Still waiting for posters to name me 10 players better than Kevin Love in the league,

[HemisfairArena]

and I'll spot you LeBron, Durant, and Davis. Give me 7 more players that are better than a 26 and 12 player at the age of 25 in the league.

[scanry]

Curry, Westbrook, Griffin, Harden, Lillard, Rose (if he's healthy), George (if he's healthy). Give Kawhi a year or two and he'll surpasses the stat padder tbh.

What's embarrassing is that a 38 yr old Duncan is still better than the stat padder.

[Mal]

How can you measure not playing defense and being unclutch ? 25/12 are empty stats.

[smaka]

He is the best no D stat padder, I'll give you that.
But hell no is he top 10 player in the league. :lol

[dg7md]

He's a solid player, but clearly not a winner or a franchise player if he couldn't even find a way to take the Wolves to a playoffs in his tenure. Yeah the West is hard, but any player of "top 10" status will and can lead a team to a playoff berth, regardless of the team in question. Top 20, though, for sure.

The T'Wolves have many issues for sure, but their roster is hardly one that I'd consider one of the worsts ever. Love should have taken to the playoffs at least once or twice. I know that it's seldom the fault of one player, but "top 10" players should have a way of making their teammates better in some respect.

[RsxPiimp]

He's Top 10 last season, this coming year probably not with production projected to take a bit of a hit in Cleveland.

Lebron
Durant
Paul
Westbrook
Dwight
Griffin
George

That's 8. You can put Love and Davis to fill the spots.

[Raven]

better at what? define what you are looking for first.

[LkrFan]

Offensively, you'll be hard pressed. But defensively, you could probably name at least 3:lol:lol

[djohn2oo8]

He's Top 10 last season, this coming year probably not with production projected to take a bit of a hit in Cleveland.

Lebron
Durant
Paul
Westbrook
Dwight
Griffin
George

That's 8. You can put Love and Davis to fill the spots.

Crofl putting George in the top 10. Are you stoned?

[RsxPiimp]

Crofl putting George in the top 10. Are you stoned?

He's a two way player, which is rare for a wing player nowadays.


Should I put Harden over him?:lmao

[djohn2oo8]

He's a two way player, which is rare for a wing player nowadays.


Should I put Harden over him?:lmao

George is horrific on offense. 21 points on 17 shots to the tune of 42% shooting.

[djohn2oo8]

Yes Harden is better than George. Offensively.

[RsxPiimp]

Harden isn't any better, unless you only count regular season production. Matter of fact, last year Harden shot worse in the playoffs for one (37%):lol and George faced tougher defense with Miami and Washington. Their percentage as a matter of fact isn't even that far off. The minor discrepancy in PPG during the regular season comes in FT's, where Harden gets a good amount 9 trips to the line compared to PG's 5.8.


I'd give the slight edge to Harden offensively, but it isn't a gap that you make it out to be :lol. George at least plays excellent defense while Harden is a huge liability on that end. Given the minimal increase of production you get from Harden, it would be stupid to take him over someone who has an astonishing depth of all-around game.

[djohn2oo8]

Harden isn't any better, unless you only count regular season production. Matter of fact, last year Harden shot worse in the playoffs for one (37%):lol and George faced tougher defense with Miami and Washington. Their percentage as a matter of fact isn't even that far off. The minor discrepancy in PPG during the regular season comes in FT's, where Harden gets a good amount 9 trips to the line compared to PG's 5.8.


I'd give the slight edge to Harden offensively, but it isn't a gap that you make it out to be :lol. George at least plays excellent defense while Harden is a huge liability on that end. Given the minimal increase of production you get from Harden, it would be stupid to take him over someone who has an astonishing depth of all-around game.


1. Harden is top 5 in offensive Win shares, so no he's not "slightly" better on offense. George isn't even top 20. Harden has been top 5 in win shares back to back years.
2. Harden is Top 6 in Win shares per 48 minutes, George is 16th.
3. Offensive rating, george is not top 20.
4. George has a higher usage rate than Harden, and against East competition, he still is far less efficient.
5. No it isn't just free throws. Harden shoots 51% on 2 point attempts, George shoots 45%. Harden assisted on 27% of player makes while he was on the floor, George assisted on 17%, so not only does that say Harden is the better playmaker, George can't even properly dribble or create space to set up his teammates.

6. Yes Harden needs to show up in the playoffs, he is capable.

[djohn2oo8]

Oh, and top 5 MVP voting.

[benefactor]

OP...

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1959407_396691243814545_7472919233146308274_n.jpg? oh=d1bc3768ca06a82ab0cbfc1b89ecc1a6&oe=547B3C2D

[Arcadian]

At this point, I would hesitate to include Howard in the top 10.

He was always a bitch and a mental faggot with a retarded low-post game for someone of his size. But now that he's past his physical prime, he ain't shit.

[Cry Havoc]

Curry, Westbrook, Griffin, Harden, Lillard, Rose (if he's healthy), George (if he's healthy). Give Kawhi a year or two and he'll surpasses the stat padder tbh.

What's embarrassing is that a 38 yr old Duncan is still better than the stat padder.

Did you seriously list Harden. :lol Harden isn't even a fucking D-League player on defense. He's that bad. Give me the guy who gets 25 and 12 over the guy who gets 25 and 4 any fucking day of the week. I mean, Harden isn't even that much better of a scorer than Love. They both put up around 25 last season.

I'd take Love over Lillard, Harden, Rose (because when has dude been healthy?), and Westbrook, team dependent. Although Love could be a mental trainwreck like Russ in the postseason -- we'll see how that all shakes out.

[Cry Havoc]

1. Harden is top 5 in offensive Win shares, so no he's not "slightly" better on offense. George isn't even top 20. Harden has been top 5 in win shares back to back years.
2. Harden is Top 6 in Win shares per 48 minutes, George is 16th.
3. Offensive rating, george is not top 20.
4. George has a higher usage rate than Harden, and against East competition, he still is far less efficient.
5. No it isn't just free throws. Harden shoots 51% on 2 point attempts, George shoots 45%. Harden assisted on 27% of player makes while he was on the floor, George assisted on 17%, so not only does that say Harden is the better playmaker, George can't even properly dribble or create space to set up his teammates.

6. Yes Harden needs to show up in the playoffs, he is capable.

I notice you didn't mention the word "defense" once in this entire post. :lol George is great because he's a two-way player.

Harden might be the most one-way player in basketball outside of Kobe. He's really fucking lucky he's played in front of Ibaka and Howard his entire career, two of the best rim protectors in the league.

[djohn2oo8]

I notice you didn't mention the word "defense" once in this entire post. :lol George is great because he's a two-way player.

Harden might be the most one-way player in basketball outside of Kobe. He's really fucking lucky he's played in front of Ibaka and Howard his entire career, two of the best rim protectors in the league.
Maybe if you read my original post of Harden being better offensively but not defensively, and Rsxpimp responding like a retard, you could grasp the stats.

[Cry Havoc]

Best players in the NBA right now assuming 100% healthy:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. George
3a. Cp3
4. Rose (we'll see, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though)
5. Curry
6. Griffin
7. Love (interchangable with 6 tbh)
8. Davis (Could move up to as high as 3rd or 4th this year)
9. Melo
10. ???? Could be Harden, could be Howard, could be Kawhi at some point. I honestly think we're going to see a monster season from Boogie.

[djohn2oo8]

:lmao George is not better than Griffin

[Cry Havoc]

Maybe if you read my original post of Harden being better offensively but not defensively, and Rsxpimp responding like a retard, you could grasp the stats.

George had a really rocky 2nd half to the season. Don't think it should count against his long term offensive prognosis. That Pacers team was mentally broken and limped through to the ECF on George's play basically alone with a few contributions from Lance and West.

I'm fine with the stats. I'm also fine with, you know, discussing the topic of the thread. Which is who are the top 10 players in the League.

[djohn2oo8]

George does nothing on offense that makes him a top 10 player. Dude gets overrated like crazy just because he played next to Lance Stephenson.

[Cry Havoc]

:lmao George is not better than Griffin

Debatable at the very least. George is a very good offensive player and an elite defensive player. Griffin is an elite offensive player and an average to below average defensive player. George obviously isn't better NOW because his leg is in two pieces, and who knows if he'll ever be the same again.

Griffin's impressed the hell out of me. I love his game. But he's still completely fucking lost on defense. George impacts both sides of the ball. If Kawhi plays next season like he did in the Finals, he'll be right around top 5 in the league as well. Long, athletic, two way players that can get stops on d and score from anywhere are the future of the NBA.

[Cry Havoc]

George does nothing on offense that makes him a top 10 player. Dude gets overrated like crazy just because he played next to Lance Stephenson.

