you said, that would be futile. So, they patiently build up and modernize their Navy, which they are in the process of doing thanks to stolen U.S. Aegis Weapons plans, and they encourage U.S. consumers to hang themselves with low-interest debt that thanks to the new bankruptcy bill now follows you around forever like herpes. Yes, there is a possibility that many US consumers could be paying money to banks fronting for the enemy if China attacks Taiwan in the future.

Militarily, the Chinese have extreme patience. When the U.S. Military has been marginalized by our own debt stupid-ness and the Chinese have built up adequate forces, don't think for a second that they won't go after Taiwan.

[Dos]

Their army is impressive simply due to the size, but on a field of battle against US forces, they would be worthless. You see boys and girls, the name of the game when it comes winning a military conflict is not numerical supperiority but intelligence. We have the ability to continuously track every unit of their army through the use of JSTARS, AWACS, Dark Star/Predator drones and not to mention satellites. You can't hit what you can't see and they don't even come close in the terms of C3.


I totally agree but the nuclear subs are going to be online soon... that would be scary..

[MannyIsGod]

Are you talking about subs with a nuclear propulsion system or are you talking about sub carrying nuclear SLBM? Because they have both, and their both noisy as all hell.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, Go out and find the cost of a F-22 or the JSF and then compare it to the cost of a Predator or Darkstar and then get back to me.

[Nbadan]

BTW, Go out and find the cost of a F-22 or the JSF and then compare it to the cost of a Predator or Darkstar and then get back to me.

Apples and Oranges. It's not like we are currently using F-22's and JSF to patrol the border, and the Coast Guard patrols the coast.

[Dos]

type 94
A new design (type 094) has been planned since the late 1980s. Possibly incorporating some Russian technology, the Type 094 is expected to be a dramatic improvement over the sole Xia class SSBN, with improved quieting and sensor systems, and a more reliable propulsion system. Other improvements in sonar, propulsion, training, and the application of quieting techniques will contribute to a significant improvement in the capabilities of China’s submarine fleet.

The overall size of the Chinese submarine force will decline as older boats are scrapped and new ones are built at a slower pace. There is unconfirmable speculation that as many as a dozen of these new boats may be eventually constructed, though other estimates suggest that 4-6 or 6-8 boats may be constructed.

Plans to deploy this class of nuclear powered SSBNs are said to have been delayed due to problems with the nuclear reactor power plants. In December 1999 it was reported that China had begun construction on the first Type 094 missile submarine, with preparations for the construction detected by US intelligence in November 1999. Several years would be required for submarine construction, and probably an additional year or two for shake-down trials of the submarine, and testing of the JL-2 from the submarine. Both the JL-2 and the first Type 094 were expected to be deployed around 2005 or 2006.

As of December 2000 construction of the first Type 094 had apparently been delayed, and the PLAN had yet to test-launch the JL-2. Priority had been given to the Type 093 nuclear-powered attack submarine. Although the keel of the first Type 093 had been laid, completion was not expected until after 2005. The Type 094 is based on the same basic design, utilising the same power plant.

Each of the Type 094 SSBNs will mount 16 JL-2 ballistic missiles (DF-31s) with a range of 8000 kms. When deployed, this missile will allow Chinese SSBNs to target portions of the United States for the first time from operating areas located near the Chinese coast. Equipped with the JL-2 missiles, the Type 094 SSBNs would only have to patrol just to the northeast of the Kuril Islands to hold about three-fourths of the United States at risk.

On 02 December 2004 Bill Gertz reported that the new 094-class submarine had been launched in late July 2004. The new Type 094 was spotted by US intelligence at the Huludao shipyard, on the coast of Bohai Bay, some 250 miles northwest of Beijing. The submarine was in the early stages of being outfitted and was not yet equipped with new JL-2 submarine-launched nuclear missiles. The Pentagon report on Chinese military power released in May 2004 stated that the new Chinese missile submarine would not be operational until around 2010.

[MannyIsGod]

The Type 094 will be an upgrade over the Xia class without a doubt, but nothing that I've seen would make it on par with anything like a Russian Typhoon and we tracked those fairly well. This is mainly a political weapon.

