Russian backed seperatists murder 23 Americans and 200+ others

[RandomGuy]

Fucking oops.

Russia gave them sophisticated surface to air missles (or quite possibly personnel to run them as well, look up "little green men".

Obama and Putin were on the phone with Putin bitching about the new sanctions. Awkward.

23 americans reportedly killed.

Surprising no one posted in the politics forum about it.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118741/ukraine-rebels-allegedly-downed-malaysian-airlines-buk-launcher

Time to ratchet up the sanctions. Fuck Russia.

[m>s]

no fuck you leftist scum

hiel russia, from texas

[Big Empty]

WW3

[m>s]

RACE WAR NOW!!!!!

[pgardn]

RACE WAR NOW!!!!!

Only if you display your massive balls.

[pgardn]

WW3

Hardly...

[RandomGuy]

no fuck you leftist scum

hiel russia, from texas

So, you are ok with Americans being murdered? Good to know.

[m>s]

So, you are ok with Americans being murdered? Good to know.
i'm thinking americans funded the guys who actually did this so that america could have an excuse to get involved and further demonize russia for not being part of the NWO banking cartel

that's what i think before you put words in my mouth you fucking shithead

[pgardn]

i'm thinking americans funded the guys who actually did this so that america could have an excuse to get involved and further demonize russia for not being part of the NWO banking cartel

that's what i think before you put words in my mouth you fucking shithead

Because you can't think.

[m>s]

you're a shabbos goy

[xeromass]

WTF is there higher level of discourse in the club?

Anyhow, at post-incident press conference Putin appeared seriously nervous, never seen him like that. Medvedev was even bigger mess.

http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1807923

Play the embedded video. That's the best I could find online, what was shown on Russia Today was even more striking.

Few hours before he had another presser and appeared much more upbeat.

[pgardn]

you're a shabbos goy

You are a Nazi fuck.

Wear your uniform in public, coward.

[Big Empty]

I didnt realize this happened in 83. What did Reagan do besides give that speech thats all over facebook.

[m>s]

You are a Nazi fuck.

Wear your uniform in public, coward.
you really think i go out of my way to hide my views? most people tend to agree or at least sympathize, it's at least 60/40 you'd be surprised.

[pgardn]

you really think i go out of my way to hide my views? most people tend to agree or at least sympathize, it's at least 60/40 you'd be surprised.

Then wear your swastika on an armband chicken shit.
In public.

[Infinite_limit]

I wish I could credit Putin for this but unfortunately No.

[Winehole23]

hiel russia, from texasspeaks for itself

[Winehole23]

oh, and supposedly for a bunch of true native sons, whatever the fuck that means.

[TDMVPDPOY]

230 ppl dead not worthy to start ww3

how many ppl dead in ukrain incident from day 1?

how many dead in 10days in gaza? nobody gives a shit

how many female children kidnap in nigeria? nobody gives a shit

alot of the members of that flight dead are anti-aids campaigners, now there could be a conspiracy by the health industry to shoot them down to keep the aids campaign money revenue from stopping if there was a cure

[Winehole23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPo9OBrIOi4

[boutons_deux]

Limbaugh Miffed Media Distracted From Border Crisis By Malaysian Planehttp://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/limbaugh-malaysian-plane-distraction?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29

some Repug/tea bagger (Louie Gohmert in the running) will say, sooner or later, that Obama shot down that plane

In fact, the USA/EU provoking the Putin puppet to be overthrown caused the ethnic Russians to revolt, with Putin's support, aka, dead Americans is blowback from imperial USA dicking around in other countries, much like USA dicking around for decades in Central America caused the immigrant crisis.

No surprise that the world polls as saying the USA is greatest threat to world peace.

[pgardn]

Limbaugh Miffed Media Distracted From Border Crisis By Malaysian Plane

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/limbaugh-malaysian-plane-distraction?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29

some Repug/tea bagger (Louie Gohmert in the running) will say, sooner or later, that Obama shot down that plane

In fact, the USA/EU provoking the Putin puppet to be overthrown caused the ethnic Russians to revolt, with Putin's support, aka, dead Americans is blowback from imperial USA dicking around in other countries, much like USA dicking around for decades in Central America caused the immigrant crisis.

No surprise that the world polls as saying the USA is greatest threat to world peace.



Do you want crap with that shit the waitress said...

