Full translation of Manu Ginobili's La Nación column

[spursparker9]

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/36419584/450688748.0_standard_709.0.jpg


A few months ago, after winning the NBA championship with the Spurs, I tweeted "I'm in", in reference to the upcoming World Cup in Spain. The truth is I had finished the competition in good shape, I was euphoric and I wanted to be with the guys one more time. I never imagined what was going to happen next. After that announcement, on a routine exit physical an MRI caused doctors to suspect I had a stress fracture on my fibula. A few days later, after I returned from vacation, a CAT scan confirmed the initial prognosis.

That's when things became complicated.

The Spurs automatically asked me to sit out the tournament, but I didn't make much of it at the time. I understood the logic behind their concerns but disagreed about the time line for recovery the franchise's doctors advised for in their report. I looked for second opinions from specialist in the area who told me the fracture was very small and the 40 days between the last game against the Heat and the first day of the national team's training camp were more than enough for it to heal completely.

As it's well known, I had agreed with the Spurs to do a new MRI and CAT scan on the 25th, to see how the injury was progressing. The local doctors were optimistic and shared their good news with me. It was looking good at that time, but we still needed to see what the franchise had to say about these new results.

There's a clause on the FIBA/NBA agreement about the participation of NBA players in international competition that reads: "Players are not authorized to play or train with a national team when there are reasonable medical concerns about that participation putting the player in substantial risk of injury, disease or other damages."

That clause complicated things for me because it gave them legal power to forbid me to play the World Cup.

The answer wasn't what I was expecting. They said that given the images they had received, they couldn't conclude that the injury was cured completely and therefore there were still "reasonable concerns." So they were still forbidding me to play.

So far, that's a chronological account of what happened.

I thought I had only one card left to play, which was to ignore the Spurs' request and look for FIBA to sort of mediate, to determine if the concern was "reasonable" or not, which is a pretty subjective matter.

It was the logical next step. Even if it would cause some problems between the franchise and I down the line, it was the last resort. But here's when a more delicate situation, and definitely more important for me, came into play. To make sure the bone was healed, I had spent 42 days without training like I usually do, without running or jumping, so as to not put any stress on the fibula. And that caused me to go into training camp in pitiful shape. When you are 37 years old, it's not easy to start from scratch and catch up, so we started to ramp up the preparation once the test results were in.

I started physical therapy in the pool acceptably well but when I moved to the treadmill, that's when pain started to crop up, especially in my right ankle and left foot. I did a lot of physical therapy and stretching and it seemed like the pain was slowly subsiding. But when I started to push my body harder this Wednesday, running and shooting, at the end of the training session the pain in the area of the stress fracture in the fibula re-appeared. That basically crushed any expectation I had to come up with some sort of plan to play in Spain, since asking FIBA to mediate was pointless considering the original injury clearly wasn't fully healed.

I'm very sorry for the bad news. I'm sad and disappointed. I wanted to say goodbye to the national team on the court, with my friends but it's not to be. I'll be with the team for as long as I can, trying to contribute from the outside, supporting them through everything, like I'm sure you will both in the friendlies in Tecnópolis and Bahia Blanca and through the TV during the tournament.




http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/8/2/5962823/full-translation-of-manus-column

[Richie]

Thanks for the translation. I'm most surprised about his comments about this being his goodbye to the national team, I expected him to play one extra year and retire after the Olympics in Rio

[spursparker9]

Thanks for the translation. I'm most surprised about his comments about this being his goodbye to the national team, I expected him to play one extra year and retire after the Olympics in Rio

I did not do the translation.

All credit and source go to http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/8/2/5962823/full-translation-of-manus-column

:toast

[testies]

So basically Spurs doctors were right and his second and third opinion doctors in Argentina were wrong

[-21-]

I thought I had only one card left to play, which was to ignore the Spurs' request and look for FIBA to sort of mediate, to determine if the concern was "reasonable" or not, which is a pretty subjective matter.

It was the logical next step. Even if it would cause some problems between the franchise and I down the line, it was the last resort.

I sure hope this doesn't mean anything serious.

[littlecoyotecoin]

So basically Spurs doctors were right and his second and third opinion doctors in Argentina were wrong

Exactly. The ones he accused of unethical behavior in the media were right, and all of his sycophant Argentinian ones and the one he shopped for and found in Chicago were wrong. Imagine that. The ones that you wanted to give you a favorable opinion were all wrong. Shocking. And still using the "diagnosing isn't an exact science" as defense of poor behavior. He should have remembered that more clearly when making comments about the Spurs' doctors, instead of implying that they were intentionally lengthening recovery time to benefit their client.

[superbigtime]

Sucks for Manu, this situation. At least he is honest with what transpired (of course), so bottom line is it still hurts, it's not healed, he's not in playing shape right now. Kind of sucky that he felt that FIBA mediating on his behalf and ignoring the Spurs doctors was a 'card left to play.'

[Obstructed_View]

Sucks for Manu, but he needs to remember that there's only one entity in all this that cares about him, and it's about a lot more than money. There aren't many pro sports franchises that you can say have the player's best interests in mind. This one does.

[Brazil]

Thanks for posting

im quite puzzled by the lack of informal communication between Manu and FO. I can't imagine a situation where a problem could occur between Manu and Spurs because of this participation. This interview sounds like a way out for Manu in front of Argentinean national media. That's weird.

[Obstructed_View]

Thanks for posting

im quite puzzled by the lack of informal communication between Manu and FO. I can't imagine a situation where a problem could occur between Manu and Spurs because of this participation. This interview sounds like a way out for Manu in front of Argentinean national media. That's weird.

It probably sounds that way because it is. Manu can blame the Spurs, who are happy to take the heat from fans for him, and he doesn't have to participate in a meaningless exhibition that his team has no chance of doing well in.

[Brazil]

It probably sounds that way because it is. Manu can blame the Spurs, who are happy to take the heat from fans for him, and he doesn't have to participate in a meaningless exhibition that his team has no chance of doing well in.

If this is the case Manu could have said after a long season I just need to rest, I think Argentinean media would have understood. Parker is not playing this summer and he is much younger and nobody in France is questioning his patriotism.

[Obstructed_View]

If this is the case Manu could have said after a long season I just need to rest, I think Argentinean media would have understood. Parker is not playing this summer and he is much younger and nobody in France is questioning his patriotism.

Fair point. Maybe they would have understood. But I don't think they would, and if I were the team I'd volunteer to take the hit for Manu just so we wouldn't have to find out.

[tmtcsc]

The United States has the best medical care in the wold and its not even close. My brother-in-law suffered a punctured lung while on vacation in Venice, Italy and his treatment was downright nightmarish and medieval.

[Russ]

I started physical therapy in the pool acceptably well but when I moved to the treadmill, that's when pain started to crop up, especially in my right ankle and left foot. I did a lot of physical therapy and stretching and it seemed like the pain was slowly subsiding. But when I started to push my body harder this Wednesday, running and shooting, at the end of the training session the pain in the area of the stress fracture in the fibula re-appeared.

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/8/2/5962823/full-translation-of-manus-column

This is the only part that concerns me.

[Ice009]

This is the only part that concerns me.

Yep. That is pretty much the main thing that I am interested in. Is he going to be OK and is it going to heal properly by itself with more time off?

[BillMc]

This is the only part that concerns me.

How many injuries does he have? He mentions pain in both his right ankle and left foot!

[Ice009]

How many injuries does he have? He mentions pain in both his right ankle and left foot!

Which side in the stress fracture on?

[ducks]

Yep. That is pretty much the main thing that I am interested in. Is he going to be OK and is it going to heal properly by itself with more time off?

he was not to do anything for 2 months
it was suppose to heal for 2 months he started at day 42 not 60
now there is a setback but he should be ok

[2centsworth]

sounds like he's far from being ready for training camp

[ducks]

him missing first month is nothing if need be to get into shape

[Dverde]

He should of gotten some of that Ibaka juice. Dude is old and will never be on the early side of recovery times. This makes me think we will see little of healthy manu this season.

[Old School 44]

The Spurs, Manu and the NT should come to an agreement where Manu can be dressed and on the team and be sort of a player/coach without necessarily playing. As long as we can trust hyper competitive Manu not to do anything crazy.

[ThomasamohT]

The Spurs, Manu and the NT should come to an agreement where Manu can be dressed and on the team and be sort of a player/coach without necessarily playing. As long as we can trust hyper competitive Manu not to do anything crazy.

Luckily the Spurs are smarter than you because if Manu is suited, then he IS going to play.

Now I am a bit surprised that Manu doesn't offer to be a coach/mentor and cheer his team on from the sidelines.

[ElNono]

Was posted a day ago:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237925&p=7538204&viewfull=1#post7538204

[024]

Obviously the team doctors were right, I don't know why Manu likes to doubt them. Even the Argentinian doctor couldn't definitively clear Manu to play.

The problem now is that Manu is still suffering pain. Hopefully his injury will not require surgery. There were a couple NBA players that sat out for a month or two after a stress fracture only to discover later that they needed season ending surgeries.

[jeebus]

Was posted a day ago:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237925&p=7538204&viewfull=1#post7538204
ElNostradamusNostradamus with the hurt bombs.

[Dex]

Good.

I love Manu, but that's what he deserves for trying to press it. At least it appeared to him as mild discomfort on the treadmill and not a snapped fucking ankle like George's that just sank the Pacer's hopes for the season.

If Manu really felt like he was healthy and the Spurs restricted him from playing, he would have held a grudge. Now, he has to understand their decision 100%.

Now Ginobili needs to focus on is resting, getting that leg healthy, and let's get ready to go for that first repeat.

[BillMc]

Which side in the stress fracture on?
I don't know. His right ankle hurts and his left foot hurts according to the article so take your pick.

[Plum Island]

Good.

I love Manu, but that's what he deserves for trying to press it. At least it appeared to him as mild discomfort on the treadmill and not a snapped fucking ankle like George's that just sank the Pacer's hopes for the season.

If Manu really felt like he was healthy and the Spurs restricted him from playing, he would have held a grudge. Now, he has to understand their decision 100%.

