Radical Cleric calls for assassination of democratically elected leader

[Ocotillo]

Republican man of God (http:/http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006/)

Pat Robertson, host of Christian Broadcasting Network's The 700 Club and founder of the Christian Coalition of America, called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

From the August 22 broadcast of The 700 Club:

ROBERTSON: There was a popular coup that overthrew him [Chavez]. And what did the United States State Department do about it? Virtually nothing. And as a result, within about 48 hours that coup was broken; Chavez was back in power, but we had a chance to move in. He has destroyed the Venezuelan economy, and he's going to make that a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent.

You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war. And I don't think any oil shipments will stop. But this man is a terrific danger and the United ... This is in our sphere of influence, so we can't let this happen. We have the Monroe Doctrine, we have other doctrines that we have announced. And without question, this is a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool of oil, that could hurt us very badly. We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.

Chavez probably got more votes in his election then Robertson did when he ran for president.

[MannyIsGod]

Classic! :lol

[Trainwreck2100]

That guy's not a cleric.

[FromWayDowntown]

He's quite a Christian. He's openly hoped for stricken Supreme Court justices to become more ill and now he's calling for assassination based on a religious difference.

That strikes me as behavior modeled on Christ's. :rolleyes

[smeagol]

He's quite a Christian. He's openly hoped for stricken Supreme Court justices to become more ill and now he's calling for assassination based on a religious difference.
His differences with Chavez are not religious but political.

This is one thing that amazes me about Christians in the US. Why are they so quick to support wars?

[exstatic]

His differences with Chavez are not religious but political.

This is one thing that amazes me about Christians in the US. Why are they so quick to support wars?


Because they're not Christians, they just talk the talk.

[Ocotillo]

That guy's not a cleric.

Wikpedia says:

A cleric is:

A member of the clergy of a religion, especially one that has trained or ordained priests, preachers, or other religious professionals

From Pat Robertson's web site biography:


and a master of divinity degree from New York Theological Seminary in 1959.

I thought he was a minister but that is not mentioned in his biography although he is best know for his television ministry CBN. I stand by my description of him as a radical cleric.

[Duff McCartney]

He has destroyed the Venezuelan economy, and he's going to make that a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent.

Yeah right..like Muslims really care about Venzuelans.

[jochhejaam]

Provide a link please Octillo. Can't find anything on Robertson's website regarding this and can't google any part (pasted parts of your posted quote word for word) of what he's alleged to have said.

Thanks

[exstatic]

Yeah, right. Hugo Chavez Mustaffah.

[Ocotillo]

I tried clicking the link I have in the original post and it is not coming up for some reason. Might try this. (http://www.medialmatters.org)

Hmm, that doesn't seem to be working either. It is on the front of mediamatters.org page today. It has a video as well but I have not been able to get that to work either.

[Trainwreck2100]

Wikpedia says:

A cleric is:

A member of the clergy of a religion, especially one that has trained or ordained priests, preachers, or other religious professionals

From Pat Robertson's web site biography:


Wikiedia

Clergy is the generic term used to describe the formal religious leadership within a given religion. The term comes from Greek κληρος (fortune, or metaphorically, heritage).

Depending on the religion, clergy usually take care of the ritual aspects of the religious life, teach or otherwise help in spreading the religion's doctrine and practices. They often deal with life-cycle events such as childbirth, circumcision, coming of age ceremonies, marriage, and death. Clergy of most faiths work both inside and outside formal houses of worship, and can be found working in hospitals, nursing homes, missions, armies, etc.

There is a significant difference between clergy and theologians; clergy have the above-mentioned duties while theologians are scholars of religion and theology, and are not necessarily clergy. A lay-person can be a theologian. The two fields, of course, often overlap

The man's a theologian yes, but not a member of the clergy, therefore he is not a cleric.

[jochhejaam]

I tried clicking the link I have in the original post and it is not coming up for some reason. Might try this. (http://www.medialmatters.org)

Hmm, that doesn't seem to be working either. It is on the front of mediamatters.org page today. It has a video as well but I have not been able to get that to work either.

Found it, thanks.

I'll have to dig a little deeper into what's going on in Venezuela before commenting.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006

[Spurminator]

I try to be as loving and forgiving as possible, but as Christian, I believe that there's a nice warm seat waiting for Pat Robertson in hell. He and his Politicavangelist Herd have done irreparable damage to Christianity in America.

That is all.

[boutons]

quit splitting hairs. He's widely known, but not widely revered, as REVEREND Pat Robertson, eg:

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2003/101203.asp

I don't know if he's a pastor for a congregation, or affiliated with one of the big Protestant bureucracies, but he's just another hair-spray TV hustler that certainly will always follow the money.

For all intents and purposes, he's a Protestant cleric. Just another militant of the "Christian" Taliban.