[boutons_deux]

MH17: recording shows Russian colonel and rebels 'discussing disaster' – video


http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/18/mh17-recording-russian-colonel-rebels-discuss-disaster-video

[RandomGuy]

i'm thinking americans funded the guys who actually did this so that america could have an excuse to get involved and further demonize russia for not being part of the NWO banking cartel

that's what i think before you put words in my mouth you fucking shithead

Soooo Americans are funding Russian separatists in Ukraine?


Link?

[m>s]

no funding the new coup government...funded the whole damn "revolution"

[Agloco]

i'm thinking americans funded the guys who actually did this so that america could have an excuse to get involved and further demonize russia for not being part of the NWO banking cartel

that's what i think before you put words in my mouth you fucking shithead

Lulz?

[Infinite_limit]

no funding the new coup government...funded the whole damn "revolution"
*ding ding*

[pgardn]

*ding ding*

Stone on stone goes clunk, clunk...

[Infinite_limit]

Stone on stone goes clunk, clunk...
Russia, China, India & Brazil > USA, UK & Israel

[Th'Pusher]

Russia, China, India & Brazil > USA, UK & Israel

By what metric? Economic Growth?

[pgardn]

By what metric? Economic Growth?

Population.

[Th'Pusher]

BRIC's rule? Seriously? This is where we're at?

[Winehole23]

But having a passenger plane, filled with EU citizens, shot out of the sky above what is presumed to be the bubble of first world safety that is "Europe" is a game changing event not only in the Ukraine crisis but much more broadly about Putin's role in Europe generally.

In a paradoxical way, I think the future ramifications of this are almost greater because it is about Russia's recklessness and bumbling than it would be if it were more clearly a matter of intent. This is a f'-up on Putin's part of almost mind-boggling proportions. Yes, a tragedy. Yes, perhaps an atrocity. But almost more threatening, a screw up. Malign intent is one thing. So is aggression. But goofs of this magnitude by someone who controls a massive military arsenal and nuclear weapons are in a way more threatening.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/game-changer--5

[Winehole23]

BRIC's rule? Seriously? This is where we're at?paranoia ritually inflates the threat. it's sort of a liberal third-world chic in reverse...BRICS as bogey man

[Infinite_limit]

Is this true?



http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/kegstermd/russia_zpse8a7317d.png

[Winehole23]

(dramatic look gopher)

[Infinite_limit]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/game-changer--5
From article

"Find extremists and hot-heads of the lowest common denominator variety, seed them with weaponry only a few militaries in the world possess - and, well, just see what happens. What could go wrong?"

He's talking about the neo-nazis USA funded right?

[Winehole23]

he's talking about the separatists Putin gave SAMs to

[Winehole23]

please catch up

[Infinite_limit]

he's talking about the separatists Putin gave SAMs to
Who flies over a Warzone. How fkn stupid.

[Infinite_limit]

TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES

1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations (http://rt.com/news/173964-ukraine-malaysia-intercepted-calls/) based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers (http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/) in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed (http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/) there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission (http://rt.com/news/173972-churkin-malaysia-plane-un/)? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route (http://rt.com/news/173792-malaysian-plane-diverted-warzone/) to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights (http://rt.com/news/173652-fights-avoid-ukrain-malaysian/), especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident (http://rt.com/news/173680-passenger-planes-shot-down/) in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.

[pgardn]

Who flies over a Warzone. How fkn stupid.

Apparently quite a few airlines. This was not the only plane that has routinely flown that route.

This war was supposedly limited in scope. 6 miles up, who has missiles capable of going 6 miles into the air that require some sophisticated operators? That would shoot at civilian aircraft... Well, apparently Russia.

Putin started something he can't control.
He has learned a lesson.
And in the end it will be a hard lesson on his little group up top.

[pgardn]

TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES

1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations (http://rt.com/news/173964-ukraine-malaysia-intercepted-calls/) based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers (http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/) in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed (http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/) there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission (http://rt.com/news/173972-churkin-malaysia-plane-un/)? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route (http://rt.com/news/173792-malaysian-plane-diverted-warzone/) to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights (http://rt.com/news/173652-fights-avoid-ukrain-malaysian/), especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident (http://rt.com/news/173680-passenger-planes-shot-down/) in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.

Ukraine did not shoot the aircraft.
Keep deflecting the issue.

And you should like them, they have a decent size Nazi element.

[Wild Cobra]

Is this true?



http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/kegstermd/russia_zpse8a7317d.png
I seriously doubt it. I vaguely remember that timeframe, and that's a conspiracy theory.

