Kevin Love is a top 10 player in the NBA,,,,

[HemisfairArena]

If you don't think so,,,I challenge you to name 10 better and I'll even spot you LeBron, Durant, and Davis. Now lets see your list of stat padders that are better than a 25 year old averaging 26 and 12 before his prime,,,,

[spurraider21]

He's the white Dwight Howard

[Clipper Nation]

:lol Couldn't even get the eighth seed with Rubio, Pekovic, Dieng, etc.

[HemisfairArena]

:lol Couldn't even get the eighth seed with Rubio, Pekovic, Dieng, etc.

Name 10 better,,,(Blake fraud 24 and 9 player,,,no rings)

[Chris]

Carmelo Anthony
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Lebron James

I just named 10 better
Top 15 for sure, but still plays shitty defense

[Clipper Nation]

Name 10 better,,,(Blake fraud 24 and 9 player,,,no rings)

:lmao Love doesn't even have a single playoff appearance to his name, but Blake's the fraud for not having a ring at age 25?

[Malik Hairston]

Carmelo Anthony
Kobe Bryant :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
Dwyane Wade :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan :lol:lol:lol
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Lebron James

I just named 10 better
Top 15 for sure, but still plays shitty defense

[Sean Cagney]

He is overrated, a chucker and stat padder on a bad team, period. I am not a huge fan. He sucks on D too.

[HemisfairArena]

Carmelo Anthony
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Lebron James

I just named 10 better
Top 15 for sure, but still plays shitty defense

Delusional at its finest,,,,

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lmao Love doesn't even have a single playoff appearance to his name, but Blake's the fraud for not having a ring at age 25?

Blake has CPIII

[HemisfairArena]

:lmao Love doesn't even have a single playoff appearance to his name, but Blake's the fraud for not having a ring at age 25?

Blake cant even win with Doc and CP3,,,,LMAO

[Clipper Nation]

Blake has CPIII

And? He could easily make the playoffs without the choker, as he proved last season when Choke went down with his annual injury and Blake played the best basketball of his career and kept the team afloat in the standings.... what's Love's excuse? A supposed "top 10 player" who can't even get the 8th seed once in his career?

[Malik Hairston]

Advanced metrics have done a great job at filtering "stat-padding", tbh, it's not really a valid argument anymore..

If your numbers aren't carrying weight, your on/off metrics will show it, for the most part..

[ElNono]

Russell Westbrook
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Stephen Curry
Carmelo Anthony
James Harden
Dirk Nowitzki

Arguably better also:
Blake Griffin
LaMarcus Aldrige
Damian Lillard
John Wall
Kyrie Irving

------

I would agree he's top 10 in the big man category... possibly top 5...

,,,,,,,,

[Clipper Nation]

He sucks on D too.

Statistically one of the worst rim protectors in the league, and he would rather get into rebounding position early than actually guard his man or contest a shot.... this is a big reason why the Cavs (who are in dire need of rim protection) would be foolish to trade the farm for this stat-padder....

[baseline bum]

Carmelo Anthony
Kobe Bryant :lmao
Dwyane Wade :lmao
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Russell Westbrook
Tony Parker
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Lebron James

I just named 10 better
Top 15 for sure, but still plays shitty defense

Might as well put Amare Stoudemire on that list as long as you're naming washed up players who used to be great.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

And? He could easily make the playoffs without the choker, as he proved last season when Choke went down with his annual injury and Blake played the best basketball of his career and kept the team afloat in the standings.... what's Love's excuse? A supposed "top 10 player" who can't even get the 8th seed once in his career?

I think Griffin is better, but Paul gets him some easy looks and definitely makes his job easier. Not saying that it's not the same for Love.. Rubio is a great pass-first PG.. but he's not quite Paul-level.

[HemisfairArena]

And? He could easily make the playoffs without the choker, as he proved last season when Choke went down with his annual injury and Blake played the best basketball of his career and kept the team afloat in the standings.... what's Love's excuse? A supposed "top 10 player" who can't even get the 8th seed once in his career?

Clippers went 32-50 in Blake's first year and he averaged 22/gm and played all 82 games,,,,now whats your excuse? He couldn't win shit without Doc and CP3.

[Clipper Nation]

I think Griffin is better, but Paul gets him some easy looks and definitely makes his job easier. Not saying that it's not the same for Love.. Rubio is a great pass-first PG.. but he's not quite Paul-level.
If Blake's success was all because of Choke setting him up with easy looks, then he wouldn't have had a 22/12 rookie season and unanimous ROY without Choke, nor would he have cemented himself as a top-3 MVP candidate last year without Choke.... if anything, Choke's overdribbling and ballhogging down the stretch is holding Blake back, tbh...

[ElNono]

I think Griffin is better, but Paul gets him some easy looks and definitely makes his job easier. Not saying that it's not the same for Love.. Rubio is a great pass-first PG.. but he's not quite Paul-level.

Rubio is one of the most overrated players in the league, tbh... A point guard that can't shoot and isn't athletic... you take away the passing eye-candy, and I'm not sure he makes the D-League, tbh

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKto9xsrNQo

:lmao

[Clipper Nation]

Clippers went 32-50 in Blake's first year and he averaged 22/gm and played all 82 games,,,,now whats your excuse? He couldn't win shit without Doc and CP3.

In Blake's rookie season, he won more games than Love has won in any season of his career except last year (his sixth season in the league).... that's also despite Gordon and Kaman missing significant time, Aminu predictably turning out to be a bust, VDN as coach, and one of the worst benches in the league :lol

[HemisfairArena]

In Blake's rookie season, he won more games than Love has won in any season of his career except last year (his sixth season in the league).... that's also despite Gordon and Kaman missing significant time, Aminu predictably turning out to be a bust, VDN as coach, and one of the worst benches in the league :lol

Still waiting,,,name 10 better than Kevin Love in the NBA right now( we can debate Blake vs. Love in a different thread if you like,,,,it would be a good thread actually,,,start it up.)

[Clipper Nation]

Still waiting,,,name 10 better than Kevin Love in the NBA right now( we can debate Blake vs. Love in a different thread if you like,,,,it would be a good thread actually,,,start it up.)

There is no debate until Love makes the playoffs as a top 2 option and at least isn't a total liability on defense, end of story....

[HemisfairArena]

There is no debate until Love makes the playoffs as a top 2 option and at least isn't a total liability on defense, end of story....

LMAO?,,,,Blake needed CP3 and Doc,,,,lets see what KLove can do now that he finally gets help(LeBron and Irving).

[unforeseen]

Statistically one of the worst rim protectors in the league, and he would rather get into rebounding position early than actually guard his man or contest a shot.... this is a big reason why the Cavs (who are in dire need of rim protection) would be foolish to trade the farm for this stat-padder....

How dare you bring statistics to this thread. :lol
Even Fatmelo can carry a team to the playoffs.

[spurraider21]

LMAO?,,,,Blake needed CP3 and Doc,,,,lets see what KLove can do now that he finally gets help(LeBron and Irving).
:lol Love isn't getting help.. Love IS the help

[HemisfairArena]

How dare you bring statistics to this thread. :lol
Even Fatmelo can carry a team to the playoffs.

Fatmelo better than Anthony Davis?,,,,I didn't see the Pelicans in the playoffs.

[Brunodf]

He has some great stats but somehow cant make the playoffs...

[Malik Hairston]

Tier 1, no order
Lebron, Durant

Tier 2
Paul, Westbrook

Tier 3
Curry, Love, Griffin, Davis

Tier 4
Harden, Howard, Anthony, Aldridge

[Clipper Nation]

LMAO?,,,,Blake needed CP3 and Doc,,,,lets see what KLove can do now that he finally gets help(LeBron and Irving).

Irving - another overrated player with terrible, lazy defense - is hardly "help," so it will be LeBron carrying Love to the playoffs.... LBJ also carried Ira Newble to the playoffs, did that make him a top 10 player too? :lol

[HemisfairArena]

:lol Love isn't getting help.. Love IS the help

Name 10 better players in the NBA,,,,I'm still waiting,,,,

[HemisfairArena]

Tier 1, no order
Lebron, Durant

Tier 2
Paul, Westbrook

Tier 3
Curry, Love, Griffin, Davis

Tier 4
Harden, Howard, Anthony, Aldridge

These guys cant name 10 better players,,,,I challenged them and they cant come through

[spurraider21]

Name 10 better players in the NBA,,,,I'm still waiting,,,,
LeBron
Durant
Davis
Westbrook
Griffin
Paul
Dwight
Curry
Carmelo
Aldridge

[Malik Hairston]

Minnesota had the 9th best SRS in the league this past regular season, they just played in a very difficult conference and lost a ton of close games(they had one of the worst "close game" records in recent history IIRC)..

It's not like Love would magically become a better player if they were in the East and making it to the playoffs:lol..

[hater]

prototypical stat padder that will never be a franchise player for a contender.

He's the white Amare Stoudemire imo

[unforeseen]

Fatmelo better than Anthony Davis?,,,,I didn't see the Pelicans in the playoffs.

I never said Fatmelo is better than AD. But he is marginally better than Love though.

[HemisfairArena]

LeBron
Durant
Davis
Westbrook
Griffin
Paul
Dwight
Curry
Carmelo
Aldridge

Curry, Aldridge, Carmelo, Dwight?,,,,LMAO

[HemisfairArena]

And anyone who takes Westbrick over a 26 and 12 power forward,,,,got damn.

[spurraider21]

Curry, Aldridge, Carmelo, Dwight?,,,,LMAO
excellent points. i'm already second-guessing my decisions

[HemisfairArena]

excellent points. i'm already second-guessing my decisions

Take it easy, tiger,,,your list is yours and yours alone,,,,,stupidity be damned.

[spurraider21]

Take it easy, tiger,,,your list is yours and yours alone,,,,,stupidity be damned.
and your thread is yours and yours alone... stupidity be damned

[ElNono]

Curry, Aldridge, Carmelo, Dwight?,,,,LMAO

They're all leaders of their teams and they've all taken their teams to, at the very least, the 2nd round of the playoffs....

Putting big numbers on bad teams isn't hard. Putting big numbers on an average team and still not making the playoffs is certainly quite a feat though...

[djohn2oo8]

And anyone who takes Westbrick over a 26 and 12 power forward,,,,got damn.

That same PF is damn near 7 feet and never shot 50% in a season. He's not a #1.

[HemisfairArena]

and your thread is yours and yours alone... stupidity be damned

20k posts against my 1k and that's the best ya got,,,parrot a loser like me,,,,?

[djohn2oo8]

Also, how often is Love double teamed?

[HemisfairArena]

That same PF is damn near 7 feet and never shot 50% in a season. He's not a #1.

Which would you rather have Harden or Love on your team?

[Malik Hairston]

Love was the most efficient big man in the league this season, all things considered(role, FGAs)..only Dirk was comparable..

[mudyez]

lets put it this way: There are probably 15 better players as your #1 option, but if you put a shotblocker next to him, he may be the best #2 player in the league (#1 beeing a playmaker like Bron, Curry,...).

[Sean Cagney]

Statistically one of the worst rim protectors in the league, and he would rather get into rebounding position early than actually guard his man or contest a shot.... this is a big reason why the Cavs (who are in dire need of rim protection) would be foolish to trade the farm for this stat-padder....
I agree with you fully! I don't get why people overhype this guy who is a career loser stat padder on a losing team! He can't play D and relies on outside shots too much and shoots a low % from 2 being he is nearly 7 foot tall! He is one of the more overrated players in this league IMO! I don't get the hype around this guy, never have never will.

[CitizenDwayne]

prototypical stat padder that will never be a franchise player for a contender.

He's the white Amare Stoudemire imo

Yeah, and Amare was certainly a top 10 player at his peak

[TDMVPDPOY]

cp3 tier 2 player...roflmao

the amount of excuses for this clown should run out by now

with or without talent around him, his still shit leading them to nowhere, and when its last game on the line he will lead them to the biggest deficit loss

[AchillesHeel]

Lebron
KD
Westbrook
Curry
Lillard
CP0
Davis
healthy Kobe
healthy Rose
healthy Paul George
Dirk
Aldridge
Griffin
Melo

Those are the players I'd put over Love right now, at least 13 of them if Kobe, PG and Rose were healthy.