[SWC Bonfire]

On top of that...why is China so Rich?

What spurred them to become the #2 economic power in the world?

Us baby...US...we are their leading export partner...and we buy a hell of alot more stuff from them than they do from us....

Yeah they got money...they get it from us...and in doing so they are becoming addicted to it and becoming more like us...

Our economic pressure on them is greater than any military threat we could ever mount against them.

When China does become Democratic...

IMO...it will be Clinton's baby...

I think he could have done without selling off our top secret weaponry to them though.

How would this not be George HW Bush's baby? Does your memory not go back far enough to remember most favored nation trading status? Or to Nixon normallizing relations with China? Clinton just took their money for looking the other way on millitary secrets.

[gtownspur]

Yes, yes, see Manny what you don't seem to get is that it takes the US money to run all those expensive weapons systems. Lots and lots of money. China isn't going to take on the U.S. directly because as you said, that would be futile. So, they patiently build up and modernize their Navy, which they are in the process of doing thanks to stolen U.S. Aegis Weapons plans, and they encourage U.S. consumers to hang themselves with low-interest debt that thanks to the new bankruptcy bill now follows you around forever like herpes. Yes, there is a possibility that many US consumers could be paying money to banks fronting for the enemy if China attacks Taiwan in the future.

Militarily, the Chinese have extreme patience. When the U.S. Military has been marginalized by our own debt stupid-ness and the Chinese have built up adequate forces, don't think for a second that they won't go after Taiwan.


I actually agree to this statement 89%. ITs true. China will only attack once victory is absolute.

[Nbadan]

When our kids kids are writing the history books and people ask, how did WW3 start? Historians will say because the US would NOT be excluded from the world's circle of oil:

Russia and China:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3310317

Iran and Iraq:

http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/3670/Iraq_Signs_Military_Pa...

And here's where it comes full circle:

Venezuela enlists Iran to steer oil to China
By Andy Webb-Vidal in Caracas
Published: January 31 2005 03:00 | Last updated: January 31 2005 03:00

Venezuela has enrolled Iran to help it accelerate a strategy to steer its oil exports to China and away from its traditional market of the US.

A team of traders from Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), the state-owned oil company, is to be trained in London by Iranian advisers in how to best place oil in Asian markets, according to industry sources.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/3221ed52-732d-11d9-86a0-00000e...


Guess the PNAC clan will get to pull out their BIG toys now, won't they?

God help us all.

[MannyIsGod]

You're right Dan. The world is going to stop selling the United States oil. Fuck!

[whottt]

I am surprised Dan hasn't read that Saudi is also considering joining the group moving towards Asia and imposing an Oil imbargo on the US...

It's still not that big of a deal...if all the OPEC countries boycotted us...it would still only amount to about 27% of our Oil Usage...

IOW...it won't fuck us nearly as bad as it's going to fuck Europe, even with their lesser dependence on Oil, and China doesn't use as much Oil as we do, and it is Europe's Oil we protect in the middle east more than ours...and Russia will come down on it's price...

I say bring it on...there will be no war because there is no way America could fight that many countries...and Europe...even if it wanted to...does not have the military capability to make a difference in such a war....

Yeah it'll kick us in the ass a bit...


But it will also get us off our dependence on Oil...

If these OPEC countries are smart they'll embargo us before the US can even think of building a case of military intervention against them...that would put the US in a position of going to war to end the embargo...and no one is going to support that idea....



Oh...and the reason the guys all want to align themselves with China...apart from their hatred of freedom of the individual, the common link between Islamofascism and Communism, is because China will be willing to sell them nuclear technology for Oil discounts and to protect it's interests. China's commnist government is in it's death throws though...so I doubt there is going to be a major swing in the free countries weilding the power.

Who the bad guys are here and who the good guys are...depends on if you value the freedom of the individual...that's what America stands for...and that's what our enemies despise.

[MannyIsGod]

We have one dumbass in the name of Dan, and another dumbass in the name of Whottt.

[whottt]

We have one dumbass in the name of Dan, and another dumbass in the name of Whottt.