Holy shit, could you be more of a hater? :lmao

Paul George 21.7 PPG
Lance Stephenson 13.8 PPG

Yeah, George is really just getting towed in Stephenson's wake. :lmao

Great defense getting completely ignored in Houston like usual. :lol

[KL2]

KD doesn't play defense, an occasional block that goes out of bounds right back to the team and a steal, that's it. Ibaka is their real MVP, anybody gets burned, there he is at the rim. And Ibaka doesn't even have to block shots, just be there, intimidation goes a looong way with shot blocking. A once easy layup/dunk now becomes a tough angled layup high off the glass. Or they won't even attempt it, instead a team will go into jump shooting mode.

That's key to beating teams, take away all high % shots with your shot blockers, give them low % shots, teams have used it for years against SA.

[djohn2oo8]

Debatable at the very least. George is a very good offensive player and an elite defensive player. Griffin is an elite offensive player and an average to below average defensive player. George obviously isn't better NOW because his leg is in two pieces, and who knows if he'll ever be the same again.

Griffin's impressed the hell out of me. I love his game. But he's still completely fucking lost on defense. George impacts both sides of the ball. If Kawhi plays next season like he did in the Finals, he'll be right around top 5 in the league as well. Long, athletic, two way players that can get stops on d and score from anywhere are the future of the NBA.
No it is not debateable at all. Griffin is an efficient anchor to his team. George can't even dribble and chucks the ball at a 42% pace and is not effcient at all.

[Cry Havoc]

KD doesn't play defense, an occasional block that goes out of bounds right back to the team and a steal, that's it. Ibaka is their real MVP, anybody gets burned, there he is at the rim. And Ibaka doesn't even have to block shots, just be there, intimidation goes a looong way with shot blocking. A once easy layup/dunk now becomes a tough angled layup high off the glass. Or they won't even attempt it, instead a team will go into jump shooting mode.

That's key to beating teams, take away all high % shots with your shot blockers, give them low % shots, teams have used it for years against SA.

KD has actually become an adequate defender. Not good, and certainly not better than LeBron as the stats would suggest, but he knows how to stay in front of his man. Ibaka is a very good rim protector but I have overall misgivings about his ability to work well when the other team has weapons that stretch the D. It was no fluke that the Spurs opened up the floor in game 5 and absolutely eviscerated the "elite" defense of OKC. Ibaka is only good when a smaller guy is driving at him. I think he's really weak on rotations that are away from the rim and can be exploited.

Back on topic, KD has improved on defense by leaps and bounds -- which is easy to do when you really suck at it. But he's still the MVP of that team. Take him out and they'd be first round fodder in the West instead of threats to lose to LeBron in the Finals every year.

[Cry Havoc]

No it is not debateable at all. Griffin is an efficient anchor to his team. George can't even dribble and chucks the ball at a 42% pace and is not effcient at all.

:lmao Anchor? Wtf who has EVER called Griffin the anchor for the Clippers when they have DEANDRE FUCKING JORDAN guarding the post, one of the best shot blockers in the league? Meanwhile on offense, Griffin has the best PG in the league feeding him. Man, life's rough. :lol

:lmao I suppose Asik was the anchor for the Rockets last season. :lol :lol :lol

By comparison, George had to a carry a broken shell of a team last season on both sides of the ball since Hibbert decided to apparently get lost in a fugue state. He's an 83% career free throw shooter, well into the realm of what good shooters shoot. The 2nd best player on his team in the playoffs was a dude who made more headlines blowing in another dude's ear than with his play OR a broken down version of David West.

But do go ahead and compare post players with wing players some more for FG%. TOSB Duncan shot 49% from the field last season, worst of his career, which obviously means Harden is a chucking scrub. :lol

[djohn2oo8]

Holy shit, could you be more of a hater? :lmao

Paul George 21.7 PPG
Lance Stephenson 13.8 PPG

Yeah, George is really just getting towed in Stephenson's wake. :lmao

Great defense getting completely ignored in Houston like usual. :lol

PG - 21ppg On 17 shots, 42% FG, 45% on 2PT attempts, 3.5 Assists, 6.8 Rebounds

LS- 13.8 PPG, 49% FG, 54% on 2PT attempts, 4.6 assists, 7.2 Rebounds.

Oh, and LeBron didn't even need to spend most of his time guarding George. Wonder why. You can see who is more efficient.

[djohn2oo8]

:lmao Anchor? Wtf who has EVER called Griffin the anchor for the Clippers when they have DEANDRE FUCKING JORDAN guarding the post, one of the best shot blockers in the league? Meanwhile on offense, Griffin has the best PG in the league feeding him. Man, life's rough. :lol

:lmao I suppose Asik was the anchor for the Rockets last season. :lol :lol :lol

By comparison, George had to a carry a broken shell of a team last season on both sides of the ball since Hibbert decided to apparently get lost in a fugue state. He's an 83% career free throw shooter, well into the realm of what good shooters shoot. The 2nd best player on his team in the playoffs was a dude who made more headlines blowing in another dude's ear than with his play OR a broken down version of David West.

But do go ahead and compare post players with wing players some more for FG%. TOSB Duncan shot 49% from the field last season, worst of his career, which obviously means Harden is a chucking scrub. :lol

You obviously don't understand what efficient anchor means. Not even going to debate this scrub take.

[Cry Havoc]

PG - 21ppg On 17 shots, 42% FG, 45% on 2PT attempts, 3.5 Assists, 6.8 Rebounds

LS- 13.8 PPG, 49% FG, 54% on 2PT attempts, 4.6 assists, 7.2 Rebounds.

Oh, and LeBron didn't even need to spend most of his time guarding George. Wonder why. You can see who is more efficient.

You've made a lot of posts in this thread talking about the 10 best players in the league.

For some reason, you haven't mentioned defense once unless prompted. That's odd, don't you think?

You would think if Lance was so elite on offense with such a good coaching staff that they would find him a way to get the ball more often. Oh wait, that didn't happen. :lol

[Cry Havoc]

You obviously don't understand what efficient anchor means. Not even going to debate this scrub take.

Jordan scored 11 points per game last year on 68% shooting. Therefore he's a "more efficient anchor" than Griffin who's a chucking scrub. :lol

[Cry Havoc]

PG - 21ppg On 17 shots, 42% FG, 45% on 2PT attempts, 3.5 Assists, 6.8 Rebounds

LS- 13.8 PPG, 49% FG, 54% on 2PT attempts, 4.6 assists, 7.2 Rebounds.

Oh, and LeBron didn't even need to spend most of his time guarding George. Wonder why. You can see who is more efficient.

George scores 21.7 on 17 and you call that terrible.

I notice how you didn't put Lance's shot attempts into the equation. Hmm, wonder why that is?

Oh. Because he's scored 13.8 on 11.2 FGAs.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[djohn2oo8]

You've made a lot of posts in this thread talking about the 10 best players in the league.

For some reason, you haven't mentioned defense once unless prompted. That's odd, don't you think?

You would think if Lance was so elite on offense with such a good coaching staff that they would find him a way to get the ball more often. Oh wait, that didn't happen. :lol

Yet George had a usage rate of 28.3% and had an offensive win share of 4.4 :lmao

[Cry Havoc]

Yet George had a usage rate of 28.3% and had an offensive win share of 4.4 :lmao

Rocket fan still talking about offense only. You let us know when that gets you out of the first round. :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Clipper Nation]

I like George but "George > Griffin" is up there with "Cum > Montana" for dumbest takes of 2014 :lol

[djohn2oo8]

George scores 21.7 on 17 and you call that terrible.

I notice how you didn't put Lance's shot attempts into the equation. Hmm, wonder why that is?

Oh. Because he's scored 13.8 on 11.2 FGAs.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

49% Shooting. So, if he puts up 11 shots, which we will say are 2PA, and makes 5, or 6 out of 11, that is 10 and 12 points right there, when he produces 13. Therefore he makes half his shots and produces the expected results, meaning if you increase his shot attempts, he will continue to produce efficiently. :lol Your takes

[djohn2oo8]

Rocket fan still talking about offense only. You let us know when that gets you out of the first round. :lol :lol :lol :lol


You're the one who said George is a two way player when he is horrible on offense. That's not a 2 way player, just like Harden isn't.

[Cry Havoc]

49% Shooting. So, if he puts up 11 shots, which we will say are 2PA, and makes 5, or 6 out of 11, that is 10 and 12 points right there, when he produces 13. Therefore he makes half his shots and produces the expected results, meaning if you increase his shot attempts, he will continue to produce efficiently. :lol Your takes

Evidently Rocket fan thinks that increasing shot frequency will not affect the quality of shots taken, nor drive down the shot percentage at all.

This just in, Kobe could take 80 shots per game and still average 44% for his career. :lol :lol :lol

Your basketball knowledge. :lol :lol :lol

[Cry Havoc]

I like George but "George > Griffin" is up there with "Cum > Montana" for dumbest takes of 2014 :lol

Clipper fan getting his Clipper fan on. Griffin is a shit defender. Sorry to say. Like his game but he's a lost little boy on D.

