Open Court Next 10

[testies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doExX3d1KRc

top10 after the top50 of 1997

How are guys like C Webb a lock, Nash, Kidd being tossed around and Manu not even being mentioned?

[gilmor2002]

Actually.. you should ask if Nash, Payton and Kidd were there.. Parker at least should be mentioned. 4 times NBA Champion PG.

[wildbill2u]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doExX3d1KRc

top10 after the top50 of 1997

How are guys like C Webb a lock, Nash, Kidd being tossed around and Manu not even being mentioned?

The penalty for not starting-- and consequently not getting enough minutes/production--is a limitation on his recognition as a top player with those guys.

[100%duncan]

Is there a longer vid of this? I'm actually quite interested.

[testies]

and honestly, if I have a gun to my head and I need to win the game, I much rather have Manu than A.I

[100%duncan]

I dont get how AI is a fucking majority vote tbh :lol I would take Nash over that overrated punk ass

[hsxvvd]

What I couldn't understand is how they put Wade in ahead of Reggie or like the OP stated Manu.

[Obstructed_View]

I dont get how AI is a fucking majority vote tbh :lol I would take Nash over that overrated punk ass

Kidd and Payton for sure.

[Obstructed_View]

Chris Webber couldn't even make a case for Chris Webber.

[Obstructed_View]

Kenny: "Two time MVP, Steve Na.."
Shaq: "No."

:lmao

Shaq knows who has one of his MVP trophies.

[gnsf0946]

They forgot to put Shaq on that list.

[lefty]

Kenny: "Two time MVP, Steve Na.."
Shaq: "No."

:lmao

Shaq knows who has one of his MVP trophies.
:lol

[elbamba]

Shaq was voted one of the top 50 players so he does not need to be on that list.

As for Webber, he is like Wallace from that era. Really good but not greatest of all time. The 2000s was the decade of the power forward and Tim, KG and Dirk were the best of a very deep pool.

TP should definitely be mentioned when we talk about point guards. I have no problem putting his achievements in the NBA against Kidd, Payton, and Nash.

Manu will always be one of my favorite players and if you look at his total body of work he is absolutely one of the best ever. However, only looking at the NBA he gets penalized because he was a good teammate who willingly played less minutes off the bench and allowed TP to be the main scoring option on the team after TD. He also suffered too many injuries that shortened several seasons.

[ambchang]

AI is a no brainer, league MVP, scoring champ, led a team of misfits to the finals.

Manu and Parker, as an NBA player, is no where close to the level of AI in terms of individual accomplishments. I mean, the rings argument is stupid as they BOTH played with Duncan.

My list, in order:
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe
Dirk
Garnett
Nique
AI
McAdoo
Kidd
Payton

In a few years, if things go the way it did, Durant will take that place.

Players who were good and deserves discussion:
Tmac
Nash
Webber
Chris Paul
Wade
McAdoo
Miller
MVPau
Alex English
Mullin

Players who didn't make it because of injuries/fat:
Carter
Kemp
Grant Hill

Players who should be removed from the original top 50 list:
Dave Bing
Paul Arizin
Jerry Lucas
Earl Monroe
Hal Greer
Sam Jones
Bill Sharman
James Worthy

All great players, but none of them were really leaders on great teams.

[gnsf0946]

Shaq was voted one of the top 50 players so he does not need to be on that list.

Yeh, my bad but how the fuck did Shaq deserve to be on that list in '96?

[elbamba]

Yeh, my bad but how the fuck did Shaq deserve to be on that list in '96?

He did not. I think they looked at what he had accomplished to that point and decided he would be. They were right. The only thing that could have stopped him would have been an injury like what Walton suffered. Then Shaq would have had to nominate himself just like he did for Walton.

[scanry]

Seeing the panel vote for Webber initially was painful tbh. Payton, Nash, Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Miller, Mcgrady, Rodman, Pierce and Allen are all above Webber imo.

