Ukraine situation deterioriating

[RandomGuy]

Putin was doing everything short of directly sending troops over the border. WAS.

NATO is saying that Russian troops have crossed over, and that represents a VERY dangerous escalation.

http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2cAWrC9ejlmMI7g8tTbvjRNWjuU=/775x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/653918/453598304.0.jpg

Russia's 280-truck aid convoy parks in Russia. (ANDREY KRONBERG/AFP/Getty)

"On Friday, as a Russian "aid convoy" of 280 trucks neared the Ukrainian border, NATO said that a separate "incursion" of Russian military forces had crossed into Ukraine. The Russian forces are reportedly in eastern Ukrainian territory held by Russia-backed separatist rebels, according to NATO and Ukrainian government officials. Some reports suggest that there may be open fighting between Ukrainian military forces and the Russian incursion, but it's far from clear whether that's true or what precisely is happening on the ground.

Did Russia really invade Ukraine outright? Is this now an open war? Here is a running account of what we know and what we don't know."

(rest of article)

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/15/6006281/russia-ukraine-war-what-we-know

The Russians show no sign of backing down, despite the recent sanctions, although the crisis is fast moving.

[pgardn]

Putin was doing everything short of directly sending troops over the border. WAS.

NATO is saying that Russian troops have crossed over, and that represents a VERY dangerous escalation.

http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2cAWrC9ejlmMI7g8tTbvjRNWjuU=/775x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/653918/453598304.0.jpg

Russia's 280-truck aid convoy parks in Russia. (ANDREY KRONBERG/AFP/Getty)

"On Friday, as a Russian "aid convoy" of 280 trucks neared the Ukrainian border, NATO said that a separate "incursion" of Russian military forces had crossed into Ukraine. The Russian forces are reportedly in eastern Ukrainian territory held by Russia-backed separatist rebels, according to NATO and Ukrainian government officials. Some reports suggest that there may be open fighting between Ukrainian military forces and the Russian incursion, but it's far from clear whether that's true or what precisely is happening on the ground.

Did Russia really invade Ukraine outright? Is this now an open war? Here is a running account of what we know and what we don't know."

(rest of article)

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/15/6006281/russia-ukraine-war-what-we-know

The Russians show no sign of backing down, despite the recent sanctions, although the crisis is fast moving.

You know this is heavily debated in the Kremlin.
They have moved troops back and forth.
They have already backed down, they could and should have moved much sooner.

[Wild Cobra]

I see a picture of trucks, which could be supplies for those who need it in the ethnic Russian areas of the Ukraine.

We know the Ukrainian government its full of shit on this ordeal. They have repeatedly lied.

Hard to tell what the truth really is.

[boutons_deux]

I see a picture of trucks, which could be supplies for those who need it in the ethnic Russian areas of the Ukraine.

We know the Ukrainian government its full of shit on this ordeal. They have repeatedly lied.

Hard to tell what the truth really is.

but you are sure the Ukranians are lying, and your macho man Putin is a humanitarian saint.

[RandomGuy]

You know this is heavily debated in the Kremlin.
They have moved troops back and forth.
They have already backed down, they could and should have moved much sooner.

There is a great deal of debate, of that I am sure.

How the Kremlin will react to the seperatists getting eventually crushed is still unknown.

Ultimately I think it is more likely than not, that Putin will back down and not send in active troops.

That statement involves a great deal of uncertainty. I think they have seriously underestimated how much they have pissed off the Ukrainian government.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

In the meantime, separatists were retreating from Donestk (sp?). Maybe they pull a China in 1951 but I doubt it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Isn't the Red Cross inspecting the trucks before they cross the border? I heard on the news yesterday they flew some big ass industrial xray machine in to double check that nothing military related was hidden in the cargo.

[Wild Cobra]

but you are sure the Ukranians are lying, and your macho man Putin is a humanitarian saint.

It's a well established fact the the current leadership there is full of it on many things they have said. The question is, are they lying again or not.

[RandomGuy]

I see a picture of trucks, which could be supplies for those who need it in the ethnic Russian areas of the Ukraine.

We know the Ukrainian government its full of shit on this ordeal. They have repeatedly lied.

