Malik Hairston

[lefty]

An article for you TBH

http://thestartingfive.wordpress.com/2007/05/07/739/

[Calispursfan11]

Gay thread title, tbh Lefty. This is PM material.

[scanry]

Zeke is not a top 15 player of all time. The one guy who hasn't gotten his due is Joe Dumars. For some reason he never got caught in the Bad Boys Pistons image. No wonder Detroit chose him over Isiah for front office.

BTW Dumars had an incredible 89 finals series against the Lakers. A very underated SG tbh.

[ambchang]

Jordan was protected by the media, no doubt. The Bad Boys Pistons were vilified for being the biggest Jordan beaters, and has been underrated ever since.

That said, Isiah isn't a top 15 player, that Pistons team was loaded with talent, and revolutionized the defense of the NBA. Every single one of those Pistons were above average in everything at their positions, and subs can come into the game without missing a whole lot. They have some great talent in Thomas, Dumars, Laimbeer, pre-crazy Rodman, Microwave, Spider, Mahorn, and one of the greatest coaches of all time in Daly.

The repeat Pistons were one of those teams that deserved to be mentioned as one of the best of all time, but is instead being known as the weak team that bridged the Celtics/Lakers era to the Bulls era.

[lefty]

Isiah not top 15?

Find me another player who scored 25 pts in one quarter of the NBA Finals on 1 leg

No?

Can't think of one ?

[spurraider21]

Isiah not top 15?

Find me another player who scored 25 pts in one quarter of the NBA Finals on 1 leg

No?

Can't think of one ?
thats a really weird qualifier to set

[lefty]

thats a really weird qualifier to set
:lol

But tbh, who won titles without talent around him?

[ambchang]

Sleepy Floyd set a record with points in a playoff quarter, but I am never going to put him anywhere near any top 15 lists.

Thomas won with great talent and coaching around him, I honestly can't see another player who could really replace him to two championships because his skill set was unique, but that could be said of all top 15 players.

Players I would rank above him, in no particular order (purely in terms of impact to the game, so don't go into the weak competition in the old days crap):
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
Moses Malone
Shaq
Lebron
Dr. J (including ABA days)
Big O
Russell
Jerry West
Hakeem


Damn it, I think he may really be a top 15 player. But I will still put him in the same tier as:
Dirk
Robinson
Kobe
Garnett
Barkley

[Sean Cagney]

Zeke is not a top 15 player of all time. The one guy who hasn't gotten his due is Joe Dumars. For some reason he never got caught in the Bad Boys Pistons image. No wonder Detroit chose him over Isiah for front office.

BTW Dumars had an incredible 89 finals series against the Lakers. A very underated SG tbh.
Joe D was one of my fave players of all times.
Jordan was protected by the media, no doubt. The Bad Boys Pistons were vilified for being the biggest Jordan beaters, and has been underrated ever since.

That said, Isiah isn't a top 15 player, that Pistons team was loaded with talent, and revolutionized the defense of the NBA. Every single one of those Pistons were above average in everything at their positions, and subs can come into the game without missing a whole lot. They have some great talent in Thomas, Dumars, Laimbeer, pre-crazy Rodman, Microwave, Spider, Mahorn, and one of the greatest coaches of all time in Daly.

The repeat Pistons were one of those teams that deserved to be mentioned as one of the best of all time, but is instead being known as the weak team that bridged the Celtics/Lakers era to the Bulls era.
I agree but I have never heard them being called a weak team by anyone. They have documentaries on them and I read about them in magazines and so on as a kid, they were and still are WELL known and respected for that era. They deserve more credit though.

[lefty]

:lmao Dr J above Isiah

Dr J is nothing more than a glorified monkeyballer :lol

Russell is just a glorified Ben Wallace :lol


Shaq? please; sure he carried Kirby, but without his natural strength he was nothing, as we saw whe age caught up to him , he was just a useless slob


:lol at mentioning Sleepy Floyd; he had one great game in his life

And was it on 1 leg? Was it, was it ????

[ambchang]

:lmao Dr J above Isiah

Dr J is nothing more than a glorified monkeyballer :lol

Russell is just a glorified Ben Wallace :lol


Shaq? please; sure he carried Kirby, but without his natural strength he was nothing, as we saw whe age caught up to him , he was just a useless slob


:lol at mentioning Sleepy Floyd; he had one great game in his life

And was it on 1 leg? Was it, was it ????

Isiah never dropped 25 in a quarter on two good ankles, so I guess he was better hurt

And dr J was phenomenal in the aba days. He changed the complexion of the league.

Russell transformed the style of basketball with his defense and outlet passes.

Shaq at his peak was the best of all time good. As good as Jordan Kareem or Lebron at their respective peaks.

[spurraider21]

but without his natural strength he was nothin
yes and without his height i'm sure Duncan wouldn't be as good.

never understood these arguments. all that matters is how good he was. how effective, productive. i dont care how he did it... but he did it

[Silver&Black]

:lol

But tbh, who won titles without talent around him?

Shaq and MVPau

[lefty]

yes and without his height i'm sure Duncan wouldn't be as good.

never understood these arguments. all that matters is how good he was. how effective, productive. i dont care how he did it... but he did it
So you are saying Shaq was fundamentally sound like Duncan

Damn

[spurraider21]

So you are saying Shaq was fundamentally sound like Duncan

Damn
where did i say that?

[lefty]

where did i say that?
well you are saying timmy wouldnt be as good without his height

He would still have great fundamuntals

whereas shaq without his superhuman strength .... yeah he would be pretty much fucked

[spurraider21]

well you are saying timmy wouldnt be as good without his height

He would still have great fundamuntals

whereas shaq without his superhuman strength .... yeah he would be pretty much fucked
was i wrong to say Timmy wouldn't be as good without his height?

i just think its pointless to talk about what a player would have been like without physical attributes. bottom line is they have them. its irrelevant how "skilled" they were. i'm sure brook lopez has a more refined post game than Shaq did. does it matter? fuck no

[lefty]

was i wrong to say Timmy wouldn't be as good without his height?

i just think its pointless to talk about what a player would have been like without physical attributes. bottom line is they have them. its irrelevant how "skilled" they were. i'm sure brook lopez has a more refined post game than Shaq did. does it matter? fuck no
Brooke Lopez > Shaq

[lefty]

Abd yes, Joe D's contribution is still underrated to this day

One of my favorite players of all time


Isiah + Joe = best backcourt ever

[spurraider21]

Brooke Lopez > Shaq
lefty who do you think has better post skills. shaq or scola?

[lefty]

lefty who do you think has better post skills. shaq or scola?
Yinka Dare

[ambchang]

Isiah Thomas would be flipping burgers without his blazing speed. See how pointless an argument it is to take away physical attributes.

[lefty]

Isiah Thomas would be flipping burgers without his blazing speed. See how pointless an argument it is to take away physical attributes.

Sure because all he did was running non stop

[RD2191]

Brooke Lopez > Shaq
:lol

[spurraider21]

Sure because all he did was running non stop
how good would he have been in the NBA if he had your footspeed?

[lefty]

how good would he have been in the NBA if he had your footspeed?
Still great

[spurraider21]

:rollin

[lefty]

:rollin
Only Robert Horry could stop him tbh

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7qrkprCpQ1qic7wlo1_400.gif

[ambchang]

Sure because all he did was running non stop

And all shaq did was bowl people over?

Shaq's footwork in the post was great. He was one of the best passing big, he is extremely quick and agile, especially for a big man.

[lefty]

Tbf, he relied on his strength much more than Isiah relied on his speed.

[ambchang]

Tbf, he relied on his strength much more than Isiah relied on his speed.

No issues with that. But fact remains that shaq dominated the league for a few years like no other did.

Take away Shaq's strength, he'd still be an all str level big.

[Obstructed_View]

thats a really weird qualifier to set

Not if you watched the game. That was one of the single greatest performances ever in basketball. Isiah was really fucking good, arguably top 15.

[Obstructed_View]

No issues with that. But fact remains that shaq dominated the league for a few years like no other did.

Take away Shaq's strength, he'd still be an all str level big.

My god, your basketball opinions are breathtakingly stupid.

[ambchang]

My god, your basketball opinions are breathtakingly stupid.

Because?

[lefty]

Not if you watched the game. That was one of the single greatest performances ever in basketball. Isiah was really fucking good, arguably top 15.


My god, your basketball opinions are breathtakingly stupid.
:bobo

[Raven]

And all shaq did was bowl people over?

