From Grizzlies forums

[testies]

http://boards.grizzliesonline.com/index.php?showtopic=17223&st=20

"Yeah, and I was SO glad when Pop put McDyess or some other cadaver on Z Bo instead of Tiaggo Splitter. Even then, Splitter could shut down Z Bo. I have no idea why Splitter didn't play more. "

Pop almost blew it by putting Kawhi on Monta. By giving Belli major minutes. Of course he stopped doing that when water rose to neck levels, but in other years, he never made these fixes. 2011 should have been ours too, very easy title to win

I'm not even gonna mention game 6

NEVER.FORGET.

These innumerous Pop mistakes. A coach carried by Ginobili, who taught himself Magnagno's sytem to the players. Pop is a motivational speaker, and we cease to exist when coach Ginobili retires

(insert gif of Ginobili with the tactical board during a timeout)

[Shastafarian]

Grizzlies fans would know what it takes to win a title.


Oh wait no they wouldn't.

[Silver&Black]

Hold on...The Grizzlies have a forum??? Why...???

[Chinook]

I do understand what they're saying. Pop didn't really have a good series against Memphis in 2011 from an Xs and O's standpoint. The same is true for the Dallas series last year, except he obviously let Splitter play Dirk. Pop's decision to bench Green and put Leonard on Ellis in Game Six is why Dallas forced a Game Seven. I didn't do the stats for that series, but Green was absolutely dominating Monta defensively in that game, and Ellis went off in the final minutes after Green sat. I fear Pop is going to do the same thing this year if the Spurs and Mavs meet in the post-season.

[look_at_g_shred]

Man I bet that series is celebrated like a championship by #gritandgrindnation

[ElNono]

I like the Griz... wish we could get Fat Gasol before he declines

[baseline bum]

I like the Griz... wish we could get Fat Gasol before he declines

How you gonna get 2013 Gasol son?

[Mugen]

How you gonna get 2013 Gasol son?

:lol

[Malik Hairston]

Pop is human, he makes mistakes, too..

So did Dad Killer, so does Lebron, so does Duncan, etc..

[RD2191]

Pop is human, he makes mistakes, too..

So did Dad Killer, so does Lebron, so does Duncan, etc..

[ElNono]

How you gonna get 2013 Gasol son?

:lol he's not that bad...

[KaiRMD1]

That was probably the highest point for the Grizzlies franchise. But mad respect, they beat us fair and square and they did it that grit and grind way but on a serious note, they have a forum?

[Proxy]

Pop's decision to bench Green and put Leonard on Ellis in Game Six is why Dallas forced a Game Seven. I didn't do the stats for that series, but Green was absolutely dominating Monta defensively in that game, and Ellis went off in the final minutes after Green sat. I fear Pop is going to do the same thing this year if the Spurs and Mavs meet in the post-season.

Assuming Pop knows of those stats, why fear a repeat mistake this year? What do you think Pop's thought process was, switching them in the first place?

[Chinook]

Assuming Pop knows of those stats, why fear a repeat mistake this year? What do you think Pop's thought process was, switching them in the first place?

I think he feels like Kawhi is just the better defender in general and wants to put him on the opposing team's best perimeter scorer in crunchtime. Also, he almost certainly wants Manu out there to close games, so it's a choice between Green and Leonard for who's going to be on the floor. A lot of time, the answer to that question is Leonard. But for teams like the Clippers and last year's Mavs, the answer was Green.

Again, Green proved over the course of the Dallas series that he was the superior Ellis defender. But still in the fourth quarter of Game Six, Pop took him out and put Kawhi on him. So I'm not sure that Pop ever really learned, since Game Seven was a blowout.

[timtonymanu]

The Spurs weren't going to win the title in 2011 even with a healthy Manu. :lol

You aren't going to win a title with an injured Duncan and Manu while relying on chokers like Jefferson and Hill and playing Bonner/Blair significant minutes.

[mkurts]

I do understand what they're saying. Pop didn't really have a good series against Memphis in 2011 from an Xs and O's standpoint. The same is true for the Dallas series last year, except he obviously let Splitter play Dirk. Pop's decision to bench Green and put Leonard on Ellis in Game Six is why Dallas forced a Game Seven. I didn't do the stats for that series, but Green was absolutely dominating Monta defensively in that game, and Ellis went off in the final minutes after Green sat. I fear Pop is going to do the same thing this year if the Spurs and Mavs meet in the post-season.

Very possible as Pop likes to throw games just to prove a point and use the loss for motivation, no matter the cost

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs weren't going to win the title in 2011 even with a healthy Manu. :lol

You aren't going to win a title with an injured Duncan and Manu while relying on chokers like Jefferson and Hill and playing Bonner/Blair significant minutes.

The bolded part is the argument against your first sentence. Splitter rotted on the bench during that series, so Bonner/Blair wouldn't have logged significant minutes Nobody was dominant in the NBA that year. First year of Miami being together. Manu's arm would have gotten better as time went on. History shows that the Spurs are far better with Splitter in the rotation than without. The Spurs were 3-1 against Dallas in the regular season and 3-0 against OKC even the way Pop put them out on the floor. I think that was clearly the second title left on the table by Pop's personnel decisions.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Easy to say with hindsight but the truth is the Splitter-Duncan pair was atrocious in 2011, clearly backed by stats. It took them a while until they could play together without being huge liabilities. Also 2014 Splitter >> 2011 Splitter, dude has improved a lot.