Hard to tell what the truth really is.

Difficult, but not *that* hard.

Both sides have repeatedly lied, but it is kinda obvious who the aggressor is, c'est va?

[RandomGuy]

Isn't the Red Cross inspecting the trucks before they cross the border? I heard on the news yesterday they flew some big ass industrial xray machine in to double check that nothing military related was hidden in the cargo.

Hopefully.

It smacks of a PR stunt. The Russians are trying to put lipstick on a pig for PR purposes. The propaganda machine on the Russian side has been nothing short of impressive.

[Wild Cobra]

Difficult, but not *that* hard.

Both sides have repeatedly lied, but it is kinda obvious who the aggressor is, c'est va?

Well, what I make of all this so far is the ethnic Russians loosing faith in the Nazi Ukraine government, which illegally ousted their president early this year. Those in power now are responsible for all they followed in this crisis.

What would happen in America if someone illegally ousted Obama? What type of riots would follow?

[pgardn]

There is a great deal of debate, of that I am sure.

How the Kremlin will react to the seperatists getting eventually crushed is still unknown.

Ultimately I think it is more likely than not, that Putin will back down and not send in active troops.

That statement involves a great deal of uncertainty. I think they have seriously underestimated how much they have pissed off the Ukrainian government.

I read some stuff that said the Ukrainian regulars were allowing Ukrainian militias to do the dirty work in urban areas. They gotta stop that or they will give the Russians a legit excuse. The Ukrainians are not exactly angels, they have their far right trouble makers as well. It's kinda weird as both sides have these Nationalistic Nazi types.

[pgardn]

Well, what I make of all this so far is the ethnic Russians loosing faith in the Nazi Ukraine government, which illegally ousted their president early this year. Those in power now are responsible for all they followed in this crisis.

What would happen in America if someone illegally ousted Obama? What type of riots would follow?

Is Obama a Russian puppet?

[RandomGuy]

Well, what I make of all this so far is the ethnic Russians loosing faith in the Nazi Ukraine government, which illegally ousted their president early this year. Those in power now are responsible for all they followed in this crisis.

What would happen in America if someone illegally ousted Obama? What type of riots would follow?

Sou are siding with Putin on this? It's all the fault of the government in Kiev, and Moscow is blameless?

Really?

[Wild Cobra]

Sou are siding with Putin on this? It's all the fault of the government in Kiev, and Moscow is blameless?

Really?
I didn't say Moscow was blameless. However, I see them as the lesser of two evils here.

Have you ever looked into the history of racism in the Ukraine? I suggest you learn a bit, and try to understand how it affects things here.

[Wild Cobra]

Ukraine shells Hospital:

http://rt.com/news/162456-slavyansk-shelling-ukraine-army/

http://my.firedoglake.com/operationmindcrime/2014/05/30/video-ukrainian-armyright-sector-bomb-childrens-school-and-hospital/

http://libya360.wordpress.com/2014/05/30/kiev-regime-war-crimes-mount-bombing-schools-homes-and-hospitals-in-east-ukraine/

Cuts power and water, and attacks city:

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/745507

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/08/18/341303567/ukraine-reports-of-attack-on-civilian-convoy-near-luhansk

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebel-city-lugansk-verge-humanitarian-catastrophe-134114295.html

[cheguevara]

:lmao but, but what happened to the US accusations that Putin had shot down the Airliner? :lol

crickets

Ukraine and US throwing anything and seeing if anything sticks

[pgardn]

:lmao but, but what happened to the US accusations that Putin had shot down the Airliner? :lol

crickets

Ukraine and US throwing anything and seeing if anything sticks

Show me one link that states V. Putin shot down the airliner.

[CosmicCowboy]

The Ukraine barely even knows how to be a country. They have the geographical bad luck to have been everyone else's bitch going back freaking forever and have never been self governed with any historical pride.

[cheguevara]

Show me one link that states V. Putin shot down the airliner.