[boutons_deux]

I seriously doubt it. I vaguely remember that timeframe, and that's a conspiracy theory.

CIA forcing 007 not to divert? anybody have any evidence?

007 refusing to divert? It didn't divert, navigation error?

"in 1983 that the Reagan Administration in the US had the incentive to open up GPS for civilian applications so that aircraft, shipping, and transport the world over could fix their positions and avoid straying into restricted foreign territory."

http://www.mio.com/technology-history-of-gps.htm

and did 007 hear a diversion demand from Russians?

As with so many of this events, the truth is difficult to know, until maybe decades later, but incredible govt secrecy keeps the docs TOP SECRET for decades, if not longer. One of dickhead Cheney's nasty acts upon stealing into the WH was to re-classify Ms of docs that had been in the public domain for years.

[boutons_deux]

Ukraine Accuses Insurgents of Blocking Access to Crash Site

The Ukrainian government accused Russian-backed insurgents on Saturday of blocking recovery workers from the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which was shot down by a missile on Thursday, and of trying to destroy evidence surrounding the attack.

“The Russian-led terrorists are preventing access of the international community and foreign governments to the location where the Malaysia Airlines airplane crashed on July 17 and are obstructing the launch of an investigation,” the government’s statement said.

The government said that it had information that 38 bodies were taken to the morgue in Donetsk, a regional capital that is a rebel stronghold.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=BannerSubHedSumLargeMedia&module=a-lede-package-region&region=lede-package&WT.nav=lede-package

[Winehole23]

It is too early to judge the U.S. response in full, of course – Obama is apparently planning a national address (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-world-leaders-convene-crash-putin-calls-violence-article-1.1871780)– but it is worth recalling that Reagan’s own response in 1983 did not get good reviews from the Fox News of the day. According to Richard Reeves’s “President Reagan,” (http://www.amazon.com/President-Reagan-The-Triumph-Imagination/dp/1416531912/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1405694012&sr=8-1) (see p167-70), the administration was seen as far too weak.


True, the president’s nationally televised address (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=41788&st=korean&st1=) on Sept. 5 was full of strong rhetorical condemnation: Reagan called the Soviet action “monstrous,” “murderous,” and “born of a society which wantonly disregards individual rights and the value of human life.”


But little action followed. Reagan demanded an apology to the world and continued a number of sanctions — but he decided not to end grain sales to the USSR or to suspend arms control talks. George Will argued that “the administration is pathetic…. We didn’t elect a dictionary. We elected a President and it’s time for him to act.” The Manchester Union-Leader editorialized that “if someone had told us three years ago that the Russians could blow a civilian airliner out of the skies – and not face one whit of retaliation from a Ronald Reagan administration, we would have called that crazy. It is crazy. It is insane. It is exactly what happened.”


Even at the height of the Cold War, however — and keeping in mind that the flight had departed from the U.S., with dozens of American passengers, including a sitting member of Congress (http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=M000413) – Reagan told a National Security Meeting that “we’ve got to protect against overreaction. Vengeance isn’t the name of the game.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/07/18/reagan-and-kal-007/

[Winehole23]

Who flies over a Warzone. How fkn stupid.Blaming the target. Inane.

[boutons_deux]

Ukraine Says It Can Prove Russia Supplied Arms System That Felled Jet

The Ukrainian government said on Saturday, that it had proof that Russia had provided the surface-to-air missile system that shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard.

Ukraine accused Russia and separatist rebels in the east of trying to cover-up their role by blocking recovery workers from the crash site, removing evidence and driving the missile launchers back to Russia just hours after the crash.

At a news conference in Kiev, Vitaly Nayda, the head of counterintelligence for the Ukrainian State Security Service, displayed photographs that he said showed three of the Buk-M1 missile systems on the road to the Russian border.

Two of the devices, which are missile launchers mounted on an armored vehicle, crossed the border into Russia at about 2 a.m. Friday, or less than 10 hours after the jet, Flight 17, was blown apart in midair, he said.

The third weapon crossed at about 4 a.m.

Mr. Nayda said that the missile had been fired from the town of Snizhne, located in rebel-controlled territory, echoing American intelligence showing the missile coming from eastern Ukraine.