[Cry Havoc]

You're the one who said George is a two way player when he is horrible on offense. That's not a 2 way player, just like Harden isn't.

22PPG on a team with no other viable threats in the starting lineup is horrible on offense. K. :lol

George would be your 2nd best offensive player if he joined you today.

:lol :lol :lol

[djohn2oo8]

Evidently Rocket fan thinks that increasing shot frequency will not affect the quality of shots taken, nor drive down the shot percentage at all.

This just in, Kobe could take 80 shots per game and still average 44% for his career. :lol :lol :lol

Your basketball knowledge. :lol :lol :lol

Stephenson increase his 2PT attempts from 5.3 to 8.8 last year, his shooting percentage actually going up from 52% to 54%, when you break that down for dummies means he became more efficient with an increased amount of shot attempts :lol

[djohn2oo8]

22PPG on a team with no other viable threats in the starting lineup is horrible on offense. K. :lol

George would be your 2nd best offensive player if he joined you today.

:lol :lol :lol

He only took 17 shot attempts last year, that is not an insane about to be that inefficient.

And When he is less efficient than Harden and Howard. Christ you need to take remedial math :lol

[Cry Havoc]

Stephenson increase his 2PT attempts from 5.3 to 8.8 last year, his shooting percentage actually going up from 52% to 54%, when you break that down for dummies means he became more efficient with an increased amount of shot attempts :lol

Ah, so obviously if he took 100 shots per game it would be guaranteed to continually increase his efficiency! Lance Stephenson is suddenly the best offensive player in the league!

:lmao Dude. You can extrapolate imaginary statistics all you want. It doesn't mean anything.

[Cry Havoc]

He only took 17 shot attempts last year, that is not an insane about to be that inefficient.

And When he is less efficient than Harden and Howard. Christ you need to take remedial math :lol

Again, on a shit team with no other offensive threats. Howard would be the 2nd best player on the Pacers on offense by a WIDE margin, and that's saying something. :lol

It's almost like you think these things occur in a vacuum and someone with John Stockton on his team would get the same looks as a guy who's got George Hill running point. :lol

[rogues]

Normally, when I see Cry Faggot trying to talk basketball and not post like a typical flamboyant libtard I skip over his retarded posts altogether..but the ones in this thread are on par with Frizzle's.

[djohn2oo8]

Also, Stephenson's quality of shots were better, averaging a distance of 12.2 ft compared to george chucking at 15.8 ft :lol

[Cry Havoc]

Also, Stephenson's quality of shots were better, averaging a distance of 12.2 ft compared to george chucking at 15.8 ft :lol

Gee, it's almost like teams are teeing off on George because they know no one else in that starting lineup is going to do anything to hurt them. :lol

[Cry Havoc]

And nowhere in this thread did I say George was an elite offensive player (despite scoring 20+ppg). I said Blake *was*. So I'm not sure why that issue is being debated. Griffin is obviously a more dominating offensive presence than George. He's just shit on D.

[djohn2oo8]

Again, on a shit team with no other offensive threats. Howard would be the 2nd best player on the Pacers on offense by a WIDE margin, and that's saying something. :lol

It's almost like you think these things occur in a vacuum and someone with John Stockton on his team would get the same looks as a guy who's got George Hill running point. :lol

And shot a lower percentage than Stephenson, Hibbert, Hill, and David West. George is a hell of an offensive threat himself :lol

[Cry Havoc]

And shot a lower percentage than Stephenson, Hibbert, Hill, and David West. George is a hell of an offensive threat himself :lol

Stephenson - bench player. If the East's starters are shit, how good do you think their bench is? We'll have a much better idea of the kind of player Lance is this season. As of now, if you want to anoint him as an elite offensive player, that's your call. He had a good season last year as the 6th man, but that's a far cry from being a primary option.

Hibbert and West are bigs. We've been over this. Duncan shot a higher percentage on offense last year than Harden, but obviously Harden is a more potent offensive threat. Although as of now your argument means that Duncan is better on offense than Harden. :lol

Hill took an average of 8 shots per game last year for a total of 10 points. :lol Not even sure why he's in the conversation. :lol

[djohn2oo8]

And nowhere in this thread did I say George was an elite offensive player (despite scoring 20+ppg). I said Blake *was*. So I'm not sure why that issue is being debated. Griffin is obviously a more dominating offensive presence than George. He's just shit on D.

You flat out said George > Griffin :lol

[Cry Havoc]

You flat out said George > Griffin :lol

Yes. As a player (and tbh only if he comes back at 100% obviously). Not on offense. Try to keep up. I get that you think offense = basketball but that's not the case.

To spell it out for you:

Offense: BG 9/10 PG 7.5/10
Defense: BG 4/10 PG 9/10

Is that easier to understand? You do realize that this thread isn't just about scoring ability, right?

[djohn2oo8]

Yes. As a player (and tbh only if he comes back at 100% obviously). Not on offense. Try to keep up. I get that you think offense = basketball but that's not the case.

To spell it out for you:

Offense: BG 9/10 PG 7.5/10
Defense: BG 4/10 PG 9/10

Is that easier to understand?

:lol What a terrible post. Just because he is an elite defender doesn't make him the better player.

[djohn2oo8]

You use a rating scale (1/10) to determine who is better? :lmao

[Cry Havoc]

:lol What a terrible post. Just because he is an elite defender doesn't make him the better player.

No, of course not. The fact that Blake looks like a lost child on defense is what makes George the better player.

But you know, you're probably right. After all, what's the saying? "Offense wins championships"? That's the saying, right?

[djohn2oo8]

No, of course not. The fact that Blake looks like a lost child on defense is what makes George the better player.

But you know, you're probably right. After all, what's the saying? "Offense wins championships"? That's the saying, right?

You make Frizzle look like nostradamus.

[Cry Havoc]

You use a rating scale (1/10) to determine who is better? :lmao

Yeah, it's pathetic that I need to break it down on such basic, imprecise terms because when I typed "I didn't say George is a better offensive player than Griffin" you immediately come back with the "BUT YOU SAID GEORGE WAS BETTER" rebuttal. :lol Hilarious. Go back and read. I tried to spell it out for you with words, but evidently that was too much for you to handle, so I used basic math. Sorry I had to do that to you.

[Cry Havoc]

You make Frizzle look like nostradamus.

Offense wins championships.

[Cry Havoc]

And nowhere in this thread did I say George was an elite offensive player (despite scoring 20+ppg). I said Blake *was*. So I'm not sure why that issue is being debated. Griffin is obviously a more dominating offensive presence than George. He's just shit on D.


You flat out said George > Griffin :lol

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

The power of comprehension. :lmao

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Stephen Jackson averaged over 20 points a game in Charlotte..

Not very impressive stat-padding on a shit team.

They were supposed to have all the pieces to make the playoffs this year.. couldn't even reach .500

[Cry Havoc]

Stephen Jackson averaged over 20 points a game in Charlotte..

Not very impressive stat-padding on a shit team.

They were supposed to have all the pieces to make the playoffs this year.. couldn't even reach .500

Being the best player and an elite defender on a Conference Finals team is pretty impressive though, from a single season standpoint.

[skut_farkus]

He's just another monta ellis, kevin martin, or David Lee stat padder on shitty team.

Lebron
Kd
Paul
Howard
Curry
Westbrook
Griffin
Aldridge
Melo
Parker

That's 10 players I'd rather have leading my team over love, in no order

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

You make Frizzle look like nostradamus.

Yeah, and you make MJ look like Kobe you inbred fucking twat.

[Cry Havoc]

He's just another monta ellis, kevin martin, or David Lee stat padder on shitty team.

None of whom comb the glass like Love. Defensive rebounds are incredibly valuable yet somehow underrated still in today's NBA. Lee is FAR worse than Love on D (as in, the worst big in the league defensively who starts), and can't spread the floor on offense.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol at Blake being a "lost little boy" on defense.... he's not great, but he's a more-or-less average rim protector, and he did show some flashes here and there on the defensive end towards the end of last season.... he's not Harden or Love....

[Clipper Nation]

Yeah, and you make MJ look like Kobe you imbred fucking twat.

:lol Kobe going along with other losers like KD and CPIII with the Frizzle shit.
This post makes no sense, much like your takes :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

This post makes no sense, much like your takes :lol

tl;dr

[Clipper Nation]

Also, if you're going to call someone "inbred," you should at least know how to spell it :lol

[skut_farkus]

Having a "pf" who hangs around the 3pt line on offense Isn't my idea of properly spreading the floor. And people wonder why he has never made the playoffs :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Also, if you're going to call someone "inbred," you should at least know how to spell it :lol

Way to edit my quote to slay yourself :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Way to edit my quote to slay yourself :lol
I didn't edit shit, that's what you originally posted:

http://i.imgur.com/t4cyCTZ.png

[skut_farkus]

You got griffin, aldridge and even Davis this last year who are probably some of the better mid range bigs in the game. Griffin has came a long ways this year and no doubt in my mind is a better player than love on both ends. That goes for aldridge and Davis too.