[kobyz]

players who should be locked:
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Dirk
Garnett
Kidd
Durant

[Horse]

Shaq didn't deserve it in '96 and still doesn't cause the fucker never played D. These lists make me sick when they're filled with one-way players like Carmelo.

[testies]

AI is a no brainer, league MVP, scoring champ, led a team of misfits to the finals.

Manu and Parker, as an NBA player, is no where close to the level of AI in terms of individual accomplishments. I mean, the rings argument is stupid as they BOTH played with Duncan.



Worst post ever. You talk like Duncan was so relevant in '13 or 07

I take Manu over AI any day of the week.. A.I is a low IQ basketball player, monkeyballer

[#2!]

Shaq didn't deserve it in '96 and still doesn't cause the fucker never played D. These lists make me sick when they're filled with one-way players like Carmelo.

Carmelo was never even mentioned. And while Shaq certainly was never the defensive great that Duncan is, he is only one spot below Tim on the total career blocks list, and edges Tim out by one spot in the career bpg category. So he may not have been an all-time anchor (not everyone can be) but he certainly made a big difference for his teams.

[ambchang]

Worst post ever. You talk like Duncan was so relevant in '13 or 07

I take Manu over AI any day of the week.. A.I is a low IQ basketball player, monkeyballer

You think Duncan is not that relevant in 07, 13 and 14, and you are talking about good vs. bad posts? I mean, seriously?

Duncan led the Spurs in WS in 07, and was second in 13 and 14, Spurs still center their interior defense around Duncan, and Duncan plays an important part on the offense with his low post scorer, rolls, picks, and passes.

Manu is a fantastic player, but he was never the leader on the Spurs. It has always been, and still is, Duncan. Manu is actually one of my favourite players ever, but he is an X-factor type of player, not a superstar type of player in the NBA. He could have been if you disregard his injury issues, and I am sure he could lead a team deep in the playoffs. That said, he never actually did, he has always been the 2nd or 3rd best team on a championship contender.

AI didn't have low bball IQ, he had a low IQ. The way he break down defenses was phenomenal for a player of that size, and he played very well on the defensive end as well. He dominated a game that were traditionally dominated by giants. Standing barely 6', he led the league in scoring four times and steals 3 times. He finished at a phenomenal rate around the basket, and was feared as a finisher around the league during his prime.

Trying to put Manu or Parker anywhere near the top 50 list is retarded.

[tim_duncan_fan]

It's arguable that Manu never had the stamina and health to anchor a team for 5, 6, 10 years like a Duncan or Dirk, and he's never been by himself on a team to rack up individual achievements like an A.I. Kidd and Payton have to be near the beginning of the discussion because they've been arguably the best at their position for 5-10 years at a time.


Shaq got on in 96 because...have you seen tape of that guy run in his early years in the league? FUUUUUCK!

[Obstructed_View]

Yeh, my bad but how the fuck did Shaq deserve to be on that list in '96?

He didn't. It was a slap in the face to many good players, but history has proven it a good choice.

[Malik Hairston]

:lol some awesome "analysis" from these "legends"..gotta love the genetic lottery..

[Horse]

Carmelo was never even mentioned. And while Shaq certainly was never the defensive great that Duncan is, he is only one spot below Tim on the total career blocks list, and edges Tim out by one spot in the career bpg category. So he may not have been an all-time anchor (not everyone can be) but he certainly made a big difference for his teams.

I just mean in general these ball hogs being mentioned among the greats. And shaq may have a few highlight blocks but like everything else he did it was due to is size. How many teams did he ruin at the end of his career? Just the fact that he played on so many teams says a lot.

[diego]

You think Duncan is not that relevant in 07, 13 and 14, and you are talking about good vs. bad posts? I mean, seriously?

Duncan led the Spurs in WS in 07, and was second in 13 and 14, Spurs still center their interior defense around Duncan, and Duncan plays an important part on the offense with his low post scorer, rolls, picks, and passes.

Manu is a fantastic player, but he was never the leader on the Spurs. It has always been, and still is, Duncan. Manu is actually one of my favourite players ever, but he is an X-factor type of player, not a superstar type of player in the NBA. He could have been if you disregard his injury issues, and I am sure he could lead a team deep in the playoffs. That said, he never actually did, he has always been the 2nd or 3rd best team on a championship contender.

AI didn't have low bball IQ, he had a low IQ. The way he break down defenses was phenomenal for a player of that size, and he played very well on the defensive end as well. He dominated a game that were traditionally dominated by giants. Standing barely 6', he led the league in scoring four times and steals 3 times. He finished at a phenomenal rate around the basket, and was feared as a finisher around the league during his prime.

Trying to put Manu or Parker anywhere near the top 50 list is retarded.

manu lead the spurs in WS in the playoffs 3 times including the 05 ship, and he was second 3 times as well.
The only other players to have posted a 4.2 or higher WS in the playoffs like manu in 04-05, are:
Tim Duncan (once)
Lebron (4 times)
Dirk (once)
Jordan (4 times)
Wade (once)
KAJ (once)
Bird (twice)
kobe (once)
Shaq (once)
Barkley (once)
Billups (once)
Howard (once)
Pau (twice)
Hakeem (once)
West (once)
Mikan (once)

Only 16 other players have done it. I think very highly of AI, but to act like this conversation is ridiculous is well, ridiculous. Also, like it or not the 04 olympics are quite the black mark on AI and Duncans careers.

oh and FYI, parker was 3rd in WS when he was FMVP (1.6, manu 2.6 TD 3.3), Kawhi second with 2.9 (duncan 3.2). In 05 manu had 4.2, duncan 3.5, next Horry with 2.6. If manu had that finals mvp award people would look at him in a very different light.

[100%duncan]

I just mean in general these ball hogs being mentioned among the greats. And shaq may have a few highlight blocks but like everything else he did it was due to is size. How many teams did he ruin at the end of his career? Just the fact that he played on so many teams says a lot.

Shaq is one of the most dominant, front-court wrecking players there is. There is no argument here. Tho it was insane he was top 50 in 1996, well he made sure the spot was worth it.

[ambchang]

manu lead the spurs in WS in the playoffs 3 times including the 05 ship, and he was second 3 times as well.
The only other players to have posted a 4.2 or higher WS in the playoffs like manu in 04-05, are:
Tim Duncan (once)
Lebron (4 times)
Dirk (once)
Jordan (4 times)
Wade (once)
KAJ (once)
Bird (twice)
kobe (once)
Shaq (once)
Barkley (once)
Billups (once)
Howard (once)
Pau (twice)
Hakeem (once)
West (once)
Mikan (once)

Only 16 other players have done it. I think very highly of AI, but to act like this conversation is ridiculous is well, ridiculous. Also, like it or not the 04 olympics are quite the black mark on AI and Duncans careers.

oh and FYI, parker was 3rd in WS when he was FMVP (1.6, manu 2.6 TD 3.3), Kawhi second with 2.9 (duncan 3.2). In 05 manu had 4.2, duncan 3.5, next Horry with 2.6. If manu had that finals mvp award people would look at him in a very different light.

The fact that Billups and Howard are in that list tells you a lot. The issue with WS in the playoffs is that it plays heavily in matchups. In the playoffs, a team plays 4 teams, max, whereas in the regular season, a team plays against 29 other teams.

Not to minimize the efforts of Manu in that playoff run, because he was phenomenal during that run, but it is not something that you build a top 50 case around, especially when you have done it once. Players catch fire for short spurts, and the WS for the playoffs shoots up accordingly.

Manu in the conversation for a top 10 player in the league for, max, 2 or 3 seasons. AI has been in that conversation half a dozen times or more.

Finals MVP is an even worse award/stat to look at, it's over a 4 to 7 game stretch. Parker won in 07, he was not the Spurs best player that season, Duncan was. Cedric Maxwell, James Worthy, and Joe Dumars won that award before as well, but they were most definitely second or even third bananas on those teams.