Both the Ukrainians and the Americans said they believed that the separatist rebels would have needed help from Russia in order to fire the antiaircraft missiles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=BannerSubHedSumLargeMedia&module=a-lede-package-region&region=lede-package&WT.nav=lede-package

[Infinite_limit]

341 murdered in Palestine. Who cares about planes in Ukraine

[pgardn]

341 murdered in Palestine. Who cares about planes in Ukraine

150,000 dead in Syria and Iraq...

continue Nazi.

[boutons_deux]

Maddow has several segments on the crash, a lots of context, history, covering it deeper than I bet any other news source.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show

[Infinite_limit]

150,000 dead in Syria and Iraq...

continue Nazi.
All places with direct American involvement

[pgardn]

All places with direct American involvement

All places with a history of violence way before the US.
Look up the city of Hama and what the elder Assad did there.
20,000 dead, in 4 days. He leveled the entire city.

And quit acting like you care, they are all subhuman to you, Nazi.

[m>s]

By what metric? Economic Growth?
by not committing genocide against their own people in the name of cuckoldry and cultural marxism

fuck off WEAK ASS BITCH

[pgardn]

Putin has stepped in the shit. Bound to happen.

So it will be interesting who he axes in the Kremlin. The fall guy. Or what group convinced him of this stupidity.
Still refusing to let investigators on site for any meaningful look. Europe will be forced to do something. The Dutch are POed. Russia steps deeper into a cesspool of economic fecal matter.

The idiots are trying to use the crash victims credit cards...
Unleash the professionals. We will protect the site... SMH

[boutons_deux]

ethnic Russians and very probably Russian military denying access to Ukraine and other investigators.

probably removing, destroying all evidence that would convict Russian hardware, or evidence of a rocket hit.

Mucky muck in the insurgents said all the bodies were already dead, dried, so the crash was Ukraine shooting down a dummy plane to put the blame on insurgents, Russia.

[boutons_deux]

Since the Cold War, the U.S. Department of Defense has had a multibillion-dollar space-based system to provide early warning forintercontinental ballistic missiles (http://www.space.com/19601-how-intercontinental-ballistic-missiles-work-infographic.html).

"It is a very, very precise system that has constant coverage, especially over Russia and Ukraine," said Riki Ellison, founder of the Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance.

Starting in the 1970s, the Pentagon has launched a series of high-altitude satellites with Earth-facing infrared telescopes as part of its Defense Support Program, or DSP. That constellation has kept a continuous watch on the planet for the hot plumes of exhaust from missiles to warn the military and intelligence communities about possible strikes and battlefield threats.

In the past few years, DSP has undergone a major upgrade, becoming the Space Based Infrared System (http://www.space.com/24897-air-force-space-surveillance-program.html) (SBIRS), with the launch of betterhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.livescience.com/46878-military-satellites-malaysia-airlines-missile-mh17.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Livesciencecom+%28LiveScience .com+Science+Headline+Feed%29#)satellites that can detect faint missiles fasterhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.livescience.com/46878-military-satellites-malaysia-airlines-missile-mh17.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Livesciencecom+%28LiveScience .com+Science+Headline+Feed%29#).

SBIRS now includes two geosynchronous Earth orbit (GEO) satellites, built by Lockheed Martin, that are each hover above an unchanging spot on planet, more than 22,000 miles (35,400 kilometers) high. (For comparison, the International Space Station orbits at an average altitude of about 248 miles, or 400 km). The first of those satellites, dubbed GEO-1 (http://www.space.com/11606-rocket-launches-missile-defense-satellite-geo-1-sbirs.html), launched from Cape Canaveral in May 2011. Lockheed Martin recently announced that it won a $1.86 billion Air Force contract to complete the fifth and sixth GEO satellites as part of SBIRS.

It's likely that the strike on MH17 showed up as an alarming blip on screens at Buckley Air Force Base in Colorado where those datahttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.livescience.com/46878-military-satellites-malaysia-airlines-missile-mh17.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Livesciencecom+%28LiveScience .com+Science+Headline+Feed%29#) from the SBIRS is processed. The detection is precise enough to detect where a missile was fired from and what kind of missile it was.
"Each missile has a different signature plume," Ellison said.

Ellison told Space.com that other military satellites in the region probably would have been alerted to gather further information to be provided to the U.S. European Command.

http://www.livescience.com/46878-military-satellites-malaysia-airlines-missile-mh17.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Livesciencecom+%28LiveScience .com+Science+Headline+Feed%29

[mercos]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/game-changer--5

That is an interesting thought. However, Putin could also be testing the waters to see just how much he could get away with. Thus far, he really hasn't been punished for stealing Crimea. Everyone knows he wants eastern Ukraine next.