[Cry Havoc]

:lol at Blake being a "lost little boy" on defense.... he's not great, but he's a more-or-less average rim protector, and he did show some flashes here and there on the defensive end towards the end of last season.... he's not Harden or Love....

Eh, that's probably true. Compared to George though, he's a couple of echelons lower and I still rate him below average on D. That said, Blake has been improving on both sides of the ball so I could definitely see him being a "decent" defender this year. It's going to be a bit tough to tell though with Deandre protecting the rim, but I'll watch him closely this year to see how he moves. I think his off-ball rotations are probably what needs the most work, if he establishes defensive position against a man with the ball he seems to be OK.

There are times though, he gets completely lost. I don't think the instinctive reflex of when and where to rotate/cover/hedge has kicked in for him yet. That's more of a mental thing, so we'll see if he makes that leap.

[skut_farkus]

Love gets alot of rebounds because he is superior at boxing out. But he is not good at contesting shots, man to man, or even fronting his opponent. His foot work on the defensive end is that of a statue

[Cry Havoc]

You got griffin, aldridge and even Davis this last year who are probably some of the better mid range bigs in the game. Griffin has came a long ways this year and no doubt in my mind is a better player than love on both ends. That goes for aldridge and Davis too.

I think THIS season is the one that Davis makes the leap into superstardom. Dude is a time bomb waiting to detonate on the League and with talent around him he's bound to win rings, tbh.

As for Aldridge, yeah he's got a better mid-range but Blake looks far more explosive in and around the rim. To be fair he's probably a top 3 player in that regard, but it can't be discounted. The mid-range he's found makes his game great, but it's not his best feature. Aldridge needs to learn to dominate inside and play at the rim to make that next step as a player. In that regard, I'll take Love, since he's got range all over the court, is a legitimate threat to score at all times, and cleans the glass just as well as LMA despite being worse on defense. I think Love will benefit from a system like Cleveland's and will probably be a better defender this year than at any point in his career.

[skut_farkus]

Love is a solid 3rd option. Possibly 2nd now that he is with lebron. Nothing wrong with that, but he is just over rated

[Cry Havoc]

Love gets alot of rebounds because he is superior at boxing out. But he is not good at contesting shots, man to man, or even fronting his opponent. His foot work on the defensive end is that of a statue

He's not good, but I wouldn't stay he's terrible. Just bad/well below average.

[-21-]

Off the top of my head, in no specific order:

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Dwight Howard
6. Anthony Davis
7. Blake Griffin
8. Stephen Curry
9. Carmelo Anthony
10. Tony Parker

That's ten right there. I could even add in a couple more players like James Harden, Damian Lillard, LaMarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan, or Kawhi Leonard.

[DMC]

Harden isn't any better, unless you only count regular season production. Matter of fact, last year Harden shot worse in the playoffs for one (37%):lol and George faced tougher defense with Miami and Washington. Their percentage as a matter of fact isn't even that far off. The minor discrepancy in PPG during the regular season comes in FT's, where Harden gets a good amount 9 trips to the line compared to PG's 5.8.


I'd give the slight edge to Harden offensively, but it isn't a gap that you make it out to be :lol. George at least plays excellent defense while Harden is a huge liability on that end. Given the minimal increase of production you get from Harden, it would be stupid to take him over someone who has an astonishing depth of all-around game.

Since Kevin has never seen a playoff game, you can only count RS production.

[DMC]

Love gets alot of rebounds because he is superior at boxing out. But he is not good at contesting shots, man to man, or even fronting his opponent. His foot work on the defensive end is that of a statue

As young as he is, he doesn't get up and down very well. I think he's got knee issues. He'll work for some extra possessions, but he won't be the one who forced the miss.

[-21-]

Love is a solid 3rd option. Possibly 2nd now that he is with lebron. Nothing wrong with that, but he is just over rated
I agree, I've said this before. Kevin Love isn't the type of guy who can win a championship while being the number one option. With the way his game is evolving in addition to playing with LeBron, there's a good chance he goes the Chris Bosh route.


He's not good, but I wouldn't stay he's terrible. Just bad/well below average.

If he prioritizes getting in rebounding position over contesting a shot, it doesn't matter if his defensive skills are terrible or just below average. What he needs is a coach that can convince him to play defense first and go for the rebound second.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

I didn't edit shit, that's what you originally posted:

http://i.imgur.com/t4cyCTZ.png

Clearly edited :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Clearly edited :lol
Frizzle trying to get a "sick burn" in, failing, editing it out and denying it :lol

[spurraider21]

i gave you 10, so did many others. you are reaching

[spurraider21]

George is horrific on offense. 21 points on 17 shots to the tune of 42% shooting.


Yes Harden is better than George. Offensively.
i think another big factor is the pace of the teams. the rockets play much faster than indiana does. i agree though, strictly on the offensive end, Harden is the better player. he's a better playmaker than George and is more efficient, though a lot of his efficiency comes from ref baiting. in the end it works for him so w/e.

If Paul George played on an offense that ran like Houston I think his numbers would swell a bit. his injury changes the whole dynamic though. plus their crappy offense got worse with Lance leaving

[rogues]

Frizzle trying to get a "sick burn" in, failing, editing it out and denying it :lol
:lol

[spurraider21]

i have come to the conclusion that Cry Havoc does not watch the clippers

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Frizzle trying to get a "sick burn" in, failing, editing it out and denying it :lol

You do realize if I edited my post, there would be an "edited by" at the bottom, right?

[RsxPiimp]

1. Harden is top 5 in offensive Win shares, so no he's not "slightly" better on offense. George isn't even top 20. Harden has been top 5 in win shares back to back years.
2. Harden is Top 6 in Win shares per 48 minutes, George is 16th.
3. Offensive rating, george is not top 20.
4. George has a higher usage rate than Harden, and against East competition, he still is far less efficient.
5. No it isn't just free throws. Harden shoots 51% on 2 point attempts, George shoots 45%. Harden assisted on 27% of player makes while he was on the floor, George assisted on 17%, so not only does that say Harden is the better playmaker, George can't even properly dribble or create space to set up his teammates.

6. Yes Harden needs to show up in the playoffs, he is capable.

One of the most useless post in this thread. The premise was to value a player which isn't exclusive to offensive production. I like how you keep bringing up offense when it was brought to your attention, George is a two way player that particularly values defense...:lol


Harden stans are justifying his monumental collapse in the playoffs for 3 straight years :lol

[Clipper Nation]

You do realize if I edited my post, there would be an "edited by" at the bottom, right?
There is one, dumbass :lol

http://i.imgur.com/OthT2mD.png

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

There is one, dumbass :lol

http://i.imgur.com/OthT2mD.png

Because I changed "imbred" to "inbred".

[spurraider21]

Because I changed "imbred" to "inbred".
CN's snapshot says "edited 2 hours ago" and right now it says "edited 1 minute" ago. you are a failure at this

inb4 you respond with ":lol raiders... :lol liberal"

[Cry Havoc]

i have come to the conclusion that Cry Havoc does not watch the clippers

Cool story, bro. I probably watched them more than you did this year.

[spurraider21]

Cool story, bro. I probably watched them more than you did this year.
:lmao i probably watched 70 of the clippers 82 regular season games this year tbh.

[Cry Havoc]

:lmao i probably watched 70 of the clippers 82 regular season games this year tbh.

Then you would know that Blake Griffin has a defensive rating of 103. On a team with very good defensive players. :lol Know who else had a DRating of 103? David Lee. :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

CN's snapshot says "edited 2 hours ago" and right now it says "edited 1 minute" ago. you are a failure at this

inb4 you respond with ":lol raiders... :lol liberal"

:lol yeah I wanted to see how far along it would go

but :lol at you guys thinking it actually means something. taking the time to take two screenshots and post them on ST to "prove I edited a post". Good one CN :tu


oh yeah

:lol raiders
:lol liberal

[spurraider21]

Then you would know that Blake Griffin has a defensive rating of 103. On a team with very good defensive players. :lol Know who else had a DRating of 103? David Lee. :lol
Blake Griffin's defensive rating = 103.3
Tony Allen's defensive rating = 103.1

det 0.2 difference :lol

Anthony Davis = 104.3 :lmao

[Clipper Nation]

:lol yeah I wanted to see how far along it would go

but :lol at you guys thinking it actually means something.


oh yeah

:lol raiders
:lol liberal
:lol Frizzle caught red-handed and deflecting

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Blake Griffin's defensive rating = 103.3
Tony Allen's defensive rating = 103.1

det 0.2 difference :lol

Anthony Davis = 104.3 :lmao

:lol because guarding best players on the teams consistently isn't going to deflate his stats

:lmao implying Griffin is a better defender

[spurraider21]

:lol yeah I wanted to see how far along it would go

but :lol at you guys thinking it actually means something. taking the time to take two screenshots and post them on ST to "prove I edited a post". Good one CN :tu


oh yeah

:lol raiders
:lol liberal
:lol still calls me a liberal
:lol doesn't understand politics
:lol majored in political science

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lol Frizzle caught red-handed and deflecting

How long did it take for you to take those screenshots? Shouldn't you be out getting laid?