[heyheymymy]

Easy to say with hindsight but the truth is the Splitter-Duncan pair was atrocious in 2011, clearly backed by stats. It took them a while until they could play together without being huge liabilities. Also 2014 Splitter >> 2011 Splitter, dude has improved a lot.

just splitters FT game improvement from 11 to 12 alone made him look like a different player. and that's just one offseason, he came back for the 12-13 season remarkably better from the FT line. add in understanding the system more, repetition, conditioning and gelling and 11 splitter is miles behind the improved 14 splitter.

also, the fact that manu's injury came at game 82 of 82 in the reg season was an extra hit. if spurs lost him even 2 weeks earlier, they could've gameplanned some alt movement and ball handling. but with one week to prepare before the MEM series, the timing of manu's injury and his importance in 2011 spurs ball movement/running the offense for his unit was just a death knell.

MEM really played well, but those fans should scale back because much the spurs fight was limited from their own end and MEM simply took advantage.

[Obstructed_View]

Easy to say with hindsight but the truth is the Splitter-Duncan pair was atrocious in 2011, clearly backed by stats. It took them a while until they could play together without being huge liabilities. Also 2014 Splitter >> 2011 Splitter, dude has improved a lot.

In 2011, Duncan and Splitter played 30 minutes together. The whole season. That's 1/3 of the minutes Splitter played with Steve Novak. That means the sample size is way too small for the stats to tell you anything. The fact that the Spurs and Duncan have been so good since Splitter started getting minutes trumps any of that. Duncan and Splitter only played 120 minutes together the following year. What's easy to say with hindsight is that was a massive mistake.

2011 Splitter was very effective against Memphis once he was allowed to play, and that's without having gotten the minutes he should have gotten all year long. Splitter's "improvement" came once he was actually given minutes, which turned the team around, and should have happened two years earlier than it did.

[capek]

In 2011, Duncan and Splitter played 30 minutes together. The whole season. That's 1/3 of the minutes Splitter played with Steve Novak. That means the sample size is way too small for the stats to tell you anything. The fact that the Spurs and Duncan have been so good since Splitter started getting minutes trumps any of that. Duncan and Splitter only played 120 minutes together the following year. What's easy to say with hindsight is that was a massive mistake.

2011 Splitter was very effective against Memphis once he was allowed to play, and that's without having gotten the minutes he should have gotten all year long. Splitter's "improvement" came once he was actually given minutes, which turned the team around, and should have happened two years earlier than it did.

Splitter is a big that plays in a similar space to Duncan. The rationale that leaked out at the time for why the Spurs traded Scola was that he was a big who plays in a similar space to Duncan. Maybe Pop is the patriarchal tyrant that makes every one of these decisions, but does it really seem likely that an all-time great would have no impact on the decisions made about something as fundamental as his space on the court, and who is occupying it besides himself? Put it in the context of what happened with D-Rob. What is the likelihood that he would have been expected to give up a chunk of his space on the court to any less of a talent than Tim Duncan?

IMO, all that's accomplished by an activity like re-arbitrating the '11 Memphis series is to illustrate just how difficult it is to quantify the degree to which hindsight distorts the path to a sound conclusion.

[hyhy]

I do understand what they're saying. Pop didn't really have a good series against Memphis in 2011 from an Xs and O's standpoint. The same is true for the Dallas series last year, except he obviously let Splitter play Dirk. Pop's decision to bench Green and put Leonard on Ellis in Game Six is why Dallas forced a Game Seven. I didn't do the stats for that series, but Green was absolutely dominating Monta defensively in that game, and Ellis went off in the final minutes after Green sat. I fear Pop is going to do the same thing this year if the Spurs and Mavs meet in the post-season.

This year they have parsons so Pop may think that putting kawhi on parsons and green on monta made more sense. At least that makes more sense to me.

[wildchild]

I do understand what they're saying. Pop didn't really have a good series against Memphis in 2011 from an Xs and O's standpoint. The same is true for the Dallas series last year, except he obviously let Splitter play Dirk. Pop's decision to bench Green and put Leonard on Ellis in Game Six is why Dallas forced a Game Seven. I didn't do the stats for that series, but Green was absolutely dominating Monta defensively in that game, and Ellis went off in the final minutes after Green sat. I fear Pop is going to do the same thing this year if the Spurs and Mavs meet in the post-season.

I disagree, Dallas forced a game seven because Pop was outcoached by Carlisle's game plan, particularly his defensive schemes and switches.

It took six games to put Danny on Monta but it was because Pop lost his patience with Green's offense -his shot wasn't falling in the first games- and Beli played more/Danny played less minutes than advisable.
But Leonard on Ellis wasn't the reason for the long series, Carlisle's game plan was.

[wildchild]

This year they have parsons so Pop may think that putting kawhi on parsons and green on monta made more sense. At least that makes more sense to me.
Agree. Also, I didn't like how Pop put Kawhi on Harden and Danny on Parsons, it didn't work in regular season.
Kawhi can defend Parsons better than Danny, and vice versa Green on Monta sounds really good.

[Obstructed_View]

IMO, all that's accomplished by an activity like re-arbitrating the '11 Memphis series is to illustrate just how difficult it is to quantify the degree to which hindsight distorts the path to a sound conclusion.

Hindsight confirms what some of us have said from the time Splitter was drafted. He makes the team better on both ends, particularly on defense, and particularly because of the pressure he takes off Duncan. He would have been better to have on the floor from the day he arrived in town. Period. There's no way to distort that. People talking about space seem to think that offensive spacing matters when you have two bigs that play the pick and roll as well as they do. It doesn't. They aren't competing for post space or both standing 15 feet away shooting jumpers. I predicted the Spurs' pick and rolls would become unlike anything we'd ever seen when Splitter was on the floor with Duncan and Manu and Parker. That's what happened. Instead we had a year that he sat on the bench and they decided to mess with his shooting form, which wrecked his free throw shooting for over a year. Wasn't well handled. I'm just grateful that they finally figured it out.

Scola was a power forward When Scola was traded, Duncan had played his entire career at power forward next to true centers. There was a case to be made, since he and Duncan played the same position, though Scola's jumper was far more reliable than anyone was saying at the time, and he would have been a quality addition to any team.

Splitter is a center. Always has been. It's why they play well together.

[Sean Cagney]

Teties you say never forget this or that but the Spurs are champs now so past mistakes here or there is just what it is. Some need to enjoy the title, those are very hard to come by.

[capek]

Hindsight confirms what some of us have said from the time Splitter was drafted. He makes the team better on both ends, particularly on defense, and particularly because of the pressure he takes off Duncan. He would have been better to have on the floor from the day he arrived in town. Period. There's no way to distort that. People talking about space seem to think that offensive spacing matters when you have two bigs that play the pick and roll as well as they do. It doesn't. They aren't competing for post space or both standing 15 feet away shooting jumpers. I predicted the Spurs' pick and rolls would become unlike anything we'd ever seen when Splitter was on the floor with Duncan and Manu and Parker. That's what happened. Instead we had a year that he sat on the bench and they decided to mess with his shooting form, which wrecked his free throw shooting for over a year. Wasn't well handled. I'm just grateful that they finally figured it out.

Scola was a power forward When Scola was traded, Duncan had played his entire career at power forward next to true centers. There was a case to be made, since he and Duncan played the same position, though Scola's jumper was far more reliable than anyone was saying at the time, and he would have been a quality addition to any team.

Splitter is a center. Always has been. It's why they play well together.

They're also, the three of them, just tall men who play basketball.

Anyways, the great thing about your approach is that there's not a thing that can be done to confirm or refute it. Of course, that also works to its detriment, making it rather trivial, at the end of the day.

[Chinook]

I disagree, Dallas forced a game seven because Pop was outcoached by Carlisle's game plan, particularly his defensive schemes and switches.

No. Green held Ellis down for the first 40 minutes of Game Six. Then Pop took him out and Monta went on a run to put Dallas up for good.


It took six games to put Danny on Monta [/QUOTE]

It didn't take six games. Pop put Green on Ellis at times before then. It was at the end of Game Six that Pop made the big mistake of taking Danny out.

[QUOTE]Pop lost his patience with Green's offense -his shot wasn't falling in the first games- and Beli played more/Danny played less minutes than advisable.

Sort of agree, but Green shot well the last three games of the series, I believe. Danny was perfect from the floor in Game Six.


But Leonard on Ellis wasn't the reason for the long series, Carlisle's game plan was.

Carlisle had a great game-plan. But it would have been a short series anyway had Carter missed that shot in Game Three. It would have ended in six had Pop made the right move and kept Green on the floor instead of Leonard in crunchtime. Green and Splitter were destroying Ellis and Dirk as a duo. They just didn't get enough time. I think it was Game Five that Pop inexplicably benched Splitter at the end and almost lost because of it.

[ezau]

Splitter was really instrumental in helping the Spurs sweep Memphis in 2013. He held down Z-Bo and played defense better than any big I've seen alongside Duncan since Robinson.

[exstatic]

Splitter was really instrumental in helping the Spurs sweep Memphis in 2013. He held down Z-Bo and played defense better than any big I've seen alongside Duncan since Robinson.

That wasn't the the same ZBo. He was never really the same after his knee surgery. 2011 ZBo was essentially Dirk with premium rebounding.

[ChumpDumper]

lol spurfan can't go a day without wallowing in a loss one way or another.

[ezau]

That wasn't the the same ZBo. He was never really the same after his knee surgery. 2011 ZBo was essentially Dirk with premium rebounding.

lol no:lol

[exstatic]

lol no:lol

lol yes. He couldn't fucking miss with that jumper. Ever.

[wildchild]

It didn't take six games. Pop put Green on Ellis at times before then.
I referred to most part of the game.


Sort of agree, but Green shot well the last three games of the series, I believe. Danny was perfect from the floor in Game Six.
I know, but even in games when Danny has trouble being effective from a 3-point line, I still want he's out there on the floor.
I have been saying this for a long time
Green's returns and give him more minutes (to come back in the starting lineup) will help, too.
...
Some people don't realize how good on-ball defender is Danny Green and the impact he makes on Spurs defense.
IMO it's not a big deal if Danny's 3's aren't falling if the other team can't score
...
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228044&page=2

[Obstructed_View]

They're also, the three of them, just tall men who play basketball.

Anyways, the great thing about your approach is that there's not a thing that can be done to confirm or refute it. Of course, that also works to its detriment, making it rather trivial, at the end of the day.

The great thing about your ignorance is that no amount of evidence will change your mind. At the end of the day, the facts remain: Splitter is a great defender. Splitter didn't learn how to be a defender by sitting on the bench for two years. Splitter is also great in the pick and roll, as is Duncan. The Spurs went to the finals two years in a row after Splitter became the full-time starting center alongside Duncan, and their defense and offense both improved dramatically. Nothing trivial about any of those.

[Obstructed_View]

lol yes. He couldn't fucking miss with that jumper. Ever.

Funny how letting guys score at will in the paint makes the basket look a lot bigger. Everyone on the Grizzlies had a hard time missing in 2011.

It was very lucky that Zach Randolph apparently had knee surgery between the second and third round of the playoffs, because he went from 20 points per game knocking out Griffin/Jordan and Ibaka/Perkins to 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan.

[testies]

Funny how letting guys score at will in the paint makes the basket look a lot bigger. Everyone on the Grizzlies had a hard time missing in 2011.

It was very lucky that Zach Randolph apparently had knee surgery between the second and third round of the playoffs, because he went from 20 points per game knocking out Griffin/Jordan and Ibaka/Perkins to 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan.

:lol

[Cry Havoc]

Funny how letting guys score at will in the paint makes the basket look a lot bigger. Everyone on the Grizzlies had a hard time missing in 2011.

It was very lucky that Zach Randolph apparently had knee surgery between the second and third round of the playoffs, because he went from 20 points per game knocking out Griffin/Jordan and Ibaka/Perkins to 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan.

This is very similar to how Wade was being talked about as having one of his best playoff runs this year. Until the Finals, when suddenly he's bordering on retirement. Weird how that works and always seems to happen against the Spurs.

[eric365]

Funny how letting guys score at will in the paint makes the basket look a lot bigger. Everyone on the Grizzlies had a hard time missing in 2011.

It was very lucky that Zach Randolph apparently had knee surgery between the second and third round of the playoffs, because he went from 20 points per game knocking out Griffin/Jordan and Ibaka/Perkins to 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan.

I like Splitter and what he has done the past few years. Especially vs LMA this year
But the big difference between the 20 ppg vs Ibaka/Perkins and the 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan in 2013 is that the spurs used constant double team on him while leaving Tony Allen and Prince wiiiide open

ZBO couldn't have the ball more than one sec without double team

[anakha]

I like Splitter and what he has done the past few years. Especially vs LMA this year
But the big difference between the 20 ppg vs Ibaka/Perkins and the 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan in 2013 is that the spurs used constant double team on him while leaving Tony Allen and Prince wiiiide open

ZBO couldn't have the ball more than one sec without double team

Is the argument you're making that double-teaming was the difference between Randolph's performance against the Clippers and against the Spurs? What makes you think that the Clippers didn't employ that tactic?

[tholdren]

Jesus christ. Get the hell off Tiago splitter 's nuts. The guy has a terrible offensive game. And you Homers on here greatly over estimate his defensive game. Blair outplayed him in the Dallas series, and if Blairs dumb ass didn't kick him in the head Dallas would have won. Too inconsistent and let's be real he's a 8 and 6 career player

[testies]

Jesus christ. Get the hell off Tiago splitter 's nuts. The guy has a terrible offensive game. And you Homers on here greatly over estimate his defensive game. Blair outplayed him in the Dallas series, and if Blairs dumb ass didn't kick him in the head Dallas would have won. Too inconsistent and let's be real he's a 8 and 6 career player

hurr durr

[pgardn]

The tremendous hindsight view of Grizz fans and others.
Why is it that things seem so much easier to predict after they have occurred?

[look_at_g_shred]

I like Splitter and what he has done the past few years. Especially vs LMA this year
But the big difference between the 20 ppg vs Ibaka/Perkins and the 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan in 2013 is that the spurs used constant double team on him while leaving Tony Allen and Prince wiiiide open

ZBO couldn't have the ball more than one sec without double team
Don't forget that they were fronting him everytime. He couldn't get good position, and Conley or whoever couldn't feed it to him well.

[jdelar03]

Grizzlies who the fu#$ are they, the new nfl team coming to sa

[ezau]

lol yes. He couldn't fucking miss with that jumper. Ever.

