Ron Paul: Why Won't Obama Leave Ukraine Alone?

[cheguevara]

Why Won’t Obama Just Leave Ukraine Alone?

President Obama announced last week that he was imposing yet another round of sanctions on Russia, this time targeting financial, arms, and energy sectors. The European Union, as it has done each time, quickly followed suit.

These sanctions will not produce the results Washington demands, but they will hurt the economies of the US and EU, as well as Russia.

These sanctions are, according to the Obama administration, punishment for what it claims is Russia’s role in the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and for what the president claims is Russia’s continued arming of separatists in eastern Ukraine. Neither of these reasons makes much sense because neither case has been proven.

The administration began blaming Russia for the downing of the plane just hours after the crash, before an investigation had even begun. The administration claimed it had evidence of Russia’s involvement but refused to show it. Later, the Obama administration arranged a briefing by “senior intelligence officials” who told the media that “we don’t know a name, we don’t know a rank and we’re not even 100 percent sure of a nationality,” of who brought down the aircraft.

So Obama then claimed Russian culpability because Russia’s “support” for the separatists in east Ukraine “created the conditions” for the shoot-down of the aircraft. That is a dangerous measure of culpability considering US support for separatist groups in Syria and elsewhere.

Similarly, the US government claimed that Russia is providing weapons, including heavy weapons, to the rebels in Ukraine and shooting across the border into Ukrainian territory. It may be true, but again the US refuses to provide any evidence and the Russian government denies the charge. It’s like Iraq’s WMDs all over again.

Obama has argued that the Ukrainians should solve this problem themselves and therefore Russia should butt out.

I agree with the president on this. Outside countries should leave Ukraine to resolve the conflict itself. However, even as the US demands that the Russians de-escalate, the United States is busy escalating!

In June, Washington sent a team of military advisors to help Ukraine fight the separatists in the eastern part of the country. Such teams of “advisors” often include special forces and are usually a slippery slope to direct US military involvement.

On Friday, President Obama requested Congressional approval to send US troops into Ukraine to train and equip its national guard. This even though in March, the president promised no US boots on the ground in Ukraine. The deployment will be funded with $19 million from a fund designated to fight global terrorism, signaling that the US considers the secessionists in Ukraine to be “terrorists.”

Are US drone strikes against these “terrorists” and the “associated forces” who support them that far off?

The US has already provided the Ukrainian military with $23 million for defense security, $5 million in body armor, $8 million to help secure Ukraine’s borders, several hundred thousand ready-to-eat meals as well as an array of communications equipment. Congress is urging the president to send lethal military aid and the administration is reportedly considering sending real-time intelligence to help target rebel positions.

But let’s not forget that this whole crisis started with the US-sponsored coup against Ukraine’s elected president back in February. The US escalates while it demands that Russia de-escalate. How about all sides de-escalate?

Even when the goals are clear, sanctions have a lousy track record. Sanctions are acts of war. These sanctions will most definitely have a negative effect on the US economy as well as the Russian economy. Why is “winning” Ukraine so important to Washington? Why are they risking a major war with Russia to deny people in Ukraine the right to self-determination? Let’s just leave Ukraine alone!

[boutons_deux]

RP's isolationism/non-interventionism is exactly why the war-lovin, gun-fellatin, murderous Repugs will never choose him a Pres candidate.

[Infinite_limit]

Although there are still a ton of Americans falling for the classic Washington BS "Iraq has WMD's & Saddam is working with Bin Laden", I think I can safely say a good portion have caught on. Maybe if the Economy was still booming these issues of "What & why is the USA meddling overseas" would still be swept under the rug. But currently it's fairly obvious to most that US is in the business of destabilizing Governments. Maybe 50+ years ago you could argue the end result of these involvements turned out positive but over the past 30+ years and especially the last decade it's been awful. I can't think of a single nation over the past decade that US helped "liberate" and it resulting in superior living standards.

The effect is being felt in Europe as people & governments are openly questioning if "Liberal Democracy" is any longer even the way to go. I'm waiting for the gullible Eastern Europeans to wake up.

[Jacob1983]

Why not just let Russia do whatever the fuck they want? Stay out of it.

[boutons_deux]

Jon Stewart trashing Rand Paul and his blatant LIES

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/08/1320009/-The-Daily-Show-Democalypse-2016-Coif-to-the-Rac?detail=email

[Cry Havoc]

Why won't the U.S. leave Israel alone?

[boutons_deux]

Why won't the U.S. leave Israel alone?

