Adrian Peterson indicted on child abuse charges

[djohn2oo8]

It's all over twitter and Ian Rappaport tweeted it.

[Blake]

Uhoh

[Silver&Black]

:wow

[Chinook]

Ironic as hell.

[spurraider21]

Ironic as hell.

[SupremeGuy]

Damn, players dropping left and right.

[AlexJones]

Liberal media once again wishing to dear god this would happen to a civilized christian white man like Manning or Tebow. They don't get anything out of ripping apart a nigg3r

[Jeff Van Gundy]

Liberal media once again wishing to dear god this would happen to a civilized christian white man like Manning or Tebow. They don't get anything out of ripping apart a nigg3r

Oh stfu

[spurraider21]

:lol

[SupremeGuy]

Oh stfuHe's right though.

The media has historically turned a blind eye to domestic violence and child abuse in the black community because they didn't want to anger their democratic brethren. But, the problem has become so large and unavoidable that the media has to begrudgingly finally shine light on the issues. Even now, the media and ESPN are desperately trying to spin the story so that the focus isn't on Rice anymore, but on Goodell and when/what he knew about the incident.

[01Snake]

He disciplined HIS kid using a switch. Oh the horror!!!

The media hype is out of fucking control.

[Aztecfan03]

I'm hearing this is over spanking his child with a switch. Im not sure what they mean by switch.

[Malik Hairston]

Fuck, he's on my fantasy team..smh..

[Trainwreck2100]

I'm hearing this is over spanking his child with a switch. Im not sure what they mean by switch.

it's a stick

[spurraider21]

Same. Have him in the ST league

[SupremeGuy]

Fuck, he's on my fantasy team..smh..One of the fight things I thought about, tbh. My asshole friend choose him with the first overall pick. lol

[spurraider21]

I'm hearing this is over spanking his child with a switch. Im not sure what they mean by switch.
I'm thinking it's a typo and they meant crowbar but we will see

[Kawhi]

Michael Sam ruined the NFL

[angrydude]

roid rage

[Darth_Pelican]

ESPN just reported that a warrant has been issued for his arrest :lol

[SupremeGuy]

ESPN just reported that a warrant has been issued for his arrest :lolDamn. :lol

[Kawhi]

Glad I drafted Calvin Johnson over him

[Darth_Pelican]

This story is getting worse for AP.... They are saying he beat the kid with a branch and gave him multiple cuts and bruises, and the Vikes just announced he is out this Sunday

[Kawhi]

He's not gonna play this week

[Darth_Pelican]

Cuts and bruises in the back, ass, scrotum, & ankles.

[DJR210]

This story is getting worse for AP.... They are saying he beat the kid with a branch

Beating kids with fucking "switches" smh. Just more proof that blacks are stuck in the 1860's.

[FkLA]

:lol Ridiculous. The hype surrounding the Rice case I can sorta understand but this is just retarded. I got spanked as a child with a belt/switch and am better for it tbh.

[Darth_Pelican]

AP is screwed because Goodell knows the heat will be on if he doesnt suspend him for AT LEAST the rest of this year.

[Darth_Pelican]

:lol my brother just texted me saying he just changed his fantasy team the Beaters because he drafted both Rice & AP

[ColinB]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/adrian-peterson-indicted-for-child-abuse/

Pics at that link.

[spurraider21]

Peterson suddenly out and my backup is injured. man... Fuck you Holden for taking mcfadden

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

http://ll-media.tmz.com/2014/09/12/0912-adrian-peterson-son-injuries-7.jpg


Not ok

[tlongII]

You can't do that to kids today. AP is screwed.

[Clipper Nation]

Already annoyed by all the old faggots whining about how :cry "they were whooped in 1953 and turned out just fine!!!" :cry The kid's a fucking 4-year-old and those photos are disturbing.... when open wounds to the legs are involved, it stops being discipline and starts being assault....

I can't decide what's creepier, all the boastful texts that he sent to the mother, or the fact that he apparently had a special "whipping room" and a large collection of belts and switches....

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

You can't do that to kids ever. AP is screwed.

FIFY.

That is excessive. No way around it.

[DJR210]

In all seriousness, that's fucking sad. Poor little boy. And at the end of the day he will continue to love and idolize the father that fucking whoops him like a grown man.

In this day an age, there's nearly no behavioral issue that taking away a Nintendo DS etc. (or in my 6 y/o son's case, Pokemon cards) won't fix.

Let's see how that faggot Goodell handles this one..I'm guessing suspend him for two practices.

[Raven]

yuck...

[spurraider21]

I winder if his son had his arms up

[Chris]

I like corporal punishment, but that is going way too far with it. I would expect a heavy hammer in this case.

[manufan10]

Damn, I took him first overall in my fantasy draft. :depressed

[Chris]

It's never OK to hit your kids in anger or frustration. Good parents know when to do it, and when to show restraint.

[pikkiwoki]

Damn, AD went all Django Unchained on the poor kid

[benefactor]

I winder if his son had his arms up
:cry arms up don't switch :cry

[Kawhi]

Who snitched on him?

[Chinook]

Should fall under new DV policy. Peterson's done until November.

[spurraider21]

I wonder if the child will apologize for his role in the incident like ray rice's girl tbqh :lol

[djohn2oo8]

Should fall under new DV policy. Peterson's done until November.

Fuck that. Peterson is done for the year.

[Chinook]

Fuck that. Peterson is done for the year.

Should have said "at least November." Dunno about the cap hit, but he may end up being released.

[Chinook]

It's never OK to hit your kids in anger or frustration. Good parents know when to do it, and when to show restraint.

Damned straight. But there are way too many bad parents out there, so no one can hit their kids.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lol "that team" that picks up Rice and Peterson

[spurraider21]

I got popped plenty of times but never beaten

[Aztecfan03]

Cuts and bruises in the back, ass, scrotum, & ankles.

that isn't just a spanking then.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Already annoyed by all the old faggots whining about how :cry "they were whooped in 1953 and turned out just fine!!!" :cry The kid's a fucking 4-year-old and those photos are disturbing.... when open wounds to the legs are involved, it stops being discipline and starts being assault....

I can't decide what's creepier, all the boastful texts that he sent to the mother, or the fact that he apparently had a special "whipping room" and a large collection of belts and switches....

:lol baby boomers
:lol constantly thumping their chest about how hard they had it when they were born with more opportunity than any other generation ever
:lol ":madrun my dad whipped me 1,000 times every morning and I had to walk uphill to school both ways in weather that was below freezing!"

[pikkiwoki]

:lol "that team" that picks up Rice and Peterson

Cowboys

[SupremeGuy]

:cry arms up don't switch :cryHoly fuck. :lmao

[Clipper Nation]

:lol baby boomers
:lol constantly thumping their chest about how hard they had it when they were born with more opportunity than any other generation ever
:lol Also the most spoiled, entitled and selfish generation ever despite their attempts to deflect those traits onto younger generations....

[SupremeGuy]

I wonder if black people are going to pretend that this isn't a problem in their community either?...

Why do the White devils have to punish rich, proud, and strong black men just for educating their children? :cry

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol Also the most spoiled, entitled and selfish generation ever despite their attempts to deflect those traits onto younger generations....

:lol "You young people these days are always asking for a hand out and don't want to work. Now shut up and go work hard to keep the medicare program you're never going to have solvent for a few more years!"

[DPG21920]

:lol Ridiculous. The hype surrounding the Rice case I can sorta understand but this is just retarded. I got spanked as a child with a belt/switch and am better for it tbh.

Ya - at the first sign of adversity amongst people you don't even know, you flipped out and spammed she-male porn while crying and begging for meaningless symbols like a flag under your name.

I can't imagine what you do in front of people you are comfortable with.

[Chinook]

I believe strongly in corporal punishment. But I can't imagine anything a kid that young could do that would warrant being hit like that. The room thing is where it completely runs off the tracks for me. My parents hit me. Sometimes hard. But they never seemed to enjoy it. And they threatened to hit me much more frequently than they actually did.

[spurraider21]

I believe strongly in corporal punishment. But I can't imagine anything a kid that young could do that would warrant being hit like that. The room thing is where it completely runs off the tracks for me. My parents hit me. Sometimes hard. But they never seemed to enjoy it. And they threatened to hit me much more frequently than they actually did.
Agreed on pretty much all counts. There's a difference between getting smacked around and getting beaten/abused

[spurraider21]

If you actually have to go that far and cause that much damage to get a point across you're probably a terrible parent in the first place

[spurraider21]

:lol the more I think about it the worse it looks

this guy has kids with multiple women, played football when one of his kids was dying, beat up one of his kids, and at one point claimed he was "a slave" while making 8 figures

[DJR210]

:lol "that team" that picks up Rice and Peterson

Jerrah's dream duo in the backfield


:lol the more I think about it the worse it looks

this guy has kids with multiple women, played football when one of his kids was dying, beat up one of his kids, and at one point claimed he was "a slave" while making 8 figures

Don't forget it was his bastard child as well, he didn't think it was important to be his father to begin with

[Chinook]

If you actually have to go that far and cause that much damage to get a point across you're probably a terrible parent in the first place

I will say though, that in my mind, the worse thing a kid can do is abuse their siblings. So I can understand why AD would be upset about it. But when the guy has a room dedicated to instruments of punishment, it makes me wonder if the kid was learning aggressive tendencies from his father. If this was just that someone had seen Peterson throw the kid over his knee and give him a few strong hits with his hand while cussing him out, I'd be on Adrian's side pretty strongly. But damn, this kinda thing is why corporal punishment is pretty much illegal in the first place.

[FkLA]

Ya - at the first sign of adversity amongst people you don't even know, you flipped out and spammed she-male porn while crying and begging for meaningless symbols like a flag under your name.

I can't imagine what you do in front of people you are comfortable with.

smh

[Clipper Nation]

:lol "You young people these days are always asking for a hand out and don't want to work. Now shut up and go work hard to keep the medicare program you're never going to have solvent for a few more years!"

:madrun "The reason why the economy sucks is because your generation is selfish and lazy. It's definitely not that we spent all of your money on perpetual wars and our lavish entitlement-driven lifestyle!" :madrun

[AaronY]

Probably more to this story I'm sure

[spurraider21]

I will say though, that in my mind, the worse thing a kid can do is abuse their siblings. So I can understand why AD would be upset about it. But when the guy has a room dedicated to instruments of punishment, it makes me wonder if the kid was learning aggressive tendencies from his father. If this was just that someone had seen Peterson throw the kid over his knee and give him a few strong hits with his hand while cussing him out, I'd be on Adrian's side pretty strongly. But damn, this kinda thing is why corporal punishment is pretty much illegal in the first place.
that's actually pretty tame tbh :lol

[01Snake]

Didn't see the actual pics til now...AP clearly went over the line. The kids 4.

[spurraider21]

he's not even denying anything... if they really go after him they basically have a confession

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/exclusive-details-on-adrian-peterson-indictment-charges/

[Chinook]

that's actually pretty tame tbh :lol

My mom's a pincher. She'd just come up behind me and catch the skin on the back of my arm between her nail (and twist) while whispering reprimands to me. It's like the stealth-kill of corporal punishment.

[manufan10]

I believe strongly in corporal punishment. But I can't imagine anything a kid that young could do that would warrant being hit like that. The room thing is where it completely runs off the tracks for me. My parents hit me. Sometimes hard. But they never seemed to enjoy it. And they threatened to hit me much more frequently than they actually did.

Same here. I heard a lot of, "This hurts me more than it hurts you," type of stuff. AP's texts read the opposite.

[Aztecfan03]

:lol "that team" that picks up Rice and Peterson

One poor sob in one of my leagues drafted both. But he still has Rice so im not sure if he is paying attention to it.

[spurraider21]

My mom's a pincher. She'd just come up behind me and catch the skin on the back of my arm between her nail (and twist) while whispering reprimands to me. It's like the stealth-kill of corporal punishment.
:rollin... i'd usually just get a bunch of open palm smacks to the head/face region. not stealthy at all, but nothing that causes injury or w/e

[Chinook]

Same here. I heard a lot of, "This hurts me more than it hurts you," type of stuff. AP's texts read the opposite.

My parents never really acted remorseful. But they threatened to spank us well before actually doing it. I think their goal was to hit us hard a few times and just use Pavlovian conditioning to curb our behavior. I think they used the pain they inflicted in the exact right way.

[MeloHype]

People are crying about this more than the kid actually did

[Chinook]

People are crying about this more than the kid actually did

I hate that I already used the 'butthurt' joke in another thread.

[leemajors]

My mom's a pincher. She'd just come up behind me and catch the skin on the back of my arm between her nail (and twist) while whispering reprimands to me. It's like the stealth-kill of corporal punishment.

My mom did too - shit hurts worse than a non belt spanking tbh. I got hit sometimes, but all it made me do is decide whether I could take the whooping if I got caught. Aside from that it did nothing. Never laid a hand on my 9 year old daughter, raising my voice suffices.

[Avante]

It's the stupidity these guys show that gets me, haven't they figured out by now they are NFL players and everyone is watching them? Hell no they can't act like Joe Public, that's part of the deal. I can't believe these guys don't get this.

I was never hurt as a kid by my parents, my mom was more into taking things away, my dad spanked me a couple times but his heart wasn't in it. Can't imagine anyone wham! wham ! wham! on a kid. To the point of actually bruising them.

A guy as big and strong as Adrian Peterson is dumb enought to think he can hit anyone and not cause some serious damage.......fucking idiot!

[Malik Hairston]

It's the stupidity these guys show that gets me, haven't they figured out by now they are NFL players and everyone is watching them? Hell no they can't act like Joe Public, that's part of the deal. I can't believe these guys don't get this.

I was never hurt as a kid by my parents, my mom was more into taking things away, my dad spanked me a couple times but his heart wasn't in it. Can't imagine anyone wham! wham ! wham! on a kid. To the point of actually bruising them.

A guy as big and strong as Adrian Peterson is dumb enought to think he can hit anyone and not cause some serious damage.......fucking idiot!

You realize that causing mental damage to a kid can be just as harmful as physical damage, uh pedo?..

[Avante]

You realize that causing mental damage to a kid can be just as harmful as physical damage, uh pedo?..

I totally agree as I talked about. But.....how about we stay on topic, ok? I;m bored with Avante...ok?

[Blake]

Who snitched on him?

Snitches get switches

[chunticakes]

So how long is he getting suspended for you think?

[Blake]

So how long is he getting suspended for you think?

I think at minimum his season is done, imo.

Possibly his career

[Aztecfan03]

I think at minimum his season is done, imo.

Possibly his career

yeah. If it was a year ago, I think it could have possibly been less but after everything recently, I can't see less than a year.

[Clipper Nation]

Can't imagine anyone wham! wham ! wham! on a kid.

You mean besides you in Olongopo?

[Malik Hairston]

I think at minimum his season is done, imo.

Possibly his career

No way his career is over, but ya, I'd be surprised if he isn't suspended for the season..this is Goodell's last chance to save face and get some positive press IMO..I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL was conspiring to stall the Peterson indictment and decided to release it now that they desperately need positive press in regards to punishing a star player:lol..

[SpursRock20]

Fuck. Just when I was getting excited about the Vikings again.

[Avante]

You mean besides you in Olongopo?

ClipperNation

A little kid got hurt here..ok man? Can we cool your..."Hi, I'm stupid"....ok?

The immaturity we see here....wow~~~~~~

[chunticakes]

You mean besides you in Olongopo?

Ding! Ding!! Ding!!! We have a winner!!!! :lmao

[Avante]

Ding! Ding!! Ding!!! We have a winner!!!! :lmao

Why does everyone totally ignore what I actually said?

[Avante]

Guys, a little kid got hurt...ok? Is this really to best time to play ...Avante...? Come on guys, grow the fuck up. Then ya wonder why I act like I do.

[DD]

Pretty indefensible

[DD]

Who has more fantasy upside--Asiata or McKinnon?

[chunticakes]

Who has more fantasy upside--Asiata or McKinnon?

neither. minny is doing the whole rb by committee thing.

[Robz4000]

Ironic as hell.

[Robz4000]

:lol god damn, AP may be done after this. Am I the only one hoping Jerruh takes him and Rice on the Cowboys next season?

[chunticakes]

:lol god damn, AP may be done after this. Am I the only one hoping Jerruh takes him and Rice on the Cowboys next season?

and manziel.

[Robz4000]

and manziel.

That shitshow would be glorious.

[DD]

Blessing i disguise for Minny in the long run--dude turns 30 in 6 months

[baseline bum]

:lol baby boomers
:lol constantly thumping their chest about how hard they had it when they were born with more opportunity than any other generation ever
:lol ":madrun my dad whipped me 1,000 times every morning and I had to walk uphill to school both ways in weather that was below freezing!"


:lol "You young people these days are always asking for a hand out and don't want to work. Now shut up and go work hard to keep the medicare program you're never going to have solvent for a few more years!"

In my day we had to walk through two feet of snow in 100 degree weather and we didn't complain.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

In my day we had to walk through two feet of snow in 100 degree weather and we didn't complain.

Don't forget uphill both ways.

Even though it doesn't make any logical sense, I've lost count of how many baby boomers I've heard say their walk to/from school everyday was "uphill both ways!".

[Girasuck]

Who has more fantasy upside--Asiata or McKinnon?

I would say Asiata for the next couple weeks, but I picked up McKinnon cause I think he has a better upside for the rest of the season. Being a Ute fan I don't think Asiata can handle being the #1 back for a season. I've seen it before.

[DD]

I would say Asiata for the next couple weeks, but I picked up McKinnon cause I think he has a better upside for the rest of the season. Being a Ute fan I don't think Asiata can handle being the #1 back for a season. I've seen it before.

Good stuff, tenks.

From our ST League:


We are actively monitoring the situation with Adrian Peterson. Until further information is known he will remain on the Can't Cut List.

:lol

[Blake]

Who has more fantasy upside--Asiata or McKinnon?

I grabbed mcKinnon in every league.

[JamStone]

I'm all for whooping your kid. I got whooped with the belt by my dad. Would not consider it child abuse in the slightest. He'd whoop me a couple times and once I started crying really bad, it'd be over and I'd get a little more of a stern lecture afterwards. And it wouldn't be on bare skin. It would be on a clothed butt. The Adrian Peterson reports are a bit troubling though. Apparently, he used the switch like 14-15 times on the 4 year old? 4 seems young for a beating beyond a couple spanks on the butt. And one time, apparently, the switch hit the kid's testicles... and another time wrapped around the leg. And the pictures posted in this thread are apparently like 5-7 days old, so the initial marks were probably much, much worse.

I figure parents who use corporal punishment on their kids for discipline in general use enough discretion so that it simply gets the point across. The reported excess to which Peterson used corporal punishment makes it seem like he got some sort of enjoyment out of it and it wasn't just about disciplining his child. That's not good.

Without knowing the full extent of the facts and only reading and hearing some of these things, it does appear like this was out of control and Peterson doesn't seem to realize how extreme and egregious his actions were.

[JoeTait75]

I am shocked, shocked to find out that violent men play football.

[DPG21920]

I just don't understand poor logic. The "I was hit worse than that" logic doesn't stand up under any scrutinty and it's caveman thinking. Just because something was more socially acceptable in a less advanced time, does not mean it is ok now. Could you imagine applying that same logic to anything else?

"Sir, you stand accused of molesting that child and you admit to it."

"Well, yes, but I was molested as a child and turned out ok so you are over reacting"

[Huey Freeman]

I wonder if black people are going to pretend that this isn't a problem in their community either?...

Why do the White devils have to punish rich, proud, and strong black men just for educating their children? :cry

Im just curious, explain to me how spanking kids is a problem in the black community? I not saying I condone the act, as I said I'm just curious.

[Leon Sandcastle]

Finally another story for ESPN to talk about so they can leave my nigga Ray Rice alone.

[Huey Freeman]

Who snitched on him?

Baby moma and the kid's pediatrician

[Shastafarian]

AP should really be blaming his lord and savior. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Stop strengthening him while he's beating his kids Jesus!

[Darth_Pelican]

AP reinstated for week 3 vs the Saints.

:lol So much for the thought that he was done this season.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11531210/minnesota-vikings-say-adrian-peterson-likely-play-week-3

[MeloHype]

Of course he'll play vs saints

[Brazil]

I just don't understand poor logic. The "I was hit worse than that" logic doesn't stand up under any scrutinty and it's caveman thinking. Just because something was more socially acceptable in a less advanced time, does not mean it is ok now. Could you imagine applying that same logic to anything else?

"Sir, you stand accused of molesting that child and you admit to it."

"Well, yes, but I was molested as a child and turned out ok so you are over reacting"

I fully agree... what a flawed logic... really fucked up.

[Brazil]

AP reinstated for week 3 vs the Saints.

:lol So much for the thought that he was done this season.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11531210/minnesota-vikings-say-adrian-peterson-likely-play-week-3

what gives ?

it's not ok to beat your wife and it's ok to beat your kid ?

[Darth_Pelican]

what gives ?

it's not ok to beat your wife and it's ok to beat your kid ?

Too bad TMZ doesn't have a video to release of the AP child beating. Apparently, they control the suspension times.

[Brazil]

Too bad TMZ doesn't have a video to release of the AP child beating. Apparently, they control the suspension times.

a child beating is worst than a woman beating in my books...

[leemajors]

a child beating is worst than a woman beating in my books...

especially a monster of a man beating a kid.

[Brazil]

especially a monster of a man beating a kid.

sick people tbh

dude will serve us: "I was beaten when I was a child as an excuse..." they should take him and hang him on a tree

[Trainwreck2100]

a child beating is worst than a woman beating in my books...

Disciplining your child is an American pastime going away from it is what helped Turn us into a nation of pussies

[SupremeGuy]

I just don't understand poor logic. The "I was hit worse than that" logic doesn't stand up under any scrutinty and it's caveman thinking. Just because something was more socially acceptable in a less advanced time, does not mean it is ok now. Could you imagine applying that same logic to anything else?

"Sir, you stand accused of molesting that child and you admit to it."

"Well, yes, but I was molested as a child and turned out ok so you are over reacting":lol

[Brazil]

Disciplining your child is an American pastime going away from it is what helped Turn us into a nation of pussies

there is a big difference between disciplining and beating down... I'm sorry... you can discipline a child without slapping him or using a fucking belt

using force against a child is not discipline it's being a coward and a weak fucker

[AlexJones]

a child beating is worst than a woman beating in my books...

Pretty much this... bitches will do things that deserve a beating sometimes but what the fuck can a 4 year old do to deserve that?

[Brazil]

Pretty much this... bitches will do things that deserve a beating sometimes but what the fuck can a 4 year old do to deserve that?

and a fucking bitch can take actions to avoid it happens again: leaving, call the police whatever... what a 4 y/o can do ?

[Brazil]

and a fucking bitch can take actions to avoid it happens again: leaving, call the police whatever... what a 4 y/o can do ?

oh and a mom who let that happens to her child more than once is even worst

[Trill Clinton]

i can't say that i'm surprised this happened. i understand whooping your kids but leaving marks on a 4 year old is a no-no. but if anyone can bounce back from this, its AP. thank GOD the injuriers weren't in vital areas...he made sure to focus on the legs. his family is in my prayers.

[Brazil]

i can't say that i'm surprised this happened. i understand whooping your kids but leaving marks on a 4 year old is a no-no. but if anyone can bounce back from this, its AP. thank GOD the injuriers weren't in vital areas...he made sure to focus on the legs. his family is in my prayers.

Amen

[spurraider21]

i can't say that i'm surprised this happened. i understand whooping your kids but leaving marks on a 4 year old is a no-no. but if anyone can bounce back from this, its AP. thank GOD the injuriers weren't in vital areas...he made sure to focus on the legs. his family is in my prayers.
He's a demonic thug. Would you agree?

[Trill Clinton]

He's a demonic thug. Would you agree?

nah. it would have been demonic if he would have killed him.

[Clipper Nation]

Disciplining your child is an American pastime going away from it is what helped Turn us into a nation of pussies
Disciplining =/= brutally beating a 4-year-old with a stick and bragging about it

Read his texts and you'll see that it wasn't about "discipline" with him....

[spurraider21]

nah. it would have been demonic if he would have killed him.
you called the biebs demonic for making a racist joke... so i guess on your ethics scale that joke is worse than abusing a child

[Holden_Caulfield]

hes playing week 3, the fuck?

[peacemaker885]

Its a vicious cycle until you stop it. He says he was raised that way so he does it to his kid. Terrible.

[Brazil]

Its a vicious cycle until you stop it. He says he was raised that way so he does it to his kid. Terrible.

I was sure some of that would appear...it's always the case. Fuck this excuse, he is a grown man that should be able to think by himself and not simply reproduce behavior from his parents.

He can go burn in hell tbh

oh and :lol nfl hypocrisy... no tape...no sanction

[leemajors]

He added that Peterson put leaves in his mouth when he was being hit with the switch while his pants were down. The child told his mother that Peterson “likes belts and switches” and “has a whooping room.”

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/exclusive-details-on-adrian-peterson-indictment-charges/

Obviously didn't mean to hurt him

[Malik Hairston]

Yessss, my fantasy team has some breathing room now, tbh..

On this topic, my dad beat me as a kid, but he used open hand and his belt, he never even punched me, let alone tortured me like Peterson seems to have done..

I don't have a problem with physically disciplining your kids, but there's a huge difference between slapping your kid around(although 4 years old is too young) and essentially torturing a kid..