[boutons_deux]

Ron Paul defends Putin over downed Malaysian plane: He’s ‘smarter than that’http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/20/ron-paul-defends-putin-over-downed-malaysian-plane-hes-smarter-than-that/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[boutons_deux]

US says recordings of Ukraine rebels admitting MH17 downing ‘authentic’

Alleged intercepted phone conversations released by Ukraine’s security service of pro-Russian rebels discussing how they shot down Malaysian airliner MH17 are genuine, the US embassy in Kiev said Sunday.

Ukraine’s SBU security agency on Thursday released recordings of what it claimed were phone talks involving rebels and a Russian military intelligence officer admitting that they had hit the passenger jet after mistaking it for a military aircraft.

The recordings were presented as key evidence to back up Kiev’s claims that rebels — supported by Russia — downed the jet while the separatists accused Ukraine’s army of being responsible.

“Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders,” the US embassy in Ukraine said in a statement.

In one of the recordings a rebel commander nicknamed the “Major” says rebels shot down the plane and tells a disbelieving comrade that the jet is “100 percent a civilian aircraft.”

On Sunday Ukraine’s security agency released a fresh batch of alleged leaked conversations of rebels organising to hide the flight’s black boxes from international monitors at the crash site.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/20/us-says-recordings-of-ukraine-rebels-admitting-mh17-downing-authentic/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[SnakeBoy]

Is this true?



http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac255/kegstermd/russia_zpse8a7317d.png

Yes, it's all true. For future reference, you can always tell that something is true when there is no reliable evidence to support it and lot's of evidence to disprove it. That's the CIA at work using facts and evidence to trick the sheeple.

[Winehole23]

Short version: Airlines rely on regulators and national and international bodies to tell them about airspace they should avoid. Absent such warnings, airspace is presumptively legal and safe for transit. MH17 was following the rules by staying out of no-fly and warning zones. A terrible crime and disaster occurred, but that is not Malaysia Air's fault.


Shorter still: According to Spiegel (German version here (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/malaysia-airlines-mh17-lufthansa-ueberflog-ost-ukraine-56-mal-a-981813.html)), while some airlines, including Air France, had changed their routes to avoid Ukraine, most did not. Many other airlines took a path similar to the one on which MH17 was shot down, notably including Lufthansa. Here is Spiegel's chart (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/malaysia-airlines-mh17-lufthansa-ueberflog-ost-ukraine-56-mal-a-981813.html) of how many planes had gone this way in the week before yesterday's disaster;

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/07/LHMH/6219ca7e2.jpg Airlines that have recently flown most often across Ukraine. Four others come before Malaysia Air. Lufthansa, as flag carrier for that paragon of efficiency, Germany, had taken the route more often than did Malaysia Air. So too (according to Spiegel, with data from FlightRadar.com) with Singapore Airlines, famously high-end and responsible airline. Any of them could have met the fate that tragically befell the 298 people on MH17. Indeed, also according to Spiegel, some other first-world airliners were not far from MH17 when it was shot down. Somehow I suspect that if it had been a Lufthansa plane that was attacked, there would be fewer starting-point assumptions that the carrier had somehow been cutting corners at the cost of its passengers' safety. (Thanks to Chua Chin Hon of the Straits Times for noticing this graphic.)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/dont-blame-malaysia-airlines/374713/

[Chris]

CR5HtzbMy-E

[RandomGuy]

Stone on stone goes clunk, clunk...

Thing more along the lines of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

[RandomGuy]

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/dont-blame-malaysia-airlines/374713/

Good article. Thanks.

[boutons_deux]

Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 also went down during the afternoon, not at night, meaning the missile battery was not concealed by darkness.

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

[Wild Cobra]

More information:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html?_r=0

[Infinite_limit]

So it was the Ukranians all along. "Told you so" - Russia

[RandomGuy]

More information:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html?_r=0

Cool. Thanks. I learned something new.

[Capt Bringdown]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/USevidenceMH17.jpg

[Infinite_limit]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/USevidenceMH17.jpg
I actually had a manager at Work state "They are trying to figure out if it was the Bad Guys"

[Winehole23]

topically related:


Fury and frustration still mount over the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and justly so. But before accusing Russian President Vladimir Putin of war crimes or dismissing the entire episode as a tragic fluke, it’s worth looking back at another doomed passenger plane—Iran Air Flight 655—shot down on July 3, 1988, not by some scruffy rebel on contested soil but by a U.S. Navy captain in command of an Aegis-class cruiser called the Vincennes.



