Best defenders in NBA history?

[Thebesteva]

Who are your top 5?

I got Ben Wallace, Dikembe, Wilt, Payton, and Jabbar

[DAF86]

Manu, Ginobili, Emanuel, Gino, Messi.

[baseline bum]

No way Mutmobo and Wallace should be picked over Robinson and Olajuwon, and I'd take Russell over Wilt in a second defensively. Russell being so quick off his feet that he could tip the ball up to himself on blocks was ridiculous.

[baseline bum]

And no Pippen?

[illusioNtEk]

kawhi leonard

[HemisfairArena]

If your list doesn't include Dennis Rodman,,,,your list is shit. Dude was a lock down defender and could get in anyone's head to get them off their game.

[scanry]

Russell, Rodman, Hakeem, Pippen, Payton tbh.

[Raven]

So you take wilt and not bill.... hm....

[Brunodf]

Russell
Duncan



Everyone else

[poeticism707]

Who are your top 5?

I got Ben Wallace, Dikembe, Wilt, Payton, and Jabbar

Jabbar over TD?

Not in any era.

[AaronY]

Pippen, Duncan, Olajuwan, Rodman, MJ (Jerry West frequently mentioned that he thought Jordan was the best defender in the league for a bunch of years)

That moncrief guy was supposed to be great too but I never even seen a highlight video of him

[AaronY]

Maybe should break it up perimeter versus paint defenders hard to compare pippen to a guy like mutombo in terms of impact. Apples, oranges etc

[resistanze]

Rodman, Hakeem, Pippen, Robinson, Wallace

[Splits]

I'll go by position:

C - Russel
PF - Duncan
SF - Pippen
SG - Jordan
PG - Frazier

[CitizenDwayne]

Perimeter: Pippen, Bowen, MJ, Cooper, Doug Christie

Paint: Akeem, Rodman, Ben Wallace, Duncan, Kareem

[CitizenDwayne]

Oh and Keith Bogans

[spurraider21]

prime lebron aint bad either tbh

[baseline bum]

Perimeter: Pippen, Bowen, MJ, Cooper, Doug Christie

Paint: Akeem, Rodman, Ben Wallace, Duncan, Kareem

I'd take Ron Artest or Alvin Robertson over Christie any day.

[baseline bum]

If your list doesn't include Dennis Rodman,,,,your list is shit. Dude was a lock down defender and could get in anyone's head to get them off their game.

True. Detroit Rodman was probably the most versatile and best all-around defensive player in league history. Still an excellent defender in Chicago too, but god damn he was incredible in Detroit.

[baseline bum]

OK, so my list is Olajuwon, Robinson, Russell, Rodman, Pippen

[HemisfairArena]

Did Scottie Pippen or Tim Duncan ever win Defensive Player of the Year?,,,,I don't think so. As a Spurs fan,,,obviously I love our players past and present but while Duncan was/is a great defender,,,he isn't top 5 of All Time,,,just like Bowen was a great defender but isn't Top 5 of All Time.

Top 5 Defensive players would be Rodman, Wallace, Jordan, Wilt, and Hakeem,,,with an honorable mention for the Glove and DHoward.

[CitizenDwayne]

Did Scottie Pippen or Tim Duncan ever win Defensive Player of the Year?,,,,I don't think so. As a Spurs fan,,,obviously I love our players past and present but while Duncan was/is a great defender,,,he isn't top 5 of All Time,,,just like Bowen was a great defender but isn't Top 5 of All Time.

Top 5 Defensive players would be Rodman, Wallace, Jordan, Wilt, and Hakeem,,,with an honorable mention for the Glove and DHoward.

So are Marc Gasol and Dwight Howard among the greatest defenders of all time?

EDIT: Guess you consider DHoward to be in that group. My mistake.

[baseline bum]

Did Scottie Pippen or Tim Duncan ever win Defensive Player of the Year?,,,,I don't think so. As a Spurs fan,,,obviously I love our players past and present but while Duncan was/is a great defender,,,he isn't top 5 of All Time,,,just like Bowen was a great defender but isn't Top 5 of All Time.

Top 5 Defensive players would be Rodman, Wallace, Jordan, Wilt, and Hakeem,,,with an honorable mention for the Glove and DHoward.

Why Chamberlain over Russell?

[HemisfairArena]

Why Chamberlain over Russell?

Look at his stats while having to play in a league with more teams and a worse supporting cast than Russell had.

[HemisfairArena]

People underestimate how great DHoward is at defense. He is Dennis Rodman part 2 but taller with some offensive game. He has 3 straight Defensive Player of the Year award's. 5 Rebounding titles. Dude even carried a scrub Magic team to the Finals. And this guy is only 28.

[Juggity]

People underestimate how great DHoward is at defense. He is Dennis Rodman part 2 but taller with some offensive game. He has 3 straight Defensive Player of the Year award's. 5 Rebounding titles. Dude even carried a scrub Magic team to the Finals. And this guy is only 28.

There was a time when he was the second or third best player in the league around 2009 or 2010. He's slipped a lot since then though tbh. After that herniated disk and back surgery, he's been a more marginal top 10 player. That said, 3 DPOYs is very good historically. At his peak, he was great.

