ESPN Insider Request: ESPN debating Manu in HOF

[Henrik Sedin]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11337818/nba-which-current-nba-players-hall-fame-brink-enshrined

[dabom]

Can someone post the whole article? Thanks.

[RD2191]

:lolWhat's there to debate?

[ElNono]

Nowhere in the article's preview there's a mention of Gino... OP just really wants to know if Joe Johnson will make it?

[MaNu4Tres]

Nowhere in the article's preview there's a mention of Gino... OP just really wants to know if Joe Johnson will make it?

Manu Ginobili


Career WARP: 118.8
Basketball-Reference HOF probability: 25.8 percent

Ginobili is the more interesting case. A later start to his NBA career and a few injuries prevented him from piling up the requisite counting stats. (To wit: Ginobili has scored fewer career points than Stephen Jackson.) I suspect he'd still get in on the strength of four championships. His role on Argentina's golden 2004 Olympic team bolsters his case considerably.

- Kevin Pelton

[ElNono]

I do think a Vince Carter discussion would be interesting... he is/was an iconic player for the league, but is he HoF worthy?

[MaNu4Tres]

Tony Parker


Career WARP: 84.2
Basketball-Reference HOF probability: 95.4 percent

Despite his poor WARP figure, Parker's case is the most heavily weighted to NBA performance of the three international candidates. In fact, Basketball-Reference.com's model suggests Parker -- who has accumulated six All-Star appearances, four NBA titles and a Finals MVP -- is the surest bet of any player considered here.

- Kevin Pelton

[ElNono]

Manu Ginobili

Career WARP: 118.8
Basketball-Reference HOF probability: 25.8 percent

Ginobili is the more interesting case. A later start to his NBA career and a few injuries prevented him from piling up the requisite counting stats. (To wit: Ginobili has scored fewer career points than Stephen Jackson.) I suspect he'd still get in on the strength of four championships. His role on Argentina's golden 2004 Olympic team bolsters his case considerably.

- Kevin Pelton

OP is Nostradamus, tbh... thanks for the snippet though.

[dabom]

Can people stop posting ESPN bullshit? I realized I made a terrible mistake in caring.

[BillMc]

International committee will put Manu in, no doubts about it.

[cd98]

Stephen Jackson scored more points than Manu? Not surprising. Jackson was a chucker on every team. Manu has always scored his points in the context of team. Are we saying that you have to score a certain amount of points to be in the HOF? If so, that favors chuckers over team players. It would be ludicrous to think Jackson is better than Manu because he scored more points. Manu was an all around player and his stats manifest that: he is a great scorer and passer and an above average defender (I would not say he was ever a great defender, though he had his moments). He's also had big moments on big stages. And I don't think you can put any weight behind all star appearances because that is mostly a popularity contest. We habitually have popular but less skilled players on the all star team. Hell, even players that have been injured all year are voted on all star teams. I give weight to all NBA teams, but that's about it and even that is fraught with big market bias.

[D-rob fan]

OP is Nostradamus, tbh... thanks for the snippet though.

Actually, Manu's picture was on the front page ESPN link (along with Joe Johnsona and Vince Carter) which implied he would be mentioned in the article.

[Daniel Sedin]

OP is Nostradamus, tbh... thanks for the snippet though.

Do you even ESPN bro?

[phxspurfan]

I do think a Vince Carter discussion would be interesting... he is/was an iconic player for the league, but is he HoF worthy?

Carter led the 2000 olympic team to gold in Sydney, and jumped over some Lithuanian guy's head. I think he's a shoo in.

[ElNono]

Actually, Manu's picture was on the front page ESPN link (along with Joe Johnsona and Vince Carter) which implied he would be mentioned in the article.

Ah thanks, missed that.


Do you even ESPN bro?

Not really, bro.

Check Yahoo more often, Tree of Woj normally has the news earlier...

[ElNono]

I do check Grantland though... I like some of the Bill Simmons writing...

[jARS mEsH sEt]

Would Manure be HOF worthy on NBA accolades alone? I say hell to the n-o :rollin

B-R's 25% nba only HOF probability stat doesn't lie :lmao

[Daniel Sedin]

Would Manure be HOF worthy on NBA accolades alone? I say hell to the n-o :rollin

B-R's 25% nba only HOF probability stat doesn't lie :lmao

Well, according to your opinion, you believed Manu wouldn't score 20 again. Especially considering they said in the article that state was very misleading.

:lmao

[BillMc]

Slightly off topic, but there's an article on NBA.com, asking why not put Horry in the HOF?

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/08/11/horrys-hof-scale-does-it-exist/

I'm kind of beginning to think Big Shot Bob maybe should be in. The Lakers and the Spurs may each have one less title without him

[ElNono]

I think the 2004 ARG NT (aka Golden Generation) is probably deserving of induction too... they're the first team ever to beat Team USA made up of NBA players twice, and Colangelo, Coach K, etc said they used that team as inspiration to rebuild Team USA after those debacles.

Furthermore, and talking about Simmons, he said in the pre-game of Game 5 of the Finals that Heat fans probably feels like Team USA fans in the 2002-2005 era, when international teams started to move the ball around and the NBA stars were playing one on one and didn't know what to do.

Just another nod to team ball dominance and if you remember those days, the style of play of these Spurs was very reminiscent of that '04 ARG team. Motion, lots of screens and back-cuts, really beautiful to watch.

[boutons_deux]

"really beautiful to watch"

and a hell of a lot more fun, satisfying to play, for the whole team.

[Proxy]

Gold in Athens... the big 3 will all be in the hall

[rjv]

parker is a shoe-in, manu will get in as well (olympics, euroleague skins and a vital part of the big three). injuries skewed his all-star appearances (which is the most overrated stat of all being that a portion of it is based upon the fans' votes).

[EVAY]

^^^Agreed. All three of our big three are locks, imo.

Gino for his entire body of work, Tim for the GOAT, and Tony because he is already a lock and has maybe 4-5 more years to play.

[CGD]

If Mitch Richmond, saurunas, and Zo made the cut, there is no question Manu and Tony will. Lol "debate"

[barakz21]

I think he goes in under the international category, but it sure would be nice if he gets in under the "normal" category( what's it called anyway?). With that being said, I do have question about HOF inductions. Is it possible for a player who's inducted under the international category to ALSO get in under the "normal" category?

[DPG21920]

This isn't a debate. This isn't the NBA HOF, it's the basketball HOF. Manu is easily going to make it due to his entire body of work. I would bet everything on it.

[100%duncan]

This isn't a debate. This isn't the NBA HOF, it's the basketball HOF. Manu is easily going to make it due to his entire body of work. I would bet everything on it.

[DAF86]

As everybody knows Manu is a lock for the HoF because of his entire body of work but even without his international accomplishments he would make it anyway, imho. Aside from his 4 rings, 6th men award, all-stars and all-NBA's Manu is an iconic player that was ahead of his time, as this Grantland article explains it:


Although no one knew it at the time, “Emanuel” Ginobili would go down as one of the best second-round picks ever. Emanuel quickly became Manu and won over the hearts and minds of Spurs fans with his brand of play, which foreshadowed the future of NBA play; he was James Harden before James Harden. Ginobili is an attack-minded slasher who loves 3s, rim attacks, and free throws; he hated midrange shots before it was cool to hate them. Oh, and he brought the NBA the Eurostep, which early on in his career was often called a travel by NBA officials who didn’t know what to make of Ginobili’s signature move.

http://grantland.com/features/san-antonio-spurs-bench-international-manu-ginobili-rc-buford/

He popularized "flopping" too and is part of the winningest trio in the history of the game. We all know Manu is the "anti-stat padder" but on every relevent advanced metric he is way up-there (and by "way up-there" I mean top 10/20 of all-time. Just look it up) which kinda makes up for his lack of raw stats on NBA games.

[dbreiden83080]

"Weighing candidacies of Vince Carter, Joe Johnson, others on the Hall bubble"


Do we think Vince Carter is a hall of fame player?

[thiste]

Carter led the 2000 olympic team to gold in Sydney, and jumped over some Lithuanian guy's head. I think he's a shoo in.


Not Lithuanian, 7"2 French center Fred Weis, in arguably the best dunk in the history of Basketball.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMrPjl-927Q

[ElNono]

As everybody knows Manu is a lock for the HoF because of his entire body of work but even without his international accomplishments he would make it anyway, imho. Aside from his 4 rings, 6th men award, all-stars and all-NBA's Manu is an iconic player that was ahead of his time, as this Grantland article explains it:

http://grantland.com/features/san-antonio-spurs-bench-international-manu-ginobili-rc-buford/

He popularized "flopping" too and is part of the winningest trio in the history of the game. We all know Manu is the "anti-stat padder" but on every relevent advanced metric he is way up-there (and by "way up-there" I mean top 10/20 of all-time. Just look it up) which kinda makes up for his lack of raw stats on NBA games.

:lol that article links to my youtube account :tu

[DAF86]

:lol that article links to my youtube account :tu

Sup ElNonoM?

[RD2191]

:lol that article links to my youtube account :tu
2 subscribers? Moving on up!

[ElNono]

Sup ElNonoM?

:lol sup


2 subscribers? Moving on up!

don't expect many vids, tbh... wish I had more time to screw around with Final Cut

[Skull-1]

Slightly off topic, but there's an article on NBA.com, asking why not put Horry in the HOF?

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/08/11/horrys-hof-scale-does-it-exist/

I'm kind of beginning to think Big Shot Bob maybe should be in. The Lakers and the Spurs may each have one less title without him


Big Shot ROB.

[spursparker9]

"Weighing candidacies of Vince Carter, Joe Johnson, others on the Hall bubble"


Do we think Vince Carter is a hall of fame player?


Vince Carter - Yes

Joe Johnson - No, at least not yet. If he could win at least a ring then yes.

[TheyCallMePro]

This is the kind of bullshit that exemplifies why Manu Ginobili will go down as THE MOST underrated player of all time. To debate Manu's HOF induction is straight up blasphemy. Manu Ginobili is THE hardest working self-sacrificing, and most dedicated player the NBA has EVER seen. Without him, the Spurs wouldn't have won 4 Championships from 2003-2014 or had the tremendous amount of success they enjoyed throughout those years.

This is why Spurs fan get so upset with the National Media. We have the best PG in the game in Tony Parker, and the best 2 guard in the game in Manu Ginobili and Tim Duncan gets ALL the credit. Tim is great but for the love of GOD can Manu and Tony get a little RESPECT? They're ALL-TIME GREATS FOR GOD'S SAKE.

I just saw someone named Sarunas Marciulionis get inducted to the HOF and be deemed "The greatest foreign player to ever play in the NBA" and I've never even heard of him. I checked and he's won exactly ZERO championships, possesses a grand total of 3 playoff appearances (only made it to the 2nd round ONCE) and his teams enjoyed limited, if any, success over the course of his ENTIRE career. And yet THIS guy made the Hall of Fame and ESPN wants to debate Manu Ginobili's induction. At this point it's just plain sickening and I never want to hear about how the Spurs get their fair amount of respect from the media when Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili are top 20 all-time players and yet won't even be recognized as top 50 all-time players when their careers are over.

[diego]

agree with nono I expect the entire argentina team to get in, though manu will get in invidually too.

something that people dont mention in these discussions, which IMO is worth noting, is how unorthodox manu is. How many players in the past 20 years go around the back in the middle of an NBA game like manu does? add the between the legs dribbles and passes, the behind the backs and the crazy passing, and manu has a maravich like quality of playing a very unique style.

[spurso]

Does it matter if Manu and tony had a PED.....performance enhancing Duncan :rollin

[DMC]

US media seem to always forget that the HOF isn't the NBA HOF.

[BillMc]

Big Shot ROB.

He preferred to be called Big Shot BOB. Horry said it many times and that's what they call him in the article.

[Skull-1]

He preferred to be called Big Shot BOB. Horry said it many times and that's what they call him in the article.


He corrected people when it first started and specifically said, "Rob, not Bob."

[BillMc]

He corrected people when it first started and specifically said, "Rob, not Bob."

You're right. I just looked it up. I had it backwards must be getting old...:lol

[dbreiden83080]

US media seem to always forget that the HOF isn't the NBA HOF.

For players that are up for the Hall in most cases 99% of their careers occur in the NBA. Manu has played almost 1000 games in the NBA.. The media is judging them based on their largest sample size..

