John McCain Goes Off The Deep end

[Nbadan]

McCain sounds like presidential hopeful
A.E. Araiza / Arizona Daily Star


U.S. Sen. John McCain knows why he wants to be president. He isn't running for the job - officially. That won't happen, if it happens at all, until after next year's midterm elections

<SNIP>

On Tuesday, though, he sided with the president on two issues that have made headlines recently: teaching intelligent design in schools and Cindy Sheehan, the grieving mother who has come to personify the anti-war movement.

McCain told the Star that, like Bush, he believes "all points of view" should be available to students studying the origins of mankind.

The theory of intelligent design says life is too complex to have developed through evolution, and that a higher power must have had a hand in guiding it.

<SNIP>

AZ Starnet (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/politics/90069)

Can we stop calling McCain a Moderate now? I wonder if by 'all points of view' McCain means teaching theories on Creation other than the Christian view.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh man, so disapointed in him. I wonder if he really believes what he's saying or if he's playing politics. I have a feeling it is the latter.

[SWC Bonfire]

What the hell? McCain says that their may be a higher power guiding the development of life and y'all act like your new puppy got run over by a steamroller.

FYI: most people (and voters) believe this to some extent.

Addendum: Do you think an atheist/agnostic will actually get elected in this country? I mean, there are still people handling snakes in the Ozarks.

[jochhejaam]

Oh man, so disapointed in him. I wonder if he really believes what he's saying or if he's playing politics. I have a feeling it is the latter.


"So disappointed." You mean you finally have the evidence that has eluded evoultionists in presenting it as fact rather than the far-fetched, full-of-holes theory it is?

Disappointed that he doesn't find the humor in bashing Christianity like you or because like most Americans he sees through the very trasparent facade Sindy has attempted to foist off as remorse for her son? Both?

Guess what? To further disappoint you McCain doesn't think aborting 55,000,000 babies annually is"trivial shit".


John McCain : We must begin a dialogue and a discussion on the issue of abortion. Both pro-life & pro-choice people believe very strongly that we need to eliminate abortion. I and my wife, Cindy, are proud adoptive parents. We need to encourage adoption in America. We need to improve foster care dramatically. We can work together. We can have respectful disagreements on specific issues, and we can work together on this one.
Source: Republican Debate at Dartmouth College Oct 29, 1999

[MannyIsGod]

Uh oh, Joch wants to argue evolution now? Throw in the clever new spelling of a woman's name. Wow. We've been down this path in this forum before.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, MFD Part Deux!

:lmao

Actually, that would be some shit if Joch was really MFD coming back. The likeness is striking.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

"So disappointed." You mean you finally have the evidence that has eluded evoultionists in presenting it as fact rather than the far-fetched, full-of-holes theory it is?



Mr. Bold, if you want to talk facts (the bolded variety) then i'd dare (even defy) you to present and support anything you've ever said in this forum as fact (the bolded kind)


BTW we both know thats not what manny meant so why ask it
you seem a little perturbed about christianity bashing....almost....angry (the bolded type of anger)

[boutons]

"their may be a higher power guiding the development of life"

ID is nothing but a wedge for the fairy tale of New Earth creationism.

The Christian Taliban has the Repug party's balls in their hands, and the Repugs hearts and minds follow. Now we know why they're all a bunch of balless, dickless jackasses.

[jochhejaam]

Uh oh, Joch wants to argue evolution now? Throw in the clever new spelling of a woman's name. Wow. We've been down this path in this forum before.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, MFD Part Deux!

:lmao

Actually, that would be some shit if Joch was really MFD coming back. The likeness is striking.

Thanks for noticing the new spelling. I figured if I didn't throw in some Scripture you'd take a closer look at the content. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Thanks for noticing the new spelling. I figured if I didn't throw in some Scripture you'd take a closer look at the content. :lol
Well, you're more than likely right.

[Clandestino]

who is mfd?

[Ocotillo]

McCain has always been a conservative. He just isn't a toadie that falls in line with whatever the administration says. He tossed away a lot of the credibility he had at the Republican convention my kissing the ring of the man who trashed him and his family all in the name of keeping his ambition alive for '08.

It's beginning to look like ambition is beating out principle with him these days.

