A case for "Big O" to be best PG ever?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Most people give that award to Magic right off the bat, and there's a good logic behind that. Magic was one of the best ever, and was considered the best before MJ showed up. What a lot of people don't realize about Magic, was that coming in he wasn't 'the guy' like LeBron, Bird, etc.

But if there was a mirror image of Magic and his game, I'd have to say it was Oscar. Oscar averaged a triple double his first 6-7 seasons. He averaged nine rebounds a few years too. I did a little research., and I found out he won his lone MVP in the middle of the Russell/Chamberlain rivalry, and was the last non-center to win the MVP until Dr. J won it in 81.

Yes, Magic owns a 3-1 MVP edge over him, but Kareem said he was the best player of all time, and Bill Russell said he was the smartest player he ever played against, just ahead of Wilt.

I suggest people interested in reading more about it, to read the top comment of his page. Pretty insightful:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091028032653AAJJwas

Who do you think is the best PG? I'd probably go with Magic in a slight edge just because of the competition. But you cannot deny that Robertson is one of the few players that have a case for being the greatest of all time.

[RobbyH]

Most people give that award to Magic right off the bat, and there's a good logic behind that. Magic was one of the best ever, and was considered the best before MJ showed up. What a lot of people don't realize about Magic, was that coming in he wasn't 'the guy' like LeBron, Bird, etc.

But if there was a mirror image of Magic and his game, I'd have to say it was Oscar. Oscar averaged a triple double his first 6-7 seasons. He averaged nine rebounds a few years too. I did a little research., and I found out he won his lone MVP in the middle of the Russell/Chamberlain rivalry, and was the last non-center to win the MVP until Dr. J won it in 81.

Yes, Magic owns a 3-1 MVP edge over him, but Kareem said he was the best player of all time, and Bill Russell said he was the smartest player he ever played against, just ahead of Wilt.

I suggest people interested in reading more about it, to read the top comment of his page. Pretty insightful:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091028032653AAJJwas

Who do you think is the best PG? I'd probably go with Magic in a slight edge just because of the competition. But you cannot deny that Robertson is one of the few players that have a case for being the greatest of all time.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Emi7rj3Uec0/UemFPCZRfiI/AAAAAAAAN3Q/cx31wUpVXNE/s1600/triple-h-nod.gif

[King Emmanuel]

magic only slightly better? op is so fucking stupid honestly just stop

[TDMVPDPOY]

rebounds for a pg is overrated, its nothing more then a bonus actually

just look at pg who nearly avg triple doubles or has more rebs then the norm......aka kidd, what have that actually done for them besides padding stats?

[Malik Hairston]

:lol there's nothing impressive about players that played in the 60s, tbh..

Most of their opposition was White American players, too..

Man, if Patty Mills had played in the 60s, today's fans would view him as an elite legend:lol..

[Buddy Mignon]

Most people give that award to Magic right off the bat, and there's a good logic behind that. Magic was one of the best ever, and was considered the best before MJ showed up. What a lot of people don't realize about Magic, was that coming in he wasn't 'the guy' like LeBron, Bird, etc.

But if there was a mirror image of Magic and his game, I'd have to say it was Oscar. Oscar averaged a triple double his first 6-7 seasons. He averaged nine rebounds a few years too. I did a little research., and I found out he won his lone MVP in the middle of the Russell/Chamberlain rivalry, and was the last non-center to win the MVP until Dr. J won it in 81.

Yes, Magic owns a 3-1 MVP edge over him, but Kareem said he was the best player of all time, and Bill Russell said he was the smartest player he ever played against, just ahead of Wilt.

I suggest people interested in reading more about it, to read the top comment of his page. Pretty insightful:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091028032653AAJJwas

Who do you think is the best PG? I'd probably go with Magic in a slight edge just because of the competition. But you cannot deny that Robertson is one of the few players that have a case for being the greatest of all time.



Shut the fuck up you cock sucker. Magic won state title for his high school team one year. Then two years later won the NCAA title and Most Outstanding Player enroute to curb stomping Bird's ass in the title game. The following year beat the dog shit out of Dr. J. while winning his first Finals MVP as a rookie. He later won another Finals MVP two years later in only his 3rd season. Robertson was nothing more than a stat whoring stiff.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lol there's nothing impressive about players that played in the 60s, tbh..

Most of their opposition was White American players, too..

Man, if Patty Mills had played in the 60s, today's fans would view him as an elite legend:lol..

Yeah.. but people consider Wilt and Russell as one of the greatest.. and Robertson was clearly above everyone's level.

[namlook]

No player that won only one ring and no finals MVPs can ever be in the discussion as greatest player of all time. Maybe it was bad luck or circumstances but what happened is what happened and you can't play the what if game to argue a guy is the best ever when he ranks so far behind in terms if winning. Basketball historians will never rank him ahead of Magic. It's one of those comparisons Oscar can never win.