[dbreiden83080]

I dont get how AI is a fucking majority vote tbh :lol I would take Nash over that overrated punk ass

Nah AI needs to be unanimous. His stats are incredible and the dude was like 5'10..

[Obstructed_View]

I dont get how AI is a fucking majority vote tbh :lol I would take Nash over that overrated punk ass

I guess I didn't react strongly enough to this one, as I think you were being hyperbolus, but upon further reflection, there's no way you take Nash over AI. He had a questionable work-ethic and he wasn't the best teammate, but he was a 5'11" Jordan. I think he's probably the second greatest college player I ever saw. Dude averaged 33 points per game one season with the corpse of Chris Webber throwing up 20 shots a night next to him. He actually deserved his MVP.

[chazley]

Anyone saying Tony or Manu deserve to be on this list isn't very bright.

Reggie Miller is one of the most overrated players of all-time. Sure, he was clutch, but he played 18 seasons and was an all-star only five times despite almost never being injured, and didnt even shoot 40% from 3 over his career despite being praised as a top 2 or 3 shooter of all-time.

AI, on the flipside, should not be discredited for not winning a ring. He dragged a horrendous 76ers team to the Finals the year he won MVP and SINGLEHANDEDLY won a Finals game against one of the greatest teams of alltime, the 2001 Lakers. He is one of the greatest basketball players of all time without a doubt.

Chris Webber only made 5 allstar teams and never got the the Finals with an absolutely stacked Kings team. You can make the excuse that they peaked at the wrong time (prime Lakers teams) but the Spurs with Tim Duncan got through them multiple times, and Tim arguably didn't have the same caliber of teammates as Webber.

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dirk Nowitzki
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Dominique Wilkins
Dwyane Wade

Those are my top 10. McGrady/Mcadoo/Ray Allen are RIGHT there but there's not enough room. I couldn't argue with taking Nash out and replacing him with one of those guys, but two MVPs back-to-back is hard to beat.

[milkyway21]

MY TOP 3

TIM DUNCAN #1 (unanimous choice :tu )

KOBE BRYANT #2
LEBRON JAMES #3


OTHERS TO CONSIDER:
IVERSON, GARNETT, NOWITZKI, KIDD, NASH (2-time MVP? Shaq hilarious on this one lol ),
may include Wade but no Allen for me.

[Horse]

Shaq is one of the most dominant, front-court wrecking players there is. There is no argument here. Tho it was insane he was top 50 in 1996, well he made sure the spot was worth it.

Certainly not in '96. I can see you argument for now but i'll still say he was a one-way player who got away with murder. Not that impressed with his rebounding for his size and couldn't be trusted down the stretch cause of his free throw shooting. His athleticism at his size was impressive but otherwise he was just the biggest kid on the block.

[ace3g]

Tonight they are discussing:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz8_NaFCIAA9H_c.jpg:large

[Wu36]

The 50 greatest player list was done in 96. Why were they taking about the next ten players when we are closer to 70 years now? The first 50 years get 50 players even though the league only had like 12
teams till the 70's? And now they debate adding the next 10 players over the last 18 years? I like Open Court but that episode wasn't thought out.

[Silver&Black]

Tonight they are discussing:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz8_NaFCIAA9H_c.jpg:large

Nice job with the Photoshop....it still looks very professional. Who did you take out to put Bonner in??

[spursparker9]

Nice job with the Photoshop....it still looks very professional. Who did you take out to put Bonner in??

:lol

[spurraider21]

probably kevin love

[spursparker9]

Kevin Love not inside ?

[spursparker9]

KD is not even a stretch 4. He is a perimeter player.

[DAF86]

Looking at individual accolades on the NBA Manu doesn't deserve to be in the same conversation with players like AI and Nash, just looking at them as basketball players and what they do on a basketball court to help their team win games I would rather have Manu over any of those guys, tbh.