Wealthy Jews, AIPAC buy govt policies, just like anybody else in USA.

[Cry Havoc]

Wealthy Jews, AIPAC buy govt policies, just like anybody else in USA.

It was rhetorical. :lol

[The Reckoning]

russia always finds a way to fuck up. just let them fuck themselves over.

[Infinite_limit]

russia always finds a way to fuck up. just let them fuck themselves over.
Replace Russia with USA in your original statement and it also rings true

[xeromass]

Because Russia must be clearly shown that this kind of expansionism will not be tolerated. If they don't get the message Baltic states will be next highly possible target. They all have solid Russian minority and are NATO members.

Now do you feel like starting WWIII over nation of million or three? Do you, punk?

Well if you don't NATO charter ain't worth the paper it's written on. Just what Putin wants.

[pgardn]

Replace Russia with USA in your original statement and it also rings true

Who has the largest economy along with the most military strength Nazi?

Fkn ruskis can't even feed themselves, all they can do is petrol, and they do this poorly. So much farmland and mineral wealth and look where they are. With a leader who takes his shirt off to project power. Russia is a mess.

[cheguevara]

USA is terrified of Russia tbh. They cannot fight a land war vs Russia. They know it, and Putin knows it. Even maintaining an aerial war vs. Russia would be a monumental task. Sure USA weaponry is superior. But Russia is inmense and they have very powerful AntiAir weapons. Any kind of direct war vs. Russia would cost the US it's economy and it would result in US collapse eventually.

so no, there won't be any kind of direct war vs. Russia. Europe and USA are terrified of even thinking this.

USA couldn't even beat Vietnam. You really think they have a chance vs Russia?? :lmao

[pgardn]

USA is terrified of Russia tbh. They cannot fight a land war vs Russia. They know it, and Putin knows it. Even maintaining an aerial war vs. Russia would be a monumental task. Sure USA weaponry is superior. But Russia is inmense and they have very powerful AntiAir weapons. Any kind of direct war vs. Russia would cost the US it's economy and it would result in US collapse eventually.

so no, there won't be any kind of direct war vs. Russia. Europe and USA are terrified of even thinking this.

USA couldn't even beat Vietnam. You really think they have a chance vs Russia?? :lmao

We could have leveled Vietnam just like we did with Germany and Japan. We don't go all in because we like our money, we like functional economies. Because Russia is in such sad shape they don't have as much to lose. We would could obliterate them in any sort of war if we go all in.

But we won't, and either will they. But they will melt internally far ahead of the US.

[cheguevara]

We could have leveled Vietnam just like we did with Germany and Japan. We don't go all in because we like our money, we like functional economies. Because Russia is in such sad shape they don't have as much to lose. We would could obliterate them in any sort of war if we go all in.

false. Russia has 2000+ nukes hundreds with multiple warheads and ability to deliver payload on multiple locations. If US goes all in on Russia, US would be toast.



But we won't, and either will they. But they will melt internally far ahead of the US.

That's US only hope. Will all be meaningless in 15 years when China Navy/Airforce takes over.

[pgardn]

false. Russia has 2000+ nukes hundreds with multiple warheads and ability to deliver payload on multiple locations. If US goes all in on Russia, US would be toast.



That's US only hope. Will all be meaningless in 15 years when China Navy/Airforce takes over.

Wrong, Russia would not have done shit.
We could have leveled the entirety of Vietnam conventionally.


And wrong again imo.
China is choking on their own waste. We will learn from them how not to run industry when it gets hot.
China will be the perfect example for people to see clearly the destruction big industry can cause, State run, or free market.

[Infinite_limit]

USA is terrified of Russia tbh. They cannot fight a land war vs Russia. They know it, and Putin knows it. Even maintaining an aerial war vs. Russia would be a monumental task. Sure USA weaponry is superior. But Russia is inmense and they have very powerful AntiAir weapons. Any kind of direct war vs. Russia would cost the US it's economy and it would result in US collapse eventually.

so no, there won't be any kind of direct war vs. Russia. Europe and USA are terrified of even thinking this.

USA couldn't even beat Vietnam. You really think they have a chance vs Russia?? :lmao
Yup. How many Americans would actually strap up their boots and fight? As demographics in the USA continue to change so does the percentage of Americans that would make the ultimate sacrifice. Russia has a population foaming at the mouth to prove themselves. They haven't fought a large War since the 1980's while the USA is tired and moral dwindling. USA hasn't defended it's home land in over 200 years and unlike then this is a population split culturally, racially and religiously.