[Leetonidas]

This is like trying to claim Kevin Garnett > Tim Duncan

[Arcadian]

He has a legit case. Good luck convincing this forum of that, though - people here fucking hate Oscar Robertson. There's a strong anti-60s bias, despite the fact that we have no (and can never have) empirical evidence to support that bias.


Basketball historians will never rank him ahead of Magic.

Some historians do rank him above Magic.


This is like trying to claim Kevin Garnett > Tim Duncan

It's nothing like that at all. With Garnett and Duncan, they played against each other, and we can directly observe who was better.

:lol I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

[Infinite_limit]

:lol there's nothing impressive about players that played in the 60s, tbh..

Most of their opposition was White American players, too..

Man, if Patty Mills had played in the 60s, today's fans would view him as an elite legend:lol..
No 3 point line = More cluttered inside the Arc. You needed quality handles, basketball IQ and consistent mid range shot. Many current NBA stars would struggle mightility

[Malik Hairston]

No 3 point line = More cluttered inside the Arc. You needed quality handles, basketball IQ and consistent mid range shot. Many current NBA stars would struggle mightility

:lol have you ever watched a 60s game, tbh?..go to YouTube and check it out..it's like watching a WNBA game today..

[namlook]

He has a legit case. Good luck convincing this forum of that, though - people here fucking hate Oscar Robertson. There's a strong anti-60s bias, despite the fact that we have no (and can never have) empirical evidence to support that bias.

Some historians do rank him above Magic.


Basketball historians when viewed as a group, not as individual people. There will always be individuals that have have beliefs that differ from what the general consensus is.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol there's nothing impressive about players that played in the 60s, tbh..

Most of their opposition was White American players, too..

Man, if Patty Mills had played in the 60s, today's fans would view him as an elite legend:lol..

This is horseshit. Oscar was the first 'big guard' although most people attribute that to Magic. Magic attributed it to Ice.

The league in the 60s was 8 teams and between Lucas Thurmond Russell and Chamberlian, half of them had quality pivots. Mills is only able to exist because of the rules against hand checking. He would have been destroyed up until 2000.

Fun fact: Both Oscar and Magic carried Kareem to championships.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol OP also thinks Cum Newton > Joe Montana

[ambchang]

Again, people ranking players based strictly on the raw absolute skills are misguided. The levels of training, medication, weight training, and strategy have changed drastically over the years, and will continue to change. By that rationale, future players will always be better than current or past players, because that's just the way it is.

A player should be judged on his based on what they have done as compared to what they were given.

Players in the old days competed at a very high level against the top players of their generation, and the notion that the league was played only by short white men was most definitely untrue in the 60s. IN the 59-60 season, players such as Wilt, Russell, and Petit were all in their primes. These are players who are 6'9" or taller, and that is not really that different from today's game. Dwight Howard is 6'9", Bosh is 6'10", Duncan is 6'11", and I can't think of any other notable bigs in today's game.

Elgin Baylor, at 6'5" was a small forward, which isn't that different from Charles Barkley, who at 6'4" dominated players in the 80s and 90s at the PF position.

Of course, the game was playing at a much faster pace, and the game was more inside oriented because cutting, ball movement, off ball movement, and outside shooting were not mature back then, so production, especially offensively, was focused on big men down low.

Now look at Oscar Robertson's career highlights

H0-Iz6fQRAE

Most of those were mid range jumpers from the FT line and the baseline. These are quality shots that he created through dribble drives, and a lot of them were makes despite having a hand in his face. His ball handling is impressive for a man his size, he had quickness and strength. These shots are likely not going to be available in today's game because his drives would have been snuffed out a long time before (especially those ft line jumpers), but there was no reason for the Big O to have a shot further out because the defense wasn't mature enough to stop an easier shot. However, a player of the quality of Robertson would have no problem extending his range or evolve his game another way.

The fact that Robertson dominated in an age of giants is even more impressive, and should be taken into consideration in ranking his place in history as well.

At the end of the day, I personally think Magic had the #1 PG position locked, with the exception of man to man defense, Magic was pretty much a perfect PG, especially later in his career. But Oscar did revolutionize the position and opened up the option of a big guy handling the ball. He was ball dominant, and he played a lot more like a SG later in his career, but he would easily be a top 3 PG (along with Isiah Thomas), and arguably a #2.

Also, Maurice Stokes was the first big ball handler. He played PF and C in the 50s, but that man balled and would have been a legend if not for the devastating injury he had.

[chunticakes]

lol @ those highlights. basically what harlem said. and i don't even agree with the nigga generally tbh.

[scanry]

I don't think another PG would ever top Magic not with today's rules tbh. Magic single handedly took out the Celtics mystic and beat them at the Boston Garden. It's retarded when Kobe fans try to spin the "Kobe is the greatest Laker" stickh.