[smeagol]

I try to be as loving and forgiving as possible, but as Christian, I believe that there's a nice warm seat waiting for Pat Robertson in hell. He and his Politicavangelist Herd have done irreparable damage to Christianity in America.

That is all.
Agreed

[Trainwreck2100]

I try to be as loving and forgiving as possible, but as Christian, I believe that there's a nice warm seat waiting for Pat Robertson in hell. He and his Politicavangelist Herd have done irreparable damage to Christianity in America.

That is all.

That is why he is not a cleric, he's done nothing normal memebers of a clergy would do.

[jochhejaam]

quit splitting hairs. He's widely known, but not widely revered, as REVEREND Pat Robertson, eg:

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2003/101203.asp

I don't know if he's a pastor for a congregation, or affiliated with one of the big Protestant bureucracies, but he's just another hair-spray TV hustler that certainly will always follow the money.

For all intents and purposes, he's a Protestant cleric. Just another militant of the "Christian" Taliban.


What's the point of an outdated and contrived attack (your link) on Robertson? You're a professional critic, nothing more.

I certainly don't agree with everything he says or does but he's done more for people in 1 hour of his life than you will in a lifetime. His organizations provide millions of tons of food, medicines and other forms of aid on a yearly basis to the needy and starving of the world.

When's the last time you fed someone that was literally starving to death?

I put a lot more stock into the actions of a man than I do his words.

[jochhejaam]

Agreed


I'm glad you and spurminator don't have any input into where I spend eternity.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

I'm glad you and spurminator don't have any input into where I spend eternity.

Eternity is an illusion created by the Church.

[Trainwreck2100]

Eternity is an illusion created by the Church.

Actually eternity existed before the Church

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Actually eternity existed before the Church

My point is that it's an idea created by people to feel that there is something after life.

[Spurminator]

Thanks for that.

May I direct you to The God Thread, Part 2?

[MannyIsGod]

Joch,

You have problems with calling out Pat Robertson when he's advocating an assasination?

Holy shit.

I thought the point of the attack was pretty damn self evident. Can you imagine Christ calling for an assasination? Because I sure as hell can't.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and I think you of all people said words were just as important as actions, so I wish you would apply your criteria equally.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Thanks for that.

May I direct you to The God Thread, Part 2?

I already posted in that one...but when jochhejaam posts religious propaganda (90% of his posts quote the bible), it just gets on my nerves...so I post evil communist atheist propaganda to steady the ship! :lol

[Spurminator]

Robertson is a Pharisee. (Doncha see?)

[jochhejaam]

Joch,


You have problems with calling out Pat Robertson when he's advocating an assasination?
Holy shit.
MIG, if you look at my posts in this thread you won't find me defending what he said. How'd you come up with that?
I have a problem with someone judging him that knows nothing about him except the "controversial" things reported by the media. They don't and won't post anything positive he's done or stands for. Rather like judging a book by it's cover.
I recall you stating you like to have all the facts before you render opinions about things, remember that?


I thought the point of the attack was pretty damn self evident. Can you imagine Christ calling for an assasination? Because I sure as hell can't.[/QUOTE]

You said yourself you don't believe Christ is the Son of God so you don't know him at all. He's either who He claims he is or he's a liar, and since you refute what he says then you in essence have called Him a Liar. Why would you use the name of someone you consider to be a Liar to make a point?
Would it bother me personally to find out that a brutal dictator had been assassinated? No Would it bother you?




Matt10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. -Jesus-
More or less repugnant than an assassination? ^^^^^^^^^

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, so now you're the one deciding whether I know Christ or not? Aren't you supposed to leave that judging to the big guy in the sky?

Hmmmmm.

[jochhejaam]

Oh, and I think you of all people said words were just as important as actions, so I wish you would apply your criteria equally.


Care to show me where I said that? You won't find it.
Could you possibly be confusing something I may have stated about Faith with words?

Keep it factual please.

[j-6]

How are you supposed to keep any conversation about faith factual?

[jochhejaam]

Oh, so now you're the one deciding whether I know Christ or not? Aren't you supposed to leave that judging to the big guy in the sky?

Hmmmmm.

No, Scripture doesn't say I can't make my own assessment on that. You are judged by your unbelief "Manny : I don't believe He's the Son of God", or judged by what you believe.


1 Corinthians 6:2
Don't you know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters"?

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, I give up. The problem with arguing with Christians on this subject is that if you search the bible you can find a damn saying for EVERYTHING.

[jochhejaam]

I already posted in that one...but when jochhejaam posts religious propaganda (90% of his posts quote the bible), it just gets on my nerves...so I post evil communist atheist propaganda to steady the ship! :lol


So your point is that your Godless and you think posting hogwash negates the words of Christ and God. okay



And regarding me getting on your nerves;
John 15
18 Jesus ; "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

[Spurminator]

Okay, but back on topic.

Pat Robertson is a douche bag.

[jochhejaam]

Oh, I give up. The problem with arguing with Christians on this subject is that if you search the bible you can find a damn saying for EVERYTHING.

