What is Green's ceiling?

[KL2]

On offense and defense? He's a very streaky player on both sides of the ball. This past season he looked like he improved his mid jumper when being ran off the 3pt line, his finishing in transition and at the rim, he also added some floaters.

Defensively he was still solid, against Durant, Ellis, Batum, etc. still a bit foul prone and can make quite a few mistakes. One of the best transition defenders in the NBA, one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA.



How much better do you guys think he can get, is he close to his ceiling? 27 years old, 5 years pro.

[PÒÓCH]

He seems to freeze under pressure, not a guy you want handling the ball at the end of the game. If he hasn't peaked yet he's about to. His saving grace is Pop's constant pushing and utlilization of his talent. I just don't see him getting that much better. I hope I'm wrong.

[Raven]

#1 sg in the league on both ends.

[ginobilized]

Pop will keep raising the roof on Danny Green. I don't think it's a linear kinda thing. Role players are groomed for winning and minimizing mistakes. Pop is in his head 24/7 I'd think.

Can he get better? Yes
Will he? He better or his days are numbered

[Namundy]

I think he's reached it and that's not a bad thing. Deadeye 3 point shooter who defends well. I don't think he will ever become an ISO player. Very valuable role player who will continue to thrive in an offense that emphasizes continuous motion.

[spurraider21]

lovechild of michael jordan, ray allen, manu, magic, pippen, and rodman

[benefactor]

Will he? He better or his days are numbered
:lol

I think he's reached it and that's not a bad thing. Deadeye 3 point shooter who defends well. I don't think he will ever become an ISO player. Very valuable role player who will continue to thrive in an offense that emphasizes continuous motion.
The goods.

[Chinook]

lovechild of michael jordan, ray allen, manu, magic, pippen, and rodman

Already has more titles than Jordan did at the same age. Not to mention Danny got one at UNC to. I don't think it's unrealistic for Green to surpass Michael.

[Dex]

Record for Most Three-Points Made in a Finals series - 2013 NBA Finals

[phxspurfan]

Trenton Hassell

[Chinook]

I think he's reached it and that's not a bad thing. Deadeye 3 point shooter who defends well. I don't think he will ever become an ISO player. Very valuable role player who will continue to thrive in an offense that emphasizes continuous motion.

He can still get better in his role, though. Learning to shoot better off screens would make him much more valuable, and his defensive awareness needs work. I could see post-prime Green being better than current Green simply because he becomes smarter and more steady.

[Chinook]

I think I pointed this out already in another thread, but Green actually plays better without the intact Big Three than he does with them. He has more game in him than he shows.

[Tuddy]

He made a number of plays in Game 3 off the dribble (floaters and even a couple where he got all the way to the rim) when guys closed out on him too hard which makes me think he might be able to do it more often.

[Splits]

Given his role in the Spurs' system, I'm not sure how much further he can rise. He's the prototypical NBA 3&D guy. His advanced metrics this playoff run are through the roof. Led the team in DRtg and eFG%, 2nd to Tiago in TS%. Shot a ridiculous 48% from range and was just behind Tim and Kawhi in DWS, all while being 9th (9th!) on the team in usage%.

[itzsoweezee]

Like you said, one of the best transition defenders in the NBA, one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA. On top of that, he might be the best three point shooter in the league. Not much more you can ask from a guy playing his position on the Spurs, other than stop with the mental mistakes. A better off-the-dribble game would be nice, but the Spurs are still dominant without it.

[daslicer]

I would say at his best he reminds me of John Starks except taller. Just like Starks he has a quick release and is very streaky from 3 either he's hot or cold.

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

He's probably not gonna add anything to his game at this point. I think his ceiling would basically be a more consistent version of himself and I guess he could become an even better defender. Also he could make more layups.

[exstatic]

I would say at his best he reminds me of John Starks except taller. Just like Starks he has a quick release and is very streaky from 3 either he's hot or cold.
John Starks career 3G% 34
Ray Allen's career 3G% 40
Klay Thompson's career 3G% 41
Danny Green's career 3G% 42

[Prime Time]

I won't say he's reached his ceiling quite yet, but he's damn close. I think the only thing we might see is some small tweaks.. Basically, an improved mid-range game, smarter defense and perhaps he'll be more active without the ball. At least, those are the main improvements we've seen him make in the past 2 seasons or so.

Remember when he use to fall for every pump-fake? Or when the only shot he could make was a spot-up three.

[ceds]

Are you putting DG In the same shooting class as Allen & the spash bros?

[exstatic]

Are you putting DG In the same shooting class as Allen & the spash bros?

Danny has about a thousand attempts. Klay has about 1300. Danny's percentage is higher. I'm not putting Danny in Klay's class, Danny is. Allen, of course, has done it over a longer period of time, but the fact remains: Danny Green isn't just a good 3 point shooter, he's elite.