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Manu is a lock. This 25% BS is just that Bullshit. Manu has Euro championships, Italian league championships, 4 NBA titles, a World Championship, an Olympic championship, Euro league MVP, Italian league MVP, NBA all-star. NBA 6th man, etc etc.

Throw out the Argentine play, he'd still make it in base on his Euro/Italian league and NBA play. The guy is a winner. Anyone who watches basketball knows the reason he has not scored a lot of points is because of Parker. That is why Manu's player rating blows Parker's out of the water. One for years was a ballhog until very recently, and the other was the consummate team player his whole career.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

US media seem to always forget that the HOF isn't the NBA HOF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvydas_Sabonis

If Sabonis got in as a 1st ballot HOF, there is no doubt Manu is going to get in the same way.

[Seventyniner]

Manu is a lock. This 25% BS is just that Bullshit. Manu has Euro championships, Italian league championships, 4 NBA titles, a World Championship, an Olympic championship, Euro league MVP, Italian league MVP, NBA all-star. NBA 6th man, etc etc.

Throw out the Argentine play, he'd still make it in base on his Euro/Italian league and NBA play. The guy is a winner. Anyone who watches basketball knows the reason he has not scored a lot of points is because of Parker. That is why Manu's player rating blows Parker's out of the water. One for years was a ballhog until very recently, and the other was the consummate team player his whole career.

Of course this was going to turn into a Manu vs Tony thread.

Look, they're both getting into the HoF. First ballot each.

[Budkin]

Slightly off topic, but there's an article on NBA.com, asking why not put Horry in the HOF?

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/08/11/horrys-hof-scale-does-it-exist/

I'm kind of beginning to think Big Shot Bob maybe should be in. The Lakers and the Spurs may each have one less title without him

He needs to be in there just for the amount of huge shots he's hit. I know that's not usually a qualification but in his case it needs to be.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Of course this was going to turn into a Manu vs Tony thread.

Look, they're both getting into the HoF. First ballot each.

I agree both deserve to go. But it is undeniable that Parker took a lot of touches away from Manu. I remember many of time Parker would completely ignore Manu when he was wide open. It just has been the past 3 years that Parker has been playing more team ball and lo and behold, 3 straight WCF and 2 Final appearances.

There is no doubt that if Manu was the 1st or 2nd team option, he would have avg. numbers close to Chris Mullins back in his prime. Notice Parker wasn't out there in this game in the 4th or OT and the Spurs came back and Manu poured in 48 points against the Suns. I remember watching this game. Parker was a Spurs killer at time with his ball hogging.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoGnzDLDAU

[Seventyniner]

Manu is 1st ballot HoF and doesn't care about his stats. Why do you?

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

This basically says it all.

Many would say Bosh is going to be a HOF. But if you look at his 36 mpg stats once he became the 3rd fiddle on a championship team, they are worse than Manu's. Problem with Manu is that he played Int'l BB every year he was with the Spurs until last year and this year. This imo led to a lot of injuries throughout his career that effected his seasonal play with the Spurs and why Pop rested him so much throughout the season. But come playoff time, Manu was the mano for the Spurs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parisro01.html

[superbigtime]

Joe Johnson is not a hall of famer. I mean seriously.

[Skull-1]

You're right. I just looked it up. I had it backwards must be getting old...:lol


Don't feel bad. They called him BOB in the 22 Jump Street NBA commercials and he let it slide.

[ambchang]

Manu is a 1st ballot HoF for sure, there is no reason for him not to be one, considering both his NBA and international accomplishments.

Parker has a stronger case with NBA accomplishments, but his international accomplishments doesn't compare to Manu's.

Bowen had the same role as Cooper, and Cooper didn't get in, so Bowen is not in there for me (and he shouldn't be).

Horry is about one of the most unique players in the history of the league, but he has never been a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th option on a championship winning team. He freelances, picks his spots, and nail huge shots throughout his career, like a John Paxon or a Steve Kerr on steroids who can defend and rebound, but he is a role player through and through, and no role players ever made the HoF (except those Celtics payers). He had no stats, no all star games, no all-nba teams, doesn't crack top 50 all time in anything, and the only individual accolade he ever had was making the All-Rookie 2nd team, so no, he shouldn't make it.