Shaq's footwork in the post was great. He was one of the best passing big, he is extremely quick and agile, especially for a big man.

what? :lol i agree with the rest you've said so far, but that :lol

[ambchang]

what? :lol i agree with the rest you've said so far, but that :lol

Shaq was quick back in the day, especially when he was with Orlando.

There has been some really big and strong guys in the NBA, and they have never capitalized like Shaq did (Gilmore was strong as an Ox), but the thing that really sets Shaq apart was how quick and athletic he was, even with that strength.

At the end of his career (Suns and Celtics), Shaq was still strong, but he wasn't nearly as good because he wasn't as quick as before.

[ambchang]

Not if you watched the game. That was one of the single greatest performances ever in basketball. Isiah was really fucking good, arguably top 15.


My god, your basketball opinions are breathtakingly stupid.

Didn't even get the first quote. So you are saying it was good to set a player's legacy based on one single game? I don't agree with that at all, and that to be breathtakingly stupid.

Isiah is arguably top 15 ever not because of that quarter, or that 16 points in 90 seconds game, it was his overall body of work, acting as a leader to two straight championships on a game altering defensive Pistons team, and being the main offensive force on a largely defensive team.

Lebron didn't get to top 15 ever status because of that 25 straight points game, he got there with his dominance over a period of time.


:bobo

[Raven]

Shaq was quick back in the day, especially when he was with Orlando.

There has been some really big and strong guys in the NBA, and they have never capitalized like Shaq did (Gilmore was strong as an Ox), but the thing that really sets Shaq apart was how quick and athletic he was, even with that strength.

At the end of his career (Suns and Celtics), Shaq was still strong, but he wasn't nearly as good because he wasn't as quick as before.

it's the agile part that is puzzling.. i mean a guy that always comes last on the other side of the court and when he comes is like a truck on a 60's Vespa is not what i call agile :lol.. Also he was fairly questionable on the defensive end, mostly because he was not really agile.

[Brazil]

It seems people are talking about Shaq of the phoenix suns or cavaliers tbh

Shaq was not the first to be a force of the nature. Of course his size / bulk are freak but saying that's the only reason of his dominance is dumb. Muresan was taller and bigger and yet was one of the worst nba player ever. You need motricity, footwork, yes agility to drive dat kind of engine.

I do like Isiah, nothing wrong putting him in top 15 but I take Shaq over him in a heartbeat.

[ambchang]

it's the agile part that is puzzling.. i mean a guy that always comes last on the other side of the court and when he comes is like a truck on a 60's Vespa is not what i call agile :lol.. Also he was fairly questionable on the defensive end, mostly because he was not really agile.

You must not have seen him in his physical peak. Him coming down the court late and his defense is more due to his effort and conditioning than anything else. Back in the Orlando days and the Lakers three peat days, Shaq was agile. Him rolling for alley-oops was really an amazing sight.

[spurraider21]

Not if you watched the game. That was one of the single greatest performances ever in basketball. Isiah was really fucking good, arguably top 15.
that's not the point. but thats like saying if u never scored 62 points in 3 quarters, ur not better than kobe

[lefty]

that's not the point. but thats like saying if u never scored 62 points in 3 quarters, ur not better than kobe
Kirby shits on MJ, tbh

[spurraider21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMX1FGwyr38

[lefty]

:lol Shaq taking 10 hours to get in the paint and then pushing off his opponenent for the dunk

[spurraider21]

:lol Shaq taking 10 hours to get in the paint
coasting. and btw there's no push, look at the play. keeps his hands to himself

[lefty]

It's subtle :D

[TDMVPDPOY]

kirby fans only compared him to jordan wizards

now lebron fans will compared the 48.5m kirby ...nothing to see here

[ambchang]

People forget about these ....

3DSN1KnAW-Y

And that was just his rookie year.

[lefty]

Dunkdunkdunkdunkderp

[dirk4mvp]

:lol there are people in this world that would take Isiah Thomas over Shaq?

[lefty]

:lol there are people in this world that would take Isiah Thomas over Shaq?
Isiah didnt need the refs to win a playoffs series :lol

[dirk4mvp]

but he did have gay sex with Magic Johnson

[lefty]

but he did have gay sex with Magic Johnson
shit that's true

[Clipper Nation]

Isiah didnt need the refs to win a playoffs series :lol
He just needed Dumars, Rodman, Microwave, Laimbeer, Edwards, Aguirre, etc...