[KoolAid Mans Brother]

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/exclusive-details-on-adrian-peterson-indictment-charges/

Obviously didn't mean to hurt him

Don't worry, when the kid grows up all violent, into gangs, and fucked up, AP can just blame it on movies and video games. Clearly they are the reason that nigs shoot each other on every street corner all the time. I has nothing to do with their parenting.

[moisaenz]

Peterson might have crossed the line he might needs some disciplining himself but this just matters cause he is famous.

[Brazil]

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/12/exclusive-details-on-adrian-peterson-indictment-charges/

Obviously didn't mean to hurt him

RELATED: Barkley: ‘Every Black Parent In The South’ Whips Their Kids (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/15/barkley-every-black-parent-in-the-south-whips-their-kids/)

wtf ? it's 2014

Is that a form of perpetuating the whiping slaves tradition ?

So basically it is whites whiped us so us blacks we whip our kids.... people are fucking nuts

[Stevie Johnson]

RELATED: Barkley: ‘Every Black Parent In The South’ Whips Their Kids (http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/09/15/barkley-every-black-parent-in-the-south-whips-their-kids/)

wtf ? it's 2014

Is that a form of perpetuating the whiping slaves tradition ?

So basically it is whites whiped us so us blacks we whip our kids.... people are fucking nuts
Dear god, shut the fuck up you soft fatass faggot foreigner.

[Malik Hairston]

It's funny that this story has played out the same way that it always does with athletes, tbh..

At the end of the day, regardless of your actions, the only thing that matters is your current ability as a player(excluding situations like Aaron Hernandez, since he isn't permitted to play, obviously)..

Players like Ray Rice and Incognito are blackballed from the league because they're currently shitty players that fucked up, it certainly wouldn't be the case if they were still quality players..

Adrian Peterson, Rothlisberger, Ray Lewis, Vick are just a few names on a massive list of players with football immunity:lol..

[Malik Hairston]

The White man doesn't give a fuck about Janay Rice or Peterson's gimpy kid, they only care about niggas helping them win games:lol..rightfully so, too, it's all about the product, but it's funny how the media/talking heads cover this shit..

[Brazil]

Dear god, shut the fuck up you soft fatass faggot foreigner.

:lol what's yours ? A white trash faking being black proud of beating down your child cauz you know that's what black do ?

[manufan10]

Uh oh, you may wanna pump the brakes on your fantasy team Malik Hairston

511644523861004288

[spurraider21]

The White man doesn't give a fuck about Janay Rice or Peterson's gimpy kid, they only care about niggas helping them win games:lol..rightfully so, too, it's all about the product, but it's funny how the media/talking heads cover this shit..
:cry

[DJR210]

there is a big difference between disciplining and beating down... I'm sorry... you can discipline a child without slapping him or using a fucking belt

using force against a child is not discipline it's being a coward and a weak fucker

This.

[Chinook]

there is a big difference between disciplining and beating down... I'm sorry... you can discipline a child without slapping him or using a fucking belt

using force against a child is not discipline it's being a coward and a weak fucker

Of course you can. But pain is still a very effective vector to direct behavior. I would argue that it's the most effective way in today's society where you really can't unplug people from the Internet anymore.

I don't think the second statement makes sense at all. Using force isn't about asserting power. It's about establishing conditioning. A (good) parent doesn't hit their kids because they run out of other ideas. They do so because it gets through to people much more reliably.

[Brazil]

Of course you can. But pain is still a very effective vector to direct behavior. I would argue that it's the most effective way in today's society where you really can't unplug people from the Internet anymore.

I don't think the second statement makes sense at all. Using force isn't about asserting power. It's about establishing conditioning. A (good) parent doesn't hit their kids because they run out of other ideas. They do so because it gets through to people much more reliably.

I totally disagree with that

the only thing you teach to a kid when u use force is when you run out of ideas use force. People use force because they lose control not because it is more reliable. I already used moderate force and it was always because I lost control and I immediately regretted it. It is efficient on a bad way not because of the pain but because it's an humiliation for the kid.

[djohn2oo8]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11534340/adrian-peterson-minnesota-vikings-facing-second-child-abuse-accusation

Peterson facing a second accusation from a different Houston baby mama

[Clipper Nation]

Mother: "What happened to his head?"
Peterson: "Hit his head on the Carseat."
Mother: "How does that happen, he got a whoopin in the car."
Peterson: "Yep."
Mother: "Why?"
Peterson: "I felt so bad. But he did it his self."
Blaming the victims... this guy is scum, tbh....

[SupremeGuy]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11534340/adrian-peterson-minnesota-vikings-facing-second-child-abuse-accusation

Peterson facing a second accusation from a different Houston baby mamaFrost kings be jealous of this proud, successful black man. They always be tryin' to hold the proud black man down and make the beautiful black culture look bad, tbh. If the black community want to beat their bitches and little thugs around, who are white people to tell them not to? Them's the racists! Hands up, don't shoot! Trayvon Martin! Obama!

[djohn2oo8]

511644523861004288

[Fabbs]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11534340/adrian-peterson-minnesota-vikings-facing-second-child-abuse-accusation

Peterson facing a second accusation from a different Houston baby mama
:lol
Not saying she will or should, but can you imagine the money payoff she could demand from Peterson and his pussy lawyer to not file charges?

Peterson sure show's the 4 year olds who is boss. :rolleyes

[TE]

lol at some of the takes in this thread. Kids nowadays have evolved just like society has. Disciplining a kid nowadays is also different. Like Chinook said, appropriate corporal punishment still goes a long ways despite changes in society. I wouldn't necessarily get beat but I was spanked with a belt when I deserved it and it worked. I plan on doing the same to my kids when the times call for it.

[jimbo]

there is a big difference between disciplining and beating down... I'm sorry... you can discipline a child without slapping him or using a fucking belt

using force against a child is not discipline it's being a coward and a weak fucker

Lmao at some Frenchie trying to call a true American alpha male a coward tbh...

http://www.sixpacknow.com/images5/adrian_peterson_shirtless.jpg

You wanna hear cowardly...?

You're in a club and this guy slaps your girlfriend's ass - what do you do?

[jimbo]

and more importantly, I'm surprised a Texas grand jury even indicted Peterson on child abuse charges...you'd think Texas would be more conservative than that.

I don't know the other areas Montgomery county encompasses, but if the jury was filled with rich white people from the Woodlands it's no surprise that shit happened then though. A judge won't get him on child abuse imo

[djohn2oo8]

and more importantly, I'm surprised a Texas grand jury even indicted Peterson on child abuse charges...you'd think Texas would be more conservative than that.

I don't know the other areas Montgomery county encompasses, but if the jury was filled with rich white people from the Woodlands it's no surprise that shit happened then though. A judge won't get him on child abuse imo

To be honest Houston cops have had it out for Peterson long before this. It doesn't help he beats his kids.

[jimbo]

Why?

[djohn2oo8]

Why?

Rich black athlete from Texas, that's their MO around here. One night he was arrested at this club downtown by this undercover cop who said Peterson pushed him after he told him he was a cop. Charged him with resisting arrest. Three cops took him down. There was a video out that didn't show any pushing.

[Blake]

AP reinstated for week 3 vs the Saints.

:lol So much for the thought that he was done this season.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11531210/minnesota-vikings-say-adrian-peterson-likely-play-week-3

Why isn't Goodell stepping in and suspending him

[Darth_Pelican]

Why isn't Goodell stepping in and suspending him

Because he drafted him in the first round of his fantasy team.

[leemajors]

Radisson suspended their Vikes sponsorship:

http://deadspin.com/radisson-hotels-suspends-vikings-sponsorship-1635155439

[HI-FI]

repeat Father of the Year winner?

Because he drafted him in the first round of his fantasy team.

:lol

[Chinook]

I totally disagree with that

the only thing you teach to a kid when u use force is when you run out of ideas use force. People use force because they lose control not because it is more reliable. I already used moderate force and it was always because I lost control and I immediately regretted it. It is efficient on a bad way not because of the pain but because it's an humiliation for the kid.

I think you're completely mischaracterizing corporal punishment. It's not a last resort. It's not like a parent tries yelling at a kid, then grounding him, then sending him to bed without supper, then finally slapping him out of frustration. Corporal punishment is most effective when implemented immediately, since it creates a stronger association between the pain and the unwanted behavior. If you delay hitting a kid, you risk them repeating the behavior much more readily. Also, when you start hitting a kid out of frustration, you've completely lost control of the situation as a parent. That's not the case at all when you do it immediately.

As I said higher up, my parents hit me so that they could threaten to hit me later. They made a couple dozen spanking last years. They never hit me after the age of 10 or so, because by then I was rational enough for them to talk to me. But when I was younger and lacked higher-level reasoning, hitting me was a great tool. It's much easier for a kid to understand that doing something bad will result in them getting hurt than it is for them to understand the complicated social mechanisms which their behavior can cause.

Now obviously some parents go too far and beat the crap out of their kids. Some punish kids who haven't done anything wrong. Some get a sick enjoyment out of hurting their kids. Irresponsible people mess up a lot of things. But it's not like this new generation in which corporal punishment is shunned is any better. Kids are still being incorrectly punished and growing up to be pieces of crap. I'd be very interested in a study that explored whether responsible use of corporal punishment really has a negative impact on children (controlling for socioeconomic factors, of course).

[Brazil]

Lmao at some Frenchie trying to call a true American alpha male a coward tbh...

http://www.sixpacknow.com/images5/adrian_peterson_shirtless.jpg

You wanna hear cowardly...?

You're in a club and this guy slaps your girlfriend's ass - what do you do?

:lol faggot jimbo looking for black male pics on the internet to make a point
:lol beating down a kid is being an alpha male
:lol you're in the club
:lol us proud americans whip kids
:lol coward

[Raven]

Of course you can. But pain is still a very effective vector to direct behavior. I would argue that it's the most effective way in today's society where you really can't unplug people from the Internet anymore.

I don't think the second statement makes sense at all. Using force isn't about asserting power. It's about establishing conditioning. A (good) parent doesn't hit their kids because they run out of other ideas. They do so because it gets through to people much more reliably.

i do not agree.

[Brazil]

I think you're completely mischaracterizing corporal punishment. It's not a last resort. It's not like a parent tries yelling at a kid, then grounding him, then sending him to bed without supper, then finally slapping him out of frustration. Corporal punishment is most effective when implemented immediately, since it creates a stronger association between the pain and the unwanted behavior. If you delay hitting a kid, you risk them repeating the behavior much more readily. Also, when you start hitting a kid out of frustration, you've completely lost control of the situation as a parent. That's not the case at all when you do it immediately.

As I said higher up, my parents hit me so that they could threaten to hit me later. They made a couple dozen spanking last years. They never hit me after the age of 10 or so, because by then I was rational enough for them to talk to me. But when I was younger and lacked higher-level reasoning, hitting me was a great tool. It's much easier for a kid to understand that doing something bad will result in them getting hurt than it is for them to understand the complicated social mechanisms which their behavior can cause.

Now obviously some parents go too far and beat the crap out of their kids. Some punish kids who haven't done anything wrong. Some get a sick enjoyment out of hurting their kids. Irresponsible people mess up a lot of things. But it's not like this new generation in which corporal punishment is shunned is any better. Kids are still being incorrectly punished and growing up to be pieces of crap. I'd be very interested in a study that explored whether responsible use of corporal punishment really has a negative impact on children (controlling for socioeconomic factors, of course).

You know I respect your posting chinook so I will respect your opinion on that topic. I believe you are not the kind of guy to cross the line with a kid so it's all good.

Saying that, I cannot disagree more with you on all you are writing. Pain does not teach you anything other than fear even if in the case you mention parent is in control and does not use use force at last resort.

[Brazil]

When my dad would use force on me, I have 0 souvenir of the pain. The pain was never an issue especially because he uses rightly so moderate force what I remember is the humiliation. Pain is not the mechanism working on a child, humiliation is... that's what stays.

[Cry Havoc]

Of course you can. But pain is still a very effective vector to direct behavior.

He said, completely ignorant of every single study on child abuse that's ever been conducted.


I would argue that it's the most effective way in today's society where you really can't unplug people from the Internet anymore.

Ah! Bonus points for the "kids today jes' dun have no respect for their elders!" comment that's been recited by every single generation in the history of forever.

[Clipper Nation]

Lmao at some Frenchie trying to call a true American alpha male a coward tbh...

http://www.sixpacknow.com/images5/adrian_peterson_shirtless.jpg

You wanna hear cowardly...?

You're in a club and this guy slaps your girlfriend's ass - what do you do?
Nothing says "alpha male" quite like beating up a 4-year-old who has no means to defend himself or flee the situation....

[Fabbs]

Nothing says "alpha male" quite like beating up a 4-year-old who has no means to defend himself or flee the situation....
open wounds were found on the kids scrotum.

I would think even most of the pro switch crowd would agree that is going way overboard. Abuse.

Far from being alpha it screams "I am super insecure and need to take out my insecurities abusively on a 4 year old."

[JoeTait75]

open wounds were found on the kids scrotum.

I would think even most of the pro switch crowd would agree that is going way overboard. Abuse.

Far from being alpha it screams "I am super insecure and need to take out my insecurities abusively on a 4 year old."

I think a person can agree that AP took his discipline too far and that he's probably a lousy father but still not think he should be prosecuted for it.

[Blake]

I think a person can agree that AP took his discipline too far and that he's probably a lousy father but still not think he should be prosecuted for it.

Seriously?

The kid is cut up. I can't believe AP is actually playing on Sunday.

It's 2014 and our society is still fucked up.

[Blake]

:cry spare the rod spoil the child :cry

[Cry Havoc]

Seriously?

The kid is cut up. I can't believe AP is actually playing on Sunday.

It's 2014 and our society is still fucked up.

[Chinook]

i do not agree.

Um. All right? There's not much I can do to respond if you don't actually say what you disagree with or why.

[Chinook]

You know I respect your posting chinook so I will respect your opinion on that topic. I believe you are not the kind of guy to cross the line with a kid so it's all good.

Saying that, I cannot disagree more with you on all you are writing. Pain does not teach you anything other than fear even if in the case you mention parent is in control and does not use use force at last resort.

I'm glad we can have a debate where we disagree this strongly while still being able to respect each other. :toast

That said, are you really going to tell me that pain only instills fear? Are you not aware of any conditioning trials? If you put your hand on a hot stove, and it burns you, is the only thing you learn is that the stove is something to be scared of?

[Chinook]

He said, completely ignorant of every single study on child abuse that's ever been conducted.



Ah! Bonus points for the "kids today jes' dun have no respect for their elders!" comment that's been recited by every single generation in the history of forever.

Yeah, I'm glad you tried to score some points in your score book. But there's nothing nifty about your post. What I get is that you are trying to equate all corporal punishment to child abuse and using that strawman to try to attack the actual point. That's like saying that because kids who are locked in a room all their lives suffer negative effects, grounding them is child abuse.

Your second point is a complete misinterpretation of what I said. I am saying that it's hard to truly ground kids or restrict their activities now because so much interaction is based on the Web, and kids need it to do almost anything constructive nowadays. It's practically grounding a kid to a room with his friends. That's a far cry from saying kids don't respect their elders.

[leemajors]

pretty good read on Deadspin:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/why-do-people-hit-their-kids-1634802919/+robharvilla


There's an old episode of What's Happening!! where Roger fucks up, and his mom decides to beat his ass (this is actually the plot of every episode of What's Happening!!). So his mom asks Rerun for his belt, only Rerun is 300-plus pounds, so when he takes out his belt, it's like eight feet long. And Roger's mom guffaws and cries out, "Oh, Rerun! I wanna whip him, not hang him!" And the whole studio audience goes crazy with laughter.

It's a weird thing, to wanna beat your kid. Kids are small and helpless, and are your own flesh and blood. You'd think the LAST person on earth to hit a child would be that child's own parent, and yet here we are. Beating kids is so common that it's practically a comedic mainstay at this point, from Eddie Murphy's mom throwing a shoe at him to Bill Cosby talking about his dad's fearsome belt. There was a recent episode of Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown set in L.A.'s Koreatown, and all these Korean chefs were laughing about how their parents used to punish them by putting them in stress positions for hours on end: standing and holding books until their arms gave out, etc. Torture, essentially. The chefs were all giggling at the memories, like veterans telling war stories. The beatings were a shared heritage among them.

There is an imaginary line between corporal punishment and abuse, and the story of Adrian Peterson beating the shit out of his kid with a tree branch demonstrates the insane variance in where Americans see that line. Some people applauded Peterson for this …


… while others, of course, think he belongs in a jail cell. Peterson said his dad used to beat him with an electrical cord, so he considered his own parenting methods to be HUMANE by comparison, which is insane. But that's what happens in a culture of beating. Beating is a tradition that parents hand down to children, who then hand it down (with great force) to their own children, until an entire family tree of abuse has sprung forth. Given the way abuse can spread, it's a wonder any child makes it out of childhood unscathed. And since it's so common, people will twist their minds around pretty much any excuse to justify this cycle. My parents beat me, and I turned out fine!, etc. The idea of abuse gets buried under comedic euphemisms like "whoopin'." HAHA HIS DAD GAVE HIM A WHOOPIN'. Hilarious.

Now, this is the part where I point out that study after study after study has proven that corporal punishment—even a light spanking—does not work. At all. Corporal punishment makes kids sullen, violent, and angry. I know this because I have dabbled in corporal punishment with my own children, particularly my oldest kid. (Poor first children are always the beta kids: the kids parents fuck up with the most before applying better techniques to their younger siblings.) I have tried spanking the kid, and giving the kid a light smack on the head, and threatening the kid. My dad spanked me once or twice as a child. That's it. I don't even remember it, really. And yet I've probably tried more ways of physically correcting my child than he ever did. And the reason I tried all of these methods is because I am a failure.


That's what corporal punishment is. It's a failure. It's a complete breakdown of communication between parent and child. Children are unpredictable, reckless, and occasionally violent. They can drive otherwise rational humans into fits of rage. And I have had moments—many moments, certainly—where I have felt that rage after exhausting every last possible idea to get them to behave: bribery, timeouts, the silent treatment, walking away (they follow you!), distraction, throwing the kids outside (they end up ringing the doorbell a lot), you name it. So I have tried corporal punishment as a final resort, a desperate last stab at closure. That's an easy way for parents to justify it: You forced me to do this, child. Spanking the kid did nothing for me. It only made me realize what a fucking failure I was. Oh, and the kid still kept yelling.

Spanking and beating your kid teaches your kid to talk with violence. It validates hitting as a legitimate form of communication. Everything is modeled. I have yelled at my kids, and then seen them yell. I have smacked my kid, and then watched her smack someone else. They don't learn to be good from any of it. They don't learn to sit still and practice piano sonatas. All they learn is, Hey, this works! And then they go practice what you just preached. Beating a kid creates an atmosphere of toxicity in a house that lingers forever: One beating leads to the next, and to the next, and to the next, until parents don't even know why they're beating the kid anymore. They just do. Once it is normalized, it takes root. Parents begin to like the habit. Those pictures of Peterson's kid? The violence can get worse... much worse... so much worse it's astonishing.

It takes an endless amount of patience to handle a demanding child, and lots of people don't have that patience. We also happen to live in an age of instant gratification, so the idea of spending 10 full minutes getting a child to calm down is agony. People are hurried, stressed, and selfish. If they try beating a kid and it "works," they'll go right to that well the second the kid acts up. Beating a kid is fast and easy, which is what makes it so terrifying. And no parent ever thinks of him- or herself as a child abuser, no matter how bad the abuse gets. There's also a strange political bent to all this... a "Don't tell me how to raise my kids!" attitude, where people demand the freedom to punish their kids however they like, but their kids are not allowed any freedom FROM that discipline.

You need tolerance, intelligence, and love to make it work. Sometimes, I am able to pull this off. Sometimes, I talk the kid down, and then I go to my wife and I'm like DUDE THEY CALMED DOWN AND I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO YELL GIMME A COOKIE. And sometimes, I fail miserably and start yelling like a crazy person, only to realize what a shitty job I'm doing. I am getting better (I haven't tried spanking a kid in years), but I still have a lot of work to do. I cannot yell. I cannot hit. No parent ever should. No parent or child will ever get anything productive from it. You are not a hippy-dippy asshole when you avoid spanking. That's a cultural stigma that only justifies further abuse, and it's a cheap way of getting out of the legwork necessary to be a better parent: reading books, going to parenting classes, etc. People think they've tried everything when they really haven't.

If it takes sending Adrian Peterson to jail to explain "don't hit your kids" concept to all the junior Bob Knights out there, so be it. Go ahead and look and those pictures again and tell me what good will come from it. Because I don't see it. I don't see how 10 lashings do the trick instead of just one. I don't see how that lesson won't be taught to that child again and again and again, until it isn't a lesson at all. And I don't see how Peterson's grandkids avoid a similar fate.

[Blake]

If you put your hand on a hot stove, and it burns you, is the only thing you learn is that the stove is something to be scared of?

If you never use the stove again, that's a definite possibility.

[Chinook]

If you never use the stove again, that's a definite possibility.

Or if it burns you again and again when you touch it. But if you ever learn to cook even the simplest things, then you'll learn when it's okay to touch it and when it's not.

If a parent only hits their kid without balancing that out with affection, then the kid would indeed start to form a strong negative association with the parent. But that's true for any type of discipline.

[Blake]

pretty good read on Deadspin:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/why-do-people-hit-their-kids-1634802919/+robharvilla

Good read

[Blake]

If a parent only hits their kid without balancing that out with affection, then the kid would indeed start to form a strong negative association with the parent. But that's true for any type of discipline.

Is this anecdote or fact?

what balance are you referring to? Does that mean if you spank for an hour that you need to shower them with affection for an hour?

If you accidentally go too far and cut a scrotum, does that mean a few extra hugs balances it out? Maybe a new PS4 game?

[Brazil]

I'm glad we can have a debate where we disagree this strongly while still being able to respect each other. :toast

That said, are you really going to tell me that pain only instills fear? Are you not aware of any conditioning trials? If you put your hand on a hot stove, and it burns you, is the only thing you learn is that the stove is something to be scared of?

I'm glad too

Pain is a defensive mechanism indeed. When you put your hand on a hot stove your boddy is telling you is not good for him, that's one thing we can agree on.

Saying that, conditioning works obviously better with reward than punishment. You train a dog with positive reinforcement not by beating him down. Again, I'm not offended by people using reasonable force with their child, I just believe (like most pedatritians, psy...) this is not the best way to teach a kid. Besides, even though there are people with a brain that can do it without fucking it up, I also think there are a bunch of other people who are uncapable to use "just" moderate force and will cross the line. Therefore I prefer reading opinions saying you don't use force on a child ever than it's ok to use a freaking belt moderatly and I'm sure you understand what I mean.

[Chinook]

Is this anecdote or fact?

what balance are you referring to? Does that mean if you spank for an hour that you need to shower them with affection for an hour?

If you accidentally go too far and cut a scrotum, does that mean a few extra hugs balances it out? Maybe a new PS4 game?

Well, I certainly don't mean the shower part. I'm also on record here as saying that what Peterson did was abusive, mainly due to the degree to which he hit is kid but also due to the way he seemed to enjoy it.

There are things that we can all agree that a good parent should do for their kids, like playing with them, helping them with their homework, teaching them how to ride a bicycle, etc. Those are things that build positive associations. Discipline creates negative associations, but if the overall is positive enough, then the parent should still have a good reputation with the kid. There are plenty of studies and experiments on conditioning and reputation, but the only ones I'm familiar with involve animals, since that's what I studied in school. So I'd say it's closer to fact than speculation, but there's obviously a ton of variance.

[Robz4000]

SpursTalk: Parenting 101

[Chinook]

I'm glad too

Pain is a defensive mechanism indeed. When you put your hand on a hot stove your boddy is telling you is not good for him, that's one thing we can agree on.

Saying that, conditioning works obviously better with reward than punishment. You train a dog with positive reinforcement not by beating him down. Again, I'm not offended by people using reasonable force with their child, I just believe (like most pedatritians, psy...) this is not the best way to teach a kid. Besides, even though there are people with a brain that can do it without fucking it up, I also think there are a bunch of other people who are uncapable to use "just" moderate force and will cross the line. Therefore I prefer reading opinions saying you don't use force on a child ever than it's ok to use a freaking belt moderatly and I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Well, I don't think we disagree much on these points. I do think there are way too many parents who hit their kids while they are not in the proper mindset to do so. Peterson certainly doesn't seem to have been. So it's possible that we have to phase out corporal punishment to limit child abuse. But I think is a sticky issue, like reinstating prohibition to cut down on DWIs.

I do have a slight disagreement on the dog point, though. Positive reinforcement is a great way to get a dog to learn to do things (like tricks), but it's not really a good way to prevent a dog from doing things (like peeing on the carpet). Most people agree that you have to punish the dog in some way (even by firmly saying "No.").

[Chinook]

SpursTalk: Parenting 101

They say it takes a village to raise a child.

[Robz4000]

They say it takes a village to raise a child.

Idk, this place can be one dark village.

[jimbo]

:lol faggot jimbo looking for black male pics on the internet to make a point
:lol beating down a kid is being an alpha male
:lol you're in the club
:lol us proud americans whip kids
:lol coward

So you'd give AP some emoticons? You just lost your girl, and there was nothing you could do about it.

The way I see it is that you're closer to the 4 year old in terms of physical strength than Peterson is to you. If he beat you up would that be cowardice too?


Nothing says "alpha male" quite like beating up a 4-year-old who has no means to defend himself or flee the situation....

It takes true manliness to stand up in the face of an oppressive government/butthurt social media and not give a fuck.



open wounds were found on the kids scrotum.