You know Arabs would take the side of Russians seeing it as an opportunity to bring down the Great Satan. Envision suicide bombings outside your doorstep.

Good luck America

[pgardn]

Yup. How many Americans would actually strap up their boots and fight? As demographics in the USA continue to change so does the percentage of Americans that would make the ultimate sacrifice. Russia has a population foaming at the mouth to prove themselves. They haven't fought a large War since the 1980's while the USA is tired and moral dwindling. USA hasn't defended it's home land in over 200 years and unlike then this is a population split culturally, racially and religiously.

You know Arabs would take the side of Russians seeing it as an opportunity to bring down the Great Satan. Envision suicide bombings outside your doorstep.

Good luck America

America has more than proved its mettle when the population actually feels threatened.

You look at half hearted forays into foreign countries with fanciful thinking they become democracies, Americans never totally bought this. It's like the great beast got fed up with the stinging ants. You tell Americans they are in a true battle for THEIR territory... Nazi don't want to ever see that again, and either does Russia or myself.

Can you describe Dresden? Nazi...

[Infinite_limit]

America has more than proved its mettle when the population actually feels threatened.

You look at half hearted forays into foreign countries with fanciful thinking they become democracies, Americans never totally bought this. It's like the great beast got fed up with the stinging ants. You tell Americans they are in a true battle for THEIR territory... Nazi don't want to ever see that again, and either does Russia or myself.

Can you describe Dresden? Nazi...
Americans didn't fight Nazis. They fought poorly equipped Asians and they are now fighting disorganized Middle Easterners. Americans want no part of the powerful White Race.

[pgardn]

Americans didn't fight Nazis. They fought poorly equipped Asians and they are now fighting disorganized Middle Easterners. Americans want no part of the powerful White Race.

My wife's father fought Nazis. I talked to him many times before he died and I saw the pictures he took.
Explained.

He was also fair skinned brown hair blue eyed just like my wife, me and my daughter. We are Caucasians with German background. And we hate Nazis. So we were glad when he played a role in blowing them up. Re-engineering the German airfields for American planes to bomb Nazis gave him a sense of righteousness I think. Especially after seeing the camps.

I have seen the pictures Nazi...
We white Americans don't forget. Neither do most Germans. They are ashamed at what their relatives did or let go on.

[xeromass]

Can Europe get some love in this dick-measuring contest? :lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_military

This is just EU to these numbers you can also add Ukraine, Norway, Ireland, Turkey, Israel and few smaller ones in Balkans.

More than 500 mil people - with additions upwards of 600 (cannon-fodder we have), 2nd biggest defense budget (more than twice the Russian), 5 aircraft carriers (2 additional under construction), some of the best attack subs, almost all forces have real combat experiences...

But of course if whole thing goes nuclear we'll be talking about strategic reserves of rocks.

[xeromass]

One more thing - Russia is currently on post-Crimean annexation high. Public is also pumped full of state propaganda about Ukrainian fascists abusing ethnic Russians with the help of Germans and Americans (old WWII and cold war enemies).

Putin apparently has 87% approval rating, although I doubt the accuracy of that. It's too high the number even for Jesus the 2nd if he ever decides to show up.

They simply need a nice (economic) kick in the balls so they realize they're not all powerful and can't go alone in this world.

[hater]

Can Europe get some love in this dick-measuring contest? :lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_military

This is just EU to these numbers you can also add Ukraine, Norway, Ireland, Turkey, Israel and few smaller ones in Balkans.

More than 500 mil people - with additions upwards of 600 (cannon-fodder we have), 2nd biggest defense budget (more than twice the Russian), 5 aircraft carriers (2 additional under construction), some of the best attack subs, almost all forces have real combat experiences...

But of course if whole thing goes nuclear we'll be talking about strategic reserves of rocks.

Europeans are pussies. Why else do they let daddy USA speak for them vs Russia?

They are a disorganized bunch of faggots.

[pgardn]

Europeans are pussies. Why else do they let daddy USA speak for them vs Russia?

They are a disorganized bunch of faggots.

Its so enlightening to have a real expert on foreign affairs clear things up.

* crinkle trash *

[FuzzyLumpkins]

USA is terrified of Russia tbh. They cannot fight a land war vs Russia. They know it, and Putin knows it. Even maintaining an aerial war vs. Russia would be a monumental task. Sure USA weaponry is superior. But Russia is inmense and they have very powerful AntiAir weapons. Any kind of direct war vs. Russia would cost the US it's economy and it would result in US collapse eventually.

so no, there won't be any kind of direct war vs. Russia. Europe and USA are terrified of even thinking this.