A quarter-century later, the Vincennes is almost completely forgotten, but it still ranks as the world’s seventh deadliest air disaster (Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is the sixth) and one of the Pentagon’s most inexcusable disgracees.



In several ways, the two calamities are similar. The Malaysian Boeing 777 wandered into a messy civil war in eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border; the Iranian Airbus A300 wandered into a naval skirmish—one of many clashes in the ongoing “Tanker War” (https://strausscenter.org/hormuz/tanker-war.html) (another forgotten conflict)—in the Strait of Hormuz. The likely pro-Russia rebel thought that he was shooting at a Ukrainian military-transport plane; the U.S. Navy captain, Will Rogers III, mistook the Airbus for an F-14 fighter jet.http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/07/the_vincennes_downing_of_iran_air_flight_655_the_u nited_states_tried_to.html

[boutons_deux]

"mistook the Airbus for an F-14 fighter jet." :lol

[Winehole23]

Russian shelling, local fighting, hinder investigation of the crash site: http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/fighting-keeps-international-investigators-from-mh17-crash-site/375117/

[Winehole23]

USG releases pictures: http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/us-releases-pictures-it-says-show-russia-shelled-ukraine-fro

[Infinite_limit]

USG releases pictures: http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/us-releases-pictures-it-says-show-russia-shelled-ukraine-fro
What is USA's business over there, again?

[Winehole23]

you tell me, profe. sounds like you know something about it.

[Infinite_limit]

you tell me, profe. sounds like you know something about it.
Dunno. Waiting for Russia to start speaking out on issues involving Mexico

[pgardn]

Dunno. Waiting for Russia to start speaking out on issues involving Mexico

Oh yes. We are shelling the Mexican Army and shooting down wandering Canadian passenger jets.
So what has Russia decided to do? Did we take Cancun yet?

[Winehole23]

Dunno. Waiting for Russia to start speaking out on issues involving MexicoDunno what you're talking about. Sounds about right.

[Infinite_limit]

Dunno what you're talking about. Sounds about right.
How did Americans stumble into Eastern Euro?

[Winehole23]

you should answer your own question; I have no idea what you're referring to. could be anything from WWII to the present day.

[RandomGuy]

Dunno. Waiting for Russia to start speaking out on issues involving Mexico

Russia doesn't do a trillion dollars of trade with Mexico.

US-EU trade on the other hand is *slightly* more important.

In case you hadn't noticed, Ukraine is in Europe.

Just sayin'.

Yes, this is our business, especially when you have the Russians giving redneck idiots advanced SAMs.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, this is our business, especially when you have the Russians giving redneck idiots advanced SAMs.

You know, the SA-11 has been around since 1979. Who knows how many were already in the region.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

An armored column of 10 tanks magically appeared in rebel hands yesterday. Today they catch a large squad of russian paratroopers.


Ukraine has said that its forces have captured 10 Russian soldiers in the east of the country but Moscow has claimed the soldiers crossed the border accidentally.

The development comes as the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, and his Ukrainian counterpart Petro Poroshenko were getting ready to meet on Tuesday in Belarus in the presence of EU foreign affairs chief.

The Facebook page for the Ukraine's anti-rebel operation, which includes the military, the national guard and interior ministry forces, said on Tuesday that the soldiers were from a Russian paratrooper division and were captured on Monday in the area of Amvrosiivka, near the Russian border in the Donetsk region.

The posting did not give details of how the capture took place. It posted videos of five men it said were among the captives, one of whom said the soldiers had been told they were being mobilised to take part in military exercises.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/08/ukraine-says-seized-10-russian-soldiers-201482692425117550.html

[RandomGuy]

You know, the SA-11 has been around since 1979. Who knows how many were already in the region.

Meh. At this point, I am fairly sure you are being obtuse for a reason, and that reason isn't really to have a serious conversation.

Well played, I almost took you seriously.

[RandomGuy]

An armored column of 10 tanks magically appeared in rebel hands yesterday. Today they catch a large squad of russian paratroopers.



http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/08/ukraine-says-seized-10-russian-soldiers-201482692425117550.html

The chances of this escalating keep rising. Scary.

Volunteered for the Good Judgement Project, and one of the questions that they asked was if there would be a lethal confrontation (3+ KIAs) between Ukrainian military and Russia's before October 15.