[sook]

Russell, Rodman, Hakeem, Pippen, Payton tbh.

A lot of 90s ball..

[m>s]

steve nash
kirby
melo
kevin love
amare

[Chris]

:lol Ben Wallace

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/183/879/1318188300003.gif

[Jenks]

I'm partial to bigs when it comes to D. Wilt, Robinson, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan

[DMC]

So the best defenders are bigs? Is blocking shots the pinnacle of defense? I know they alter them to and sure a dominant presence in the paint changes the game, but you have people out there who play perimeter defense, and when the best players in the game are guards, how is a center the best defender?

With advanced metrics, you'd think defense could be quantified by things other than blocked shots and steals.

[HemisfairArena]

So the best defenders are bigs? Is blocking shots the pinnacle of defense? I know they alter them to and sure a dominant presence in the paint changes the game, but you have people out there who play perimeter defense, and when the best players in the game are guards, how is a center the best defender?

With advanced metrics, you'd think defense could be quantified by things other than blocked shots and steals.

Its simple, DMC. The closer to the basket,,,the easier to score and harder to defend. Its easy to stick a hand in a guys face shooting a 19 ft jumper and pretend you are a great defender when he misses as opposed to a guy in the paint having to deny him from 6-8 feet out.

[Jenks]

So the best defenders are bigs? Is blocking shots the pinnacle of defense? I know they alter them to and sure a dominant presence in the paint changes the game, but you have people out there who play perimeter defense, and when the best players in the game are guards, how is a center the best defender?

With advanced metrics, you'd think defense could be quantified by things other than blocked shots and steals.I'll let Ewing explain for me at 4:15


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1RVbJKQhPw

[Arcadian]

Russell, Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Robinson, Motumbo

[HemisfairArena]

Russell, Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Robinson, Motumbo

Robinson?,,,,cmon,,,,as a Spurs fan I loved Rodman getting traded here and calling David a wimp. If Robinson had any toughness,,,we have titles before Timmy arrived. I remember Karl Malone knocking David out while I also remember Rodman crushing Malone and laughing about it when he was with the Bulls.

[Buddy Mignon]

Rodman is the best I've seen. He could guard 1-5 with ease. GP, Alvin Robertson, and Cooper are the best guards I've seen... you can throw Derek Harper in there too. Hakeem and Wilt were the best at the center position. There is not one player in today's game that can be considered a good defensive player. Bowen was a product of a system.

[DMC]

Its simple, DMC. The closer to the basket,,,the easier to score and harder to defend. Its easy to stick a hand in a guys face shooting a 19 ft jumper and pretend you are a great defender when he misses as opposed to a guy in the paint having to deny him from 6-8 feet out.

Not really. If Marcus Camby can be the DPoY and Bruce Bowen never was, then there's something wrong with your assessment and how people look at NBA defense in general. How much switching does a center have to do? Not much, he's just weak side help. What powerhouse team has a center as their best offensive player today? Even when MJ played, he was the best. If you could stop MJ you could stop the Bulls, and he didn't have to get to the rim over and over. He could shoot. Defending at the rim is highlight stuff, but perimeter defense, hands that cause a star to put the ball on the floor when he doesn't want to, or to pass to a lower threat wins championships.

Perimeter defenders are underrated because they don't collect blocked shots, and people like Chris Paul are overrated because they collect steals. Good defenders who can guard the 2 through 4 positions are a hot commodity, and yet they get overlooked during talks about best defenders.

[DMC]

Rodman is the best I've seen. He could guard 1-5 with ease. GP, Alvin Robertson, and Cooper are the best guards I've seen... you can throw Derek Harper in there too. Hakeem and Wilt were the best at the center position. There is not one player in today's game that can be considered a good defensive player. Bowen was a product of a system.
I was with you until that last one. Leonard is a good defensive player, and Bowen was a great defensive player. There's no one on one system, and that's how Bruce and Kawhi defend. They aren't out there funneling stars to Tim.

[DMC]

I'll let Ewing explain for me at 4:15


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1RVbJKQhPw

So then a PG is always the best on offense because he's the floor general on the offensive end. Great logic, also too.

[ambchang]

Pippen Payton Robinson Hakeem Rodman.

Jordan Russell Artest Walton Moncrief, Dennis Johnson comes next.

Bowen Lebron Wallace comes after.

Mutombo was an extremely overrated defensive player, basically serge Ibaka in the 90s. Mourning was a way better defender.

[HemisfairArena]

Not really. If Marcus Camby can be the DPoY and Bruce Bowen never was, then there's something wrong with your assessment and how people look at NBA defense in general. How much switching does a center have to do? Not much, he's just weak side help. What powerhouse team has a center as their best offensive player today? Even when MJ played, he was the best. If you could stop MJ you could stop the Bulls, and he didn't have to get to the rim over and over. He could shoot. Defending at the rim is highlight stuff, but perimeter defense, hands that cause a star to put the ball on the floor when he doesn't want to, or to pass to a lower threat wins championships.