USA couldn't even beat Vietnam. You really think they have a chance vs Russia?? :lmao

Only chance Russia has versus NATO is if China throws in assuming all out war.

[cheguevara]

Only chance Russia has versus NATO is if China throws in assuming all out war.

disagree. NATO would never take Russia up front as Germany would never allow it. USA would have to go vs Russia on their own. And as said above, this would cripple the US economy to its demise. not going to happen.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

disagree. NATO would never take Russia up front as Germany would never allow it. USA would have to go vs Russia on their own. And as said above, this would cripple the US economy to its demise. not going to happen.

This is just make believe. If you want to pretend that Germany would not honor the NATO alliance in response to Russian aggression then go for it.

[cheguevara]

This is just make believe. If you want to pretend that Germany would not honor the NATO alliance in response to Russian aggression then go for it.

LOL Honor

NATO did not honor shit when US went solo in Iraq. Even NATO member Turkey said no to US troops entering Iraq through Turkey.

So no, NATO will never(unless directly attacked) go to war with Russia. (mainly because of Germany, Germany is one of the few countries that are not complete US puppets)

[cheguevara]

but why listen to me, let's hear from the experts :lol
7-reasons-why-america-will-never-go-to-war-over-ukraine
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/03/05/7-reasons-why-america-will-never-go-to-war-over-ukraine/

Russia is a nuclear superpower. Russia has an estimated 4,500 active nuclear warheads, according to the Federation of American Scientists. Unlike North Korea or perhaps Iran, whose nuclear arsenals couldn’t inflict substantial damage, Russia could totally devastate the U.S. as well as the rest of the planet. U.S. missile defenses, assuming they even work, are not designed to stop a massive Russian strike.

Russia has a powerful army. U.S. forces are more capable than Russian forces. However, better is not good enough. The Russian military is not composed of lightly armed insurgents like the Taliban, or a hapless army like the Iraqis in 2003. With advanced weapons like T-80 tanks, supersonic AT-15 Springer anti-tank missiles, BM-30 Smerch multiple rocket launchers and S-400 Growler anti-aircraft missiles, Russian forces pack enough firepower to inflict significant American losses.

Ukraine is closer to Russia. The distance between Kiev and Moscow is 500 miles. The distance between Kiev and New York is 5,000 miles. It’s much easier for Russia to send troops and supplies by land than for the U.S. to send them by sea or air.

The U.S. military is tired. After nearly 13 years of war, America’s armed forces need a breather.

The U.S. doesn’t have many troops to send. The U.S. could easily dispatch air power to Ukraine if its NATO allies allow use of their airbases, and the aircraft carrier George H. W. Bush and its hundred aircraft are patrolling the Mediterranean. But for a ground war to liberate Crimea or defend Ukraine, there is just the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Italy, the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit sailing off Spain, the 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment in Germany and the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

The American people are tired.

America‘s allies are tired. NATO sent troops to support the American campaign in Afghanistan, and has little to show for it. Britain sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, and has little to show for it. It is almost inconceivable to imagine the Western European public marching in the streets to demand the liberation of Crimea, especially considering the region’s sputtering economy, which might be snuffed out should Russia stop exporting natural gas. As for military capabilities, the Europeans couldn’t evict Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi without American help. And Germans fighting Russians again? Let’s not even go there.

:tu

[cheguevara]

http://cdn.voicesofliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/5016239182_e58d8c9abf_z-350x196.jpg

Government Likely Hiding Truth in Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash

August 7, 2014 – The U.S. government5016239182_e58d8c9abf_z has grown strangely quite on the accusation that it was Russia or her allies that brought down the Malaysian airliner with a buck anti-aircraft missile.

The little that we have heard from U.S. intelligence is that it has no evidence that Russia was involved. Yet the war propaganda were successful in convincing the American public that it was all Russia’s fault. It’s hard to believe that the U.S., with all of its spy satellites available for monitoring everything in Ukraine that precise proof of who did what and when is not available.

When evidence contradicts our government’s accusations, the evidence is never revealed to the public—for national security reasons, of course. Some independent sources claim that the crash site revealed evidence that bullet holes may have come from a fighter jet. If true, it would implicate Western Ukraine.

Questions do remain regarding the serious international incident. Too bad we can’t count on our government to just tell us the truth and show us the evidence. I’m convinced that it knows a lot more than it’s telling us.

[2pac > Kobe]

why is this frost king always talking shit, salty ass old man

[cheguevara]

why is this king always talking truth,?

because noone else in his status dares to

[boutons_deux]

Did somebody say Rand Paul? how about drive-bitch slapping of him and liberterianism?

Phosphorus and Freedom

The Libertarian Fantasy

In the latest Times Magazine, Robert Draper profiled (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/magazine/has-the-libertarian-moment-finally-arrived.html?ref=magazine) youngish libertarians — roughly speaking, people who combine free-market economics with permissive social views — and asked whether we might be heading for a “libertarian moment.”

Well, probably not. Polling suggest (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/08/america-is-not-turning-libertarian.html)s that young Americans tend, if anything, to be more supportive of the case for a bigger government than their elders.

But I’d like to ask a different question:

Is libertarian economics at all realistic?

The answer is no.

And the reason can be summed up in one word: phosphorus.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/opinion/paul-krugman-the-libertarian-fantasy.html?_r=0

[Infinite_limit]

Did somebody say Rand Paul?

No.

[cheguevara]

Rand is as much of a joke as Obama. He cant hold his daddys jockstrap tbh.

both him and Obama power hungry whores of the system

[boutons_deux]

Rand Paul: Only Fetal Personhood Can Prevent Collapse Of Civilization

“I’ve introduced legislation called the Life at Conception Act, to define when life begins: at conception. I’ve also probably co-sponsored 20-some-odd pro-life bills, I have a 100 percent voting record for pro-life,” Paul said during the interview. “But I also have taken the time to go to the March for Life. When I was there, I was the only senator who showed up for the March for Life.”

“So I do think it’s important,” Paul added. “I often say in my speeches, that I don’t think a civilization can long endure that doesn’t respect the rights of the unborn.”

Paul’s Life at Conception Act (https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s583/text) would extend legal rights to humans “at all stages of life, including the moment of fertilization, cloning, or other moment at which an individual member of the human species comes into being.” In practice, the bill would outlaw abortion, in addition to embryonic stem cell research and many common forms of birth control.

http://www.nationalmemo.com/rand-paul-fetal-personhood-can-prevent-collapse-civilization-video/

[boutons_deux]

The So-Called 'Libertarian Moment' Is Engineered By The Christian Right

There’s been quite the buzz in the chattering classes this week over Robert Draper’s suggestion (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/magazine/has-the-libertarian-moment-finally-arrived.html)in the New York Times Magazine that the Republican Party, and perhaps even the nation, may finally prepared for a “libertarian moment,” likely through the agency of the shrewd and flexible politician Rand Paul. It’s obvious, in fact, that some of the aging hipsters Draper talks to who have been laboring in the libertarian fields for decades glimpse over the horizon a reconstructed GOP that can reverse the instinctive loathing of millennials for the Old Folks’ Party.

Unfortunately, to the extent there is something that can be called a “libertarian moment” in the Republican Party and the conservative movement, it owes less to the work of the Cato Institute than to a force genuine libertarians clutching their copies of Atlas Shrugged are typically horrified by: the Christian Right. In the emerging ideological enterprise of “constitutional conservatism,” theocrats are the senior partners, just as they have largely been in the Tea Party Movement, even though libertarians often get more attention.

More commonly, Con-Cons reinforce this idea of a semi-divine constitutional order by endowing it with — quite literally — divine origins. This is why David Barton’s largely discredited “Christian Nation” revisionist histories of the Founders remain so highly influential (http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/david-barton-historian-right-christian-96443.html) in conservative circles, and why Barton himself is welcome company in the camps of Con-Con pols ranging from Cruz and Bachmann to Rick Perry and Mike Huckabee. This is why virtually all Con-Cons conflate the Constitution with the Declaration of Independence, which enabled them to sneak both Natural and Divine Law (including most conspicuously a pre-natal Right to Life) into the nation’s organic governing structure.

What a lot of those who instinctively think of conservative Christians as hostile to libertarian ideas of strict government persistently miss is that divinizing untrammeled capitalism (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/the-permanent-campaign/91661/tea-party-christian-right-michele-bachmann) has been a growing habit on the Christian Right for decades.