Weak ending MIG. Resigned to defeat. It was inevitable but you caved in so easily.

You/I don't have the answers MIG, He does. I realize that, you don't...yet.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

So your point is that your Godless and you think posting hogwash negates the words of Christ and God. okay


"You're" or "You are", and English is my third language...

yeah, it's hogwash...at least I don't deny my hogwash!




John 15
18 Jesus ; "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Awww, cute. But this is the political forum, not the Church forum. The only Church around is the Church of Manu, join or spend an eternity watching the Hawks!

[jochhejaam]

Okay, but back on topic.

Pat Robertson is a douche bag.


:) I've gotta go to bed Spurmy, alarm goes off in 5 hours.

[Trainwreck2100]

Back on topic, he's not a damn cleric.

[Jelly]

Weak ending MIG. Resigned to defeat. It was inevitable but you caved in so easily.

You/I don't have the answers MIG, He does. I realize that, you don't...yet.

well, it would be nice if you could ask Him what the answers are, cause we are having some problems down here...so, whatever connections you have would be much appreciated. Thanks a bunch

[j-6]

John 15
18 Jesus ; "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

There's some pretty weird shit in the bible, too.

God commands people to eat their own children - (Lev26:29; Dt28:53,57; 2Kg6:28-29; Is9:19-20; Jer19:9; Ezek5:10)

People consuming their own excrement and urine - (2Kg18:27, Is36:12; Ezek4:12,15),

Women having extramarital affairs - (Dt25:11-12)

Semen (Lev15:16-18;Gen38:9-10)

Wet dreams (Dt23:10-11)

Punishment for menstration (Lev15:19-30; 20:38)

Murdering your children (Ps137:9; Ex21:15, 17; Dt21:21)

The killing of unborn infants as God's punishment for sinning (Hosea9:14,16; 13:16)

Slavery is OK (Eph6:5, Col3:22)

And one of my faves, praising men like Lot (2Pet2:8) who tried to give his daughters to a group of men to rape (Gen19:8) and later impregnated them (Gen19:31,36).

[Spurminator]

I don't really care what you call him, to be honest. He's a politician who manipulates people through their faith for a partisan agenda.

People like that piss me off more than anyone.

[Spurminator]

There's some pretty weird shit in the bible, too.

God commands people to eat their own children - (Lev26:29; Dt28:53,57; 2Kg6:28-29; Is9:19-20; Jer19:9; Ezek5:10)

People consuming their own excrement and urine - (2Kg18:27, Is36:12; Ezek4:12,15),

Women having extramarital affairs - (Dt25:11-12)

Semen (Lev15:16-18;Gen38:9-10)

Wet dreams (Dt23:10-11)

Punishment for menstration (Lev15:19-30; 20:38)

Murdering your children (Ps137:9; Ex21:15, 17; Dt21:21)

The killing of unborn infants as God's punishment for sinning (Hosea9:14,16; 13:16)

Slavery is OK (Eph6:5, Col3:22)

And one of my faves, praising men like Lot (2Pet2:8) who tried to give his daughters to a group of men to rape (Gen19:8) and later impregnated them (Gen19:31,36).


And away we go.


I tried...

[j-6]

And away we go.


I tried...


Sorry, but I couldn't resist. There's still five beers in the fridge.

[Trainwreck2100]

I don't really care what you call him, to be honest. He's a politician who manipulates people through their faith for a partisan agenda.

People like that piss me off more than anyone.

He is a pretensious little bastard isn't he. He funny to watch though, almost, but not as good as, Bill O'Reily. Get drunk, watch, it's hilarious.

[j-6]

He is a pretensious little bastard isn't he. He funny to watch though, almost, but not as good as, Bill O'Reily. Get drunk watch, it's hilarious.


I used to love to get fucked up and watch Benny Hinn "minister" to people. He'd rattle some prayer off, touch the victim on the head, and they'd faint and fall backwards. Throw in some necromancy and the belief that he's possessed by Aimee McPherson's spirit, and watch the audience swoon.

Good shit.

[jochhejaam]

I don't really care what you call him, to be honest. He's a politician who manipulates people through their faith for a partisan agenda.

People like that piss me off more than anyone.

I agree with you that there are a lot of charlatans out there and more than pissing us off they've pissed God off! Dangerous ground!

I just think the good Robertson's org. has done far outweighs the bad.

[Dos]

so people are off topic.. I for one think it's good that chavez is gone.. he will destabilize the region, soon military coups will prop up again causing more dirty wars.. like chile, argentina and other countries including mexico had during the 70's, 80's...

[Dos]

Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson called on Monday for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, calling him a "terrific danger" to the United States.

Robertson, founder of the Christian Coalition of America and a former presidential candidate, said on "The 700 Club" it was the United States' duty to stop Chavez from making Venezuela a "launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism."