[Extra Stout]

"So disappointed." You mean you finally have the evidence that has eluded evoultionists in presenting it as fact rather than the far-fetched, full-of-holes theory it is?

Disappointed that he doesn't find the humor in bashing Christianity like you or because like most Americans he sees through the very trasparent facade Sindy has attempted to foist off as remorse for her son? Both?

Guess what? To further disappoint you McCain doesn't think aborting 55,000,000 babies annually is"trivial shit".
If evolutionary theory is "far-fetched" and "full of holes," then so are germ theory and the theory of gravity. Evolution has more empirical support than either of those two.

So good Christians need to question whether antibiotics and antiviral drugs really are the answer to disease, especially when the Bible makes clear that many ailments are caused by demon possession or inappropriate practice of the Eucharist.

Also, the theory of gravity has many holes. While scientists can explain mathematically how much gravity there is, they cannot explain where the force comes from, despite fiddling with "quantum" "subatomic" "theories" for over a century. Meanwhile, Colossians 1:17 and Hebrews 1:3, when interpreted properly, clearly describe the action of Jesus holding everything together on the Earth. But do they teach that in Physics class? No!

[Jelly]

To my recollection they didn't teach either evolution or creationism when I was in school in the 70s and 80s. And I graduated knowing a hell of a lot more than kids seem to know today. It seems to me that kids today aren't even graduating with a solid understanding of biology, physics, chemistry, geography, history and so many other important subjects. Honestly, when I talk to high school kids today, I'm astounded at what they don't know.

Creationism can be taught in Sunday school and Evolution can be taught in college. I think the whole debate is a waste of time and energy and is seriously putting the cart before the horse.

[exstatic]

John McCain is a straight shooter. He thinks he's doing all the right things for a set up for 2008. He's backing Bush to the hilt, not realizing that the conservative wing of the GOP doesn't like him at ALL, and that Dubyah will ONLY back him if Condi or Jeb doesn't run. They're going to fuck him without lube, and he was instrumental in keeping peace in the GOP and winning a VERY close election in 2004, after some decidedly ugly campaigning in 2000.

[MannyIsGod]

If anything, the creationism/intelligent design/evolution debate is a win for the people who want to eventually privatize schools. Then parents can just decide where to send their kids based on what is taught.

[Jelly]

i CANNOT FUCKING believe that two "ISSUES" are

1. intelligent design


2. cindy sheehan

You forgot the #1 issue in America today...that missing blond chick.

[jochhejaam]

If anything, the creationism/intelligent design/evolution debate is a win for the people who want to eventually privatize schools. Then parents can just decide where to send their kids based on what is taught.

It's heading in that direction. My wife had taught in the private sector (Christian Acadamies) for the last 16 years and just took a job with a Charter School this year. Charter Schools are booming because many of the public schools in our state have gone to pot!
It's a morality based curriculum but because of the separation of Church and State rule there's no mention of God/Christ, etc.

[The Ressurrected One]

Intelligent Design <> Creationism.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You forgot the #1 issue in America today...that missing blond chick.


touche Jelly

touche

[Extra Stout]

Intelligent Design <> Creationism.
I agree.

ID is a legitimate philosophical field of study. It's not science, though. And given that you get a lot of people with a theological axe to grind, there is a lot of fallacious thinking through which one must sift.

However, Creationism, aka Creation Science, is a load of crap. Only the stupid and the insane believe that garbage. They maintain that the entire earth was created out of nothing in 144 hours just 6000 years ago, and that all geological formations were formed in a 40-day global flood, and that before that, there was an ocean in the sky surrounding the globe and the sky was pink and people rode around on dinosaurs and lived for 900 years and were ruled by creatures that were the offspring of humans and angels in a highly advanced society exceeding even what we have today. Oh yeah, did I mention the sky was pink?

It's almost as bad as Scientology.

[boutons]

"Intelligent Design <> Creationism."

Politically, strategically, ID is a wedge enabling Creationism.

ie, once the silliness called ID is accepted as "scientific theory", then the gates are open for Creationism. aka, the relentless dumbing down of America in the name of "religion".

The political objective of the IDers/Creationist is to create confusion, not clarity, so that their unscientific POV will gain, in the fog they produce, credence as "science" by the tourists who can't think for themselves and/or who are still "impressionable" (intellectually recruitable, not matter what the chronological age).