Obama blames Russia, Putin for flight MH17 shooting
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Obama-blames-Russia-Putin-for-flight-MH17-shooting/articleshow/38628710.cms

Top Obama administration officials said Monday they have high confidence that Russian influence and weaponry was directly responsible for downing Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 last week.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/21/white-house-mh17_n_5607469.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/18/obama-calls-immediate-ceasefire-ukraine/?page=all



google is your friend, comrade. Try it next time :tu

[ChumpDumper]

Obama blames Russia, Putin for flight MH17 shooting
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Obama-blames-Russia-Putin-for-flight-MH17-shooting/articleshow/38628710.cms

Top Obama administration officials said Monday they have high confidence that Russian influence and weaponry was directly responsible for downing Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 last week.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/21/white-house-mh17_n_5607469.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/18/obama-calls-immediate-ceasefire-ukraine/?page=all



google is your friend, comrade. Try it next time :tuI read the articles. Obama did not say Putin shot down the airliner.

[Wild Cobra]

Obama blames Russia, Putin for flight MH17 shooting
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Obama-blames-Russia-Putin-for-flight-MH17-shooting/articleshow/38628710.cms

Top Obama administration officials said Monday they have high confidence that Russian influence and weaponry was directly responsible for downing Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 last week.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/21/white-house-mh17_n_5607469.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/18/obama-calls-immediate-ceasefire-ukraine/?page=all



google is your friend, comrade. Try it next time :tu

You can also find claims and evidence the Ukrainians shot it down.

Don't expect information from either side to be accurate.

[m>s]

so what? the US isn't going to do anything about it. the savior of the white race will march down to washington and slap the shit out of that n!gg3r himself.

http://i0.wp.com/topekasnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Ioe3KfF.gif

[pgardn]

Obama blames Russia, Putin for flight MH17 shooting
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Obama-blames-Russia-Putin-for-flight-MH17-shooting/articleshow/38628710.cms

Top Obama administration officials said Monday they have high confidence that Russian influence and weaponry was directly responsible for downing Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 last week.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/21/white-house-mh17_n_5607469.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/18/obama-calls-immediate-ceasefire-ukraine/?page=all



google is your friend, comrade. Try it next time :tu

It says the US holding him RESPONSIBLE for the airline being shot down.
Nowhere does it say Putin shot the plane.
Quit being such a disingenuous bee hatch.

The separatists did this most likely, the area was overrun by them destroying the scene.
The Dutch put the blame squarely on Russia also. Supplying little boys with big toys is not good.

[ChumpDumper]

lol m<s fapping to Putin

[pgardn]

so what? the US isn't going to do anything about it. the savior of the white race will march down to washington and slap the shit out of that n!gg3r himself.

http://i0.wp.com/topekasnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Ioe3KfF.gif

Not militarily.
The US will close the noose slowly.
I do love the gif above though.

[cheguevara]

It says the US holding him RESPONSIBLE for the airline being shot down.
Nowhere does it say Putin shot the plane.
Quit being such a disingenuous bee hatch.


who's in charge of Russia? Putin
who do Obama aides speak for? Obama

Even a child could conclude that it's a fact US(and therefore Obama) blamed Russia for the plane shot down(therefore Putin) quit being a troll tbh. Either join the conversation as an adult or you'll be ignored in the future. thanks



The separatists did this most likely, the area was overrun by them destroying the scene.
The Dutch put the blame squarely on Russia also. Supplying little boys with big toys is not good.

:lol most likely. excellent investigative reporting Sherlock. case closed :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The Ukraine barely even knows how to be a country. They have the geographical bad luck to have been everyone else's bitch going back freaking forever and have never been self governed with any historical pride.

They were conquered by Genghis who went a bit genocide but Kiev as a principality has a very long history. Much better identity than the stuff east of the Balkans. It's similar to Hungary and Poland both of which are our NATO allies and who were also raped by the Mongols and part of the iron curtain.

What is going on is a landgrab on a former soviet satellite. Land already has been grabbed. The people supporting the Russians are pretty disappointing if you want to talk about historical and national pride.

[pgardn]

who's in charge of Russia? Putin
who do Obama aides speak for? Obama

Even a child could conclude that it's a fact US(and therefore Obama) blamed Russia for the plane shot down(therefore Putin) quit being a troll tbh. Either join the conversation as an adult or you'll be ignored in the future. thanks



:lol most likely. excellent investigative reporting Sherlock. case closed :lol

I don't deal with hallucinating certainty like you.

Congrats on your new Axis of Wackos:

Che
WC
m>s

A formidable lineup of intellectual dearth.

[pgardn]

Che thinks Chemtrails are to blame?

[Agloco]

google is your friend, comrade. Try it next time :tu

Did you read the articles?


Don't bother answering that.

[cheguevara]

Did you read the articles?


Don't bother answering that.

yup. US(Obama) blamed Russia(Putin).

but seems like the blamegame has been quiet lately wonder why?

[Agloco]

I don't deal with hallucinating certainty like you.

Congrats on your new Axis of Wackos:

Che
WC
m>s

A formidable lineup of intellectual dearth.

Nothing new about these folks. It's a fresh, mind-numbing experience each and every time I poke around here.

[m>s]

russia STRONK

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-18/nato-to-shun-major-eastern-footprint-in-nod-to-russia.html

i'll take a multipolar world any day over US global hegemony

[Agloco]

yup. US(Obama) blamed Russia(Putin).

but seems like the blamegame has been quiet lately wonder why?

Your reading comprehension skills need remediation. You do this a lot tbh.

[pgardn]

yup. US(Obama) blamed Russia(Putin).

but seems like the blamegame has been quiet lately wonder why?

Lots of other stuff going on chief...

[m>s]

Your reading comprehension skills need remediation. You do this a lot tbh.
aren't you supposed to be a nuclear physicist?

calculate the blast radius for me when the first russian nuke hits NYC and all the little degenerates get fried

[cheguevara]

Your reading comprehension skills need remediation. You do this a lot tbh.

I guess the reading comprehension of thousands other journalists need remediation too :lol

google up Obama blames Putin you will encounter hundreds of articles agreeing with me. Sorry you cannot make a simple conclusion using your own brainpower.

[pgardn]

Nothing new about these folks. It's a fresh, mind-numbing experience each and every time I poke around here.

Its such an eclectic makeup.

A nazi, a communist I don't know what, and a daft Republican

[Agloco]

aren't you supposed to be a nuclear physicist?

calculate the blast radius for me when the first russian nuke hits NYC and all the little degenerates get fried

Give me the payload.

[pgardn]

Give me the payload.

Hes still upset about Dresden annihilated conventionally.

[m>s]

10 mt

[m>s]

Hes still upset about Dresden annihilated conventionally.until Dresden is avenged we will fight to the last man alongside our white Slavic brothers.

[pgardn]

until Dresden is avenged we will fight to the last man alongside our white Slavic brothers.

You attacked your white Slavic brothers.
Your Fuehrer thought they were dogs.

[m>s]

Propaganda to rally the people because Stalin had to be stopped

Slavs are comrades

[pgardn]

Propaganda to rally the people because Stalin had to be stopped

Slavs are comrades

Not according to William Shirer.

[Winehole23]

Hitler's take on the Slavs is probably too nuanced for m>s's fellow race socialists. That the Slavs are European and "white" seems to trump doctrinal conformity with Nazism's founder.

[m>s]

Your divide and conquer tactics won't work here JIDF

Slavs are comrades. Many Slavs died fighting on the German side against Stalin, taking revenge against their communist tormentors. In many cases, just the message that the Wehrmacht was approaching was enough to pop it off and they wouldn't even wait for the Germans to get there.

[RandomGuy]

I didn't say Moscow was blameless. However, I see them as the lesser of two evils here.

Have you ever looked into the history of racism in the Ukraine? I suggest you learn a bit, and try to understand how it affects things here.


If you want to talk about shitty things that governments do, read up on Chechnya.

Should larger countries dictate to their smaller neighbors who should be running those smaller countries?

[RandomGuy]

You can also find claims and evidence the Ukrainians shot it down.

Don't expect information from either side to be accurate.

I expect that NATO electronic sensors to be pretty accurate.

You are gullible if you believe for a second that Ukraine might have shot down that airliner, or assign such evidence any weight at all.

[m>s]

I expect that NATO electronic sensors to be pretty accurate.

You are gullible if you believe for a second that Ukraine might have shot down that airliner, or assign such evidence any weight at all.
And the separatists did it why? If they're that shitty to mistake an airliner for a military jet then how did they last this long.

all one has to ask is this - who benefits?

[Infinite_limit]

I expect that NATO electronic sensors to be pretty accurate.

You are gullible if you believe for a second that Ukraine might have shot down that airliner, or assign such evidence any weight at all.
"The United States contributes between one-fifth and one-quarter of NATO's budget. "

I do not trust anything the USA has 1/4 control over

[pgardn]

"The United States contributes between one-fifth and one-quarter of NATO's budget. "

I do not trust anything the USA has 1/4 control over

What about 2/9 ths?

[RandomGuy]

"The United States contributes between one-fifth and one-quarter of NATO's budget. "

I do not trust anything the USA has 1/4 control over

Meh. It doesn't take much trust especially when the evidence provided merely confirms common sense.

The redneck seperatists were given sophisticated SAMs according to Russias own news service, which they were using to blow Ukrainian aircraft, including transports out of the sky. Immediately afterwards, the rebels claimed they had shot down another transport, then deleted that claim in a huge hurry. The rebels have not been using aircraft, as they have none, so the Ukranian anti-aircraft defenses have had no need to shoot anything down.

Not hard to figure out what happened, unless one have some inbuilt confirmation bias preventing one from looking at it objectively.

[cantthinkofanything]

Give me the payload.

that's what she said

(sorry...)

[RandomGuy]

And the separatists did it why? If they're that shitty to mistake an airliner for a military jet then how did they last this long.

all one has to ask is this - who benefits?

As noted, it was a horrible mistake by the amatuer hour seperatists.

They lasted this long, because the Ukraine military is pretty sad, and they are getting a LOT of weapons and russian nationals propping them up.

Here is a decent bit on Ukrainian military readiness, props to Russian military analysis:

http://www.jamestown.org/regions/russia/single/?tx_ttnews%5Bpointer%5D=6&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=42106&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=653&cHash=ba8bc60cad652577673baf7824855558#.U_TRrvldVV g
Their assessment dovetails with many other's. Just google the terms: Ukrainian military readiness for more.

The separatists will not last much longer though. Despite the crappy overall capabilities of the Ukrainian military, they vastly outnumber the separatists, and have both artillery, armored, and air capabilities that the separatists sorely lack.

The main Russians that have been heading the groups have fled the rapidly closing pocket that they were in, and many other Russian nationalists that were interspersed appear also to be getting while the getting is good.

Ukraine rebel movement faces uncertain future
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebel-movement-faces-uncertain-future-085220247.html


Alexander Borodai, the premier of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, and Igor Strelkov, his military commander, had together formed the rebels' leadership against Ukrainian troops since armed men first seized state buildings across eastern Ukraine in April.

Friends from Moscow and comrades in arms, they were viewed by the separatists and by Kiev as Russia’s men. Their successive departures in the past two weeks may mark a turning point in a conflict which has dragged ties between Russia and the West to their lowest since the Cold War.

Among separatist ranks, the news has fueled fears that other Russian fighters may abandon the insurgency.

Interviews with rebel fighters and recorded conversations of rebel leaders provided by Ukrainian security services reveal a separatist movement struggling for survival against larger and better-equipped Ukrainian forces.

Recent statements from Putin, or lack thereof, have indicated that he is getting ready to cut his losses.

Hopefully, he will not make the final blunder of moving any active troops into Ukraine, a mistake that would have some very severe consequences.

[RandomGuy]

all one has to ask is this - who benefits?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html


A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
Therefore claim X is false.

A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim.



Ukraine benefits.

If, as implied, you are trying to say the NATO/Ukraine assertion that it was the separatists is false, simply because they benefit most, that is faulty reasoning as noted above.

Ultimately, the balance of available evidence supports this assertion, quite overwhelmingly.

[xeromass]

Mark Paslavsky, American fighting in Donbas batallion has been killed in fighting for Ilovaysk.

Interview for VICE:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4DpPr9xy5U

His twitter:

https://twitter.com/BSpringnote