Gary Payton top 10

[ElNono]

Since we're getting bombarded with threads about retired players, here's my contribution: The Glove, Gary Payton

YfS8lEzIVSo

A true competitor, and unlike pedo Malone, he was eventually rewarded with a ring, tbh...

[lefty]

One of the best guards to ever play the game

[Malik Hairston]

:lol boring top 10, tbh, mostly fastbreak passes with no defenders..

Pretty sad that the 3rd best play of Gary Payton's career is a crossover that occurs in virtually every single game nowadays:lol..

A nice 90s highlight video for a PG would be Penny Hardaway(if you consider him a PG) or even Kevin Johnson, tbh..

[lefty]

Damn MH has a long shit list
He's on a mission

[ElNono]

:lol boring top 10, tbh, mostly fastbreak passes with no defenders..

Pretty sad that the 3rd best play of Gary Payton's career is a crossover that occurs in virtually every single game nowadays:lol..

A nice 90s highlight video for a PG would be Penny Hardaway(if you consider him a PG) or even Kevin Johnson, tbh..

tbh, he was more known for his big mouth than his play, IMO.

[Infinite_limit]

:lol boring top 10, tbh, mostly fastbreak passes with no defenders..

Pretty sad that the 3rd best play of Gary Payton's career is a crossover that occurs in virtually every single game nowadays:lol..

A nice 90s highlight video for a PG would be Penny Hardaway(if you consider him a PG) or even Kevin Johnson, tbh..
He finished over Malone, in an ERA where guys were openly elbowed in the face


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY

You can't compare it to the defense-less NBA of today.

[Infinite_limit]

tbh, he was more known for his big mouth than his play, IMO.
9 X All-Defense. DPOY in 1996

[lefty]

What was MJ's shooting percentage vs Seattle in 96 ?

[Malik Hairston]

He finished over Malone, in an ERA where guys were openly elbowed in the face


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY

You can't compare it to the defense-less NBA of today.

:lol hitting somebody >> superior athleticism, advanced schemes and modern advancements on defense..makes a lot of sense..

Patrick Willis and Luke Kuechly are superior NBA defenders to Serge Ibaka because they're better tacklers:lol..

[spurraider21]

:lol harden
:lol advanced schemes
:lol modern advancements

[Infinite_limit]

:lol hitting somebody >> superior athleticism, advanced schemes and modern advancements on defense..makes a lot of sense..
What is the old saying: Defense is 75% effort?

Very few players in todays NBA give a shit about Defense.

[Malik Hairston]

The 90s NBA teams and players were very fortunate to not have YouTube, Twitter, forums, etc, tbh..

It has given them an undeserved mystique and aura, when in reality, it was some of the worst basketball you'll ever see..

Today's fans complain about OKC and their lack of offensive creativity, yet they play the same style that virtually every single elite team in the 90s played:lol..isolation basketball with 2 superstar players + elite defense..the Thunder would destroy any team from the 90s other than the Bulls, tbh..

The majority of the 90s was teams that looked like the Indiana Pacers of the past 2 years, the same Pacers that today's fans complain about:lol..their bland offensive system would be considered the standard in the 90s(slow pace, post play, elite defense)..

Today's fans have been spoiled by the wizardry and ball movement of the Spurs and Lebron Heat..they complain about teams like OKC and Indiana and their lack of a system, but that's the only style that 90s teams knew how to play:lol..

[Malik Hairston]

I've actually contemplated showing my little cousins videos of 90s basketball(because they've asked me questions about some of the players they have heard about), but I'm not ready yet, tbh..I'm genuinely afraid they would be turned off from the sport of basketball if they watched the era "the greatest of all-time Michael Jordan" actually played in..

[ambchang]

And yet the 80s stunk despite the high scoring because they don't play defense.

Circular logic.

[Malik Hairston]

"Hey Harlem, how come these guys can't dribble the basketball without looking at it?"

"Hey Harlem, how come all these great PGs don't have any triple threat moves or quick handles?"

"Hey Harlem, why do these teams run isolation on every single play?"

"Hey Harlem, how come none of these guys can shoot 3s?"

"Hey Harlem, how come these defensive schemes are so vanilla?"

"Hey Harlem, why is everything so congested on the court?"

"Hey Harlem, what happened to Michael Jordan's dad?"

Damn, man, I have nightmares about some of the questions they would ask, tbh..

[lefty]

"Hey Harlem, how come these guys can't dribble the basketball without looking at it?"

"Hey Harlem, how come all these great PGs don't have any triple threat moves or quick handles?"

"Hey Harlem, why do these teams run isolation on every single play?"

"Hey Harlem, how come none of these guys can shoot 3s?"

"Hey Harlem, how come these defensive schemes are so vanilla?"

"Hey Harlem, why is everything so congested on the court?"

"Hey Harlem, what happened to Michael Jordan's dad?"

Damn, man, I have nightmares about some of the questions they would ask, tbh..
guards didnt have quick handles????

Ever heard of KJ or Tim Hardaway? and they didnt carry the ball like today's "superstars" guards :lol


Why more iso back then? different rules, and better 1 on 1 players


As for shooting 3's , it's the evolution of the game; if you want to gloat about soft faggotty big men who are afraid to muscle it up inside, sure go ahead :lol


Defensive shcemes vanilla ? again, different rules


I dont know what happened to you in the 90's HH :lol, you must have some bad memories tbh, probably been cucked so many times, that's why you love dicks now :lol

[scanry]

Harlem's little cousins ask him about Basketball? :lol

Whenever he gets a crack at Dad Killer, he doesn't miss does he?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The 90s NBA teams and players were very fortunate to not have YouTube, Twitter, forums, etc, tbh..

It has given them an undeserved mystique and aura, when in reality, it was some of the worst basketball you'll ever see..

Today's fans complain about OKC and their lack of offensive creativity, yet they play the same style that virtually every single elite team in the 90s played:lol..isolation basketball with 2 superstar players + elite defense..the Thunder would destroy any team from the 90s other than the Bulls, tbh..

The majority of the 90s was teams that looked like the Indiana Pacers of the past 2 years, the same Pacers that today's fans complain about:lol..their bland offensive system would be considered the standard in the 90s(slow pace, post play, elite defense)..

Today's fans have been spoiled by the wizardry and ball movement of the Spurs and Lebron Heat..they complain about teams like OKC and Indiana and their lack of a system, but that's the only style that 90s teams knew how to play:lol..

Your a fan of modern pussyball. It's okay.

Your take is also asinine. There was more post play but player migration was not as easy and teams tended to stay together for long periods of time.

Price and the Cavs were not simple.
Magic and Divac were not simple.
Johnson's Suns were not simple.
Bulls triangle was not isoball like you claim.
You wouldn't think your cousin's would respect Hakeem's game?
Stockton to Malone was not simple.
Karl's Sonics were not simple.
They would love the monkeyball of Shaq and Penny.

The mindless grinders like Portland, NY and Detroit might be the brand of basketball that you are talking about.

Kevin Durant would not be able to function with the rules as they were in the nineties especially with how the playoffs were called. He wouldn't get 10 FTpg.

[Killakobe81]

One of the best guards to ever play the game

This.
Harlem shits on the 90's constantly not my favorite era either but glove to Reign man was a beauty to watch ...and unlike most great PG he played great defense.

[Malik Hairston]

Your a fan of modern pussyball. It's okay.

Your take is also asinine. There was more post play but player migration was not as easy and teams tended to stay together for long periods of time.

Price and the Cavs were not simple.
Magic and Divac were not simple.
Johnson's Suns were not simple.
Bulls triangle was not isoball like you claim.
You wouldn't think your cousin's would respect Hakeem's game?
Stockton to Malone was not simple.
Karl's Sonics were not simple.
They would love the monkeyball of Shaq and Penny.

The mindless grinders like Portland, NY and Detroit might be the brand of basketball that you are talking about.

Kevin Durant would not be able to function with the rules as they were in the nineties especially with how the playoffs were called. He wouldn't get 10 FTpg.

Fuzzy, you're a good guy(a bit of an asshole and condescending, though) and knowledgeable poster, despite you not respecting my opinions on the NBA, but it's evident from the onset that your take is bias, as you refer to today's game as "pussyball", tbh..

I can't have a serious discussion with somebody when they're blatantly disrespecting the skills and talent of today's players like that..

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy, you're a good guy(a bit of an asshole and condescending, though) and knowledgeable poster, despite you not respecting my opinions on the NBA, but it's evident from the onset that your take is bias, as you refer to today's game as "pussyball", tbh..

I can't have a serious discussion with somebody when they're blatantly disrespecting the skills and talent of today's players like that..

lol wut

[dirk4mvp]

:lol rewarded with a ring

[ambchang]

Harlem's worried about his little cousin being a retard and asking things that never happened.

Which begs the question: "Harlem, whys your little cousin a retard? Does it run in the family?"

[ambchang]

Lebrons top ten:

mE295ggKbHU

7 or the top 10 were results of isolation plays with zero offensive schemes. One is a fastbreak similar to Payton's highlight, one is a desperation heave and only one involves ball movement where Lebron went back door on an alleyoop.

Harlem must hate Lebron ball and is worrying about his little cousin asking him why players don't pass the ball when there are 5 guys on the court.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

tbh, he was more known for his big mouth than his play, IMO.

lol no

He was known for his D.

Which makes me question MH's comment quite a bit.

[Tuddy]

Iso ball was a product of the rules primarily. About half the league had a dominant low post scorer as their primary option.

[JoeTait75]

Harlem has the '90s NBA pegged, tbh. Anyone who watched the Fratello-era Cavs and those Knicks-Heat 72-68 "thrillers" should be able to attest to how ugly the game was played back then.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Payton was one of the best defensive player I've seen to be honest. The year he won DPOY, I still vividly remember his intensity. I'm not even exaggerating, he was really a lock down player. He was so crafty and he knew how to aggressively front players without fouling much. When GP stole a ball, it's usually a clean swipe.

And someone correct me, but I don't think he has above average wingspan.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Harlem has the '90s NBA pegged, tbh. Anyone who watched the Fratello-era Cavs and those Knicks-Heat 72-68 "thrillers" should be able to attest to how ugly the game was played back then.


94-98 was just horrible IMO. Once the 96 Rookie class started picking up steam though, the league slowly but surely became more entertaining again, then VC took the league by storm. 2000-2003 IMO was the peak. We got a healthy mix of up and coming players and remnants from the previous legendary talent pool all sharing the same stage.

[Malik Hairston]

I'd love to see Payton go 1 on 1 with Patty Mills in a full team game, tbh, would be fun to watch and a pretty even matchup IMO..

[DAF86]

Malik Hairston aka Harlem is right sons. Do you watch the hardwood classics on NBA tv? PGs dribbling the ball like they are WNBA players, 10 players tangled toghether on the key, 18 foot jumpers being celebrated like three pointers, some of the most awful shooting mechanics ever seen.

[Infinite_limit]

I like Defense. So naturally I prefer the 90's. When I was a young booger eater I enjoyed the 'And1' tour. This is what the NBA has "evolved" into.

[ElNono]

Gary was a physical defender, but he played in an era where you could grab, talk shit all game long to try to get into the other's player head, etc, without repercussions.

Many top defensive players of the time were the same (see our own Bruce).

A lot of those guys likely would be average defenders in today's game or foul out constantly, without having the shenanigans available in their toolchest. Defending today has a lot more to do with being smart about reading offenses, timing, reflexes, athleticism, etc. In other words, more skills based, IMO...

[lefty]

Gary was a physical defender, but he played in an era where you could grab, talk shit all game long to try to get into the other's player head, etc, without repercussions.

Many top defensive players of the time were the same (see our own Bruce).

A lot of those guys likely would be average defenders in today's game or foul out constantly, without having the shenanigans available in their toolchest. Defending today has a lot more to do with being smart about reading offenses, timing, reflexes, athleticism, etc. In other words, more skills based, IMO...
So today's offensive players have it easy

They would struggle in the 90s but today's rules make it easy for them to stat pad

Today's NBA is gay and soft

[Infinite_limit]

So today's offensive players have it easy

They would struggle in the 90s but today's rules make it easy for them to stat pad

Today's NBA is gay and soft
Yup. I have never seen or heard a player Pre 2005 state that the NBA today is tougher or more difficult.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol '90s basketball
:lol No ball movement whatsoever
:lol No advanced defensive schemes because of the illegal defense rules
:lol "Offense" = one player isolates and chucks from midrange while everyone else stands around
:lol "Defense" = hard fouling or waiting for the other team's designated chucker to brick
:lol 40-39 games being passed off as entertaining
:lol In reality, almost as boring as povertyball
:lol Supposedly "tougher" than today's league, if you ignore Dad Killer getting the Durant treatment from the refs, the Jazz making flopping into an artform, etc.
:lol Nostalgiafaggots

[Clipper Nation]

Yup. I have never seen or heard a player Pre 2005 state that the NBA today is tougher or more difficult.

:lol Every retired player says their era is better out of bitterness for current players' attention and accomplishments.... 20 years from now, today's players will be whining that they had it tougher when they played....

[djohn2oo8]

You literally do not have to have any fundamentals in today's game. It's all about dunks and alley oops.

[ElNono]

So today's offensive players have it easy

They would struggle in the 90s but today's rules make it easy for them to stat pad

Today's NBA is gay and soft

I don't know about 'easy', you have much more athletic beasts now that you had back then. The game has evolved a lot offensively, and the 3 point game has become more prominent. Most teams have moved into a more modern NBA offense, with ball movement, stretch 4, etc. Some teams are still stuck with old systems, players and coaches that haven't moved on, and find themselves regularly in the lottery.

It's much more difficult nowadays to be called a 'great defender', which really only means you're getting the best of the best. Back then, a lot of guys that couldn't shoot or pass, were good enough to grab, push and find their niche as a 'lockdown defender'. You can see nowadays that's an extinct type of player (Tony Allen might be the last one). You need to be able to shoot or, at least, understand the team game and offense.

[Leetonidas]

The 90s NBA teams and players were very fortunate to not have YouTube, Twitter, forums, etc, tbh..

It has given them an undeserved mystique and aura, when in reality, it was some of the worst basketball you'll ever see..

Today's fans complain about OKC and their lack of offensive creativity, yet they play the same style that virtually every single elite team in the 90s played:lol..isolation basketball with 2 superstar players + elite defense..the Thunder would destroy any team from the 90s other than the Bulls, tbh..

The majority of the 90s was teams that looked like the Indiana Pacers of the past 2 years, the same Pacers that today's fans complain about:lol..their bland offensive system would be considered the standard in the 90s(slow pace, post play, elite defense)..

Today's fans have been spoiled by the wizardry and ball movement of the Spurs and Lebron Heat..they complain about teams like OKC and Indiana and their lack of a system, but that's the only style that 90s teams knew how to play:lol..


Truth nuke tbh

[djohn2oo8]

I'd say the 2000-2010 was a tougher era.

[ElNono]

You literally do not have to have any fundamentals in today's game. It's all about dunks and alley oops.

Not really. The problem is just that some teams are slow to adapt. The cream of the crop the last few years (San Antonio, Miami, even the '11 Mavs), all had great ball movement, good defensive schemes adapted to their personnel, etc. Teams like OKC, Clippers, Warriors, your Rockets have the talent but not the system (yet), and are only one step away. I'm sure they'll eventually figure it out.

[djohn2oo8]

I don't know about 'easy', you have much more athletic beasts now that you had back then. The game has evolved a lot offensively, and the 3 point game has become more prominent. Most teams have moved into a more modern NBA offense, with ball movement, stretch 4, etc. Some teams are still stuck with old systems, players and coaches that haven't moved on, and find themselves regularly in the lottery.

It's much more difficult nowadays to be called a 'great defender', which really only means you're getting the best of the best. Back then, a lot of guys that couldn't shoot or pass, were good enough to grab, push and find their niche as a 'lockdown defender'. You can see nowadays that's an extinct type of player (Tony Allen might be the last one). You need to be able to shoot or, at least, understand the team game and offense.

These athletic beasts lack fundamentals. Dwight is the best C by default. The SG position is extinct. Power Forwards would rather shoot jumpers than bang in the post and rebound

[Clipper Nation]

These athletic beasts lack fundamentals.

Harden has zero fundamentals, especially on defense, yet you ride his dick :lol

[djohn2oo8]

Yet you say this is a tougher era :lol


Harden has zero fundamentals, especially on defense, yet you ride his dick :lol

[DMC]

You literally do not have to have any fundamentals in today's game. It's all about dunks and alley oops.

You never had to have any fundamentals to play in the NBA. You did it you wanted to compete however. Dunks and alley oops don't win titles, but there are 16 teams every year that never play past the regular season. That's a lot of dunks and alley oop demand.

[Clipper Nation]

Yet you say this is a tougher era :lol

One player =/= an entire era

[ElNono]

These athletic beasts lack fundamentals.

What fundamentals are you talking about? Back in the day, the shooting mechanics were way worse, there was no ball movement, low-iq, iso-only offense was the standard...

[lefty]

These athletic beasts lack fundamentals. Dwight is the best C by default. The SG position is extinct. Power Forwards would rather shoot jumpers than bang in the post and rebound
GAME SET AND MATCH

my nuggrah

[Clipper Nation]

What fundamentals are you talking about? Back in the day, the shooting mechanics were way worse, there was no ball movement, low-iq, iso-only offense was the standard...
Plus, defensive fundamentals weren't a requirement as so many players got away with hacking, grabbing, and hard-fouling and calling it "defense"....

About the only thing the '90s has over this era fundamental-wise is post play, and even then, there's still players with very good post games in today's league....

[DAF86]

Life improves over time on almost every aspect possible, basketball is no exception.

[ElNono]

Plus, defensive fundamentals weren't a requirement as so many players got away with hacking, grabbing, and hard-fouling and calling it "defense"....

About the only thing the '90s has over this era fundamental-wise is post play, and even then, there's still players with very good post games in today's league....

The post game has diminished due to a lot of reasons, including the advent of zone defense, the "Mark Jackson rule" (5 secs back to the basket), the improved 3 point shot accuracy... the Spurs were probably one of the most affected by this in the worst way, but they adapted their game to it.

I actually like 90's basketball, but it's a very different game from today.

[djohn2oo8]

Not really. The problem is just that some teams are slow to adapt. The cream of the crop the last few years (San Antonio, Miami, even the '11 Mavs), all had great ball movement, good defensive schemes adapted to their personnel, etc. Teams like OKC, Clippers, Warriors, your Rockets have the talent but not the system (yet), and are only one step away. I'm sure they'll eventually figure it out.

Yeah I get what you are saying. Those teams you pointed out that won didn't rely on athleticism. Too many teams that are expected to compete rely too much on Athleticism and 3pt shooting rather than defense and ball movement. Only the Spurs can be pointed out as the team who consistently wins with ball movement and defense.

[djohn2oo8]

What fundamentals are you talking about? Back in the day, the shooting mechanics were way worse, there was no ball movement, low-iq, iso-only offense was the standard...

The best center in the game lacks a post game and can't shoot free throws. The top PFs outside of Duncan are so bad on defense that they need a defensive center next to them to hide their deficiencies. The second best SF can barely shoot over 40%. The best SG doesn't attempt to play defense. And Kyrie Irving is getting paid like a top PG for being a stat whoring chucker. Basic fundamentals.

[djohn2oo8]

These guys cost their teams wins because they don't care to improve enough whether it be play defense, shoot free throws, pass the ball, or learn to play in the post.

[DAF86]

The best center in the game lacks a post game and can't shoot free throws. The top PFs outside of Duncan are so bad on defense that they need a defensive center next to them to hide their deficiencies. The second best SF can barely shoot over 40%. The best SG doesn't attempt to play defense. And Kyrie Irving is getting paid like a top PG for being a stat whoring chucker. Basic fundamentals.

-_-

[ElNono]

These guys cost their teams wins because they don't care to improve enough whether it be play defense, shoot free throws, pass the ball, or learn to play in the post.

That's why they haven't won anything... and back in the day, you still had guys that were "stars" and couldn't defend for shit (hello Barkley), but having one or two extremely solid iso guys was good enough to make you contender.

Plus Dwight has other problems, that have a lot more to do with his mental approach to everything, not just the game.

[lefty]

GP would make CP3 cry like a little bitch

[djohn2oo8]

GP would make CP3 cry like a little bitch

That already happens when he doesn't get the whistle

[lefty]

That already happens when he doesn't get the whistle

But... But... CP3 and today's players are tougher

[djohn2oo8]

But... But... CP3 and today's players are tougher

:lol

[JohnnyMax]

djohn2008, who is the second best SF that can barely shoot 40 percent?

[Infinite_limit]

That's why they haven't won anything... and back in the day, you still had guys that were "stars" and couldn't defend for shit (hello Barkley), but having one or two extremely solid iso guys was good enough to make you contender.

Plus Dwight has other problems, that have a lot more to do with his mental approach to everything, not just the game.
Barkley was a rebounding machine

Everyone has a different standard for entertainment. If I wanted to watch 10 guys parade around the court taking turns dunking/chucking 3's and dancing, then I would personally go to the local Gym.

When I tune into competitive sports, I want physical pounding & mental mind games. This simply does not exist in the current NBA. The players are butt buddies and over-paid, the #1 goal each and every night is staying healthy.

[Malik Hairston]

Barkley was a rebounding machine

Everyone has a different standard for entertainment. If I wanted to watch 10 guys parade around the court taking turns dunking/chucking 3's and dancing, then I would personally go to the local Gym.

When I tune into competitive sports, I want physical pounding & mental mind games. This simply does not exist in the current NBA. The players are butt buddies and over-paid, the #1 goal each and every night is staying healthy.

This is your racism speaking, let's be honest, it's slave talk..

You want to see Black men fighting each other and hurting each other, rather than being friends on the court..their smiles and camaraderie further reminds you that they are getting paid a ton of money to play a fun sport that they love..

The 90s was mostly coons that abused each other for the entertainment of the White man, tbh..it's the primary reason that White viewers loved the NBA in the 90s..

[Infinite_limit]

This is your racism speaking, let's be honest, it's slave talk..

You want to see Black men fighting each other and hurting each other, rather than being friends on the court..their smiles and camaraderie further reminds you that they are getting paid a ton of money to play a fun sport that they love..

The 90s was mostly coons that abused each other for the entertainment of the White man, tbh..it's the primary reason that White viewers loved the NBA in the 90s..
Why would I waste my time watching un-educated wanna be thugs make millions of dollars to bounce a ball? The same goes for the NFL. I preferred when the players were bashing their brains in.

They are all over-paid. Most are un-educated idiots. Life is more important than sports

[Malik Hairston]

Why would I waste my time watching un-educated wanna be thugs make millions of dollars to bounce a ball? The same goes for the NFL. I preferred when the players were bashing their brains in.

They are all over-paid. Most are un-educated idiots. Life is more important than sports

That's cool with me, everybody has their own reasons for watching sports..

I don't have a problem with your view, I just wanted you to confirm the real reason you preferred the 90s:lol..

[lefty]

GP would make CP3 cry like a little bitch


That already happens when he doesn't get the whistle


But... But... CP3 and today's players are tougher
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239362&p=7594982#post7594982

[Infinite_limit]

That's cool with me, everybody has their own reasons for watching sports..

I don't have a problem with your view, I just wanted you to confirm the real reason you preferred the 90s:lol..
I prefer the 90's to the current game like every previous player & fan. It was better. The players today are weaker. How would a "Dream Team" in 2014 compare to the 1992 squad? Only James & maybe Durant would crack the 90's team.

There are less Superstars and unhealthy amount of them on the same team. Makes for 95% (including Playoffs) of the NBA season pointless

[m>s]

I'd love to see Payton go 1 on 1 with Patty Mills in a full team game, tbh, would be fun to watch and a pretty even matchup IMO..
Fucking retard, stick to trolling

oh wait

[spurraider21]

it's evident from the onset that your take is bias, as you refer to today's game as "pussyball", tbh..

I can't have a serious discussion with somebody when they're blatantly disrespecting the skills and talent of today's players like that..
tbh can't you say the exact same about yourself, just substitute pussyball with goonball?

[Malik Hairston]

tbh can't you say the exact same about yourself, just substitute pussyball with goonball?

Goonball isn't an insult, as virtually all 90s players and fans pride themselves on the "physicality" and "goonery" of their era(evident in this thread:lol )..

It's a source of pride for them..

[spurraider21]

this argument is just a double edged sword...

offensive players today would have to adjust to a brand of game where physical defense was allowed. guys like Harden and Durant would have to abandon about 40% of their plan of attack.
at the same time, the "goons" and defensive players of the older eras would foul out in 8 minutes if they palyed in today's game. the "great" defenders like bill laimbeer wouldn't be able to stay on the floor unless they adjusted

[spurraider21]

Goonball isn't an insult, as virtually all 90s players and fans pride themselves on the "physicality" and "goonery" of their era(evident in this thread:lol )..

It's a source of pride for them..
goonball is implying a lack of skill though. not saying its accurate or inaccurate, but it's definitely an insult

[Killakobe81]

this argument is just a double edged sword...

offensive players today would have to adjust to a brand of game where physical defense was allowed. guys like Harden and Durant would have to abandon about 40% of their plan of attack.
at the same time, the "goons" and defensive players of the older eras would foul out in 8 minutes if they palyed in today's game. the "great" defenders like bill laimbeer wouldn't be able to stay on the floor unless they adjusted

Great point. Shooting was also better especially in 80's but even in early 90's ... which would help combat some of the complex defenses people that are found of the m odern era. It's funny that the Spurs beat the best practiconers of modern defensive schemes by using a style reminiscent of the ball movement of the mid 80's Celts.

Imho great players are great players. Jerry West for example may have trouble defending Harden or Beal but they also cant shoot as good as him either ...Maybe Wrest doesnt get off his shot as easy as he did in the 60's but my guess he still scores at a high rate. I think guys like Alex English, Adriam dantley woudl struggle but the the all-time greats would transcend eras ...

[ambchang]

So other than the Spurs, which contending team right now actually run team oriented offense instead of ISO ball?

OKC - ISO Ball
Heat - Mostly ISO Ball
Golden State - ISO Ball
Rockets - ISO Ball + FTs
Clippers - ISO Ball + some pick and rolls
Indiana - Doesn't even play offense
Chicago - Even worse than Indiana

I am struggling to see this mythical great era of movement oriented offense in the league right now, when only one single contending team is playing it.

Whereas in the 90s, the Sonics had some semblance of ball movement. Suns were fast faced, but mostly iso ball with Barkley and Johnson, Bulls had the triangle that usually ended up with Jordan ISOing, Spurs played force pass to a triple teamed Robinson while Johnson and Del Negro are wide opened offense, Jazz was pick and roll, Knicks was thug ball at it's best, Rockets was Hakeem and out. Yes, none of them had the fluidity of Spurs ball, but Spurs ball really isn't the norm.

86 Celtics and 77 Blazers and early 70s Knicks were the exceptions rather than the rule.

[Killakobe81]

So other than the Spurs, which contending team right now actually run team oriented offense instead of ISO ball?

OKC - ISO Ball
Heat - Mostly ISO Ball
Golden State - ISO Ball
Rockets - ISO Ball + FTs
Clippers - ISO Ball + some pick and rolls
Indiana - Doesn't even play offense
Chicago - Even worse than Indiana

I am struggling to see this mythical great era of movement oriented offense in the league right now, when only one single contending team is playing it.

Whereas in the 90s, the Sonics had some semblance of ball movement. Suns were fast faced, but mostly iso ball with Barkley and Johnson, Bulls had the triangle that usually ended up with Jordan ISOing, Spurs played force pass to a triple teamed Robinson while Johnson and Del Negro are wide opened offense, Jazz was pick and roll, Knicks was thug ball at it's best, Rockets was Hakeem and out. Yes, none of them had the fluidity of Spurs ball, but Spurs ball really isn't the norm.

86 Celtics and 77 Blazers and early 70s Knicks were the exceptions rather than the rule.

Agree with Amb, Spurs play a style like the mid 80's Celts but most of the teams are playing iso-ball .... I think RC's team plays his flow offense there is an iso component but even the spurs have some as well. I think RC, btw is the only coach on Pop's level with Phil retired ...

[Warlord23]

90s vs 2000s title teams and their systems:
Triangle offense: Bulls (6X) in the 90s, Lakers (5X) since then
Low post big surrounded by shooters: Rockets (2X) + Spurs (1X) in the 90s, Spurs (3x) since
Scrappy, physical defensive team : Pistons in both eras plus Celtics in the 2000s

So where is this fresh, advanced style of ball that won in the 2000s?

The 2014 Spurs are not part of the 2000s, and even if they were, would be the sole exception. In reality, every title team of the 2000s played the same style of basketball that a 90s team won with.

Also, none of this makes Lebron look any better, so you might want to use a different shtick

[Malik Hairston]

Um, the 2011 Mavs, 2013 Heat and 2014 Spurs were all new-age teams that didn't run primarily ISO ball..the 2012 Heat still had traces of being an ISO team(like the 2011 team), but weren't nearly as bad as a 90s team..

Statistically, Heat haven't been in the top 10 in the NBA in ISO % since 2012, despite having 3 great ISO options..even in 2012, they were barely in the top 10..if you exclude Wade, they would fall way further..

The Clippers weren't even close to being in the top 10 in ISO %:lol..

Among the final 8 teams in this year's playoffs, only the Thunder, Pacers and Nets would statisticially be labeled as ISO-oriented teams(I don't remember Washington's numbers, though, they could be up there)..

[Malik Hairston]

90s vs 2000s title teams and their systems:
Triangle offense: Bulls (6X) in the 90s, Lakers (5X) since then
Low post big surrounded by shooters: Rockets (2X) + Spurs (1X) in the 90s, Spurs (3x) since
Scrappy, physical defensive team : Pistons in both eras plus Celtics in the 2000s

So where is this fresh, advanced style of ball that won in the 2000s?

The 2014 Spurs are not part of the 2000s, and even if they were, would be the sole exception. In reality, every title team of the 2000s played the same style of basketball that a 90s team won with.

Also, none of this makes Lebron look any better, so you might want to use a different shtick

The 2000s was full of ISO-ball, too, just not as bad as the 90s..the 2000s had a ton of skilled and athletic players, though, and the league opened up the game with rule changes to implement more skill and less NFL football-like basketball(as everybody knows)..2000s was a nice transition once it eliminated hideous basketball like the Spurs and Pistons brand..

The new era of basketball(2011+) has been a pleasure to watch..

[m>s]

Harlem knows that the glove would lock his ass down like the doctor glove locks down his butthole during a prostate exam..Harley wouldn't even be able to unclench his butthole without permission. And if he were 6 inches taller he'd do the same thing to his man crush Lebron.

[ambchang]

Um, the 2011 Mavs, 2013 Heat and 2014 Spurs were all new-age teams that didn't run primarily ISO ball..the 2012 Heat still had traces of being an ISO team(like the 2011 team), but weren't nearly as bad as a 90s team..

Statistically, Heat haven't been in the top 10 in the NBA in ISO % since 2012, despite having 3 great ISO options..even in 2012, they were barely in the top 10..if you exclude Wade, they would fall way further..

The Clippers weren't even close to being in the top 10 in ISO %:lol..

Among the final 8 teams in this year's playoffs, only the Thunder, Pacers and Nets would statisticially be labeled as ISO-oriented teams(I don't remember Washington's numbers, though, they could be up there)..

Show the numbers vs 90s and 00s teams.

Heat ISOing less than other teams could just meant the othe teams are all time ISO teams. Your case is comparing 10 teams to 90 teams. Not 10 teams against each other.

[Infinite_limit]

Ball movement = College Basketball. Which is why the NCAA Tournament is the pinnacle of Basketball

[rogues]

Fucking retard, stick to trolling

oh wait


Harlem knows that the glove would lock his ass down like the doctor glove locks down his butthole during a prostate exam..Harley wouldn't even be able to unclench his butthole without permission. And if he were 6 inches taller he'd do the same thing to his man crush Lebron.
:lol Trying too hard, tbh..

[Capt Bringdown]

GP was a selfish headcase. Extremely over-rated gimmick player. There's a reason why Seattle never made it over the hump: Gary Payton.

[Clipper Nation]

Ball movement = College Basketball. Which is why the NCAA Tournament is the pinnacle of Basketball

College basketball = white stiffs chucking threes and flopping while selfish one-and-done players run isos :lol

Literally the most hideous form of basketball known to man :lol

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I'm with Harlem on this one. 90s ball was mostly godawful basketball, the sport has evolved a lot, coaching and tactics are on a whole new level now and the rule changes pretty much make player comparisons impossible. That said, which are these great low post players from the 90s people brag about? Cause I've watched 90s ball and can't think of many. Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, then umm..? DRob wasn't, Zo wasn't, Mutombo wasn't, Ewing wasn't, Kemp wasn't, Pedoman wasn't, Smits wasn't. Divac was OK. It's true that a lot of teams relied on low post scoring because of the highly congested area and the poor shooting but it's not like there were fundamentally great low post players on every team with great moves.

[JoeTait75]

Ball movement = College Basketball. Which is why the NCAA Tournament is the pinnacle of Basketball

College basketball is absolute shit compared to 25 years ago, tbh. The UNLV and Duke teams of the late '80s and early '90s would pummel any current CBB team by 30 every night.

[ambchang]

I'm with Harlem on this one. 90s ball was mostly godawful basketball, the sport has evolved a lot, coaching and tactics are on a whole new level now and the rule changes pretty much make player comparisons impossible. That said, which are these great low post players from the 90s people brag about? Cause I've watched 90s ball and can't think of many. Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, then umm..? DRob wasn't, Zo wasn't, Mutombo wasn't, Ewing wasn't, Kemp wasn't, Pedoman wasn't, Smits wasn't. Divac was OK. It's true that a lot of teams relied on low post scoring because of the highly congested area and the poor shooting but it's not like there were fundamentally great low post players on every team with great moves.

90s basketball was difficult to watch, and much less entertaining, but to jump to the conclusion that the current crop of basketball players are simply better (in a quite transparent attempt to elevate Lebron) because of it is a huge jump in logic.

Coaching and tactics in today's NBA is more complex because the rules have evolved to allow that. The NBA was a free-flowing offense in the 70s (Knicks Blazers), and 80s (Lakers, Celtics, Mavs, Nuggets, even early day Pistons, Philly), because the rules allowed that. Bad Boys Pistons caught up with that offense through thug ball and ushered in a new era of basketball, for better or worse. The rules were slow to change, the league was happy that Jordan and Bulls were winning championships with these thug ball tactics, so they let them be. it wasn't until the Spurs won a championship in 99 that the league realized they have to some how level the playing field that they started to change the rules.

The Kings and Suns had movement offense that amounted to little more than being serious contenders, but no titles to show for it. The Sonics of the mid 90s was the same way.

As for the lost post scorer comment, Hakeem, Shaq and Barkley was 1/9 of the league's teams with great lost post scoring. Jordan was great in the post in his later days, Duncan in the late 90s, Robinson , Zo, Ewing, Kemp and Malone were better than most players in the league now in the low post, so was Brad Daughtery, Smits, Divacs and even Rony Seikaly. Even Bison Dele (Brian Williams) and Pervis Ellison had more post moves than most of the players in the league today. The best post players in the league today is probably Lebron James, Zach Randolph, and Al Jefferson, Pau Gasol, and maybe Duncan, and I'd take young Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Robinson, and Ewing over them (in terms of low post play) any day.

If these players can put up 20ppg in the highly congested low post area, they are pretty much better than anyone in today's game, by definition.

[Infinite_limit]

College basketball is absolute shit compared to 25 years ago, tbh. The UNLV and Duke teams of the late '80s and early '90s would pummel any current CBB team by 30 every night.
Similiar argument can be made about the NBA Champions from the late 80s-early 90s. The game of basketball in America has declined

[JoeTait75]

Similiar argument can be made about the NBA Champions from the late 80s-early 90s. The game of basketball in America has declined

Agreed.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Similiar argument can be made about the NBA Champions from the late 80s-early 90s. The game of basketball in America has declined

Couldn't disagree more. The game has evolved tremendously, tactically, technically and athletically.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

90s basketball...

Totally agree with most of what you've said but really think you're giving the 90s low post play too much credit. I'll give you Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq, Barkley, Daugherty and Divac but none of the others listed could be described as players with great low post moves and fundamentals. You're absolutely right that the rules defined that type of game style and it's true these players scored in the post as well but it definitely wasn't defining their game. You could choose any point from the 2000s basketball and find a handful of great low post scorers as well.

The game has evolved and changed, though, so low post scoring is just not the desired skill it has been in the past.

As for low post scoring and fundamentals prime Duncan ( 2000s ) and Gasol >>>>> Robinson, Ewing, and even Shaq, he just forced his way through the Dudleys instead of having Hakeem-like moves.

[Killakobe81]

Totally agree with most of what you've said but really think you're giving the 90s low post play too much credit. I'll give you Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq, Barkley, Daugherty and Divac but none of the others listed could be described as players with great low post moves and fundamentals. You're absolutely right that the rules defined that type of game style and it's true these players scored in the post as well but it definitely wasn't defining their game. You could choose any point from the 2000s basketball and find a handful of great low post scorers as well.

The game has evolved and changed, though, so low post scoring is just not the desired skill it has been in the past.

As for low post scoring and fundamentals prime Duncan ( 2000s ) and Gasol >>>>> Robinson, Ewing, and even Shaq, he just forced his way through the Dudleys instead of having Hakeem-like moves.

True, story.

[ambchang]

Totally agree with most of what you've said but really think you're giving the 90s low post play too much credit. I'll give you Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq, Barkley, Daugherty and Divac but none of the others listed could be described as players with great low post moves and fundamentals. You're absolutely right that the rules defined that type of game style and it's true these players scored in the post as well but it definitely wasn't defining their game. You could choose any point from the 2000s basketball and find a handful of great low post scorers as well.

The game has evolved and changed, though, so low post scoring is just not the desired skill it has been in the past.

As for low post scoring and fundamentals prime Duncan ( 2000s ) and Gasol >>>>> Robinson, Ewing, and even Shaq, he just forced his way through the Dudleys instead of having Hakeem-like moves.

You listed 6 guys that are "great" on the blocks, what else do you want?

In the 00's, we had Shaq, Duncan, Yao, maybe Webber, MVPau and some Divac.

In the 10's you really have none on that level.

I'm fine with saying the 00s had decent post players, but 90s are still better, and both are way better than 10s.

Finally, prime Duncan > everyone except Hakeem and McHale, so I will give you that. But MVPau > Shaq? I don't agree. I don't care Shaq was just bowling over people, he got the job done. I don't care if he only has one move (which is not true), he got the job done. People underates Shaq's passing off of double and triple team, and his ugly turnaround one handed push shot. Shaq was deadly within 5 feet, and was very dangerous within 10.

[Killakobe81]

I know some already mentioned, but in the 90's some of the guards were really good in the post , Payton, strickland even Mark Jackson were good post players too

[whitemamba]

Anyone who thinks its Pau> Shaq, should be banned immediately.

[Killakobe81]

Anyone who thinks its Pau> Shaq, should be banned immediately.

Post moves, only. I will agree that shaq's one or two moves the middle hook and power drop step are more deadly than ANYTHING duncan or Pau had. But you wouldnt create a better basketball video of post play showing THOSe moves ... how many 7 foot 300 pounders with quicks and strength are there in the world? Duncan and Pau in particular are great fundamentally. I only give Pau a slight edge is that duncan's relies more on flips and unorthodox shots on his follow through. Both have exquisite foot work but if you watch tape Pau's form is better than Tim on a consistent level even though duncan to me is more effective.

I dont think anyone would argue Pau is better than Shaq not even more effective just better at the fundamentals of post play. Also shaq must be one of the GOATS at "sealing" a big down low another thing tim is better than Pau at ...