LOL Z-Bo was being defended either by the short Dejuan Blair or the worst version of Tim Duncan. So, NO:lol

[Johnny RIngo]

Jesus christ. Get the hell off Tiago splitter 's nuts. The guy has a terrible offensive game. And you Homers on here greatly over estimate his defensive game. Blair outplayed him in the Dallas series, and if Blairs dumb ass didn't kick him in the head Dallas would have won. Too inconsistent and let's be real he's a 8 and 6 career player

:lol Splitter wasn't the reason we struggled against Dallas. In fact, he was one of our best players that series. It was Parker, Leonard, Mills, and Belli that laid an egg against Dallas.

[capek]

The great thing about your ignorance is that no amount of evidence will change your mind. At the end of the day, the facts remain: Splitter is a great defender. Splitter didn't learn how to be a defender by sitting on the bench for two years. Splitter is also great in the pick and roll, as is Duncan. The Spurs went to the finals two years in a row after Splitter became the full-time starting center alongside Duncan, and their defense and offense both improved dramatically. Nothing trivial about any of those.

Trumped by your ignorance as to what conversation is even being had? :lol

Look, a lot of what you say goes without saying. But still, none of it works as evidence for the claim that we would have done anything that year if Tiago had gotten consistent burn that season. That was a very flawed team. Also, it's in the past, so who gives a fuck?

As an aside, you really think that Tiago is the explanation for why we made the WFC three years in a row, the Finals twice? Really? Fucking hell. He certainly contributed, something else that goes without saying, but if you're going to name one cause, and expect not to be laughed out of the room, that one cause better be the trade for the current FMVP.

Man, a lot of stupid in that post...

[Obstructed_View]

Man, a lot of stupid in that post...

From the guy who blamed Zbo's surgery on his poor performance...

[capek]

From the guy who blamed Zbo's surgery on his poor performance...

:wtf That never happened. Check again.

[Obstructed_View]

I like Splitter and what he has done the past few years. Especially vs LMA this year
But the big difference between the 20 ppg vs Ibaka/Perkins and the 12 ppg against Splitter and Duncan in 2013 is that the spurs used constant double team on him while leaving Tony Allen and Prince wiiiide open

ZBO couldn't have the ball more than one sec without double team

EEEEEEHH. Wrong. Sorry, but that just didn't happen. The Spurs went under screens in game one, there were a few double-teams in game 2, but they weren't from anyone covering Allen or Prince. They were from Parker and Neal (people in the game thread bitched about it the second it started). I think Bayless hit a couple of threes. They didn't do it again. Splitter covered him one on one in game 3, and even with questionable reffing, he was held to 11 points.

[Obstructed_View]

:wtf That never happened. Check again.

Sorry, wasn't you. My bad.

[Obstructed_View]

As an aside, you really think that Tiago is the explanation for why we made the WFC three years in a row, the Finals twice? Really? Fucking hell. He certainly contributed, something else that goes without saying, but if you're going to name one cause, and expect not to be laughed out of the room, that one cause better be the trade for the current FMVP.

As it pertains to the Grizzlies, it's tough to make a case, even though the three spot was way better in 2013. I'm not sure what games you were watching, but Gasol, Randolph and Arthur abused Dice, Blair and Bonner. The roles were completely reversed when they played in 2013. Z-bo was +14 in game 6 in 2011 and was -28 for game 1 in 2013. Bonner was still coming off the bench, it's just Splitter and Diaw next to Duncan in place of Dice and Blair.

[eric365]

EEEEEEHH. Wrong. Sorry, but that just didn't happen. The Spurs went under screens in game one, there were a few double-teams in game 2, but they weren't from anyone covering Allen or Prince. They were from Parker and Neal (people in the game thread bitched about it the second it started). I think Bayless hit a couple of threes. They didn't do it again. Splitter covered him one on one in game 3, and even with questionable reffing, he was held to 11 points.

I would have to watch it again but I'm pretty sure the plan wasn't to leave Mike Conley or Marc Gasol open.

Checking past articles:
http://www.sbnation.com/2013/5/22/4355560/grizzlies-spurs-western-conference-finals-analysis-quincy-pondexter
The Bayless/Pondexter combination doesn't start for Memphis, of course, because Lionel Hollins prefers the defense of the Tony Allen/Tayshaun Prince duo. But the problem is that the Spurs are cheating off those two players (more so Prince than Allen) to prevent the Grizzlies from running their patented post offense. It's the same formula San Antonio used against the Lakers, and it had been working the same way.

http://www.espnsa.com/Why-the-Spurs-Will-Beat-Memphis-and-Why-They-May-N/14534577?pid=325729
-The Grizzlies can’t shoot. We know Memphis struggles to score, and the Spurs excellent defense so far has compounded this problem. San Antonio held the Grizz to just 34% shooting in game two. Zach Randolph has made just 7 of 26 field goal attempts through two games, while Memphis starters Tayshaun Prince and Tony Allen don’t look like they have a clue offensively right now. Those two have been so bad that the Spurs barely even bother to guard them, instead using their defender to help muck things up in the lane and double the post.

[Obstructed_View]

I would have to watch it again but I'm pretty sure the plan wasn't to leave Mike Conley or Marc Gasol open.

Checking past articles:
http://www.sbnation.com/2013/5/22/4355560/grizzlies-spurs-western-conference-finals-analysis-quincy-pondexter
The Bayless/Pondexter combination doesn't start for Memphis, of course, because Lionel Hollins prefers the defense of the Tony Allen/Tayshaun Prince duo. But the problem is that the Spurs are cheating off those two players (more so Prince than Allen) to prevent the Grizzlies from running their patented post offense. It's the same formula San Antonio used against the Lakers, and it had been working the same way.

http://www.espnsa.com/Why-the-Spurs-Will-Beat-Memphis-and-Why-They-May-N/14534577?pid=325729
-The Grizzlies can’t shoot. We know Memphis struggles to score, and the Spurs excellent defense so far has compounded this problem. San Antonio held the Grizz to just 34% shooting in game two. Zach Randolph has made just 7 of 26 field goal attempts through two games, while Memphis starters Tayshaun Prince and Tony Allen don’t look like they have a clue offensively right now. Those two have been so bad that the Spurs barely even bother to guard them, instead using their defender to help muck things up in the lane and double the post.


You're right. I found this as well...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/sports/basketball/nba-playoffs-spurs-use-motion-and-misdirection-to-lead-grizzlies.html?_r=0

[eric365]

You're right. I found this as well...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/sports/basketball/nba-playoffs-spurs-use-motion-and-misdirection-to-lead-grizzlies.html?_r=0

No problem :bobo

Back to the point, spurs used Kawhi and Danny to front or / and double team ZBO and that's the main difference between 2011 and 2013
But Splitter has been really great on D in many other series especially vs LMA this year. The dude was Dirk on steroid in the first round and he was well controlled by Splitter

[DMC]

Hold on...The Grizzlies have a forum??? Why...???
Yeah it's called Topix, Memphis edition. You can check scores or score crack cocaine.

[Obstructed_View]

No problem :bobo

Back to the point, spurs used Kawhi and Danny to front or / and double team ZBO and that's the main difference between 2011 and 2013
But Splitter has been really great on D in many other series especially vs LMA this year. The dude was Dirk on steroid in the first round and he was well controlled by Splitter

We may just have to agree to disagree on this. Fronting and face guarding is great, but it works because of the personnel on the floor. You can't run that strategy when Bonner is on Randolph. With Splitter, Duncan is not having to play out of position, doesn't have to help, doesn't have to try to cover the entire painted area and can focus on defending the other big, which is huge for the team. With Splitter, the Spurs went from having to scramble to cover for teammates that were getting destroyed to being able to pick and choose who to leave and when to do it. The Spurs were double teaming for strategic advantage when it suited them, not to try to keep Randolph from going off. It's a great strategy, but it doesn't hold Randolph to 2 points in a playoff game if you don't have a primary defender capable of at least staying with him and frustrating his shots.

[diego]

it also didnt hurt that parker made a point to kill the grizz in 2013, after getting outplayed by conley in 2011 (ok not quite outplayed, but parker underperformed badly)

the 09-11 spurs were horribly constructed, the frontcourt was completely dysfunctional and it was grinding duncan down to the point that half this board was ready to stick a fork in him, and even the backcourt despite prime tony and some of the most productive years of manu (aside from 09 which he barely played and 11 which he got injured at the worst possible moment) after that, the rest of the wings were a joke:
11- jefferson/hill/neal
10- jefferson/hill/bogans/mason
09- mason/finley/bowen (37 years old, 6th most minutes on the team for the season)/hill

we went from dice and blair, to splitter and diaw (who is IMO equally or even more important than tiago).
from jefferson hill bogans mason, to mills green leonard belinelli.

Congrats to pop and RC for figuring it out, criticism is childish now that they just won, but it was a rough road getting here, the 2010 and 11 playoffs were painful. i dont think splitter would have necessarily been THE difference but it certainly would have helped if pop integrated him sooner and played him instead of dice and blair sooner, it was painfully obvious they werent good enough and dont get me started on jefferson.

[Silver&Black]

Yeah it's called Topix, Memphis edition. You can check scores or score crack cocaine.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

I'll give that response a 9.3/10

[Purch]

The bolded part is the argument against your first sentence. Splitter rotted on the bench during that series, so Bonner/Blair wouldn't have logged significant minutes Nobody was dominant in the NBA that year. First year of Miami being together. Manu's arm would have gotten better as time went on. History shows that the Spurs are far better with Splitter in the rotation than without. The Spurs were 3-1 against Dallas in the regular season and 3-0 against OKC even the way Pop put them out on the floor. I think that was clearly the second title left on the table by Pop's personnel decisions.


You don't think it's a pretty big jump to assume that winning a first round series would translate to you guys winning the next 3 rounds.... That seems like quite a big jump for me

[DMC]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

I'll give that response a 9.3/10
If you've ever tried to walk around the Peabody hotel area, you've been offered drugs a dozen times in one night.