And another dumbass named Manny who thinks we'll be willing to pay 15$ per gallon of gas...and who doesn't think there are countries out there(like the rest of the entire world) who want to crush America economically.

[MannyIsGod]

Do you and Dan share foil hats or do you both have your own?

[whottt]

And what about my view is whacked out?

I never said people would stop selling us gas...but the fact that OPEC might is a very real possiblity...

[MannyIsGod]

Not a damn thing about your view is wacked out. You're a visionary. Bravo!

[whottt]

Yeah because....there's never been an OPEC embargo against us before...

Sincerely, 1974

[MannyIsGod]

I said you were a visionary. Geez, are you that insecure?

[whottt]

An Nbadan comparison will make anyone insecure...if you are going to criticize my view it might be nice to let me in on the aspect of it that you are criticizing, so that I can use the right words when I criticize your intelligence.

[MannyIsGod]

An Nbadan comparison will make anyone insecure...if you are going to criticize my view it might be nice to let me in on the aspect of it that you are criticizing, so that I can use the right words when I criticize your intelligence.
:lmao

Thats the truth.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidrunk.gifhttp://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidrunk.gifhttp://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidrunk.gifhttp://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidrunk.gif

I'll post about it later after happy hour.

[Nbadan]

An Nbadan comparison will make anyone insecure...if you are going to criticize my view it might be nice to let me in on the aspect of it that you are criticizing, so that I can use the right words when I criticize your intelligence.

:rolleyes

Oh please, this is Manny's good ole’ boy, standby, knee-jerk reaction to every situation. Criticize those who are willing to offer an opinion and never stick your neck out, or worse yet, when you turn out to be wrong yet again, blame your x-roommate for posting under your avatar.

[MannyIsGod]

Dan, you're so full of shit. Seriously. Is there one poster here who takes you seriously? No, there isn't. And now, I'm blaming people for posting under my name? When the hell did I do that?

You're a complete tool.

[Nbadan]

I'll post about it later after happy hour.

Must be an all-nighter! :lol

(Told ya he won't stick his neck out)

[boutons]

"countries out there (like the rest of the entire world) who want to crush America economically."

Apart from it being a typical whott paranoid fantasy to justify invading country X, what the problem with that? In your of America's-perfectly-OK-but-the-world-sucks ideology, ONLY America as the right to crush economically all other countries, and America is immune from being an object of crushing back?

[MannyIsGod]

I am surprised Dan hasn't read that Saudi is also considering joining the group moving towards Asia and imposing an Oil imbargo on the US...

It's still not that big of a deal...if all the OPEC countries boycotted us...it would still only amount to about 27% of our Oil Usage...

IOW...it won't fuck us nearly as bad as it's going to fuck Europe, even with their lesser dependence on Oil, and China doesn't use as much Oil as we do, and it is Europe's Oil we protect in the middle east more than ours...and Russia will come down on it's price...

I say bring it on...there will be no war because there is no way America could fight that many countries...and Europe...even if it wanted to...does not have the military capability to make a difference in such a war....

Yeah it'll kick us in the ass a bit...


But it will also get us off our dependence on Oil...

If these OPEC countries are smart they'll embargo us before the US can even think of building a case of military intervention against them...that would put the US in a position of going to war to end the embargo...and no one is going to support that idea....



Oh...and the reason the guys all want to align themselves with China...apart from their hatred of freedom of the individual, the common link between Islamofascism and Communism, is because China will be willing to sell them nuclear technology for Oil discounts and to protect it's interests. China's commnist government is in it's death throws though...so I doubt there is going to be a major swing in the free countries weilding the power.

Who the bad guys are here and who the good guys are...depends on if you value the freedom of the individual...that's what America stands for...and that's what our enemies despise.

This is such shit. This is the part of your argument that paints you as a tin hat wearing fool.

There is one reason they are trying to align themselves with China and that is because of the emerging market that is going to surpass the United States as the largest in the world.

You try to put everything into an Anti-Freedom Anti-American light. You're fucking paranoid. The US isn't as benevolant as you always want to make it. Jesus.