Chavez has emerged as one of the most outspoken critics of President Bush, accusing the United States of conspiring to topple his government and possibly backing plots to assassinate him. U.S. officials have called the accusations ridiculous.

"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it," Robertson said. "It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... and I don't think any oil shipments will stop."

Electronic pages and a message to a Robertson spokeswoman were not immediately returned Monday evening.

Venezuela is the fifth largest oil exporter and a major supplier of oil to the United States. The CIA estimates that U.S. markets absorb almost 59 percent of Venezuela's total exports.

Venezuela's government has demanded in the past that the United States crack down on Cuban and Venezuelan "terrorists" in Florida who they say are conspiring against Chavez.

Robertson accused the United States of failing to act when Chavez was briefly overthrown in 2002.

"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said.

"We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he continued. "It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

[boutons]

It's freaks on the national stage like Robertson, calling for the assassination of the a foreign head of govt that gives people around the world to hate the USA. Or like that Repug who said it's "understandable" that the judiciary+family would be murdered because people didn't like their judgements.

I can guarantee you Rev Pat's nuttiness is in all the foreign press. It's "international" news when a US national public figure calls for the assassination of a democratically elected head of a foreign government. And who can deny that there right-wing gun-nuts, super-patriots who support the good cleric Pat in his assassination talk?

People around the world, mostly, love the freedom the USA represents, but they expect the USA to couple responsibility with that freedom. Assholes like Robertson represent a total breakdown in responsibility.

[exstatic]

He's now a dictator? :lol He's the democratically elected president of his country. "Dictator" must be the new euphamism for "sitting on a pot of oil that Halliburton and Bushco wants".

[Extra Stout]

I certainly don't agree with everything he says or does but he's done more for people in 1 hour of his life than you will in a lifetime. His organizations provide millions of tons of food, medicines and other forms of aid on a yearly basis to the needy and starving of the world.

When's the last time you fed someone that was literally starving to death?

I put a lot more stock into the actions of a man than I do his words.

Hamas feeds the hungry and cares for the sick, too. Shall we therefore excuse their calls to exterminate the Israelis?

Are you even familiar with the full measure of Robertson's political beliefs? You may like his charity work, but believe me, he is no friend to American democracy.

[smeagol]

Agreed
I take it back. I don't know if Pat Robertson will ultimately end in Hell, but as a Christian, I do not understand his comments on killing Chavez.

And I hate Chavez myself.

[smeagol]

He's now a dictator? :lol He's the democratically elected president of his country. "Dictator" must be the new euphamism for "sitting on a pot of oil that Halliburton and Bushco wants".
The line between a dictatorship and what's going on in Venezuela is extremelky blurry. I think Chavez fits the definition of a dictator.

Its the sad story of Latin America. After years of democraticaly elected governments who do shit to increase the standard of living of the general public, and on top are corrupt as Hell, along comes a guy like Chavez, a military man, who wins an election, mainly because the people are tired of the politicians. Then the guy starts governing the country in a totalitarian way. Truly sad.

There is a poster from Venezuela, we can ask him what he thinks of Chavez. I know my Venezuelan friends here in NY would love to see the fucker dead.

[SWC Bonfire]

I take it back. I don't know if Pat Robertson will ultimately end in Hell, but as a Christian, I do not understand his comments on killing Chavez.

And I hate Chavez myself.

That's because Robertson is a senile old man. His comments are only feeding Chavez's paranoid delusions that the US is out to get him. Chavez needs to worry about the millions of people who voted to recall him out of office & demonstrated against him.

[Extra Stout]

The line between a dictatorship and what's going on in Venezuela is extremelky blurry. I think Chavez fits the definition of a dictator.

Its the sad story of Latin America. After years of democraticaly elected governments who do shit to increase the standard of living of the general public, and on top are corrupt as Hell, along comes a guy like Chavez, a military man, who wins an election, mainly because the people are tired of the politicians. Then the guy starts governing the country in a totalitarian way. Truly sad.

There is a poster from Venezuela, we can ask him what he thinks of Chavez. I know my Venezuelan friends here in NY would love to see the fucker dead.The Spanish model isn't particularly effective with regard to developing stable democracies. The only reason Spain has held on for the past 30 years is because of the influence of the EU.

Neither is the Italian model. Neither is the German model. They only finally settle on democracy after having their entire country blown to shit twice in thirty years.

So I guess it's no surprise that the Latin American countries have such trouble. It's a shame, really, in the case of Argentina in particular. Given their human and natural resources, they ought to be a world power along the lines of a France or a Germany, if only they could get their shit together. But they never can. Brazil is more powerful than they are. Chile is more powerful AND more stable despite having less to work with.

We Americans are fortunate that our political culture is founded on the British model, and enhanced by a few transcendant Virginians. Look at the UK, the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand... prosperous and stable countries all.

But then again the Brits have been working on this "representative government" idea since 1215, so they had a pretty good headstart or everybody else in modern times.

[Dos]

I wonder what the left says about amensty international's comments on venezuela...

At least 14 people died and as many as 200 were wounded during the demonstrations in circumstances that have yet to be clarified. Members of the security forces detained several people who were not involved in criminal acts and subsequently tortured them.

· Carlos Eduardo Izcaray, a cellist with the Venezuela Symphony Orchestra and music teacher, reportedly was a bystander during violent clashes between opposition demonstrators and the Guardia Nacional (GN), the National Guard. Members of the GN detained him and reportedly beat him on the head with their batons (rolos y peinillas) and fists and dragged him by the hair as he tried to leave the area. GN officers then forcibly took him to their barracks where one GN official reportedly applied electric shocks to the back of his neck and hands and threatened to kill him.

· 23-year-old student Deivis Jordan Meneses de Freitas was walking home from work when he reportedly witnessed violent clashes between the GN and protestors. Advancing GN forces beat him with batons and helmets and threw tear gas powder on his face and back. One GN official reportedly shot him twice in the body with rubber bullets at close range and another beat him repeatedly on his bare buttocks and legs with sticks and metal bars.

Subsequent investigations to establish the facts around these alleged abuses have been slow and inadequate, underscoring concerns about the commitment of key institutions—including the police, National Guard, Attorney General's Office, Judiciary and Human Rights Ombudsman's Office—to investigate and prevent human rights abuses impartially.

Failure to ensure that these institutions carry out their duties effectively and impartially will weaken the fragile rule of law and fuel Venezuela's unresolved political crisis. It is vital that the government, the opposition and their respective supporters do not encourage human rights abuses or undermine the rule of law. All must restrict themselves to their right to peaceful demonstrations and assembly.
###

For a full copy of the report, "Venezuela: Human rights under threat," please see: http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=F075A829FDC8DDCF80256E8C004200F9

yeah I want to see the left defend that... this guy should go..

call in the MIC teams..

[Extra Stout]

Oh, and if Robertson ever got his way, all 800 years of progress in our democratic development would be thrown out in one fell swoop. Only registered Christians would retain citizenship, the right to vote and hold office, the right to own land and capital, etc.

While the Constitution would be retained, it would be emasculated, as a judicial system much like what the Iranians have would insure that all jurisprudential interpretation is done in light of the fundamentalist reading of the Bible.

And, oh yeah, our foreign policy would become considerably more aggressive, as we can see by Robertson's own words.

But his kind make up, what, five or ten percent, tops? They can only get in power by revolution, and I don't care how Christian they say they are, I'd sign up to kill them all if they tried.

[SWC Bonfire]

Here is an interesting article about redistribution of land in South America:

http://beef-mag.com/mag/beef_beyond_eminent_domain/

If I'm gonna make it down to see the big ranches in Venezuela I'd better hurry!

[Dos]

and pat robertson was elected when?

and who exactly does he speak for?

and pat robertson has to power to do what?

should pat robertson have the freedom to say what he wants?

[FromWayDowntown]

I wonder what the left says about amensty international's comments on venezuela...

At least 14 people died and as many as 200 were wounded during the demonstrations in circumstances that have yet to be clarified. Members of the security forces detained several people who were not involved in criminal acts and subsequently tortured them.

· Carlos Eduardo Izcaray, a cellist with the Venezuela Symphony Orchestra and music teacher, reportedly was a bystander during violent clashes between opposition demonstrators and the Guardia Nacional (GN), the National Guard. Members of the GN detained him and reportedly beat him on the head with their batons (rolos y peinillas) and fists and dragged him by the hair as he tried to leave the area. GN officers then forcibly took him to their barracks where one GN official reportedly applied electric shocks to the back of his neck and hands and threatened to kill him.

· 23-year-old student Deivis Jordan Meneses de Freitas was walking home from work when he reportedly witnessed violent clashes between the GN and protestors. Advancing GN forces beat him with batons and helmets and threw tear gas powder on his face and back. One GN official reportedly shot him twice in the body with rubber bullets at close range and another beat him repeatedly on his bare buttocks and legs with sticks and metal bars.

Subsequent investigations to establish the facts around these alleged abuses have been slow and inadequate, underscoring concerns about the commitment of key institutions—including the police, National Guard, Attorney General's Office, Judiciary and Human Rights Ombudsman's Office—to investigate and prevent human rights abuses impartially.

Failure to ensure that these institutions carry out their duties effectively and impartially will weaken the fragile rule of law and fuel Venezuela's unresolved political crisis. It is vital that the government, the opposition and their respective supporters do not encourage human rights abuses or undermine the rule of law. All must restrict themselves to their right to peaceful demonstrations and assembly.
###

For a full copy of the report, "Venezuela: Human rights under threat," please see: http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=F075A829FDC8DDCF80256E8C004200F9

yeah I want to see the left defend that... this guy should go..

call in the MIC teams..