I would say that chance is going up to "more likely than not" at this point.

[xeromass]

As Russia is bombing Ukrainians on the other side of the border it already happened. Months ago.

There are few videos of Ukrainian soldiers from areas along the border complaining they're getting pounded from the other side yet they're not allowed to answer with fire. Today NATO released satellite images of Russian artillery 4 miles from the border with barrels pointed towards Ukraine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/08/28/nato-these-new-satellite-images-show-russian-troops-in-and-around-ukraine/

http://img.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp-content/uploads/sites/33/2014/08/russians-aug28-41.jpg
http://img.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp-content/uploads/sites/33/2014/08/russians-aug28-51.jpg

[boutons_deux]

I figure Russia will take eastern Ukraine, sooner or later.

[pgardn]

I think I will go with the great Boots guess on this one.
Russia is just too paranoid to have another prospective NATO member.
The US and the EU view the situation as less serious for their national interest.

But economies will suffer, and the two most involved Nations, Ukraine and Russia, will suffer the most.
But then I guess they are used to it, the tough people, hard times characterization lives on.

[Wild Cobra]

I think I will go with the great Boots guess on this one.
Russia is just too paranoid to have another prospective NATO member.
The US and the EU view the situation as less serious for their national interest.

But economies will suffer, and the two most involved Nations, Ukraine and Russia, will suffer the most.
But then I guess they are used to it, the tough people, hard times characterization lives on.
I don't think the ethnic Russians are worried about the economy. I read where Kiev has been taxing the hell out of them, and returning next to nothing to their regions. Maybe for them, they see it better at the end of this. The loss of Crimea was a huge blow to Kiev in revenues.

[pgardn]

I don't think the ethnic Russians are worried about the economy. I read where Kiev has been taxing the hell out of them, and returning next to nothing to their regions. Maybe for them, they see it better at the end of this. The loss of Crimea was a huge blow to Kiev in revenues.

The Ukraine was already suffering, thus the turn towards the EU. Which in turn basically started this whole thing. Their past leaders have been terribly corrupt, whether they were Russian puppets, or even lenient with the vocal Nazi factions as well as more Euro centered. No Ghandi types here.

[boutons_deux]

Russia: US claims on nuclear missiles treaty unfounded, we have questions too

http://rt.com/news/176812-russia-missile-treaty-response/

[pgardn]

Looks like Russia is choosing the sanctions route.
When the Vodka becomes scarce, the people will turn.

[xeromass]

https://bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/

There is high possibility that Buk that downed MH17 came from 53th air defense brigade, based in Kursk. There are also some reports by witnesses where they unloaded it from the trailer that it has been operated by people speaking Russian with Moscow accent.

[RandomGuy]

https://bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/09/08/images-show-the-buk-that-downed-flight-mh17-inside-russia-controlled-by-russian-troops/

There is high possibility that Buk that downed MH17 came from 53th air defense brigade, based in Kursk. There are also some reports by witnesses where they unloaded it from the trailer that it has been operated by people speaking Russian with Moscow accent.

Damn. Pretty much nailed it. That was impressive.

[hater]

:lol russian boogeyman under the bed :lol

I'm gonna go ahead on a limb and say next country/organization that attacks us will not be russian.

[xeromass]

Guys, I think you're due a large gift basket straight to Moscow.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

This round includes 1st channel of Russian state TV and vice president of Russian Engineers Union. If they keep this up soon nobody will remember a thing about American statements before Iraq invasion. :toast

[Infinite_limit]

Guys, I think you're due a large gift basket straight to Moscow.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

This round includes 1st channel of Russian state TV and vice president of Russian Engineers Union. If they keep this up soon nobody will remember a thing about American statements before Iraq invasion. :toast
- 'Leaked' images show a missile streaking towards the MH17 flight
- Russian experts said Boeing was shot down by a Ukrainian warplane
- Kremlin-owned channel suggested a State crime was committed
- It was claimed that the space pictures were from a British or US satellite
- West has suggested the plane was shot down by pro-Moscow rebels




http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993353768_wps_22_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993366158_wps_23_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993381753_wps_24_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993391044_wps_25_Russian_Channel1_video_a_.jpg


An 'expert' called George Bilt was cited as saying the Boeing was shot out of the sky in 'a classic fighter jet attack from the rear'

[hater]

of course it was. You really believed the smoke and mirrors show starring Kerry, Obama and Ukranians?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol russian boogeyman under the bed :lol

I'm gonna go ahead on a limb and say next country/organization that attacks us will not be russian.