Meanwhile, Shaq only had Horry in his prime :lol

[lefty]

He just needed Dumars, Rodman, Microwave, Laimbeer, Edwards, Aguirre, etc...

Meanwhile, Shaq only had Horry in his prime :lol
ouch CN shitting on Kirby fan

[Obstructed_View]

that's not the point. but thats like saying if u never scored 62 points in 3 quarters, ur not better than kobe

Not at all. What Isiah did in that playoff game is one of the top three playoff performances ever. It was heroic, it was clutch, it embodied everything that he did in his career. The only reason I'm not outright calling it the best is because there might be a couple I didn't see or have forgotten. If that had been the only thing Zeke did, yeah I'd agree with you, but he averaged over 20 points and over 10 assists for several years before all those talented people showed up on his team and he was able to win titles by distributing the ball and being amazingly clutch from both the paint and outside. Dude averaged 21 points and 14 assists one season, with over four boards per game and he's only six feet tall.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably not even arguable that he's top 15.

[spurraider21]

Not at all. What Isiah did in that playoff game is one of the top three playoff performances ever. It was heroic, it was clutch, it embodied everything that he did in his career. The only reason I'm not outright calling it the best is because there might be a couple I didn't see or have forgotten. If that had been the only thing Zeke did, yeah I'd agree with you, but he averaged over 20 points and over 10 assists for several years before all those talented people showed up on his team and he was able to win titles by distributing the ball and being amazingly clutch from both the paint and outside. Dude averaged 21 points and 14 assists one season, with over four boards per game and he's only six feet tall.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably not even arguable that he's top 15.
i'm not trying to chop down zeke here... but that one game qualifier is still silly

[Obstructed_View]

Because?

Because Shaq couldn't shoot and could barely dribble. Without his strength he's the tallest guy at the post office.

[Obstructed_View]

i'm not trying to chop down zeke here... but that one game qualifier is still silly

Holy fuck, dude. Stop being obtuse. Do you know how to read?

[Raven]

People forget about these ....

3DSN1KnAW-Y

And that was just his rookie year.

that's not agility tbh, athleticism sure, but agility? And that's as fast as he ever was, and even in these highlights he still looks like he was the last one coming.

[spurraider21]

that's not agility tbh, athleticism sure, but agility? And that's as fast as he ever was, and even in these highlights he still looks like he was the last one coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eu2NrAqQr4

[TDMVPDPOY]

LOL camping in the lane, thats all he does

[Raven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eu2NrAqQr4

that's nice, but that doesn't make him agile..

[ambchang]

Because Shaq couldn't shoot and could barely dribble. Without his strength he's the tallest guy at the post office.

He was extremely quick, agile and athletic for a guy who is 7' tall. Shaq's lack of skills was often overblown; he had great foot work, fantastic passing from the low post, and was a very skilled player. If by without his strength you mean he would be as weak as a 4 year old girl, then he wouldn't be in the NBA because nobody who is as weak as a 4 year old girl can make it to the NBA. But if by without his strength you mean he would have the strength of an average NBA center, then I would disagree with you, I'd maintain he'd still be an all-star level player, especially considering Jamaal Maglore and Jason Williams made the all star team during Shaq's reign.

[ambchang]

that's not agility tbh, athleticism sure, but agility? And that's as fast as he ever was, and even in these highlights he still looks like he was the last one coming.

How is a 7 footer going coast to coast not agile?

How can someone who is not agile spin on alleyoops like that?

Shaq was about as quick and coordinated as any 7' 300lbers in NBA history. I am not sure what you are looking for.

[spurraider21]

i dont think anybody is arguing that shaq had the best big man "skills" but realistically it doesn't matter. one could argue kobe has more technical skill than Michael, but it doesn't matter. what matters is how effective they are/were on the court. luis scola probably has better post moves than shaq did, but who would you rather dump the ball down to?

[Raven]

How is a 7 footer going coast to coast not agile?

How can someone who is not agile spin on alleyoops like that?