I think President Bush should trump up some reasons to support invasion and stick with the Iraqi precedent.

Venezuela, here we come!!

[boutons]

"I wonder what the left says about amensty international's comments on venezuela..."

DOS, typical tactic. We aren't talking about civil rights, we are talking about a democratically elected head of state's "right to life".

So, DOS, civil liberties violations in Venezuela has you defending mullah Robertson's call to murder Chavez?

[Extra Stout]

and pat robertson was elected when?

and who exactly does he speak for?

and pat robertson has to power to do what?

should pat robertson have the freedom to say what he wants?Robertson can speak his mind. In fact, it's better that way. There's no way to tell how kooky his ideas are unless he is free to express them. People might think he and those who support him were just mainstream conservative Christians if he couldn't go on TV and call for people to be murdered.

[Extra Stout]

"I wonder what the left says about amensty international's comments on venezuela..."

DOS, typical tactic. We aren't talking about civil rights, we are talking about a democratically elected head of state's "right to life".

So, DOS, civil liberties violations in Venezuela has you defending mullah Robertson's call to murder Chavez?
Typical extremist thinking:

1) Robertson identifies with Christians, so it would be disloyal for a fellow believer to allow infidels to criticize him without rebuttal, no matter how ridiculous Robertson's comments might be.

2) Criticizing the idea that Chavez should be assassinated is equivalent to assent to all of Chavez's policies and actions.

3) There is no inconsistency in using Amnesty International's criticisms of a foreign country, while dismissing their criticisms of the U.S. as blind leftist anti-Americanism.

And here's one that would have been coming soon:

4) If a person criticizes the idea of killing Chavez, he must also believe that assassinating Hitler in 1933 would have been bad too, and therefore implicitly supports the Nazi cause and the Holocaust.

Wingnut theocrats are actually quite similar to dingbat lefties in the way they think.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Typical extremist thinking:

1) Robertson identifies with Christians, so it would be disloyal for a fellow believer to allow infidels to criticize him without rebuttal, no matter how ridiculous Robertson's comments might be.

2) Criticizing the idea that Chavez should be assassinated is equivalent to assent to all of Chavez's policies and actions.

3) There is no inconsistency in using Amnesty International's criticisms of a foreign country, while dismissing their criticisms of the U.S. as blind leftist anti-Americanism.

And here's one that would have been coming soon:

4) If a person criticizes the idea of killing Chavez, he must also believe that assassinating Hitler in 1933 would have been bad too, and therefore implicitly supports the Nazi cause and the Holocaust.

Wingnut theocrats are actually quite similar to dingbat lefties in the way they think.

As well as crack head righties.

[sbsquared]

What a big uproar over nothing! Pat Robertson was only stating HIS OPINION, on HIS OWN SHOW, on HIS NETWORK! Isn't that what freedom of speech is all about? He's not saying everybody should agree with him, nor is he giving policy advice to the Bush Administration.

Cindy Sheehan calls the President the world's biggest terrorist and accuses him of the premeditated murder of her son and the media gives her a pass; yet, Pat Robertson says something controversial and everyone is all in a tizzy. Doesn't make sense to me!

[Trainwreck2100]

At least he's not camping outside of his house.

[FromWayDowntown]

What a big uproar over nothing! Pat Robertson was only stating HIS OPINION, on HIS OWN SHOW, on HIS NETWORK! Isn't that what freedom of speech is all about? He's not saying everybody should agree with him, nor is he giving policy advice to the Bush Administration.

Cindy Sheehan calls the President the world's biggest terrorist and accuses him of the premeditated murder of her son and the media gives her a pass; yet, Pat Robertson says something controversial and everyone is all in a tizzy. Doesn't make sense to me!

Sure, he can say it. But the joy of Free Speech doesn't interfere when the consequences of your speech come back on you. Pat Robertson's comments are offensive, IMO. For that, he deserves to be criticized. Just as so many chose to criticize Michael Moore, Jane Fonda, Barbara Streisand, the Dixie Chicks and whoever else has publicly criticized Bush Administration policies.

Cindy Sheehan has been all over the media, and has been roundly criticized by right-wing talkers (I'm still not sure why a talker with a radio or TV show doesn't count as "media," but whatever). Pat Robertson's comments are also all over the media and he's being criticized by those who disagree with him. Where's the problem?

[Extra Stout]

What a big uproar over nothing! Pat Robertson was only stating HIS OPINION, on HIS OWN SHOW, on HIS NETWORK! Isn't that what freedom of speech is all about? He's not saying everybody should agree with him, nor is he giving policy advice to the Bush Administration.

Cindy Sheehan calls the President the world's biggest terrorist and accuses him of the premeditated murder of her son and the media gives her a pass; yet, Pat Robertson says something controversial and everyone is all in a tizzy. Doesn't make sense to me!Really? No big deal? So if Al Sharpton went on TV and said that Vicente Fox ought to be assassinated, that wouldn't be newsworthy? Right-wing pundits on FOX wouldn't be crying out how this proves how unhinged the left has become?

And where do you get the idea that "freedom of speech" = "freedom from criticism?"

No "tizzy" over Cindy Sheehan? Really? So nobody's been talking about her? Where have you been? Seems to me that dumb bitch Sheehan got plenty of criticism.

This is the same old crap from the theocrats. Robertson or that Inhofe dude from Oklahoma will make some fascist-sounding crack, get called onto the carpet for it, and all the little drones will start crying, "Wah! Wah! Why is the media always picking on us! We Christians are so persecuted! Wah! Wah!" Then when there are real cultural issues to deal with, traditionalists lose a lot of credibility because of all the energy that's been expended defending the helmet-haired charlatans on the Heresy Channel.

Now I'm going to wait and watch for the idiot cracker monkey "Christians" to come out of the woodwork thinking I'm a liberal or something.

[Dos]

"I wonder what the left says about amensty international's comments on venezuela..."

DOS, typical tactic. We aren't talking about civil rights, we are talking about a democratically elected head of state's "right to life".

So, DOS, civil liberties violations in Venezuela has you defending mullah Robertson's call to murder Chavez?

SO I take it your all for torture and violating peoples civil rights...

robertson doesn't speak for me, but he can say whatever he wants, unless you want
to take that right away too...

[FromWayDowntown]

SO I take it your all for torture and violating peoples civil rights...

robertson doesn't speak for me, but he can say whatever he wants, unless you want
to take that right away too...

It seems to me that Pat Robertson is far more interested in telling me how to think and what to say than I am in trying to deny him his right to speak and prove that he's a total fool.

[Dos]

if robertson wants to make a ass of himself.. then he has that right.. right?

[Extra Stout]

if robertson wants to make a ass of himself.. then he has that right.. right?Certainly. I fully support both his right to make an ass of himself and my right to call him an ass.

[smeagol]

My point is that it's an idea created by people to feel that there is something after life.
How do you know its a "created" idea?

[smeagol]

Yes, it hit the Argentine newspapers.

This guy makes Christians in general look bad.

[CharlieMac]

His comments are as lame as actually throwing a grenade at a president.

[Ocotillo]

His comments are newsworthy because he made a serious showing in the Republican caucuses in Iowa in '96 I believe. He has personal access to the sitting president of the U.S. He is a "political leader and commentator"

The remarks, Chavez notwithstanding, reflect how "dangerous" the thinking of this fundamentalist Christian is....

Republicans such as Norm Coleman of Minnesota and another senator whose name escape me at the moment have denounced the comments. These two are currently in Brazil.

Why does the world hate us is asked in another thread? Headlines like this in South American newspapers don't help.

Finally, he is free to say whatever he wants just as I am. I don't have a television network that is on most televisions in American. So I can stand on a street corner and shout out my opinions or post on the internet or write a newspaper. Difference is, my opinion is not going to make headlines anywhere, his will.......

Thus when you have that high of a profile and make an utter fool of yourself with your remarks, expect people to be in a "tizzy" about it.

He has been in the public spotlight for years now. Cindy Sheehan has been for a month now. Who should have more polish when it comes to making public comments?

[jochhejaam]

well, it would be nice if you could ask Him what the answers are, cause we are having some problems down here...so, whatever connections you have would be much appreciated. Thanks a bunch


Letter From God to Jelly (and all)

My Child...

You may not know me, but I know everything about you...Psalm 139:1
I know when you sit down and when you rise up...Psalm 139:2
I am familiar with all your ways...Psalm 139:3
Even the very hairs on your head are numbered...Matthew 10:29-31
For you were made in my image...Genesis 1:27
In me you live and move and have your being...Acts17:28
For you are my offspring...Acts 17:28
I knew you even before you were conceived...Jeremiah 1:4-5
I chose you when I planned creation...Ephesians 1:11-12
You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book...Psalm139:15-16
I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live...Acts17:26
You are fearfully and wonderfully made...Psalm 139:14
I knit you together in your mother's womb...Psalm 139:13
And brought you forth on the day you were born...Psalm 71:6
I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me...John 8:41-44
I am not distant and angry, but am the complete _expression of love...1 John 4:16
And it is my desire to lavish my love on you...1 John 3:1
Simply because you are my child and I am your father...1 John 3:1
I offer you more than your earthly father ever could...Matthew 7:11
For I am the perfect father...Matthew 5:48
Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand...James 1:17
For I am your provider and I meet all your needs...Matthew 6:31-33
My plan for your future has always been filled with hope...Jeremiah 29:11
Because I love you with an everlasting love...Jeremiah 31:3
My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore...Psalm 39:17-18
And I rejoice over you with singing...Zephaniah 3:17
I will never stop doing good to you...Jeremiah 32:40
For you are my treasured possession...Exodus 19:5
I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul...Jeremiah 32:41
And I want to show you great and marvelous things...Jeremiah 33:3
If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me...Deuteronomy 4:29
Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart...Psalm 37:4
For it is I who gave you those desires...Philippians 2:13
I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine...Ephesians 3:20
For I am your greatest encourager...2 Thessalonians2:16-17
I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles...2 Corinthians1:3-4
When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you...Psalm 34:18
As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart...Isaiah 40:11
One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes...Revelation 21:3-4
And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth...Revelation 21:3-4
I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus...John 17:23
For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed...John17:26
He is the exact representation of my being...Hebrews1:3
He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you...Romans 8:31
And to tell you that I am not counting your sins...2Corinthians 5:18-19
Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled...2Corinthians 5:18-19
His death was the ultimate _expression of my love for you...1 John 4:10
I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love...Romans 8:31-32
If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me...1 John 2:23
And nothing will ever separate you from my love again...Romans 8:38-39
Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen...Luke 15:7
I have always been Father, and will always be Father...Ephesians 3:14-15
My question is...Will you be my child?...John 1:12-13

I am waiting for you...Luke 15:11-32

Love,
Your Dad.
Almighty God

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

Using The Bible to Answer Everything For Dummies.

[smeagol]

:lol

Using The Bible to Answer Everything For Dummies.
I thought joch's post was pretty neat.

[cecil collins]

That's because Robertson is a senile old man. His comments are only feeding Chavez's paranoid delusions that the US is out to get him. Chavez needs to worry about the millions of people who voted to recall him out of office & demonstrated against him.

As if millions don't demonstrate against our leader...at home and abroad.

[smeagol]

cecil, Chavez is indefendible. Please do read about what this guy is all about. It's not just his hate towards the US. He is turning Venezuela into another Cuba.

If you know any Venezuelans, asking them about him.

[Extra Stout]

cecil, Chavez is indefendible. Please do read about what this guy is all about. It's not just his hate towards the US. He is turning Venezuela into another Cuba.

If you know any Venezuelans, asking them about him.Err... don't take it for granted that cecil thinks "another Cuba" is a bad thing. cecil appears to sympathize with communism. He makes that apparent in other posts.

At least he's honest about being a pinko commie, unlike a lot of other lefties.

[smeagol]

Err... don't take it for granted that cecil thinks "another Cuba" is a bad thing. cecil appears to sympathize with communism. He makes that apparent in other posts.

At least he's honest about being a pinko commie, unlike a lot of other lefties.
Well sometimes posts can be decieving. I was labelled a communist by some. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

In Argentina, I'm definetly at the right of the political spectrum.

In the US, I guess I would be conservative with regards to some issues and liberal with regards to others.

[SWC Bonfire]

As if millions don't demonstrate against our leader...at home and abroad.

Did a majority vote to remove him from office, only to be told the election count was "invalid"? Nope, they re-elected him.

I don't know when the next election is, but it will get ugly. I wouldn't be surprised if Chavez tries to suspend elections for some reason.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Love,
Your Dad.
Almighty God

Dear Dad:

I took some money from your wallet for booze, bitches and pot.
Thank you,
Your son.

[cecil collins]

I don't know when the next election is, but it will get ugly. I wouldn't be surprised if Chavez tries to suspend elections for some reason.

More presumptions.

[cecil collins]

cecil, Chavez is indefendible. Please do read about what this guy is all about. It's not just his hate towards the US. He is turning Venezuela into another Cuba.

If you know any Venezuelans, asking them about him.

I will find out more, but have little problem with him as of now. I am not a communist, but I think that socialism in theory is good. In practice, it has been pretty ugly, but so have the various political systems of many struggling countries. I guess the problem here is that it's just another asshole in charge. Thanks Smeagol for your suggestion, as you probably do have much more knowledge on the matter. And Stout, I don't think most liberals are commies. Unless you mean the extreme that are much farther left than the moderate democrats, and it seems to me that those are few in number.

[Extra Stout]

I am not a communist, but I think that socialism in theory is good. In practice, it has been pretty ugly, but so have the various political systems of many struggling countries.
European-style mixed socialism isn't bad. It just represents a trade-off based upon different priorities from what America has. Europe is willing to sacrifice some economic growth and personal opportunity for more economic security.

But Marxism is a horrible theory. In order for it to work, humans must be perfectly altruistic. They must always place "the greater good" above their own self-interest. In reality, maybe 0.5% of the population ever does that.


I guess the problem here is that it's just another asshole in charge.
The only way you don't get that under Marxist socialism is with a benevolent dictator. With a benevolent dictator, just about any economic system will work.


And Stout, I don't think most liberals are commies. Unless you mean the extreme that are much farther left than the moderate democrats, and it seems to me that those are few in number.
I don't see how anyone could be sympathetic to the kind of system Castro and Chavez are running and not be a communist, unless they just have no clue about what those two are really like.