What do NATO mean? If you are not froma NATO country then I can understand this approach but the Poles are a NATO country and are shitting their pants. We have a treaty agreement and until the Italians, British, French, Poles and Turks want it changed it is what it is. I suggest you read up on Eastern Europe in the decades following WW2 if you want to know why they are concerned.

[m>s]

It's sad shitty day when the fucking ruskies are our only hope against this degeberacy and cultural rot, each and every leftist you're fucking responsible eat shit

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's sad shitty day when the fucking ruskies are our only hope against this degeberacy and cultural rot, each and every leftist you're fucking responsible eat shit

You understand that the Russians are calling the Ukrainian state fascist? You have no place to call home, nazi.

[m>s]

they're fake national socialists who are just kike pawns

[xeromass]

This is highly speculative, source is some guy on twitter. He seems solidly informed. It could be equivalent to live tweeting of Abbottabad raid or just another online weirdo. Until proven otherwise please consider it being weirdo ramblings.

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/534590143211274240

Scoop of the year! #Malaysia prosecutors have proof & will indict #Russia's "highest authorities" for providing men & missile to down #MH17.

1/3 #Malaysia prosecutors have established chain of command, will indict #Russia Def. Minister #Shoigu, Chief of General Staff Gerasimov,

2/3 Commander of #Russia Army Salyukov, an officer and 2 NCO's of the Russian Army, who fired the Buk and a bunch of #Donetsk rebel leaders.

3/3 #Putin will get off the hook for "diplomatic reasons"... #Malaysia discussing now with #Netherlands, #Australia when to go public. #MH17

Source: #EU diplomat, who is part of discussions re. possible #Russia/#Putin reaction and thus possible dangers to #Ukraine

[m>s]

Flight was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/11/no_author/the-last-seconds-of-malaysia-air-mh17-captured-on-film/

[xeromass]

There are many problems with alleged shoot-down photo but biggest and most obvious must be the size discrepancy. Objects on the ground are, well, on the ground, planes are supposedly flying 10 km high and spy sat is about 1000 km high. Distance between planes and the ground is negligible against distance to sat, yet passenger plane appears to be same size as Donetsk international airport.

Some German ex-pilot, who was previously widely quoted by conspiracy theorists, creatively solved the problem by saying that photo has been shoot by spy plane flying 14 km high. Yeah, sure. But, as said before, there are also many other problems.

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/russland-legt-beweise-zum-abschuss-der-mh-017-vor/

Richtigstellung: Um das hier veröffentlichte Bild ist eine erbitterte Diskussion entbrannt, ob es sich um eine Fälschung handelt, oder nicht. Neueste Recherchen haben ergeben, dass es sich bei diesem Bild nicht, wiederhole nicht um eine Satellitenaufnahme handelt. Vielmehr ist dieses Foto von einem Spionageflugzeug aufgenommen worden, das sich in einer Höhe von etwa 14 Kilometern aufgehalten hat. Das Kampfflugzeug ist keine MIG 29, sondern eine SU 27. Ich kann nicht einmal ausschließen, dass dieses Bild eine komplette Fälschung ist. Das ändert jedoch nichts Wesenliches an den folgenden Ausführungen, zeigt aber, dass in dieser Gegend noch viel mehr abläuft, als wir erfahren dürfen.

Sorry for use of metric system and German language but you shouldn't have a problem with that, nazi.

[m>s]

who benefits? there's your answer

[pgardn]

- 'Leaked' images show a missile streaking towards the MH17 flight
- Russian experts said Boeing was shot down by a Ukrainian warplane
- Kremlin-owned channel suggested a State crime was committed
- It was claimed that the space pictures were from a British or US satellite
- West has suggested the plane was shot down by pro-Moscow rebels




http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993353768_wps_22_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993366158_wps_23_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993381753_wps_24_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993391044_wps_25_Russian_Channel1_video_a_.jpg


An 'expert' called George Bilt was cited as saying the Boeing was shot out of the sky in 'a classic fighter jet attack from the rear'

There are too many articles to post destroying the amateurish nature of the above.
Putin is reported to have thrown a fit this was done so poorly and got out.

[m>s]

Lol "was said"

you our know it was once said that you're a dirty dog fucker and your mother was a prostitute

You and your government are accomplice to the murder women and children and innocents.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyTjMAfrZSM