Duncan winning his 6th title on a back2back

[RsxPiimp]

How would this define his legacy? Would this put him unanimously as the 2nd overall greatest player in the history of the game?


Also, how would this affect Lebron's legacy? Assuming of course the Cavs advance in the Finals.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lebron winning with cavs wont do shit for him

duncan has already solidify his position as top5 goat...

who u going to bump down for lebron? he already loss twice to duncan and losing to another tosb dirk...

[Agloco]

It seems that back to back is all the rage these days. Winning a LOBT isnt enough. A back to back would go a long way to quelling the denizens in the basement here. A three-peat? Well that should quiet their collective pie-holes for good.

[100%duncan]

Lebron winning with Cleveland puts him in God status in Ohio tbh.

TD winning his 6th will place him top 3 all time imho. I got him inside top 5 now.

[RsxPiimp]

lebron winning with cavs wont do shit for him

duncan has already solidify his position as top5 goat...

who u going to bump down for lebron? he already loss twice to duncan and losing to another tosb dirk...

I already have Duncan at Top 3 but winning another, b2b at that would probably put him above Magic. Let's face it. Winning titles is really important for players like him.


Lebron isn't going down but it's just interesting to see how people would perceive his legacy if he loses another NBA Finals. It would also mark the third time against Duncan's team.

[Killakobe81]

No effect titles mean little in regards to legacy ...

or so I have been told ...

[StrengthAndHonor]

No effect titles mean little in regards to legacy ...

or so I have been told ...
Never understood that honestly. I know it's a team accomplishment but as the best player of a championship team, this should carry a whole lot of weight. The NBA season is a long ride, to diminish the ultimate goal of every team year in and out is ridiculous IMO.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Never understood that honestly. I know it's a team accomplishment but as the best player of a championship team, this should carry a whole lot of weight. The NBA season is a long ride, to diminish the ultimate goal of every team year in and out is ridiculous IMO.

He is just saying that because the BSPN talking heads already have LBJ over Kobe despite his shit Finals record and 2 titles

[DMC]

Lebron winning with Cleveland puts him in God status in Ohio tbh.

TD winning his 6th will place him top 3 all time imho. I got him inside top 5 now.

I don't think winning more rings will elevate Duncan's all time status, because he's not the main cog any longer. Would Shaq be ranked higher if he had 5 rings, if he got one with another team playing 20 minutes a night or so? If someone else gets the finals MVP?

Tim is who he is, and the rankings, if honest about "greatest", have to consider his entire body of work. Another ring won't hurt him, but unless he takes the team on his shoulders, he's not going to be considered any better for it by most "pundits". Even the blip from ring 5 will revert to Kobe talk after the beginning of the new season. You'll see.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

I don't think winning more rings will elevate Duncan's all time status, because he's not the main cog any longer. Would Shaq be ranked higher if he had 5 rings, if he got one with another team playing 20 minutes a night or so? If someone else gets the finals MVP?

Tim is who he is, and the rankings, if honest about "greatest", have to consider his entire body of work. Another ring won't hurt him, but unless he takes the team on his shoulders, he's not going to be considered any better for it by most "pundits". Even the blip from ring 5 will revert to Kobe talk after the beginning of the new season. You'll see.

Bad take. Rings are incredibly important.

[Splits]

If he has another playoff run like this year and leads the team in minutes, PER, WinShares, offensive boards, defensive boards, total boards, FTA and blocks, and is second on the team in PTS, FG%, and FGA then top-3.

[DMC]

Bad take. Rings are incredibly important.

That's why Horry is ranked above Jordan, Magic, Bird and Jabbar.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

That's why Horry is ranked above Jordan, Magic, Bird and Jabbar.

lol, way to take it to the extreme. It is different with superstars than role players, but if a superstar wins one as a 2nd option they wont kill them for it and it can only help their legacy. If Kobe was 3rd banana to a title team and he got his sixth, i guarantee you that everyone would say that puts him back in front of Duncan and in the conversation with Michael Jordan so gtfo

[Malik Hairston]

:lol using rings to rank players is the most antiquated ranking method in sports, tbh..

People that use rings as a point of argument are generally incapable of understanding numbers/logic/circumstances, etc..

[Malik Hairston]

2014 Kawhi Leonard >>> 1988 Michael Jordan, tbh..

2004 Chauncey Billups >>> 2006 Kobe Bryant..

[scanry]

I already have Duncan at Top 3 but winning another, b2b at that would probably put him above Magic. Let's face it. Winning titles is really important for players like him.


Lebron isn't going down but it's just interesting to see how people would perceive his legacy if he loses another NBA Finals. It would also mark the third time against Duncan's team.

Tim is not top 3. I have MJ, Magic, Kareem and I guess Russell ahead of him.

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lol using rings to rank players is the most antiquated ranking method in sports, tbh..

People that use rings as a point of argument are generally incapable of understanding numbers/logic/circumstances, etc..
So, I'm curious how you measure it because I know you're a huge advocate of this. You seriously can't say it's just numbers or advance stats and MVP's are media driven awards.

[StrengthAndHonor]

2014 Kawhi Leonard >>> 1988 Michael Jordan, tbh..

2004 Chauncey Billups >>> 2006 Kobe Bryant..
But it's silly to use a season of their career as reference...

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Tim is not top 3. I have MJ, Magic, Kareem and I guess Russell ahead of him.

lol Russell, most overrated player in NBA history. I would have Kareem ahead unless Duncan gets #6

[Malik Hairston]

So, I'm curious how you measure it because I know you're a huge advocate of this. You seriously can't say it's just numbers or advance stats and MVP's are media driven awards.

It's a combination of everything..there's no specific formula or accolade to rank players..

Dad Killer is the greatest of all-time because he ranks well in any metric or accolade you can use: advanced stats, rings, awards, performances in big games, overall level of both offense and defense, etc..

I absolutely hate when anybody says DK was the greatest because of "rings" or because of his "Finals record"(as if its better to lose in the conference finals:lol)..

It doesn't make any sense to say X player is greater than another guy simply because he has more rings..

[Malik Hairston]

But it's silly to use a season of their career as reference...

I wasn't referring to their careers, I was comparing a single season..

There's no way 2004 Billups had a better season than 2006 Kobe, just because the former's season ended with a championship ring..

[Malik Hairston]

Duncan had a very good playoff run, so ya, this past championship run helps his case, but not in a major way(since he wasn't the primary cog, as this Spurs team didn't have a superstar player)..

If he plays well again next year in another title run, then sure, it helps, but it wouldn't hold the same weight if he struggles during the playoffs and the Spurs still win the title(see: Tony Parker)..

[Trainwreck2100]

Duncan had a very good playoff run, so ya, this past championship run helps his case, but not in a major way(since he wasn't the primary cog, as this Spurs team didn't have a superstar player)..

If he plays well again next year in another title run, then sure, it helps, but it wouldn't hold the same weight if he struggles during the playoffs and the Spurs still win the title(see: Tony Parker)..
If Duncan struggles they ain't winning shit

[TDMVPDPOY]

Duncan had a very good playoff run, so ya, this past championship run helps his case, but not in a major way(since he wasn't the primary cog, as this Spurs team didn't have a superstar player)..

If he plays well again next year in another title run, then sure, it helps, but it wouldn't hold the same weight if he struggles during the playoffs and the Spurs still win the title(see: Tony Parker)..
lol mentioning the coatrider like he had anything to do with duncans runs last 2 seasons...duncan put up his usual per 36 numbers, had enrique not been a wanker and pass the ball more, duncan wouldve scored more

[ElNono]

Back to back is overrated. Arguably, leading your team to winning championships 5-6 years apart has much more merit, even more so when you do it more than once. It shows consistent dominance.

[RD2191]

Back to back is overrated. Arguably, leading your team to winning championships 5-6 years apart has much more merit, even more so when you do it more than once. It shows consistent dominance.
Especially when the leader of the team didn't cry/beg for an all star or request a trade when such help didn't arrive.

[Malik Hairston]

lol mentioning the coatrider like he had anything to do with duncans runs last 2 seasons...duncan put up his usual per 36 numbers, had enrique not been a wanker and pass the ball more, duncan wouldve scored more

I meant that Parker got credit for a ring this season, people were even using it to bring down other PGs of this generation(Paul, Nash, etc), even though Parker had little to do with the Spurs' championship, tbh..

[Kidd K]

It'd be more the 6th ring than the b2b that helps his legacy. I mean we only have MJ, Russell, and Kareem up there with 6+ rings and "best player in league" status at some point.

But yeah, I think Duncan would easily be top 3-4 (depending on where you put Russell) with 6. As of now he's 5-6 with Magic/Wilt arguably above him still along with MJ, Kareem, and Russell.

LeBron need 3 more rings to get in there, and tbh I don't see it happening, even if he can cakewalk through the east still.

[RsxPiimp]

Tim is not top 3. I have MJ, Magic, Kareem and I guess Russell ahead of him.

Debatable with Magic. Kareem is criminally underrated and has been for years. I won't have any problems putting Duncan over Magic but they're about tie IMO.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

It'd be more the 6th ring than the b2b that helps his legacy. I mean we only have MJ, Russell, and Kareem up there with 6+ rings and "best player in league" status at some point.

But yeah, I think Duncan would easily be top 3-4 (depending on where you put Russell) with 6. As of now he's 5-6 with Magic/Wilt arguably above him still along with MJ, Kareem, and Russell.

LeBron need 3 more rings to get in there, and tbh I don't see it happening, even if he can cakewalk through the east still.

If Lebron didnt win another ring, BSPN would still have him as a top 5 guy, Duncan can hold him off with a 6th and head to head win this year over the Cavs

[RsxPiimp]

Back to back is overrated. Arguably, leading your team to winning championships 5-6 years apart has much more merit, even more so when you do it more than once. It shows consistent dominance.
This is true but winning b2b is still a feat in itself.

[lefty]

:lol using rings to rank players is the most antiquated ranking method in sports, tbh..

People that use rings as a point of argument are generally incapable of understanding numbers/logic/circumstances, etc..
I agree with that faggot, TBH

[ambchang]

Nothing. Duncan already cemented his place in the top 10 since 2005.

Unless Duncan goes on a tear and carry a spurs team with no Leonard, parker and ginobili to a title averaging 25/12/4/3, his all time ranking is not affected.

At this point in his career, well past his prime and 17 seasons in, Duncan can only demonstrate his importance as a system or even role player, he is not a superstar at this point, and no top 10 player of all time ever made their case because of a season by not even being a top 10 player in the league.

Not saying Duncan is not important, but he's playing a bulls rodman or title Robinson role right now, and Duncan's career is too good to be affected by these types of seasons.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Nothing. Duncan already cemented his place in the top 10 since 2005.

Unless Duncan goes on a tear and carry a spurs team with no Leonard, parker and ginobili to a title averaging 25/12/4/3, his all time ranking is not affected.

At this point in his career, well past his prime and 17 seasons in, Duncan can only demonstrate his importance as a system or even role player, he is not a superstar at this point, and no top 10 player of all time ever made their case because of a season by not even being a top 10 player in the league.

Not saying Duncan is not important, but he's playing a bulls rodman or title Robinson role right now, and Duncan's career is too good to be affected by these types of seasons.

lol, I love how everyone thinks that the talking heads at BSPN who have the most influence on these rankings would think like this. They only look at rings. Before the 5th ring, Duncan was behind Kobe, now he is ahead.... cuz he got a ring

[DMC]

lol, I love how everyone thinks that the talking heads at BSPN who have the most influence on these rankings would think like this. They only look at rings. Before the 5th ring, Duncan was behind Kobe, now he is ahead.... cuz he got a ring

So then they should think Horry is ahead of Michael since they only look at rings, are do you want to quit sounding like a fucking idiot?

[Kool Bob Love]

DMC.....come on b.

[DMC]

DMC.....come on b.

Sorry. Had too many windows open, wrong forum. It's been deleted. Please keep the personal information to yourself.

[Buddy Mignon]

Sorry. Had too many windows open, wrong forum. It's been deleted. Please keep the personal information to yourself.


What? You accidentally entered your credit card info here thinking it was your favorite porn site? You have a lot of shit going on there buddy. Jacking off to tranny's and talking to shit to Luva deserves an award.

[DMC]

What? You accidentally entered your credit card info here thinking it was your favorite porn site? You have a lot of shit going on there buddy. Jacking off to tranny's and talking to shit to Luva deserves an award.

Don't you worry about it. :p:

[ambchang]

lol, I love how everyone thinks that the talking heads at BSPN who have the most influence on these rankings would think like this. They only look at rings. Before the 5th ring, Duncan was behind Kobe, now he is ahead.... cuz he got a ring

Duncan was never behind Kobe.

People who were stupid enough to ever put Duncan behind Kobe should still be putting Duncan behind Kobe to maintain their consistency in their stupidity.

[ElNono]

This is true but winning b2b is still a feat in itself.

What's the feat?

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Duncan was never behind Kobe.

People who were stupid enough to ever put Duncan behind Kobe should still be putting Duncan behind Kobe to maintain their consistency in their stupidity.

The BSPN analysts did

[z0sa]

Duncan was never behind Kobe.

People who were stupid enough to ever put Duncan behind Kobe should still be putting Duncan behind Kobe to maintain their consistency in their stupidity.

Tim actually was "behind" Kobe maybe for a year or two, around 01/02, when both were still relatively unproven commodities, at least on the GOAT scale.

Ever since Timmy singlehandedly carried the Spurs to the 03 title though, there's been little question.

In fact around 03's pretty much where the two split off, career wise. They both stayed with the same franchise but other than that, the way the two players handled their business since then have been polar opposites.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

So then they should think Horry is ahead of Michael since they only look at rings, are do you want to quit sounding like a fucking idiot?

lol fail, you are such a moron, you are altering the argument to include role players who werent past league MVP's

Oh and smooth move with the deleted post brah, google cache that shit lol

[Brunodf]

If he is once again the team best player in the playoffs, i would say top 3

[ambchang]

Tim actually was "behind" Kobe maybe for a year or two, around 01/02, when both were still relatively unproven commodities, at least on the GOAT scale.

Ever since Timmy singlehandedly carried the Spurs to the 03 title though, there's been little question.

In fact around 03's pretty much where the two split off, career wise. They both stayed with the same franchise but other than that, the way the two players handled their business since then have been polar opposites.

You kidding right?

Duncan already had a finals MVP under his belt and was the clear #1 on a title contender. He was widely regarded as one of the two or three best players in the league with his 99 MVP taken away from him by pedophile.

Kobe was the clear #2 in the same breath as Vince carter back then.

[z0sa]

You kidding right?

Duncan already had a finals MVP under his belt and was the clear #1 on a title contender. He was widely regarded as one of the two or three best players in the league with his 99 MVP taken away from him by pedophile.

Kobe was the clear #2 in the same breath as Vince carter back then.

?
I"m talking about a small window of approximately a year or so when Kobe had 3 titles to Tim's "0.5", and had beaten up on the Spurs pretty handily during those. Not all of the threepeat era by any means, basically, around the time after the 2002 title. It didn't last very long because of Tim's efforts the very next postseason, but I do believe that existed. I was a kid back then but I remember the Spurs getting their asses kicked by the Lakers and Kobe specifically a couple yrs before we won again.

[Arcadian]

Tim is still the centerpiece. One could actually argue he's still a top 10 player. While these later years cannot be valued as much as his prime years, they're not worthless either. Certainly adding another ring will boost his legacy even more from a longevity perspective.

[hitmantb]

Horry is a bad example, all time great must have at least one MVP and one FMVP, this excludes Parker/Billup/Leonard's of the world as well.

Once you meet this bare minimum requirement, rings become very important. If you go to any player's wiki page, top three stats are always:



5x NBA champion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_champions) (1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NBA_Finals), 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NBA_Finals), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NBA_Finals), 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_Finals), 2014 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NBA_Finals))
3× NBA Finals MVP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell_NBA_Finals_Most_Valuable_Player_Award ) (1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NBA_Finals), 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NBA_Finals), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NBA_Finals))
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Most_Valuable_Player_Award) (2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_NBA_season)–2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002%E2%80%9303_NBA_season))


Unbiased, Jordan/Kareem/Russell (He had far and away the most stacked team by a mile vs his competition, but if you penalize him because of team strength you have to look at everyone else and it gets messy) have to be ahead of him in most rankings. Magic Johnson is also slightly ahead with 5/3/3. He is better than everyone else.

LeBron has a great chance of catching him, 1 more ring + FMVP + MVP would do it for me.

In my heart, with bias, Duncan had the weakest supporting cast, smallest market and cheapest roster to work with, he would have won far more if he played for say, Phil Jackson with Kobe. In my head, he is the Captain America of all time great's. His individual dominance is less than say, Shaq the incredible Hulk or other players on the list with the exception of 2002/2003, but he more than makes it up with leadership which gives the entire Spurs team a huge boost, and turns second tier stars like Parker/Ginobili into gold.

[kobe4life]

Duncan was never behind Kobe.

People who were stupid enough to ever put Duncan behind Kobe should still be putting Duncan behind Kobe to maintain their consistency in their stupidity.

You are proving to be stupid considering that Duncan has always been behind God. I can't stress that enough God is superior to Duncan and always has been. God's career has been a story book career while Duncan's career has been the equivalent of watching a boring soap opera.

[Ditty]

On the same level as Jordan.

[cjw]

Back to back is overrated. Arguably, leading your team to winning championships 5-6 years apart has much more merit, even more so when you do it more than once. It shows consistent dominance.

Or 15 years apart. Jordan only managed to get his 7 years apart. Kobe (first three thanks to Shaq, last one thanks to Artest bailing him out) went 9 years from first to last. So combining those two periods is just one year more than Duncan's stretch. Amazing.

[~O~]

Who better? I think this will place him right behind Jordan not factoring position and best at his position.

[DMC]

lol fail, you are such a moron, you are altering the argument to include role players who werent past league MVP's

Oh and smooth move with the deleted post brah, google cache that shit lol

But all they think about is rings

[Kidd K]

If Lebron didnt win another ring, BSPN would still have him as a top 5 guy, Duncan can hold him off with a 6th and head to head win this year over the Cavs

BSPN's opinion doesn't mean a fuckin thing. They've lost credibility a LONG time ago. They have fuckin Kobe as a top 3-5 ffs. . .I remember they had like 5 Lakers and MJ as their top 6. It's a joke.

As for Duncan "holding him off". . .he already has 2 head to head wins over LeBron, and it was less than 30 seconds away from being 3-0. Duncan is WAY above LeBron. LeBron is getting his cock gobbled by ESPN because he posts huge stats while barely anyone else is now. . .but let's be real. Duncan did too in his prime. Back in the 80's and 90's there were SEVERAL players who put up similar and better stats than LeBron (DRob, Hakeem, MJ, Ewing, Shaq, Magic, Kareem, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Barkley, etc etc). He's not actually -that- unique and special, it's just we barely have any other big stat guys at the moment where the past half decade or so of pure mediocrity has allowed LeBron to stand out far more than he would have pretty much any time between 1970-2008.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

BSPN's opinion doesn't mean a fuckin thing. They've lost credibility a LONG time ago. They have fuckin Kobe as a top 3-5 ffs. . .I remember they had like 5 Lakers and MJ as their top 6. It's a joke.

As for Duncan "holding him off". . .he already has 2 head to head wins over LeBron, and it was less than 30 seconds away from being 3-0. Duncan is WAY above LeBron. LeBron is getting his cock gobbled by ESPN because he posts huge stats while barely anyone else is now. . .but let's be real. Duncan did too in his prime. Back in the 80's and 90's there were SEVERAL players who put up similar and better stats than LeBron (DRob, Hakeem, MJ, Ewing, Shaq, Magic, Kareem, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Barkley, etc etc). He's not actually -that- unique and special, it's just we barely have any other big stat guys at the moment where the past half decade or so of pure mediocrity has allowed LeBron to stand out far more than he would have pretty much any time between 1970-2008.

Look, I agree with you 100% but Im just saying BSPN indoctrinates the masses and they have a lot of influence on how players will be remembered long term by fans who never saw them play. So it is Duncan's best interest to get more rings.

[ambchang]

?
I"m talking about a small window of approximately a year or so when Kobe had 3 titles to Tim's "0.5", and had beaten up on the Spurs pretty handily during those. Not all of the threepeat era by any means, basically, around the time after the 2002 title. It didn't last very long because of Tim's efforts the very next postseason, but I do believe that existed. I was a kid back then but I remember the Spurs getting their asses kicked by the Lakers and Kobe specifically a couple yrs before we won again.

That was when shaq> Duncan. Which was true before Duncan went on a tear the next three seasons.

Again, Kobe was compared to the Carter's and mcgradys back in the day.

[ambchang]

Tim is still the centerpiece. One could actually argue he's still a top 10 player. While these later years cannot be valued as much as his prime years, they're not worthless either. Certainly adding another ring will boost his legacy even more from a longevity perspective.

Longevity has not been an issue for Duncan for a long time. It matters some what for players whose careers got cut short by injuries like grant hill, but for guys like Duncan, once you've had 14/15 years of high level play doesn't matter any more.

Jabbar didn't build on the legacy with that 88 title, he had been great for 2 decades and a title as the third wheel doesn't do anything for him.

[100%duncan]

I don't think winning more rings will elevate Duncan's all time status, because he's not the main cog any longer. Would Shaq be ranked higher if he had 5 rings, if he got one with another team playing 20 minutes a night or so? If someone else gets the finals MVP?

Tim is who he is, and the rankings, if honest about "greatest", have to consider his entire body of work. Another ring won't hurt him, but unless he takes the team on his shoulders, he's not going to be considered any better for it by most "pundits". Even the blip from ring 5 will revert to Kobe talk after the beginning of the new season. You'll see.

He led the team in the playoffs in minutes played, advanced metrics, and putting up 17 and 10 a night prior to the finals.

[diego]

even with reduced minutes and less FGA, IMO duncan is still the main cog of the spurs. Not many players around today that can carry the frontcourt on both ends of the court, and his advanced stats reflect that. Its true that he's not the same player he once was, and its true that this spurs team doesnt have a traditional superstar + supporting cast format, but for his age and for the level of big men in the league, who would you replace duncan with for last years playoff run? dirk? love? davis? hibbert :lol? Davis is the only one who comes close to being a two way player but he is still a raw kid compared to duncan. Even in his diminished state duncan is a top 3 big man in the league, a huge part of what the spurs do and the most difficult to replace on the roster.

[Galileo]

By major accomplishments, Duncan is tied for third all-time already.

[lefty]

Bird was awesome TBH

[Arcadian]

Longevity has not been an issue for Duncan for a long time. It matters some what for players whose careers got cut short by injuries like grant hill, but for guys like Duncan, once you've had 14/15 years of high level play doesn't matter any more.

Jabbar didn't build on the legacy with that 88 title, he had been great for 2 decades and a title as the third wheel doesn't do anything for him.

Really? He was still a crucial part of that title team. I think adding that 6th ring does make Kareem look better - perhaps somewhat superficially, as you say, but it helps nonetheless.

*Edit: Just to clarify, I say "superficially" only in the context of shallow debates, such as "Kobe 5 > Duncan 4." Just counting rings in such a thoughtless fashion is never relevant. However, winning a championship is an accomplishment that should never be completely reduced as superficial. Being a starting player on a championship team is always meaningful, whether you're a 22-year-old Finals MVP or a 38-year-old role player.

[ambchang]

Really? He was still a crucial part of that title team. I think adding that 6th ring does make Kareem look better - perhaps somewhat superficially, as you say, but it helps nonetheless.

*Edit: Just to clarify, I say "superficially" only in the context of shallow debates, such as "Kobe 5 > Duncan 4." Just counting rings in such a thoughtless fashion is never relevant. However, winning a championship is an accomplishment that should never be completely reduced as superficial. Being a starting player on a championship team is always meaningful, whether you're a 22-year-old Finals MVP or a 38-year-old role player.

Jabbar's legacy was cemented long before that. He was the third or even fourth option at that point, you don't add to a legacy by putting up 15/6, playing a clear supporting role, even on a championship team.

[Arcadian]

Jabbar's legacy was cemented long before that. He was the third or even fourth option at that point, you don't add to a legacy by putting up 15/6, playing a clear supporting role, even on a championship team.

It was cemented yes, but that doesn't mean it was completely unsusceptible to improvement. Being a 15/6 role-player on a championship team definitely says something positive about him. At the very least, it says he was able to be a major contributor on a championship team even at the tail end of his career. Maybe it wasn't the difference between him being the 2nd vs. 3rd (or whatever) greatest player of all time, but it still made some tangible difference IMO.

[ambchang]

It was cemented yes, but that doesn't mean it was completely unsusceptible to improvement. Being a 15/6 role-player on a championship team definitely says something positive about him. At the very least, it says he was able to be a major contributor on a championship team even at the tail end of his career. Maybe it wasn't the difference between him being the 2nd vs. 3rd (or whatever) greatest player of all time, but it still made some tangible difference IMO.

It didn't hurt, of course. Basically, if he was considered GOAT of all time at that point, he wasn't getting any GOATer, if he was #2 all time, he wasn't leapfrogging whoever was in front of him and became GOAT, and so on and so forth.

He was what he was, with or without that 88 ring.

Same with Duncan, if you had Duncan as #7 or #8 of all time before the 14 championship, then you should have him as the #7 or #8 of all time. He's not leapfrogging Magic or Jordan or Jabbar, and he's still in that Hakeem/Bird/Moses tier.

[Arcadian]

It didn't hurt, of course. Basically, if he was considered GOAT of all time at that point, he wasn't getting any GOATer, if he was #2 all time, he wasn't leapfrogging whoever was in front of him and became GOAT, and so on and so forth.

He was what he was, with or without that 88 ring.

Same with Duncan, if you had Duncan as #7 or #8 of all time before the 14 championship, then you should have him as the #7 or #8 of all time. He's not leapfrogging Magic or Jordan or Jabbar, and he's still in that Hakeem/Bird/Moses tier.

I guess my position is this: an older player can only improve his legacy, but he can't hurt it. I wouldn't have held it against Duncan if he had never won a 5th ring, but I do think it helps him that he did.

But I agree that Duncan's 5th ring (and Kareem's 6th) doesn't really affect his ranking much. I had him top 5 all time 10 years ago, and that hasn't changed.

[ambchang]

I guess my position is this: an older player can only improve his legacy, but he can't hurt it. I wouldn't have held it against Duncan if he had never won a 5th ring, but I do think it helps him that he did.

But I agree that Duncan's 5th ring (and Kareem's 6th) doesn't really affect his ranking much. I had him top 5 all time 10 years ago, and that hasn't changed.

I am pretty much the exact opposite. Look at Kobe Bryant, his actions the last few years really hurt his legacy, these are things we knew for a long time, but it's becoming more and more apparent that even die hard Laker fans have to acknowledge that Kobe destroys teams as much as he helps them succeed