Let me throw some other numbers at you
Klay .398
Curry .393
Allen .401
Green .448

Career PLAYOFF 3G%

[ceds]

I see Danny as an elite (perhaps the leagues best? ) set shot / catch and shoot 3 point shooter.

Those other guys though, particularly curry and ray in his prime hit that average with a majority of shots being taken off the dribble and with allot more defensive attention.

[exstatic]

I see Danny as an elite (perhaps the leagues best? ) set shot / catch and shoot 3 point shooter.

Those other guys though, particularly curry and ray in his prime hit that average with a majority of shots being taken off the dribble and with allot more defensive attention.

Danny dribbles into a lot of his 3 pointers, they're just in transition. He's one of the best at that, too, and that's not an easy shot at all, with your momentum taking you towards the basket.

[ceds]

No that's called a transition 3 and yes Danny has that in his repertoire although its one of the easiest shots in basketball.

I was talking about shooting or creating a three off the dribble (Patty mills)

[exstatic]

No that's called a transition 3 and yes Danny has that in his repertoire although its one of the easiest shots in basketball.

I was talking about shooting or creating a three off the dribble (Patty mills)

If you think a PUJIT 3 is an easy shot, you don't understand basketball at all.

[Chinook]

No that's called a transition 3 and yes Danny has that in his repertoire although its one of the easiest shots in basketball.

I was talking about shooting or creating a three off the dribble (Patty mills)

There's more than one type of transition three. Most of the time, the term refers to a set shot from a flanker on the wing or from a trailer at the top of the key. That's a far cry from a pull-up three on the break, which is not an easy shot at all.

Anyway, Green can make non-transition threes off the dribble as well, but he rarely gets opportunities, since he's not a handler like Mills is.

[ceds]

No its clear your the one who doesn't understand basketball since you :

a) Describe a transition 3 when trying to give an example of how Danny can create 3's off the dribble :lol

b) Thinks that a transition 3 is a difficult NBA shot


Fact is that Danny Green cannot create three's off the dribble.
On the spurs these type of shots come from Patty and occasionally Manu.

They are also considered as a more difficult attempt then a catch and shoot or set shot 3.

[G-Dawgg]

Starks and Danny Green is not a good comparison at all. They are very different players...

[Chinook]

No its clear your the one who doesn't understand basketball since you :

a) Describe a transition 3 when trying to give an example of how Danny can create 3's off the dribble :lol

b) Thinks that a transition 3 is a difficult NBA shot


Fact is that Danny Green cannot create three's off the dribble.
On the spurs these type of shots come from Patty and occasionally Manu.

They are also considered as a more difficult attempt then a catch and shoot or set shot 3.

Not all "transition threes" are set shots or catch-and-shoot attempts. In fact, almost none of Green's transition points are assisted. They are pull-up attempts, which are the same ones that Mills (but not Manu) usually takes, with the difference being that Mills' are in the half-court more often (though not nearly always) and Green's are on the break.

[mudyez]

Gary Payton minus playmaking, minus leadership, plus 3ptshooting, minus ballhandling, minus finishing at the hoop, minus clutchness.

[mudyez]

...and on a different position. ;)

[ceds]

Chinook what are you are trying to argue?

All ive been trying to say since I joined this thread is that Danny is primarily a set shot / catch and shoot 3pt shooter and that he cannot create three's off the dribble. The reason why we are talking about transition threes is because your mate exstatic incorrectly described that shot when trying to give an example of Green creating an off the dribble 3.

since we are on the topic though transition three's (yes pullup or otherwise!!) are considered a much easier attempt

[Chinook]

Chinook what are you are trying to argue?

All ive been trying to say since I joined this thread is that Danny is primarily a set shot / catch and shoot 3pt shooter and that he cannot create three's off the dribble. The reason why we are talking about transition threes is because your mate exstatic incorrectly described that shot when trying to give an example of Green creating an off the dribble 3.

since we are on the topic though transition three's (yes pullup or otherwise!!) are considered a much easier attempt

Transition threes that aren't assisted are by definition shots Green creates for himself. Anyway, you didn't bring up creating shots until later. You originally said Green can't shoot off the dribble. Those transition threes are examples of that. He also had numerous examples of pull-ups and step-backs in the half-court. Just because you don't remember them doesn't mean they didn't happen. Just look for Green's season highlights on YouTube. There's a long video that has plenty of examples of his offense.

Also Thompson doesn't create threes off the dribble any better than Green. He's merely slighty better inside the arch. The only thing he has over Danny is volume. I don't remember the last time Allen created a three for himself. Curry's really the only one who takes tough threes, and he's perhaps the best shooter ever.

As far as transition goes, you're dead wrong, honestly. I can't see a single way you can justify your position that transition threes are easier than their half-court counterparts. Even set threes on the break are hard as hell to make, which is why Pop hates them so much.

[ceds]

Transition threes that aren't assisted are by definition shots Green creates for himself..