[Galileo]

Manu is a lock. This 25% BS is just that Bullshit. Manu has Euro championships, Italian league championships, 4 NBA titles, a World Championship, an Olympic championship, Euro league MVP, Italian league MVP, NBA all-star. NBA 6th man, etc etc.

Throw out the Argentine play, he'd still make it in base on his Euro/Italian league and NBA play. The guy is a winner. Anyone who watches basketball knows the reason he has not scored a lot of points is because of Parker. That is why Manu's player rating blows Parker's out of the water. One for years was a ballhog until very recently, and the other was the consummate team player his whole career.

Manu also has the highest regular season winning percentage of all time, in games he played the Spurs won 578, lost only 217. That projects to an AVERAGE season of 60 wins over 10 seasons.

His playoff W/L is also among the best 117 wins, 63 losses. To compare, Jordan was 119 wins, 60 losses in playoffs.

[Galileo]

* Manu also received 5 of 12 votes for 2005 NBA Finals MVP.

[spurraider21]

I'd put Horry in the hall before Bruce. i think what got what he deserved. Retired his jersey in San Antonio, but no HOF

[BillMc]

Manu will be in the hall for this game alone. (And I haven't watched this in 10 years. Interesting to see the American rotations, etc. RJ getting more time than Lebron. Of course LBJ was like 19. Manu and D-wade going at it when they were young, just like how they've gone at it as old men the last 2 years.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV3xGflsz2o

[Ginobili3]

Fuck b-r.com, they have Shawn Marion, Westbrook and Amare ahead of Manu when it comes to HoF probability. Wtf.

[ElNono]

Fuck b-r.com, they have Shawn Marion, Westbrook and Amare ahead of Manu when it comes to HoF probability. Wtf.

IIRC, they calculate it based on NBA stats... international accolades are not included, thus the discrepancy...

[Ginobili3]

IIRC, they calculate it based on NBA stats... international accolades are not included, thus the discrepancy...
Ah I see. All-Star appearances mean that much though? Hard to believe

[BillMc]

I have a hard time believing Marion is even really a contender to the HOF. That said, I haven't read the article.

[Kidd K]

I do think a Vince Carter discussion would be interesting... he is/was an iconic player for the league, but is he HoF worthy?

If NBA HOF had MLB HOF standards, I would say no, he doesn't make it. But. . .it's the NBA HOF. The standards are definitely a lot lower, so pretty much any well-known player is going to get in. Maybe not first shot, but they're getting in.

NBA HOF almost needs tiers to it so they stop mentioning people like Vince Carter with Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.

[Raven]

"Weighing candidacies of Vince Carter, Joe Johnson, others on the Hall bubble"


Do we think Vince Carter is a hall of fame player?

No.

[polandprzem]

I do think a Vince Carter discussion would be interesting... he is/was an iconic player for the league, but is he HoF worthy?
What carter did in his career to claim the HOF?

[ElNono]

What carter did in his career to claim the HOF?

Rook of the year, 8x All Star, 1 Olympic gold medal... that's about it. He hold several franchise records on the Nets. He also scored 51 points twice in his career.

Not a lot to go on, but he was a very marketable 'star' in a league that has always been desperate to hype individual talent.

[ElNono]

If NBA HOF had MLB HOF standards, I would say no, he doesn't make it. But. . .it's the NBA HOF. The standards are definitely a lot lower, so pretty much any well-known player is going to get in. Maybe not first shot, but they're getting in.

NBA HOF almost needs tiers to it so they stop mentioning people like Vince Carter with Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.

I think that's what the 'first ballot' distinction is. It's also the Basketball HOF, not the NBA HOF. That's why it's not just NBA accolades that count.

[Dex]

Rook of the year, 8x All Star, 1 Olympic gold medal... that's about it. He hold several franchise records on the Nets. He also scored 51 points twice in his career.

Not a lot to go on, but he was a very marketable 'star' in a league that has always been desperate to hype individual talent.

If they could just enshrine that Dunk Contest performance, tbh.

[Seventyniner]

If they could just enshrine that Dunk Contest performance, tbh.

It is the Hall of Fame after all, and Vince was one of the most famous players in the world for a good amount of time.