[djohn2oo8]

One of the most useless post in this thread. The premise was to value a player which isn't exclusive to offensive production. I like how you keep bringing up offense when it was brought to your attention, George is a two way player that particularly values defense...:lol


Harden stans are justifying his monumental collapse in the playoffs for 3 straight years :lol

You said Harden is slightly better than George on offense when I just posted stats that obliterated your argument. Subject is settled.

[spurraider21]

:lol because guarding best players on the teams consistently isn't going to deflate his stats

:lmao implying Griffin is a better defender
i didnt imply griffin is a better defender. i'm showing how fucking flawed it is to look at Defensive Rating. my man-crush on anthony davis is documented here

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lol still calls me a liberal
:lol doesn't understand politics
:lol majored in political science

:lol someone getting rejected from a liberal school saying I don't understand politics despite majoring in it.
:lol said 'nah' to law school cause i'll make more being a physical therapist at a top college

[spurraider21]

How long did it take for you to take those screenshots? Shouldn't you be out getting laid?
on a PC its 1 button on the keyboard to take a screenshot, on a mac its 3 buttons. its not rocket science...

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

on a PC its 1 button on the keyboard to take a screenshot, on a mac its 3 buttons. its not rocket science...

Would you take the time to do all of that? Not to mention uploading it, etc, etc

[Clipper Nation]

How long did it take for you to take those screenshots? Shouldn't you be out getting laid?
It took me about 2 seconds each.... shouldn't you be feeding your cats?

[Cry Havoc]

Blake Griffin's defensive rating = 103.3
Tony Allen's defensive rating = 103.1

det 0.2 difference :lol

Anthony Davis = 104.3 :lmao

Davis plays on a SHITTY team son, all the way around, hence why I qualified that Griffin is on a GOOD defensive team, and an elite Western Conference team. Why would you compare the two? Swap them and Blake's DR goes through the roof while Davis drops under 100. :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

It took me about 2 seconds each.... shouldn't you be feeding your cats?

Already did, and maaaan was your sister great :tu

[spurraider21]

:lol someone getting rejected from a liberal school saying I don't understand politics despite majoring in it.
:lol said 'nah' to law school cause i'll make more being a physical therapist at a top college
:lol said nah to law school because you were terrified of the LSAT, let alone the bar.
:lol claims to understand politics yet still comes to the conclusion that i'm liberal
:lol poly sci to physical therapy

[Cry Havoc]

You said Harden is slightly better than George on offense when I just posted stats that obliterated your argument. Subject is settled.

Actually you took one player being better on offense to mean he's better overall. You're right, documented and settled. :lol

[Clipper Nation]

Already did, and maaaan was your sister great :tu
I don't have a sister, tbh.... your girlfriend has a sister, though, and you're her bitch :lol

[spurraider21]

Would you take the time to do all of that? Not to mention uploading it, etc, etc
"all that"? PC has a print screen button... its command+shift+3 on a mac. if you think that's a lot of work i can see why you got scared of law school

[spurraider21]

Davis plays on a SHITTY team son, all the way around, hence why I qualified that Griffin is on a GOOD defensive team, and an elite Western Conference team. Why would you compare the two? Swap them and Blake's DR goes through the roof while Davis drops under 100. :lol
what about tony allen? he's an elite defender on an elite defensive team in the western conference playoffs

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

"all that"? PC has a print screen button... its command+shift+3 on a mac. if you think that's a lot of work i can see why you got scared of law school

Confirmed: You care about how you are perceived and how others are on a community board. Congratulations.

Keep enjoying that bachelors degree, though.

[spurraider21]

Confirmed: You care about how you are perceived and how others are on a community board. Congratulations.

Keep enjoying that bachelors degree, though.
Posts about how "he'll make more money going to a top college"

Says that i'm the one the cares about how i'm perceived.

k

[Cry Havoc]

what about tony allen? he's an elite defender on an elite defensive team in the western conference playoffs

He's also a guard and playing against the elite SGs/SFs of the conference night in night out. I'm sure he gives up a ton of points because he has to shoulder that load.

[spurraider21]

He's also a guard and playing against the elite SGs/SFs of the conference night in night out. I'm sure he gives up a ton of points because he has to shoulder that load.
i'm not going to call Griffin an elite defender... he just lacks natural length. height is one thing, but he doesn't have really long arms. he's not great, but he's come a long way and is a solid defensive player. saying "he is lost on D... look at his Defensive Rating!!!" is just flat out wrong.

[rogues]

i'm not going to call Griffin an elite defender... he just lacks natural length. height is one thing, but he doesn't have really long arms. he's not great, but he's come a long way and is a solid defensive player. saying "he is lost on D... look at his Defensive Rating!!!" is just flat out wrong.
:lol I'm a believer of advanced stats as they are useful in many discussions..but they do have their flaws..Griffin is a vastly improved defender..he was practically nonexistent on that end in college..his basketball IQ on that end has grown..

[StrengthAndHonor]

With all the winshares and other metrics Rockets fans likes to bring up, it was George who stepped up and played better in the playoffs, that includes win shares, EFG%, TS% and PER.


As an unbiased observer, I'd take George in a heartbeat. I know Curry gets a lot of flak here, but I'd also take him over Harden.

[StrengthAndHonor]

i'm not going to call Griffin an elite defender... he just lacks natural length. height is one thing, but he doesn't have really long arms. he's not great, but he's come a long way and is a solid defensive player. saying "he is lost on D... look at his Defensive Rating!!!" is just flat out wrong.


True, Blake seems to grate on everyone’s nerves so they take a shot at him every chance they get. Defensvely, he tries hard, which is a step in the right direction. Bigger guys can still give him issues and like you said, genetics have ensured he will never be a scary rim protector who deters drivers :lol


He has improved and his quickness and mobility is essential in Doc's strongside overload scheme. He'll only get better.

[Cry Havoc]

i'm not going to call Griffin an elite defender... he just lacks natural length. height is one thing, but he doesn't have really long arms. he's not great, but he's come a long way and is a solid defensive player. saying "he is lost on D... look at his Defensive Rating!!!" is just flat out wrong.

I agree actually, Griffin has become a lot better on defense, but that's not exactly saying a lot. :lol

[spurraider21]

Griffin is a shit defender. Sorry to say. Like his game but he's a lost little boy on D.


I agree actually, Griffin has become a lot better on defense
damn, he's come a long way in the past few hours tbh :lol

[Cry Havoc]

With all the winshares and other metrics Rockets fans likes to bring up, it was George who stepped up and played better in the playoffs, that includes win shares, EFG%, TS% and PER.


As an unbiased observer, I'd take George in a heartbeat. I know Curry gets a lot of flak here, but I'd also take him over Harden.

Curry is going to make a run at the best PG in the league and a top 5 player this season. He might be the best shooter I've ever seen. Dude is going to be scary.


True, Blake seems to grate on everyone’s nerves so they take a shot at him every chance they get. Defensvely, he tries hard, which is a step in the right direction. Bigger guys can still give him issues and like you said, genetics have ensured he will never be a scary rim protector who deters drivers :lol


He has improved and his quickness and mobility is essential in Doc's strongside overload scheme. He'll only get better.

I personally really enjoy watching Blake play. I don't strongly dislike him. Just don't think he's a defensive asset at this point. Still gets lost in rotation and doesn't impact the game on that side.

[Cry Havoc]

damn, he's come a long way in the past few hours tbh :lol

If you start as one of the worst defenders in the league, you can come a long way and be a shit defender still.

:lol My language was a bit overboard though. He's below average but could easily become "decent" this season with some more work.

[djohn2oo8]

With all the winshares and other metrics Rockets fans likes to bring up, it was George who stepped up and played better in the playoffs, that includes win shares, EFG%, TS% and PER.


As an unbiased observer, I'd take George in a heartbeat. I know Curry gets a lot of flak here, but I'd also take him over Harden.
Stick Indiana in the West and what seed are they?

[StrengthAndHonor]

Curry is going to make a run at the best PG in the league and a top 5 player this season. He might be the best shooter I've ever seen. Dude is going to be scary.

Yeah. when he's on. He's virtually unstoppable. I put him right next to Durant, offensively.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Stick Indiana in the West and what seed are they?
Even if they seed lower, which is a "team effort" to begin with, It doesn't change the fact that George was better than Harden in the playoffs. *Shrugs*

Just to be clear, I do believe Harden is a better offensive player but If I have to pick between the two, I like George and his overall versatility on both ends of the floor.

[100%duncan]

Parker, Manu, Duncan, Diaw, Leonard, Mills, Daye.