[spurraider21]

H0-Iz6fQRAE

:lmao that defense at 0:13... this video is basically a bunch of mid range jumpers in slow motion. the guy is almost always going to his right are we barely see a left handed dribble

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lmao that defense at 0:13... this video is basically a bunch of mid range jumpers in slow motion. the guy is almost always going to his right are we barely see a left handed dribble

That shouldn't take anything away from O.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4caOwS6jI

The Mavs defense here is completely nonexistent. Where is Steve Nash (one of the GOAT PG's)? Not everything is attributed to different era's.

"They don't play like we do, so they are inferior :cry"

[spurraider21]

That shouldn't take anything away from O.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4caOwS6jI

The Mavs defense here is completely nonexistent. Where is Steve Nash (one of the GOAT PG's)? Not everything is attributed to different era's.

"They don't play like we do, so they are inferior :cry"
scoring through doubles with a variety of moves, constantly finding open guys > 2 dribbles right and pull up every time

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

scoring through doubles with a variety of moves, constantly finding open guys > 2 dribbles right and pull up every time

You didn't watch the video.

[spurraider21]

You didn't watch the video.
i watched both

[Malik Hairston]

This is horseshit. Oscar was the first 'big guard' although most people attribute that to Magic. Magic attributed it to Ice.

The league in the 60s was 8 teams and between Lucas Thurmond Russell and Chamberlian, half of them had quality pivots. Mills is only able to exist because of the rules against hand checking. He would have been destroyed up until 2000.

Fun fact: Both Oscar and Magic carried Kareem to championships.

:lol maybe Mills was hyperbole, but the only argument that gives credibility to players from the 60s is if you're comparing them to modern players by eliminating all advancements/progression(physical advantages, better supps, knowledge of nutrition and exercise, coaching strategies, etc)..

If you're comparing them side-by-side without ignoring the peripherals, then they don't stand a chance, tbh..

It's also difficult for me(somebody that hasn't reached the latter part of my 20s) to watch these videos in awe, not only based on the individual's skills/athleticism/talent, but also due to the opposition..most of the opposing players' in these videos are unathletic, White Americans..there's a reason that the number of White American NBA players has progressively declined dramatically from the 60s until today..

[ambchang]

lol @ those highlights. basically what harlem said. and i don't even agree with the nigga generally tbh.

And yet the shocking thing is that very few players can consistently pull up from mid range and nail a jumper with a hand in his face these days. Those were quality shots, and they are disppearing from the league because:
a) Those shots are not available anymore due to improvement in defense
b) Players do not practice them anymore because of a)

The marksmanship of players are generally the same over the years. The most accurate indicator is the FT% as it is an uncontested shot from 15 feet. Things such as defense, speed, movement, decision making are generally taken out of the entire equation, and the only challenge is a player from 15 feet. In 1960, the league average FT% was 73.5%, in 2014, it was 75.6%. Put in the variable where big men were a much bigger piece of the offense in the 60s vs 2014, and that big men are generally worse FT shooters, those two numbers are basically identical.

There weren't a lot of awe inspiring moves in that video, but when you look at Big O, he had very good quickness and handles, and he had a deadly mid range game. These are things that translate very well to today's game. Players such as Brandon Roy played a very similar game priior to his injuries (a few feet out), and yet he was one of the best players in the league when he was healthy.


:lmao that defense at 0:13... this video is basically a bunch of mid range jumpers in slow motion. the guy is almost always going to his right are we barely see a left handed dribble

The defense at 0:13 was fine. It was a classic go under the screen move, and keeping your hands up on a shooter is the right play. Not using his left hand is not a huge deal, it's not like a lot of players today are ambidextrous.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

And yet the shocking thing is that very few players can consistently pull up from mid range and nail a jumper with a hand in his face these days. Those were quality shots, and they are disppearing from the league because:
a) Those shots are not available anymore due to improvement in defense
b) Players do not practice them anymore because of a)

The marksmanship of players are generally the same over the years. The most accurate indicator is the FT% as it is an uncontested shot from 15 feet. Things such as defense, speed, movement, decision making are generally taken out of the entire equation, and the only challenge is a player from 15 feet. In 1960, the league average FT% was 73.5%, in 2014, it was 75.6%. Put in the variable where big men were a much bigger piece of the offense in the 60s vs 2014, and that big men are generally worse FT shooters, those two numbers are basically identical.

There weren't a lot of awe inspiring moves in that video, but when you look at Big O, he had very good quickness and handles, and he had a deadly mid range game. These are things that translate very well to today's game. Players such as Brandon Roy played a very similar game priior to his injuries (a few feet out), and yet he was one of the best players in the league when he was healthy.


Not to mention there wasn't a three point line. You needed to have a great mid-range game back then.