He's the perfect forward to complement Lebron and they will most likely make the Finals together, but he's not a top 10 player in this league with some of these guys leading average teams to Playoffs in the Western Conference. You'd honestly put Love ahead of Griffin, Aldridge, Davis or Dirk, based off of last season? He's borderline top 5 PF in the league, but not a top 10 player.

He puts up some nice stats, but they haven't won many games and before you tell me the Wolves are so horrible as a team, how many games did they lose in crunch time last season, when they needed Love to seal the deal?

Love's crunch time numbers last season

(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)
Floor Time statistics


Min
Net Pts
Off
Def
Net48
W
L
Win%


94%
-80
103.3
128.5
-25.3
15
22
40.5%


These stats represent how the team performed in clutch situations while the player was on the floor.
The Net48 number shows the average +/- net points over a full game.

Scoring


By
FG.
FGA
FG%
eFG%
Ast'd
Blk'd
FTM
Pts


48 Min
9.8
27.5
.356
.425
65%
5%
8.5
31.9

[spurraider21]

20k posts against my 1k and that's the best ya got,,,parrot a loser like me,,,,?
1.77k posts in and doesn't understand mockery :lol

[djohn2oo8]

Which would you rather have Harden or Love on your team?

Harden.

[TDMVPDPOY]

love doesnt play to win man

he only plays to pad empty stats

his looking at the bigger picture since the nba is a business and only handful of teams are really contenders, his going after what everyone is failing to understand...get paid

his one of them players who has figure out the league...pad stats to get max contract

[Tuddy]

Parker has a slightly quieter year and he goes from top 5 to out of the 10?

[Clipper Nation]

He puts up some nice stats, but they haven't won many games and before you tell me the Wolves are so horrible as a team, how many games did they lose in crunch time last season, when they needed Love to seal the deal?

Love's crunch time numbers last season

(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)
Floor Time statistics


Min
Net Pts
Off
Def
Net48
W
L
Win%


94%
-80
103.3
128.5
-25.3
15
22
40.5%


These stats represent how the team performed in clutch situations while the player was on the floor.
The Net48 number shows the average +/- net points over a full game.

Scoring


By
FG.
FGA
FG%
eFG%
Ast'd
Blk'd
FTM
Pts


48 Min
9.8
27.5
.356
.425
65%
5%
8.5
31.9



The goods ^

Love's stans like to claim that the Wolves were just "unlucky" in close games, but if Love had anywhere near the impact he's hyped up to have, he should be enough to swing some of those close games in Minny's favor....

Right off the top of my head, last year, I recall Love choking a game against us by missing a bunny layup and choking a game against MethKC at the free throw line....

[Spur-Addict]

LOL Kevin Love

[RsxPiimp]

Some of y'all are delusional.

Curry, Harden and even Melo (exception of last season) are not better than Love:lol

[djohn2oo8]

Some of y'all are delusional.

Curry, Harden and even Melo (exception of last season) are not better than Love:lol

What makes Love better?

[Chinook]

I don't get the Curry love (lol). He's barely a top-10 PG. He's not better than Love, and he's not a championship-level first option.

Anyway, I'm surprised Marc Gasol isn't making any top-10 lists. I definitely think he may be better than Love.

James
Durant
Davis
Westbrook
Bosh
Griffin
Paul
Aldridge
Dirk
Gasol

[Malik Hairston]

The #1 option argument is pretty illogical, tbh, as there are only 2 legit "traditional" #1 options in the league today, unless you want to include Westbrook in there, too, tbh..

As we just saw with the Spurs, where Kawhi Leonard was the best Spur in the Finals(and Diaw may have even been 2nd), you don't necessarily need to have a traditional #1 guy if you have other great players and a top-level system..

[Blake]

Lebron
Diaw
Davis
Westbrook
Durant
Griffin
Paul
Aldridge
Melo
Kobe

[djohn2oo8]

The #1 option argument is pretty illogical, tbh, as there are only 2 legit "traditional" #1 options in the league today, unless you want to include Westbrook in there, too, tbh..

As we just saw with the Spurs, where Kawhi Leonard was the best Spur in the Finals(and Diaw may have even been 2nd), you don't necessarily need to have a traditional #1 guy if you have other great players and a top-level system..

You need a #1 option to get you to the playoffs. And the Spurs' success because of their system is unparalleled. Miami's system was LeBron and they got two rings. Dirk rang with great defensive players around him yet he was still the #1. No one dismantled the Heat in the Finals like SA did and there's a reason for that.

[Raven]

hard to call him a top 70 player. By stats sure, by watching him, no.

[Malik Hairston]

You need a #1 option to get you to the playoffs. And the Spurs' success because of their system is unparalleled. Miami's system was LeBron and they got two rings. Dirk rang with great defensive players around him yet he was still the #1. No one dismantled the Heat in the Finals like SA did and there's a reason for that.

I meant legit #1s that can win you a title..there are only 2-3 of those in the league at the moment..

Sure, Love isn't, but neither are current Dirk, Curry, Harden, current Howard, Paul, Griffin, etc..

[RsxPiimp]

What makes Love better?

If advance statistics and metrics are your measuring stick, he's better than all of the above.

[RsxPiimp]

What makes Love better?

If advance statistics and metrics are your measuring stick, he's better than all of the above.

[djohn2oo8]

If advance statistics and metrics are your measuring stick, he's better than all of the above.

That would actually make him worse, tbh. So what makes him better?

[Malik Hairston]

Another thing in Love's favor is that he's a high-level off-ball player, which is essential if he's going to be playing in a 1a/2 option role..the transition should be relatively easy, as he already does a ton of his damage off the ball and through rebounding..

Since most of these guys that have been named aren't franchise-level #1 guys, it's imperative that they can play off the ball when teamed up with another superstar player(like the potential Love-Lebron combination)..players like Irving, Harden, Carmelo, etc haven't ever shown that they can succeed without handling the ball, which is a negative against them IMO..

[Raven]

Statistically one of the worst rim protectors in the league, and he would rather get into rebounding position early than actually guard his man or contest a shot.... this is a big reason why the Cavs (who are in dire need of rim protection) would be foolish to trade the farm for this stat-padder....

especially since they have varejao who is a far better defender and just as good as a rebounder.

[djohn2oo8]

Another thing in Love's favor is that he's a high-level off-ball player, which is essential if he's going to be playing in a 1a/2 option role..the transition should be relatively easy, as he already does a ton of his damage off the ball and through rebounding..

Since most of these guys that have been named aren't franchise-level #1 guys, it's imperative that they can play off the ball when teamed up with another superstar player(like the potential Love-Lebron combination)..players like Irving, Harden, Carmelo, etc haven't ever shown that they can succeed without handling the ball, which is a negative against them IMO..

Giving up on a play so he can get the rebound is not damage. Harden can. He hasn't played with a PG who can handle it. Not since Westbrook.

[Raven]

And anyone who takes Westbrick over a 26 and 12 power forward,,,,got damn.

that's not even debatable. Westchuck is better at anything meaningful than love

[RsxPiimp]

That would actually make him worse, tbh. So what makes him better?

:lmao Please explain.

[kobe4life]

All of you guys are fools to say Love is better than God. God never missed the playoffs in his prime when he played a full season while this loser can never get into the playoffs.

[Raven]

Lebron
KD
Westbrook
Curry
Lillard
CP0
Davis
healthy Kobe
healthy Rose
healthy Paul George
Dirk
Aldridge
Griffin
Melo

Those are the players I'd put over Love right now, at least 13 of them if Kobe, PG and Rose were healthy.

He's the perfect forward to complement Lebron and they will most likely make the Finals together, but he's not a top 10 player in this league with some of these guys leading average teams to Playoffs in the Western Conference. You'd honestly put Love ahead of Griffin, Aldridge, Davis or Dirk, based off of last season? He's borderline top 5 PF in the league, but not a top 10 player.

He puts up some nice stats, but they haven't won many games and before you tell me the Wolves are so horrible as a team, how many games did they lose in crunch time last season, when they needed Love to seal the deal?

Love's crunch time numbers last season

(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)
Floor Time statistics


Min
Net Pts
Off
Def
Net48
W
L
Win%


94%
-80
103.3
128.5
-25.3
15
22
40.5%


These stats represent how the team performed in clutch situations while the player was on the floor.
The Net48 number shows the average +/- net points over a full game.

Scoring


By
FG.
FGA
FG%
eFG%
Ast'd
Blk'd
FTM
Pts


48 Min
9.8
27.5
.356
.425
65%
5%
8.5
31.9



holy fuck 128.5 drt :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[djohn2oo8]

:lmao Please explain.
Explain what makes him better.

[RsxPiimp]

Explain what makes him better.

Well for starters, he doesn't rely on food stamps like Harden and though he's not a competent defender he still brings defensive value whether you view it as stat padding or not. I know you're going to write an essay and defend Harden but he's about the most useless player in that list.:lol

I'm willing to bet if you remove Harden and put a non All Star to replace him like Afflalo and replace T Jones with Love they'll go deeper in the playoffs.

[spurraider21]

:lol the people still putting Kobe on their top 10 lists

[Bill_Brasky]

In before Love allows a GW layup to lose a game in the playoffs and the camera cuts to Lebron glaring at him

[Clipper Nation]

he still brings defensive value
While I agree that Harden sucks, I'd love to hear how one of the league's worst rim protectors "brings defensive value".... rim protection is the most important job for a big man on defense and he can't even be mediocre at it....

[spurraider21]

While I agree that Harden sucks, I'd love to hear how one of the league's worst rim protectors "brings defensive value".... rim protection is the most important job for a big man on defense and he can't even be mediocre at it....
he's gna bring up rebounding

[Malik Hairston]

That "clutch time" argument is pretty awful, considering it's a small sample size and you're cherry-picking your guidelines as to what constitutes "clutch time"..

Also, Love's on/off metrics are still great, even factoring defense, just like Harden, Curry and other poor defensive players, tbh..lack of defensive skills plays a part in your overall on/off numbers..

From a building standpoint, finding a defensive 5 to compliment a non-anchor PF is pretty easy, too..well, at least much easier than it is to find a great offensive 4/elite rebounding 4..

[Raven]

That "clutch time" argument is pretty awful, considering it's a small sample size and you're cherry-picking your guidelines as to what constitutes "clutch time"..

Also, Love's on/off metrics are still great, even factoring defense, just like Harden, Curry and other poor defensive players, tbh..lack of defensive skills plays a part in your overall on/off numbers..

From a building standpoint, finding a defensive 5 to compliment a non-anchor PF is pretty easy, too..well, at least much easier than it is to find a great offensive 4/elite rebounding 4..

love is sub par on offense, chucking low percentage jumpers may be fine if you're kobe, but for anyone else it's unacceptable, he needs first to return to being a pf first, then he may be useful to some team. RIght now he is just a joke of a player like carmelo anthony.

[Chinook]

That "clutch time" argument is pretty awful, considering it's a small sample size and you're cherry-picking your guidelines as to what constitutes "clutch time"..

Also, Love's on/off metrics are still great, even factoring defense, just like Harden, Curry and other poor defensive players, tbh..lack of defensive skills plays a part in your overall on/off numbers..

From a building standpoint, finding a defensive 5 to compliment a non-anchor PF is pretty easy, too..well, at least much easier than it is to find a great offensive 4/elite rebounding 4..

I dont think 185 minutes is really THAT small of a sample when the numbers are that glaring. It's very possible Love is a choker. Those exist, and some even get hyped as stars.

As far as defensive centers go, I think elite ones are still hard to find. You can argue that one division has seven of the top 10 defensive bigs in the league, and none of them is for sale.

[Malik Hairston]

love is sub par on offense, chucking low percentage jumpers may be fine if you're kobe, but for anyone else it's unacceptable, he needs first to return to being a pf first, then he may be useful to some team. RIght now he is just a joke of a player like carmelo anthony.

:lol he had a 59% TS this season, he's one of the most efficient players in the entire league..he's absolutely an elite offensive producer..