[Obstructed_View]

You don't think it's a pretty big jump to assume that winning a first round series would translate to you guys winning the next 3 rounds.... That seems like quite a big jump for me

That's a good point, and normally I'd agree with you. Keep in mind that it's just my opinion, anyway, but I'll explain my thinking:

There are two times in memory where the 8 seed matched up very well with the 1 seed, so much so that they positioned themselves to get there. 2006 Golden State against Dallas, and 2011 Memphis against San Antonio. The Grizzlies got an extra bonus when Manu got hurt in the last game of the season. There were no dominant teams in the league that year. Miami was vulnerable. Splitter has proven to be a major upgrade to the front line. Just like Mavs fans likely think their team missed a golden championship opportunity in 2007, I think the Spurs missed out in 2011. At the time, I actually thought it was the last sliver of open window for the Spurs. Thank the basketball gods for dropping Kawhi in our lap.

[Sean Cagney]

That's a good point, and normally I'd agree with you. Keep in mind that it's just my opinion, anyway, but I'll explain my thinking:

There are two times in memory where the 8 seed matched up very well with the 1 seed, so much so that they positioned themselves to get there. 2006 Golden State against Dallas, and 2011 Memphis against San Antonio. The Grizzlies got an extra bonus when Manu got hurt in the last game of the season. There were no dominant teams in the league that year. Miami was vulnerable. Splitter has proven to be a major upgrade to the front line. Just like Mavs fans likely think their team missed a golden championship opportunity in 2007, I think the Spurs missed out in 2011. At the time, I actually thought it was the last sliver of open window for the Spurs. Thank the basketball gods for dropping Kawhi in our lap.
That 011 team was a team relying on three balls to fall and ran a fluke offense IMO, was not a fan at all and the started to unfold as the season went on and showing major cracks even before the playoffs.

The 012 team when they started running the newer offense they use today with the ball movement was far better and equipped to win a title, it got better in 013 and in 2014 but I disagree on the 011 team being a lock for a title if they passed the first round. I agree on Manu being out in game one and they probably do beat Memphis if he is healthy that game and end that one in 5 or 6 games, losing that game one was really bad.

Dallas caught fire in the playoffs in 2011, 3-1 vs. them or not (I thought we were 2-2?) that means nothing when a team catches fire in the playoffs and that they did and their shots were falling, not so sure we just blow by them in the playoffs by any means, it would be TOUGH. I disagree fully on 011, not my fave Spurs team by any stretch of the means. Kawhi was not there yet either, they got ALOT better when he joined the team and you see the result so I am glad you mention him at the end as he and Danny Green were that difference we needed which was missing.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

I still dont buy the whole “tiago" was injured bullshit. Pop was just being his stubborn old self per par, playing his dumb little mind games. He's doing the same shit to baynes fwiw.

[Obstructed_View]

That 011 team was a team relying on three balls to fall and ran a fluke offense IMO, was not a fan at all and the started to unfold as the season went on and showing major cracks even before the playoffs.

The 012 team when they started running the newer offense they use today with the ball movement was far better and equipped to win a title, it got better in 013 and in 2014 but I disagree on the 011 team being a lock for a title if they passed the first round. I agree on Manu being out in game one and they probably do beat Memphis if he is healthy that game and end that one in 5 or 6 games, losing that game one was really bad.

Dallas caught fire in the playoffs in 2011, 3-1 vs. them or not (I thought we were 2-2?) that means nothing when a team catches fire in the playoffs and that they did and their shots were falling, not so sure we just blow by them in the playoffs by any means, it would be TOUGH. I disagree fully on 011, not my fave Spurs team by any stretch of the means. Kawhi was not there yet either, they got ALOT better when he joined the team and you see the result so I am glad you mention him at the end as he and Danny Green were that difference we needed which was missing.
Well Kawhi is awesome. You'll find no bigger fan of him than me. He extended the Spurs window for sure, but he didn't do it all by himself. Warts and all, Splitter is the best Spurs center since Robinson retired, and I don't think it's even close.

I don't know that it would have been a cakewalk under any circumstances in 2011, but the Grizzlies were the single team that matched up really favorably against the 2011 Spurs, and it's all because the Spurs didn't have size or defense on their front line. Notice that the Mavericks with Tyson Chandler suddenly did what the Spurs could not.

The offense has developed because they have great screen and roll players, and that starts with good screens.

[Sean Cagney]

Well Kawhi is awesome. You'll find no bigger fan of him than me. He extended the Spurs window for sure, but he didn't do it all by himself. Warts and all, Splitter is the best Spurs center since Robinson retired, and I don't think it's even close.

I don't know that it would have been a cakewalk under any circumstances in 2011, but the Grizzlies were the single team that matched up really favorably against the 2011 Spurs, and it's all because the Spurs didn't have size or defense on their front line. Notice that the Mavericks with Tyson Chandler suddenly did what the Spurs could not.

The offense has developed because they have great screen and roll players, and that starts with good screens.
True, but I was not a fan of Neal getting mins out there and Bonner getting alot of mins, that part hurt the offense at times bigtime (Neal was not a passer lets face it). Like you said it was a few things, one being Splitter getting minutes and that matched us up WELL with Memphis and that shows now. Kawhi getting drafted and Danny Greens role, those three things were huge the next few years for the Spurs and key to the last two or three runs they had.