[Killakobe81]

Blake Griffin's defensive rating = 103.3
Tony Allen's defensive rating = 103.1

det 0.2 difference :lol

Anthony Davis = 104.3 :lmao

LOL Defensive rating ...

[HemisfairArena]

He's just another monta ellis, kevin martin, or David Lee stat padder on shitty team.

Lebron
Kd
Paul
Howard
Curry
Westbrook
Griffin
Aldridge
Melo
Parker

That's 10 players I'd rather have leading my team over love, in no order

Howard, Parker, Melo, Aldridge, Westbrook, Curry?,,,,,LMAO,,,and you don't even have Anthony Davis on your list,,,

[spurraider21]

:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

:lmao

[100%duncan]

Love over westbrook and George over Griffin are funnier

[Neurosis]

He's barely top10 on the Cavs let alone top10 in the league.

[Reck]

Not your finest thread Hemi.


Also, A lot of members threw shit at the wall that didn't stick. :lol

[Killakobe81]

Nice bounce back game by Love last night since we are trashing him still not a max player ...which I argued to death when there was talk he would sign in L.A.

[JoeTait75]

I hope I didn't post in this thread. :lol

Anyway, if you switched Love with Draymond Green the Cavaliers might never lose a game.

[TDfan2007]

:lol This thread

[ambchang]

I hope I didn't post in this thread. :lol

Anyway, if you switched Love with Draymond Green the Cavaliers might never lose a game.

No. Draymond Green, thrives in a switching moving type of offense, and the Cavs are not running that. Green is a versatile, mobile big with guard skills, like a billionaire version of Diaw, and I can't see him fitting into a Lebron-ball system.

[100%duncan]

I hope I didn't post in this thread. :lol

Anyway, if you switched Love with Draymond Green the Cavaliers might never lose a game.

Green is a product of Curry.

[Killakobe81]

No. Draymond Green, thrives in a switching moving type of offense, and the Cavs are not running that. Green is a versatile, mobile big with guard skills, like a billionaire version of Diaw, and I can't see him fitting into a Lebron-ball system.

Agree with Amb. Also taking away most of Green's play-making to have Lebron or Kyrie run the offense takes away a lot of the value Green brings. Sure you would get his defense but Green is not a spot up shooter and would not thrive in that role. Green is a play-making stretch 4 who can hit 3's but his value is as the trap release when teams double steph.

[Killakobe81]

Green is a product of Curry.

Not totally. he does benefit from the attention that he draws but Green is more important to their team than Klay. he murders teams when he plays pnr with steph or if they trap Curry. his ability to hit 3's the mid range and pass high low is a thing of beauty.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Crofl putting George in the top 10. Are you stoned?
Harden :lol

[StrengthAndHonor]

George gets overrated like crazy just because he played next to Lance Stephenson.
:lmao

[JoeTait75]

No. Draymond Green, thrives in a switching moving type of offense, and the Cavs are not running that. Green is a versatile, mobile big with guard skills, like a billionaire version of Diaw, and I can't see him fitting into a Lebron-ball system.

Which is unfortunate because I think LeBron and Kyrie- especially Kyrie- would thrive in that type of offense.

Ideally LeBron would do for the Cavaliers what Draymond does for Golden State but he has no interest in being that kind of player.

[Raven]

Green is a product of Curry.

not just him, but the whole team. he's a system player.

[Raven]

Not totally. he does benefit from the attention that he draws but Green is more important to their team than Klay. he murders teams when he plays pnr with steph or if they trap Curry. his ability to hit 3's the mid range and pass high low is a thing of beauty.

oh boy....

[Killakobe81]

oh boy....

He is. Not even saying he is the better player ....just that he is more essential to what they do. But maybe he is their 2nd best player especoally against elite teams

[100%duncan]

Not totally. he does benefit from the attention that he draws but Green is more important to their team than Klay. he murders teams when he plays pnr with steph or if they trap Curry. his ability to hit 3's the mid range and pass high low is a thing of beauty.

Dude, he is a product of Curry. He wont be as good as he was if he wasnt getting open cuts, open 3's without the gravity that Curry demands from the opposing team's defense. And his defense is overrated against real bigs who can shoot over him or overpower him :lol

[Killakobe81]

Agree curry sucks the defense but you still have to make them pay. Lebron has also has a strong gravitational pull ...but Love does not punish teams the way Green does which is the point. Curry is amazing and would be so without Green ...Green wouldnt be as effective without Curry but gets credit for thriving and developing in the role. He is like John Taylor getting the benefit of the double coverage on Jerry Rice. But i dont think he will be as bad as Alvin Harper was when he left Dallas if Green played elsewhere ... and though I hate the niners Taylor became a good player in his own right. And no it wasnt just Rice or even the Walsh system.

[Leetonidas]

OP consistently has shitty takes,,,,

[DAF86]

oh boy....

Dude, that's pretty much a given by now.

[Raven]

He is. Not even saying he is the better player ....just that he is more essential to what they do. But maybe he is their 2nd best player especoally against elite teams
oh please.

[Raven]

Dude, that's pretty much a given by now.
lol.

[DAF86]

oh boy....


oh please.


lol.

Do they charge you by the word?

[Raven]

Do they charge you by the word?

when the thesis is too dumb, yes. Klay is easily the best sg in the league and Draymond barely 10 points Green is supposed to be more important? Give me a break.

[Killakobe81]

when the thesis is too dumb, yes. Klay is easily the best sg in the league and Draymond barely 10 points Green is supposed to be more important? Give me a break.

Not a better player. Just more important to their current style. Klay is probably the top SG and Green is not the top PF or a great scorer but that doesn't mean that his role is not vitally important.

[Raven]

Not a better player. Just more important to their current style. Klay is probably the top SG and Green is not the top PF or a great scorer but that doesn't mean that his role is not vitally important.

it still doesn't work. You say draymond is helped by Curry's 3point shooting? well there has been many shooters in this era,the reason why the warriors are where they are, is because of curry AND klay. Just one, doesn't make them great, the two of them both ridiculous shooters and good to great defenders create the pairing that allow them to play the way they do. You can argue Bogut's importance but Draymond is on the same level as Harrison Barnes, both are replaceable and wouldn't do even close to the same damage as they do with the warriors. frankly, Draymond would be a nobody if even just bogut wasn't there.

[JoeTait75]

If Klay went down the Warriors would still have the depth there to make it work anyway, IMO. But if they lost Draymond, who can duplicate what he does for them?

[DAF86]

when the thesis is too dumb, yes. Klay is easily the best sg in the league and Draymond barely 10 points Green is supposed to be more important? Give me a break.

lol

[100%duncan]

And yes Green is the 2nd most important Warrior. :lol But he's a product of curry.

[Killakobe81]

Here is a small sampling of folks that disagree with Raven ...

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba-news/4662065-draymond-green-stephen-curry-passing-assist-warriors-record

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14518937/how-much-worse-golden-state-warriors-stephen-curry

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/12/02/warriors-power-forward-draymond-green-is-the-nbas-best-center/

Samples from above ...

For comparison’s sake, the only three seasons previously recorded of a player averaging at least seven rebounds, seven assists, a steal and a block per game were recorded by LeBron James in the three years prior to his first departure from Cleveland.


Fancy Stats
Warriors power forward Draymond Green is the NBA’s best center
Resize Text Print Article Comments 0

By Seth Partnow December 2, 2015

Draymond Green is the second most important player on the Warriors. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)
With the Golden State Warriors starting 19-0, Stephen Curry is running away with his quest for a second consecutive MVP award. And there can be little question that, this season at least, the second best and next most important Golden State player has been Draymond Green. At his current level of play, Green is in the running for All-NBA selection, and in fact has an argument to make the first team. As a center.

This is a far cry from the player who entered the league as a second round tweener, not quick enough to play the three, not quite big enough to be a front line four. But through his own development, the league’s increasing devotion to mobility and shooting from all spots on the floor, and his unduplicatable fit within Golden State’s fast and furious system, he has gone beyond smallball power forward to become arguably the most dominant big man in the NBA this season.

While Green’s traditional stats might seem pedestrian at first glance, that is mostly a result of his relatively low 13.2 points per game. Add in the 8.1 rebounds, 7.1 assists (good for 7th in the league), 2.5 combined steals and blocks, and 40 percent three-point shooting and the raw numbers become more impressive. Further taking into account his role as the fulcrum of the Warriors’ fifth-rated defense, a rating which quite possibly understates their defensive chops given the sheer amount of garbage time played a team outscoring opponents by nearly 17 points per 100 possessions and his play becomes even more laudable. But all that has been achieved with Green playing a mix of power forward and center.

Among players with at least 100 minutes spent at center this season, Green’s production sums to plus-10.8 points per 36 according to Daily RAPM Estimate, or DRE, a weighted measure of box score stats. To put that number in context, Curry is the overall league leader (by a wide margin) in DRE with a plus-11.1 rating. As the biggest Warrior on the floor, on this measure of primarily offensive production, Green has contributed at a similar rate to Curry.



(stats via Nylon Calculus position splits and NBA.com play-by-play logs.)


For comparison’s sake, the only three seasons previously recorded of a player averaging at least seven rebounds, seven assists, a steal and a block per game were recorded by LeBron James in the three years prior to his first departure from Cleveland.


Turning Green loose at center as part of the Golden State’s lineup turns him into a sort of modern day Oscar Robertson. This combination of defense, rebounding and playmaking is completely unprecedented. No player in NBA history has averaged more than 5.5 assists while also averaging as many as even two blocks per game. Even playing nearly 80 percent of his minutes at power forward (and thus spending more time away from the hoop), Green is 12th in per game rim protection value. He is second to only James in playmaking usage among non-point guards, with teammates shooting at an effective 69.7 percent clip on his assist chances.

[100%duncan]

Here is a small sampling of folks that disagree with Raven ...

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba-news/4662065-draymond-green-stephen-curry-passing-assist-warriors-record

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14518937/how-much-worse-golden-state-warriors-stephen-curry

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/12/02/warriors-power-forward-draymond-green-is-the-nbas-best-center/

Samples from above ...

For comparison’s sake, the only three seasons previously recorded of a player averaging at least seven rebounds, seven assists, a steal and a block per game were recorded by LeBron James in the three years prior to his first departure from Cleveland.


Fancy Stats
Warriors power forward Draymond Green is the NBA’s best center
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By Seth Partnow December 2, 2015

Draymond Green is the second most important player on the Warriors. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)
With the Golden State Warriors starting 19-0, Stephen Curry is running away with his quest for a second consecutive MVP award. And there can be little question that, this season at least, the second best and next most important Golden State player has been Draymond Green. At his current level of play, Green is in the running for All-NBA selection, and in fact has an argument to make the first team. As a center.

This is a far cry from the player who entered the league as a second round tweener, not quick enough to play the three, not quite big enough to be a front line four. But through his own development, the league’s increasing devotion to mobility and shooting from all spots on the floor, and his unduplicatable fit within Golden State’s fast and furious system, he has gone beyond smallball power forward to become arguably the most dominant big man in the NBA this season.

While Green’s traditional stats might seem pedestrian at first glance, that is mostly a result of his relatively low 13.2 points per game. Add in the 8.1 rebounds, 7.1 assists (good for 7th in the league), 2.5 combined steals and blocks, and 40 percent three-point shooting and the raw numbers become more impressive. Further taking into account his role as the fulcrum of the Warriors’ fifth-rated defense, a rating which quite possibly understates their defensive chops given the sheer amount of garbage time played a team outscoring opponents by nearly 17 points per 100 possessions and his play becomes even more laudable. But all that has been achieved with Green playing a mix of power forward and center.

Among players with at least 100 minutes spent at center this season, Green’s production sums to plus-10.8 points per 36 according to Daily RAPM Estimate, or DRE, a weighted measure of box score stats. To put that number in context, Curry is the overall league leader (by a wide margin) in DRE with a plus-11.1 rating. As the biggest Warrior on the floor, on this measure of primarily offensive production, Green has contributed at a similar rate to Curry.



(stats via Nylon Calculus position splits and NBA.com play-by-play logs.)


For comparison’s sake, the only three seasons previously recorded of a player averaging at least seven rebounds, seven assists, a steal and a block per game were recorded by LeBron James in the three years prior to his first departure from Cleveland.


Turning Green loose at center as part of the Golden State’s lineup turns him into a sort of modern day Oscar Robertson. This combination of defense, rebounding and playmaking is completely unprecedented. No player in NBA history has averaged more than 5.5 assists while also averaging as many as even two blocks per game. Even playing nearly 80 percent of his minutes at power forward (and thus spending more time away from the hoop), Green is 12th in per game rim protection value. He is second to only James in playmaking usage among non-point guards, with teammates shooting at an effective 69.7 percent clip on his assist chances.


You dont need numbers tbh. Just look at the playoffs where that faggot self proclaimed best sg in the league always disappears.

[Raven]

If Klay went down the Warriors would still have the depth there to make it work anyway, IMO. But if they lost Draymond, who can duplicate what he does for them?
like who? igoudala?

[DAF86]

like who? igoudala?

Brandon Rush. Any folk that can hit threes basically. It would obviously not be the same but they would be allright. Now, who would you replace Green with to mantain more or less the same playing style?

[Killakobe81]

Green is like a hybrid of Marion for the SSOL Suns and the Spurs version of Diaw. He gives you play-making, defense and because of a unique role on defense ... would the toughest to replace on that team outside of the star PG.

[Raven]

Brandon Rush. Any folk that can hit threes basically. It would obviously not be the same but they would be allright. Now, who would you replace Green with to mantain more or less the same playing style?

brandon rush :lol last year was a .111 3pt shooter :lol Igoudala is just as bad as a shooter.. Green's role can be covered by iggy, speights, mcadoo, barnes, thompson or whatever.. i mean it starts and it ends with the shooters, green just needs to go for rebounds and pass the ball, nothing that challenging.

[DAF86]

brandon rush :lol last year was a .111 3pt shooter :lol Igoudala is just as bad as a shooter.. Green's role can be covered by iggy, speights, mcadoo, barnes, thompson or whatever.. i mean it starts and it ends with the shooters, green just needs to go for rebounds and pass the ball, nothing that challenging.

So? This year he is a fucking 45% 3pt shooter. Why the fuck would you post last season's stats? :lol

You don't like Rush? start Barbosa then or sign Ray Allen's corpse. I don't give a fuck.

What Draymond Green does for the Warriors is a lot more important and more difficult to replace than what Thompson does. Fuck, switch Thompson for Kyle fucking Korver and the Warriors would probably be just as good. Meanwhile to replace Green and have the team intact the Warriors would need to get someone like Lebron.

[ambchang]

Which is unfortunate because I think LeBron and Kyrie- especially Kyrie- would thrive in that type of offense.

Ideally LeBron would do for the Cavaliers what Draymond does for Golden State but he has no interest in being that kind of player.

I agree, but I am not sure how receptive the Kang will be of that arrangement.

The thing is, I am not sure if the Cavs are running their current offense due to Blatt or Lebron. I somehow get the feeling that Lebron is like the Larry Brown of players. A genius, best of all time, talent in his own discipline (playing for Lebron, coaching for Brown), but just over-exert his own influence in other areas (coaching and personnel for Lebron, personnel for Brown) and end up harming themselves in the process.

[Killakobe81]

I agree, but I am not sure how receptive the Kang will be of that arrangement.

The thing is, I am not sure if the Cavs are running their current offense due to Blatt or Lebron. I somehow get the feeling that Lebron is like the Larry Brown of players. A genius, best of all time, talent in his own discipline (playing for Lebron, coaching for Brown), but just over-exert his own influence in other areas (coaching and personnel for Lebron, personnel for Brown) and end up harming themselves in the process.

good analogy.

[ambchang]

when the thesis is too dumb, yes. Klay is easily the best sg in the league and Draymond barely 10 points Green is supposed to be more important? Give me a break.

In the Warriors scheme, Green > Klay and I don't even thing that is arguable.

Green has a ORtg of 116 and DRtg of 99, Klay sits at 111/106.

VORP/WS/WS-48/OPBM/DPBM/BPM

Green: 3.0 / 6.4 / .21 / 2.7/3.4/6.4
Klay: 0.8/4.1/0.145/2.3/-2/0.3

Green is the much better creator and honestly, it's not even close. Sure he thrives in that system and may not be as good a player as Klay (I have my doubts as to how well Klay can perform without Curry), but in the system, Green is undoubtedly more valuable, and it's not even close.

[DAF86]

In the Warriors scheme, Green > Klay and I don't even thing that is arguable.

Green has a ORtg of 116 and DRtg of 99, Klay sits at 111/106.

VORP/WS/WS-48/OPBM/DPBM/BPM

Green: 3.0 / 6.4 / .21 / 2.7/3.4/6.4
Klay: 0.8/4.1/0.145/2.3/-2/0.3

Green is the much better creator and honestly, it's not even close. Sure he thrives in that system and may not be as good a player as Klay (I have my doubts as to how well Klay can perform without Curry), but in the system, Green is undoubtedly more valuable, and it's not even close.

The problem wouldn't even be arguing that Thompson > Green, the problem is this retarded shit he said:


when the thesis is too dumb, yes. Klay is easily the best sg in the league and Draymond barely 10 points Green is supposed to be more important? Give me a break.

:lol

[Raven]

In the Warriors scheme, Green > Klay and I don't even thing that is arguable.

Green has a ORtg of 116 and DRtg of 99, Klay sits at 111/106.