[Raven]

:lol he had a 59% TS this season, he's one of the most efficient players in the entire league..he's absolutely an elite offensive producer..

that's because he's one of the best free throw shooting big in the league, he is very bad in shooting % . That's simply because every year he goes further from the rim and has a bad shot selection. It's completely mental, if he'd be fine with being the best pf in the game and would refine his game to be that, he could. Instead he wants to be a well rounded statpadding star and ends up being the perfect example of a professional loser.

[Malik Hairston]

I dont think 185 minutes is really THAT small of a sample when the numbers are that glaring. It's very possible Love is a choker. Those exist, and some even get hyped as stars.

As far as defensive centers go, I think elite ones are still hard to find. You can argue that one division has eight of the top 10 defensive bigs in the league, and none of them is for sale.

I don't believe in the "clutch" argument regardless, as I've said before..the "4th quarter down or up 5 with less than 5 minutes left" is extreme cherry-picking, too..those types of stats ignore all surrounding circumstances, especially when using metrics like unadjusted offensive/defensive ratings and wins/losses in "clutch time"..

[Chinook]

I don't believe in the "clutch" argument regardless, as I've said before..the "4th quarter down or up 5 with less than 5 minutes left" is extreme cherry-picking, too..those types of stats ignore all surrounding circumstances, especially when using metrics like unadjusted offensive/defensive ratings and wins/losses in "clutch time"..

I don't believe in clutch players, either. But I do believe in anti-clutch players. People can totally make mistakes repeatedly under pressure.

Chris Paul is a choker. He's proven that time and time again. I'm sure he has fantastic stats, though.

[Malik Hairston]

I don't believe in clutch players, either. But I do believe in anti-clutch players. People can totally make mistakes repeatedly under pressure.

Chris Paul is a choker. He's proven that time and time again. I'm sure he has fantastic stats, though.

Maybe, but there are a ton of circumstances and variables when considering "clutch" players..Dirk and Lebron were viewed as chokers prior to winning titles, for example..

I can't call a player "anti-clutch" until I've seen him in several different situations from a surroundings perspective..I've only seen Love in Minnesota with mediocre supporting casts and a coach that stopped caring years ago..when he changes environments, if he fails in "clutch" situations, then it's probably fair to call him "anti-clutch"..way too early to make that conclusion, though..

It seems like there's a good chance he'll be in Cleveland this season, though, so we'll get some answers soon..

[Malik Hairston]

There's also a difference between players that are "clutch" in just making plays down the stretch(Carmelo, for example), but don't perform well in the playoffs..are those guys considered "clutch"?..it's all subjective interpretations..

Is Tony Parker "clutch"?..he has made a ton of big shots in his career, but he constantly under performs in the playoffs..

[spurraider21]

There's also a difference between players that are "clutch" in just making plays down the stretch(Carmelo, for example), but don't perform well in the playoffs..are those guys considered "clutch"?..it's all subjective interpretations..

Is Tony Parker "clutch"?..he has made a ton of big shots in his career, but he constantly under performs in the playoffs..
its impossible to discuss Love's playoff performances tbh :lol

[Malik Hairston]

its impossible to discuss Love's playoff performances tbh :lol

Just speaking to the inconsistency of the "clutch" argument that began as a tool to hype certain players(Bird, DK, Kobe)..

[skut_farkus]

Love is a top tier roll player. Not someone you build around. A goldenstate monte ellis, big numbers but nothing to show for it.

[Chris]

Malik Hariston deleting his "Love is a top 5 player" from the first page :lol

[Malik Hairston]

Malik Hariston deleting his "Love is a top 5 player" from the first page :lol

He could be, it's a toss-up between him and like 5 other players, tbh..

Fans emphasize "wins and losses" without context too much, it's an antiquated view on ranking players..

[RsxPiimp]

While I agree that Harden sucks, I'd love to hear how one of the league's worst rim protectors "brings defensive value".... rim protection is the most important job for a big man on defense and he can't even be mediocre at it....

I said that in context. I started by admitting Kevin Love is not a competent defender. But compared to Harden, Curry and even Melo, his 12 RPG has to account for something better than any of the aforementioned guys.

[SpursFan86]

Love is absolutely a top 10 player. Lmfao at people saying guys like Duncan and Parker are better than him (this coming from a Spurs fan). Don't even get me started with guys like John Wall and Kyrie Irving...that's just flat-out stupid. Are we really going to sit here and lambast Love for his defense and then turn around and say guys like Parker, Irving, and Harden are better than him? :lol

BTW, where does this myth that Love is a horrible defender come from? Minnesota had a top 10 defense for most of the year and ended up 12th defensively. Love ranked well in DRPM as well. He's an average defender...not some huge defensive liability like some of y'all are making him out to be. Being a bad rim protector =/= being a bad defender overall. Bosh isn't a great rim protector either but he's one of the best PnR defenders in the league and overall he's a very good defender. Love played nearly 40% of his minutes last season at center, which isn't a good way to utilize him. Play him at PF and pair him up with a solid rim protector and he'll be just fine defensively.

Let's look at how Minnesota played with Love on/off the court:

With Love on the court: ORTG = 111.6, DRTG = 106.0, Net RTG = +5.6
With Love off the court: ORTG = 101.1, DRTG = 106.5, Net RTG = -5.3

So with him on the court, Minnesota clearly outplayed their opponents. When he went to the bench, they'd fall apart offensively and give up leads.

Fuck outta here with this primitive logic of "Putting up good stats on a bad team = statpadder who doesn't have a real impact". KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from 2005-2007. Only an idiot would say he wasn't a top player in the league who had a monstrous impact during that span.

[Malik Hairston]

Love is absolutely a top 10 player. Lmfao at people saying guys like Duncan and Parker are better than him (this coming from a Spurs fan). Don't even get me started with guys like John Wall and Kyrie Irving...that's just flat-out stupid. Are we really going to sit here and lambast Love for his defense and then turn around and say guys like Parker, Irving, and Harden are better than him? :lol

BTW, where does this myth that Love is a horrible defender come from? Minnesota had a top 10 defense for most of the year and ended up 12th defensively. Love ranked well in DRPM as well. He's an average defender...not some huge defensive liability like some of y'all are making him out to be. Being a bad rim protector =/= being a bad defender overall. Bosh isn't a great rim protector either but he's one of the best PnR defenders in the league and overall he's a very good defender. Love played nearly 40% of his minutes last season at center, which isn't a good way to utilize him. Play him at PF and pair him up with a solid rim protector and he'll be just fine defensively.

Let's look at how Minnesota played with Love on/off the court:

With Love on the court: ORTG = 111.6, DRTG = 106.0, Net RTG = +5.6
With Love off the court: ORTG = 101.1, DRTG = 106.5, Net RTG = -5.3

So with him on the court, Minnesota clearly outplayed their opponents. When he went to the bench, they'd fall apart offensively and give up leads.

Fuck outta here with this primitive logic of "Putting up good stats on a bad team = statpadder who doesn't have a real impact". KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from 2005-2007. Only an idiot would say he wasn't a top player in the league who had a monstrous impact during that span.

Strong post, tbh, POTM-worthy..

[RsxPiimp]

Yeah, definitely a good post. Completely obliterates a lot of myth about Love being a worthless stat padder:lol

[Kidd K]

Statistically one of the worst rim protectors in the league, and he would rather get into rebounding position early than actually guard his man or contest a shot.... this is a big reason why the Cavs (who are in dire need of rim protection) would be foolish to trade the farm for this stat-padder....

Later career Rodman-esque defensive tendencies tbh

[Kidd K]

Love is absolutely a top 10 player. Lmfao at people saying guys like Duncan and Parker are better than him (this coming from a Spurs fan). Don't even get me started with guys like John Wall and Kyrie Irving...that's just flat-out stupid. Are we really going to sit here and lambast Love for his defense and then turn around and say guys like Parker, Irving, and Harden are better than him? :lol

BTW, where does this myth that Love is a horrible defender come from? Minnesota had a top 10 defense for most of the year and ended up 12th defensively. Love ranked well in DRPM as well. He's an average defender...not some huge defensive liability like some of y'all are making him out to be. Being a bad rim protector =/= being a bad defender overall. Bosh isn't a great rim protector either but he's one of the best PnR defenders in the league and overall he's a very good defender. Love played nearly 40% of his minutes last season at center, which isn't a good way to utilize him. Play him at PF and pair him up with a solid rim protector and he'll be just fine defensively.

Let's look at how Minnesota played with Love on/off the court:

With Love on the court: ORTG = 111.6, DRTG = 106.0, Net RTG = +5.6
With Love off the court: ORTG = 101.1, DRTG = 106.5, Net RTG = -5.3

So with him on the court, Minnesota clearly outplayed their opponents. When he went to the bench, they'd fall apart offensively and give up leads.

Fuck outta here with this primitive logic of "Putting up good stats on a bad team = statpadder who doesn't have a real impact". KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from 2005-2007. Only an idiot would say he wasn't a top player in the league who had a monstrous impact during that span.

Amazing stats tbh. When the best player on a non playoff team with a D-league caliber bench sits down along with the rest of the starters, that team plays poorly. Who would've guessed?

[King Emmanuel]

Love is absolutely a top 10 player. Lmfao at people saying guys like Duncan and Parker are better than him (this coming from a Spurs fan). Don't even get me started with guys like John Wall and Kyrie Irving...that's just flat-out stupid. Are we really going to sit here and lambast Love for his defense and then turn around and say guys like Parker, Irving, and Harden are better than him? :lol

BTW, where does this myth that Love is a horrible defender come from? Minnesota had a top 10 defense for most of the year and ended up 12th defensively. Love ranked well in DRPM as well. He's an average defender...not some huge defensive liability like some of y'all are making him out to be. Being a bad rim protector =/= being a bad defender overall. Bosh isn't a great rim protector either but he's one of the best PnR defenders in the league and overall he's a very good defender. Love played nearly 40% of his minutes last season at center, which isn't a good way to utilize him. Play him at PF and pair him up with a solid rim protector and he'll be just fine defensively.

Let's look at how Minnesota played with Love on/off the court:

With Love on the court: ORTG = 111.6, DRTG = 106.0, Net RTG = +5.6
With Love off the court: ORTG = 101.1, DRTG = 106.5, Net RTG = -5.3

So with him on the court, Minnesota clearly outplayed their opponents. When he went to the bench, they'd fall apart offensively and give up leads.

Fuck outta here with this primitive logic of "Putting up good stats on a bad team = statpadder who doesn't have a real impact". KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from 2005-2007. Only an idiot would say he wasn't a top player in the league who had a monstrous impact during that span.

sucking up to harlem huh

welcome to the welching company

[apalisoc_9]

Love is a top 10 player for sure...

Lebron
KD
Blake Griffin
Russel Westbrook
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
Anthony Davis

These are the only players that I would put above love.

Love is the best player among second tier stars..Parker, Harden, etc....

[SpursFan86]

Amazing stats tbh. When the best player on a non playoff team with a D-league caliber bench sits down along with the rest of the starters, that team plays poorly. Who would've guessed?

You using sarcasm to avoid actually responding with any sort of substance? Those stats illustrate how shitty their bench was. Give Minnesota a competent bench, and they're a 50 win team that makes the playoffs. Suddenly half of these criticisms about Love go away, despite him being the exact same damn player. Funny how that works.

BTW, let's look at Anthony Davis's on/off numbers...since he's the best player on a non-playoff team, we should see numbers similar to the ones we saw with Love, right?

With Davis on the court: Net RTG = -1.8
With Davis on the court: Net RTG = -3.7

No shit teams are typically going to play better with their starters. But the gap usually isn't near as big as the gap between Minnesota's starters and their bench. It's amazing I'm having to explain the importance of having a competent bench when we just watched the Spurs do what they did in 2014.

What is Love supposed to do? When he's on the court, his team plays great and noticeably outplays their opponents. When he's not on the court, they fall apart. I'm not arguing Love is the sole reason this is the case, but are you really going to sit here and argue that Rubio or Corey Brewer are the main reasons for Minnesota having a top 10 offense?