I would think even most of the pro switch crowd would agree that is going way overboard. Abuse.

Far from being alpha it screams "I am super insecure and need to take out my insecurities abusively on a 4 year old."

Have you ever gotten hit with a switch before? Like do you know the anatomy of a tree branch?

https://img1.etsystatic.com/010/0/6764584/il_570xN.425180131_d6zs.jpg

It's not as easy to control as a belt. If you're hitting someone's ass or legs you could accidentally be whipping their balls. Doesn't mean Peterson wanted to do it.

[Brazil]

I do have a slight disagreement on the dog point, though. Positive reinforcement is a great way to get a dog to learn to do things (like tricks), but it's not really a good way to prevent a dog from doing things (like peeing on the carpet). Most people agree that you have to punish the dog in some way (even by firmly saying "No.").

We agree dogs need boundaries so you have to say NO firmly on stuff he is doing, best way to reinforce a good behavior is to reward the dog when he actually obeys. Dog trainers don't don't punish a dog using force.

[JoeTait75]

Seriously?

The kid is cut up. I can't believe AP is actually playing on Sunday.

It's 2014 and our society is still fucked up.

I'm just really leery of giving the state a lot of leeway to intervene in family affairs, especially given the shifting definition of "child abuse." I mean, 30 years ago what AP did probably wouldn't have been considered abusive. But 30 years from now the state might be indicting parents for yelling at their kids in public.

[Chinook]

We agree dogs need boundaries so you have to say NO firmly on stuff he is doing, best way to reinforce a good behavior is to reward the dog when he actually obeys. Dog trainers don't don't punish a dog using force.

Dog trainers usually don't own the dogs they train, so it's probably not a good idea for them to hit the dogs anyway. That's a big reason why schools in the US aren't really allowed to hit their students anymore. There are still plenty of training devices that do instill pain, like dog whistles and invisible fences.

[Thread]

As a 9th grader ('68) I received 29 swats over the course of the school year. These were hard hits from a wooden paddle. The teacher would just simply take you out of class, bring another teacher to bear witness, bend you over and apply twixt 2 & 4 hits per occasion. My ass wasn't black & blue afterward, just black. Had no affect on Cubby. I still grew up to be a pain in the ass.

tee, hee.

[Fabbs]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/Ralph_Wiggum.png
Have you ever gotten hit with a switch before? Like do you know the anatomy of a tree branch?

It's not as easy to control as a belt. If you're hitting someone's ass or legs you could accidentally be whipping their balls. Doesn't mean Peterson wanted to do it.
So maybe Peterson shouldn't practice on a 4 year old.

[Fabbs]

I'm just really leery of giving the state a lot of leeway to intervene in family affairs, especially given the shifting definition of "child abuse." I mean, 30 years ago what AP did probably wouldn't have been considered abusive. But 30 years from now the state might be indicting parents for yelling at their kids in public.
:lol In what era is cuts to the scrotum going to be okay with you?

[JoeTait75]

:lol In what era is cuts to the scrotum going to be okay with you?

Again, there is a difference between being "okay" with what AP did and wanting him arrested and possibly jailed for it. Look, I have a kid, and AP's way of discipline sure as hell isn't my way. But that doesn't mean I want the state stepping in every time a parent deals with his kids in a way that I don't necessarily approve of.

[Brazil]

So you'd give AP some emoticons? You just lost your girl, and there was nothing you could do about it.

The way I see it is that you're closer to the 4 year old in terms of physical strength than Peterson is to you. If he beat you up would that be cowardice too?



It takes true manliness to stand up in the face of an oppressive government/butthurt social media and not give a fuck.




Have you ever gotten hit with a switch before? Like do you know the anatomy of a tree branch?

https://img1.etsystatic.com/010/0/6764584/il_570xN.425180131_d6zs.jpg

It's not as easy to control as a belt. If you're hitting someone's ass or legs you could accidentally be whipping their balls. Doesn't mean Peterson wanted to do it.


it must take a lot of courage to stand up against in the face of an oppressive government/butthurt social media and not give a fuck. :lmao really dude ?

you did not find another pic of a naked black to scare the shit out of me tbh ?

:lol faggot

[AlexJones]

As a 9th grader ('68) I received 29 swats over the course of the school year. These were hard hits from a wooden paddle. The teacher would just simply take you out of class, bring another teacher to bear witness, bend you over and apply twixt 2 & 4 hits per occasion. My ass wasn't black & blue afterward, just black. Had no affect on Cubby. I still grew up to be a pain in the ass.

tee, hee.

What does it feel like to know that you're on your last legs and likely to die at any moment?

[Fabbs]

Again, there is a difference between being "okay" with what AP did and wanting him arrested and possibly jailed for it. Look, I have a kid, and AP's way of discipline sure as hell isn't my way. But that doesn't mean I want the state stepping in every time a parent deals with his kids in a way that I don't necessarily approve of.
I'd rather see him be willing to be educated on a proper form of spanking too.

However for the protection of children there needs to be laws and enforcement on the books for baboons who think overdoing it is okay.

[Brazil]

But that doesn't mean I want the state stepping in every time a parent deals with his kids in a way that I don't necessarily approve of.

wtf are you talking about ? if the state don't protect childs from abusive parents who is gonna do it ?

[Brazil]

What does it feel like to know that you're on your last legs and likely to die at any moment?

:lol

[Cry Havoc]

Most people agree that you have to punish the dog in some way (even by firmly saying "No.").

Strawman. Not a single person in this thread has advocated for a lack of discipline in parenting. Reinforcement, both positive and negative, are great ways to instill good character traits and modify troubling behavior.

Physical punishment teaches one thing: Fear. That's it. And when fear is engaged, EVERYTHING else in the brain shuts off. It becomes fight or flight.


If you put your hand on a hot stove, and it burns you, is the only thing you learn is that the stove is something to be scared of?

This is a PERFECT example of the effect fear has. Do you think that kid is going to learn to cook the day or week after he burns his hand on the stove? Of course not. He likely won't even go near the thing because it hurt him. What positives result from him burning his hand? He won't do the same thing again (out of fear) but he also won't do anything productive with that knowledge. And even a 4 year old can differentiate between a stove (i.e., an object with no will of its own) and a parent who absolutely makes choices of their own accord. When you choose to hit a kid, he knows you're not just a stove burning him because it's hot. He knows you're burning him because you're hot -- and because you didn't take the time to make any other choice in the matter but to beat the bad behavior out of him.

Children that are very rarely spanked as kids don't learn the lesson from the spanking nearly as much as the very serious talk they undoubtedly have with their parents afterward about the ramifications of behavior.

[leemajors]

wtf are you talking about ? if the state don't protect childs from abusive parents who is gonna do it ?

I think his point is that it can be slippery slope when you start to get the state overly involved, which I agree with.

[Chinook]

Strawman. Not a single person in this thread has advocated for a lack of discipline in parenting. Reinforcement, both positive and negative, are great ways to instill good character traits and modify troubling behavior.

Physical punishment teaches one thing: Fear. That's it. And when fear is engaged, EVERYTHING else in the brain shuts off. It becomes fight or flight.

Psychobabble. I was responding to Brazil's point about dogs learning from positive reinforcement. They do learn to have good behavior from that, but bad behavior is curbed through punishment. It's clear from your post that you don't understand reinforcement/punishment. Negative reinforcement (taking away something a kid/animal doesn't like) doesn't discourage poor behavior any more than positive reinforcement does. You're thinking of negative punishment (which is taking away something that a kid/animal likes).


This is a PERFECT example of the effect fear has. Do you think that kid is going to learn to cook the day or week after he burns his hand on the stove? Of course not. He likely won't even go near the thing because it hurt him. What positives result from him burning his hand? He won't do the same thing again (out of fear) but he also won't do anything productive with that knowledge. And even a 4 year old can differentiate between a stove (i.e., an object with no will of its own) and a parent who absolutely makes choices of their own accord. When you choose to hit a kid, he knows you're not just a stove burning him because it's hot. He knows you're burning him because you're hot -- and because you didn't take the time to make any other choice in the matter but to beat the bad behavior out of him.

Lol. Kids don't cower in the corner just because they feel pain. Sure, a bad burn will affect a young kid to a larger extent than a minor burn would affect a teenager. But it's not like the brain just shuts off any time it feels any pain whatsoever. If that happened, then conditioning wouldn't work.

I've already conceded that hitting a kid creates negative associations for the parent. But it also creates negative associations with the behavior. If it didn't, then reinforcement wouldn't work either. Balancing out punishment with positive activities is how a parent maintains a good reputation with their kids. Even if you never hit your kid, if all you do is punish them, they won't like you. But as you can see, many of us who had parents who hit us still have great relationships with them.


Children that are very rarely spanked as kids don't learn the lesson from the spanking nearly as much as the very serious talk they undoubtedly have with their parents afterward about the ramifications of behavior.

I think we all agree that it's important to talk to your kids and explain any punishment you give them. I honestly think the moment a parent loses control is when they start saying things like, "Because I said so." Kids don't learn anything from statements like that. Hitting doesn't teach right from wrong; it creates an aversion to certain things. Parents still have to parent.

[Blake]

Again, there is a difference between being "okay" with what AP did and wanting him arrested and possibly jailed for it. Look, I have a kid, and AP's way of discipline sure as hell isn't my way. But that doesn't mean I want the state stepping in every time a parent deals with his kids in a way that I don't necessarily approve of.

I want the fucker jailed for it.

I can't believe anyone wants society to let him do what he wants to this defenseless kid.

[Cry Havoc]

Psychobabble. I was responding to Brazil's point about dogs learning from positive reinforcement. They do learn to have good behavior from that, but bad behavior is curbed through punishment. It's clear from your post that you don't understand reinforcement/punishment. Negative reinforcement (taking away something a kid/animal doesn't like) doesn't discourage poor behavior any more than positive reinforcement does. You're thinking of negative punishment (which is taking away something that a kid/animal likes).

There's no such thing as "negative punishment". It's just called "punishment". There is no "positive punishment" in Psychology, and guess why that is? Because punishment does not alter behavior in a positive way. This is my field, mind you, so I do know what I'm talking about in this case.


Lol. Kids don't cower in the corner just because they feel pain. Sure, a bad burn will affect a young kid to a larger extent than a minor burn would affect a teenager. But it's not like the brain just shuts off any time it feels any pain whatsoever. If that happened, then conditioning wouldn't work.

Let's be really clear here: We aren't talking about a papercut. We aren't talking about falling and scraping a knee. A hand on a 350 degree oven is instant, overwhelming pain, especially to a 4 year old who hasn't developed the tools to rationalize what's happening. If you don't think a 4 year old goes into instant self-preservation mode the second he feels that heat, I don't know what to say. You're just wrong. When you abuse a child, you (hopefully) aren't burning them, but you're still putting them in that place of fear. Conditioning to that extent works PRECISELY because the subject is AFRAID of what will happen. Not because they're learning the what and why of the situation. It's an off switch. OVEN BAD. Neurotransmitters have already changed.


Babies and children who suffer abuse may also experience trauma that is unrelated to direct physical damage. Exposure to domestic violence, disaster, or other traumatic events can have long-lasting effects. An enormous body of research now exists that provides evidence for the long-term damage of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse on babies and children. We know that children who experience the stress of abuse will focus their brains' resources on survival and responding to threats in their environment. This chronic stimulation of the brain's fear response means that the regions of the brain involved in this response are frequently activated (Perry, 2001a). Other regions of the brain, such as those involved in complex thought and abstract cognition, are less frequently activated, and the child becomes less competent at processing this type of information.

One way that early maltreatment experiences may alter a child's ability to interact positively with others is by altering brain neurochemical balance. Research on children who suffered early emotional abuse or severe deprivation indicates that such maltreatment may permanently alter the brain's ability to use serotonin, which helps produce feelings of well-being and emotional stability.

This research from Healy, 2004.


I've already conceded that hitting a kid creates negative associations for the parent. But it also creates negative associations with the behavior. If it didn't, then reinforcement wouldn't work either. Balancing out punishment with positive activities is how a parent maintains a good reputation with their kids. Even if you never hit your kid, if all you do is punish them, they won't like you. But as you can see, many of us who had parents who hit us still have great relationships with them.

Agree with this. It's obvious that children can still develop good relationships with abusive parents. That is hardly indicative of the ideal circumstance, however, and you cannot say that the child wouldn't have been better adapted at an earlier age without said punishment, because we have volumes of evidence indicating otherwise.


I think we all agree that it's important to talk to your kids and explain any punishment you give them. I honestly think the moment a parent loses control is when they start saying things like, "Because I said so." Kids don't learn anything from statements like that. Hitting doesn't teach right from wrong; it creates an aversion to certain things. Parents still have to parent.

Yes. It creates an aversion through a fear response. It inhibits learning and rational thought development, and cripples the frontal lobe's ability to process high-level information. Spanking a kid once will not destroy their life -- it's just an ineffective, inefficient way of parenting. Even you yourself say it's important to have a discussion afterward. Why is that? If the punishment is fine for learning then you shouldn't need to even speak to them, they should just know! The truth is that it's the discussion afterward that actively fires the neurons in their brain to connect the behavior with the situation.

[Blake]

I think his point is that it can be slippery slope when you start to get the state overly involved, which I agree with.

The state can get involved and press assault charges when an adult punches another adult. I'm ok with it and I'm ok with harsher charges for parents beating on their kids.

[Brazil]

I think his point is that it can be slippery slope when you start to get the state overly involved, which I agree with.

I don't disagree again but there is no way state is not involved.. topic is slippery but saying it's a family business don't look too much into it is not an adequate answer.

So for good or bad, State / Police need to do their job starting by protecting the most needed..children

[Cry Havoc]

And before anyone goes there (because it inevitably is said), yes, I do think it's better parenting to smack a child on the ass occasionally and talk to them about the reasons for it versus not disciplining children at all. Extremes with kids are never good, whether it be too harsh of a discipline or too mild/nonexistent. Kids need boundaries but those can absolutely be taught without raising a hand to them.

[Chinook]

There's no such thing as "negative punishment". It's just called "punishment". There is no "positive punishment" in Psychology, and guess why that is? Because punishment does not alter behavior in a positive way. This is my field, mind you, so I do know what I'm talking about in this case.

So you should go back to school.

http://psychology.about.com/od/operantconditioning/f/negative-punishment.htm


Negative punishment is an important concept in B. F. Skinner's theory ofoperant conditioning (http://psychology.about.com/od/behavioralpsychology/a/introopcond.htm). In behavioral psychology, the goal of punishment (http://psychology.about.com/od/operantconditioning/f/punishment.htm) is to decrease the behavior that precedes it. In the case of negative punishment, it involves taking something good or desirable away in order to reduce the occurrence of a particular behavior.

"Positive" and "negative" do not mean "good" and "bad". They refer to whether something is added or subtracted. Positive reinforcement means giving something good to reinforce behavior. Negative reinforcement is taking away something bad to reinforce behavior. Positive punishment is adding something bad to discourage behavior, and negative punishment is taking away something good to discourage behavior.


Let's be really clear here: We aren't talking about a papercut. We aren't talking about falling and scraping a knee. A hand on a 350 degree oven is instant, overwhelming pain, especially to a 4 year old who hasn't developed the tools to rationalize what's happening. If you don't think a 4 year old goes into instant self-preservation mode the second he feels that heat, I don't know what to say. You're just wrong. When you abuse a child, you (hopefully) aren't burning them, but you're still putting them in that place of fear. Conditioning to that extent works PRECISELY because the subject is AFRAID of what will happen. Not because they're learning the what and why of the situation. It's an off switch. OVEN BAD. Neurotransmitters have already changed.

Psychobabble again. I'm sure you're coming from a good place, and to a large extent, I agree with your intent. But it's just not true that pain doesn't force learning. I mean, what did you do when you were getting your degree if you didn't ;earn about conditioning (the actual math, not the short version we're talking about here)?


This research from Healy, 2004.

Dude, we all agree abuse is bad. That quote says nothing about general corporal punishment. In fact, it implies that all types of abuse are equal.


Agree with this. It's obvious that children can still develop good relationships with abusive parents. That is hardly indicative of the ideal circumstance, however, and you cannot say that the child wouldn't have been better adapted at an earlier age without said punishment, because we have volumes of evidence indicating otherwise.

Still waiting for something against corporal punishment.


Yes. It creates an aversion through a fear response. It inhibits learning and rational thought development, and cripples the frontal lobe's ability to process high-level information. Spanking a kid once will not destroy their life -- it's just an ineffective, inefficient way of parenting. Even you yourself say it's important to have a discussion afterward. Why is that? If the punishment is fine for learning then you shouldn't need to even speak to them, they should just know! The truth is that it's the discussion afterward that actively fires the neurons in their brain to connect the behavior with the situation.

Punishment is necessary for learning in a Pavlovian sense. But you still need to explain things to kids to get them to think rationally on issues, so you don't have to keep punishing them. The discussion by itself won't do anything, especially initially, since there's no reason for a kid to care if nothing bad happens to them. It takes both punishment and reinforcement to curb behavior in the right direction.

[Blake]

The only time i spanked my kid was when she was 2 and it was during a tantrum trying to get her in her car seat. And even then, it was just patting her leg to get her to chill the hell out so I could click the belt.

Parents that have a premeditated notion to get a tree branch and take a kid to a torture room to teach them a lesson should absolutely be thrown in jail.

[Cry Havoc]

So you should go back to school.

http://psychology.about.com/od/operantconditioning/f/negative-punishment.htm

My mistake. We did not use that term at my university. It was "positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment".



"Positive" and "negative" do not mean "good" and "bad". They refer to whether something is added or subtracted. Positive reinforcement means giving something good to reinforce behavior. Negative reinforcement is taking away something bad to reinforce behavior. Positive punishment is adding something bad to discourage behavior, and negative punishment is taking away something good to discourage behavior.

I'm aware of the meanings of positive and negative, thank you.


Psychobabble again. I'm sure you're coming from a good place, and to a large extent, I agree with your intent. But it's just not true that pain doesn't force learning. I mean, what did you do when you were getting your degree if you didn't ;earn about conditioning (the actual math, not the short version we're talking about here)?

You can't hand wave away what I'm saying by commenting that it's psychobabble. Fear response is absolutely a learned response, however when it's active it inhibits other forms of learning. A kid who burns his hand on the stove isn't going to LEARN anything other than that absolutely basic fear response. Pain does not evoke higher level (frontal lobe) learning, which is what you are attempting to stimulate when you're talking to your children about good and bad behaviors. Pain and fear force a subject into a state of heightened awareness, which uses a primary focus of self-preservation to guide behavior. It increases impulsive behaviors and inhibits self-control.


Dude, we all agree abuse is bad. That quote says nothing about general corporal punishment. In fact, it implies that all types of abuse are equal.

Still waiting for something against corporal punishment.

http://www.denverpost.com/lifestyles/ci_26538968/corporal-punishment-not-effective-long-term-experts-say

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx


While the nature of the analyses prohibits causally linking corporal punishment with the child behaviors, Gershoff also summarizes a large body of literature on parenting that suggests why corporal punishment may actually cause negative outcomes for children. For one, corporal punishment on its own does not teach children right from wrong. Secondly, although it makes children afraid to disobey when parents are present, when parents are not present to administer the punishment those same children will misbehave.

Literally 2 seconds on a google search. Want more? I can give you dozens of peer reviewed papers on this subject. You're absolutely, 100% wrong. Period. You aren't arguing with me on this subject, you're arguing with millions of hours worth of research on the topic. The above is from a meta-analysis of 88 papers.


Punishment is necessary for learning in a Pavlovian sense.

Much of the time a Pavlovian response is not even consciously learned. It is called operant conditioning in that the learning is automatic and non-conscious. So you're trying to teach your kids something they aren't even aware of.


The discussion by itself won't do anything, especially initially, since there's no reason for a kid to care if nothing bad happens to them. It takes both punishment and reinforcement to curb behavior in the right direction.

Completely disagree. For starters, upsetting your parents is definitely an adversive stimulus, particularly if it carries the future potential for negative repercussions. Kids care because they care about their parents and want their approval. Punishment is completely unnecessary if the parent is using proper reinforcement techniques, as outlined above.

[DPG21920]

Simple question for those that believe in spanking (which I do):

If you tasked someone with watching your child and gave them the authority to spank your child/discipline them (whether it's an uncle/aunt or grandma/grandpa or family friend, ect..) and you saw this, would you be ok with it?

If they explained what the child did wrong to you and why they felt the need to discipline the child and didn't appear angry but legitmately were trying to be a good guardian, would you be ok?

[Blake]

Simple question for those that believe in spanking (which I do):

If you tasked someone with watching your child and gave them the authority to spank your child/discipline them (whether it's an uncle/aunt or grandma/grandpa or family friend, ect..) and you saw this, would you be ok with it?

If they explained what the child did wrong to you and why they felt the need to discipline the child and didn't appear angry but legitmately were trying to be a good guardian, would you be ok?

would you be cool with being that guardian and spanking another person's kids?

[Chinook]

I'm aware of the meanings of positive and negative, thank you.

I'm glad you are. Hopefully, you won't say something like this again:

"There is no 'positive punishment' in Psychology, and guess why that is? Because punishment does not alter behavior in a positive way."



You can't hand wave away what I'm saying by commenting that it's psychobabble. Fear response is absolutely a learned response, however when it's active it inhibits other forms of learning. A kid who burns his hand on the stove isn't going to LEARN anything other than that absolutely basic fear response. Pain does not evoke higher level (frontal lobe) learning, which is what you are attempting to stimulate when you're talking to your children about good and bad behaviors. Pain and fear force a subject into a state of heightened awareness, which uses a primary focus of self-preservation to guide behavior. It increases impulsive behaviors and inhibits self-control.

I can certainly hand-wave you disregarding subconscious learning. You don't have to rationalize things to avoid doing them. That's why punishment is necessary, especially when a kid is too young to think clearly. Don't be overly humanistic: We're still animals and learn in very similar ways. The reason why a person who hurts their leg limps is because it hurts too much to put full weight on their leg, not because they're scared of it. Pain is just a part of life, and there usually aren't deep-seeded psychological issues going on every time someone experiences it.


Literally 2 seconds on a google search. Want more? I can give you dozens of peer reviewed papers on this subject. You're absolutely, 100% wrong. Period. You aren't arguing with me on this subject, you're arguing with millions of hours worth of research on the topic. The above is from a meta-analysis of 88 papers.

Yeah, I'd much rather read an actually study than an agenda'd meta-analysis. Even the article you posted about the analysis had a dissenting view that was pretty much what I've been saying this whole time: That the studies focused on abuse, not corporal punishment in general, and were thusly biased.


Much of the time a Pavlovian response is not even consciously learned. It is called operant conditioning in that the learning is automatic and non-conscious. So you're trying to teach your kids something they aren't even aware of.

Yep.


Completely disagree. For starters, upsetting your parents is definitely an adversive stimulus, particularly if it carries the future potential for negative repercussions. Kids care because they care about their parents and want their approval. Punishment is completely unnecessary if the parent is using proper reinforcement techniques, as outlined above.

"Negative repercussions" are aspects of punishment. You can't get around it. You just keep trying to relabel it as "negative reinforcement", thereby completely mischaracterizing the debate. Reinforcement encourages behavior while punishment discourages it. If you seriously are trying to assert that parents can (and should) raise their kids while never discouraging bad behavior, then I think you're being disingenuous, and almost certainly hypocritical if you've had young kids at all.

[Chinook]

Simple question for those that believe in spanking (which I do):

If you tasked someone with watching your child and gave them the authority to spank your child/discipline them (whether it's an uncle/aunt or grandma/grandpa or family friend, ect..) and you saw this, would you be ok with it?

If they explained what the child did wrong to you and why they felt the need to discipline the child and didn't appear angry but legitmately were trying to be a good guardian, would you be ok?

What's the point of that question? It's almost unanimous here than Peterson went over the line. It's like asking if we'd be okay with a guardian locking our kid in the cellar for two weeks because we invested the guardian with the power to ground the kid.

[DPG21920]

would you be cool with being that guardian and spanking another person's kids?

Yes. And I have. My nieces and nephews. My brothers were fine with it.

[DPG21920]

What's the point of that question? It's almost unanimous here than Peterson went over the line. It's like asking if we'd be okay with a guardian locking our kid in the cellar for two weeks because we invested the guardian with the power to ground the kid.

It was for the people who might think the punishment is ok. Not a majority, but there are people defending AP (not just here, but in general).

[spurraider21]

I'm glad you are. Hopefully, you won't say something like this again:

"There is no 'positive punishment' in Psychology, and guess why that is? Because punishment does not alter behavior in a positive way."




I can certainly hand-wave you disregarding subconscious learning. You don't have to rationalize things to avoid doing them. That's why punishment is necessary, especially when a kid is too young to think clearly. Don't be overly humanistic: We're still animals and learn in very similar ways. The reason why a person who hurts their leg limps is because it hurts too much to put full weight on their leg, not because they're scared of it. Pain is just a part of life, and there usually aren't deep-seeded psychological issues going on every time someone experiences it.



Yeah, I'd much rather read an actually study than an agenda'd meta-analysis. Even the article you posted about the analysis had a dissenting view that was pretty much what I've been saying this whole time: That the studies focused on abuse, not corporal punishment in general, and were thusly biased.



Yep.



"Negative repercussions" are aspects of punishment. You can't get around it. You just keep trying to relabel it as "negative reinforcement", thereby completely mischaracterizing the debate. Reinforcement encourages behavior while punishment discourages it. If you seriously are trying to assert that parents can (and should) raise their kids while never discouraging bad behavior, then I think you're being disingenuous, and almost certainly hypocritical if you've had young kids at all.
http://media2.giphy.com/media/z1FzPhvrIZXTa/giphy.gif

[The Gemini Method]

Not sure if my pops were alive and I was a child that he would be a free man. I was disciplined very harshly on occasion and well, what would probably be construed as "abuse" these days. He broke a bamboo reed over my back one time in front of my friends. It was due to the fact that I told him to f#$k off when he was attempting to get me to submit to his idea of what a child born of his ethnic background should be. It was one of the most painful things I've ever been witness to and my friends (those that still remain from that day...) continue to bring that day up when we reminisce.

[Blake]

Yes. And I have. My nieces and nephews. My brothers were fine with it.

that's more responsibility than I care to take on, imo

[The Gemini Method]

that's more responsibility than I care to take on, imo

Yeah, that seems odd--not sure if I would feel comfortable physically disciplining my niece and my nephew. I scold them verbally at times and educate them on their actions, but overall disciplining in the spanking sense would not be my forte.

[Chinook]

http://media2.giphy.com/media/z1FzPhvrIZXTa/giphy.gif

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/54394436.jpg

[Blake]

Yeah, that seems odd--not sure if I would feel comfortable physically disciplining my niece and my nephew. I scold them verbally at times and educate them on their actions, but overall disciplining in the spanking sense would not be my forte.

Ditto

[Findog]

When is Magnum gonna make this guy their spokesman?

"When you're not even remotely a safe person for kids to be around, wrap a magnum around that bitch."

[Thread]

What does it feel like to know that you're on your last legs and likely to die at any moment?

...

- "And I have some advice for you as well, Archie...Don't ever grow old."

- Bert Mustin - "All in the Family"

[DPG21920]

Yeah, that seems odd--not sure if I would feel comfortable physically disciplining my niece and my nephew. I scold them verbally at times and educate them on their actions, but overall disciplining in the spanking sense would not be my forte.

That was the point of my question (in general). If what you do, you would not be comfortable with someone else in the care of your child doing, you're probably wrong. If you believe in light spankings, the reason you are doing that is not to beat the child, but teach them. If you have no problem verbally scolding them, I see no difference. The punishment you believe is the question, not the type if you feel what you are doing is right (i.e. if you spank then someone else spanks or if you scold, someone else scold).

[Chinook]

That was the point of my question (in general). If what you do, you would not be comfortable with someone else in the care of your child doing, you're probably wrong. If you believe in light spankings, the reason you are doing that is not to beat the child, but teach them. If you have no problem verbally scolding them, I see no difference. The punishment you believe is the question, not the type if you feel what you are doing is right (i.e. if you spank then someone else spanks or if you scold, someone else scold).

I think it's more that I wouldn't exactly want the type of punishment to be up to the discretion of someone else. Even folks who believe in corporal punishment know it's not warranted in all cases. I don't like the idea of someone hitting my kid for doing something I wouldn't hit them for. And I wouldn't want to hit someone else's kid for something their parents wouldn't hit them for. That can send all kinds of wrong messages. Also, I might not want to risk someone else going Peterson on my kids.

[Cry Havoc]

I'm glad you are. Hopefully, you won't say something like this again:

"There is no 'positive punishment' in Psychology, and guess why that is? Because punishment does not alter behavior in a positive way."



And as a man, I can admit when I am mistaken. I certainly was here. I hope you can do the same upon reading the research.



Yeah, I'd much rather read an actually study than an agenda'd meta-analysis. Even the article you posted about the analysis had a dissenting view that was pretty much what I've been saying this whole time: That the studies focused on abuse, not corporal punishment in general, and were thusly biased.


For someone who's so on my ass about Psychology, you don't seem to have done an iota of research on the topic yourself. I have volumes here. I figured a meta-analysis would be fine, but of course it wasn't good enough for you, despite the overwhelming validity that meta-analyses typically bring with them.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx


But spanking doesn’t work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”[/SIZE]


http://www.apa.org/about/policy/corporal-punishment.aspx

http://www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/positive-discipline/should-I-spank-my-child


A major study at Tulane University, published in Pediatrics (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/04/12/peds.2009-2678.abstract) controlled for other factors that have been found to contribute to aggressiveness in children, including the mother's depression, alcohol and drug use, spousal abuse and even whether the mother considered abortion while pregnant with the child. Spanking remained a strong predictor of violent behavior in the child. As five-year-olds, the children who had been spanked were more likely than the non-spanked to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, become frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against other people or animals.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/16/living/spanking-cultural-roots-attitudes-parents/


The research, according to Gershoff, is conclusive: spanking does not improve behavior, leads to aggression and other behavior problems like stealing and lying, makes it more likely children will have mental health issues such as depression and anxiety and could lead to learning problems at school.


http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/

I expect Sweden to collapse any day now. :lol Oh wait, it's one of the most prosperous countries on the planet? Kids aren't running amok through Ikea? How is that possible?!?!?! Without hitting your kids they'll never learn any manners, right?

I can pull up dozens of more studies, but I implore you not to continue to be so lazy and actually do a little research yourself. Since it's so readily available on Google.

[Chinook]

And as a man, I can admit when I am mistaken. I certainly was here. I hope you can do the same upon reading the research.

If by admitting, you mean make indignant comments, then yeah, you admitted to your mistake.


For someone who's so on my ass about Psychology, you don't seem to have done an iota of research on the topic yourself. I have volumes here. I figured a meta-analysis would be fine, but of course it wasn't good enough for you, despite the overwhelming validity that meta-analyses typically bring with them.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

Bro, a meta-analysis is a research paper. It's no better than my term papers that I had to do in college. It's not objective; rather it is a person with a stance trying to find evidence to justify it. That's why I wanted the actual studies. I actually know how to read and evaluate research papers, so I don't need someone else to interpret it for me. Even your new link is just an article that I can't vet at all. I will read the paper you linked to see how strong it is. According to the abstract, though, it says that infrequent spankings are not part of the correlation. That means there's a lot of math to look at.


I expect Sweden to collapse any day now. :lol Oh wait, it's one of the most prosperous countries on the planet? Kids aren't running amok through Ikea? How is that possible?!?!?! Without hitting your kids they'll never learn any manners, right?

I can pull up dozens of more studies, but I implore you not to continue to be so lazy and actually do a little research yourself. Since it's so readily available on Google.

I like how you've completely backed off your whole "punishment is bad" angle. Yet, you haven't admitted to being wrong on it. Great job of admitting your mistakes there.

Again, it's odd having this debate with you, because you've had to change your stance so much over the course of the discussion. Your only hope is that I'll be unable to read the papers who've posted and be able to make my own judgments on them. Clearly, you seem unable to navigate the field without getting hung up.

[Fabbs]

The only time i spanked my kid was when she was 2...
You and Chump have a child?
http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/files/2011/01/modern-family-renewal.jpg

[DPG21920]

I think it's more that I wouldn't exactly want the type of punishment to be up to the discretion of someone else. Even folks who believe in corporal punishment know it's not warranted in all cases. I don't like the idea of someone hitting my kid for doing something I wouldn't hit them for. And I wouldn't want to hit someone else's kid for something their parents wouldn't hit them for. That can send all kinds of wrong messages. Also, I might not want to risk someone else going Peterson on my kids.

I don't know about that logic. To me, if you can't trust someone to make that judgement call, then I don't think I would leave my kids with them in the first place. With me, my brothers openly communicate their beliefs and how they discipline their kids and the things they really look out for and are teaching at any given moment. It was pretty clear they trusted my judgement, believe in what they do and only leave their kids with someone they trust completely when it comes to loving their child, watching out for them and being a strong support system in the way they raise their kids.

[leemajors]

When is Magnum gonna make this guy their spokesman?

"When you're not even remotely a safe person for kids to be around, wrap a magnum around that bitch."

He lost Nike and Wheaties so there is certainly an opportunity!

[Chinook]

All right. So I've read the study a couple of times (not uber closely, but I did make sure to go through the important parts at least once).

It looks like the set-up is that they (meaning the FFCWS) went to the houses of a bunch of women and asked them how often they hit their kids over the course of the previous month. Then, they asked them how much of an asshole their kids were in school (or wherever three-year-olds go). Two years later, they visited the same women and ask how big of an asshole their kids were now. They (meaning the researchers) gave asshole rating based on what I assume was a pre-determined quantification scale (which is typical and completely reasonable).

There are a few things wrong with this methodology. First, is that relying on self-reporting is a big deal. Parents who abuse their kids are likely to under report, which drives the critical value down significantly (or can). Secondly, the parents are not necessarily reliable sources for reporting the misconduct of their kids. I imagine (but don't know) that parents who don't hit their kids may be more likely to see their children favorably than parents who are more combative. That's idle speculation on my part, but it's something to be considered. Also, the demographic distribution seems to be skewed, since self-reporting and participation in general is usually done by certain types of people. Really abusive parents or apathetic parents probably don't want to be part of such a study.

As far as the stats go, they try to control for a ton of demographic factors, but in doing so, they end up getting non-significant results from folks who spanked their kids to a moderate extent. One thing that seems to be missing is a distribution chart for numbers of CP incidents, which would be interesting for me to see. They don't even seem to have that data available, so I can't even see a variance or mean.

In the end, it looks like the study says that if you hit your kids a lot, then they end up being aggressive (which is defined extremely generously here). But this is a very noisy study, and the numbers don't look nearly as good when you start to parse through them. I'd like to see some raw data, since having only three barrels (but still using a continuous scale for some reason) doesn't instill in me much confidence.

[Cry Havoc]

If by admitting, you mean make indignant comments, then yeah, you admitted to your mistake.

Please show me where I made indignant comments. Just because I was wrong about one detail does not throw my entire argument out, nor allow you to make ridiculous statements.


Bro, a meta-analysis is a research paper. It's no better than my term papers that I had to do in college. That's why I wanted the actual studies. Even your new link is just an article that I can't vet at all. I will read the paper you linked to see how strong it is.

Bro, I know what a meta-analysis is. And your definition is off. It CAN be a research paper -- it can also be a very powerful study that seeks to attain greater clarity over a multitude of other studies. There's a reason meta-analyses are accepted at all levels of research. Unless you think that research is fine UNLESS it's a meta, in which case it's completely invalid, despite being accepted by every academic institution that does research. :lol


It's not objective; rather it is a person with a stance trying to find evidence to justify it.

Ex...cept, you know, they're only using past studies to do so. They are using data that's already there. They can't conflate subject and hypothesis here because it's all been done already.


According to the abstract, though, it says that infrequent spankings are not part of the correlation. That means there's a lot of math to look at.

Which is why I linked SEVERAL studies, all of which are referenced in the material. Why are you not bringing those up? Is it really that tough to admit when the science is basically saying that you're wrong, full stop? There's no math to look at here, dude.

This is all aside from the issue, however. I don't think parents should be thrown in jail for spanking their kids once in a while. I don't even think it makes them bad parents. I disagree with the decision and think it's a bad one, but I also don't expect parents to be perfect.


I like how you've completely backed off your whole "punishment is bad" angle. Yet, you haven't admitted to being wrong on it. Great job of admitting your mistakes there.

I like how you're now attempting to ad-hominem me to death instead of addressing the multitude of research I've posted. I've said from the BEGINNING that discipline is necessary in children. And I haven't wavered from my stance that physical punishment is a bad choice.


Again, it's odd having this debate with you, because you've had to change your stance so much over the course of the discussion. Your only hope is that I'll be unable to read the papers who've posted and be able to make my own judgments on them. Clearly, you seem unable to navigate the field without getting hung up.

Again, it's odd, because now the debate seems to be shifting to me instead of the research I presented. Funny how that works, isn't it?

[Cry Havoc]

All right. So I've read the study a couple of times (not uber closely, but I did make sure to go through the important parts at least once).

I think it's funny how I linked 5 different studies (that internally refer to OTHER studies conducted on the issue) and you keep referring to "the study" I've linked. That's cool. I mean, it's 1000% intellectual dishonest, but that's cool, bro. Keep it up.

[Cry Havoc]

Were you spanked as a child? Then you may think it's a good way to guide a child. Or maybe you don't want to spank, but you find yourself doing it because you don't know how else to get through to your child. Interestingly, adults who were not spanked as children don't spank their kids. It just feels wrong to them. And you know what? They find other ways to get through to their kids. And their children turn out fine. In fact, it's the kids who are spanked who have a harder time regulating their emotions, and who get into more trouble.

The last thirty years of research give us very clear results. (The citations are at the end of this post.) Kids who are spanked are less emotionally healthy than kids who aren't. What's more, kids who are spanked behave worse over time.

So if you were spanked and think you came out alright, it wasn't because of the spanking. And while you fine, hopefully, you would probably be a bit healthier emotionally if you hadn't been spanked.

A 2013 study by Elizabeth Gershoff and her team (cited below) reviewed the previous two decades of research and confirmed that children who are spanked are more likely to exhibit depression, anxiety, drug use, and aggression as they get older. Children who have suffered more severe corporal punishment have been shown to have less gray matter in their frontal cortex, and to have amygdalas that are more hyper-vigilant. The only positive outcome that's ever been shown from spanking is immediate compliance; however, corporal punishment is associated with less long-term compliance. Corporal punishment has repeatedly been linked with nine other negative outcomes, including increased rates of aggression, delinquency, mental health problems, and problems in relationships with their parents.

Large, peer-reviewed studies repeatedly show that the more children are hit, the more likely they are to hit others, including peers and siblings. As adults, they are more likely to hit their spouses. The more parents spank children for antisocial behavior, the more the antisocial behavior increases. All of the peer reviewed studies being published continue to confirm these findings.

A major study at Tulane University, published in Pediatrics (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/04/12/peds.2009-2678.abstract) controlled for other factors that have been found to contribute to aggressiveness in children, including the mother's depression, alcohol and drug use, spousal abuse and even whether the mother considered abortion while pregnant with the child. Spanking remained a strong predictor of violent behavior in the child. As five-year-olds, the children who had been spanked were more likely than the non-spanked to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, become frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against other people or animals.

Quite simply, spanking produces WORSE behavior, not better behavior. It also begets more violence, because hitting children teaches them that it is acceptable to hit others who are smaller and weaker. “I'm going to hit you because you hit your sister” is a hypocrisy not lost on children. As every parent knows, kids do what we do, not what we say.

Discipline means “to teach." If we're serious about raising good kids, we need to use methods that teach kids to manage themselves. Spanking does not do that. Instead, it teaches kids to be afraid of us, which is no basis for love. It teaches them to be sneaky so they won't be caught doing something wrong. It teaches kids that they are bad, so they are more likely to behave badly. It teaches kids to use violence when they want to solve a problem. And it keeps them from taking responsibility to improve their own behavior, because they "externalize the locus of control," which means they only behave because an authority figure makes them, rather than behaving because they want to. I haven't seen any research on this, but my anecdotal report is that if you talk to people in prison, you'll find they were all spanked.

The unfortunate thing is that spanking not only doesn't work, it is totally unnecessary. When children are raised with age-appropriate expectations and limits accompanied by empathy, they tend to behave and cooperate. Those children don't need much in the way of discipline at all, and they become self-disciplined adults. (Want more info on how to guide your kids without spanking?)

So next time you get so angry you want to hit someone, tell your kids you’re taking a timeout and you’ll deal with them later. Then go into the bathroom, run the water, and calm yourself down. Use the time to get calm, not to justify your anger. When you come out, tell them you need to think hard about what they did, but right now you need to fix dinner (do the laundry, whatever.) Tell them you need them to be little angels, and you will talk when you are all calm later. Then follow through.

Your discipline and teaching will be so much more effective. They’ll learn a lot better when they aren’t in the flush of flight or flight hormones. And you will be so grateful to see yourself becoming the kind of parent every child deserves. (For more on this, see For Parents: How to Handle Your Own Anger.)

“As 5-year-olds, the children who had been spanked were more likely than the non-spanked to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, become frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against other people or animals” 33( Time, Physical Punishment Increases Aggression in Children)

“Physical punishment is also associated with a variety of mental health problems, such as depression, anxiety and use of drugs and alcohol” 34 (Science Daily, Canadian Medical Association Journal: Long-term Negative Effects of Physical Punishment)

“IQs of children ages 2 to 4 who were not spanked were 5 points higher four years later than the IQs of those who were spanked” 35 (Science Daily, Research Shows Children Who Are Spanked Have Lower IQ’s)

“Dr. Brazy at Duke University and Ludington-Hoe and colleagues at Case Western University showed in 2 separate studies how prolonged crying in infants causes increased blood pressure in the brain, elevates stress hormones, obstructs blood from draining out of the brain, and decreases oxygenation to the brain. They concluded that caregivers should answer cries swiftly, consistently, and comprehensively.” 36 (Dr. William Sears: Studies on the Effects of Excessive/ Prolonged Crying in Infancy)

“Dr. Allan Schore (1996), of the UCLA School of Medicine has demonstrated that the stress hormone cortisol can damage nerve connections in significant areas of the infant’s brain. His research suggests that not only does stress damage connections in these areas of the infant’s brain but when the areas of the infant’s brain responsible for bonding, emotional control, and attachment are not nurtured in a healthy way, those areas remain undeveloped or underdeveloped” 37 (Cambridge Journal, Studies on the Effects of Prolonged Crying in Infancy)


MORE REFERENCES:

Elizabeth Gershoff is recognized as the leading researcher on spanking in the United States today. Here's her most recent report: Report on Physical Punishment in the United States: What Research Tells Us About Its Effects On Children.


Joan Durrant at the University of Manitoba is one of the leading researchers in Canada and gives a round-up of the research citations here: http://www.cmaj.ca/content/184/12/1373#ref-36

There's an avalanche of research that is in 98% of agreement about the negative effects of spanking. Here are just a few:

Berlin, L.J., Ispa, J.M., Fine, M.A., Malone, P.S., Brooks-Gunn, J., Brady-Smith, C., et al. (2009). Correlates and consequences of spanking and verbal punishment for low-income White, African American, and Mexican American toddlers. Child Development, 80, 1403-1420.

Gershoff, E.T. (2002). Corporal punishment by parents and association behaviors and experiences: A meta-analytic and theoretical review.Psychological Bulletin, 128, 539-579.

Gershoff, E. T. (2013). Spanking and child development: We know enough now to stop hitting our children. Child Development Perspectives, 7 (3), 133-137.

Gershoff, E.T., & Grogan-Kaylor, A. (2013). Spanking and its consequences for children: New meta-analyses and old controversies. Manuscript under review.

Gershoff, E.T., Lansford, J.E., Sexton, H.R., Davis-Kean, P.E., & Sameroff, A.J. (2012). Longitudinal links between spanking and children’s externalizing behaviors in a national sample of White, Black, Hispanic, and Asian American families. Child Development, 83, 838-843.

[Cry Havoc]

"I don't think parents should be thrown in jail for spanking their kids once in a while. I don't even think it makes them bad parents. I disagree with the decision and think it's a bad one, but I also don't expect parents to be perfect."

For visibility's sake.

[Blake]

You and Chump have a child?
http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/files/2011/01/modern-family-renewal.jpg

oh a gay joke. Nice work. :tu

[Chinook]

Please show me where I made indignant comments. Just because I was wrong about one detail does not throw my entire argument out, nor allow you to make ridiculous statements.

"I'm aware of the meanings of positive and negative, thank you." You said that when you clearly didn't know what the words meant in this context.


Bro, I know what a meta-analysis is. And your definition is off. It CAN be a research paper -- it can also be a very powerful study that seeks to attain greater clarity over a multitude of other studies. There's a reason meta-analyses are accepted at all levels of research. Unless you think that research is fine UNLESS it's a meta, in which case it's completely invalid, despite being accepted by every academic institution that does research. :lol

Yeah, meta-analyses are actually weaker, since they have to ignore a lot of factors to increase the sample size. It's like synthesizing AIDS research from Africa and the US has to basically ignore the infrastructural differences between the two places. Meta-analyses are fine for discussing major tends, but they themselves don't say a whole lot.


Ex...cept, you know, they're only using past studies to do so. They are using data that's already there. They can't conflate subject and hypothesis here because it's all been done already.

Have you ever written a research paper? You can change a thesis any time you want. It's even easier with a meta-analysis, since you don't have to worry about going against your own research.


Which is why I linked SEVERAL studies, all of which are referenced in the material. Why are you not bringing those up? Is it really that tough to admit when the science is basically saying that you're wrong, full stop? There's no math to look at here, dude.

I am not looking for a CNN article about a study. I read the AAAP one you linked. That one certainly had faulty math.


This is all aside from the issue, however. I don't think parents should be thrown in jail for spanking their kids once in a while. I don't even think it makes them bad parents. I disagree with the decision and think it's a bad one, but I also don't expect parents to be perfect.

A perfectly reasonable stance, and one on which we could agree to disagree without all the fracas.


I like how you're now attempting to ad-hominem me to death instead of addressing the multitude of research I've posted. I've said from the BEGINNING that discipline is necessary in children. And I haven't wavered from my stance that physical punishment is a bad choice.

You're the one who was mixed up on your definitions. You completely backed off the "Punishment is wrong" angle, and still had the gall to assert that you admit to mistakes.


Again, it's odd, because now the debate seems to be shifting to me instead of the research I presented. Funny how that works, isn't it?

The research itself is what it is. As I said before, when I get a paper, I actually read it. I don't go around touting some article about it as proof. The reason why you seem to be the subject of this discussion (you're not, but whatever) is because it's taken you this long to actually get to the debate. Hell, we still haven't really gotten there.


I think it's funny how I linked 5 different studies and you keep referring to "the study" I've linked. That's cool. I mean, it's 1000% intellectual dishonest, but that's cool, bro. Keep it up.

See my previous point. As far as I saw, you linked one actual research paper, which I read and evaluated. I can read more if you like, or you can read them yourself and stop letting the researchers tell you their spin through main-stream articles.

[Chinook]

Large, peer-reviewed studies repeatedly show that the more children are hit, the more likely they are to hit others, including peers and siblings. As adults, they are more likely to hit their spouses. The more parents spank children for antisocial behavior, the more the antisocial behavior increases. All of the peer reviewed studies being published continue to confirm these findings.

A major study at Tulane University, published in Pediatrics (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/04/12/peds.2009-2678.abstract) controlled for other factors that have been found to contribute to aggressiveness in children, including the mother's depression, alcohol and drug use, spousal abuse and even whether the mother considered abortion while pregnant with the child. Spanking remained a strong predictor of violent behavior in the child. As five-year-olds, the children who had been spanked were more likely than the non-spanked to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, become frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against other people or animals.

Yeah, that's the study (the link) I read. That's the one that found NS values when they controlled for all those factors.

Anyway, that's not a study (the whole text you posted, not the link). It's an article that at best is a research paper. Maybe that's why there's a hangup in our discussion. Articles are extremely biased, as anyone who's worked in journalism can tell you. They don't necessarily have a political agenda or anything like that, but they have angles and want to illuminate stances.

[Cry Havoc]

[COLOR=#000000]See my previous point. As far as I saw, you linked one actual research paper, which I read and evaluated. I can read more if you like, or you can read them yourself and stop letting the researchers tell you their spin through main-stream articles.

I linked 5. You realize the CNN piece has a direct link to the paper in question in the article, right?

Do you want me to link 20? 30? They're right there on Google, and they aren't hard to find. You're giving these responses like research on child abuse is some aberration or anomaly. It's not. We're talking hundreds of studies pointing to the same thing here. Perhaps fewer that SPECIFICALLY refer to spanking only, but those aren't hard to find, either.

[Cry Havoc]

From the CNN article:

http://www.phoenixchildrens.org/community/injury-prevention-center/effective-discipline

[Cry Havoc]

I'd also like to see some studies that actually show corporeal punishment improves behavior in children. Got any of those, Chinook? Surely if it is in fact so effective there must be some peer-reviewed literature on the topic.

[Chinook]

I linked 5. You realize the CNN piece has a direct link to the paper in question in the article, right?

Do you want me to link 20? 30? They're right there on Google, and they aren't hard to find. You're giving these responses like research on child abuse is some aberration or anomaly. It's not. We're talking hundreds of studies pointing to the same thing here. Perhaps fewer that SPECIFICALLY refer to spanking only, but those aren't hard to find, either.

So do you think that linking a Wikipedia article means you've linked the dozens of studies it cites? Nope. It's one thing to tell me to research it. It's another to post articles and use those as proof unless I object.


From the CNN article:

http://www.phoenixchildrens.org/comm...ive-discipline (http://www.phoenixchildrens.org/community/injury-prevention-center/effective-discipline)

Did you even read this first?


I'd also like to see some studies that actually show corporeal punishment improves behavior in children. Got any of those, Chinook? Surely if it is in fact so effective there must be some peer-reviewed literature on the topic.

I can look, but I don't off the top of my head. I didn't study humans much in school. Have a feeling those aren't all that easy to find, since social pressures drive research as well.

[Avante]

All this stuff when it's simply a guy too damn strong to be whipping anyone.

[Cry Havoc]

I can look, but I don't off the top of my head. I didn't study humans much in school. Have a feeling those aren't all that easy to find, since social pressures drive research as well.

:lol And now we're out with it. Research is biased and therefore inaccurate. Science is all just a social game with no validity because it's the popular opinion that really decides (you know, despite a vast number of households in the US probably in excess of 50% that believe in CP). :lol So predictable. This discussion is over. Your opinion is above the science, so I don't know why you bothered to even entertain the discussion.