Perimeter defenders are underrated because they don't collect blocked shots, and people like Chris Paul are overrated because they collect steals. Good defenders who can guard the 2 through 4 positions are a hot commodity, and yet they get overlooked during talks about best defenders.

Yes,,,,really. Paint players score at a higher clip percentage and are harder to guard than perimeter players,,,,its not hard to grasp, DMC,,,,c'mon

[Buddy Mignon]

I was with you until that last one. Leonard is a good defensive player, and Bowen was a great defensive player. There's no one on one system, and that's how Bruce and Kawhi defend. They aren't out there funneling stars to Tim.

I don't have Leonard as a good defender just yet. He has the tools but he's still a long ways away. Bowen was good, but far from great. He was 32 before ever being voted on the all defensive 1st team, which was three years after joining the Spurs. He was more annoying with his tactics than anything. I have Bowen in the Doug Christie/Rick Fox league. I'd take a Joe Dumars or Paul Pressey over Bowen any day.

[Malik Hairston]

The top 4 are clear IMO(in no order, though), 5th is up for debate..

Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon are the most elite defenders in history, all combining an unparalleled ability to intimidate in the paint along with the speed to rotate to the perimeter..

I'd have Duncan at 5th, with Garnett as another option, and maybe Mutombo/Ewing/Rodman as other options..

I can't believe there are people in this thread listing Gary Payton:lmao..statistically, he had very minimal impact on the defense of his teams, tbh..

[HemisfairArena]

The top 4 are clear IMO(in no order, though), 5th is up for debate..

Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon are the most elite defenders in history, all combining an unparalleled ability to intimidate in the paint along with the speed to rotate to the perimeter..

I'd have Duncan at 5th, with Garnett as another option, and Mutombo/Ewing as other options..

I can't believe there are people in this thread listing Gary Payton:lmao..statistically, he had very minimal impact on the defense of his teams, tbh..

The fact you dont have Rodman as a top 5 speaks volumes. Robinson over Rodman? LMAO

[Jenks]

So then a PG is always the best on offense because he's the floor general on the offensive end. Great logic, also too.
Who said they're always the best?

[DMC]

I don't have Leonard as a good defender just yet. He has the tools but he's still a long ways away. Bowen was good, but far from great. He was 32 before ever being voted on the all defensive 1st team, which was three years after joining the Spurs. He was more annoying with his tactics than anything. I have Bowen in the Doug Christie/Rick Fox league. I'd take a Joe Dumars or Paul Pressey over Bowen any day.

Votes are all you need to know to totally ignore those things. Results are what matters. Kobe was on the all defensive team and didn't play a lick of defense... so.. I guess he's a better defender than Bowen.

[DMC]

Who said they're always the best?

If Pat's logic holds up, then the center is the floor general on defense thus, according to you, the best defender on the floor. Same then must be true on offense for the PG.

[Buddy Mignon]

Pippen Payton Robinson Hakeem Rodman.

Jordan Russell Artest Walton Moncrief, Dennis Johnson comes next.

Bowen Lebron Wallace comes after.

Mutombo was an extremely overrated defensive player, basically serge Ibaka in the 90s. Mourning was a way better defender.




I don't see why anyone would rank Jordan as a great defender. There is too much footage of him getting torched. Watch how easily Bird torches Jordan.

svHk8Zntc5g

[Malik Hairston]

It's amazing how much nostalgia and the era without metrics has affected perception, tbh..

The stories of Gary Payton competing against a past prime Jordan and having a "Glove" nickname..

[Buddy Mignon]

Votes are all you need to know to totally ignore those things. Results are what matters. Kobe was on the all defensive team and didn't play a lick of defense... so.. I guess he's a better defender than Bowen.

Kobe was a better defender than Bowen. Bowen was in the league a good 8 years before people start making a big deal about his defense. And most of it was dirty.

[DMC]

I don't see why anyone would rank Jordan as a great defender. There is too much footage of him getting torched. Watch how easily Bird torches Jordan.

svHk8Zntc5g
Michael Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan), Gary Payton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton), Garnett, and Bryant share the record for most NBA All-Defensive first team selections with nine.

There goes the "all defensive team only after age 32" argument...

[DMC]

Kobe was a better defender than Bowen. Bowen was in the league a good 8 years before people start making a big deal about his defense. And most of it was dirty.

You're confusing popularity and recognition with ability.

[Malik Hairston]

The fact you dont have Rodman as a top 5 speaks volumes. Robinson over Rodman? LMAO

Rodman was a good, even great defender that had a nice statistical impact on the defenses of his teams, but nothing historic..

David Robinson's defensive on/off metrics are mind-blowing, tbh..

[Buddy Mignon]

Rodman was a good, even great defender that had a nice statistical impact on the defenses of his teams, but nothing historic..

David Robinson's defensive on/off metrics are mind-blowing, tbh..


Except for when facing Hakeem when it mattered.

[Buddy Mignon]

Michael Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan), Gary Payton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Payton), Garnett, and Bryant share the record for most NBA All-Defensive first team selections with nine.

There goes the "all defensive team only after age 32" argument...

Kobe and KG were good for their era's, but not great. Payton was great. Jordan was good but not great. Bowen was good but not great. Like I said... he was damn there an old man by the time teams start considering him a good defender.