Shaq was about as quick and coordinated as any 7' 300lbers in NBA history. I am not sure what you are looking for.

well the fact that he was 7' 300lb is exactly the reason why he wasn't agile in the first place so it's a moot point. i mean if you compare him with other 7fters, i'd hardly call him better than below average. Compare him with for example marc gasol and tell me who is more agile.. for a 7fter he was everything but agile.

[ambchang]

well the fact that he was 7' 300lb is exactly the reason why he wasn't agile in the first place so it's a moot point. i mean if you compare him with other 7fters, i'd hardly call him better than below average. Compare him with for example marc gasol and tell me who is more agile.. for a 7fter he was everything but agile.

I would love seeing Marc Gasol pull out some of the moves Shaq did. How was spinning to the basket and leading a break based on strength? That was all on his agility and skills.

[Raven]

I would love seeing Marc Gasol pull out some of the moves Shaq did. How was spinning to the basket and leading a break based on strength? That was all on his agility and skills.

a guard attacks him there, it's tournover all the way. And any center can dribble the ball in straight line, really not much agility there to showcase. tbh i can't believe i'm arguing about shaq's agility :lol

[JamStone]

I think around top 15 is right about where Isiah belongs. I don't think it's a travesty to keep him out of the top 15 all time, but I think there are arguments to put him in the top 15 as well. Some people underestimate how great he was though, some because most of his career he lived in the shadows of Magic, Bird, and Michael. Some because of his post playing career disasters as a coach, GM, and CBA commish. I do think that gives some bias to how he as a player is now viewed.

Isiah was spectacular to watch. Every bit the wizard with the basketball Magic was, and perhaps more because I think Isiah was a far superior dribbler and his lack of height (compared to Magic) was a disadvantage with some of the passes he was able to make. He was more than that 25 point quarter versus the Lakers. Throughout most of his early career, he was always clutch late in games. Never a really high percentage shooter, but when the game was on the line, you'd want no one else shooting the ball, except for maybe Bird. That 25 point quarter wasn't even his first jaw-dropping playoff performance. Do people remember him scoring 16 points in 94 seconds against Bernard King and the Knicks in the playoffs? That was arguably just as impressive, perhaps more.

The thing about it was that in recorded documentaries and segments on those Bad Boys Pistons, Chuck Daly has been on record saying he asked Isiah to stop scoring as much, stop being the facilitator as much as he was early on in his career. He convinced Isiah that the only way the Pistons were going to eventually win championships was for Isiah to allow his teammates to also shine, in particular Joe Dumars. Sometime in the late 80s before they won their titles, Daly asked Isiah to sacrifice his game. He didn't need to be a 20/10 guy anymore because Dumars was fully capable of helping to carry the load. And that's what eventually happened.

Isiah might not go down in NBA history to be on par with Magic and Bird and Michael, however, he very well may have if his career didn't overlap theirs. Think about that too. Amidst and in between the golden age of Magic and Bird and before Michael's 90s reign, Isiah was the only superstar to break through for a championship other than those three, and he was able to help lead his team to 2 of them. I think that in itself says a lot when you consider those three are universally regarded as among the top 5 players ever. Also consider, that even though Daly asked Isiah to sacrifice in the second half of his career which ended up dropping his career statistics, he averaged 19 points and 9 assists for his career. Now admittedly, he got injured and didn't play a couple extra seasons where those numbers probably drop off even more. However, 19 and 9 on his career. Only two other players can claim those career averages, Magic and Oscar, and both are universally regarded as top 10 or at least top 15 players.

There's no disrespect to think Isiah is outside of top 15, but it's also not far fetched to believe he is in the top 15 either.

[ambchang]

a guard attacks him there, it's tournover all the way. And any center can dribble the ball in straight line, really not much agility there to showcase. tbh i can't believe i'm arguing about shaq's agility :lol

Did it end up in a turnover? Why didn't a guard attack him? How many centers can pull of that move?

I can't believe you are arguing about Shaq's agility either, the guy is about as coordinated as they come.

[lefty]

LOL camping in the lane, thats all he does
And elbowing his defender in the face to gain position down low

[Arcadian]

I think around top 15 is right about where Isiah belongs.

Please have a talk with the folks at RealGM who ranked him #39.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924

[lefty]

I think around top 15 is right about where Isiah belongs. I don't think it's a travesty to keep him out of the top 15 all time, but I think there are arguments to put him in the top 15 as well. Some people underestimate how great he was though, some because most of his career he lived in the shadows of Magic, Bird, and Michael. Some because of his post playing career disasters as a coach, GM, and CBA commish. I do think that gives some bias to how he as a player is now viewed.