[SpursFan86]

The only criticisms I see when it comes to Love are:

1) "He's a horrible defender" - despite the majority of metrics pointing to him being an average defender at worst...only evidence I've seen is someone bringing up his opponents' FG% at the rim. This is like saying someone is a horrible player on offense solely because he sucks at shooting 3s. Rim protection isn't the only aspect of defense, and Love isn't a center. If you play him at his true position and pair him up with a halfway decent defensive center, he'll be a serviceable defender. Some of y'all act like he's a cancer on defense despite there being absolutely no evidence to support that claim. He's one of the best offensive players in the game, and a top 3 rebounder in the league. He'd have to make DeJuan Blair look like Bill Russell in order to bring his value down to the level y'all are seemingly putting him at.

2) "He's a statpadder who puts up empty numbers since his team only won 40 games" - ignoring the fact that Minnesota's team outside of their starting 5 was absolute trash, and that practically every metric points to Love having a huge impact on his team.

Another thing that people always look over when it comes to Love: he's a great passer for someone his size. Dude has some Duncan-esque outlet passes, and he has no problem finding the open man from the post as well. He's not some black hole on offense that can't handle a double team.

[spurraider21]

sucking up to harlem huh

welcome to the welching company
meh, that was actually a well thought out, coherent, and intelligent post. backed up what he said. can't hate even though i disagree

[King Emmanuel]

doesn't matter he's the next coming of thunderPUP and apalisoc ugh

[spurraider21]

doesn't matter he's the next coming of thunderPUP and apalisoc ugh
i dont think i've noticed him before :lol... has this been a trend with him?

[SpursFan86]

doesn't matter he's the next coming of thunderPUP and apalisoc ugh

Nah don't worry about that. I don't really come down here that often and I'm not into shooting the shit with trolls all day. I won't post down here unless it's a topic I'm particularly interested in.

[King Emmanuel]

since he arrived hes always complimenting leBRONZE, a typical harlemheat thing to do, and using these stupid advanced metrics to prop up a career loser like k love. hes knocking on the WC door

[King Emmanuel]

Nah don't worry about that. I don't really come down here that often and I'm not into shooting the shit with trolls all day. I won't post down here unless it's a topic I'm particularly interested in.

slurp slurp slurp

[djohn2oo8]

]Well for starters, he doesn't rely on food stamps like Harden[/B] and though he's not a competent defender he still brings defensive value whether you view it as stat padding or not. I know you're going to write an essay and defend Harden but he's about the most useless player in that list.:lol

I'm willing to bet if you remove Harden and put a non All Star to replace him like Afflalo and replace T Jones with Love they'll go deeper in the playoffs.

1. Love averaged 8.1....Harden averaged 9.2....Don't act like that is a huge difference. Every player relies on free throws, that is just a stupid argument to try and make.

2. Love had a defensive rating of 104, Jones had a defensive rating of 105. That is unacceptable for an "All star" big man. And supposedly top 10 no less.

3. Then you would have no one in the backcourt that could score or create, you would still have the same problems Jones had against Aldridge... Again, dumb.

4. Harden had a TS% of 61.8%, and an EFG% of 52.9%. Compare that to Love (a near 7 footer) whose TS% WAS 59.1% with an EFG% of 52.4%, which for a big man that is horrendous.



Check out Kevin Love's quarter/quarter stats:
1st: 8.3 points, 4.8 rebounds, 46.5% FG, 41.6% 3 Point
2nd: 5.2 points, 2.4 rebounds, 46.6% FG, 38.8% 3 Point
3rd: 8.4 points, 4 rebounds, 48.4% FG, 37.2% 3 Point
4th: 4.4 points, 2.2 rebounds, 38.4% FG, 30% 3 Point
It's not the 4th quarter dips in points & rebounds that's as big of deal. Kevin only plays about 7 mins in the 4th. It's the field goal & three point percentages. That's a 15.7% lower FG percentage in the 4th. And, a 18.9% lower three point percentages. And, that...is....not....good.
Need more? In games with a margin of 1-5 points, Kevin Love has his lowest field goal percentage (43.3%) as compared with games with margin of 6-10, 11-15, and so on.
So that's just the 4th quarter. Let's get deep into the 4th.


In the 20 games that Kevin Love has played with a less than 5 point margin & 5 minutes left, he has a FG % of 34.3%. His 3PT % is 36.8%
In the 19 games that Kevin Love has played with less than a 5 point margin & 3 minutes left, he has a FG % of 32%. His 3PT % is 26.7%



Now compare that with Harden's

http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?PlayerID=201935&groupFeedtype=clutch&MeasureType=Base&PerMode=PerGame

[djohn2oo8]

Top 10 Clutch Players 2013-2014 Season


Rank
Player
WPA
eWPA
clWPA
gbWPA


1
James Harden
7.20
3
4.53
8
3.09
0.42
77


2
LeBron James
8.43
2
6.92
2
2.80
1.30
3


3
Anthony Davis
5.75
7
4.25
12
2.38
0.89
19


4
Damian Lillard
5.41
10
4.40
9
2.22
1.20
4


5
Blake Griffin
6.33
4
4.81
7
1.95
0.43
73


6
Stephen Curry
5.00
11
4.29
10
1.87
1.16
6


7
Chris Bosh
5.74
8
4.26
11
1.81
0.33
109


8
Wesley Matthews
5.98
6
5.15
6
1.72
0.88
20


9
Kevin Durant
9.30
1
9.02
1
1.66
1.38
1


10
Thaddeus Young
3.36
23
2.22
55
1.65
0.51
55







Bottom 10 Clutch Free Throw Shooters 2013-2014 Season


rank
Player
WPA
eWPA
clWPA
gbWPA


1
Dwight Howard
-2.42
480
-2.48
480
-0.58
-0.64
480


2
Kevin Love

0.02
183
0.59
10
-0.41
0.16
9


3
Andre Drummond
-1.51
478
-1.68
478
-0.34
-0.51
479



4
DeAndre Jordan
-1.55
479
-1.70
479
-0.28
-0.43
478


5
Joakim Noah
-0.37
465
-0.17
423
-0.18
0.02
133


6
Nene Hilario
-0.80
476
-0.75
475
-0.17
-0.12
453


7
J.J. Hickson
-1.09
477
-1.16
477
-0.16
-0.22
473


8
Amir Johnson
-0.25
449
-0.14
403
-0.15
-0.04
391


9
Greg Monroe
-0.63
474
-0.60
473
-0.15
-0.12
454


10
Brandon Jennings
-0.16
424
0.04
141
-0.15
0.06
52





Lol Dwert, but you see who is right behind him

[SpursFan86]

1) DRTG is a horrible measure of defensive ability. It's heavily based on team defense + blocks/steals. Parker was ranked higher than Bowen several times according to DRTG IIRC, and their career averages are very similar (Parker = 104, Bowen = 102)...no one in their right mind would say Parker was even remotely close to Bowen defensively though.

2) Lmao at 59.1 TS% and 52.4 eFG% being "horrendous" for a big man. That's flat-out wrong. Let's look at some all-time great offensive bigs and their career averages:

Kareem - 59.2 TS% and 55.9 eFG%

Karl Malone - 57.7 TS% and 51.8 eFG%

Hakeem - 55.3 TS% and 51.3 eFG%

3) Love's clutch stats are definitely a point of concern, but aren't nearly a big enough reason to knock him down from not even being a top 10 player in the league. People go overboard with the whole "clutchness" cliche.

[djohn2oo8]

1) DRTG is a horrible measure of defensive ability. It's heavily based on team defense + blocks/steals. Parker was ranked higher than Bowen several times according to DRTG...no one in their right mind would say Parker was even remotely close to Bowen defensively though.

2) Lmao at 59.1 TS% and 52.4 eFG% being "horrendous" for a big man. That's flat-out wrong. Let's look at some all-time great offensive bigs and their career averages:

Kareem - 59.2 TS% and 55.9 eFG%

Karl Malone - 57.7 TS% and 51.8 eFG%

Hakeem - 55.3 TS% and 51.3 eFG%

3) Love's clutch stats are definitely a point of concern, but aren't nearly a big enough reason to knock him down from not even being a top 10 player in the league. People go overboard with the whole "clutchness" cliche.

Those are different eras where big men existed and were physical. Love can't shoot effectively against the likes of LaMarcus Aldridge and Terrence Jones' of the NBA. Also, Love doesn't play in the paint. You can bet his numbers would be worse if he had to post up all the time instead of shoot 3's.

[SpursFan86]

Man, there is no possible way you can spin a 59.1 TS% as horrendous. Doesn't matter what era you're in or what position a guy plays. Love is an elite scorer. If you can't even admit this, then this argument is absolutely pointless. I'd rather hear the typical regurgitated shit about him being a "horrible defender" then listen to someone try to argue that Love putting up 26 ppg on well above average efficiency (regardless of position) is "horrendous".

[djohn2oo8]

Man, there is no possible way you can spin a 59.1 TS% as horrendous. Doesn't matter what era you're in or what position a guy plays. Love is an elite scorer. If you can't even admit this, then this argument is absolutely pointless. I'd rather hear the typical regurgitated shit about him being a "horrible defender" then listen to someone try to argue that Love putting up 26 ppg on well above average efficiency (regardless of position) is "horrendous".

45% shooting for a Power Forward is not "well above average" efficiency.

[SpursFan86]

BTW, I like how you decide to bring up the table showing the bottom 10 clutch FT shooters, but don't mention anything about the explanation:

If you're not a Timberwolves fan, you may wonder how Kevin Love, an above average free throw shooter, made it on this list. In Minnesota, they know exactly why: with 2.2 seconds left to go in a January 4 contest against the Thunder, Love was fouled on a three point shot with his team down by two. Love missed all three shots

Those numbers are small sample sizes and as a result, one horrible night can have a huge effect on the overall numbers. They even mention this when it comes to Brandon Jennings ranking poorly:

Season "leader" Brandon Jennings had a pretty brutal night on December 12 against the Pelicans, with about -0.50 of his negative -1.17 clutch WPA coming in that game

[ElNono]

Love is absolutely a top 10 player. Lmfao at people saying guys like Duncan and Parker are better than him (this coming from a Spurs fan). Don't even get me started with guys like John Wall and Kyrie Irving...that's just flat-out stupid. Are we really going to sit here and lambast Love for his defense and then turn around and say guys like Parker, Irving, and Harden are better than him? :lol

...

Let's look at how Minnesota played with Love on/off the court:

With Love on the court: ORTG = 111.6, DRTG = 106.0, Net RTG = +5.6
With Love off the court: ORTG = 101.1, DRTG = 106.5, Net RTG = -5.3


My only issue with this post is the defensive rating... if you claim the bench is "horrible", how come the starters (with Love) have basically the same defensive rating?
Either the bench isn't that horrible or the starters (including Love) are terrible defenders...

It's also worth noting that all the Wolves starters played 30+ mpg (lead by Love with 36+), where the bench players all played 20mpg or less.

[ElNono]

45% shooting for a Power Forward is not "well above average" efficiency.

Agreed. But Love is more of a perimeter guy...

[SpursFan86]

45% shooting for a Power Forward is not "well above average" efficiency.

I mean if you want to be naive and continue solely looking at FG%, then maybe. But if you use your brain and look at it with context, you'll realize that over a third of Love's FGAs come from 3PA, and he's a well-above average shooter from deep. He's also excellent at getting to the line which boosts his overall scoring efficiency.

For example, look at Lillard. Dude shot 42.4% from the field last year, which is mediocre at best. However, when you actually look at the numbers, you see that a large percentage of his attempts come from shooting 3s. Overall, he's an efficient scorer (56.8 TS%).

FG% doesn't tell the whole story. Your average PF isn't taking 7 threes a game like Love.

[djohn2oo8]

Agreed. But Love is more of a perimeter guy...

Exactly. However, how many effective perimeter playing Power Forwards have been around since Dirk first came in? In Love's case, you play on the perimeter instead of the post, you don't draw the double teams you would if he played in the post, which would open up teammates for good shots.

[SpursFan86]

My only issue with this post is the defensive rating... if you claim the bench is "horrible", how come the starters (with Love) have basically the same defensive rating?
Either the bench isn't that horrible or the starters (including Love) are terrible defenders...

It's also worth noting that all the Wolves starters played 30+ mpg (lead by Love with 36+), where the bench players all played 20mpg or less.