[SWC Bonfire]

aka, the relentless dumbing down of America in the name of "religion".

I don't think that religion is the cause for the dumbing down of America; I would propose that families that take their kids to religious services as a family are more likely to be involved with their children in general and care more about their educational progress.

[JoeChalupa]

I'd vote for John McCain.

[SWC Bonfire]

I'd vote for John McCain.

So would a lot of people, including fiscally conservative republicans such as myself.

[valluco]

what happened to Economics, Foreign Policy, Domestic Policy, Nuclear Weapons, the Environment, State vs. Federal powers, Taxes, Education, etc.?
Exactly. What about healthcare, social security, immagration laws and law enforcement?

[smeagol]

"Intelligent Design <> Creationism."

Politically, strategically, ID is a wedge enabling Creationism.

ie, once the silliness called ID is accepted as "scientific theory", then the gates are open for Creationism. aka, the relentless dumbing down of America in the name of "religion".

The political objective of the IDers/Creationist is to create confusion, not clarity, so that their unscientific POV will gain, in the fog they produce, credence as "science" by the tourists who can't think for themselves and/or who are still "impressionable" (intellectually recruitable, not matter what the chronological age).
Nothing funnier than a pissed off atheist :lol

[boutons]

"I don't think that religion is the cause for the dumbing down of America"

religin fine, even commendable, but politicized, in-your-face, dishonest religion injected into the politics isn't.

[boutons]

"Nothing funnier than a pissed off atheist"

Nothing more pathetic than right-winger erroneously labeling believers as atheists. :)

[SWC Bonfire]

"I don't think that religion is the cause for the dumbing down of America"

religin fine, even commendable, but politicized, in-your-face, dishonest religion injected into the politics isn't.

So, the only way that religion dumbs down people is that it makes them conservative (because all religious people are either conservative or burned at the stake), and everyone knows that conservatives are mindless robots that parrot the ideas of the wealthy elite and surely were told what to do?

I sure am glad you are smart, intelligent and not a conservative, or you'd be a Bible-totin' idiot!

[Nbadan]

Oh, GMAFB. Religion doesn't dumb down people, but ID does because it runs so contrary to proven science. The latest gambit by the ID crowd is calling gravity the unseen hand of God holding everyone and everything together - what a joke!

[Extra Stout]

Oh, GMAFB. Religion doesn't dumb down people, but ID does because it runs so contrary to proven science. The latest gambit by the ID crowd is calling gravity the unseen hand of God holding everyone and everything together - what a joke!OK, if they're really doing that, then parody is dead.

*Sigh* See, if done right, ID could just be an outcrop of what pretty much every Christian believes --> that however the physical universe might work, God created it all, and you can appreciate him by studying it. The whole concept of "general revelation" means that man can glean some knowledge of who God is just by observing the universe.

The problem is that you have these idiot cracker monkeys who have this axe to grind. They come up with what to them is some kind of "deep thought" but which really pales in comparison to what an 18-year-old smoking pot comes up with. And because they're too ignorant and too lazy to find out what other people have studied and discovered, they figure that their "ideas" are just this huge bellweather that nobody else has ever thought of.

And look, I do some of this stuff too, you know, reading the Bible and figuring out how this passage and that applies to life, and how a certain word may have a deeper meaning if you look at the context in the original language. But I don't call it science. I call it religious devotion.

And when you have people trying to sell religious devotion as science in the public schools, then I don't care how well-meaning their motives are, they're liars and frauds.

[boutons]

"the only way that religion dumbs down people is that it makes them conservative"

That may be one way, thanks for your perspective.

But when "religion" that tells people under a religious spell that science, one of the crowning achievements of humanity, is full of shit because Genesis is literally true, that's dumbing down. Oh, don't forget to send in your check. "Religion" and God need LOTS of money.

[Extra Stout]

"the only way that religion dumbs down people is that it makes them conservative"

That may be one way, thanks for your perspective.

But when "religion" that tells people under a religious spell that science, one of the crowning achievements of humanity, is full of shit because Genesis is literally true, that's dumbing down. Oh, don't forget to send in your check. "Religion" and God need LOTS of money.What cracks me up is that "literalists" come and say, well, they don't take the Psalms literally because they're obviously poetry, while Genesis 1 is obviously historical prose.

Seriously. As if "and there was evening, and there was morning, the xxxth day," is something other than a poetic refrain.

Homework assignment for Christians: draw a table, 2 columns and 3 rows. Label the cells in the first column 1, 2, and 3 going down. Label the cells in the second column 4, 5, and 6 going down. Read Genesis 1 and write notes in each cell corresponding to what God created on that particular day.

See if you notice anything in common with the cells in each row, and the cells in each column.

Voila, you're just learned something about parallel structure in Hebrew poetry. There might even be some symbolism in there!

This argument for literal Genesis has nothing to do with real textual criticism. It just has a life of its own because of the lack of education in the evangelical American church.

[Nbadan]

http://www.cagle.com/working/050824/arial.gif

[The Ressurrected One]

http://www.cagle.com/working/050824/arial.gif
Again, Intelligent Design <> Creationism

If all weebles are wibbles and some wibbles are wobbles, are all weebles wobbles? Creationism is an ill-informed and religiously-constrained interpretation of Intelligent Design

So, tell me, Nbadan...where did matter come from? Darwin left that out.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Again, Intelligent Design <> Creationism

If all weebles are wibbles and some wibbles are wobbles, are all weebles wobbles? Creationism is an ill-informed and religiously-constrained interpretation of Intelligent Design

So, tell me, Nbadan...where did matter come from? Darwin left that out.


darwin was a naturalist not a physicist

TRO do u mean intelligent design is equal to creationism, or what? im still a little confused

but for the most part i do agree with your post

[The Ressurrected One]

darwin was a naturalist not a physicist

TRO do u mean intelligent design is equal to creationism, or what? im still a little confused
No, Creationism attempts to explain the "apparent" intelligent design of biologic organisms by ascribing it to a Omnipotent God. Intelligent Design, attempts to apply the scientific method to the "apparent" intelligent design of biologic organisms and discover what could account for the intricate construction of the gene or the living cell, etc...

Darwin didn't attempt to explain where life came from, just what it did once it existed. And, even then, his natural selection theory is full of holes. Many species of animals and plants seem to have just popped into existence, without a lineage, long after the primordial soup dried up.


but for the most part i do agree with your post

That's a first.

By the way, I believe in God. I also believe there is a common thread that binds Intelligent Design, Creationism, and Evolution into a cogent truth of how we came to be.

Creationism, to me, can be described as an unsophisticated, oversimplified attempt at grasping an intelligent creator and that creator's design. That's not a value statement on religion. But, certainly, Intelligent Design theory holds that the creator need not be omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient...any more than a computer programmer is those things with the product of their labors.

[mookie2001]

Darwin was scoffed in his day
kind of like whottt

[boutons]

"where did matter come from? Darwin left that out."

:lol

Darwinian evolution applies to living things. Matter isn't living so the origin of matter is not addressed by evolutionary theory. sucks, huh?

[The Ressurrected One]

"where did matter come from? Darwin left that out."

:lol

Darwinian evolution applies to living things. Matter isn't living so the origin of matter is not addressed by evolutionary theory. sucks, huh?
Living organisms are constructed of matter. Surely you're not suggesting we're not over 70% H2O or that we don't contain iron, potassium, magnesium, etc... WE are carbon-based organisms that, at our most elemental level are just as inanimate as a rock. What makes us different is the animation of amino acids and the double-helix of the DNA molecule. Which, by the way, are fascinating examples of repetitive and near-perfect design.

Where did DNA come from?

So, are you suggesting that inanimate matter and animate organisms originated separately and, if so, which came first?

[The Ressurrected One]

Interesting Article for those who can read (http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2177&program=CSC%20-%20Scientific%20Research%20and%20Scholarship%20-%20Science)

[Spam]

It is also boring...for those who can read.

[The Ressurrected One]

It is also boring...for those who can read.
Sorry if you decide to remain ill-informed simply because you can't stay focused for 30 minutes.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

No, Creationism attempts to explain the "apparent" intelligent design of biologic organisms by ascribing it to a Omnipotent God. Intelligent Design, attempts to apply the scientific method to the "apparent" intelligent design of biologic organisms and discover what could account for the intricate construction of the gene or the living cell, etc...

Darwin didn't attempt to explain where life came from, just what it did once it existed. And, even then, his natural selection theory is full of holes. Many species of animals and plants seem to have just popped into existence, without a lineage, long after the primordial soup dried up.



That's a first.

By the way, I believe in God. I also believe there is a common thread that binds Intelligent Design, Creationism, and Evolution into a cogent truth of how we came to be.

Creationism, to me, can be described as an unsophisticated, oversimplified attempt at grasping an intelligent creator and that creator's design. That's not a value statement on religion. But, certainly, Intelligent Design theory holds that the creator need not be omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient...any more than a computer programmer is those things with the product of their labors.

:tu i agree...dont think i'm always out to talk shit, if you say something i agree with i'll tell you
im not ever going to say i think Bush should be on rushmore, but what you say makes sense

BTW darwin's theory was in fact full of holes, and some have been filled since then
he didn't even have a method of selection, he had no idea of alleles, genes, etc, he had no unit of replication....if only he had known of Gregor Mendel's work he probably would have made a better theory
he did try though, he revised "on the origin of species" like 10 times

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Darwin was scoffed in his day
kind of like whottt



-LOL-

[Spam]

Sorry if you decide to remain ill-informed simply because you can't stay focused for 30 minutes.

No, it is just that I can find better things to focus on for 30 minutes.

Reading that just doesn't do anything for me but if it gets your rocks off go for it.

[The Ressurrected One]

No, it is just that I can find better things to focus on for 30 minutes.

Reading that just doesn't do anything for me but if it gets your rocks off go for it.
Well, if you can resist the urge to equate Intelligent Design to Creationism, by not informing yourself, fine by me...

[mookie2001]

John McCain is a fucking fake ass pussy
the dude sat there during interviews during oct/nov 04 and would scoff bush, make really good points, just talk foul mess about Bush
then say he supported Bush and his party and say how him and bush are such good friends
hes seen the party go neo (outlandishly outlandish spending, big gov, the theft of our constitutional rights) and he doesnt do shit

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yes, one time he was on the Daily Show with Jon Stuart

Jon Stuart did the Jon Stuart thing, ribbed bush and asked mccain questions....McCain made jokes right back to Stuart alluding to how stupid, incompetent Bush was...then at the end of the interview Jon Stuart was like "so who are you voting for in the primary?" and McCain instantly replied "Double You"

Mookie and I were like wha wha ahwwh aw hw whaaaaaaaat??

You can imagine our looks of consternation.

[mookie2001]

yeah and he did like 2 more interviews like that

[tsb2000]

I live in Arizona, and people on both ends of the political spectrum are looking at McCain and saying "wtf"? This only means one thing. He's running for president, even if he won't admit it now. He's studying diligently with the Hillary Clinton "remake your image toward the middle in less than 4 years" home study course. Of course, McCain is reading it backwards, but it's the same final exam. :)

[Extra Stout]

No, Creationism attempts to explain the "apparent" intelligent design of biologic organisms by ascribing it to a Omnipotent God. Intelligent Design, attempts to apply the scientific method to the "apparent" intelligent design of biologic organisms and discover what could account for the intricate construction of the gene or the living cell, etc...I agree with all of this except the part about ID using the scientific method. What experiment could one do to prove/disprove an ID theory?


Darwin didn't attempt to explain where life came from, just what it did once it existed. And, even then, his natural selection theory is full of holes. Many species of animals and plants seem to have just popped into existence, without a lineage, long after the primordial soup dried up.Of course, Darwin's theories <> modern evolutionary biology. A lot more has been discovered and a lot of holes have been filled in the last 120 years.





Creationism, to me, can be described as an unsophisticated, oversimplified attempt at grasping an intelligent creator and that creator's design. That's not a value statement on religion. But, certainly, Intelligent Design theory holds that the creator need not be omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient...any more than a computer programmer is those things with the product of their labors.Your definition of creationism above just said that an omnipotent God is responsible for Creation. That's not unsophisticated in and of itself. Almost every monotheist, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim, believes that.

Where creationism becomes unsophisticated is when people take a narrow interpretation of their colloquial translation of an ancient holy text and use that to explain natural phenomena against all objective evidence.