I did not like who was getting mins on the 011 alot of times from old Dice, Bonner (He was not used right then) and Neal etc. The last few years the team was way better and fully equipped for a run and look what happened! I just thought the 011 team was smoke and mirrors at times and broke down the last month of the year, that is just my opinion though.

[Obstructed_View]

True, but I was not a fan of Neal getting mins out there and Bonner getting alot of mins, that part hurt the offense at times bigtime (Neal was not a passer lets face it). Like you said it was a few things, one being Splitter getting minutes and that matched us up WELL with Memphis and that shows now. Kawhi getting drafted and Danny Greens role, those three things were huge the next few years for the Spurs and key to the last two or three runs they had.

I did not like who was getting mins on the 011 alot of times from old Dice, Bonner (He was not used right then) and Neal etc. The last few years the team was way better and fully equipped for a run and look what happened! I just thought the 011 team was smoke and mirrors at times and broke down the last month of the year, that is just my opinion though.
I wasn't really a fan of Hill, tbh. He showed flashes of being a defender, but he regressed toward Parker and didn't have the offense, shooting or passing ability to make up for it like Parker does. Bonner as a rotation guy is a disaster, but he's all right as a change of pace. I don't think 2011 was a lock like 2006 was, but the Spurs were the best team in the league for the season, so they at least had a chance if they could have gotten past that one team that just had the tools to beat them as they were configured.

[Sean Cagney]

I wasn't really a fan of Hill, tbh. He showed flashes of being a defender, but he regressed toward Parker and didn't have the offense, shooting or passing ability to make up for it like Parker does. Bonner as a rotation guy is a disaster, but he's all right as a change of pace. I don't think 2011 was a lock like 2006 was, but the Spurs were the best team in the league for the season, so they at least had a chance if they could have gotten past that one team that just had the tools to beat them as they were configured.
Agreed on all accounts man, we are on the same page.

[Purch]

But then why would you assume they get past the Mavs in 2011 who were a better team than this Mavs this years (who took a better spurs team to 7)? The Spurs dominanted the Mavs in the regular season this year, yet the playoffs were a completly different story. If Carsile was able to come up with schemes to disrupt the Spurs offense and defense when it was significantly better this year, why would you think he couldn't on a much weaker 2011 spurs team? Not to mention 2011 Dirk was significantly better than the Dirk you guys faced this yea, whiles 2011 was the worse season of Duncan's career along with Manu's injury

[baseline bum]

The bolded part is the argument against your first sentence. Splitter rotted on the bench during that series, so Bonner/Blair wouldn't have logged significant minutes Nobody was dominant in the NBA that year. First year of Miami being together. Manu's arm would have gotten better as time went on. History shows that the Spurs are far better with Splitter in the rotation than without. The Spurs were 3-1 against Dallas in the regular season and 3-0 against OKC even the way Pop put them out on the floor. I think that was clearly the second title left on the table by Pop's personnel decisions.

That 2011 team ran out of gas way before the Ginobili injury and got an inflated record by going balls out the first 3 months of the season. They were a little better version of the 2013-14 Pacers and Dallas would have mopped the floor with them.

[Purch]

Actually now that I think about it there was very little chance of that spurs team getting past that Mavs team

[Beaverfuzz]

Fuck them...They lost, deal with it.

[Beaverfuzz]

Actually now that I think about it there was very little chance of that spurs team getting past that Mavs team

Yes, that Mavs team was unstoppable. Worked Miami to the bone in the Finals.

[Obstructed_View]

But then why would you assume they get past the Mavs in 2011 who were a better team than this Mavs this years (who took a better spurs team to 7)? The Spurs dominanted the Mavs in the regular season this year, yet the playoffs were a completly different story. If Carsile was able to come up with schemes to disrupt the Spurs offense and defense when it was significantly better this year, why would you think he couldn't on a much weaker 2011 spurs team? Not to mention 2011 Dirk was significantly better than the Dirk you guys faced this yea, whiles 2011 was the worse season of Duncan's career along with Manu's injury
Sorry, bud, but I simply disagree. The Spurs didn't show up in 2014 because they completely overmatched the Mavericks. Vince Carter had the playoff series of his life (Gee, you'd think it was a contract year for him), and Dejuan Blair played with the fire we know so well, that only comes from personal motivation. They still got run out of the series by the Spurs once they decided to play.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with it. The Spurs matched up poorly with the Grizzlies, who played out of their minds from top to bottom, and the Spurs lost in six games with Manu playing with one arm and no Splitter in the rotation. Credit to the Mavs for winning a title, but they took advantage of a weak NBA and a Spurs team that shit the bed from a personnel standpoint, IMHO.

[Obstructed_View]

That 2011 team ran out of gas way before the Ginobili injury and got an inflated record by going balls out the first 3 months of the season. They were a little better version of the 2013-14 Pacers and Dallas would have mopped the floor with them.

Dice and Bonner ran out of gas. They'd have been far better with Splitter.