Well first off, Minnesota was a weird team last year. If you look at SRS (which is generally a good indicator of how good a team is), Minnesota was a top 10 team. They had a better point differential than teams like Dallas, Memphis, and Phoenix. However they were really unlucky in close games (like, all-time levels of unlucky) and lost a bunch of games they should've won. Sure, part of this can be attributed to Love, but it'd be dumb to just dump all of the blame on him. He was the biggest reason they were even in the game in the first place. Imagine a player carrying a team for 40 minutes of the game, and then in the last 5 minutes he wears down and plays below his standards. He shouldn't get a complete free pass, but he shouldn't be labeled some choking loser either. If he didn't play so well in the first 3 quarters, his team wouldn't have even been in position to win. You can win games in the 2nd or 3rd quarter. We saw it in the Finals...the Spurs huge 3rd quarter in Game 5 was what won them that game.

Minnesota's starting unit had a DRTG of 105, which would've been good for 10th in the league in 2014. They were a solid defensive unit. The bench was decent as well defensively, but they were absolutely horrible on offense once Love and Rubio went out. As those numbers show, the offense fell apart when the starters went to the bench.

[ElNono]

Exactly. However, how many effective perimeter playing Power Forwards have been around since Dirk first came in?

Not sure. Bosh also changed his game a bit to be a stretch guy too... but he has the complete package inside and he's just a much smarter player/defender.

[SpursFan86]

Okay, let's compare Love's numbers to another all-time great offensive big who scored a lot from the perimeter: Dirk

Dirk's career TS% = 58.2, career eFG% = 51.4%

And why are you acting like Love never goes in the post? He's not some spot-up shooter that just sits at the 3-point line all game. He has a solid post game and definitely draws double teams regularly. He's not Hakeem or Kareem (no shit), but you're really selling him short here.

[ElNono]

Well first off, Minnesota was a weird team last year. If you look at SRS (which is generally a good indicator of how good a team is), Minnesota was a top 10 team. They had a better point differential than teams like Dallas, Memphis, and Phoenix. However they were really unlucky in close games (like, all-time levels of unlucky) and lost a bunch of games they should've won. Sure, part of this can be attributed to Love, but it'd be dumb to just dump all of the blame on him. He was the biggest reason they were even in the game in the first place. Imagine a player carrying a team for 40 minutes of the game, and then in the last 5 minutes he wears down and plays below his standards. He shouldn't get a complete free pass, but he shouldn't be labeled some choking loser either. If he didn't play so well in the first 3 quarters, his team wouldn't have even been in position to win. You can win games in the 2nd or 3rd quarter. We saw it in the Finals...the Spurs huge 3rd quarter in Game 5 was what won them that game.

Minnesota's starting unit had a DRTG of 105, which would've been good for 10th in the league in 2014. They were a solid defensive unit. The bench was decent as well defensively, but they were absolutely horrible on offense once Love and Rubio went out. As those numbers show, the offense fell apart when the starters went to the bench.

But the starters did play the bulk of the minutes... like I pointed out, no starter averaged under 30mpg. The bench on the other hand, the top minute getter was barely over 20 mpg (20.7 IIRC, don't have the numbers in front of me anymore).
They were actually very top heavy. Love played almost twice as many minutes as Barea, the 2nd top minute getter off the bench.

I would agree it's weird. That's why I said it's easy to stat pad on bad teams, but stat pad on an average team and still miss the playoffs? Weird.

[SpursFan86]

But the starters did play the bulk of the minutes... like I pointed out, no starter averaged under 30mpg. The bench on the other hand, the top minute getter was barely over 20 mpg (20.7 IIRC, don't have the numbers in front of me anymore).
They were actually very top heavy. Love played almost twice as many minutes as Barea, the 2nd top minute getter off the bench.

I think you underestimate how quickly a lead can fall apart when a new unit comes in. We've (well, most of us) been watching the Spurs all year long. How many times would the bench come in and completely change the game around by going on an offensive explosion in a matter of just 4-5 minutes? In the Portland series, we'd always blow games open in the early 2nd quarter because Portland would send out their shitty-ass bench and get demolished...and that was with them playing shortened playoff rotations. It doesn't take long for a basketball game to be won or lost. One second it's a tie game and then 2 minutes later you're down by 10 and having to dig yourself out of a hole for the rest of the game.

Just imagine the opposite of our bench. Instead of Minnesota's bench coming in and providing an offensive spark, they come in and the offense goes to shit. They have a 3-4 minute drought, and suddenly Minnesota's lead is gone or what was once a tied game is now a 10 point deficit.

[djohn2oo8]

Okay, let's compare Love's numbers to another all-time great offensive big who scored a lot from the perimeter: Dirk

Dirk's career TS% = 58.2, career eFG% = 51.4%

And why are you acting like Love never goes in the post? He's not some spot-up shooter that just sits at the 3-point line all game. He has a solid post game and definitely draws double teams regularly. He's not Hakeem or Kareem (no shit), but you're really selling him short here.

Love's career

TS% = 56.6% efg%= 49.4%

Also, Dirk never averaged more than 4.9 3PA per game. Love averaged 8.9 alone last year, and was only a 37% shooter. That is not conducive to winning. He would need a defensive big next to him to be effective, and that is not top 10 worthy. Also, Love does not play in the post enough to be effective.

[ElNono]

I think you underestimate how quickly a lead can fall apart when a new unit comes in. We've (well, most of us) been watching the Spurs all year long. How many times would the bench come in and completely change the game around by going on an offensive explosion in a matter of just 4-5 minutes? In the Portland series, we'd always blow games open in the early 2nd quarter because Portland would send out their shitty-ass bench and get demolished...and that was with them playing shortened playoff rotations. It doesn't take long for a basketball game to be won or lost. One second it's a tie game and then 2 minutes later you're down by 10 and having to dig yourself out of a hole for the rest of the game.

Just imagine the opposite of our bench. Instead of Minnesota's bench coming in and providing an offensive spark, they come in and the offense goes to shit. They have a 3-4 minute drought, and suddenly Minnesota's lead is gone or what was once a tied game is now a 10 point deficit.

Except the bench defensive rating is just as good as the starters (top 10 you said?). That's why it doesn't add up. I mean, love averaged 36 mpg... that's only 12 minutes the cover for.

[SpursFan86]

Love's career

TS% = 56.6% efg%= 49.4%

Also, Dirk never averaged more than 4.9 3PA per game. Love averaged 8.9 alone last year, and was only a 37% shooter. That is not conducive to winning. He would need a defensive big next to him to be effective, and that is not top 10 worthy. Also, Love does not play in the post enough to be effective.

Compare Love's numbers last year to Dirk's best year...they're not that far off. And Dirk was an MVP candidate and top 20 player of all-time. I'm not saying Love is better or as good as Dirk either...just pointing out that a 59 TS% and 52 eFG% is nowhere close to being horrendous.

Anyways, post your top 10 players. I'm truly curious to see the list. I'd imagine they're all flawless players considering how harshly you're judging Love.

[ElNono]

Love's career

TS% = 56.6% efg%= 49.4%

Also, Dirk never averaged more than 4.9 3PA per game. Love averaged 8.9 alone last year, and was only a 37% shooter. That is not conducive to winning. He would need a defensive big next to him to be effective, and that is not top 10 worthy. Also, Love does not play in the post enough to be effective.

crofl

[SpursFan86]

Except the bench defensive rating is just as good as the starters (top 10 you said?). That's why it doesn't add up. I mean, love averaged 36 mpg... that's only 12 minutes the cover for.

I already said that the bench was decent defensively. Horrible offense + average defense = still a horrible bench.

And let's assume Love's typical minute distribution goes something like:

1st: 11 minutes
2nd: 7 minutes
3rd: 11 minutes
4th: 7 minutes

That would mean the bench is likely in for ~6 minutes at a time for two separate intervals. That's plenty of time to piss away a lead and make your team face a hefty deficit.

[SpursFan86]

crofl

Those aren't even the right numbers lol. Love averaged 6.6 3PA last year. Dirk's career high is 4.9. So Love took what, one a half more 3s per game than Dirk? Don't see the huge deal.

And lol at "only a 37% shooter"...is that supposed to be bad now? Harden shot 36.6 % from 3 last year.

[ElNono]

I already said that the bench was decent defensively. Horrible offense + average defense = still a horrible bench.

And let's assume Love's typical minute distribution goes something like:

1st: 11 minutes
2nd: 7 minutes
3rd: 11 minutes
4th: 7 minutes

That would mean the bench is likely in for ~6 minutes at a time for two separate intervals. That's plenty of time to piss away a lead and make your team face a hefty deficit.

It just doesn't add up. If the bench is a "top 10 defense", then sucking on offense for 12 out of 48 minutes, shouldn't put you in a huge hole.

What was the differential in your stat? 10pts per 100 possession?


Those aren't even the right numbers lol. Love averaged 6.6 3PA last year. Dirk's career high is 4.9. So Love took what, one a half more 3s per game than Dirk? Don't see the huge deal.

And lol at "only a 37% shooter"...is that supposed to be bad now? Harden shot 36.6 % from 3 last year.

I just can't even put Love and Dirk in the same conversation, tbh... Dirk is a guy that was criticized a lot for the same things Love is, but Dirk has also always been a go-to guy, and he never shied away from it, leading his team to two NBA Finals and winning one.

Love just isn't anywhere near that tier right now.

[Arcadian]

Yeah, as much as people try to do it, you cannot easily pigeonhole Love as a "perimeter player" or a "traditional power forward" or anything else. He's a good all-around player, but his skillset defies typical categorization.

[Chinook]

1) DRTG is a horrible measure of defensive ability. It's heavily based on team defense + blocks/steals. Parker was ranked higher than Bowen several times according to DRTG IIRC, and their career averages are very similar (Parker = 104, Bowen = 102)...no one in their right mind would say Parker was even remotely close to Bowen defensively though.

2) Lmao at 59.1 TS% and 52.4 eFG% being "horrendous" for a big man. That's flat-out wrong. Let's look at some all-time great offensive bigs and their career averages:

Kareem - 59.2 TS% and 55.9 eFG%

Karl Malone - 57.7 TS% and 51.8 eFG%

Hakeem - 55.3 TS% and 51.3 eFG%

3) Love's clutch stats are definitely a point of concern, but aren't nearly a big enough reason to knock him down from not even being a top 10 player in the league. People go overboard with the whole "clutchness" cliche.

1) I hate DRtg more than most, but you're misinterpreting it a bit. It also heavily includes defensive rebounds. That's why it's slanted strongly toward bigs. For Love to have a horrible DRtg in clutch situations is frankly disturbing, because his rebounds combined with Minny's team D should have given him an elite score like it did with Boozer recently. DRtg sucks because it can't pick out good man-defenders who don't make a ton of splash plays, but it can pick out horrible defensive bigs.

2) I like the idea of TS%, but I think onky has meaning when combined with USG%. That's just a general critique that has little to do with Love.

3) Eh, these lists are subjective as hell, and people can use a lot of different factors to rank players. I think a player being abysmal in the clutch is a hella big deal. You can argue that Minny makes the dance last year if Love is even average in those situations.

[spurraider21]

EFG% and TS% give bonus points for 3 pointers (for obvious reasons) without also taking into consideration that a long miss (as all 3 pointers are) lead to easier transition buckets for the other end.

a 35% three point shooter/specialist isn't considered a good one, but in a vacuum would have a higher EFG% or TS% than a big man who shoots 50% from 2

[TDMVPDPOY]

Can't believe people are criticizing the efficiency of a player with a 59% TS, tbh:lol..

It's not like he doesn't get inside the paint, too, the nigga is the best rebounder in the NBA, he isn't Bargnani..

fck u on about, not playing defense and fighting own team mates to pad rebounds...thats what kg use to do on the wolves, is he not that confident his team mates cant go grab a rebound, make a basket or make a assists pass?

dude puts up meaningless stats, a big who loves to shoot 3s instead of scoring inside, his the only big who has more 3pt fga then any big in the league; he makes guys like antoine walker a scrub at chucking 3s

[Sec24Row7]

Compare Love's numbers last year to Dirk's best year...they're not that far off. And Dirk was an MVP candidate and top 20 player of all-time. I'm not saying Love is better or as good as Dirk either...just pointing out that a 59 TS% and 52 eFG% is nowhere close to being horrendous.