So perhaps the question we should be asking is not whether the Christian Right and other “traditional” conservatives can accept a Rand Paul-led “libertarian” takeover of the conservative movement and the GOP, but whether “libertarians” are an independent factor in conservative politics to begin with. After all, most of the Republican politicians we think of as “libertarian”--whether it’s Rand Paul or Justin Amash or Mike Lee--are also paid-up culture-war opponents of legalized abortion, Common Core, and other heathenish practices. As Heather Digby Partonnoted tartly (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/panderwith-rand.html) earlier this week:

The line between theocrats and libertarian Republicans is very, very faint. Why do you think they've bastardized the concept of "Religious Liberty" to mean the right to inflict your religion on others? It appeals to people who fashion themselves as libertarians but really only care about their taxes, guns and weed. Those are the non-negotiable items. Everything else is on offer.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/libertarian-christian-right

Just another reason why libertarianism is total fraud, in theory and practice.

[boutons_deux]

Remember Ron Paul saying he didn't read his racist newsletters? :lol

Ron Paul: Black lawmakers oppose war because they want the money for food stamps

“I was always annoyed with it in Congress because we had an anti-war unofficial group, a few libertarian Republicans and generally the Black Caucus and others did not — they are really against war because they want all of that money to go to food stamps for people here,” Paul told Rockwell.

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/24/ron_paul_congressional_black_caucus_opposes_war_be cause_they_want_to_spend_money_on_food_stamps/

[RandomGuy]

These sanctions are, according to the Obama administration, punishment for what it claims is Russia’s role in the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, and for what the president claims is Russia’s continued arming of separatists in eastern Ukraine. Neither of these reasons makes much sense because neither case has been proven.

The administration began blaming Russia for the downing of the plane just hours after the crash, before an investigation had even begun. The administration claimed it had evidence of Russia’s involvement but refused to show it. Later, the Obama administration arranged a briefing by “senior intelligence officials” who told the media that “we don’t know a name, we don’t know a rank and we’re not even 100 percent sure of a nationality,” of who brought down the aircraft.

The downing of the jetliner was proven to be due to a Russian SAM.

Fuck, one rather brave soul even traced the exact launcher back to the exact unit in the Russian army that it went to.

NATO has the sensors that can detect and track such launchers, and had been watching the area with a lot of such sensors. Missile launchers are the kinds of things that militaries tend to pay attention to. This kind of data, however, would not be available to the public, for obvious reasons.

The crash investigators concluded the plane was obviously brought down by a SAM, especially given the shrapnel marks on a substantial amount of the debris.

Only an idiot like Paul would still think there is some other plausible explanation.

[CosmicCowboy]

Might as well just give Putin a land bridge to the Crimea now. That will probably be the end game compromise anyway.

[hater]

The downing of the jetliner was proven to be due to a Russian SAM.

Fuck, one rather brave soul even traced the exact launcher back to the exact unit in the Russian army that it went to.

NATO has the sensors that can detect and track such launchers, and had been watching the area with a lot of such sensors. Missile launchers are the kinds of things that militaries tend to pay attention to. This kind of data, however, would not be available to the public, for obvious reasons.

The crash investigators concluded the plane was obviously brought down by a SAM, especially given the shrapnel marks on a substantial amount of the debris.

Only an idiot like Paul would still think there is some other plausible explanation.

BS

never been proven like Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq was never proven.

You seriously are going to take a US-led investigation's conclusion as truth? :lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

BS

never been proven like Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq was never proven.

You seriously are going to take a US-led investigation's conclusion as truth? :lmao

So whose investigation does hater trust? Putin's?

[hater]

So whose investigation does hater trust? Putin's?

Nope.

Usually you do your own research taking acceptable evidence from all parties involved and make an informed judgement. The information is out there.

you never take the conclusion from either the East of West at face value without looking further. never.

[RandomGuy]

BS

never been proven like Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq was never proven.

You seriously are going to take a US-led investigation's conclusion as truth? :lmao

Actually, I came to that conclusion based on my own assessment of the data, without really relying overmuch on access to classified NATO data or any specific investigation, although I must say I have been impressed by what social media can do in getting at first hand, "on the ground" information.

The overwhelming amount of available evidence says that the Russians are lying through their teeth, and expecting a lot of useful idiots to take it for the truth though, that and Putin is attempting to play out some serious cold war style realpolitik.

[RandomGuy]

So whose investigation does hater trust? Putin's?

Well, where hater falls down in his analysis is that he is equating some past investigation to the current one, and appears to be doing the very amateurish mistake of thinking all sources making claims are equal, and the truth is somehow exactly between the two.

