NBA Retrometrics: David Robinson Underrated

[Dunc n Dave]

Did a search and didn't see this posted anywhere...

Great reminder of just how good "5-0" really was compared to his peers. That '95 series vs Hakeem may have stained his resume, but his advanced stats place him ahead of the other great centers of the 90's.


One of the more encouraging effects of the advanced-metric movement is the added nuance that can be added to basketball debates that were often settled by a basic count of championship rings — and still are, on some ESPN debate shows.

Of course, playoff performances will always matter more — to some, a lot more — when evaluating players from the same era. The pitfall of that approach, however, is that we sometimes focus on one moment more than the body of work.

Case in point: David Robinson. Sure, Robinson won an MVP award in 1994-95. Yes, the league named him one of the 50 greatest players ever. He also won a couple of rings later in his career with the San Antonio Spurs, thanks in large part to some guy named Tim Duncan.

But when Robinson’s name comes up, especially in the context of the hierarchy of NBA centers, the first topic often is one specific series: the 1995 Western Conference finals. Robinson’s Spurs took on Hakeem Olajuwon’s Houston Rockets in a matchup that quickly became an entrenched moment in NBA folklore. It also became the defining chapter in Robinson’s biography.

Read more:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/09/05/nba-retrometrics-why-david-robinson-is-underrated

[mkurts]

No doubt. The Admiral is a top 5 center in NBA history at the very least and the underrating only comes from animals who don't know any better

[spurraider21]

david robinson was otherworldly from a sheer statistical standpoint. fantasy basketball was around during his day he'd arguably be picked ahead of MJ in most drafts

[Brunodf]

Of course he is...

[Drachen]

Even "Spurs fans" underrate David, which is sad. He was a fucking beast. Watching his prime in person was fantastic. Top 5 C for sure.

[illusioNtEk]

I think David is a true role model for kids and young adults to look upon.


fuck Nikki, and justin bieber bull shit, even Joan Rivers degraded women.

[SnakeBoy]

That '95 series vs Hakeem may have stained his resume, but his advanced stats place him ahead of the other great centers of the 90's.


It sucks that DRob takes the blame for Bob Hills shitty defensive coaching in that series. The upside of that series is it led to Pop firing Hill and the rest is history. With a decent coach, that year would have been :lobt: #1.

[Phenomanul]

Even "Spurs fans" underrate David, which is sad. He was a fucking beast. Watching his prime in person was fantastic. Top 5 C for sure.

This...

Not to mention Dave put his ego aside and allowed Duncan to blossom as the team's No. 1 option...

[apalisoc_9]

Jabar
Hakeem
Shaq
David

[Obstructed_View]

It sucks that DRob takes the blame for Rodman's cheating off Robert Horry so he could go 17-40 from three point range.
Alteration submitted for your approval.

History has shown that Hakeem's teammates were far better than Robinson's were. And other than that playoff series, David dominated Hakeem head-to-head. Spurs teams from that era just weren't built for the playoffs, but that wasn't really David's fault.

[Russo21]

I've never once under-rated Robinson. He was unfreakin believable both offensively an defensively. It's safe to say no big man in todays NBA would stand a chance against prime Admiral.

[Malik Hairston]

He's definitely underrated by most fans from both a historical standpoint and a peak standpoint..the series vs. Olajuwon is what he's remembered for by many people, unfortunately..

Robinson has actually benefited greatly from the progression of advanced metrics, as he ranks very favourably in the basketball analytics world..as it continues to expand, Robinson's status with fans/new media will improve, tbh..

[mudyez]

Don't get me wrong: I love the Admiral and he probably was the player that made me a Spurs fan (and the first i got a jersey from).

Not 100% sure about top5 as Russel, Kareem and Wilt are ahead of him on any list and Shaq/Hakeem have more hardware (as THE MAN on the team) to show for.

There can be an argument about Shaq and Hakeem regarding David, but most things point to The Admiral beeing the superior regular season player, while not matching this in the playoffs.

That said: 6th best center at least, which is fantastic and it's a tragedy that he is somewhat remembered as a loser, at least from fans of other teams that only think of his series vs. Hakeem (which Rodman's fuck up was a major part of).

[Chinook]

Robinson was like a mix between Howard and what people hope Anthony Davis will become. I am too young to have really watch him play in his prime, but the highlights and old games I've seen were amazing. There's no big in the league today that comes close, although every once in a while, Blake Griffin will show a similar flash. It sucks that most of his career was essentially wasted on poor rosters.

[exstatic]

1995 - Hakeem 35p/12.5r
2005 - Amare 37p/9.8r

People don't remember Amare's outburst because our defenders actually STAYED on their shooters, unlike Rodman in 1995.

[TampaDude]

DRob is the reason I'm a Spurs fan. Beast!

[Old School 44]

David was great, but not top 5. Definitely top 10. This isn't a knock on DRob, but he was by far a better athlete than he was a basketball player.

[bigfan]

Still amazes me we have had two of the classiest guys ever in the NBA, David and Tim.

[mudyez]

Where would you rank him vs. Karl Malone and Sir Charles? I'd think they are on about the same level but at this point those two championships matter even while not beeing the main guy.

[exstatic]

Where would you rank him vs. Karl Malone and Sir Charles? I'd think they are on about the same level but at this point those two championships matter even while not beeing the main guy.

David is a center, and they're PFs.

[baseline bum]

Robinson was like a mix between Howard and what people hope Anthony Davis will become.

I have always thought of Davis as a lite version of David. E.g., guard skills, great shotblocking, agile feet, of course nowhere near the athlete David was.


It sucks that most of his career was essentially wasted on poor rosters.

Blame Red McCombs. He was too cheap to get in on the Barkley sweepstakes and then wouldn't pay Strickland in 92. Losing Strickland for nothing was such a death blow to Prime DRob's title hopes. They had one of the great young teams in the league back in 1990, but losing an all-star level point guard for nothing hurt bigtime, and they never really recovered from that until drafting Parker in 01. Then that piece of shit McCombs almost traded Robinson to New York for Ewing in a salary dump (no way Ewing was going to re-sign in San Antonio). Vinny Del Negro was McCombs' legacy he left the Spurs franchise. That faggot was supposed to replace Strickland. :lmao

[baseline bum]

Regarding Barkley, it was Terry Cummings and Willie Anderson for Charles Barkley. AFAIK, both teams agreed to it but Red McCombs vetoed the trade because he didn't want to pay Barkley.

Fucking cheap ass McCombs. Guy is a billionaire and wouldn't pay to put a good team on the floor meanwhile Holt, worth only $80 million, has stepped to the plate over and over to sign star players. Just like Drossos did in the 80s with Mike Mitchell and Artis Gilmore. Unbelievable that BJ's net worth dwarfs Holt, Drossos and yet he couldn't put the money together to build a winner.

[baseline bum]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

[Prose]

David is a model of how a man leads his life. All us guys can learn from him

[dbestpro]

Would have loved to see Robinson go against Gilmore with both in their prime. Artis is truly one of the most under rated centers of all time (prime time spent in ABA), but the most under rated Spurs center by Spur fans apecifically is Swen Nater.

[exstatic]

Would have loved to see Robinson go against Gilmore with both in their prime. Artis is truly one of the most under rated centers of all time (prime time spent in ABA), but the most under rated Spurs center by Spur fans apecifically is Swen Nater.

The ridiculous thing about Nater is how good he was, leading both the ABA and NBA in rebounding, and he never started a Division I game. He was Walton's backup at UCLA for 2 years.

[Ice009]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

That would have been sick. Did the Spurs really have a chance to get Barkley?