Anyways, post your top 10 players. I'm truly curious to see the list. I'd imagine they're all flawless players considering how harshly you're judging Love.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Thread]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Yet another piss pot chickenshit from upstairs. This one an original piss pot chickenshit. I spit on you.

[Sec24Row7]

Yet another piss pot chickenshit from upstairs. This one an original piss pot chickenshit. I spit on you.

The funny thing is… Your post is actually more intelligent and better thought out than the one that said Dirk is a top 20 player of all time… So… Kudos.

[Thread]

The funny thing is… Your post is actually more intelligent and better thought out than the one that said Dirk is a top 20 player of all time… So… Kudos.

Packin' the paint--the lot of ya's--up 3.

lmfao!!!

[djohn2oo8]

EFG% and TS% give bonus points for 3 pointers (for obvious reasons) without also taking into consideration that a long miss (as all 3 pointers are) lead to easier transition buckets for the other end.

a 35% three point shooter/specialist isn't considered a good one, but in a vacuum would have a higher EFG% or TS% than a big man who shoots 50% from 2

This.

[djohn2oo8]

Here are the 25 players with the most win shares in their first six seasons not to reach the postseason (those who spent that entire time with one team in green):

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/image_thumb18.png?w=590&h=321

[Sec24Row7]

Here are the 25 players with the most win shares in their first six seasons not to reach the postseason (those who spent that entire time with one team in green):

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/image_thumb18.png?w=590&h=321


Man!

Look at all the Hall of Famers on that list!

Calling someone top 10 in the league who has never made the playoffs is just silly…

A team has never played him more than 2 times in a row… and has never had a chance or reason to build a strategy to contain him.

It's too soon.

[Killakobe81]

Love is absolutely a top 10 player. Lmfao at people saying guys like Duncan and Parker are better than him (this coming from a Spurs fan). Don't even get me started with guys like John Wall and Kyrie Irving...that's just flat-out stupid. Are we really going to sit here and lambast Love for his defense and then turn around and say guys like Parker, Irving, and Harden are better than him? :lol

BTW, where does this myth that Love is a horrible defender come from? Minnesota had a top 10 defense for most of the year and ended up 12th defensively. Love ranked well in DRPM as well. He's an average defender...not some huge defensive liability like some of y'all are making him out to be. Being a bad rim protector =/= being a bad defender overall. Bosh isn't a great rim protector either but he's one of the best PnR defenders in the league and overall he's a very good defender. Love played nearly 40% of his minutes last season at center, which isn't a good way to utilize him. Play him at PF and pair him up with a solid rim protector and he'll be just fine defensively.

Let's look at how Minnesota played with Love on/off the court:

With Love on the court: ORTG = 111.6, DRTG = 106.0, Net RTG = +5.6
With Love off the court: ORTG = 101.1, DRTG = 106.5, Net RTG = -5.3

So with him on the court, Minnesota clearly outplayed their opponents. When he went to the bench, they'd fall apart offensively and give up leads.

Fuck outta here with this primitive logic of "Putting up good stats on a bad team = statpadder who doesn't have a real impact". KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from 2005-2007. Only an idiot would say he wasn't a top player in the league who had a monstrous impact during that span.

Excellent post you used stats to back up a valid point. Jeez again with the stats obsession for some folks on here ... Over reliance on stats or simply looking at wins/losses are both foolish ways to determine Love's rank. You need to look at both and the "eye test". Some great points have been brought up on BOTH sides of the fence. But it's foolish to dismiss Love as an underrated stats padder when you look at his numbers and watch him play. Does he have his faults? Absolutely. But as posted above he is at least a mediocre or average defender and far from atrocious. Pau who so many love on here (no pun intended) was much worse on defense the past 4 years. Dirk after some improvement in that era (when he had quality defensive team-mates) has regressed as well. And you cant tell me Boozer is a much better defender than Love so i call bullshit on drating ..Also the Bulls version of Rodamn (if you watch closely) did the same thing Lobve is accused of ... leaving some of his defensive responsibilities early to position for rebounds ... but because he had MJ, Pipp and even Harper on defense to rotate and recover quickly...it did not hurt the team much if he failed to secure the board. And Rodman was considered the best defender of his generation (the Pistons version most definitely was, I think Spurs/Bulls version was overrated tbh)

Back to Kevin. I have seen Love play since college and lo and behold when he had Westbrook, Collison, Farmar etc as team-mates he led his team to success. And it's not like Howland is John wooden either. Love securing boards and making outlet passes to Kyrie and Lebron will be amazing. I had kind of hoped Wiggins would stay and they could pawn off Waiter/Bennett/Thompson plus picks. Love making those passes to Irving, James AND Wiggins would be amazing. Wiggins is overrated but he can run and jump and Love is a good passer in the half-court but might be the best outlet passer since Walton. His range will open up driving lanes for Kyrie, Waiters and Lebron and adding one of the best SF rebounders to Love and Verejao if he stays healthy and Cavs should corral most loose balls. I would think spur fans who value team play would appreciate Love more than most general NBA fans ...I wonder if some of the hate is fear?

Despite my desire to see Lebron mentor Wiggins ...this trade absolutely makes sense and puts Cavs in favored status to win a title. I am not saying they are better than the Spurs ... but their path to a title is certainly much easier. Only huge questions for Cavs:

1. Rim protection ... but the Heat won two titles with less than stellar rim defenders/Anchors
2. this new coach ...I have heard great things and Spo won as an unproven coach doesnt hurt that he has Lebron (like Spo)
3. Can Kyrie thrive with two players that are better than him orchestrating the offense in key situations and can he thrive off the ball?
4. If Verejao is hurt not only due they lose what little rim rim protection they had but also their best pnr defensive big ...and he has not been healthy the past 3 years.
5. How much will this team rely on Lebron? No excuses, but you could see he was worn down last June. Yes his team-mates failed him worse but Lebron was not the consistent beast he had been the previous two Finals (mostly). Even with Love and Kyrie relying on Lebron has been a crutch for Spo, Mike Brown etc.

I wont become a Cavs fan but having two of the best passing forwards on one team should be exciting to watch for any true hoops fan.

[djohn2oo8]

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201567&zone-mode=basic

crofl look at that fucking shot chart

[djohn2oo8]

These Love defenders are starting to get tiresome. What points of the game does Love get his stats? Are they primarily in the 1-3 quarters or in the 4th?

[TDMVPDPOY]

These Love defenders are starting to get tiresome. What points of the game does Love get his stats? Are they primarily in the 1-3 quarters or in the 4th?

they are the same wankers who defend enrique...

their obsession with selfish pricks who pad empty stats

[djohn2oo8]

Also, most great rebounders are involved with the defensive play that results in missed shot or blocked shot. They help get the stop, then they secure the defensive rebound. This is true for players like Andrew Bogut, KG, Dwight etc... but not Kevin Love. He just gets the board, he didn't really do much to help get the stop.

[SpursFan86]

Players I'd take over Dirk:

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Wilt
Bird
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem
David Robinson
Oscar Robertson
Dr. J
Karl Malone
KG

That's 16 right there. Name me 9 more to make it 25...if him being top 20 is so absurd, then I'm guessing you guys don't even have him in the top 25.

I could see an argument for Barkley, but I personally wouldn't take Barkley over Dirk.

edit: just thought of two more people that have arguments over Dirk...Jerry West and Moses Malone. I think Moses is overrated as hell though.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Players I'd take over Dirk:

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Wilt
Bird
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem
David Robinson
Oscar Robertson
Dr. J
Karl Malone
KG

That's 16 right there. Name me 9 more to make it 25...if him being top 20 is so absurd, then I'm guessing you guys don't even have him in the top 25.

I could see an argument for Barkley, but I personally wouldn't take Barkley over Dirk.

u got kg up there who has a losing record h2h against dirk RS+PLAYOFFS...

[SpursFan86]

Also, most great rebounders are involved with the defensive play that results in missed shot or blocked shot. They help get the stop, then they secure the defensive rebound. This is true for players like Andrew Bogut, KG, Dwight etc... but not Kevin Love. He just gets the board, he didn't really do much to help get the stop.

Serious question: how many Timberwolves games did you watch last year? Be honest. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I watched every damn game, but I did catch quite a few and I never saw anything that led me to believe Love is a horrible defender who doesn't even get involved defensively aside from when it comes time to rebound.

And lmao @ saying we're the same ones who defend Parker. Parker sucked dick for the majority of the season last year. He was legitimately great in 2013, but in 2014 he was nowhere close to being a top 10 player in the league.

[SpursFan86]

u got kg up there who has a losing record h2h against dirk RS+PLAYOFFS...

Basketball is a team sport. KG played on shitty teams for what, 11 or 12 years in Minnesota?

Kobe has a winning record against Duncan in the playoffs and the Lakers had the Spurs' number from '01-04...you could interpret that as Kobe > Duncan, or you could be smart and realize Kobe played alongside one of the most dominant players of all-time in their absolute prime, while Duncan's best player was a well-past-his-prime David Robinson.

[djohn2oo8]

http://i.imgur.com/JYOOZeW.png

lol

[djohn2oo8]

Serious question: how many Timberwolves games did you watch last year? Be honest. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I watched every damn game, but I did catch quite a few and I never saw anything that led me to believe Love is a horrible defender who doesn't even get involved defensively aside from when it comes time to rebound.

And lmao @ saying we're the same ones who defend Parker. Parker sucked dick for the majority of the season last year. He was legitimately great in 2013, but in 2014 he was nowhere close to being a top 10 player in the league.

Love has never even finished ONE season above .500 with a winning record. That must be because he does so much defensively?

[TDMVPDPOY]

Basketball is a team sport. KG played on shitty teams for what, 11 or 12 years in Minnesota?

Kobe has a winning record against Duncan in the playoffs and the Lakers had the Spurs' number from '01-04...you could interpret that as Kobe > Duncan, or you could be smart and realize Kobe played alongside one of the most dominant players of all-time in their absolute prime, while Duncan's best player was a well-past-his-prime David Robinson.

bullshit, when it matter the most which was during their prime, it was kg job to defend best player or anyone playing at his position..therefore dirk was his main opponent and assignment, and dirk came out on top with or without good team

dont play that shitty team mates card with KG when we already heard all the excuses with this clown down to his max contract that limited what the FO could do to build around him

u bring up duncan vs kobe during lakers 3peat +02/03+03/04 season make it 5 seasons...did kobe ever defended or duncan defended each other? it was not their jobs to defend each other when they play different positions, shaq was duncan main rival, not kirby, never mention robin in any super hero discussions man

[djohn2oo8]

Excellent post you used stats to back up a valid point. Jeez again with the stats obsession for some folks on here ... Over reliance on stats or simply looking at wins/losses are both foolish ways to determine Love's rank. You need to look at both and the "eye test". Some great points have been brought up on BOTH sides of the fence. But it's foolish to dismiss Love as an underrated stats padder when you look at his numbers and watch him play. Does he have his faults? Absolutely. But as posted above he is at least a mediocre or average defender and far from atrocious. Pau who so many love on here (no pun intended) was much worse on defense the past 4 years. Dirk after some improvement in that era (when he had quality defensive team-mates) has regressed as well. And you cant tell me Boozer is a much better defender than Love so i call bullshit on drating ..Also the Bulls version of Rodamn (if you watch closely) did the same thing Lobve is accused of ... leaving some of his defensive responsibilities early to position for rebounds ... but because he had MJ, Pipp and even Harper on defense to rotate and recover quickly...it did not hurt the team much if he failed to secure the board. And Rodman was considered the best defender of his generation (the Pistons version most definitely was, I think Spurs/Bulls version was overrated tbh)

Back to Kevin. I have seen Love play since college and lo and behold when he had Westbrook, Collison, Farmar etc as team-mates he led his team to success. And it's not like Howland is John wooden either. Love securing boards and making outlet passes to Kyrie and Lebron will be amazing. I had kind of hoped Wiggins would stay and they could pawn off Waiter/Bennett/Thompson plus picks. Love making those passes to Irving, James AND Wiggins would be amazing. Wiggins is overrated but he can run and jump and Love is a good passer in the half-court but might be the best outlet passer since Walton. His range will open up driving lanes for Kyrie, Waiters and Lebron and adding one of the best SF rebounders to Love and Verejao if he stays healthy and Cavs should corral most loose balls. I would think spur fans who value team play would appreciate Love more than most general NBA fans ...I wonder if some of the hate is fear?