That does happen in reality, as things go, but it is also the case that two sides with opposing stories have some vast differences in overall credibility. North Korea claiming it does not violate human rights when accused by say Amnesty International springing to mind, as does 9-11 twoofers claiming inside jobs.

[Infinite_limit]

Nope.

Usually you do your own research taking acceptable evidence from all parties involved and make an informed judgement. The information is out there.

you never take the conclusion from either the East of West at face value without looking further. never.
Correct. America is the least credible 1st World nation on the planet: junk food, light beer, shitty cars. Should I go on?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Well, where hater falls down in his analysis is that he is equating some past investigation to the current one, and appears to be doing the very amateurish mistake of thinking all sources making claims are equal, and the truth is somehow exactly between the two.

That does happen in reality, as things go, but it is also the case that two sides with opposing stories have some vast differences in overall credibility. North Korea claiming it does not violate human rights when accused by say Amnesty International springing to mind, as does 9-11 twoofers claiming inside jobs.

Putin grabbed control of the 4 main media outlets for the former USSR in 2000. There is an excellent piece from a former Russian media executive over at politico. Part of critical thinking is vetting sources.


It was 2002, and I was just out of university, living in Moscow and working at a think tank meant to be promoting Russian-U.S. political ties. A friendly Russian publisher who wanted me to work for him had invited me to what would be my first meeting in Moscow. And that’s how I ended up surrounded by Russian media gurus tucked away on the top floor of Ostankino, the Soviet-era television center that is the battering ram of Kremlin propaganda—home to the studios of the country’s biggest channels. Here, Moscow’s flashiest minds gathered for a weekly brainstorming session to decide what Ostankino would broadcast.

At one end of the table sat one of the country’s most famous political TV presenters. He was small and spoke fast, with a smoky voice: “We all know there will be no real politics,” he said. “But we still have to give our viewers the sense something is happening. They need to be kept entertained.”

“So what should we play with?” he asked. “Shall we attack oligarchs? Who’s the enemy this week? Politics has got to feel like a movie!”

More than a decade later, that movie is increasingly dark and disturbing. The first thing Russian militias do when they take a town in East Ukraine is seize the television towers and switch them over to Kremlin channels. Soon after, the locals begin to rant about fascists in Kyiv and dark U.S. plots to purge Russian speakers from East Ukraine. It’s not just what they say but how they say it that is so disturbing: irrational spirals of paranoia, theories so elaborate and illogical one can’t possibly argue with them.

This is even before the bombs start falling on them: “Information war is now the main type of war,” says the Kremlin’s chief propagandist Dmitry Kieselev, “preparing the way for military action.” And Putin’s Russia is very good at it, having combined the dirtiest mechanisms of PR, brainwashing techniques pioneered in cults and a rich KGB tradition of psy-ops into a sort of television Frankenstein with which it controls its own population, conquers neighboring countries and attacks the West.


As soon as Vladimir Putin assumed the presidency in 2000, he seized control of television, arresting and exiling the oligarchs who stood in his way. In a country covering nine time zones and one-sixth of the world’s land mass, stretching from the Pacific to the Baltic, from the Arctic to the Central Asian deserts, from near-medieval villages where people still draw water from wooden wells by hand, through single-factory towns and back to the blue glass and steel skyscrapers of the new Moscow—TV is the only force that can unify, rule and bind the people.

It is television through which the Kremlin declares which politicians it will “allow” as its puppet opposition, what the country’s history and fears and consciousness should be. At the center of the great show is President Putin himself, nothing more than a set of colored pixels on a screen, morphing as rapidly as a performance artist among his roles of soldier, lover, bare-chested hunter, business man, spy, tsar, superman. “The news is the incense by which we bless Putin’s actions, make him the president,” TV producers and spin-doctors liked to say to me. In that smoky room, I had the sense that reality was somehow malleable, that I was sitting in a group of Prosperos who could project any existence they wanted onto post-Soviet Russia.

The 21st century Kremlin might be controlling the media just as it did in the Soviet era, but there’s one mistake today’s Russian will never repeat: It will never let television become dull. In fact, the goal is to synthesize Soviet control with Western entertainment—and for that it needs the help of Western producers who, Russians believe, know the alchemical secret of great television formats.

That’s where I came in. By 2006, I had moved from public policy consulting to media, working on documentaries for British and U.S. networks. I was invited to come and work for Russian channels, just one of dozens of Western producers tempted by the prospect of working in Europe’s fastest growing TV industry.

The networks I worked with were apolitical. Their mission was to churn out Russian versions of hit Westerns shows. One of the first shows I worked on was Hello-Goodbye, a Sony reality format previously produced in Holland and the United States, in which a presenter talks to passengers greeting and bidding farewell to each other in Moscow shiny new Domodedovo airport. There were stories about lovers saying goodbye as one left to work in San Francisco; lads off for a dirty weekend in Thailand; a secretary waiting for her boss, whom she is secretly in love with, to return from a business trip to London. An airport might seem a mundane setting for a Western audience, but for a country that had been closed to foreign travel until just over a decade ago, and where flying was still a luxury available largely to the growing but still small middle class, the show was full of social ambition. It showcased the new, globalized Russia, in a bright new airport in what seemed like a bright, “emerging” nation.

This Western model didn’t always go according to plan. When the entertainment network TNT, for example, made the Russian version of The Apprentice, the show flopped. The premise of the show is to reward the self-confident and self-assertive business mind. But in Russia, it is the grey apparatchik who is celebrated, while the independent, bright entrepreneurs end up in prison or exiled. The underlying ideology of the show was irrelevant in Putin’s Russia.

Plenty of other formats were more successful. Dancing on Ice tapped into Russia’s love affair with ice skating; reality shows like Survivor, which are based on humiliating contestants in extreme conditions, were hits in a country where being bullied by the authorities and the weather is the norm.

Then there was the television, which I never worked on, with a more sinister mission: political-psychological control. The approach could be deeply counterintuitive. NTV, for example, one of the country’s biggest networks, doesn’t try to pretend Russia is a rosy place like Soviet channels used to do—which is also how they lost credibility with viewers. Quite the opposite: It shows non-stop horror stories about how dangerous the country is, encouraging the viewer to look to the “strong hand” of the Kremlin for protection. Even supposedly “science-based” programs are used for manipulative effect. The most expensive documentary ever shown on Russian television aired in 2009 and was called Plesen (“Mold”). It argued that mold is taking over the Earth—an invisible but omnipresent enemy whose evil spores have been invading our lives, causing death and disease. When the film aired it caused a panic, with people running out to buy anti-mold machines and calling into the network from all over the country, asking for help.

There was another spate of prime-time documentaries about “psychological weapons.” One was The Call of the Void, which aired in 2009 and featured current secret service men who informed the audience about the new psychic weapons they had developed. The Russian military, the program claimed, employed “sleepers,” psychics who can go into a trance and enter the world’s collective unconscious, and from there penetrate the minds of foreign statesmen to uncover their nefarious designs. One had entered the mind of President George W. Bush, they said, and then reconfigured the intentions of one of his advisers so that whatever hideous plan the United States had hatched failed to come off. The message was clear: If the secret service can see into the U.S. president’s mind, they can definitely see into yours; the state is everywhere, watching your every thought.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/putin-russia-tv-113960.html

[Infinite_limit]

Meanwhile in America news. We know who shot down the plane

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59513549.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Putin grabbed control of the 4 main media outlets for the former USSR in 2000. There is an excellent piece from a former Russian media executive over at politico. Part of critical thinking is vetting sources.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/putin-russia-tv-113960.html

Eyup. The propaganda efforts of the Russian government are pretty impressive, and quite effective.

I view it as akin to creating a Frankenstein monster though. If one keeps that many people in ignorance and lie to them, what happens when they find out they have been lied to?

[RandomGuy]

Correct. America is the least credible 1st World nation on the planet: junk food, light beer, shitty cars. Should I go on?

Soooo, what do you make of the fact that Russia actually has an official propaganda department with full government control of media?

Thats more credible?

[Winehole23]

A leading Russian opposition politician, former Deputy Prime Minister Boris Nemtsov, has been shot dead in Moscow, Russian officials say.


An unidentified attacker in a car shot Mr Nemtsov four times in the back as he crossed a bridge in view of the Kremlin, police say.


He died hours after appealing for support for a march on Sunday in Moscow against the war in Ukraine.


Russian President Vladimir Putin has condemned the murder, the Kremlin says.


In a recent interview, Mr Nemtsov had said he feared Mr Putin would have him killed because of his opposition to the war in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061

[boutons_deux]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061

Putin says he will personally lead the investigation into this murder! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[boutons_deux]

Russian Authorities Say Fellow Opposition Members May Have Killed Boris Nemtsov

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/world/europe/russian-authorities-say-fellow-opposition-members-may-have-killed-boris-nemtsov.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

... who pays the salaries of "Russian Authorities" ? :lol