No a player dribbling up the court and shooting a three does not constitute creating a 3 off the dribble. You are smarter then that and know that this is a transition 3


He also had numerous examples of pull-ups and step-backs in the half-court. Just because you don't remember them doesn't mean they didn't happen. Just look for Green's season highlights on YouTube. There's a long video that has plenty of examples of his offense...

Green gets his 3's in catch and shoot and transition. That's his meat and potatoes, everyone knows it. To argue that they come off the dribble is ludicrous


As far as transition goes, you're dead wrong, honestly. I can't see a single way you can justify your position that transition threes are easier than their half-court counterparts. Even set threes on the break are hard as hell to make, which is why Pop hates them so much.

Its common knowledge but if you want me to break it down a transition 3 is normally an open shot and contested far less then a player shooting a 3 off the dribble.


Once again:

Danny Green is one of the best catch and shoot / set shot players in the L but off the dribble is not one of his strengths

[exstatic]

When you're dribbling the ball, and then you shoot it, you've shot the ball off the dribble. It doesn't matter if it's in the half court or on the break. Sorry if that makes your position that Danny can't shoot off the dribble untenable.

[Brazil]

Is this ceds dude is retarded or something ?

[Raven]

Already has more titles than Jordan did at the same age. Not to mention Danny got one at UNC to. I don't think it's unrealistic for Green to surpass Michael.

The goods :lol

[CGD]

I think he's reached it and that's not a bad thing. Deadeye 3 point shooter who defends well. I don't think he will ever become an ISO player. Very valuable role player who will continue to thrive in an offense that emphasizes continuous motion.

Spot on. He's as good a role player as you could ask for now.

[Raven]

why would you consider "not being able to create threes off the dribble" as a minus, when it's a textbook bad shot selection type of move..

[littlecoyotecoin]

Is this ceds dude is retarded or something ?

No, as usual, not acknowledging his point is not equivalent to him not having one. I'm sure that him having 190 posts doesn't have anything to do with the arrogance in ignoring his point. You're arguing over semantics, but the gist of what he is saying is inherently valid and obvious. I love me some DG, too but it's an over-zealous defense of him. Equating him having the ball in his hand, dribbling down the court and pulling up and nailing the three (difficult or not) doesn't equate to a lot of basketball afficionados as "creating off the dribble", just because he technically dribbled it two times to get his feet under him for the three while the defense was reeling backwards on their heels, in transition, versus no defender or a scrambling unsettled defense, sure. He can knock down the three with the best of them. Lumping that into "shots off the dribble" or especially "creating off the dribble", is generous? Specious? Disingenuous? It's a slightly more frenzied set shot, that yes, he dribbled into, to set his feet, instead of setting his feet and having the ball passed to him. But, it's not exactly creating a shot off the dribble versus an engaged defender which is what Ced is referring to, I'm sure.

Technically, you're right, though! Got Ced on a zinger, there! He was dribbling before he pulled up and took a wide open 3. (Not that that isn't a skill to be praised unto itself.)

Ced just should have used "creating" off the dribble, instead of "shooting" maybe. Maybe he did. But, he's right in the meaning of his argument. Danny doesn't create his own shot well. On fast breaks, you don't have to create it. It's there. You just have to be confident enough to pull up and take it, and good enough a shooter to make it at a clip that won't get Pop on your ass. And he does a fantastic job of that.

Saying that an open three in transition, because it wasn't assisted, is a shot that he "created for himself" is abusing the word "created". You create something from a defensed position. If I walk into an open field and say, behold, I have created open spaces, I am pretty sure I haven't created shit.

Reductio ad absurdum: If Parker dribbles the ball upcourt, and passes back to a trailing Splitter at the mid-court line, and he dribbles it a couple of times and pulls up and launches a three. It goes in, we say Splitter just created a shot off the dribble under your definition. If he could do that every time, we would have to say that Splitter was one of the best off the dribble shot creaters in basketball. It wouldn't make any fucking sense, but we would have to say that.

Against a set defense, Danny is weak off the dribble. That's just plain and simple truth. It's not a horrible knock on Danny. Even Superman has Kryptonite. Steph Curry, Kobe, etc are good at it. Danny is not. Maybe you could be an optimist and say he's mediocre at it, whatever the assessment, it's an area where he is not on par with the best in the league, whereas his 3 point shooting is on par with the very best in the league, and his defense is on par with the very best in the league.

His offense off the dribble. Is. Not.

His inlet pass to the post player has made me cry out loud at least once or twice, too. Bad, lazy, dumb, distracted, or unfocused, I don't know which, but not good. Another poster mentioned Ritalin. Maybe. And, the article that someone posted regarding his floater misses. One of the worst floater misses I have ever seen came out of Danny's hand. Not Matt Bonner's hand, whose off the dribble offense is maligned to no end. Although, Danny did later redeem himself with some nice floaters. It looks like it's gotten better, but maybe it was always good (no), and he just was slumping more when I was paying attention. I think he's developed an improved floater.

But when Danny puts the ball on the floor, the first thing that comes to my mind is not: Here we go, this is Danny's strong suit. Instead, I cross my fingers, and it has seemed to work more, recently.

[Brazil]

^ I'm sure nobody is arguing that DG can create his own shots consistently

I'm saying ceds is retarded or something on this quote:

"No that's called a transition 3 and yes Danny has that in his repertoire although its one of the easiest shots in basketball.

I was talking about shooting or creating a three off the dribble (Patty mills)"

so now transition three is one of the easiest shots in bb ? duh...

[Brazil]

BTW at times dude is capable of that with batum on him:

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4438889/7_danny.gif

[littlecoyotecoin]

Chinook did not use the word "consistently", but he stated exactly that those pull-ups were Danny creating his own shot. And what Ced said was a stretch, but not retarded. It would depend upond how we defined "one of the easiest". A transition/breakaway layup is easier, a set/assisted three, free throws, yes, there are several that are easier. However, Manu Ginobili is quoted in an interview explaining why he likes that pull up three, because it's easier than going against a set defense and settling for a harder shot than what they were given to start with. They aren't saying the same thing, but not so dissimilar that one rises to the level of retardation.

The notion that Danny is "creating" that shot is closer to retarded to me, but you didn't call ol' Chinook out for that.

Of course, outside of this...all three Chinook, you, and Exstatic are all great posters, of course. Just not beyond reproach.

[littlecoyotecoin]

BTW at times dude is capable of that with batum on him:

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4438889/7_danny.gif

At times. He's pretty damn good. And, Batum wasn't exactly on him...he got caught curling behind Tim...

[Brazil]

Chinook did not use the word "consistently", but he stated exactly that those pull-ups were Danny creating his own shot. And what Ced said was a stretch, but not retarded. It would depend upond how we defined "one of the easiest". A transition/breakaway layup is easier, a set/assisted three, free throws, yes, there are several that are easier. However, Manu Ginobili is quoted in an interview explaining why he likes that pull up three, because it's easier than going against a set defense and settling for a harder shot than what they were given to start with. They aren't saying the same thing, but not so dissimilar that one rises to the level of retardation.

The notion that Danny is "creating" that shot is closer to retarded to me, but you didn't call ol' Chinook out for that.

Of course, outside of this...all three Chinook, you, and Exstatic are all great posters, of course. Just not beyond reproach.

I did not call out Chinook because he is right he "creates" his transition 3s opportunities. He steals / catches a ball then he dribbles the fucking ball, deals with transition defense and set his shot while in motion, not sure what you are arguing. At the same time he is perfectly aware Green is no Manu.

For the difficulty of transition 3s you are saying it all "there are several that are easier" I'd add there are more easier shots than more difficult

[Brazil]

At times. He's pretty damn good. And, Batum wasn't exactly on him...he got caught curling behind Tim...

well he deserves credit to take advantage of batum mistake and to use perfectly Tim screen, he handled the ball well, dribbled in traffic and used a nice floater to finish.

he is capable of creating his own shot but not consistently

[100%duncan]

Might be the best 3 point shooter in the league right now. Excellent at D, one of the best perimeter defender, one can argue he's better than Kawhi but that's a good problem for us to have.

I think he's reached his best form and oh it's very good and beautiful to watch with the Spurs system.

[Brazil]

Might be the best 3 point shooter in the league right now. Excellent at D, one of the best perimeter defender, one can argue he's better than Kawhi but that's a good problem for us to have.

I think he's reached his best form and oh it's very good and beautiful to watch with the Spurs system.

I do agree he reached somehow his "peak" but he is adding some stuff every year, he is getting better at finishing at the rim. It's not stand out progress but slowly he is becoming more capable converting his lay up attempts.

As a whole, he is imo quite underrated by Spurs fans. We have much more than a catch and shoot 3 guy....

[littlecoyotecoin]

well he deserves credit to take advantage of batum mistake and to use perfectly Tim screen, he handled the ball well, dribbled in traffic and used a nice floater to finish.

he is capable of creating his own shot but not consistently

Yeah. No argument there. He did a great job and took advantage of a mistake when Batum got OFF him. He didn't dare put the ball on the floor when Batum was ON him, as stated, which proves the point about his ability to create on his own off the dribble. I wouldn't argue how many shots are easier or harder, only that his statement is not "retarded" and is similar to what a very non-retarded Manu Ginobili has said.

and the fast break you describe where Danny blocks the ball...steals it...and dribbles all by himself to the three point line are a fraction of them. Many others are where an outlet is made to him and he pulls up and makes an uncontested three. Not this more heroic situation where he's staving off a maurauding transition D.

[100%duncan]

I do agree he reached somehow his "peak" but he is adding some stuff every year, he is getting better at finishing at the rim. It's not stand out progress but slowly he is becoming more capable converting his lay up attempts.

As a whole, he is imo quite underrated by Spurs fans. We have much more than a catch and shoot 3 guy....

I didn't mean to underrate him or ignore his improvements imho but he has not been making significant steps in those areas( driving, finishing) for me to consider them as additions to his already elite basketball repertoire. I also don't think that "3&D" is a disgraceful label imho, it best describes DG's game and he's one of the best if not the best ever in the Spurs franchise with Bowen in the same discussion.

[Brazil]

Yeah. No argument there. He did a great job and took advantage of a mistake when Batum got OFF him. He didn't dare put the ball on the floor when Batum was ON him, as stated, which proves the point about his ability to create on his own off the dribble.

I think we are perfectly in line on that point. BTW sometimes it is just a confidence issue. On the gif you can feel if he would have passed the ball if Batum stayed on him even though he showed he is capable of dealing with it.


I wouldn't argue how many shots are easier or harder, only that his statement is not "retarded" and is similar to what a very non-retarded Manu Ginobili has said.

:lol Manu has said he likes transition 3s, he does not mean that's an easy shot (did not see the quote but I can imagine). Manu also likes passing the ball between opponent legs... IIRC Pop is not a big fan of transition 3s, I don't think that's a high % shot (maybe some stats could be nice here).


and the fast break you describe where Danny blocks the ball...steals it...and dribbles all by himself to the three point line are a fraction of them. Many others are where an outlet is made to him and he pulls up and makes an uncontested three. Not this more heroic situation where he's staving off a maurauding transition D.

still when he does that, he is creating his own shot right ?

[Brazil]

I didn't mean to underrate him or ignore his improvements imho but he has not been making significant steps in those areas( driving, finishing) for me to consider them as additions to his already elite basketball repertoire. I also don't think that "3&D" is a disgraceful label imho, it best describes DG's game and he's one of the best if not the best ever in the Spurs franchise with Bowen in the same discussion.

my last sentence was not directed to you. It was a complementary overall constatation. As I said I do agree with you regarding his peak just pointing out the slight improvements he is making on both def (see pump fakes) and offense (see ball on the floor and finishing at rim)

[benefactor]

No, as usual, not acknowledging his point is not equivalent to him not having one. I'm sure that him having 190 posts doesn't have anything to do with the arrogance in ignoring his point. You're arguing over semantics, but the gist of what he is saying is inherently valid and obvious. I love me some DG, too but it's an over-zealous defense of him. Equating him having the ball in his hand, dribbling down the court and pulling up and nailing the three (difficult or not) doesn't equate to a lot of basketball afficionados as "creating off the dribble", just because he technically dribbled it two times to get his feet under him for the three while the defense was reeling backwards on their heels, in transition, versus no defender or a scrambling unsettled defense, sure. He can knock down the three with the best of them. Lumping that into "shots off the dribble" or especially "creating off the dribble", is generous? Specious? Disingenuous? It's a slightly more frenzied set shot, that yes, he dribbled into, to set his feet, instead of setting his feet and having the ball passed to him. But, it's not exactly creating a shot off the dribble versus an engaged defender which is what Ced is referring to, I'm sure.

Technically, you're right, though! Got Ced on a zinger, there! He was dribbling before he pulled up and took a wide open 3. (Not that that isn't a skill to be praised unto itself.)

Ced just should have used "creating" off the dribble, instead of "shooting" maybe. Maybe he did. But, he's right in the meaning of his argument. Danny doesn't create his own shot well. On fast breaks, you don't have to create it. It's there. You just have to be confident enough to pull up and take it, and good enough a shooter to make it at a clip that won't get Pop on your ass. And he does a fantastic job of that.

Saying that an open three in transition, because it wasn't assisted, is a shot that he "created for himself" is abusing the word "created". You create something from a defensed position. If I walk into an open field and say, behold, I have created open spaces, I am pretty sure I haven't created shit.

Reductio ad absurdum: If Parker dribbles the ball upcourt, and passes back to a trailing Splitter at the mid-court line, and he dribbles it a couple of times and pulls up and launches a three. It goes in, we say Splitter just created a shot off the dribble under your definition. If he could do that every time, we would have to say that Splitter was one of the best off the dribble shot creaters in basketball. It wouldn't make any fucking sense, but we would have to say that.

Against a set defense, Danny is weak off the dribble. That's just plain and simple truth. It's not a horrible knock on Danny. Even Superman has Kryptonite. Steph Curry, Kobe, etc are good at it. Danny is not. Maybe you could be an optimist and say he's mediocre at it, whatever the assessment, it's an area where he is not on par with the best in the league, whereas his 3 point shooting is on par with the very best in the league, and his defense is on par with the very best in the league.

His offense off the dribble. Is. Not.

His inlet pass to the post player has made me cry out loud at least once or twice, too. Bad, lazy, dumb, distracted, or unfocused, I don't know which, but not good. Another poster mentioned Ritalin. Maybe. And, the article that someone posted regarding his floater misses. One of the worst floater misses I have ever seen came out of Danny's hand. Not Matt Bonner's hand, whose off the dribble offense is maligned to no end. Although, Danny did later redeem himself with some nice floaters. It looks like it's gotten better, but maybe it was always good (no), and he just was slumping more when I was paying attention. I think he's developed an improved floater.

But when Danny puts the ball on the floor, the first thing that comes to my mind is not: Here we go, this is Danny's strong suit. Instead, I cross my fingers, and it has seemed to work more, recently.
Seriously...you are trying a bit too hard man. Cut out all of the "look how smart I am" fluff and it could have been summed up in about 5 or 6 sentences. TD21 Jr., tbh.

[100%duncan]

my last sentence was not directed to you. It was a complementary overall constatation. As I said I do agree with you regarding his peak just pointing out the slight improvements he is making on both def (see pump fakes) and offense (see ball on the floor and finishing at rim)

Yeah I know, but maybe my reasoning is the reasoning behind Spurs fan's minds when they underrate him just because he couldn't do this and that when he's elite at what he needs to do.

[Chinook]

No a player dribbling up the court and shooting a three does not constitute creating a 3 off the dribble. You are smarter then that and know that this is a transition 3

You have to stop saying that. A "transition three" isn't a type of shot like a pull-up or a floater. It's merely saying that a three came off a fastbreak or secondary break. There are many types of transition threes, some of which are taken off the dribble, some of which are catch-and-shoot attempts and some of which are set shots. What you're doing is like saying Mills can't create off the dribble because he only takes "half-court threes" (He doesn't. Both he and Green take shots in both situations, although Patty almost never takes threes off the dribble during the break.)


Green gets his 3's in catch and shoot and transition. That's his meat and potatoes, everyone knows it. To argue that they come off the dribble is ludicrous

How do you think MOST players get the bulk of their threes? ISO threes are quite frowned upon in Pop's mind. But when Green goes into big-head mode, he shoots them just as easily as anyone of the team does.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVDonHr9U0k

Seriously. Look at the video and tell me that he can't create off the dribble (not that he does a lot).


Its common knowledge but if you want me to break it down a transition 3 is normally an open shot and contested far less then a player shooting a 3 off the dribble.

That's you assuming. Most of Green's threes are uncontested, which is the primary reason why he has a high percentage. His release is fast enough that he can get it off before someone challenges him. As far as the fast break goes, I think you should watch the video I posted. Most of his pull-up threes (the ones he gets as the handler on the break) he takes while he's guarded.


Once again:

Danny Green is one of the best catch and shoot / set shot players in the L but off the dribble is not one of his strengths

No one argues that. It was you who put players with worth percentages over him because you assume they take harder shots when almost all threes are assisted. Green's offensive deficiencies are inside the arch. Outside the three-point line, he's arguably the most dynamic shooter in the NBA.

[littlecoyotecoin]

I did not call out Chinook because he is right he "creates" his transition 3s opportunities. He steals / catches a ball then he dribbles the fucking ball, deals with transition defense and set his shot while in motion, not sure what you are arguing. At the same time he is perfectly aware Green is no Manu.

For the difficulty of transition 3s you are saying it all "there are several that are easier" I'd add there are more easier shots than more difficult

We'll have to agree to disagree that he is creating a shot in a large number of those situations. He is taking what's available rather than creating much of anything in those situations. Lots of players could take uncontested threes that are not considered creators. He's just exceptional at making them. No reason to lionize that skill as more than it is, though.

[Chinook]

No, as usual, not acknowledging his point is not equivalent to him not having one. I'm sure that him having 190 posts doesn't have anything to do with the arrogance in ignoring his point. You're arguing over semantics, but the gist of what he is saying is inherently valid and obvious. I love me some DG, too but it's an over-zealous defense of him. Equating him having the ball in his hand, dribbling down the court and pulling up and nailing the three (difficult or not) doesn't equate to a lot of basketball afficionados as "creating off the dribble", just because he technically dribbled it two times to get his feet under him for the three while the defense was reeling backwards on their heels, in transition, versus no defender or a scrambling unsettled defense, sure. He can knock down the three with the best of them. Lumping that into "shots off the dribble" or especially "creating off the dribble", is generous? Specious? Disingenuous? It's a slightly more frenzied set shot, that yes, he dribbled into, to set his feet, instead of setting his feet and having the ball passed to him. But, it's not exactly creating a shot off the dribble versus an engaged defender which is what Ced is referring to, I'm sure.

Shooting off the dribble is completely different than shooting with your feet set. The main reason is because you have to add that extra step of lifting the ball, which changes the timing substantially. Green can shoot off the dribble just fine. What he can't do is dribble well enough or confidently enough to consistently create space for a shot. In games without the Big Three, however, Green very much does so.


On fast breaks, you don't have to create it. It's there. You just have to be confident enough to pull up and take it, and good enough a shooter to make it at a clip that won't get Pop on your ass. And he does a fantastic job of that.