Isiah was spectacular to watch. Every bit the wizard with the basketball Magic was, and perhaps more because I think Isiah was a far superior dribbler and his lack of height (compared to Magic) was a disadvantage with some of the passes he was able to make. He was more than that 25 point quarter versus the Lakers. Throughout most of his early career, he was always clutch late in games. Never a really high percentage shooter, but when the game was on the line, you'd want no one else shooting the ball, except for maybe Bird. That 25 point quarter wasn't even his first jaw-dropping playoff performance. Do people remember him scoring 16 points in 94 seconds against Bernard King and the Knicks in the playoffs? That was arguably just as impressive, perhaps more.

The thing about it was that in recorded documentaries and segments on those Bad Boys Pistons, Chuck Daly has been on record saying he asked Isiah to stop scoring as much, stop being the facilitator as much as he was early on in his career. He convinced Isiah that the only way the Pistons were going to eventually win championships was for Isiah to allow his teammates to also shine, in particular Joe Dumars. Sometime in the late 80s before they won their titles, Daly asked Isiah to sacrifice his game. He didn't need to be a 20/10 guy anymore because Dumars was fully capable of helping to carry the load. And that's what eventually happened.

Isiah might not go down in NBA history to be on par with Magic and Bird and Michael, however, he very well may have if his career didn't overlap theirs. Think about that too. Amidst and in between the golden age of Magic and Bird and before Michael's 90s reign, Isiah was the only superstar to break through for a championship other than those three, and he was able to help lead his team to 2 of them. I think that in itself says a lot when you consider those three are universally regarded as among the top 5 players ever. Also consider, that even though Daly asked Isiah to sacrifice in the second half of his career which ended up dropping his career statistics, he averaged 19 points and 9 assists for his career. Now admittedly, he got injured and didn't play a couple extra seasons where those numbers probably drop off even more. However, 19 and 9 on his career. Only two other players can claim those career averages, Magic and Oscar, and both are universally regarded as top 10 or at least top 15 players.

There's no disrespect to think Isiah is outside of top 15, but it's also not far fetched to believe he is in the top 15 either.
not bad tbh

[JamStone]

Please have a talk with the folks at RealGM who ranked him #39.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924


People will have their opinions. What can you do?

[RsxPiimp]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there;s nothing impressive statistically in Isiah Thomas' career. All the advance statistics pretty much points out to him being an inefficient player.

[Arcadian]

People will have their opinions. What can you do?

I know, but I was shocked that none of these people (who are supposedly hardcore basketball fans) had in him the top 25, much less top 15.

I personally would not have him top 15, but probably top 25. For me, he's the third best PG of all time after Magic and Oscar. But RealGM has him as only the 10th best PG behind the likes of Nash, Stockton, Frazier, Paul, Kidd, and Payton. :lol To me, that's just absurd.

On the other hand, they ranked Duncan at #5, so I can't complain too much.

[TDMVPDPOY]

And elbowing his defender in the face to gain position down low

dont forget the shoulder charge to get closer to the ring for a dunk

[RsxPiimp]

I know, but I was shocked that none of these people (who are supposedly hardcore basketball fans) had in him the top 25, much less top 15.

I personally would not have him top 15, but probably top 25. For me, he's the third best PG of all time after Magic and Oscar. But RealGM has him as only the 10th best PG behind the likes of Nash, Stockton, Frazier, Paul, Kidd, and Payton. :lol To me, that's just absurd.

On the other hand, they ranked Duncan at #5, so I can't complain too much.

With the exception of Nash, due to his style, I think any of the players ranked ahead of Thomas could also successfully lead the Bad BoyPistons to a title. It's hypothetical, sure, but really, Thomas has always been overrated in terms of his career.

[lefty]

With the exception of Nash, due to his style, I think any of the players ranked ahead of Thomas could also successfully lead the Bad BoyPistons to a title. It's hypothetical, sure, but really, Thomas has always been overrated in terms of his career.

I don't think anu other pg would have won with Detroit back then

Isiah was the driving force behind the Bad Boys' identity and their "us against the World" mentality.