Also, what year did he almost trade Drob for Ewing? I'm a Spurs/Drob fan since '93, but I'm not in the US, so I couldn't watch hardly of the games or follow what was going on in the NBA that closely. Not sure if I would have continued being a Spurs fan if they traded David Robinson.

They used to show a random NBA game every week here back then. Other than that, the only way I could get NBA news is this newspaper we had over here that was dedicated to the NBA. That came out once a week too. First full NBA game I saw was Spurs Vs Magic, Drob Vs Shaq and David had over 40 points that game if I recall correctly. Been a fan since. I thought Drob was a total beast. Didn't mind Dale Ellis either, but apart from that, looking back at it now, that team was very thin in talent. I also didn't know at the time that Dale Ellis was towards the end of his career and past his prime.

Drob may not have had much of a post game, but he was still a great, great player. The overall talent he had on those teams sucked. He carried them through the regular season to win records they had no business having. I wasn't able to follow the Spurs his first few years in the NBA, but it seems that's the most talent he had around him was during those years. They really shouldn't have been cheap and should have paid to surround him with better players. I thought the owner back then didn't have much money, so I thought that was the reason they couldn't get a lot of talent to surround David with. You can't expect one man to do it all and take a bunch of scrubs to the Championship.

That's a freaking joke if he was a billionaire and I'm pissed off if that is true about him having the money to spend and he still refused to spend some to build a decent team around Drob. Why did he end up selling the team if he had that much money? I thought the team would have been sold by the previous owners because of money issues?

[Beaverfuzz]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

There would be no Timmuh on the Spurs...he'd be a Celt.

[baseline bum]

That would have been sick. Did the Spurs really have a chance to get Barkley?

timvp is pretty solid with his sources, and he said the trade was agreed to but Red nixed it because he didn't want to pay him.



Also, what year did he almost trade Drob for Ewing? I'm a Spurs/Drob fan since '93, but I'm not in the US, so I couldn't watch hardly of the games or follow what was going on in the NBA that closely. Not sure if I would have continued being a Spurs fan if they traded David Robinson.


Probably 92 or so, considering Holt bought the team in 93. There was some biography of McCombs that came out a couple of years ago where he said he came close to dumping DRob to New York for Ewing. Had he salary dumped David I surely wouldn't have continued as a Spurs fan either.



That's a freaking joke if he was a billionaire and I'm pissed off if that is true about him having the money to spend and he still refused to spend some to build a decent team around Drob. Why did he end up selling the team if he had that much money? I thought the team would have been sold by the previous owners because of money issues?

He just wanted to cash out and Holt stepped to the plate in 93 to keep the team in San Antonio. Spurs fans have had it pretty good with great owners like Drossos and Holt for the majority of the team's time in San Antonio.

[baseline bum]

There would be no Timmuh on the Spurs...he'd be a Celt.

True, but that doesn't excuse McCombs being so cheap with the team. McCombs is pretty much responsible for David Robinson's legacy being one of underachievement to the media and most fans. He broke up a monster of a team because Vinny Del Negro was way cheaper. Fuck Red.

[Das Texan]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.

Just fucking imagine Drossos owning the Spurs during the era really.

McCombs did the same shit by and large with the Vikings if I recall. Makes those pennies scream bloody murder before leaving his tight ass pocket.

[Das Texan]

True, but that doesn't excuse McCombs being so cheap with the team. McCombs is pretty much responsible for David Robinson's legacy being one of underachievement to the media and most fans. He broke up a monster of a team because Vinny Del Negro was way cheaper. Fuck Red.


I remember when they tired to sell Del Negro as this amazing replacement player.

My 13 year old brain bought into it hook, line and sinker too!

[Brunodf]

Could you imagine a Spurs starting lineup of

PG Rod Strickland
SG Dale Ellis
SF Sean Elliott
PF Charles Barkley
C David Robinson

with Antoine Carr and JR Reid off the bench?

Thanks Red.
No #1 pick in 1997 though...

[duncan_21]

I think guys like noah, tyson chandler, ben wallace, are criminally underrated especially by the casual fan. These guys are more valuable then alot of fan favorite players who put up great fantasy stats. The same goes for drob, hakeem. Both guys were elite defensive players w/elite offensive skills. I think it's criminally stupid when ppl claim michael jordan as being the best player to ever play when I think garnett, duncan, drob, ewing, prime shaq when he gave a shit about defense, and hakeem were all better players. You get your elite offense and defense from one guy, and an elite big man is so much more important than an elite perimeter defender. I won't comment on kareem and wilt, I never got to seem them play and I'm not sure how they'd stack up to modern players.

For the guy who didn't see drob in his prime. Robinson compares to prime tyson chandler, but a bit more athletic, much better hands, had a jump shot, much better passer, and he had more strength. The reason robinson had problems in the playoffs was he was constantly surrounded by guys who couldn't shoot and he really didn't have a great back to the basket game(eye test).

If you look at that 95 team they had 3 guys who could hit a 3. These are playoff stats: elliott 36.4%, rivers 37%, and del negro who only put up 1.3 3 pointers/game shot 45%. When you got Johnson/delnegro/elliott/rodman/drob starting, defenders can cheat all day off of rodman and johnson.

[ajh18]

For the guy who didn't see drob in his prime. Robinson compares to prime tyson chandler, but a bit more athletic, much better hands, had a jump shot, much better passer, and he had more strength. The reason robinson had problems in the playoffs was he was constantly surrounded by guys who couldn't shoot and he really didn't have a great back to the basket game(eye test).

I'd go a step further and say that in his prime, Robinson was like a better Dwight Howard defensively (maybe not quite as good on the boards), and a prime Amare Stoudemire on offense. He was far better than any center in the league today, and regularly won matchups with Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, and the other dominant 90's centers before his back issues really set in.

[mudyez]

David is a center, and they're PFs.

I know, but they are all basketball players aren't they?

[SpurPadre]

DRob is the reason I'm a Spurs fan. Beast!

He was the reason I became a Spurs fan, too and I'm a lifelong Californian. But once you're in, there's no going back. Spurs fan for life!
Da Admiral' s class, professionalism and sportsmanship continues to carry over the franchise to this day. For all the shit he gets for the Hakeem 95 WCF matchup, his numbers in that series were: 23.8 points 11.3 rebounds 2.7 assists 1.5 steals and 2.1 blocks. Good numbers on a team he had to carry on his back. Hakeem was simply phenomenal and took his game to another level that postseason and had better teammates around him than 5-0. And it's not like we got swept in that series like Shaq did in the Finals vs. Hakeem.

[Snaq O'Meal]

He was the reason I became a Spurs fan, too and I'm a lifelong Californian. But once you're in, there's no going back. Spurs fan for life!
Da Admiral' s class, professionalism and sportsmanship continues to carry over the franchise to this day. For all the shit he gets for the Hakeem 95 WCF matchup, his numbers in that series were: 23.8 points 11.3 rebounds 2.7 assists 1.5 steals and 2.1 blocks. Good numbers on a team he had to carry on his back. Hakeem was simply phenomenal and took his game to another level that postseason and had better teammates around him than 5-0. And it's not like we got swept in that series like Shaq did in the Finals vs. Hakeem.

Let's put this into perspective... David put up those numbers while he was double-teamed and triple-teamed, AND he had to burn energy guarding Hakeem on the defensive end without much help from his own team mates.

[Ice009]

Let's put this into perspective... David put up those numbers while he was double-teamed and triple-teamed, AND he had to burn energy guarding Hakeem on the defensive end without much help from his own team mates.

I never got to watch any of the games. Just highlights, but I've read what you've said numerous times before over the years. Did you watch all the games? Did David really have to guard Hakeem one on one for most of the series, and did the Rockets really give Hakeem that much help to guard Drob? Was Drob doubled for a lot/most of the game or just in the 4th quarters? How did David do when he was matched up one on one?

[SpurPadre]

Let's put this into perspective... David put up those numbers while he was double-teamed and triple-teamed, AND he had to burn energy guarding Hakeem on the defensive end without much help from his own team mates.

Exactly.

[SpurPadre]

I never got to watch any of the games. Just highlights, but I've read what you've said numerous times before over the years. Did you watch all the games? Did David really have to guard Hakeem one on one for most of the series, and did the Rockets really give Hakeem that much help to guard Drob? Was Drob doubled for a lot/most of the game or just in the 4th quarters? How did David do when he was matched up one on one?

It wasn't like Hakeem was helpless to guard Da Admiral one on one but he was by far the only player the Rockets were worried about so the team sold out on d to give him as little space as possible. Admiral had to force alot of tough shots and averaged a high 4.5 turnovers a game in the series. Hakeem averaged 1.33 steals in the series which shows he had some help in forcing those turnovers.

[ambchang]

A center needs guards to spread the floor so that they can operate down low. If perimeter players can't nail open shots, the spacing will not be there, and a center will suffocate.

Pick out who are the two worst players in this line up:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry west
Magic Johnson
Byron Scott
Norm Nixon
Andrew Toney
Penny Hardaway
Vernon maxwell
Sam cassell
Kobe Bryant
Tony Parker
Manu ginobili
Avery Johnson
Vinny del negro

[scanry]

David would've had a ring in the MJ era had McCombs spent the money he donated to UT Austin on the Spurs tbh. How much did he donate BTW?

[FromWayDowntown]

The 1995 West Finals was the most important series that David Robinson played in before Tim Duncan arrived in San Antonio and history will forever discount David, unfortunately, because his team came up short and his direct rival played one of the handful of the very best playoff series ever. When you only really get one chance to be the man on that sort of stage and then you get upstaged by the all-time great who plays opposite you, it will count against you. There are plenty of reasons the Spurs lost that series, but their inability to do anything to impede Hakeem was the primary culprit in that loss.

Having lived through it all, I think David's apex wasn't as good as Hakeem's and David's career isn't really comparable to Shaq's in terms of achievements or statistics (though I will say that David was a substantially better defender than Shaq). Ultimately, how you rank those guys is a fairly close call with ample basis to go in just about any direction. In his generation, I'd personally put Hakeem and Shaq before David in any ranking, but I don't think there's anyone else from that era -- and few players in history -- that I'd put in front of Mr. Robinson otherwise. David's teams were basically regular season overachievers who had fatal flaws that were readily exposed in a playoff series by good coaches and teams.

I have always wondered what might have happened if the group that played Portland down to the wire in 1990 (Robinson, Cummings, Elliott, Anderson, Strickland, coached by Larry Brown) could have stayed together the way the Duncan-Parker-Ginobili Spurs essentially have. That team, in 1990, was arguably a bad pass away from going to the Finals; they would have lost to the Pistons, but the perception of that group would have likely been very different had they gotten over that hump and the willingness to keep them together might have increased. Ultimately, Larry's personality would have never allowed him to stay long enough to see that to fruition and I don't think splitting them up caused the breakdowns of Terry Cummings (age) and Willie Anderson (injury). But it would have been fun to have watched the whole thing.

[Maddog]

My thoughts- not that they worth anything- and will re-iterate what a lot have already said.

The Admiral always kind of got the short end of the stick till the end. The 89-90 Spurs where loaded with young talent, but imploded due to injuries (Anderson, Cummings) age (Cummings) bad behavior (Maxwell,Anderson and Strickland). Larry Brown compounded things and ownership didn't help. I still think back to that day when the Spurs where reduced to starting the season with Tark coaching and Del negro starting at point. Just 3 years after being loaded with potential (Willie Anderson was an incredible talent)

It wasn't until Lucas that anyone really understood that DRob wasn't a traditional back to the basket offensive center. To thin in trunk and blossomed when Lucas moved him out. And it wasn't till Pop that anyone utilized him properly defensively. This was a guy quick enough to switch on small forwards. Robinson was made for the type of defenses now played- zone based systems.

The 95 series with Houston- I watched it all (TV). A few thoughts- as said earlier in retrospect the Spurs didn't have a lot of talent- Avery Johnson wasn't the Avery of 99 and Del Negro versus Ellie or Drexler?
Add in Rodman doing whatever he wanted to do. Sure Hakeem outplayed Dave but not to the extent everyone thinks. Dave was double teamed. The Spurs couldn't double team because Rodman wouldn't stay with his man. Despite this it was 4-2 with the Spurs losing game 1 due to missed free throws and Horry's wide open 3 at the end.
I'm biased, but clearly he was underrated and under appreciated outside SA

[baseline bum]

Despite this it was 4-2 with the Spurs losing game 1 due to missed free throws and Horry's wide open 3 at the end.
I'm biased, but clearly he was underrated and under appreciated outside SA

As much as I wish I could forget that shot, I still remember clear as it was yesterday that Rob's game winner in Game 1 was from just outside the left elbow when Rodman left him wide open. :pctoss

[ambchang]

Shawn Kemp went 22/14/2 on the Rockets in the 96 series vs. 18/10/2 for Hakeem, but nobody would ever say Kemp > Hakeem.

The Sonics matched up Hakeem well, and used a swarming defense and quickness to drastically reduce Hakeem's effectiveness. It's all about matchups at the end of the day.

Robinson, on the other hand, had many series where he underperformed against expectations, because there were MANY teams that matched up well with the Spurs. It was widely known the Spurs had no outside shooting, and the best way to beat them was to swarm the middle and force the perimeter players to beat you. Outside of Robinson, Elliott was the only person who can consistently create his own shot, which means that opposing teams can double/triple Robinson off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, or Rodman. When a player is constantly doubled and tripled, he underperforms. The trick is to have your teammates make up for your loss in productivity by nailing wide open shots.

There hasn't been one single player who did not suffer from a productivity standpoint when the opposition decides to suffocate you. Even the great michael Jordan had a letdown series against the sonics in 96, but nobody cares because the bulls won.

[lefty]

A center needs guards to spread the floor so that they can operate down low. If perimeter players can't nail open shots, the spacing will not be there, and a center will suffocate.

Pick out who are the two worst players in this line up:
Oscar Robertson
Jerry west
Magic Johnson
Byron Scott
Norm Nixon
Andrew Toney
Penny Hardaway
Vernon maxwell
Sam cassell
Kobe Bryant
Tony Parker
Manu ginobili
Avery Johnson
Vinny del negro

[lefty]

Shawn Kemp went 22/14/2 on the Rockets in the 96 series vs. 18/10/2 for Hakeem, but nobody would ever say Kemp > Hakeem.

The Sonics matched up Hakeem well, and used a swarming defense and quickness to drastically reduce Hakeem's effectiveness. It's all about matchups at the end of the day.

Robinson, on the other hand, had many series where he underperformed against expectations, because there were MANY teams that matched up well with the Spurs. It was widely known the Spurs had no outside shooting, and the best way to beat them was to swarm the middle and force the perimeter players to beat you. Outside of Robinson, Elliott was the only person who can consistently create his own shot, which means that opposing teams can double/triple Robinson off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, or Rodman. When a player is constantly doubled and tripled, he underperforms. The trick is to have your teammates make up for your loss in productivity by nailing wide open shots.

There hasn't been one single player who did not suffer from a productivity standpoint when the opposition decides to suffocate you. Even the great michael Jordan had a letdown series against the sonics in 96, but nobody cares because the bulls won.
http://media.tumblr.com/33a00d5d0fa1500b4bc5d5ee69ffa345/tumblr_inline_mrju5set5m1rw4dyd.gif


In 1995, Hakeem had an army of clutch 3 points shooters

Those mofos made you pay

[Chinook]

So had Robinson had the Medium Three (as they are now) in 95, is anything different?

[spurraider21]

So had Robinson had the Medium Three (as they are now) in 95, is anything different?
we are light tim duncan and have considerably less titles

[Chinook]

we are light tim duncan and have considerably less titles

Not necessarily. The Medium Three could have disappeared just before Dave and Sean got hurt.

[spurraider21]

Not necessarily. The Medium Three could have disappeared just before Dave and Sean got hurt.
and then reincarnated in time for the 2014 run

[Drachen]

So had Robinson had the Medium Three (as they are now) in 95, is anything different?

Are you asking if the Spurs would have won if they had kawhi, green, and splitter in 95? Yes

[baseline bum]

Are you asking if the Spurs would have won if they had kawhi, green, and splitter in 95? Yes

What if they had Barkley and Strickland and no Del Negro?

[ambchang]

Robinson is not really an easy guy to build around. He's 7'1", great defender (both 1-1 and help), has a face up game like a SF, runs the floor like a gazelle, he's the type of player you would need to surround with a specific set of player to win the championship.

You can anchor your defense around him, put two decent guards around him (some one like Hornacek level), put a rugged rebounder/interior scorer (someone like Cummings or Buck Williams), then a SF who can slash some bit (Elliott actually works well), get a decent coach, put a decent bench around him, and you have your self a winner. In fact, you switch Robinson with Pedophile on the Jazz, and they would have won a title or two in the mid 90s.

[duncan_21]

Robinson is not really an easy guy to build around. He's 7'1", great defender (both 1-1 and help), has a face up game like a SF, runs the floor like a gazelle, he's the type of player you would need to surround with a specific set of player to win the championship.

You can anchor your defense around him, put two decent guards around him (some one like Hornacek level), put a rugged rebounder/interior scorer (someone like Cummings or Buck Williams), then a SF who can slash some bit (Elliott actually works well), get a decent coach, put a decent bench around him, and you have your self a winner. In fact, you switch Robinson with Pedophile on the Jazz, and they would have won a title or two in the mid 90s.

What? Robinson is one of the easiest guys to build around. Especially if you already have elliott and rodman. All they needed was a pg and sg who can defend/shoot and voila you probably win a few titles.

[Beaverfuzz]

True, but that doesn't excuse McCombs being so cheap with the team. McCombs is pretty much responsible for David Robinson's legacy being one of underachievement to the media and most fans. He broke up a monster of a team because Vinny Del Negro was way cheaper. Fuck Red.

That and Rod Strickland sucked ass, plus he couldn't tell that Jerome Kersey of 1990 wasn't on his team until 1992.

[ambchang]

What? Robinson is one of the easiest guys to build around. Especially if you already have elliott and rodman. All they needed was a pg and sg who can defend/shoot and voila you probably win a few titles.

I disagree. Robinson is too unconventional a player. I always see parallel between him and dirk. While they are obviously different players, their unique skill set requires a unique group of players to compliment them.

Rodman and Robinson didn't and wouldn't work. Having a non offensive big like rodman would allow teams to easily double off of rodman onto Robinson, and two bigs doubling Robinson while allowing the opposition to stay home off of the shooters is death.

A jazz like team with Robinson instead of pedophile would have been ideal. A sonics team with Robinson in place of Shawn kemp would work very well too. I can see Robinson replacing Barkley on the suns to work too, but there should be a dirty work guy to make this ideal. Robinson in place of Ewing would potentially too, but there are concerns about spacing in that arrangement.

[Ice009]

Shawn Kemp went 22/14/2 on the Rockets in the 96 series vs. 18/10/2 for Hakeem, but nobody would ever say Kemp > Hakeem.

The Sonics matched up Hakeem well, and used a swarming defense and quickness to drastically reduce Hakeem's effectiveness. It's all about matchups at the end of the day.

Robinson, on the other hand, had many series where he underperformed against expectations, because there were MANY teams that matched up well with the Spurs. It was widely known the Spurs had no outside shooting, and the best way to beat them was to swarm the middle and force the perimeter players to beat you. Outside of Robinson, Elliott was the only person who can consistently create his own shot, which means that opposing teams can double/triple Robinson off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, or Rodman. When a player is constantly doubled and tripled, he underperforms. The trick is to have your teammates make up for your loss in productivity by nailing wide open shots.

There hasn't been one single player who did not suffer from a productivity standpoint when the opposition decides to suffocate you. Even the great michael Jordan had a letdown series against the sonics in 96, but nobody cares because the bulls won.

Interesting that Kemp had those numbers against the Rockets. I knew he was good that season, didn't know he had that good of a run though. He really was starting to become a very good player until he pissed it all away a few seasons later.

I've read a few times where people have said that he was arguably the best player on the floor in the '96 finals, which is one of the rare times Jordan wasn't clearly head and shoulders above everyone else in a finals series. How did that happen? Did the Sonics try and take him out of the series by forcing the other Bulls players beat them, or did Jordan just have a bad series?

[hitmantb]

Interesting that Kemp had those numbers against the Rockets. I knew he was good that season, didn't know he had that good of a run though. He really was starting to become a very good player until he pissed it all away a few seasons later.

I've read a few times where people have said that he was arguably the best player on the floor in the '96 finals, which is one of the rare times Jordan wasn't clearly head and shoulders above everyone else in a finals series. How did that happen? Did the Sonics try and take him out of the series by forcing the other Bulls players beat them, or did Jordan just have a bad series?

Gary Payton was probably the greatest MJ defender ever. Held MJ to his worst shooting performance in the finals, the glove was no joke.

On topic, Spurs was clearly overachieving in the regular seasons during the 90's, and David simply didn't get enough help in the playoffs from shooters.

It would be super interesting to see what if Tim and David's times with the Spurs were reversed, would David enjoy anywhere near Tim's success? Does he want it as much as Tim at age 38, who already won 4 titles yet willed himself back to the finals once more to take out LeBron? I always thought David was the more gifted player, but Tim's understanding of the game and obsession (Kobe is the only other comparable player) was on a whole different level.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

David Robinson had to carry the Spurs on his back single-handed before Duncan arrived. In the playoffs Robinson got double and triple teamed and no one else on the Spurs could step up. In a half-court slow-down grinding playoff series Robinson's effectiveness was mitigated as the opposing teams just keyed on him. The playoffs would be painful to watch because David was stuck on a freaking island.

David would have been All-World in LA or New York, or even Houston back then. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem all had much better teammates surrounding them than David did when David was the main attraction in San Antonio. Is David number 6 based on that? If I'm choosing teams with all these guys in their primes it's a pretty tough call for 1 through 6.

[ambchang]

The other thing is if Robinson played in today's game, he'd be a monster. It would be all high post jumpers, driving the lane, kick to open jumper on offense, then mobile defender who can defend the paint and help out on the perimeter.

Robinson would be the best player in today's game along with Lebron.

[mkurts]

David Robinson had to carry the Spurs on his back single-handed before Duncan arrived. In the playoffs Robinson got double and triple teamed and no one else on the Spurs could step up. In a half-court slow-down grinding playoff series Robinson's effectiveness was mitigated as the opposing teams just keyed on him. The playoffs would be painful to watch because David was stuck on a freaking island.

David would have been All-World in LA or New York, or even Houston back then. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq and Hakeem all had much better teammates surrounding them than David did when David was the main attraction in San Antonio. Is David number 6 based on that? If I'm choosing teams with all these guys in their primes it's a pretty tough call for 1 through 6.

Exactly ... yet douchebags sprout crap about how Shaq was better. Hakeem had Drexler and Barkley yet dumbasses conveniently forget about that part. Spurs were truly blessed with Robinson, he lifted the team out of lottery contention and mentored Duncan to what he is now

[thiste]

Jabar
Hakeem
Shaq
David

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-x8BZDBBjR20/T1ETBaPzwKI/AAAAAAAAvPg/OULOu_SlxsI/s640/Wilt+Chamberlain%27s+50-Year+Anniversary+of+100+Points+Game+vs.+FBI+Cyber+ Security.jpg

[Jenks]

Did David really have to guard Hakeem one on one for most of the seriesYes

did the Rockets really give Hakeem that much help to guard Drob?
http://giant.gfycat.com/RecklessJadedGrunion.gif

[barbacoataco]

I lived through that era. The 90's Spurs were a hard team to watch because they always fizzled out at the end of the year. On the one hand I woul agree that Robinson is underrated today. He was a great player with incredible physical gifts. At 7 ft he ran the floor with tremendous speed and was very agile for his size. He was a world class shit blocker and defender. He never won a championship in the mid 90's because of their crappy backcourt. Just imagine exchanging Ginobili for Del Negro on the 1995 team. That one move might win them the championship.

On the other hand, as much as I respect him as a player and person, I do think there is a little truth to the notion that DRob was not really clutch. He just didn't have that killer instinct. Also, maybe more importantly, he never developed a real "go-to" shot that he could rely on on tough games down the stretch. Whereas Duncan had several low post moves that he can get off even under the most intense defensive pressure, Robinson did not have those skills. He always used his length talent and quickness to score, but that doesn't work as well in the playoffs.

That being said, if he had better help he still could have won a championship.

[Obstructed_View]

It would be super interesting to see what if Tim and David's times with the Spurs were reversed, would David enjoy anywhere near Tim's success? Does he want it as much as Tim at age 38, who already won 4 titles yet willed himself back to the finals once more to take out LeBron? I always thought David was the more gifted player, but Tim's understanding of the game and obsession (Kobe is the only other comparable player) was on a whole different level.

Interesting point.

The way I saw it, David was a guy who, for what a spectacular player he was, didn't really care all that much about basketball early in his career. He had so many other interests and talents that he wasn't driven in a way that a guy like Jordan might have been. I saw some of the same things from Timmy when he was at Wake, and I really think he could have gone in that same direction without guidance. By the time Timmy arrived, David was beginning to see the end of his career looming, and had really started to prepare and compete in ways he hadn't earlier on. I think that perspective and influence from David was critical for Timmy.

In addition, the older vets that came and went on Spurs teams prior to the arrival of Manu and Tony really helped set the attitude of the team.

[daslicer]

Interesting point.
I saw some of the same things from Timmy when he was at Wake, and I really think he could have gone in that same direction without guidance. By the time Timmy arrived, David was beginning to see the end of his career looming, and had really started to prepare and compete in ways he hadn't earlier on. I think that perspective and influence from David was critical for Timmy.

In addition, the older vets that came and went on Spurs teams prior to the arrival of Manu and Tony really helped set the attitude of the team.

I disagree with your comments about Tim's approach to the game when he was at Wake. I grew up in NC so I remember watching Tim during the Wake Forest years. Tim was even a fierce competitor back then considering he lead Wake Forest to 3 straight ACC championship appearances. I would say WF was the building blocks that taught Tim not only the fundamentals but also how to win with less talent against stacked teams. I remember how hated Tim was down here because he always owned UNC and Duke which was the equivalent to the Lakers. I also remember after every time WF got eliminated in the NCAA tournament that Tim took it real personal that he cried. I love Drob but lets not spin it he never had the same type of fire Duncan had. He was important in Duncan's development in the sense that he prepared him for the fierce competition of NBA by going at him 1 on 1 everyday in practice.

[hitmantb]

Also, David had a story book ending because Tim willed himself to deliver a title that Spurs had no business of winning with the most dominant individual performance ever, took out prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers with a roster that wasn't much better than what David had to work with in 1995. Pop wasn't Pop yet and just played Tim 40 minutes a game. David retired immediately and got out at the top happily thereafter, left Tim to suffer a grueling 0.4 second defeat next year against the fabulous four Lakers.

Tim has the same perfect story book ending this year, and he chose to come back for the love of the game. David would have retired for sure if he somehow willed himself to come back and beat prime LeBron after game 6 2013, heck, he wouldn't be able to will himself back at all.

As players they are equal in my book, but Tim just wants it more.

When it comes to desire to win, David = TMac, Tim = Kobe.

[exstatic]

Also, David had a story book ending because Tim willed himself to deliver a title that Spurs had no business of winning with the most dominant individual performance ever, took out prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers with a roster that wasn't much better than what David had to work with in 1995. Pop wasn't Pop yet and just played Tim 40 minutes a game. David retired immediately and got out at the top happily thereafter, left Tim to suffer a grueling 0.4 second defeat next year against the fabulous four Lakers.

Tim has the same perfect story book ending this year, and he chose to come back for the love of the game. David would have retired for sure if he somehow willed himself to come back and beat prime LeBron after game 6 2013, heck, he wouldn't be able to will himself back at all.

As players they are equal in my book, but Tim just wants it more.

When it comes to desire to win, David = TMac, Tim = Kobe.

David retired because he could no longer play. He was in way worse physical shape with his back at 37 than Tim is currently at 38.

[ambchang]

Also, David had a story book ending because Tim willed himself to deliver a title that Spurs had no business of winning with the most dominant individual performance ever, took out prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers with a roster that wasn't much better than what David had to work with in 1995. Pop wasn't Pop yet and just played Tim 40 minutes a game. David retired immediately and got out at the top happily thereafter, left Tim to suffer a grueling 0.4 second defeat next year against the fabulous four Lakers.

Tim has the same perfect story book ending this year, and he chose to come back for the love of the game. David would have retired for sure if he somehow willed himself to come back and beat prime LeBron after game 6 2013, heck, he wouldn't be able to will himself back at all.

As players they are equal in my book, but Tim just wants it more.

When it comes to desire to win, David = TMac, Tim = Kobe.

Great example of why Robinson is underrated by fans. When you can't quantify, talk about an individuals will to win in a team sport.

You know, Jordan didn't have that will to win until the 90s.

Kobe just like to have his will to win come with a dominant low post player.

Hakeem didn't really like to win in the late 80s/early 90s, but suddenly wanted it more than anybody when he was surrounded by three point shooters.

Robinson was just playing ball for shits and giggles, he just like to guard shaq one on one with a bad back because he didn't play for the tee am, it's just fun to know how far your body will go before you get paralyzed and have to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair.

Robinson gave up the reigns to Duncan, not because he wanted to win, but to test out his theory that idiots will be calling him soft for the rest of his life if he did so.

Robinson was all about himself that's why he never demanded a trade when it's clear the spurs management had no interest in building a championship team in the early 90s. That's why he came back early in a lost season so that he can break his legs. That's why he played so hard he injured his back carrying that shit stain of a roster to contention year after year.

[Obstructed_View]

I disagree with your comments about Tim's approach to the game when he was at Wake. I grew up in NC so I remember watching Tim during the Wake Forest years. Tim was even a fierce competitor back then considering he lead Wake Forest to 3 straight ACC championship appearances. I would say WF was the building blocks that taught Tim not only the fundamentals but also how to win with less talent against stacked teams. I remember how hated Tim was down here because he always owned UNC and Duke which was the equivalent to the Lakers. I also remember after every time WF got eliminated in the NCAA tournament that Tim took it real personal that he cried. I love Drob but lets not spin it he never had the same type of fire Duncan had. He was important in Duncan's development in the sense that he prepared him for the fierce competition of NBA by going at him 1 on 1 everyday in practice.
I'm not sure I agree with most of your post, but the bolded part above is flat-out ridiculous. Watch the exchange with Joe Smith and Kevin Garnett in 1999. Duncan got slapped in the back of the head by Garnett after Robinson shoved him and Timmy didn't do anything about it. You can say Duncan had arrived with the same competitive will that he's always had, but let's not say Robinson didn't have any fire, particularly later in his career.

After playing his entire career with subpar teammates, and getting a reprieve from the ping pong balls, Robinson was driven to win, doing so on a failing back, trying to cement a hall-of-fame legacy long dogged by early playoff exits and critics using the word "soft". For years he pretended not to care what was said about the Spurs' playoff failures, but clearly it sunk in.

I'm not from North Carolina, but I watched every Spurs game for most of Robinson's career, and I saw the change in him, culminating with a 13 point, 17 board finale that was overshadowed by Timmy's gaudy stat line above it in the box score. Robinson got what he wanted, and was content to witness the greatness of Tim Duncan from an expensive seat near midcourt, his version of sailing into the sunset.

Great competitor that Duncan is, I'd counter your claim by saying Timmy has never had the kind of fire Robinson played with at the end of his career, because Timmy's simply never had as much to prove as David did.

[DocDoc]

It would be interesting what position DRob would play if he was a rookie today.

giant SF? Super fast PF? He wasn't ever really a traditional center anyway

[barbacoataco]

He was a center. He defended centers like Shaq and Hakeem, and he never had another 7 ft next to him till Duncan. He was just faster than any other centers.

[Obstructed_View]

It would be interesting what position DRob would play if he was a rookie today.

giant SF? Super fast PF? He wasn't ever really a traditional center anyway

He was a traditional center in every way, but he could handle the ball and cut like a guard.

[barbacoataco]

He never had a go to move at the low post that he could fall back on. As great as he was, that would be his weakness.

[Snaq O'Meal]

He never had a go to move at the low post that he could fall back on. As great as he was, that would be his weakness.

A go-to move can still be rendered ineffective against double and triple teams.

And how many of these guys with go-to moves have scored 71 points in a single game against double team coverage? Or registered a quadruple double?

A prime, multifaceted Robinson in today's Spurs setup will be absolutely devastating!

[barbacoataco]

I'm not saying he wasn't a scoring machine. I had season tickets 90-95 so I know what kind of player he was. I was just pointing out his weakness and why he is one notch below Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq and Duncan as a low post player. But he was a great great player who could have won championships if he had better support. Vinny Del Negro and mid 90's Avery were a pathetic backcourt for a team trying to win a championship.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

David's skillset would be far more suited to today's rules and fast paced NBA, not the 90s grind, just like some of today's players would have fared much better in the 90s era but untimately he was a good enough 1st option on a championship team, he just had a very incompetent FO behind him and was loyal enough not to bolt.

[spurraider21]

i dont think david had problems scoring tbh

[senorglory]

What's also underrated is how tremendously awesome Olajuwon was that playoffs, and that series. Dave played great, notwithstanding that Hakeem transformed into a being of pure basketball light.

[ambchang]

Robinson a game couldn't really be defined by position. His defense is classic nba center defense, but his offense is a hybrid of many. He has the face up game of a power forward, the ability to drive and run the break like a small forward, but he takes up the low post like a power forward and center. That's one of the reasons why he's so hard to build around, the front Office just don't know what kind of players would fit with him.

In today's game, Robinson would be goat. His first step would devastate any big man trying to guard him, and he can shoot over smaller defenders.

[baseline bum]

David retired because he could no longer play. He was in way worse physical shape with his back at 37 than Tim is currently at 38.

People forget that Robinson missed the first two games of the LA series in 02 because he couldn't feel his fucking legs. If that's not a serious injury I don't know what is. And yet he still came back to bang with Shaq the rest of the series.

[mathbzh]

I don't like ranking players. I believe it is just too subjective.

But I don't think David is underrated. He is making anybody's top 10 centers list (rank somewhere between 5 and 8).

Sure he didn't have that much help, but this is also a reason for his inflated statistics.
When people look at Duncan statistics, they are probably not that impressed. It sounds fair to look at his playoffs performances, team success and rings. Because if you don't... He is not really better than Kevin Garnett.
It is the same for Ginobili and Parker who never had the statistics they could have. But when you count the rings...

David should just be prood of his career... And who care if he is ranked a shade behind a couple of guys.

[ambchang]

Duncan have more PPG, RPG, BPG, and FG%. Garnett is better in APG, SPG, and FT%, all while Duncan played less MPG under a slower paced system.

Comparing Duncan's per 36 and per 100 possession stats to Garnett, it's quite clear Duncan > Garnett, even strictly from a statistical stand point.

Then you can look at advanced stats like WS, PER, TS%, eFG%, REB%, Drtg (tied for Ortg), and BLK%, and Duncan pretty much trumps Garnett in every single one (except AST% and TOV%).

Then you look at the playoff numbers.

People wants to make a case for Garnett saying that he is close to Duncan. Yes, he is close, but he's still worse, in almost every significant big man stat.

[mathbzh]

Duncan have more PPG, RPG, BPG, and FG%. Garnett is better in APG, SPG, and FT%, all while Duncan played less MPG under a slower paced system.

Comparing Duncan's per 36 and per 100 possession stats to Garnett, it's quite clear Duncan > Garnett, even strictly from a statistical stand point.

Then you can look at advanced stats like WS, PER, TS%, eFG%, REB%, Drtg (tied for Ortg), and BLK%, and Duncan pretty much trumps Garnett in every single one (except AST% and TOV%).

Then you look at the playoff numbers.

People wants to make a case for Garnett saying that he is close to Duncan. Yes, he is close, but he's still worse, in almost every significant big man stat.
I know that. But the common perception is that they are about the same. The difference in how people rank them comes from team success, not from advanced statistics (I am not talking about hardcore fans or stats geeks).

[ambchang]

I know that. But the common perception is that they are about the same. The difference in how people rank them comes from team success, not from advanced statistics (I am not talking about hardcore fans or stats geeks).

But then that's directly tied to why Robinson was underrated, because people do not directly look at stats, advanced stats, and most importantly, circumstances.

It's like the general population is too stupid to take more than 1 number into account, and only has to ability to look at # of rings, which is just retarded because it's evaluating an individual player using a largely team-based statistic.

[spurraider21]

david was a center and would be a center today. he would defend opposing centers and would be defended by opposing centers. most PF's today wouldn't really have enough length to disrupt his offensive game. the only PF's i could think of from this era that would match up with D-Rob would be guys like Garnett and Anthony Davis. often times the big-man positions get blended anyway to the point where we just refer to a PF or a C as "a big" without necessarily designating them.

while robinson might be physically fit to defend 4's, his legendary weakside defensive would be much more useful if he was defending guys closer to the rim

[duncan_21]

I disagree. Robinson is too unconventional a player. I always see parallel between him and dirk. While they are obviously different players, their unique skill set requires a unique group of players to compliment them.

Rodman and Robinson didn't and wouldn't work. Having a non offensive big like rodman would allow teams to easily double off of rodman onto Robinson, and two bigs doubling Robinson while allowing the opposition to stay home off of the shooters is death.

A jazz like team with Robinson instead of pedophile would have been ideal. A sonics team with Robinson in place of Shawn kemp would work very well too. I can see Robinson replacing Barkley on the suns to work too, but there should be a dirty work guy to make this ideal. Robinson in place of Ewing would potentially too, but there are concerns about spacing in that arrangement.

I'm beginning to think you're a bad bball fan. Another guy who would be easy to build around is dirk. What are you smoking? Look what both did w/pretty limited talent surrounding them, that in itself makes your opinion invalid. Tell me this what type of player and this would be in any era is always in short supply?

[AaronY]

I think David is a true role model for kids and young adults to look upon.


fuck Nikki, and justin bieber bull shit, even Joan Rivers degraded women.
Gr8 comparison bro.

[Chinook]

I'm beginning to think you're a bad bball fan. Another guy who would be easy to build around is dirk. What are you smoking? Look what both did w/pretty limited talent surrounding them, that in itself makes your opinion invalid. Tell me this what type of player and this would be in any era is always in short supply?

You seem to be confusing greatness with being easy to build a team around. They aren't the same at all. There's a reason why it took Jordan so long to win while Duncan's been playing for titles since his second year, and it's not because Tim is better.

Robinson was a lot like Lebron James. Great player, but a really hard piece to use as a foundation.

[Obstructed_View]

There's a reason why it took Jordan so long to win while Duncan's been playing for titles since his second year, and it's not because Tim is better.

And it's not because of anything you're implying, either. The '99 Jazz, the second best team in the league that year, would have been about a sixth seed in the Eastern conference in '91.

[ambchang]

I'm beginning to think you're a bad bball fan. Another guy who would be easy to build around is dirk. What are you smoking? Look what both did w/pretty limited talent surrounding them, that in itself makes your opinion invalid. Tell me this what type of player and this would be in any era is always in short supply?

Since you are a great bball fan, you should have seen that
A) Robinson never won as the best player on his team, and Duncan is a once in a gerneration player
B) dirk required a highly intelligent group of players who played phenomenally well together to win. If it's so easy to build around dirk, why did it take an owner who was willing to win at all cost a dozen years to build around him? Tell me who could have replaced chandler, Kidd, Marion and terry. The type of spacing of that Mavs offense was pure genius from Carlisle and I'm surprised a superior basketball intellect like yourself couldn't understand that. I am even more surprised that someone as good as a basketball fan as you failed to recognize that coaches of carlisles Salinger don't really grow on trees.

Also, try to recognize regular season and post season are two different types of ball. An issue with a team gets exploited in the playoffs, but less so in the regular season. But then again, I'm sure you knew that already.

[Chinook]

And it's not because of anything you're implying, either. The '99 Jazz, the second best team in the league that year, would have been about a sixth seed in the Eastern conference in '91.

Eh. I was still crapping my diapers back then, so I won't argue too much. But the narrative that I've heard was that the Bulls needed to get the right players around Michael before they could get over the hump. It wasn't as simple as Jordan being the greatest, so of course Chicago was going to win six titles.

[duncan_21]

You seem to be confusing greatness with being easy to build a team around. They aren't the same at all. There's a reason why it took Jordan so long to win while Duncan's been playing for titles since his second year, and it's not because Tim is better.

Robinson was a lot like Lebron James. Great player, but a really hard piece to use as a foundation.

No I'm not. Big guys who are elite 2 way players by definition are easier to build around. One of the main keys for having a championship contender is getting a big who can protect the rim. W/jordan you needed to find at least one of those guys along w/another shot creator and some shooters. W/robinson you got your offense and defense. Here's drobs win totals w/sub par supporting casts: 56, 55, 47, 49, 55, 62, 59 and that's in a tough western conference. That's really impressive. I'm sorry dude another relatively easy guy to build around is james. So who is easy to build a team around if james and robinson are a hard guys to build a championship around?

[Chinook]

No I'm not. Big guys who are elite 2 way players by definition are easier to build around. One of the main keys for having a championship contender is getting a big who can protect the rim. W/jordan you needed to find at least one of those guys along w/another shot creator and some shooters. W/robinson you got your offense and defense. Here's drobs win totals w/sub par supporting casts: 56, 55, 47, 49, 55, 62, 59 and that's in a tough western conference. That's really impressive. I'm sorry dude another relatively easy guy to build around is james. So who is easy to build a team around if james and robinson are a hard guys to build a championship around?

Yeah, that's an oversimplification. Post bigs are easy to build around, because you know what type of players you need to surround them with (shooters, essentially). Face-up bigs are much harder to build around, because it's not quite clear who would compliment them. Shooters help, but because the big is operating away from the basket, there's no "inside" to an inside-out game. But if you park traditional big next to them, then you mess up spacing for the face-up big to do his thing. Robinson's defense wasn't the issue, save for the fact that the Spurs didn't have another legit seven-footer to throw at Dream.

James is extremely hard to build a title team around, which is why he needs so many stars around him to win. His teams have to rely on essentially being able to win their match-ups. It's good enough for him to just have shooters or defensive bigs. He needed an all-NBA guard cut from the same cloth as James was and a stretch-five who is elite at defending the PnR and can carry a team on both sides of the floor on any given night. Not to mention that James essentially plays PG for his teams, so there's little room for a play-making PG next to him.

I don't see the point in listing regular-season win totals. That doesn't mean much when we're talking about building championship-caliber rosters. The Robinson Spurs were pretenders because they couldn't deal with elite teams in playoff series, where match-ups become key. They are not the first glass-cannon team, either. Look at the Nash-era Suns or current Thunder for other examples.

[barbacoataco]

Question -- 1995 Spurs -- If you replace vinny del negro with 2005 era Manu ginobili, would the Spurs have won the championship?

[ambchang]

No I'm not. Big guys who are elite 2 way players by definition are easier to build around. One of the main keys for having a championship contender is getting a big who can protect the rim. W/jordan you needed to find at least one of those guys along w/another shot creator and some shooters. W/robinson you got your offense and defense. Here's drobs win totals w/sub par supporting casts: 56, 55, 47, 49, 55, 62, 59 and that's in a tough western conference. That's really impressive. I'm sorry dude another relatively easy guy to build around is james. So who is easy to build a team around if james and robinson are a hard guys to build a championship around?

And that's precisely why the spurs under achieved greatly year after year with Robinson leading them, because the spurs management knew that most fans were about as smart as you and thought regular season success = playoff success. So management went all cheap and surrounded robinson with cast offs from other teams and refused to fill in the obvious holes the roster had and got Robinson as a scape goat

What part of the regular season and the playoffs are totally differnt do you not understand?

The 80s Mavs won tons of regular season games and had nothing to show for it, ditto the 00 suns or the 90s Knicks because those teams had huge issues with their rosters that were exploited by the opposition in the playoffs.

[ambchang]

Question -- 1995 Spurs -- If you replace vinny del negro with 2005 era Manu ginobili, would the Spurs have won the championship?

2005 Manu wouldn't be able to perform like 2005 Manu because the paint would be totally closed. The 1995 spurs just do no have enough shooters to open up the lane, and rodmans man can basically drift from him and double whoever he wants.

[baseline bum]

And it's not because of anything you're implying, either. The '99 Jazz, the second best team in the league that year, would have been about a sixth seed in the Eastern conference in '91.

No way the 99 Jazz were the second best team that year. Portland smoked them, and LA would have too. I'm not even sure they'd beat New York.

[Phenomanul]

2005 Manu wouldn't be able to perform like 2005 Manu because the paint would be totally closed. The 1995 spurs just do no have enough shooters to open up the lane, and rodmans man can basically drift from him and double whoever he wants.