[HemisfairArena]

Rodman was a good defender that had a nice impact on the defenses of his teams, but nothing historic..

David Robinson's defensive on/off metrics are mind-blowing, tbh..

Rodman did things as a Small Forward that will probably never be done again. The league hated his rebellion,,,if he dressed in a suit without dyed hair, piercings, and tattoo's,,,,He would have more acculades,,

[HemisfairArena]

Rodman won 7 straight rebounding titles in a row. How the fuck do you win 7 straight rebounding titles as a small forward if you aren't a fucking defensive badass? He was only 6'7 and 220. Dude played like he was 7 foot and 320.

[100%duncan]

Lebron anyone?

[Jenks]

If Pat's logic holds up, then the center is the floor general on defense thus, according to you, the best defender on the floor. Same then must be true on offense for the PG.Let me help you with an analogy from another sport because no, that's not his argument.

Quarterback is by far the most important position for an offense in football.
Trent Dilfer wasn't the best player on the Ravens offense when they won the Superbowl in 2000.

Pat (and I) aren't arguing that C is always the best defender on the court, just that the job is the most important. Easy example, Jordan and Pippen >>>>>> Longley.

If you want recent example of how a great defensive big can change a game, look at Ibaka in this years WCF. A great perimeter defender can't change a series like that.

[cd021]

Did Scottie Pippen or Tim Duncan ever win Defensive Player of the Year?,,,,I don't think so. As a Spurs fan,,,obviously I love our players past and present but while Duncan was/is a great defender,,,he isn't top 5 of All Time,,,just like Bowen was a great defender but isn't Top 5 of All Time.

Top 5 Defensive players would be Rodman, Wallace, Jordan, Wilt, and Hakeem,,,with an honorable mention for the Glove and DHoward.

Duncan is easily top 5 all time. 98.1 Defensive Win Shares, Career D Rtg of 95.

Howard had a couple of dominant defensive seasons. Particularly in 09-10 season but hasn't been nearly as good sense then. He should even been mentioned.

[DMC]

Kobe and KG were good for their era's, but not great. Payton was great. Jordan was good but not great. Bowen was good but not great. Like I said... he was damn there an old man by the time teams start considering him a good defender.

So you've used a double standard. You said Bowen wasn't a great defender because he wasn't on the all defensive team, yet Jordan holds a record for number of all defensive teams and he wasn't a great defender. I think we can rule out all defensive teams as a standard for greatness on defense.

[Jenks]

Robinson?,,,,cmon,,,,as a Spurs fan I loved Rodman getting traded here and calling David a wimp. If Robinson had any toughness,,,we have titles before Timmy arrived. I remember Karl Malone knocking David out while I also remember Rodman crushing Malone and laughing about it when he was with the Bulls.
This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read.

In fact, if you swapped Horry for your boy Rodman, Robinson would have gotten a ring in 95. Having a complete fucking waste (as opposed to a legendary stretch 4) next to him allowed the Rockets to double on every possession (and triple a lot because Robinson was still scoring).

Another fucking revisionist clown watching ESPN clips of the Dream shake and calling Robinson soft.

http://giant.gfycat.com/RecklessJadedGrunion.gif

I'll leave these here, too
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html


Fuck you, and fuck Rodman, the worst Spur ever. I bet you thought it was hilarious when he refused to participate in team huddles during timeouts in 95 WCF, shithead.

[DMC]

Let me help you with an analogy from another sport because no, that's not his argument.

Quarterback is by far the most important position for an offense in football.
Trent Dilfer wasn't the best player on the Ravens offense when they won the Superbowl in 2000.

Pat (and I) aren't arguing that C is always the best defender on the court, just that the job is the most important. Easy example, Jordan and Pippen >>>>>> Longley.

If you want recent example of how a great defensive big can change a game, look at Ibaka in this years WCF. A great perimeter defender can't change a series like that.

So it's the most important (I don't agree), that doesn't mean the center is the best defender. All the names given by some of you were centers, yet there's no center with 9 all defensive team selections.

[HemisfairArena]

This is one of the most retarded things I've ever read.

In fact, if you swapped Horry for your boy Rodman, Robinson would have gotten a ring in 95. Having a complete fucking waste (as opposed to a legendary stretch 4) next to him allowed the Rockets to double on every possession (and triple a lot because Robinson was still scoring).

Another fucking revisionist clown watching ESPN clips of the Dream shake and calling Robinson soft.

http://giant.gfycat.com/RecklessJadedGrunion.gif

I'll leave these here, too
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_career.html


Fuck you, and fuck Rodman, the worst Spur ever. I bet you thought it was hilarious when he refused to participate in team huddles during timeouts in 95 WCF, shithead.

Take it easy,,,,you aren't the only clueless one on this site,,,,I'm with ya,,,,we're both stupid.