Despite my desire to see Lebron mentor Wiggins ...this trade absolutely makes sense and puts Cavs in favored status to win a title. I am not saying they are better than the Spurs ... but their path to a title is certainly much easier. Only huge questions for Cavs:

1. Rim protection ... but the Heat won two titles with less than stellar rim defenders/Anchors
2. this new coach ...I have heard great things and Spo won as an unproven coach doesnt hurt that he has Lebron (like Spo)
3. Can Kyrie thrive with two players that are better than him orchestrating the offense in key situations and can he thrive off the ball?
4. If Verejao is hurt not only due they lose what little rim rim protection they had but also their best pnr defensive big ...and he has not been healthy the past 3 years.
5. How much will this team rely on Lebron? No excuses, but you could see he was worn down last June. Yes his team-mates failed him worse but Lebron was not the consistent beast he had been the previous two Finals (mostly). Even with Love and Kyrie relying on Lebron has been a crutch for Spo, Mike Brown etc.

I wont become a Cavs fan but having two of the best passing forwards on one team should be exciting to watch for any true hoops fan.
Pau was actually a defensive anchor at one point in his career. Love will never be, not a good comparison.

[SpursFan86]

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201935

Harden: 4 green zones (50% on 134 shots), 7 yellow zones (46.2% on 1004 shots), 3 red zones (27.9% on 68 shots)

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201567

Love: 3 green zones (50% on 82 shots), 10 yellow zones (46.1% on 1304 shots), 1 red zone (30% on 30 shots)

[SpursFan86]

bullshit, when it matter the most which was during their prime, it was kg job to defend best player or anyone playing at his position..therefore dirk was his main opponent and assignment, and dirk came out on top with or without good team

They played ONE playoff series against each other lol. Why the fuck are we using a 3 game sample size to determine who the better player is?

As for the regular season, it's 19-17 in favor of Dirk. Hardly a huge advantage. Let's look to see how they performed in those games:

KG - 22.3 ppg (52% shooting), 11.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.2 bpg

Dirk - 22.9 ppg (46.4% shooting), 8.2 rpg, 2.1 apg, .6 spg, .8 bpg

Yeah, Dirk sure owned KG.

[djohn2oo8]

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201935

Harden: 4 green zones (50% on 134 shots), 7 yellow zones (46.2% on 1004 shots), 3 red zones (27.9% on 68 shots)

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201567

Love: 3 green zones (50% on 82 shots), 10 yellow zones (46.1% on 1304 shots), 1 red zone (30% on 30 shots)

Love's shot chart is terrible for a Power Forward.

[Killakobe81]

Pau was actually a defensive anchor at one point in his career. Love will never be, not a good comparison.

I said the past 4 years. I would say right now yes, Pau at his peak is better than Love. Pau was much better on defense at one point but defensive anchor? YEs he was good at altering shots, was also a good but not great rim protector and a very good but not great rebounder. When motivated he could also contest shots in pnr but was never a great pnr defender. Anchor seems a bit strong to me ...But I love pau and dont want to sound as though I am bashing the guy.

[Killakobe81]

Love's shot chart is terrible for a Power Forward.

Love as established earlier is not a traditional PF ... so what does that matter?

[SpursFan86]

Love has never even finished ONE season above .500 with a winning record. That must be because he does so much defensively?

1) This might sound crazy, but some players...wait for it...improve as they get older. No one was proclaiming Love a top 10 player up until last year.

2) Do you remember how fucking horrible those Minnesota teams were? They were literally starting Darko Milicic, Luke Ridnour, Wesley Johnson and Michael Beasley one year :lol This past year was the first year Love had anything that even remotely resembles a decent supporting cast (and as I've already pointed out, it was really just the starters). KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from '05-07 and had a losing record during that span...I guess he wasn't doing enough defensively during those years :rolleyes

[djohn2oo8]

Love as established earlier is not a traditional PF ... so what does that matter?

Wait what? He doesn't even have a midrange game. He's only good for 3's and putbacks. Dirk isn't a traditional PF either, yet he has a MUCH better shot chart and better shot selections than Love.

http://i.imgur.com/2T5j4Pz.png

[djohn2oo8]

1) This might sound crazy, but some players...wait for it...improve as they get older. No one was proclaiming Love a top 10 player up until last year.

2) Do you remember how fucking horrible those Minnesota teams were? They were literally starting Darko Milicic, Luke Ridnour, Wesley Johnson and Michael Beasley one year :lol This past year was the first year Love had anything that even remotely resembles a decent supporting cast (and as I've already pointed out, it was really just the starters). KG missed the playoffs 3 years in a row from '05-07 and had a losing record during that span...I guess he wasn't doing enough defensively during those years :rolleyes

You are completely missing the point yet again. Love has never had THAT Impact to be able to carry his teammates in that way. Garnett made the playoffs in his second year, and finished above .500 in his third. He's a future HOF, don't compare the two. Oh and if this is the first year he had a decent supporting cast, he still finished without a winning record. After 6 seasons, That is not top 10 worthy.

[SpursFan86]

I'm bringing up KG to show that a player can have a great impact and still not have team success.

KG's team missed the playoffs 3 years straight. Was that a result of KG not being good enough, or him not being surrounded by enough talent?

Obviously Love is nowhere near KG's level. That doesn't mean you can't draw parallels between their situations. If a player as amazing as KG can miss the playoffs 3 years in a row, why is it so crazy to call Love a top 10 player in the current league despite his team missing the playoffs?

And I'm still waiting for your top 10 list.

[djohn2oo8]

I'm bringing up KG to show that a player can have a great impact and still not have team success.

KG's team missed the playoffs 3 years straight. Was that a result of KG not being good enough, or him not being surrounded by enough talent?

Obviously Love is nowhere near KG's level. That doesn't mean you can't draw parallels between their situations. If a player as amazing as KG can miss the playoffs 3 years in a row, why is it so crazy to call Love a top 10 player in the current league despite his team missing the playoffs?

And I'm still waiting for your top 10 list.

KG was proven and had done it before that time period that he could carry a team. Love hasn't because he is incapable.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Love's shot chart is terrible for a Power Forward.
It has been established Love is not a traditional PF. And 59% TS is not horrendous.

[djohn2oo8]

It has been established Love is not a traditional PF. And 59% TS is not horrendous.

30% shooting inside the arc is terrible. That doesn't excuse him because he's not a traditional PF. He is still 7 fucking feet tall.

[StrengthAndHonor]

KG was proven and had done it before that time period that he could carry a team. Love hasn't because he is incapable.
Love has missed a good amount of games for the past 3 seasons. You can't fully asses his ability to carry a team when he misses a good portion of it . Last year, when finally healthy, Wolves lost Pekovic their second most valuable player for about 28 games.

[skut_farkus]

Love :lol

[Killakobe81]

30% shooting inside the arc is terrible. That doesn't excuse him because he's not a traditional PF. He is still 7 fucking feet tall.

Wait what? Love was not even a legit 6 foot 9 (IIRC) coming out of UCLA did he grow 4 inches in Minny?

[StrengthAndHonor]

30% shooting inside the arc is terrible. That doesn't excuse him because he's not a traditional PF. He is still 7 fucking feet tall.
I'm sorry to say, you clearly haven't seen him play. To say he's only good on putbacks and 3 pointers is being clueless.

[StrengthAndHonor]

And Love is not 7 feet tall. Wow at all this wrong information being thrown out here:lol

[Killakobe81]

PF: Kevin Love (“6-10”): He measured at 6' 7.75," but that isn’t what makes Kevin Love’s height deception so dastardly. It’s that K-Love is photographed at the height level of a “6-8” Derrick Williams.

Story here:http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/34789/kevin-love-and-height-liars-in-shoes

[Sec24Row7]

Players I'd take over Dirk:

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Wilt
Bird
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem
David Robinson
Oscar Robertson
Dr. J
Karl Malone
KG

That's 16 right there. Name me 9 more to make it 25...if him being top 20 is so absurd, then I'm guessing you guys don't even have him in the top 25.

I could see an argument for Barkley, but I personally wouldn't take Barkley over Dirk.

edit: just thought of two more people that have arguments over Dirk...Jerry West and Moses Malone. I think Moses is overrated as hell though.

So you have 18… I'll throw barkley in there… 19

Pippen
George Gervin
Dwyane Wade
Dominique Wilkins
Isiah Thomas
Clyde Drexler
J Kidd
Kevin McHale

and I'll throw Steve Nash's two MVP's in there just to troll you.

[StrengthAndHonor]

PF: Kevin Love (“6-10”): He measured at 6' 7.75," but that isn’t what makes Kevin Love’s height deception so dastardly. It’s that K-Love is photographed at the height level of a “6-8” Derrick Williams.

Story here:http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/34789/kevin-love-and-height-liars-in-shoes
Good find. I was always skeptical with Love being 6'10, 6'8 is more like it.

[Chinook]

Players I'd take over Dirk:

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Wilt
Bird
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem
David Robinson
Oscar Robertson
Dr. J
Karl Malone
KG

That's 16 right there. Name me 9 more to make it 25...if him being top 20 is so absurd, then I'm guessing you guys don't even have him in the top 25.

I could see an argument for Barkley, but I personally wouldn't take Barkley over Dirk.

edit: just thought of two more people that have arguments over Dirk...Jerry West and Moses Malone. I think Moses is overrated as hell though.

Most of us know Dirk's a top-20 player of all time. You don't have to worry about that.

[SpursFan86]

Most of us know Dirk's a top-20 player of all time. You don't have to worry about that.

Yeah, I think I'll pass on responding to the guy who said Dominique Wilkins and Isiah Thomas were better than Dirk.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if kg is so great....how come he only has 1 30pt game all his career in the playoffs?

[Brazil]

if kg is so great....how come he only has 1 30pt game all his career in the playoffs?

since when it is a criteria ? I have to assume parker is great he had 3 30 pts games only this PO :lol

[Kidd K]

You using sarcasm to avoid actually responding with any sort of substance? Those stats illustrate how shitty their bench was. Give Minnesota a competent bench, and they're a 50 win team that makes the playoffs. Suddenly half of these criticisms about Love go away, despite him being the exact same damn player. Funny how that works.

BTW, let's look at Anthony Davis's on/off numbers...since he's the best player on a non-playoff team, we should see numbers similar to the ones we saw with Love, right?

With Davis on the court: Net RTG = -1.8
With Davis on the court: Net RTG = -3.7

No shit teams are typically going to play better with their starters. But the gap usually isn't near as big as the gap between Minnesota's starters and their bench. It's amazing I'm having to explain the importance of having a competent bench when we just watched the Spurs do what they did in 2014.

What is Love supposed to do? When he's on the court, his team plays great and noticeably outplays their opponents. When he's not on the court, they fall apart. I'm not arguing Love is the sole reason this is the case, but are you really going to sit here and argue that Rubio or Corey Brewer are the main reasons for Minnesota having a top 10 offense?

I already made my point. Bad teams have less good players, so the dropoff from starter to bench is always bigger. What more is there to even say? It wasn't a good, telling stat for that situation. You only compared one team's starting unit to that same team's bench. 100 times out of 100 there's going to be a dropoff. No coach is going to have his best players come off the bench while starting his backups all year. He would get fired.

Since you brought up Davis, k let's look at who starts for each team, aka who they're playing with.

Love: Ricky Rubio, Nikola Pekovic, Kevin Martin and Corey Brewer. 3/4 are pretty good players and Brewer isn't terrible either.

Davis: Eric Gordon, Al Farouq Aminu, and oh no one else even started more than 42 games for them. And the 42 was fuckin Brian Roberts :lol

Other shitty Pelicans starters include scrubs like Alexis Ajinca (30 starts), Greg Steimsma (20 starts), and Jason Smith (27 starts). Players most fans have probably never heard of. . .since they're end of the bench on sub .300 team caliber players. That's who Davis has surrounding him. Scrubs.