That somewhat understates Manu's outside game... it's because he could shoot the three that people couldn't play him with one particular defensive scheme.

The answer is not simple, but replacing Vinny with 2005 Manu would have been sufficient to have changed the dynamics of the '95 Spurs-Rockets series... enough to have tilted it the Spurs favor...

2005 Manu was a defensive pest. He had a way of getting under people's skin, getting a critical steal, forcing a critical turnover, etc... That alone would have wreaked havoc on their guards (Smith / Drexler / Cassell) and not allowed them to get into rhythm...

Last but not least, that series was closer than people remember it. After Houston took both games IN San Antonio (including the sabotaged Rodman game) the Spurs went back and took both games in Houston... That was by no means a simple thing to do. Game 5 was a blowout and San Antonio came within a few plays of forcing a Game 7. And that despite Hakeem playing otherworldly basketball...

[Obstructed_View]

Eh. I was still crapping my diapers back then, so I won't argue too much. But the narrative that I've heard was that the Bulls needed to get the right players around Michael before they could get over the hump. It wasn't as simple as Jordan being the greatest, so of course Chicago was going to win six titles.

Well that part is true. Jordan certainly couldn't do it by himself, great as he was, and couldn't have done it without Pippen and the role players he ended up with. Duncan's rookie-year teammates were better than almost any of Jordan's.

[Obstructed_View]

No way the 99 Jazz were the second best team that year. Portland smoked them, and LA would have too. I'm not even sure they'd beat New York.

By record, they were. The point remains: None of the teams you mentioned would have made a dent in the East playoffs in '91.

[Mark in Austin]

The whole idea of who would perform better if Tim and Dave switched eras is just silly. Duncan would have left if he was surrounded with the shit teammates and coaches cheap ass Red McCombs put around Robinson. Prime Robinson with Parker, Ginobili, etc plus no other centers worth a shit in the league AND no hand checking? Jesus Christ he would be a fucking monster.

[baseline bum]

By record, they were. The point remains: None of the teams you mentioned would have made a dent in the East playoffs in '91.

I don't think the East playoffs were that good in 91. Mark Price was out for most of the year, so no Cavs in the playoffs. New York was below .500 and didn't get that big infusion of talent until the next year. Detroit was out of gas after 3 Finals trips. Bird was washed up and Boston's 56 wins were fool's gold. Philly was spiraling out of control.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think the East playoffs were that good in 91. Mark Price was out for most of the year, so no Cavs in the playoffs. New York was below .500 and didn't get that big infusion of talent until the next year. Detroit was out of gas after 3 Finals trips. Bird was washed up and Boston's 56 wins were fool's gold. Philly was spiraling out of control.
Before we persist in this discussion that you're determined to have, are you trying to suggest that Chinook was correct in saying that the reason it only took Duncan two years to win and it took Jordan seven is because Jordan was indeed hard to build around? Or do you agree with me that Jordan was drafted by a legitimate 27-win team in a massively-deep eastern conference and Duncan was drafted by a 50-win team that had a bad year in an open window full of aging superstars and young teams? You might make the case that Jordan took advantage of that, at least in his first title year. Not so much the next two, as Portland and Phoenix were really fucking good teams.

[baseline bum]

Before we persist in this discussion that you're determined to have, are you trying to suggest that Chinook was correct in saying that the reason it only took Duncan two years to win and it took Jordan seven is because Jordan was indeed hard to build around? Or do you agree with me that Jordan was drafted by a legitimate 27-win team in a massively-deep eastern conference and Duncan was drafted by a 50-win team that had a bad year in an open window full of aging superstars and young teams? You might make the case that Jordan took advantage of that, at least in his first title year. Not so much the next two, as Portland and Phoenix were really fucking good teams.


I agree on Jordan, just not on 1991. 1992-98 the East was pretty brutal, just not 91.

[ambchang]

That somewhat understates Manu's outside game... it's because he could shoot the three that people couldn't play him with one particular defensive scheme.

The answer is not simple, but replacing Vinny with 2005 Manu would have been sufficient to have changed the dynamics of the '95 Spurs-Rockets series... enough to have tilted it the Spurs favor...

2005 Manu was a defensive pest. He had a way of getting under people's skin, getting a critical steal, forcing a critical turnover, etc... That alone would have wreaked havoc on their guards (Smith / Drexler / Cassell) and not allowed them to get into rhythm...

Last but not least, that series was closer than people remember it. After Houston took both games IN San Antonio (including the sabotaged Rodman game) the Spurs went back and took both games in Houston... That was by no means a simple thing to do. Game 5 was a blowout and San Antonio came within a few plays of forcing a Game 7. And that despite Hakeem playing otherworldly basketball...

Fair enough, but manu, as good as an outside shooter he is, is best used as a driver and creator. With he lanes packed his effectiveness would be decreased. I am not satin they won't win a championship, I'm saying 2005 Manu will not be 2005 Manu on the 1995 spurs.

[barbacoataco]

I think Ginobili brings a fierceness and competitive fire that the mid 90-s Spurs really lacked. Basketball isn't all X's and O's, it is also team chemistry and attitude. Both Robinson and Sean seemed to kind of shrink away from the pressure. But I think a player like Ginobili would have inspired them and given them confidence.

[exstatic]

Fair enough, but manu, as good as an outside shooter he is, is best used as a driver and creator. With he lanes packed his effectiveness would be decreased. I am not satin they won't win a championship, I'm saying 2005 Manu will not be 2005 Manu on the 1995 spurs.

A Manu/pre-injury Robinson pick and roll would be a holy terror.

[Mark in Austin]

A Manu/pre-injury Robinson pick and roll would be a holy terror.

But I'm not sure a 2005 Manu on the 1995 Spurs would find all the cracks we're used to him finding when he is dropped into the handcheck era.

[barbacoataco]

But I'm not sure a 2005 Manu on the 1995 Spurs would find all the cracks we're used to him finding when he is dropped into the handcheck era.

The 2005 Pistons were a physical defense and Manu still scored.

[Mark in Austin]

The 2005 Pistons were a physical defense and Manu still scored.

There's a huge difference in physicality between the pre and post hand check rule eras.

[Phenomanul]

There's a huge difference in physicality between the pre and post hand check rule eras.

And yet those Piston teams allowed a beastly <89 PPG for the season... one of the best marks in the post-shot clock era... and without the benefit of utilizing perimeter-based hand-checking (though I would argue in the same breath that Ben Wallace routinely got away with hand-checking in the paint - particularly against Duncan).

Their defense was quick and proficient, and while still very physical THAT wasn't the focus of their effectiveness... Getting physical with prime-Manu (circa 2004-2005) was usually not a good idea as that only made him angrier and more willing to take over the game...

The more I think about it... especially considering the huge leap in court vision over anybody on that 1995 Spurs squad (Robinson would've had a dunk party) and his trademark tenacity, there's no way the Spurs would have faltered that year if 2005 Manu was on that squad infusing his competitive fire into that series...

[Phenomanul]

Let's not forget we're talking about who he would've replaced...

Scrub Vinny...

[Obstructed_View]

I agree on Jordan, just not on 1991. 1992-98 the East was pretty brutal, just not 91.

That's fair. Okay, I'll give you that 1991 was relatively a down year, but the six years prior and the six years following were amazingly deep. Even with the down year, I think all the teams I mentioned would have smoked most everyone in the league in '99, particularly the Knicks.

[Obstructed_View]

Let's not forget we're talking about who he would've replaced...

Scrub Vinny...

Manu + addition by subtraction = title.