[-21-]

In no order, off the top of my head:

Paint

Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard

Perimeter

Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Michael Cooper, Gary Payton, Ron Artest

[Jenks]

So it's the most important (I don't agree), that doesn't mean the center is the best defender. All the names given by some of you were centers, yet there's no center with 9 all defensive team selections.I said up front I was partial to bigs. If I was picking the top 5 offensive football players, they'd all be quarterbacks. If I was to pick the best offensive player in the 2000 Ravens, it wouldn't be Dilfer. I have no problem with you disagreeing that bigs aren't the most important, just explaining to you my reasoning. I don't think center is automatically > non center, that would be silly.

[Jenks]

we're both stupid.
Fuck it, I'll drink to that

[mercos]

PG - Gary Payton
SG - Scottie Pippen (I know he was a small forward, but fuck it, can't leave him off the list.)
SF - Dennis Rodman
PF - Tim Duncan
C - Hakeem Olajuwon

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

I'll do them in terms of position.

1st team:
Olajuwon, Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, Payton

2nd team:
Chamberlain, Duncan, LeBron, Cooper, Magic

3rd team:
Russell, Garnett, Marion, Kobe, Kidd

[ginobilized]

Here are 3 lesser knowns to be considered:

Ron Harper was such a good defender that MJ made sure he was on the Bulls

Dennis Johnson was pretty tough back in the day too

How about Bobby Jones? That dude was the bomb

[Thebesteva]

Here are 3 lesser knowns to be considered:

Ron Harper was such a good defender that MJ made sure he was on the Bulls

Dennis Johnson was pretty tough back in the day too

How about Bobby Jones? That dude was the bomb

Ron Harper is one of the most forgotten great role players ever

[Leetonidas]

I hate that faggot but tbh KG is getting severely underrated in this thread. Dude is arguably a better defensive player than Duncan

[Leetonidas]

And honestly not even trying to be a homer but imo Bruce Bowen was the best perimeter defender I've seen in since I started watching ball in 99. He would make life hell for PGs like Nash, make Kobe work harder than any other defender (Kobe himself has said this), hell you could even switch him on to players like Dirk for short stretches. Dude was an iron man and never missed games. I even remember a game way back when against the Raps where he locked down Bosh in the final minutes of the game. Versatility is important and imo Bowen was the perfect combo of being able to stay in front of players and being up in their grill at the same time.

Artest was also a monster when he was in his prime. Mourning is also severely underrated imo. And Robinson was one of the top 5 ever imo, if you look at his defensive metrics when he was old and broken down you could still see he was on par with prime Duncan.

[Brunodf]

People underestimate how great DHoward is at defense. He is Dennis Rodman part 2 but taller with some offensive game. He has 3 straight Defensive Player of the Year award's. 5 Rebounding titles. Dude even carried a scrub Magic team to the Finals. And this guy is only 28.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjNUmEMQ8rOjSJtDggSJVAO2vS6xDvv mQifkeuYHvUx2xM58La

[TDMVPDPOY]

ben wallace is overrated

the person who doesnt get the most benefit for changing that pistons team around was rasheed wallace, b4 he even got to the team, team was jackshit, all of a sudden the signing of rasheed they became what they are....

if ben was so good, why did he become tosb after signing that max contract from the bulls, didnt do shit or put up 1 good season

[Tuddy]

Bowen

[TDMVPDPOY]

I hate that faggot but tbh KG is getting severely underrated in this thread. Dude is arguably a better defensive player than Duncan

lolplayed with another 3 guys who were above avg defenders when he won dpoy, same with big ben

[ambchang]

I don't see why anyone would rank Jordan as a great defender. There is too much footage of him getting torched. Watch how easily Bird torches Jordan.

svHk8Zntc5g

Because Jordan got all the calls on defense later on in his career.

And bird torches everyone.

Also forgot cooper in the group.

Overrated defenders: mutombo, Ben Wallace Dwight Howard wilt (think deandre jordan on steroids) Alvin Robertson.

Most perimeter defenders in the last 8 or so years are very much underrated, the rules have really hampered them.

[ambchang]

It's amazing how much nostalgia and the era without metrics has affected perception, tbh..

The stories of Gary Payton competing against a past prime Jordan and having a "Glove" nickname..

A) Payton was called the glove way before 96. In 93 when he was locking down KJ vs the suns.
B) that past prime Jordan just led the bulls to a 72-10 record and led the league in scoring.
C) Payton started making all d teams since 94
D) Payton won DPoY in 96 and got the award before the finals series vs Jordan. It was extremely rare for perimeter players to win DPoY back in the day.

[ambchang]

Rodman won 7 straight rebounding titles in a row. How the fuck do you win 7 straight rebounding titles as a small forward if you aren't a fucking defensive badass? He was only 6'7 and 220. Dude played like he was 7 foot and 320.

Rodman was incredible with the pistons but he wasn't with the spurs because he didn't give a damn.

Don't confuse rebounding with defense. David lee Kevin love and cookie jar all can rebound but none of them can play d.
Also rodman played d the best before he started rebounding like a maniac.

[Gagnrath]

Rodman was incredible with the pistons but he wasn't with the spurs because he didn't give a damn.

Don't confuse rebounding with defense. David lee Kevin love and cookie jar all can rebound but none of them can play d.
Also rodman played d the best before he started rebounding like a maniac.

He also played offense with the Pistons and not with the spurs or with the bulls. Figuring out the looniness that is/was Rodman would take more space than this forum can host.