VORP/WS/WS-48/OPBM/DPBM/BPM

Green: 3.0 / 6.4 / .21 / 2.7/3.4/6.4
Klay: 0.8/4.1/0.145/2.3/-2/0.3

Green is the much better creator and honestly, it's not even close. Sure he thrives in that system and may not be as good a player as Klay (I have my doubts as to how well Klay can perform without Curry), but in the system, Green is undoubtedly more valuable, and it's not even close.

just check the games where curry was out, klay played like a top 5 player in the league.

[Killakobe81]

just check the games where curry was out, klay played like a top 5 player in the league.

I respect your willingness to go down with the ship ...:lol
Amb and I both gave you numbers that refute what you are saying. Neither of us arguing that Klay is not a better player ... We are just saying that Green is more critical to their system and more important part of their current success. Rating numbers, Points per minutes advance plus minus all reflect what Amb and I are arguing here.
Of course Klay's points go up along with his usage rate sans Curry ... the fact that he could do so is also a credit to Green who keeps the offense humming with his passing at the POA and is feeding Klay and Curry at abetter rate than any forward not named LeBron. SureIggy could give you some of that ... but not as the level Green is providing same as Rush replacing Klay. However if I had to choose 2 of the 3 to go to war in a big game in that system I am taking Curry first and Green second.

[Raven]

I respect your willingness to go down with the ship ...:lol
Amb and I both gave you numbers that refute what you are saying. Neither of us arguing that Klay is not a better player ... We are just saying that Green is more critical to their system and more important part of their current success. Rating numbers, Points per minutes advance plus minus all reflect what Amb and I are arguing here.
Of course Klay's points go up along with his usage rate sans Curry ... the fact that he could do so is also a credit to Green who keeps the offense humming with his passing at the POA and is feeding Klay and Curry at abetter rate than any forward not named LeBron. SureIggy could give you some of that ... but not as the level Green is providing same as Rush replacing Klay. However if I had to choose 2 of the 3 to go to war in a big game in that system I am taking Curry first and Green second.

so you take out the better player, in the position that is a lot less deep both in the team and especially in the league, and the effect is smaller.. makes no sense to me. you guys are arguing that they would have to play differently without draymond, and the answer is duh? just tweak it a bit and that's it. take out klay and they need to play iggy at the 2, lose almost all of their unpredictability on offence and in time they would need to play frontcourt that they can't because they have no pf that can do that.

[Killakobe81]

so you take out the better player, in the position that is a lot less deep both in the team and especially in the league, and the effect is smaller.. makes no sense to me. you guys are arguing that they would have to play differently without draymond, and the answer is duh? just tweak it a bit and that's it. take out klay and they need to play iggy at the 2, lose almost all of their unpredictability on offence and in time they would need to play frontcourt that they can't because they have no pf that can do that.

you speaking in hypotheticals ...we are talking current state of the warriors with all things being equal. Klay may have more value in a open market to the NBA ... Green is just more valuable to this current Warriors roster.

[DAF86]

so you take out the better player, in the position that is a lot less deep both in the team and especially in the league, and the effect is smaller.. makes no sense to me. you guys are arguing that they would have to play differently without draymond, and the answer is duh? just tweak it a bit and that's it. take out klay and they need to play iggy at the 2, lose almost all of their unpredictability on offence and in time they would need to play frontcourt that they can't because they have no pf that can do that.

Why? Stop making false statements.

[DAF86]

I'm not even sure Klay is the better player straight up, tbh.

[Killakobe81]

I'm not even sure Klay is the better player straight up, tbh.

A case can be made for that too ... but I am sticking to the original argument.

[Raven]

Why? Stop making false statements.

because they have no other player? livingston is a 1 and rush is not an nba player.

[DAF86]

because they have no other player? livingston is a 1 and rush is not an nba player.

He isn't? And here was I thinking he had started in 23 of the 34 games played by the league leading, record chasing Golden State Warriors. Silly me.

[Raven]

He isn't? And here was I thinking he had started in 23 of the 34 games played by the league leading, record chasing Golden State Warriors. Silly me.
lol

[DAF86]

Does Raven seriously think that making false claims that can be proven wrong pretty easily is a good arguing technique? :lol

[100%duncan]

Klay is not even a better player than Green...

[BD24]

Nice bounce back game by Love last night since we are trashing him still not a max player ...which I argued to death when there was talk he would sign in L.A.
Kinda hope you guys trade some draft picks to the cavs for him.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't really see any argument for Thompson over Draymond, tbh:lol

[spurraider21]

Green is a product of Curry.
Kawhi is a product of the system.

See I can play simple too

[DAF86]

I don't really see any argument for Thompson over Draymond, tbh:lol

But dude, the thesis is so dumb that only a few lol's would do. The thesis bro, is too dumb.

[spurraider21]

:lol brandon rush is a career 40% 3 point shooter, of course raven cites his % in a season where he took 27 attempts :lol

[Brazil]

#Raven

tbh

:lol

[SpursforSix]

Leonard
LeBron
Durant
Wiggins
Parsons
Dirk
Rondo
Bazemore
Steph
Boogie

[ambchang]

just check the games where curry was out, klay played like a top 5 player in the league.

The two games Curry didn't play? Klay had a -11 in a 23 loss to Dallas, and a +10 in a tight win over Houston.

[ambchang]

The problem wouldn't even be arguing that Thompson > Green, the problem is this retarded shit he said:



:lol

Seriously, the only thing that Klay has an undisputed lead on Green is in the GF department.

[DPG21920]

Seriously, the only thing that Klay has an undisputed lead on Green is in the GF department.

She left him.

[Mikeanaro]

Lol Hemisphere still getting shitted on, thread backfired since the first day.

[Killakobe81]

She left him.

He cheated ...iirc and though her face is a bit off to me ...not ugly by any measure just not my type ... her body is banging though

[DPG21920]

He cheated ...iirc and though her face is a bit off to me ...not ugly by any measure just not my type ... her body is banging though

Haha - I was just trying to be funny about Klay since amb said all he had was his GF

[Killakobe81]

Haha - I was just trying to be funny about Klay since amb said all he had was his GF

I think she did she blew him up on twitter than deleted maybe he Kobed her and gave her jewelry and a good dicking to stay along with lies of never letting it happen again ...

[Killakobe81]

Kobe copied that from Jordan too ...lol

[ambchang]

She left him.

Oh there goes the last thing.

[100%duncan]

Kawhi is a product of the system.

See I can play simple too

Well yah, I mean that 2009-2011 system sure looked good.

[spurraider21]

Well yah, I mean that 2009-2011 system sure looked good.
I wasn't serious about my assessment of leonard. But as a fan of a player who has been downgraded by other fans because of "the system props him up" I'm pretty hesitant to just call green a product of a system/player

[100%duncan]

I wasn't serious about my assessment of leonard. But as a fan of a player who has been downgraded by other fans because of "the system props him up" I'm pretty hesitant to just call green a product of a system/player

I know you werent I was just playing up. I guess I should have put a lol emoticon at the end.

Idk man, Curry is just a historical player. Any player put with him is gonna be vastly improved bec of all the open looks he develops. Im not saying Raymond is not a great player but do you really think he's deserving of MVP consideration? Fuck no. Dude's overrated because of Curry, he's way overblown because of Curry but he's still a great player and the 2nd most important to his team.

[spurraider21]

I know you werent I was just playing up. I guess I should have put a lol emoticon at the end.

Idk man, Curry is just a historical player. Any player put with him is gonna be vastly improved bec of all the open looks he develops. Im not saying Raymond is not a great player but do you really think he's deserving of MVP consideration? Fuck no. Dude's overrated because of Curry, he's way overblown because of Curry but he's still a great player and the 2nd most important to his team.
i dont think anybody should be in mvp consideration if they aren't considered to be the best player on their team.

but that doesn't discount how well green is playing. he had a big trip dub even when curry sat. his defensive ability isn't a product of curry either

[100%duncan]

i dont think anybody should be in mvp consideration if they aren't considered to be the best player on their team.

but that doesn't discount how well green is playing. he had a big trip dub even when curry sat. his defensive ability isn't a product of curry either

There you go, he wouldn't be as good without curry.

[spurraider21]

There you go, he wouldn't be as good without curry.
that's not what i said at all. i dont think he's an mvp candidate, but i'm sold on him as a top 15-ish player

[100%duncan]

that's not what i said at all. i dont think he's an mvp candidate, but i'm sold on him as a top 15-ish player

I know it wasnt what you said, but it supports what I said. Whatever though, we wont get to an agreement I guess :lol

[spurraider21]

I know it wasnt what you said, but it supports what I said. Whatever though, we wont get to an agreement I guess :lol
i dno, its like, kawhi wasn't an mvp candidate in 2013-2014 but that doesn't mean he was just the product of a system/other players

[HemisfairArena]

Why do ya'll got to be so mean to ole Hemi?,,,

[100%duncan]

Why do ya'll got to be so mean to ole Hemi?,,,

You have another take to own up upstairs :lol