Compare and contrast. Wolves: Loaded starting unit, weak bench. Pelicans: Shitty overall and riddled with injuries. It should not surprise you the Wolves have better stats on their starting unit when it was fairly loaded.

[Kidd K]

Yeah, I think I'll pass on responding to the guy who said Dominique Wilkins and Isiah Thomas were better than Dirk.

Isiah Thomas was pretty fuckin good dude. He was averaging 21/4/11 with 2 1/2 steals in his prime. Even had a 14 APG season once.

[Sec24Row7]

Isiah Thomas was pretty fuckin good dude. He was averaging 21/4/11 with 2 1/2 steals in his prime. Even had a 14 APG season once.

Dirk never had a 20/10 season.

Here are Nique's career stats…

Regular season[edit]
Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
1982–83 Atlanta 82 82 32.9 .493 .182 .682 5.8 1.6 1.0 .8 17.5
1983–84 Atlanta 81 81 36.6 .479 .000 .770 7.2 1.6 1.4 1.1 21.6
1984–85 Atlanta 81 81 37.3 .451 .309 .806 6.9 2.5 1.7 .7 27.4
1985–86 Atlanta 78 78 39.1 .468 .186 .818 7.8 2.6 1.8 .6 30.3
1986–87 Atlanta 79 79 37.6 .463 .292 .818 6.3 3.3 1.5 .6 29.0
1987–88 Atlanta 78 76 37.8 .464 .295 .826 6.4 2.9 1.3 .6 30.7
1988–89 Atlanta 80 80 37.5 .464 .276 .844 6.9 2.6 1.5 .7 26.2
1989–90 Atlanta 80 79 36.1 .484 .322 .807 6.5 2.5 1.6 .6 26.7
1990–91 Atlanta 81 81 38.0 .470 .341 .829 9.0 3.3 1.5 .8 25.9
1991–92 Atlanta 42 42 38.1 .464 .289 .835 7.0 3.8 1.2 .6 28.1
1992–93 Atlanta 71 70 37.3 .468 .380 .828 6.8 3.2 1.0 .4 29.9
1993–94 Atlanta 49 49 34.4 .432 .308 .854 6.2 2.3 1.3 .4 24.4
1993–94 Los Angeles 25 25 37.9 .453 .247 .835 7.0 2.2 1.2 .3 29.1
1994–95 Boston 77 64 31.5 .424 .388 .782 5.2 2.2 .8 .2 17.8
1996–97 San Antonio 63 26 30.9 .417 .293 .803 6.4 1.9 .6 .5 18.2
1998–99 Orlando 27 2 9.3 .379 .263 .690 2.6 .6 .1 .0 5.1
Career 1074 995 35.5 .461 .319 .811 6.7 2.5 1.3 .6 24.8


Here are Dirk's

Regular season[edit]
Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
1998–99 Dallas 47 24 20.4 .405 .206 .773 3.4 1.0 .6 .6 8.2
1999–00 Dallas 82 81 35.8 .461 .379 .830 6.5 2.5 .8 .8 17.5
2000–01 Dallas 82 82 38.1 .474 .387 .838 9.2 2.1 1.0 1.2 21.8
2001–02 Dallas 76 76 38.0 .477 .397 .853 9.9 2.4 1.1 1.0 23.4
2002–03 Dallas 80 80 39.0 .463 .379 .881 9.9 3.0 1.4 1.0 25.1
2003–04 Dallas 77 77 37.9 .462 .341 .877 8.7 2.7 1.2 1.4 21.8
2004–05 Dallas 78 78 38.7 .459 .399 .869 9.7 3.1 1.2 1.5 26.1
2005–06 Dallas 81 81 38.1 .480 .406 .901 9.0 2.8 .7 1.0 26.6
2006–07 Dallas 78 78 36.2 .502 .416 .904 8.9 3.4 .7 .8 24.6
2007–08 Dallas 77 77 36.0 .479 .359 .879 8.6 3.5 .7 .9 23.6
2008–09 Dallas 81 81 37.7 .479 .359 .890 8.4 2.4 .8 .8 25.9
2009–10 Dallas 81 80 37.5 .481 .421 .915 7.7 2.7 .9 1.0 25.0
2010–11† Dallas 73 73 34.3 .517 .393 .892 7.0 2.6 .5 .6 23.0
2011–12 Dallas 62 62 33.5 .457 .368 .896 6.8 2.2 .7 .5 21.6
2012–13 Dallas 53 47 31.3 .471 .414 .860 6.8 2.5 .7 .7 17.3
2013–14 Dallas 80 80 32.9 .497 .398 .899 6.2 2.7 .9 .6 21.7
Career 1188 1157 35.9 .476 .383 .879 8.1 2.6 .9 .9 22.5

Prime bolded.

It's not a lock… but it's arguable. I'd certainly rather watch prime Nique than prime Dirk. But… I just laughed at Dirk being top 20… Nique is like 25…

Bernard King was also definitely better than Dirk… but he got injured too early in his career.

Grant Hill is in the same boat.

[callo1]

Love is overrated.

[barbacoataco]

Regular season NBA is a joke. We'll see how good Love is when he actually plays in games that matter. Since he doesn't play defense that will be a problem for him.

[Jenks]

,,,

[lefty]

:lol Couldn't even get the eighth seed with Rubio, Pekovic, Dieng, etc.


Name 10 better,,,(Blake fraud 24 and 9 player,,,no rings)


:lmao Love doesn't even have a single playoff appearance to his name, but Blake's the fraud for not having a ring at age 25?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKto9xsrNQo

:lmao
:lmao

[Malik Hairston]

Love is a great player, tbh, being misused on Cleveland isn't an indictment on him..not everybody can be effective in the role of a 3rd banana, especially somebody with Love's playing style..

He would be a great 2nd option, though..

[RsxPiimp]

Love is a great player, tbh, being misused on Cleveland isn't an indictment on him..not everybody can be effective in the role of a 3rd banana, especially somebody with Love's playing style..

He would be a great 2nd option, though..

[lefty]

he isnt :lol


:lol Overrated 3 pt shooting phaggot, stat padding in garbage time in Minny when the other teams' top players were on the bench laughing

[Malik Hairston]

People seem to forget how bad Bosh looked offensively for a large part of his Miami tenure, where everybody thought he was a pussy and on the decline:lol..

He always played well when Wade or Lebron went out, though, and looks just as good as ever in Miami this year..

Playing the 3rd option is extremely difficult for players that are accustomed to having a large chunk of usage..

[Malik Hairston]

The stat-padding argument actually works against Love haters, in this case..

Why? Because his Minnesota team from last year was literally better than this current Cavs team:lol..not just my opinion, but based on the stats/facts..

[FkLA]

Rich mans David Lee tbh. Undersized+unathletic, no defense, limited post game, gets alot of his points from assisted jumpshots/3s or putbacks on offensive rebounds. Hes definitely a stat padder too. Whatever happened to Darko too, he looked like he was coming into his own last season.

Not sure why people ever fell for his stat whoring. He can still salvage his career if he is fine with being an elite stretch four that can rebound, no way is this dude anywhere near a #1 offensive option though. I'd make Kawhi my #1 offensive option before Love tbh.

[apalisoc_9]

Love is overrated as fuxk..But i don't think his game this year is an indication of what he can really do as a player..

I said in the other thread, He's just in a terrible situation right now..Same goes with guys like Melo

[ElNono]

lol there's not enough excuses for this fraud right now...

[spurraider21]

:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Dirk never had a 20/10 season.

Here are Nique's career stats…

Regular season[edit]
Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
1982–83 Atlanta 82 82 32.9 .493 .182 .682 5.8 1.6 1.0 .8 17.5
1983–84 Atlanta 81 81 36.6 .479 .000 .770 7.2 1.6 1.4 1.1 21.6
1984–85 Atlanta 81 81 37.3 .451 .309 .806 6.9 2.5 1.7 .7 27.4
1985–86 Atlanta 78 78 39.1 .468 .186 .818 7.8 2.6 1.8 .6 30.3
1986–87 Atlanta 79 79 37.6 .463 .292 .818 6.3 3.3 1.5 .6 29.0
1987–88 Atlanta 78 76 37.8 .464 .295 .826 6.4 2.9 1.3 .6 30.7
1988–89 Atlanta 80 80 37.5 .464 .276 .844 6.9 2.6 1.5 .7 26.2
1989–90 Atlanta 80 79 36.1 .484 .322 .807 6.5 2.5 1.6 .6 26.7
1990–91 Atlanta 81 81 38.0 .470 .341 .829 9.0 3.3 1.5 .8 25.9
1991–92 Atlanta 42 42 38.1 .464 .289 .835 7.0 3.8 1.2 .6 28.1
1992–93 Atlanta 71 70 37.3 .468 .380 .828 6.8 3.2 1.0 .4 29.9
1993–94 Atlanta 49 49 34.4 .432 .308 .854 6.2 2.3 1.3 .4 24.4
1993–94 Los Angeles 25 25 37.9 .453 .247 .835 7.0 2.2 1.2 .3 29.1
1994–95 Boston 77 64 31.5 .424 .388 .782 5.2 2.2 .8 .2 17.8
1996–97 San Antonio 63 26 30.9 .417 .293 .803 6.4 1.9 .6 .5 18.2
1998–99 Orlando 27 2 9.3 .379 .263 .690 2.6 .6 .1 .0 5.1
Career 1074 995 35.5 .461 .319 .811 6.7 2.5 1.3 .6 24.8


Here are Dirk's

Regular season[edit]
Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
1998–99 Dallas 47 24 20.4 .405 .206 .773 3.4 1.0 .6 .6 8.2
1999–00 Dallas 82 81 35.8 .461 .379 .830 6.5 2.5 .8 .8 17.5
2000–01 Dallas 82 82 38.1 .474 .387 .838 9.2 2.1 1.0 1.2 21.8
2001–02 Dallas 76 76 38.0 .477 .397 .853 9.9 2.4 1.1 1.0 23.4
2002–03 Dallas 80 80 39.0 .463 .379 .881 9.9 3.0 1.4 1.0 25.1
2003–04 Dallas 77 77 37.9 .462 .341 .877 8.7 2.7 1.2 1.4 21.8
2004–05 Dallas 78 78 38.7 .459 .399 .869 9.7 3.1 1.2 1.5 26.1
2005–06 Dallas 81 81 38.1 .480 .406 .901 9.0 2.8 .7 1.0 26.6
2006–07 Dallas 78 78 36.2 .502 .416 .904 8.9 3.4 .7 .8 24.6
2007–08 Dallas 77 77 36.0 .479 .359 .879 8.6 3.5 .7 .9 23.6
2008–09 Dallas 81 81 37.7 .479 .359 .890 8.4 2.4 .8 .8 25.9
2009–10 Dallas 81 80 37.5 .481 .421 .915 7.7 2.7 .9 1.0 25.0
2010–11† Dallas 73 73 34.3 .517 .393 .892 7.0 2.6 .5 .6 23.0
2011–12 Dallas 62 62 33.5 .457 .368 .896 6.8 2.2 .7 .5 21.6
2012–13 Dallas 53 47 31.3 .471 .414 .860 6.8 2.5 .7 .7 17.3
2013–14 Dallas 80 80 32.9 .497 .398 .899 6.2 2.7 .9 .6 21.7
Career 1188 1157 35.9 .476 .383 .879 8.1 2.6 .9 .9 22.5

Prime bolded.

It's not a lock… but it's arguable. I'd certainly rather watch prime Nique than prime Dirk. But… I just laughed at Dirk being top 20… Nique is like 25…

Bernard King was also definitely better than Dirk… but he got injured too early in his career.

Grant Hill is in the same boat.

I've always maintained that Dirk is Nique w/ one of the most fortuitous chips. If Lebron didn't get outscored by Barea in the 4th quarter, Dirk's career wouldn't be as glorified & would be ranked below Barkley/KG.

[spursistan]

:lol

[ambchang]

Nique never won MVP.

Dirk is one of the four players to be the second best PF ever. The delegation after Duncan is really razor thin. There aren't any other top 15 players who is a PG and Duncan is arguable top 5.

[UZER]

He ain't got no heart. Rj and love make great teammates.