All pull-ups are "there". That's why people shoot them. The defenders are backing up to contain the drive, so the shooter has the necessary space to get their shot off. However, the difficulty in pull-ups is that they are taken on the move (as opposed to step-backs where the player sets their feet). A transition pull-up is just like any other pull-up, except it's harder, because the shooter is coming off a sprint as opposed to a mild run. Almost every one of Mills' three that he "creates for himself" are of the pull-up variety. There's no difference between him and Green in that regard, except that Danny does have an awkward step-back that he takes at times.


But when Danny puts the ball on the floor, the first thing that comes to my mind is not: Here we go, this is Danny's strong suit. Instead, I cross my fingers, and it has seemed to work more, recently.

His main problem inside the arch is that he takes a long time to pick the ball up before going into his move. And when he picks it up, he kind of does this long scoop thing that makes it easy to strip him or to alter his form. When it comes to actually shooting, he has a pretty wide variety to moves. He can shoot all the types of layups and dunk. But until he figures out how to pick up a ball in traffic, he's going to be inconsistent as hell.

[Drachen]

#1 sg in the league on both ends.

I thought that James Harden had this wrapped up

[Brazil]

I thought that James Harden had this wrapped up

just on one end

[Drachen]

just on one end


http://mweb.cbssports.com/promo?r=/nba/eye-on-basketball/24667857/james-harden-says-hes-the-best-basketball-player-alive

[littlecoyotecoin]

I think we are perfectly in line on that point. BTW sometimes it is just a confidence issue. On the gif you can feel if he would have passed the ball if Batum stayed on him even though he showed he is capable of dealing with it.



:lol Manu has said he likes transition 3s, he does not mean that's an easy shot (did not see the quote but I can imagine). Manu also likes passing the ball between opponent legs... IIRC Pop is not a big fan of transition 3s, I don't think that's a high % shot (maybe some stats could be nice here).



still when he does that, he is creating his own shot right ?

I am sorry you didn't see the quote but still somehow know what it says. It's WHY he likes them. He said that that shot is often easier than whatever they would have gotten had they let the defense set up, and ran their offense against it. He likes it because he believes it is an easier shot, relative to a lot of others. Very similar to what Ced said.

No one said he can't ever do it. Bonner does it too. What does that prove. It isn't his strong suit.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Seriously...you are trying a bit too hard man. Cut out all of the "look how smart I am" fluff and it could have been summed up in about 5 or 6 sentences. TD21 Jr., tbh.

I can't remember the last thing you said that was interesting, so I take that into consideration when you weigh in with your criticisms.

[benefactor]

I can't remember the last thing you said that was interesting, so I take that into consideration when you weigh in with your criticisms.
I mostly lurk up here now. It's hit new lows up here the past couple of seasons. Pearls before swine, tbh.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you actually used the enter key, but your post just felt like a bunch of try hard nonsense mixed in with the points you were making. From you going immediately to post count smack, to saying shit like "Reductio ad absurdum:" to make you sound smarter, to adding lame throw away lines like "Even Superman has Kryptonite" to make your post purposely longer...the whole thing was just forced and unnecessary. You are a classic try hard and probably either a faggot or socially awkward in real life.

You keep on typing though buddy. Maybe you can get you a little group of grey disciples that think you actually have some real posting/basketball acumen when the reality is you are just some pseudo-intellectual bullshitter.

[Agloco]

Gary Payton minus playmaking, minus leadership, plus 3ptshooting, minus ballhandling, minus finishing at the hoop, minus clutchness.


...and on a different position. ;)

So not Gary Payton. Glad we got that squared away.

[Brazil]

I mostly lurk up here now. It's hit new lows up here the past couple of seasons. Pearls before swine, tbh.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you actually used the enter key, but your post just felt like a bunch of try hard nonsense mixed in with the points you were making. From you going immediately to post count smack, to saying shit like "Reductio ad absurdum:" to make you sound smarter, to adding lame throw away lines like "Even Superman has Kryptonite" to make your post purposely longer...the whole thing was just forced and unnecessary. You are a classic try hard and probably a faggot in real life.

You keep on typing though buddy. Maybe you can get you a little group of grey disciples that think you actually have some real posting/basketball acumen when the reality is you are just some pseudo-intellectual bullshitter.

:lol

Bene doin' work lately

[littlecoyotecoin]

Shooting off the dribble is completely different than shooting with your feet set. The main reason is because you have to add that extra step of lifting the ball, which changes the timing substantially. Green can shoot off the dribble just fine. What he can't do is dribble well enough or confidently enough to consistently create space for a shot. In games without the Big Three, however, Green very much does so.



All pull-ups are "there". That's why people shoot them. The defenders are backing up to contain the drive, so the shooter has the necessary space to get their shot off. However, the difficulty in pull-ups is that they are taken on the move (as opposed to step-backs where the player sets their feet). A transition pull-up is just like any other pull-up, except it's harder, because the shooter is coming off a sprint as opposed to a mild run. Almost every one of Mills' three that he "creates for himself" are of the pull-up variety. There's no difference between him and Green in that regard, except that Danny does have an awkward step-back that he takes at times.