Now Ginobili needs to focus on is resting, getting that leg healthy, and let's get ready to go for that first repeat.

This may be a slight blessing in that this tells him he needs to start getting in shape for the season earlier and probably slower so his body responds correctly.
Rather than diving in and going through the season with a hundred nagging injuries from going into the season rushing his body.

[Brazil]

The United States has the best medical care in the wold and its not even close. My brother-in-law suffered a punctured lung while vacation in Venice, Italy and his treatment was downright nightmarish and medieval.

:lol ignorant

[Skull-1]

He is gonna' continue to decline. I bet he doesn't make it the full season.

[xmas1997]

He is gonna' continue to decline. I bet he doesn't make it the full season.

So what!
A lot of players don't make it a whole season, and for that matter a hell of a lot of team centerpieces don't either, just look at Kobe.
Moot point.

[DPG21920]

I love how he openly called out the Spurs but says nothing about the doctors who pretty much seemed to lie to him and tell him he was healed.

[RD2191]

I love how he openly called out the Spurs but says nothing about the doctors who pretty much seemed to lie to him and tell him he was healed.

[hater]

I love how he openly called out the Spurs but says nothing about the doctors who pretty much seemed to lie to him and tell him he was healed.

:lmao

he's lost all credibility tbh

[ElNono]

I love how he openly called out the Spurs but says nothing about the doctors who pretty much seemed to lie to him and tell him he was healed.

None of the doctors told him he was healed.

[littlecoyotecoin]

None of the doctors told him he was healed.

He did say "pretty much". And I can agree they did say about as much. They said: you're good to go. What more do you want for "pretty much" than that?

When they told him the reduced timeframe, though, we can agree that he didn't say they were untrustworthy in the media, though, amirite?

[ElNono]

When they told him the reduced timeframe, though, we can agree that he didn't say they were untrustworthy in the media, though, amirite?

I don't think he said any doctor was 'untrustworthy', in the media or otherwise. Link?.

He did say he disagreed with the recovery timeline the Spurs doctor outlined for his injury.

[ElNono]

He did say "pretty much". And I can agree they did say about as much. They said: you're good to go. What more do you want for "pretty much" than that?

Link where they said "you're goo to go"? The NT team doctor (Grippo) said the results were inconclusive, that he was optimist they could do a special workout to get him ready for the Worlds... but he never said he was healed, AFAIK.

FWIW, Grippo also said he wasn't worried about Manu since he has already played with that injury before. Don't really know if he meant with the Spurs or the NT (or both)

[ElNono]

DPG21920 what are your thoughts on Sharknado 2?

[DPG21920]

Look, he said some very uncouth things about the Spurs or at the very least implied them. The fact he was using what the Argie doctors said to "fight" the Spurs decision means he felt the Spurs did something wrong. Then when he found out that he wasn't healed, he said "whoops! I guess I am injured". He didn't say, the Spurs were correct and it was the right decision. He had no hesitation throughout the entire process to cast doubt on SA, but never once did that on Argies.

[UZER]

Damn, he is one stubborn bastard. The blessing and curse of Manu.

It's why he can play as bad as he did in game 6 '13, and play as good as he did game 5 '14.

[DMC]

Thanks for posting

im quite puzzled by the lack of informal communication between Manu and FO. I can't imagine a situation where a problem could occur between Manu and Spurs because of this participation. This interview sounds like a way out for Manu in front of Argentinean national media. That's weird.

This was probably discussed with RC and Pop, maybe even Peter prior to speaking to that media source. They probably agreed that the Spurs would take the blame for Manu not participating... in agreement for him not participating.

[ElNono]

Look, he said some very uncouth things about the Spurs or at the very least implied them. The fact he was using what the Argie doctors said to "fight" the Spurs decision means he felt the Spurs did something wrong. Then when he found out that he wasn't healed, he said "whoops! I guess I am injured". He didn't say, the Spurs were correct and it was the right decision. He had no hesitation throughout the entire process to cast doubt on SA, but never once did that on Argies.

The mere moment that he received the news from the Spurs, he sought the advice of a third party doctor, not associated with the Spurs or the NT (barely mentioned in this article, but the specialist was in Chicago, and it's the one that told him to wait 30 days and do another study). The implication is obvious: He felt that both the Spurs doctors and the NT doctor had a horse in that race, and he wanted an opinion from somebody that did not. It was the right thing to do. That's why it makes no sense to pin some sort of 'distrust' only on the Spurs doctors when the same situation applied equally to the NT doctor.

Ultimately, no doctor told him he was healthy. Which is really what triggered the Spurs making the decision that they did (thankfully, I wanted him to rest regardless)

[ElNono]

This was probably discussed with RC and Pop, maybe even Peter prior to speaking to that media source. They probably agreed that the Spurs would take the blame for Manu not participating... in agreement for him not participating.

We are way more aware of the day-to-day between the Spurs and the personnel that your average ARG basketball fan, tbh. That's why I agree with you, I think there's a good share of lip service in there.

[DMC]

We are way more aware of the day-to-day between the Spurs and the personnel that your average ARG basketball fan, tbh. That's why I agree with you, I think there's a good share of lip service in there.

KL pulls out, Manu pulls out, Patty pulls out... KL can use the rest excuse, he's not the star player for this country, however the other two have a tougher row to hoe to get forgiveness from their countries.

Kobe pulled out too but unlike the Spurs players, Kobe rejoined in the showers.

[Brazil]

This was probably discussed with RC and Pop, maybe even Peter prior to speaking to that media source. They probably agreed that the Spurs would take the blame for Manu not participating... in agreement for him not participating.

Probably something like that but again I don't understand why Manu would need to save face. Dude is 38 y/o he had an amazing run with his nt, he could just say it's too much. That's a lot of unnecessary bs IMO.

[DPG21920]

It sounds like Manu wanted an answer and instead of going into it with an open mind, he did everything he could to cast doubt and get the answer he wanted to hear.

[ElNono]

Probably something like that but again I don't understand why Manu would need to save face. Dude is 38 y/o he had an amazing run with his nt, he could just say it's too much. That's a lot of unnecessary bs IMO.

That is a rational sentiment. Unfortunately, he's rich, famous and successful. Argentina is undergoing a period of fairly nationalistic bullshit, including your run-off-the-mill socialist envy for the rich, famous and successful. Wouldn't take too long for certain media to pen a story about him opting for the hard-to-come-by US Dollar over the National Team. A complete fabrication for anybody that knows what Manu gave to the NT, but that was a while ago, and people has short memory.

[ElNono]

It sounds like Manu wanted an answer and instead of going into it with an open mind, he did everything he could to cast doubt and get the answer he wanted to hear.

Nothing on Sharknado 2?

[littlecoyotecoin]

Link where they said "you're goo to go"? The NT team doctor (Grippo) said the results were inconclusive, that he was optimist they could do a special workout to get him ready for the Worlds... but he never said he was healed, AFAIK.

FWIW, Grippo also said he wasn't worried about Manu since he has already played with that injury before. Don't really know if he meant with the Spurs or the NT (or both)

And DPG never said they said he was healed. He said they "pretty much" lied to him and said he was healed, which is vague enough to cover what the Argentinians were saying...that they were thumbs up...of course they never gave him approval, because they didn't have the authority to do so, but everything you heard from them leads you to believe that he plays if it was up to them...no... They didn't use the words "good to go". But, I didn't hear a single thing from their side indicating that he would sit out, did you? They, including Manu, said so many positive, affirming things, it shouldn't be hard for you to find all of them...I know you followed every word, and are just playing "gotcha", so you be my research monkey, and find any quotes that indicate they believed he would NOT be healed in time to play and WOULD NOT play: difficulty - hard.

Now, regarding Manu throwing The Spurs team doctors under the bus, yes, I have two quotes from him.

"The doctor said I shouldn't play, but because he's the team's doctor I asked for a second opinion."

BECAUSE HE IS THE TEAM DOCTOR.

"The Spurs definitely did not want me to go because I was injured...That's what the doctor said, but he's the team doctor, so it's obvious which interest is more prevalent for him."

This is a direct insinuation that the doctor would make a diagnosis based upon financial interests rather than his medical opinion. That was a shitty thing to say. He could have said something far more neutral and diplomatic. He didn't.

And, there was a third quote about "without a horse in the race", again questioning the ethics of the doctors making the decisions...

He could have gotten these second and third opinions without insinuating the doctors were making diagnoses based upon things other than a difference in medical opinion. Medical opinions can vary without unethical financial motives being behind them. He should have left it at that.

[ElNono]

And DPG never said they said he was healed. He said they "pretty much" lied to him and said he was healed, which is vague enough to cover what the Argentinians were saying...that they were thumbs up...of course they never gave him approval, because they didn't have the authority to do so, but everything you heard from them leads you to believe that he plays if it was up to them...no... They didn't use the words "good to go".

...



So no doctor ever told him he was healed, and nobody told him "you're goo to go". That's what I thought.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Look, he said some very uncouth things about the Spurs or at the very least implied them. The fact he was using what the Argie doctors said to "fight" the Spurs decision means he felt the Spurs did something wrong. Then when he found out that he wasn't healed, he said "whoops! I guess I am injured". He didn't say, the Spurs were correct and it was the right decision. He had no hesitation throughout the entire process to cast doubt on SA, but never once did that on Argies.

Exactly.

[littlecoyotecoin]

So no doctor ever told him he was healed, and nobody told him "you're goo to go". That's what I thought.

And, then I guess you couldn't find anything where a doctor on their side ever even hinted that he might NOT be able to be ready to play...that's what I thought.

[ElNono]

He could have gotten these second and third opinions without insinuating the doctors were making diagnoses based upon things other than a difference in medical opinion. Medical opinions can vary without unethical financial motives being behind them. He should have left it at that.

I disagree he should've left it at that. Unfortunately, decisions like that raise alarms and there's always certain media ready to jump on them. Just like your average fan in here would be highly skeptical about what the ARG NT doctor would say.