[Kidd K]

Russell, Rodman, Hakeem, Pippen, Payton tbh.

Good list, but I would take Duncan and Mutumbo over Payton and Pippen. Bigs have a larger impact defensively than wing guys. Pippen though was certainly one of the best non big man defenders. There was a player for the Bucks back in the 80's named Sidney Moncrief was who ridiculously good, though it always seems like no one remembers him.

[Gagnrath]

Good list, but I would take Duncan and Mutumbo over Payton and Pippen. Bigs have a larger impact defensively than wing guys. Pippen though was certainly one of the best non big man defenders. There was a player for the Bucks back in the 80's named Sidney Moncrief was who ridiculously good, though it always seems like no one remembers him.


Hard to remember someone who plays for a team in a city everyone wants to forget.

[Malik Hairston]

Gary Payton adjusted defensive on/off results:

1993: above average
1994: above average
1995: average
1996: above average
1997: above average
1998: average
1999: negative impact on his team
2000: average
2001: negative
2002: negative
2003: negative

There was never a season where Payton's teams suffered significantly on defense when he left the floor, and didn't improve much when he was on the floor..

You can argue against the numbers, but they translate well for every other great defender, even on the perimeter(Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Bowen, Rodman, Tony Allen, Iguodala, etc all have high-impact defensive on/off metrics that display their importance to them team)..

[Malik Hairston]

Using the great Scottie Pippen's metrics as a comparison:

1992: high
1993: high
1994: historic
1995: elite
1996: elite
1997: high
1998: average
1999: high
2000: high

[Jenks]

wilt (think deandre jordan on steroids)
Go ahead and pump Deandre Jordan full of all the steroids in the world. Wilt had 17 blocks in his first NBA game and 25 in a single game. He could block shots FEET over the rim. Add the fact that he's the greatest rebounder in history. Deandre Jordan, yeah ok.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

Obligatory stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trb_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_per_g_career.html

[DMC]

Wasn't that back when goal tending was never called?

[Clipper Nation]

Ron Harper is one of the most forgotten great role players ever

Never mind his time as a role player, people forget how good he was for a couple years as a primary option on the Clippers after he tore his ACL.... one of the best players never to make an All-Star Game...

[Leetonidas]

lolplayed with another 3 guys who were above avg defenders when he won dpoy, same with big ben

He also posted elite numbers playing with shit in Minnesota and had elite advanced defensive metrics even this year. His team's defense when he is off the floor is garbage compared to him being on the floor. Like I said, KG is a massive bitch but he was a legit defensive beast

[pgardn]

Good list, but I would take Duncan and Mutumbo over Payton and Pippen. Bigs have a larger impact defensively than wing guys. Pippen though was certainly one of the best non big man defenders. There was a player for the Bucks back in the 80's named Sidney Moncrief was who ridiculously good, though it always seems like no one remembers him.

Moncrief, Delph, Brewer...

Pigs, suueee...

[Perry Mason]

Too many are underrating Duncan and the hallmarks of consistency, flexibility and and longevity. And overrating players that had 2-3 years of elite performance followed by nothing special, or that did nothing but defense and spent no effort on the other side of the court. Or that ultimately were great at one or two skills at defense but failed at the whole picture.

Duncan's advanced metrics for the first 10 years of his career are amazing. And during this time, he won 4 titles as THE defensive anchor and team leader. So many others mention great defenders for a few years that may have one ring. The prime Duncan Spurs are the best defensive team of all time, maybe not in a single season but for the entire stretch overall. It's like comparing Hakeem to Duncan. Duncan wins because of consistency and longevity. You get credit for adjusting your game and staying elite.

In the the years that have followed, Duncan has had a slow decline but has maintained his role as the defensive anchor and adjusted his game to maximize the strengths he retained. He is still the center of the defense at the age of 38.

[ambchang]

Go ahead and pump Deandre Jordan full of all the steroids in the world. Wilt had 17 blocks in his first NBA game and 25 in a single game. He could block shots FEET over the rim. Add the fact that he's the greatest rebounder in history. Deandre Jordan, yeah ok.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

Obligatory stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trb_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_per_g_career.html

Defense isn't about blocks or rebounding stats. Camby blocks a lot of shots, he wasn't a particularly great defender. Kevin Willis grabbed borne, he wasn't a particularly good defender.

Wilt didn't anchor a defense the way Russell did. He didn't change the entire complexion of his team and turned those defensive stats into a dominant defensive team.

Total monkey baller defensive player.

[Jenks]

Defense isn't about blocks or rebounding stats. Camby blocks a lot of shots, he wasn't a particularly great defender. Kevin Willis grabbed borne, he wasn't a particularly good defender.

Wilt didn't anchor a defense the way Russell did. He didn't change the entire complexion of his team and turned those defensive stats into a dominant defensive team.

Total monkey baller defensive player.
Most dominant player in the history of the NBA, most athletic 7 footer in the history of the NBA. Dismiss by saying rebounds and blocks are meaningless and athleticism = monkeyball. K.

And FYI I don't know why you'd single out Camby, he was a damn good defender, with a DPOY to back it up.