His main problem inside the arch is that he takes a long time to pick the ball up before going into his move. And when he picks it up, he kind of does this long scoop thing that makes it easy to strip him or to alter his form. When it comes to actually shooting, he has a pretty wide variety to moves. He can shoot all the types of layups and dunk. But until he figures out how to pick up a ball in traffic, he's going to be inconsistent as hell.

I can't really disagree with any of that. But, not being able to dribble, which you agree he's got some issues with, is kind of important to being a creator.

[Galileo]

Klay Thompson is called the best 2-way shooting guard in the NBA. Yet Green is every bit as good as Thompson.

[ohmwrecker]

Poor man's Sean Elliott.

[ceds]

DG still has some improvements he can add to his game

I see him continuing to developing his counters when he is ran hard off the 3 pt line.
In G2 of the finals he made 5-6 fgs at the basket after putting the ball on the floor after a hard close out. Finishing at the basket has never been a strength of his but its clear that he has worked on that aspect of his game after being exposed in the 13 finals

Defensively i believe he is already a top 5 perimeter defender.

[Chinook]

http://www.nba.com/spurs/video/120710_green

Green's highlights from his first year as a starter. He pretty much needs to make those flashes a reality. He's done so on the defensive end, but he has work to do on offense.

[Seventyniner]

Poor man's Sean Elliott.

I'd be more willing to say that about Kawhi tbh

[ohmwrecker]

I'd be more willing to say that about Kawhi tbh

Kawhi is going to be better than Elliott.

[G-Dawgg]

Who's is the english teacher grading essays on the message boards?

[Seventyniner]

Kawhi is going to be better than Elliott.

Agreed, but he's not to the level of prime Elliott yet. I mainly meant that Kawhi is much more like Elliott than Green is.

[100%duncan]

I mostly lurk up here now. It's hit new lows up here the past couple of seasons. Pearls before swine, tbh.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you actually used the enter key, but your post just felt like a bunch of try hard nonsense mixed in with the points you were making. From you going immediately to post count smack, to saying shit like "Reductio ad absurdum:" to make you sound smarter, to adding lame throw away lines like "Even Superman has Kryptonite" to make your post purposely longer...the whole thing was just forced and unnecessary. You are a classic try hard and probably either a faggot or socially awkward in real life.

You keep on typing though buddy. Maybe you can get you a little group of grey disciples that think you actually have some real posting/basketball acumen when the reality is you are just some pseudo-intellectual bullshitter.

Drunk again imho? :lol

[SnakeBoy]

I mostly lurk up here now. It's hit new lows up here the past couple of seasons. Pearls before swine, tbh.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you actually used the enter key, but your post just felt like a bunch of try hard nonsense mixed in with the points you were making. From you going immediately to post count smack, to saying shit like "Reductio ad absurdum:" to make you sound smarter, to adding lame throw away lines like "Even Superman has Kryptonite" to make your post purposely longer...the whole thing was just forced and unnecessary. You are a classic try hard and probably either a faggot or socially awkward in real life.

You keep on typing though buddy. Maybe you can get you a little group of grey disciples that think you actually have some real posting/basketball acumen when the reality is you are just some pseudo-intellectual bullshitter.

All of that just to call the guy a faggot seems like a classic example of trying too hard.

[RD2191]

All of that just to call the guy a faggot seems like a classic example of trying too hard.

[mkurts]

Green's ceiling is like Scottie Pippen if he works super hard and becomes consistent

[Chinook]

Green's ceiling is like Scottie Pippen if he works super hard and becomes consistent

That's a lofty goal. I think Pippen is closer to Leonard's ceiling rather than Green's. I think Danny can become the two-guard version or Horry, though.

[ElNono]

He looks like prime Ariza right now, IMO, which is not a bad place to be. His two biggest glaring deficiencies are confidence in his dribble drive (dribbling in general), and certain mental mistakes (mostly borne out of losing focus at times, I suspect). I actually don't know if he can fix either at this point, but he's already a damn good player as it is.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Green's ceiling is like Scottie Pippen if he works super hard and becomes consistent

I suppose you're not old enough to have seen Scottie play, but Green is about as far away from Scottie as a wing could be. Apart from the transition defense, there's nothing similar about them two. Scottie was a superior perimeter defender, though the handchecking definitely helped, he was never anywhere near the 3 point shooter that Green is, but had great handles, could attack and finish strongly and was a great distributor.

[mingus]

His ceiling is that of a role player on a championship team in the form of being a 3&D guy. He's probably the best 3&D guy in the league.

But he can't dribble or play make worth a shit. He added a one-handed little runner last season to a degree and once he perfects that I can't see him really adding much else.

[spurraider21]

pippen ran an offense. green is fortunate to not dribble off his foot