[spurraider21]

The defense at 0:13 was fine. It was a classic go under the screen move, and keeping your hands up on a shooter is the right play. Not using his left hand is not a huge deal, it's not like a lot of players today are ambidextrous.
In talking about where the defender in the baseline literally didn't move.

And in a conversation about point guards, being able to use both hands is more important

[-21-]

:lol there's nothing impressive about players that played in the 60s, tbh..

Most of their opposition was White American players, too..

Man, if Patty Mills had played in the 60s, today's fans would view him as an elite legend:lol..

I have to agree.


Yeah.. but people consider Wilt and Russell as one of the greatest.. and Robertson was clearly above everyone's level.

Wilt and Russell are overrated. As Harlem said, the competition was weak and the game was different. The stars from that era would not look as good if you put them in Magic's era. They were great players for their time and because of that they have their place in history. But Magic > Oscar.

[ambchang]

In talking about where the defender in the baseline literally didn't move.

And in a conversation about point guards, being able to use both hands is more important

That happens all the time in today's NBA as well. Help doesn't come, and a lot of that has to do with the deceptiveness of the offensive player.

As for the left hand, you don't use it if you don't have to. It's not like it's something difficult to develop if necessary in today's game.

[Arcadian]

Bill Walton frequently said that "Tim Duncan is like a 7 foot version of Oscar Robertson."

So, to reverse the analogy, Oscar Robertson was like a PG version of Tim Duncan.

[lefty]

I dont care what era he played in; Oscar what consistent

Which is rare in any era

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol maybe Mills was hyperbole, but the only argument that gives credibility to players from the 60s is if you're comparing them to modern players by eliminating all advancements/progression(physical advantages, better supps, knowledge of nutrition and exercise, coaching strategies, etc)..

If you're comparing them side-by-side without ignoring the peripherals, then they don't stand a chance, tbh..

It's also difficult for me(somebody that hasn't reached the latter part of my 20s) to watch these videos in awe, not only based on the individual's skills/athleticism/talent, but also due to the opposition..most of the opposing players' in these videos are unathletic, White Americans..there's a reason that the number of White American NBA players has progressively declined dramatically from the 60s until today..

The change in the 1960s was the civil rights act. It was a legislative change that effected the country. There is zero doubt that as children grew up using the same facilities and with the same access matriculated into the NCAA and NBA but that would take a generation. Your brand new super black athlete is asinine.

If you want to say that the nutrition means for a broader base then that means one thing but I don't think it would effect the outliers which is what we are talking about. Nutrition is commercialized and not exactly hard science. Frankly it sounds like hyped technology worship that is impossible to quantify.

Don't even mention coaching and training because clubs had much more control and its been widely discussed that between expansion which diluted the base and free agency which made consistent training almost a bygone the quality of play of the NBA is actually quite poor. 18 year olds regularly not just on rosters but starting as on the job training became necessary.

Magic got to play the Clippers and Kings whereas in the 60s there were very few (8-10) teams. You ended up playing Chamberlain, Lucas, Bellamy, Thurmond, Unseld, et al night after night. As opposed to now you can get Plumlee, Vucevic, Antic and the PF playing out of position night in and night out.

Robertson was getting triple doubles in that league. Not the legion of white men you try and portray.

[Thebesteva]

:lol there's nothing impressive about players that played in the 60s, tbh..

Most of their opposition was White American players, too..

Man, if Patty Mills had played in the 60s, today's fans would view him as an elite legend:lol..

Man I pissed off some old timers at the gym when I told them the NBA was a joke prior to the 80s. They kept telling me about how Pistol Pete would own Kobe and Lebron :lol

[Raven]

OR was a fucking boss, he gets all my respect.

[da_suns_fan]

Most people give that award to Magic right off the bat, and there's a good logic behind that. Magic was one of the best ever, and was considered the best before MJ showed up. What a lot of people don't realize about Magic, was that coming in he wasn't 'the guy' like LeBron, Bird, etc.

But if there was a mirror image of Magic and his game, I'd have to say it was Oscar. Oscar averaged a triple double his first 6-7 seasons. He averaged nine rebounds a few years too. I did a little research., and I found out he won his lone MVP in the middle of the Russell/Chamberlain rivalry, and was the last non-center to win the MVP until Dr. J won it in 81.

Yes, Magic owns a 3-1 MVP edge over him, but Kareem said he was the best player of all time, and Bill Russell said he was the smartest player he ever played against, just ahead of Wilt.

I suggest people interested in reading more about it, to read the top comment of his page. Pretty insightful:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091028032653AAJJwas

Who do you think is the best PG? I'd probably go with Magic in a slight edge just because of the competition. But you cannot deny that Robertson is one of the few players that have a case for being the greatest of all time.

O played his entire career pre-merger. Not impressed with averaging a triple double against weaker talent in a divided basketball world.