[spurraider21]

a dominant defensive big can hold a defense down for stretches. a dominant perimeter defender is worthless if on a poor overall defensive squad, though. the Heat got shredded defensively even though Lebron is no slouch. Orlando was a stout defensive team with Dwight even with guys like Turkoglu and Rashard being starters

[Thread]

Moncrief, Delph, Brewer...

Pigs, suueee...

...The Triplets.

[Thread]

What I have found most impressive thru the years is not live defensive moments, but, moments that are caught by the production truck and then aired.

[Killakobe81]

The best defenders I ever saw by position:

Center: Hakeem
PF: Rodman (pistons version over overrated Bulls version)
SF: Pippen
SG: Cooper
PG: The Glove over Dennis Johnson

Honorable Mention:

Centers: David Robinson, Alonzo and Dwight (LOL at those using DPOY Dwight is a great defender but not even top 5 among bigs I have seen)
PF: Timmy KG & Ben Wallace (Karl Malone and McHale were overrated Ben played center in a weak era for centers if Tim is a PF, Wallace is too)
SF: Bowen, Lebron James (overrated but still very good when locked in)
SG: Tony Allen, Jordan and Kobe (Jordan and Kobe overrated on that end but like Lebron when locked in very good)
PG: Prime Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Mo cheeks, Nate McMillan

Although at their best the superstars that were great defenders were better than guys I chose EXCEPT Hakeem I think the defensive specialists like Cooper and Rodman deserve the edge over Jordan, Tim etc who had so much offensive burden they could not always lock in on defense.

[Thebesteva]

Never mind his time as a role player, people forget how good he was for a couple years as a primary option on the Clippers after he tore his ACL.... one of the best players never to make an All-Star Game...

We finally agree on something. Good form

[CitizenDwayne]

What about Ewing? Where exactly do you guys think he falls defensively when compared to Hakeem, Robinson, etc?

[jimbo]

Too many are underrating Duncan and the hallmarks of consistency, flexibility and and longevity. And overrating players that had 2-3 years of elite performance followed by nothing special, or that did nothing but defense and spent no effort on the other side of the court. Or that ultimately were great at one or two skills at defense but failed at the whole picture.

Duncan's advanced metrics for the first 10 years of his career are amazing. And during this time, he won 4 titles as THE defensive anchor and team leader. So many others mention great defenders for a few years that may have one ring. The prime Duncan Spurs are the best defensive team of all time, maybe not in a single season but for the entire stretch overall. It's like comparing Hakeem to Duncan. Duncan wins because of consistency and longevity. You get credit for adjusting your game and staying elite.

In the the years that have followed, Duncan has had a slow decline but has maintained his role as the defensive anchor and adjusted his game to maximize the strengths he retained. He is still the center of the defense at the age of 38.

Helps that the Prime Duncan years were in the shittiest era for offensive basketball.

Legal zone defense + handchecking

lol

[Killakobe81]

What about Ewing? Where exactly do you guys think he falls defensively when compared to Hakeem, Robinson, etc?

Ewing was better than Hakeem in college on defense and his first few years in the league I thought he was amazing but his offense got better his defense fell off ...I think he was till very good but you make a case for ALonzo, Mutombo as well as HAkeem and David all being better defenders.

[Malik Hairston]

Helps that the Prime Duncan years were in the shittiest era for offensive basketball.

Legal zone defense + handchecking

lol

That's the case for pretty much everybody on these lists, tbh:lol..

[baseline bum]

Helps that the Prime Duncan years were in the shittiest era for offensive basketball.

Legal zone defense + handchecking

lol

Handchecking was removed in 1994 tbh

[spurraider21]

I'll do them in terms of position.

1st team:
Olajuwon, Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, Payton

2nd team:
Chamberlain, Duncan, LeBron, Cooper, Magic

3rd team:
Russell, Garnett, Marion, Kobe, Kidd
Magic? :lmao

[El Guapo]

Pinche rodman had his chance to guard hakeem and prove he was a great defender in 95. He pussed out.

[ambchang]

Gary Payton adjusted defensive on/off results:

1993: above average
1994: above average
1995: average
1996: above average
1997: above average
1998: average
1999: negative impact on his team
2000: average
2001: negative
2002: negative
2003: negative

There was never a season where Payton's teams suffered significantly on defense when he left the floor, and didn't improve much when he was on the floor..

You can argue against the numbers, but they translate well for every other great defender, even on the perimeter(Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Bowen, Rodman, Tony Allen, Iguodala, etc all have high-impact defensive on/off metrics that display their importance to them team)..

Please post link. Not familiar with defensive plus minus.

[superbigtime]

Rather have Alonzo Mourning than Ben Wallace.

[HemisfairArena]

Pinche rodman had his chance to guard hakeem and prove he was a great defender in 95. He pussed out.

So a 6'7 Rodman should've guarded a 7 foot Hakeem? I guess Parker should guard LeBron also,,,,Bruce Bowen should have guarded Shaq,,,,

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

So a 6'7 Rodman should've guarded a 7 foot Hakeem? I guess Parker should guard LeBron also,,,,Bruce Bowen should have guarded Shaq,,,,

:lol Rodman shut down a 7'3 Shaq multiple times

[HemisfairArena]

:lol Rodman shut down a 7'3 Shaq multiple times

Rodman never shutdown Shaq in his prime in any playoff series,,,,Ever. But Rodman is a top 5 defensive player of All Time.