This isn't Manu's first dance between the Spurs and the NT, he's fairly seasoned in this stuff, thus it's really no surprise he would look for a third party voice on the matter. Even if he trusts the Spurs doctor 100%, it only makes sense from a PR perspective.

[littlecoyotecoin]

So no doctor ever told him he was healed, and nobody told him "you're goo to go". That's what I thought.

BTW, which is a horrible defense of them. You're saying that they were not sure if he was healed, or sure he wasn't healed, but were going to go ahead and put a plan in action to play him anyway.

[ElNono]

And, then I guess you couldn't find anything where a doctor on their side ever even hinted that he might NOT be able to be ready to play...that's what I thought.

The NT doctor said he was optimist. That's a far cry from "ready to play"... But this illustrates exactly my previous point. You wouldn't trust a word the ARG NT doctor would say. Conversely, ARG fans wouldn't trust a word of the Spurs doctors.

That's exactly why getting the opinion of a third doctor not involved with either party was exactly the right thing to do.

[ElNono]

BTW, which is a horrible defense of them. You're saying that they were not sure if he was healed, or sure he wasn't healed, but were going to go ahead and put a plan in action to play him anyway.

According to the NT doctor, this isn't the first time Manu played with that injury. Now I couldn't tell you if that was with the NT or the Spurs or both, he didn't say. I think the idea was to try to put him on a training program with low-impact, and try to get him to continue healing while regaining some of his fitness. Obviously, he had that setback with the pain coming back, so that was no longer an option.

The NT doctor certainly has the NT interests front and center. He also said he wouldn't risk a player if they knew they couldn't play. They actually cut Delfino pretty much right away since they couldn't recover him in time.

But there's also always some gray area when it comes to recovery and diagnosis. It's not all black and white. That's why people do seek (and get) second opinions all the time.

[DMC]

Probably something like that but again I don't understand why Manu would need to save face. Dude is 38 y/o he had an amazing run with his nt, he could just say it's too much. That's a lot of unnecessary bs IMO.
Because he just won a championship in the USA. if he says he's too tired to play for his own country after they lost in the world cup, that could have some financial repercussions for him and for the Spurs as well.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I disagree he should've left it at that. Unfortunately, decisions like that raise alarms and there's always certain media ready to jump on them. Just like your average fan in here would be highly skeptical about what the ARG NT doctor would say.

This isn't Manu's first dance between the Spurs and the NT, he's fairly seasoned in this stuff, thus it's really no surprise he would look for a third party voice on the matter. Even if he trusts the Spurs doctor 100%, it only makes sense from a PR perspective.

Again with the "it's no surprise he would look for a third party..."

how many times can we cede that point? It is not a point of contention. It is a straw man. I don't, and many don't, begrudge him the right, almost a duty to seek multiple medical opinions.

He doesn't have to say it in the way that he did, and he didn't make the same insinuations about the Argentinian doctors when they came back with all of their optimism.

If he makes a statement like: "I will get several opinions to see if there is some sort of medical concensus, and I will move forward from there." He gets his opinions and doesn't sound like he is shitting on The Spurs doctors.

[littlecoyotecoin]

But there's also always some gray area when it comes to recovery and diagnosis. It's not all black and white. That's why people do seek (and get) second opinions all the time.

Frankenstein's Strawman, Bride of Strawman, The Return of Strawman, Strawman From the Black Lagoon...

I've seen this film before. When did I ever say he couldn't or shouldn't get second opinions? To quote NoNo: "I thought so."

And, I've already said that because medical opinions can differ, so obvious, that is even LESS of a reason for him to attribute it to anything OTHER than that, instead of attributing it to team affiliation.

[littlecoyotecoin]

According to the NT doctor, this isn't the first time Manu played with that injury. Now I couldn't tell you if that was with the NT or the Spurs or both, he didn't say. I think the idea was to try to put him on a training program with low-impact, and try to get him to continue healing while regaining some of his fitness. Obviously, he had that setback with the pain coming back, so that was no longer an option.

The NT doctor certainly has the NT interests front and center. He also said he wouldn't risk a player if they knew they couldn't play. They actually cut Delfino pretty much right away since they couldn't recover him in time.

But there's also always some gray area when it comes to recovery and diagnosis. It's not all black and white. That's why people do seek (and get) second opinions all the time.

Yeah, the tests were inconclusive, so we're going to start working you out anyway, as if they were conclusive.

[ElNono]

Again with the "it's no surprise he would look for a third party..."

how many times can we cede that point? It is not a point of contention. It is a straw man. I don't, and many don't, begrudge him the right, almost a duty to seek multiple medical opinions.

He doesn't have to say it in the way that he did, and he didn't make the same insinuations about the Argentinian doctors when they came back with all of their optimism.

If he makes a statement like: "I will get several opinions to see if there is some sort of medical concensus, and I will move forward from there." He gets his opinions and doesn't sound like he is shitting on The Spurs doctors.

Because looking for a third party doctor is integral to the point. It has as much to do with getting a second opinion as it has to do with removing any skepticism that he was more or less 'trustworthy' of either the Spurs or the NT doctor.

If he didn't feel the exact same way about the NT doctor as he does with the Spurs doctors, he wouldn't need a third party opinion.

As far as what he said, well, I didn't think it was bad at all. If anything, maybe he was being too honest... he didn't feel like the recovery time was right, and said so. Don't get what's the big deal. After all, it is simply an educated guess. Ultimately, the Spurs doctors were certainly spot on and vindicated.

[ElNono]

Frankenstein's Strawman, Bride of Strawman, The Return of Strawman, Strawman From the Black Lagoon...

I've seen this film before. When did I ever say he couldn't or shouldn't get second opinions? To quote NoNo: "I thought so."

And, I've already said that because medical opinions can differ, so obvious, that is even LESS of a reason for him to attribute it to anything OTHER than that, instead of attributing it to team affiliation.

I think you're missing the entire plausible deniability aspect of all this. That's why you think it's a strawman, when it's actually an integral part of it.

[ElNono]

Yeah, the tests were inconclusive, so we're going to start working you out anyway, as if they were conclusive.

Well, doctors do work with players with different types of nagging or not so nagging injuries all the time. You get recovery workout plans involving the pool, etc that are custom made to gain fitness without putting impact in certain areas. That's what doctors in professional sports do, including the Spurs doctors. Players don't just sit out watching TV in their couches when they get some sort of injury. Ultimately, Manu couldn't even practice with the team without the Spurs authorization, so that's moot.

[guilhermercf]

He had to try.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Because looking for a third party doctor is integral to the point. It has as much to do with getting a second opinion as it has to do with removing any skepticism that he was more or less 'trustworthy' of either the Spurs or the NT doctor.

If he didn't feel the exact same way about the NT doctor as he does with the Spurs doctors, he wouldn't need a third party opinion.

As far as what he said, well, I didn't think it was bad at all. If anything, maybe he was being too honest... he didn't feel like the recovery time was right, and said so. Don't get what's the big deal. After all, it is simply an educated guess. Ultimately, the Spurs doctors were certainly spot on and vindicated.

Is this yet ANOTHER post where you tell me getting a third party opinion is a good idea? This is getting downright comical. It's like you're talking to another person, but I know we're the only two in the room. I could have sworn I even said it was almost his DUTY.

And, of course you didn't think it was bad at all, what he said. I don't know that he's ever done wrong in your eyes. However, how do you describe the ire he stirred in so many with his comments and the way he made them, ire in even those that honor him as a local hero, like myself? The answer is because he could have been diplomatic, but was not. Something he has navigated very well his entire career. He's never irked me in the past. This time he did, even if only a little. What has been more irksome is the denials that he behaved out of character.

[UnWantedTheory]

Is this yet ANOTHER post where you tell me getting a third party opinion is a good idea? This is getting downright comical. It's like you're talking to another person, but I know we're the only two in the room. I could have sworn I even said it was almost his DUTY.

And, of course you didn't think it was bad at all, what he said. I don't know that he's ever done wrong in your eyes. However, how do you describe the ire he stirred in so many with his comments and the way he made them, ire in even those that honor him as a local hero, like myself? The answer is because he could have been diplomatic, but was not. Something he has navigated very well his entire career. He's never irked me in the past. This time he did, even if only a little. What has been more irksome is the denials that he behaved out of character.
The fact he sought a 3rd opinion casts doubt on the NT as well...How is that not clear? I understand he didn't make it as blatant but he still obviously had trust issues on both sides. It makes sense to me that he would "throw the Spurs" under the bus more so and not the NT as he wasn't going to play. Tbqh, I for one could give two fucks and a shit what he was quoted as saying. It wasn't that bad to me either & I am not a Manu homer. He just voiced what most would & did think. I don't fault a man for honesty.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I think you're missing the entire plausible deniability aspect of all this. That's why you think it's a strawman, when it's actually an integral part of it.

Um, no, the strawman is you keep saying he needed to get a third party opinion, and I have always said that's always a good idea, and then you say that I don't realize that he needs to get a third party opinion, and I say that's a good idea, and then you say that what I don't understand is that the third party opinion is important...and that I should understand that...and I say I do...and I agree...repeat ad nauseum...

When the whole argument is not that he got the opinion, it's how he went about it and what he said while doing it.

Regarding plausible deniability, I was early on hoping that is what it was all about, but we don't know. I do know he made those unfortunate comments, though. If you tell me they were theatre, scripted by CIA Pop, I'm fine with Manu making them, otherwise, they were still undiplomatic.

[littlecoyotecoin]

The fact he sought a 3rd opinion casts doubt on the NT as well...How is that not clear? I understand he didn't make it as blatant but he still obviously had trust issues on both sides. It makes sense to me that he would "throw the Spurs" under the bus more so and not the NT as he wasn't going to play. Tbqh, I for one could give two fucks and a shit what he was quoted as saying. It wasn't that bad to me either & I am not a Manu homer. He just voiced what most would & did think. I don't fault a man for honesty.

No, it doesn't cast the same doubt on the NT because he already dismissed The Spurs diagnosis as biased. He already precluded himself from running to the NT doctor and accepting their diagnosis. He had no other logical choice but to get a third party diagnosis because if nothing else The Spurs would have protested had he attempted to use the Argentine doctor. Good to hear you acknowledge that he was more harsh toward The Spurs, though, which is all I have ever been saying. And, I am glad you don't give two fucks about any of this, either. We need to save as many fucks as possible, for when our fucks are truly needed to be given. If saving two fucks here can benefit a person, I am a proponent of saving them. I just happen to have an abundance of fucks. I can give a fuck at a whim, or not give a fuck if I choose. I'm at a wonderful point in life.

[ElNono]

Is this yet ANOTHER post where you tell me getting a third party opinion is a good idea? This is getting downright comical. It's like you're talking to another person, but I know we're the only two in the room. I could have sworn I even said it was almost his DUTY.

It's been pretty clear you're not getting it, that's why I keep trying. Do you understand what happens if he goes to Argentina after the Spurs told him not to play and he just says "The Spurs told me I'm hurt and I can't play"? And then the NT doctor comes out and says "I think we can recover him in time"?

All that has nothing to do with getting a second opinion. It has everything to do putting himself in a pretty uncomfortable position.


And, of course you didn't think it was bad at all, what he said. I don't know that he's ever done wrong in your eyes. However, how do you describe the ire he stirred in so many with his comments and the way he made them, ire in even those that honor him as a local hero, like myself? The answer is because he could have been diplomatic, but was not. Something he has navigated very well his entire career. He's never irked me in the past. This time he did, even if only a little. What has been more irksome is the denials that he behaved out of character.

Well, he's done wrong here since I didn't want him to play, even before the injury was announced, but that's beside the point. He's ultimately free to think or do whatever he wants, within certain parameters, regardless of how you or I feel about it.
I just think he's been a professional that has played for over a decade at the highest level, so I suspect he might know what he's talking about. I also know he's put his health on the Spurs doctors hands for all that time, so it would be disingenuous to think there's a lack of trust or respect at any level with said doctors. On the other hand, it's plausible that he felt the recovery could've been done quicker (as he stated on his article), and so he tried. Some people will say 'he had to try' as a PR move, some people will say he really had to try because he cares, but that we'll never know.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

lol this after the fact meaningless arguing is entertaining

[ElNono]

No, it doesn't cast the same doubt on the NT because he already dismissed The Spurs diagnosis as biased. He already precluded himself from running to the NT doctor and accepting their diagnosis. He had no other logical choice but to get a third party diagnosis because if nothing else The Spurs would have protested had he attempted to use the Argentine doctor.

Uh? He made his comments after getting the third party opinion... how's that "already dismissed"?

Of course it casts the same doubt. There's no reason why he couldn't go directly to the NT doctor if he wanted to, and whether the Spurs protest or not is immaterial. He had to present the tests at a later date regardless, and the Spurs had to approve.
But the fact that you're very willingly to cast the ARG NT doctor as some sort of crook, but not necessarily the third party doctor, is exactly why he did that. It's the PR part, not the second opinion part.

If the third party doctor tells him he won't recover in time? Well, then he has a clean out with the Argentina media and everyone else.

[ElNono]

No, it doesn't cast the same doubt on the NT because he already dismissed The Spurs diagnosis as biased. He already precluded himself from running to the NT doctor and accepting their diagnosis. He had no other logical choice but to get a third party diagnosis because if nothing else The Spurs would have protested had he attempted to use the Argentine doctor. Good to hear you acknowledge that he was more harsh toward The Spurs, though, which is all I have ever been saying. And, I am glad you don't give two fucks about any of this, either. We need to save as many fucks as possible, for when our fucks are truly needed to be given. If saving two fucks here can benefit a person, I am a proponent of saving them. I just happen to have an abundance of fucks. I can give a fuck at a whim, or not give a fuck if I choose. I'm at a wonderful point in life.

I'm giving a fuck about this post, tbh...

[gilmor]

Who gives a fuck? Manu is going to be healthy next year when it all matters..

[ElNono]

Me and littlecoyotecoin go way back... we're just killing time until we can cheer for Diaw and Thiago at the Worlds... don't mind us.

[tmtcsc]

:lol ignorant

Ok, so apparently we're ranked 10th. But it's still better than Brazil, Italy and Argentina.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Me and littlecoyotecoin (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=45419) go way back... we're just killing time until we can cheer for Diaw and Thiago at the Worlds... don't mind us.

"Pretty Much" :toast

[romain.star]

The United States has the best medical care in the wold and its not even close. My brother-in-law suffered a punctured lung while vacation in Venice, Italy and his treatment was downright nightmarish and medieval.

I'm sorry for your brother-in-law but please be aware that we, europeans, have access to running water for only 2 years now

[littlecoyotecoin]

Uh? He made his comments after getting the third party opinion... how's that "already dismissed"?

Of course it casts the same doubt. There's no reason why he couldn't go directly to the NT doctor if he wanted to, and whether the Spurs protest or not is immaterial. He had to present the tests at a later date regardless, and the Spurs had to approve.
But the fact that you're very willingly to cast the ARG NT doctor as some sort of crook, but not necessarily the third party doctor, is exactly why he did that. It's the PR part, not the second opinion part.

If the third party doctor tells him he won't recover in time? Well, then he has a clean out with the Argentina media and everyone else.

He made comments before getting the third party opinion, and I have also cast the Chicago doctor as a crook. You can shop for an opinion you want in a situation like this. It was no coincidence that the random doctor he picked and the NT doctors all agreed on a timeframe that was desirable to him, and also happened to all be wrong. Since the timeframe for recovery here has leeway, he would be lucky that the diagnosis didn't come back the same, longer than The Spurs diagnosis, or shorter than The Spurs diagnosis, but still longer than it did come back or desired. Instead, it came in right in line with what was acceptable to him. How convenient for a random variable to land right where you need it to. This is analogous to you needing a potato at the market that is 4 ounces from a group that ranges 2-10 ounces, and you walking up and randomly picking a potato, and lo and behold, on your blindfolded first attempt, you are so fortunate as to pick a four ounce potato.

Add to this the increasingly unlikelihood that a group of medical doctors would look at the data and all be WRONG about the diagnosis, unless there were some bias involved, and you've got more probability issues.

for the NT doctors and the Chicago doctors to be so wrong about the timeframe for recovery, yet both arrive at similar conclusions, I have to believe one of two things:

1) Extremely unlikely random chance

2) Bias, including bias in the selection of the Chicago doctor. Using a random number generator, blinds, a phone book with osteopaths numbers in it, and a larger sample, I am pretty sure Manu doesn't get a diagnosis for recovery that quick.

Chance happens, but to root for it is unrealistic, so I go with #2, the Chicago doctor was pre-screened to know what he would likely say before he was officially sourced as the official, neutral, third party opinion. Essentially, they weighed the potato before they picked it.

[Brazil]

Ok, so apparently we're ranked 10th. But it's still better than Brazil, Italy and Argentina.

the fact than in average it is still better than Italy, Brazil or Argentina does not mean these countries don't have top class specialists. We are not talking about a random dude from the favelas consulting a third world country medic

[xmas1997]

I heard it was a witch doctor tbqh.

[RD2191]

I heard it was a witch doctor tbqh.
:lol

[superbigtime]

It's just weird and seems unbecoming of Manu for him to doubt the Spurs doctors, that they had an agenda with his health care. Kind of shitty.

[tmtcsc]

I'm sorry for your brother-in-law but please be aware that we, europeans, have access to running water for only 2 years now

:lol I love Europe! I just got back from vacationing in the Bavaria region. I just wouldn't want to get sick over there.

[romain.star]

:lol I love Europe! I just got back from vacationing in the Bavaria region. I just wouldn't want to get sick over there.

Well on a serious note, being a random French guy living in Berlin (Germany), i'd much rather be sick in one of those 2 countries than in the US

[FireMicoHalili]

(insert rants about Manu being selfish and the Spurs being too business-minded with snarky remarks that make me better than the rest of ST)

[Skull-1]

I love how he openly called out the Spurs but says nothing about the doctors who pretty much seemed to lie to him and tell him he was healed.


:lol

Excellent point!

[Skull-1]

Who gives a fuck? Manu is going to be healthy next year when it all matters..


Dude can barely walk right now. I wonder if he will be healed at all....

His attitude in that article really sucks. Salty toward the Spurs. He appears to have checked out. Time to bank one more year of money then bail.

[tmtcsc]

Well on a serious note, being a random French guy living in Berlin (Germany), i'd much rather be sick in one of those 2 countries than in the US

Why?

[GSH]

There have been a lot of changes in the understanding and treatment of stress fractures, just in the last decade. A lot of "good" doctors cling to the old ways, even after it should be obvious that there are better treatments. Stress fractures take a long damn time to fully heal, and longer as we age. The accepted treatment these days is a period of inactivity, followed by a slow rehab process. One big contributor to stress fractures is when the muscles can't handle the full load, and more of the impact is transferred to the bone. And since the muscles deteriorate during the initial period of inactivity, it's important to strengthen the muscles ahead of any increase in impact training (weeks, not days).

Manu has had this same problem in his right leg, over and over. And since he's never taken a summer off (that I can remember) it's possible, maybe even likely, that it has never fully healed. The really bad thing is that if a stress fracture doesn't completely heal, it makes it easy to re-injure. And after a while, it can reach a point where it will never heal properly. After 6 weeks, he could have started strengthening exercises. But "ramping up" his training regimen, to try and make up for the period of inactivity is just fucking stupid. No if's, and's, or but's - just fucking stupid.

The Spurs had a legitimate, contractual right to tell him not to play or train with the NT this summer. He ignored them and started an accelerated training regimen that no up-to-date doctor would have approved. If he's not 100% by the beginning of training camp, I'm pretty sure the team could terminate his contract. I don't think there is any chance the Spurs would ever do that. But by running off and ignoring their instructions, he pretty much has to hit training camp running, just to prove that he didn't re-injure his leg. I love Manu and what he's done for the Spurs over the years, but this was selfish. He needs to come back and get on a supervised rehab program, and work things out with the FO to stay on light duty at least through the end of camp, and (even more) limited minutes until after the AS break. A healthy Manu really improves the Spurs' chance of a repeat. He's been through enough training camps with the Spurs, and they will be fine without him in November and December.

I don't believe that this is an elaborate story to try and make everyone happy about him not playing with the NT. If he really went there and started training, it says he was really planning on playing this summer. With his injury, and his age/history, I don't think there is any legitimate sports osteopath who would say that was something he should do. I don't know who the doctor in Chicago was, but he should start thinking about retiring, too.

[FireMicoHalili]

lol this after the fact meaningless arguing is entertaining
lol true :lmao
"Congratulations! You win...something"

[ElNono]

He made comments before getting the third party opinion, and I have also cast the Chicago doctor as a crook.

...

Chance happens, but to root for it is unrealistic, so I go with #2, the Chicago doctor was pre-screened to know what he would likely say before he was officially sourced as the official, neutral, third party opinion. Essentially, they weighed the potato before they picked it.

He made the comments to a Bahia Blanca, Argentina radio station when he was already in Argentina... He saw the Chicago doctor before getting to Argentina. So, no, he didn't make the comment before getting the third party opinion.

And everybody but the Spurs' doctors isn't a crook :lol. The third party doctor didn't tell him he would be healed by then, he told him to have another study done in 30 days (possibly thinking he might've recovered by then).


I don't believe that this is an elaborate story to try and make everyone happy about him not playing with the NT. If he really went there and started training, it says he was really planning on playing this summer. With his injury, and his age/history, I don't think there is any legitimate sports osteopath who would say that was something he should do. I don't know who the doctor in Chicago was, but he should start thinking about retiring, too.

AFAIK, the Chicago doctor didn't tell him to start training, he told him to check back on the injury in 30 days. He didn't tell him he would be healed by then or anything like that. Retirement avoided.

Manu certainly wanted to play, and it shouldn't be surprising he pushed the issue after noticing some improvement on the injury. You can definitely pin that on him.

[ElNono]

Ultimately, what apparently is the major issue here is that he spoke his mind on how he felt about the recovery time the Spurs doctors gave him... I personally rather have a guy that speaks his mind freely instead of getting the PR-approved, pre-recorded message, tbh... but that's certainly a matter of personal preference...

[GSH]

AFAIK, the Chicago doctor didn't tell him to start training, he told him to check back on the injury in 30 days. He didn't tell him he would be healed by then or anything like that. Retirement avoided.

Manu certainly wanted to play, and it shouldn't be surprising he pushed the issue after noticing some improvement on the injury. You can definitely pin that on him.


You're one of the few people still here that I would bother to try and have a discussion with, so here goes:

I assumed that the specialist Manu mentioned was the one from Chicago. I have to admit, I don't know that for sure. But whoever it was, Manu said that doctor told him this: "the 40 days between the last game against the Heat and the first day of the national team's training camp were more than enough for it to heal completely". Whoever the doctor was, he should have his ass kicked, if he really said that. It's totally irresponsible, particularly in light of Manu's age and history of overuse injury in that same area of his right leg. There is no way that 40 days could have ever been enough for his stress fracture to "heal completely". It was enough for him to begin rehab, that's all.

Manu is a warrior, and I respect the hell out of that quality. But there is enough good, solid medical evidence available that he should know that stress fractures don't fully heal that quickly. And sometimes the better part of valor is to let yourself get back to 100%, so that you don't wind up hurting the team more than you help.

I've gotten burned out on the league, in general. But Manu has been something special to watch, and I feel privileged to have seen thing things he has done on the court. I would love to see him go out on a high note. If he doesn't let this thing fully heal, he's just going to disappear to the injured list, and never come back. That would be a shame. To be honest, I still think he could have more gas left in the tank, if he ever let this thing get all the way healed. But I'm a little concerned that he's already reached the point that it might not heal all the way. He might be able to overcome his age on the floor (when healthy), but he can't escape the fact that the human body doesn't regenerate as quickly when we get older.

I'll say it again. He needs to come back, and tell management, "Look, I fucked up... what can we do about it?" And then he needs to take the advice of the experts, and stop trying to be Superman.

[littlecoyotecoin]

He made the comments to a Bahia Blanca, Argentina radio station when he was already in Argentina... He saw the Chicago doctor before getting to Argentina. So, no, he didn't make the comment before getting the third party opinion.

And everybody but the Spurs' doctors isn't a crook :lol. The third party doctor didn't tell him he would be healed by then, he told him to have another study done in 30 days (possibly thinking he might've recovered by then).



AFAIK, the Chicago doctor didn't tell him to start training, he told him to check back on the injury in 30 days. He didn't tell him he would be healed by then or anything like that. Retirement avoided.

Manu certainly wanted to play, and it shouldn't be surprising he pushed the issue after noticing some improvement on the injury. You can definitely pin that on him.

He made the worst of the comments when he got to Argentina, but he was not quiet immediately after The Spurs diagnosis, he may have even made a self-diagnosis, controverting theirs, almost immediately. And, no, not every doctor is a crook, that is why they had to pre-screen one so that he would be sure to give them something to work with.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Ultimately, what apparently is the major issue here is that he spoke his mind on how he felt about the recovery time the Spurs doctors gave him... I personally rather have a guy that speaks his mind freely instead of getting the PR-approved, pre-recorded message, tbh... but that's certainly a matter of personal preference...

We can agree on that, to an extent. But, when you give people enough rope, sometimes they hang themselves.

[ElNono]

You're one of the few people still here that I would bother to try and have a discussion with, so here goes:

I assumed that the specialist Manu mentioned was the one from Chicago. I have to admit, I don't know that for sure. But whoever it was, Manu said that doctor told him this: "the 40 days between the last game against the Heat and the first day of the national team's training camp were more than enough for it to heal completely". Whoever the doctor was, he should have his ass kicked, if he really said that. It's totally irresponsible, particularly in light of Manu's age and history of overuse injury in that same area of his right leg. There is no way that 40 days could have ever been enough for his stress fracture to "heal completely". It was enough for him to begin rehab, that's all.

I'm under the same assumption. I just don't think there was anything malicious about it. The original recovery time the Spurs gave him was 8 weeks. This guy told him to rest and maybe it'll be healed in 4 weeks. Again, I don't think this guy told him to practice or 'cleared' him up for anything. According to Gino, he actually started to do fitness after they send the studies to San Antonio.

IMO, it's not really complicated: he's a competitor and he wanted to be there. He was going to push the issue, and that's definitely on him. I also have no reason to doubt what he says about certain doctors pulling a certain way. It's also true that Manu is extremely important in that ARG team, so they would wait longer for him to heal, but they won't play him if he's hurt.

[ElNono]

We can agree on that, to an extent. But, when you give people enough rope, sometimes they hang themselves.

I don't disagree. But he was in Argentina after all. I doubt you'll hear a comment like that in the US...

[littlecoyotecoin]

I don't disagree. But he was in Argentina after all. I doubt you'll hear a comment like that in the US...

Because places are so isolated from one another in this day and age.

[ElNono]

Because places are so isolated from one another in this day and age.

I expect him to be much more candid not only in his country, but his hometown... America does have a good amount of PC talk that's not really common in other places...

[littlecoyotecoin]

I guess that's why when he's in the U.S. He doesn't throw The NT under the bus, but when he is in Argentina, that convenient cultural difference can be utilized.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I expect him to be much more candid not only in his country, but his hometown... America does have a good amount of PC talk that's not really common in other places...

And, we might want to 'splain how the internets work to him...

[ElNono]

I guess that's why when he's in the U.S. He doesn't throw The NT under the bus, but when he is in Argentina, that convenient cultural difference can be utilized.

I don't think he threw anybody under the bus. He really feels that way. You don't have to like it or agree with it.


And, we might want to 'splain how the internets work to him...

I really don't. Most everybody speak differently based on context.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I don't think he threw anybody under the bus. He really feels that way. You don't have to like it or agree with it.



I really don't. Most everybody speak differently based on context.

C'mon. Of course you don't feel that way. A lot of us do feel that way. You don't have to like it or agree with it ;)

[RD2191]

Manu handled the situation poorly, imo, He basically discredited the Spurs organization as a whole.

[DieMrBond]

The United States has the best medical care in the wold and its not even close. My brother-in-law suffered a punctured lung while on vacation in Venice, Italy and his treatment was downright nightmarish and medieval.

Hate to break it to you dude, but ... that's not technically true as a generalisation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/


Ok, so apparently we're ranked 10th. But it's still better than Brazil, Italy and Argentina.

Well, http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/ says you were part right - Italy actually has the 2nd best health care system in the world, while the USA has the 37th (Better than Argentina and Brazil, yes):

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems
1 France
2 Italy
30 Canada
32 Australia
37 USA
75 Argentina
125 Brazil

[ElNono]

C'mon. Of course you don't feel that way. A lot of us do feel that way. You don't have to like it or agree with it ;)

I'll like it and agree with it just for you. Just don't go around pulling a robdiaz after the fact, all I ask...

[RD2191]

You can toss all that shit out the window. IF you have money you will receive the best healthcare in the world in the USA period.

[RD2191]

I'll like it and agree with it just for you. Just don't go around pulling a robdiaz after the fact, all I ask...
Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining outside.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I'll like it and agree with it just for you. Just don't go around pulling a robdiaz after the fact, all I ask...

Heh heh. I don't know what "Pulling a Rob Diaz" is, but it sounds like it could definitely be a thing!

[littlecoyotecoin]

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining outside.

Manu will find you a doctor that will testify that it is rain. :)

[ElNono]

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining outside.

sorry, didn't mean to pee on your leg...

Listen, are you getting on the Patty wagon or you gonna keep going with that Vato loco Joseph schtick? And please, don't steal my stuff... "Corey is heating up" just doesn't have the same ring to it... :lol

[RD2191]

sorry, didn't mean to pee on your leg...

Listen, are you getting on the Patty wagon or you gonna keep going with that Vato loco Joseph schtick? And please, don't steal my stuff... "Corey is heating up" just doesn't have the same ring to it... :lol
http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4820474/cojo_dunk1.gif

[RD2191]

That is my response to your question. :wakeup

[ElNono]

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4820474/cojo_dunk1.gif

That play was all Ayres, tbh...

[RD2191]

That play was all Ayres, tbh...
:lol

[xmas1997]

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining outside.

:lmao

[GSH]

I'm under the same assumption. I just don't think there was anything malicious about it. The original recovery time the Spurs gave him was 8 weeks. This guy told him to rest and maybe it'll be healed in 4 weeks. Again, I don't think this guy told him to practice or 'cleared' him up for anything. According to Gino, he actually started to do fitness after they send the studies to San Antonio.

IMO, it's not really complicated: he's a competitor and he wanted to be there. He was going to push the issue, and that's definitely on him. I also have no reason to doubt what he says about certain doctors pulling a certain way. It's also true that Manu is extremely important in that ARG team, so they would wait longer for him to heal, but they won't play him if he's hurt.


Yeah, I wasn't one suggesting that there was anything malicious. (I know it's easy to lose track of who said what here.) What I did say was it was irresponsible of a doctor to tell him that his stress fracture would be "fully healed" in 40 days time. And that was a quote from Manu, unless you think he made it up. (I don't.)

I agree - he really wanted to play one last time, and I understand that. He went looking for a doctor that would tell him what he wanted to hear. The shame is, he found one. I don't think the Argentinian NT would play him, knowing he was hurt. But if they had a note from a "respected" doctor, saying that 40 days was enough time for the injury to be fully healed? Maybe.

But it looks like none of that matters now, since he won't be playing. What does matter is that it is mid-summer, and he has re-aggravated an overuse injury. And if he keeps pushing, instead of following a legitimate rehab plan, he's not going to be right this next season. Maybe never. He needs to quit looking for someone to tell him what he wants to hear, and start taking the advice that I'm sure he's getting.

Look, I've bitched for years about Manu playing every summer. Not because I think the Spurs should be his only priority, but because he has an injury that requires a very specific recovery regimen that includes some complete rest. And he's either been getting some bad medical advice, or he's been ignoring some good medical advice. But this year he has a current overuse injury AND he's that many years older. And now he's behind schedule for rest/rehab. He's either going to have to bite the bullet and do it right, or spend the entire season hurting and less than 100%. This is one condition you just can't help by working harder.

[ElNono]

Yeah, I wasn't one suggesting that there was anything malicious. (I know it's easy to lose track of who said what here.) What I did say was it was irresponsible of a doctor to tell him that his stress fracture would be "fully healed" in 40 days time. And that was a quote from Manu, unless you think he made it up. (I don't.)

The only thing I'll say about this is that according to reports, the stress fracture was very small. I'm not a doctor, and I don't pretend to be one (most of the time anyways), but, you know, there was that.


But it looks like none of that matters now, since he won't be playing. What does matter is that it is mid-summer, and he has re-aggravated an overuse injury. And if he keeps pushing, instead of following a legitimate rehab plan, he's not going to be right this next season. Maybe never. He needs to quit looking for someone to tell him what he wants to hear, and start taking the advice that I'm sure he's getting.

Look, I've bitched for years about Manu playing every summer. Not because I think the Spurs should be his only priority, but because he has an injury that requires a very specific recovery regimen that includes some complete rest. And he's either been getting some bad medical advice, or he's been ignoring some good medical advice. But this year he has a current overuse injury AND he's that many years older. And now he's behind schedule for rest/rehab. He's either going to have to bite the bullet and do it right, or spend the entire season hurting and less than 100%. This is one condition you just can't help by working harder.

I'm pretty sure he's going to rest now. Last summer, the Spurs sent a physical trainer with him to Argentina, and judging by the good season he had, it worked well.
Obviously, this summer I don't expect he'll be doing much of anything until he returns for training camp.

As I said from the get go, I was hoping he wouldn't even think about playing. But, you know, what we want and what players want is sometimes very different.

[spurs10]

Interesting stuff here. Thanks for your perspective GSH. The idea of him "ramping up" up his rehab progress and further aggravating an injury is a mighty scary thought. I believe with the rest he'll now have he is likely to fully recover, and possibly see through the process that it takes time. His competitive nature is something we are all aware of. Hopefully the doctors can get him 100% and start his training gradually.

[tmtcsc]

Hate to break it to you dude, but ... that's not technically true as a generalisation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/



Well, http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/ says you were part right - Italy actually has the 2nd best health care system in the world, while the USA has the 37th (Better than Argentina and Brazil, yes):

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems
1 France
2 Italy
30 Canada
32 Australia
37 USA
75 Argentina
125 Brazil

I was going off these rankings: http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/

1. United Kingdom
2. Switzerland
3. Sweden
4. Australia
5. Germany & Netherlands (tied)
7. New Zealand & Norway (tied)
9. France
10. Canada
11. United States

[Skull-1]

Well on a serious note, being a random French guy living in Berlin (Germany), i'd much rather be sick in one of those 2 countries than in the US


You will live longer and have a higher rate of cure/survival in the US. Idiot.

[Skull-1]

Why?


Because he is a friggin' drone.

[Skull-1]

Hate to break it to you dude, but ... that's not technically true as a generalisation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/



Well, http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/ says you were part right - Italy actually has the 2nd best health care system in the world, while the USA has the 37th (Better than Argentina and Brazil, yes):

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems
1 France
2 Italy
30 Canada
32 Australia
37 USA
75 Argentina
125 Brazil


All bullshot.


We rank lower because we can handle things no other nation does.

We lose more premature babies in the USA because we keep them alive at an age too young for ANY OTHER NATION to even attempt. We lose more because we try to save more....and we succeed. So we save a third of preemies when the rest of the world can't even save one.

That's why Canadians come here for healthcare. That's why I flew the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia here for treatment. Because America is the BEST at it. We would be even better if our government would get its fat face put of it!

Anyone who who denies this is a retarded fuqn drone.

[Skull-1]

Heh heh. I don't know what "Pulling a Rob Diaz" is, but it sounds like it could definitely be a thing!


Pulling a Rob Diaz is having the balls to shat all over the crowd. They were always wrong when they confronted Christ, so there is precedent. Rob is right far more than he is wrong.

[Skull-1]

The only thing I'll say about this is that according to reports, the stress fracture was very small. I'm not a doctor, and I don't pretend to be one (most of the time anyways), but, you know, there was that.






So small the the tosb can't even jog. Lmfao. Wtg argentine-duh witch doctors.

Score red one for US doctors.

[RD2191]

Pulling a Rob Diaz is having the balls to shat all over the crowd. They were always wrong when they confronted Christ, so there is precedent. Rob is right far more than he is wrong.
:toast

[ElNono]

I thought rob's cliff jumping was underrated... nobody, and I mean, NOBODY, cliff jumps like him...

[Skull-1]

:toast

:toast

[RD2191]

I thought rob's cliff jumping was underrated... nobody, and I mean, NOBODY, cliff jumps like him...
I'm not saying a 1st round exit is coming up, but...

[ElNono]

I'm not saying a 1st round exit is coming up, but...

Get some rest... we're going to need that energy when we play our first preseason game...

[RD2191]

Get some rest... we're going to need that energy when we play our first preseason game...
:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Dissapointed in Manu. Turns out the Spurs were absolutely right in their analysis and he makes them out to seem wrong. Whatever, just glad he's not playing.

[MannyIsGod]

Ultimately, what apparently is the major issue here is that he spoke his mind on how he felt about the recovery time the Spurs doctors gave him... I personally rather have a guy that speaks his mind freely instead of getting the PR-approved, pre-recorded message, tbh... but that's certainly a matter of personal preference...

No, the issue is that Manu made a stupid decision that disregarded a good decision the Spurs made.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm under the same assumption. I just don't think there was anything malicious about it. The original recovery time the Spurs gave him was 8 weeks. This guy told him to rest and maybe it'll be healed in 4 weeks. Again, I don't think this guy told him to practice or 'cleared' him up for anything. According to Gino, he actually started to do fitness after they send the studies to San Antonio.

IMO, it's not really complicated: he's a competitor and he wanted to be there. He was going to push the issue, and that's definitely on him. I also have no reason to doubt what he says about certain doctors pulling a certain way. It's also true that Manu is extremely important in that ARG team, so they would wait longer for him to heal, but they won't play him if he's hurt.

I don't think many people if any would say it was malicious. But it was very clearly irresponsible and annoying one year after he got that contract. I'm all for players being able to represent their national team (unlike many people here) but Manu's done that a lot and this was a time for him to think about the Spurs and not about his national team. I think he owed them this one.

[ElNono]

No, the issue is that Manu made a stupid decision that disregarded a good decision the Spurs made.

He expressed he didn't necessarily agree with the Spurs recovery timetable. He's free not to. If you don't agree with something, I don't think that makes you stupid.


I don't think many people if any would say it was malicious. But it was very clearly irresponsible and annoying one year after he got that contract. I'm all for players being able to represent their national team (unlike many people here) but Manu's done that a lot and this was a time for him to think about the Spurs and not about his national team. I think he owed them this one.

I didn't want him to play either, because I don't particularly think he has anything else to prove there. His contract is immaterial. The Spurs knew Manu plays for his NT whenever he can when they offered him that deal, and he more than earned his keep at least for the first season.

[Skull-1]

Dissapointed in Manu. Turns out the Spurs were absolutely right in their analysis and he makes them out to seem wrong. Whatever, just glad he's not playing.

[Skull-1]

No, the issue is that Manu made a stupid decision that disregarded a good decision the Spurs made.


Two truth nukes in a row. Who are you, America 1945?

[RD2191]

Two truth nukes in a row. Who are you, America 1945?
:lol

[romain.star]

You out will live longer and have a higher rate of cure/survival in the US. Idiot.

Do you also insult people with no valid argument in real life? Or is it just something you enjoy doing behind a screen?

[xmas1997]

People making mountains out of molehills IMHO.
Boring time of the year.

[littlecoyotecoin]

He expressed he didn't necessarily agree with the Spurs recovery timetable. He's free not to. If you don't agree with something, I don't think that makes you stupid.



I didn't want him to play either, because I don't particularly think he has anything else to prove there. His contract is immaterial. The Spurs knew Manu plays for his NT whenever he can when they offered him that deal, and he more than earned his keep at least for the first season.

It depends on what you're disagreeing with. If you disagree that water is wet, you're probably being stupid. And everyone here except a few with some emotional bias saw the wet water.

And, regarding that contract, quite a few people disagree with that opinion. Manu gets to have that opinion himself at the cost of some bad PR, where even people who have adored him think he acted a little douchy.

[EVAY]

People making mountains out of molehills IMHO.
Boring time of the year.

Biggest truth bomb of the summer. Thanks

[TMTTRIO]

Spurs probably should've let him retire after last season when he was contemplating it or sign him for one more year knowing that he would want to end it with his National Team.

[ElNono]

It depends on what you're disagreeing with. If you disagree that water is wet, you're probably being stupid. And everyone here except a few with some emotional bias saw the wet water.

Doesn't mean groupthink is always right. You don't have to look further than our current president. :lol


And, regarding that contract, quite a few people disagree with that opinion. Manu gets to have that opinion himself at the cost of some bad PR, where even people who have adored him think he acted a little douchy.

I get people not understanding why he goes out of his way to play for his NT. But I'm not buying the line that the Spurs were expecting him to drop that due to his last deal. I think they know Gino after 12 years on the team...

[littlecoyotecoin]

Doesn't mean groupthink is always right. You don't have to look further than our current president. :lol



I get people not understanding why he goes out of his way to play for his NT. But I'm not buying the line that the Spurs were expecting him to drop that due to his last deal. I think they know Gino after 12 years on the team...

Not drop automatically, just given the conditions. The proof is now in the pudding, and he forced them to send a letter he shouldn't have needed, and was later sent via neuron in case he missed the first.

[ElNono]

Not drop automatically, just given the conditions. The proof is now in the pudding, and he forced them to send a letter he shouldn't have needed, and was later sent via neuron in case he missed the first.

I agree with that. On the other hand, he makes it sound like this was his last chance to play for the NT at a high level. (I would disagree with that, but if the Spurs don't extend him after next season, I can see him retiring from basketball for good).

[littlecoyotecoin]

I agree with that. On the other hand, he makes it sound like this was his last chance to play for the NT at a high level. (I would disagree with that, but if the Spurs don't extend him after next season, I can see him retiring from basketball for good).

I hope he can get his wish to play with them again, too. The first step in trying to make that happen is to take care of himself. Hopefully, our bench can step up to assist with that. I think he played only 18 mpg last season...here's to it being slightly less this season, and lots of time off to start the season, DNP's, etc.

[gameFACE]

The Spurs have been very accommodating with Manu and his national team play over the years. It's cost him his health and arguably championships several times. Time to respect the hand that feeds you. If there are any problems it's of Manu's making. Retire from the Spurs after the B2B next year and then retire from the national team after that.

[diego]

There have been a lot of changes in the understanding and treatment of stress fractures, just in the last decade. A lot of "good" doctors cling to the old ways, even after it should be obvious that there are better treatments. Stress fractures take a long damn time to fully heal, and longer as we age. The accepted treatment these days is a period of inactivity, followed by a slow rehab process. One big contributor to stress fractures is when the muscles can't handle the full load, and more of the impact is transferred to the bone. And since the muscles deteriorate during the initial period of inactivity, it's important to strengthen the muscles ahead of any increase in impact training (weeks, not days).

Manu has had this same problem in his right leg, over and over. And since he's never taken a summer off (that I can remember) it's possible, maybe even likely, that it has never fully healed. The really bad thing is that if a stress fracture doesn't completely heal, it makes it easy to re-injure. And after a while, it can reach a point where it will never heal properly. After 6 weeks, he could have started strengthening exercises. But "ramping up" his training regimen, to try and make up for the period of inactivity is just fucking stupid. No if's, and's, or but's - just fucking stupid.

The Spurs had a legitimate, contractual right to tell him not to play or train with the NT this summer. He ignored them and started an accelerated training regimen that no up-to-date doctor would have approved. If he's not 100% by the beginning of training camp, I'm pretty sure the team could terminate his contract. I don't think there is any chance the Spurs would ever do that. But by running off and ignoring their instructions, he pretty much has to hit training camp running, just to prove that he didn't re-injure his leg. I love Manu and what he's done for the Spurs over the years, but this was selfish. He needs to come back and get on a supervised rehab program, and work things out with the FO to stay on light duty at least through the end of camp, and (even more) limited minutes until after the AS break. A healthy Manu really improves the Spurs' chance of a repeat. He's been through enough training camps with the Spurs, and they will be fine without him in November and December.

I don't believe that this is an elaborate story to try and make everyone happy about him not playing with the NT. If he really went there and started training, it says he was really planning on playing this summer. With his injury, and his age/history, I don't think there is any legitimate sports osteopath who would say that was something he should do. I don't know who the doctor in Chicago was, but he should start thinking about retiring, too.

If manu has had this problem for such a long time, why didn't the spurs sit him out? Why resign him?

The spurs doctors failed to diagnose this fracture for at least two months. If you went to your company doctor multiple times because of pain and he told you to keep working, and then right before vacations told you you had a serious condition and couldn't go on vacation, you wouldn't be at least a little suspicious of that doctor? Bottom line is that the spurs docs failed to diagnose this injury when it happened there's no disputing that.

Manu said all along that if he wasn't fit to play he wouldn't. When the pain came back he stopped as he said he would. if the spurs doctors had diagnosed the injury when he felt pain instead of days after he decided to play for the NT he probably wouldn't have even committed to the NT.

[littlecoyotecoin]

If manu has had this problem for such a long time, why didn't the spurs sit him out? Why resign him?

The spurs doctors failed to diagnose this fracture for at least two months. If you went to your company doctor multiple times because of pain and he told you to keep working, and then right before vacations told you you had a serious condition and couldn't go on vacation, you wouldn't be at least a little suspicious of that doctor? Bottom line is that the spurs docs failed to diagnose this injury when it happened there's no disputing that.

Manu said all along that if he wasn't fit to play he wouldn't. When the pain came back he stopped as he said he would. if the spurs doctors had diagnosed the injury when he felt pain instead of days after he decided to play for the NT he probably wouldn't have even committed to the NT.

Your books are so wrong there is no wonder your bottom line is, too.

[GSH]

The only thing I'll say about this is that according to reports, the stress fracture was very small. I'm not a doctor, and I don't pretend to be one (most of the time anyways), but, you know, there was that.



I'm pretty sure he's going to rest now. Last summer, the Spurs sent a physical trainer with him to Argentina, and judging by the good season he had, it worked well.
Obviously, this summer I don't expect he'll be doing much of anything until he returns for training camp.



You always have good reasons for your positions. Even when I come to a different conclusion, I don't doubt your logic or the validity of your arguments. Sometimes you even change my mind. (Occasionally, I even admit it.) I didn't know the team sent a trainer with him last year. I hope they are doing the same this year. More - I hope he's listening to them. He's such a fierce competitor, I can see him thinking he can just push harder and work through this. This is one injury that just doesn't work that way.

I'm no doctor, but I do have a little experience with these injuries. Early on, stress fractures can't even be seen with x-rays - that's why it took a CAT scan to find Manu's. I wouldn't be nearly as concerned, if he wasn't 37 years old, with a long history of injuries to that same bone. The size of the injury isn't nearly as important as the possibility that it's the same injury, and has never really been allowed to heal fully.

When a stress fracture is forming, the connective tissue around the bone becomes inflamed, and that is the pain that people feel. The problem is, they think that when the pain is gone, they are better. But the inflammation goes away a lot more quickly than the tiny fissures in the bone. I know what Manu is thinking: "My leg isn't hurting, so I must be better." (I've been there.) It's logical - it's just very, very wrong. Keep re-injuring the bone, and eventually it causes some structural changes. The little fissures just won't heal anymore. Also, our bone mass increases until somewhere around age 35. Manu is reaching an age where it is much more important for him to let a stress fracture completely heal. So far this summer, that hasn't happened. Knowing what I know, I don't see how he can be though (proper) rehab, and ready for a full-speed training camp.


I'll say this: I understand why the fans in Argentina want to see him in the uniform one more time. And I was wrong to call him selfish for trying to make it happen. He was playing with the same injury during the playoffs, for the benefit of the Spurs. But I do think there's a time when a great athlete has to understand that, no matter how badly they want it, playing injured risks the bigger picture. I would love to see him have one more (at least) really good season, and not finish his career saddled with a chronic injury. I'd rather see him miss games at the beginning of the season, rather than the end.

[ElNono]

I'll say this: I understand why the fans in Argentina want to see him in the uniform one more time. And I was wrong to call him selfish for trying to make it happen. He was playing with the same injury during the playoffs, for the benefit of the Spurs. But I do think there's a time when a great athlete has to understand that, no matter how badly they want it, playing injured risks the bigger picture. I would love to see him have one more (at least) really good season, and not finish his career saddled with a chronic injury. I'd rather see him miss games at the beginning of the season, rather than the end.

There's also the fact that there's better odds for him to do something big with the Spurs next season than with the NT right now. Going out on top with a back to back championship (a first for the franchise to boot), would be a great way to close an amazing career.

[GSH]

If manu has had this problem for such a long time, why didn't the spurs sit him out? Why resign him?

The spurs doctors failed to diagnose this fracture for at least two months. If you went to your company doctor multiple times because of pain and he told you to keep working, and then right before vacations told you you had a serious condition and couldn't go on vacation, you wouldn't be at least a little suspicious of that doctor? Bottom line is that the spurs docs failed to diagnose this injury when it happened there's no disputing that.

Manu said all along that if he wasn't fit to play he wouldn't. When the pain came back he stopped as he said he would. if the spurs doctors had diagnosed the injury when he felt pain instead of days after he decided to play for the NT he probably wouldn't have even committed to the NT.


The fact is, he HAS had this problem for a long time. That part isn't even up for debate. Check his game logs - they did sit him out. And they re-signed him because, even at 37, he's a bad MF. They obviously expect that he will be healthy.

You can read what I just said to Nono. Low level stress fractures aren't that easy to spot. The (early) pain comes from inflammation around the bone, not the bone itself. Should they have done CAT scans during the season? I damn sure would have. But then again, I don't know if they did or didn't. Like I said, they aren't that easy to spot until they get much worse. What I do know is that once a stress fracture is found, there are some well-understood treatment steps. The Spurs have a very admirable history of protecting injured players, rather than pushing them to go back on the floor. I have no doubt that they would have held him out, if they knew. Maybe they let him play in the Finals, knowing that he had some pain. I still want to believe they would have kept him on the bench if they knew that he had a stress fracture. But if they suspected it was his last season anyway? Who knows?

Your comment about the pain going away is EXACTLY the problem with stress fractures. Like I said above, the inflammation (and pain) goes away long before the injury is fully healed. It's a VERY common problem with competitive athletes. They think if they feel no pain, they can go back to normal duty. And when the pain isn't too bad, they think they can just play through it.

You need to check the facts. The injury was diagnosed in his exit physical with the Spurs. He committed to the NT knowing that, apparently based on the advice of the doctor in Chicago. That doctor told him that 40 days would be more than enough time to heal, so he decided he could play over the summer. There's a difference between not being able to spot an early stress fracture, and giving bad advice about how to treat one that is known. Out of the whole incident, it's the doctor in Chicago that I have an issue with, based on Manu's own comments.

Unlike many people here, I don't think the Spurs' doctors are superior because they are American, or just because they work for the Spurs. But I do know that the team has a long history of protecting players' health, rather than encouraging them to play injured. They have even been good to ex-players who have gotten injured. So I won't suspect them of endangering a player, unless I see some very solid evidence.

[GSH]

There's also the fact that there's better odds for him to do something big with the Spurs next season than with the NT right now. Going out on top with a back to back championship (a first for the franchise to boot), would be a great way to close an amazing career.

On this, we're in 100% agreement. It would be a beautiful thing. I got nothin' to add.

[littlecoyotecoin]

The fact is, he HAS had this problem for a long time. That part isn't even up for debate. Check his game logs - they did sit him out. And they re-signed him because, even at 37, he's a bad MF. They obviously expect that he will be healthy.

You can read what I just said to Nono. Low level stress fractures aren't that easy to spot. The (early) pain comes from inflammation around the bone, not the bone itself. Should they have done CAT scans during the season? I damn sure would have. But then again, I don't know if they did or didn't. Like I said, they aren't that easy to spot until they get much worse. What I do know is that once a stress fracture is found, there are some well-understood treatment steps. The Spurs have a very admirable history of protecting injured players, rather than pushing them to go back on the floor. I have no doubt that they would have held him out, if they knew. Maybe they let him play in the Finals, knowing that he had some pain. I still want to believe they would have kept him on the bench if they knew that he had a stress fracture. But if they suspected it was his last season anyway? Who knows?

Your comment about the pain going away is EXACTLY the problem with stress fractures. Like I said above, the inflammation (and pain) goes away long before the injury is fully healed. It's a VERY common problem with competitive athletes. They think if they feel no pain, they can go back to normal duty. And when the pain isn't too bad, they think they can just play through it.

You need to check the facts. The injury was diagnosed in his exit physical with the Spurs. He committed to the NT knowing that, apparently based on the advice of the doctor in Chicago. That doctor told him that 40 days would be more than enough time to heal, so he decided he could play over the summer. There's a difference between not being able to spot an early stress fracture, and giving bad advice about how to treat one that is known. Out of the whole incident, it's the doctor in Chicago that I have an issue with, based on Manu's own comments.

Unlike many people here, I don't think the Spurs' doctors are superior because they are American, or just because they work for the Spurs. But I do know that the team has a long history of protecting players' health, rather than encouraging them to play injured. They have even been good to ex-players who have gotten injured. So I won't suspect them of endangering a player, unless I see some very solid evidence.

You are a saint for devoting your time to a well-reasoned response.

[diego]

The fact is, he HAS had this problem for a long time. That part isn't even up for debate. Check his game logs - they did sit him out. And they re-signed him because, even at 37, he's a bad MF. They obviously expect that he will be healthy.

You can read what I just said to Nono. Low level stress fractures aren't that easy to spot. The (early) pain comes from inflammation around the bone, not the bone itself. Should they have done CAT scans during the season? I damn sure would have. But then again, I don't know if they did or didn't. Like I said, they aren't that easy to spot until they get much worse. What I do know is that once a stress fracture is found, there are some well-understood treatment steps. The Spurs have a very admirable history of protecting injured players, rather than pushing them to go back on the floor. I have no doubt that they would have held him out, if they knew. Maybe they let him play in the Finals, knowing that he had some pain. I still want to believe they would have kept him on the bench if they knew that he had a stress fracture. But if they suspected it was his last season anyway? Who knows?

Your comment about the pain going away is EXACTLY the problem with stress fractures. Like I said above, the inflammation (and pain) goes away long before the injury is fully healed. It's a VERY common problem with competitive athletes. They think if they feel no pain, they can go back to normal duty. And when the pain isn't too bad, they think they can just play through it.

You need to check the facts. The injury was diagnosed in his exit physical with the Spurs. He committed to the NT knowing that, apparently based on the advice of the doctor in Chicago. That doctor told him that 40 days would be more than enough time to heal, so he decided he could play over the summer. There's a difference between not being able to spot an early stress fracture, and giving bad advice about how to treat one that is known. Out of the whole incident, it's the doctor in Chicago that I have an issue with, based on Manu's own comments.

Unlike many people here, I don't think the Spurs' doctors are superior because they are American, or just because they work for the Spurs. But I do know that the team has a long history of protecting players' health, rather than encouraging them to play injured. They have even been good to ex-players who have gotten injured. So I won't suspect them of endangering a player, unless I see some very solid evidence.


First to be clear i'm not trying to antagonize you, just discuss the situation. I usually dont bother to respond unless I have a little bit of respect for the other person.

That said you are wrong about some things. Manu waited to the end of the season to commit to the NT, precisely on the argument that he wanted to see how he felt to end the season. He committed June 20, game 5 was June 15, his injury was reported July 2. that was the timeline.

After all that (and the Chicago specialist) manu went to Argentina, in his press conference he said the pain was there for 2-3 months and tests came back fine so he kept playing. I understand the type of injury is difficult to diagnose (perhaps it was difficult to diagnose because it was a very small fracture and not that serious?), but the fact remains that it was diagnosed late and the timing was suspicious. I have no reason to distrust the spurs medical staff, but the fact remains one of their players was in pain and limping around and they let him play, iirc he played more in the PO than RS too.

I don't know what game log I should check to see manu rested because of a stress fracture. Obviously in 08/09. But other than that, i don't think he's ever been rested because of a stress fracture, unless you mean limited minutes, to which I would answer that pop does that for everyone. Manu came back strong from the 08 injury. 10 and 11 were some of his best years, probably among his highest in minutes played, he got freak injuries in the PO that had nothing to do with overuse/fragility. 2012 another unlucky injury (broken hand vs Minnie) and then pop dropped his minutes drastically- IMO that had more to do with the arrival/blossoming of green, Leonard, and jack than injury. If you really believe manu has had this problem for a really long time, then I would have expected the spurs to shut manu down 4-6 months to fully heal it.

If manu didn't see the risk of playing through the pain its probably because he's been doing it for months with the spurs blessing. Again, if the diagnosis was made before the end of the season and not after committing to the NT that changes things significantly.

[BillMc]

There's also the fact that there's better odds for him to do something big with the Spurs next season than with the NT right now. Going out on top with a back to back championship (a first for the franchise to boot), would be a great way to close an amazing career.


I agree. That said, part of me wanted him to play 2 more years and then go out with his national team in the Olympics. But, I just get the feeling from what he has said, that this was his last shot at international play, which probably means also that this is his last season in the NBA too. Certainly, I could be wrong and certainly things could change.

[spurastic]

It is wise to get second opinions with medical situations. One should not just accept what the "doctor" says. They are only human. I admire Manu for his dedication to the sport, the Spurs and his home country. This situation just increased my admiration for his intelligence.

[littlecoyotecoin]

It is wise to get second opinions with medical situations. One should not just accept what the "doctor" says. They are only human. I admire Manu for his dedication to the sport, the Spurs and his home country.

We all agreed on that about 30 seconds into the discussion. But, thanks for restating that. Regarding the part omitted, his decision was emotional, not logical or intelligent.

[TMTTRIO]

by the way any word on if Manu's going to need surgery on it. I know he had surgery a few years ago on it to clean it out and they said that eventually in a few years he may need it again.

[littlecoyotecoin]

by the way any word on if Manu's going to need surgery on it. I know he had surgery a few years ago on it to clean it out and they said that eventually in a few years he may need it again.

I don't think there is any idea, yet. He will have to go through a REAL recovery period, and rehab, before we know if it will heal on its own.

[ElNono]

by the way any word on if Manu's going to need surgery on it. I know he had surgery a few years ago on it to clean it out and they said that eventually in a few years he may need it again.

No word yet, and he did NOT have surgery on that injury before.... (he had surgery on his left ankle in 2008, this is on the right fibula)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-ginobiliinjured040609

[TMTTRIO]

Well fortunately Manu doesn't seem to down or depressed about not playing.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BujvVnYIAAA1Unk.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bujisv0IQAAxJ3g.jpg

[ElNono]

There's a new interview in La Nación with him talking about a bit of everything, including the injury. Too late now, but I'll translate tomorrow if nobody beats me to it:

http://canchallena.lanacion.com.ar/1717042-manu-ginobili-es-casi-seguro-en-un-98-que-no-voy-a-jugar-mas-con-el-seleccionado