[El Guapo]

Lol...who did rodman shutdown in 95....olajuwan or horry? Careful ese...ees trick question.

[HemisfairArena]

Lol...who did rodman shutdown in 95....olajuwan or horry? Careful ese...ees trick question.

So Rodman should have carried Robinson's whimpy ass on defense like Duncan had to?

[El Guapo]

So Rodman should have carried Robinson's whimpy ass on defense like Duncan had to?

Hey, your the pendejo rating him so high. Why not?

[HemisfairArena]

Hey, your the pendejo rating him so high. Why not?

He is top 5,,,,when did I say he wasn't?,,,,you seem upset he didn't shutdown everyone every year he played.

[El Guapo]

Hey...when it counted in 95...he was a no show. Spurs could have 6.

[El Guapo]

Pendejo.

[HemisfairArena]

Hey...when it counted in 95...he was a no show. Spurs could have 6.

When it counted?,,,LMAO. Take it easy, illegal.

[El Guapo]

He was laying down with his shoes off and in coocoo land during timeouts and he ees one of the best...I think not cavron!

[spurraider21]

:lol Rodman shut down a 7'3 Shaq multiple times
i don't think i've ever seen Shaq listed as 7'3 :lol. dude's unanimously listed at 7'1

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

And FYI I don't know why you'd single out Camby, he was a damn good defender, with a DPOY to back it up.

The year Marcus Camby won the DPOY his team was in the bottom 3 in points allowed per game @ 105 or something similar. Ridiculous. But he got blocks and rebounds :(

[ambchang]

Most dominant player in the history of the NBA, most athletic 7 footer in the history of the NBA. Dismiss by saying rebounds and blocks are meaningless and athleticism = monkeyball. K.

And FYI I don't know why you'd single out Camby, he was a damn good defender, with a DPOY to back it up.

Camby was about the most overrated defender in the last little while. Sort of like Serge Ibaka.

As for dominance, Wilt was dominant on the offensive front no doubt, you can even say that he was a dominant individual defender, but he was not a GOAT defender.

Not sure if you have watched him play, but his style of defense was similar to that of DeAndre Jordan. He blocked a lot of shots, rebounded a lot, even deterred a lot of shots, but his style of D was not impactful like that of Russell, where he could win championships by anchoring a defense. Sure Russell had a bunch of HoFers next to him, but the way he can manage to shape the course of the game was unique. People who never saw him took him as some kind of Ben Wallace type defender, but he was more like a GOAT defender like how Magic and Jordan were the GOAT offensive player. The closest I can come up with is that Russell had the one on one defense of Robinson and the team defensive smarts of Duncan.

If you want to go by statistics, Wilt had his career high in DWS of 10.7, leading the league once in that category (can't compare this with modern day numbers as the calculations are totally different), whereas Bill Russell had 6 seasons with more than a 10.7 DWS, leading the league 8 times in that category.

As for Camby, his career high DWS was 5.9, never once led the league in that category. For comparison's sake, Robinson have 9 seasons of 6 or higher, leading the league 3 times, Duncan had 9 seasons of 6 or higher, leading the league 5 times.can.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

?
Rodman never shutdown Shaq in his prime in any playoff series,,,,Ever. But Rodman is a top 5 defensive player of All Time.

You are wrong


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbO6EBgWntI

Shaq pissed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S05-vxPs7Ds

[Cry Havoc]

Russell, Rodman, Hakeem, Pippen, Payton tbh.

That's a great list. Duncan needs to be in there as well, maybe just outside the top 5.

[moisaenz]

Kobe: 5

the tired old shit bag Duncan: 5

[dunkman]

Russell, Hakeem, Rodman, Pippen, LeBron

[Kidd K]

Too many are underrating Duncan and the hallmarks of consistency, flexibility and and longevity. And overrating players that had 2-3 years of elite performance followed by nothing special, or that did nothing but defense and spent no effort on the other side of the court. Or that ultimately were great at one or two skills at defense but failed at the whole picture.

Duncan's advanced metrics for the first 10 years of his career are amazing. And during this time, he won 4 titles as THE defensive anchor and team leader. So many others mention great defenders for a few years that may have one ring. The prime Duncan Spurs are the best defensive team of all time, maybe not in a single season but for the entire stretch overall. It's like comparing Hakeem to Duncan. Duncan wins because of consistency and longevity. You get credit for adjusting your game and staying elite.

In the the years that have followed, Duncan has had a slow decline but has maintained his role as the defensive anchor and adjusted his game to maximize the strengths he retained. He is still the center of the defense at the age of 38.

Tim Duncan: 2nd best career defensive rating in NBA history. Only isn't first because it's dropped a bit since he's playing 'til 40.

Definitely underrated, even by diehard Spursfans who may not even realize that stat. Same people who underrate DRob's overall impact purely because of that series against Hakeem.

[Infinite_limit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo