Woj: Kawhi Wants Max Contract Extension; No Progress Made in Talks With Spurs

[apalisoc_9]

Well, HH's argument is tough to make in a linear fashion. Sure, the Spurs have proven they can win without a traditional big 3 and as a team, but the questions are two-fold:

1) While the Spurs have won that way, how sustainable is that? It's incredibly rare and almost never been done before.

2) With #1 in mind, did the Spurs system work because of the players they currently have being superstars who were able to unselfishly shift their games to make the system work?

So I don't think it's at all safe to assume that SA, with Tim/TP/Manu gone that they can go on winning with the same strategy because it doesn't seem at all likely you can get a DPG combo again to make that work. Just really tough. Kawhi should be a Spur, but just because other dumb teams make dumb decisions, does not make that market value.

Spurs have to avoid stupid decisions in a small market with their stars on their way out. That would be like saying me buying a 200K house for 1M sets the market for the entire neighborhood. Sure, some idiots may buy the houses at that value, but it doesn't make it a good finanical decision or that every house will go for that much. I understand that some team will make that offer and that's fine - the right thing to do is wait and match that offer then.

Did you just make an analogy between houses and players...:lol

[DPG21920]

Yes, I did.

[apalisoc_9]

Yes, I did.

Well that was terrible...

[DPG21920]

Well that was terrible...

Why?

[spurraider21]

Well, HH's argument is tough to make in a linear fashion. Sure, the Spurs have proven they can win without a traditional big 3 and as a team, but the questions are two-fold:

1) While the Spurs have won that way, how sustainable is that? It's incredibly rare and almost never been done before.

2) With #1 in mind, did the Spurs system work because of the players they currently have being superstars who were able to unselfishly shift their games to make the system work?

So I don't think it's at all safe to assume that SA, with Tim/TP/Manu gone that they can go on winning with the same strategy because it doesn't seem at all likely you can get a DPG combo again to make that work. Just really tough. Kawhi should be a Spur, but just because other dumb teams make dumb decisions, does not make that market value.

Spurs have to avoid stupid decisions in a small market with their stars on their way out. That would be like saying me buying a 200K house for 1M sets the market for the entire neighborhood. Sure, some idiots may buy the houses at that value, but it doesn't make it a good finanical decision or that every house will go for that much. I understand that some team will make that offer and that's fine - the right thing to do is wait and match that offer then.
i literally just understood what your username is :lol...

im usually not that slow, although i rarely actually bored over it

[itzsoweezee]

Well, HH's argument is tough to make in a linear fashion. Sure, the Spurs have proven they can win without a traditional big 3 and as a team, but the questions are two-fold:

1) While the Spurs have won that way, how sustainable is that? It's incredibly rare and almost never been done before.

2) With #1 in mind, did the Spurs system work because of the players they currently have being superstars who were able to unselfishly shift their games to make the system work?

So I don't think it's at all safe to assume that SA, with Tim/TP/Manu gone that they can go on winning with the same strategy because it doesn't seem at all likely you can get a DPG combo again to make that work. Just really tough. Kawhi should be a Spur, but just because other dumb teams make dumb decisions, does not make that market value.

Spurs have to avoid stupid decisions in a small market with their stars on their way out. That would be like saying me buying a 200K house for 1M sets the market for the entire neighborhood. Sure, some idiots may buy the houses at that value, but it doesn't make it a good finanical decision or that every house will go for that much. I understand that some team will make that offer and that's fine - the right thing to do is wait and match that offer then.

Small market teams can't afford to let players like Kawhi get away because free agents are simply not going to come to San Antonio. You guys need to realize that if they don't spend this money on Kawhi, it's probably going to be wasted on scrubs.

[DPG21920]

i literally just understood what your username is :lol...

im usually not that slow, although i rarely actually bored over it

Haha - yup. Straightforward and catchy.

[DPG21920]

Small market teams can't afford to let players like Kawhi get away because free agents are simply not going to come to San Antonio. You guys need to realize that if they don't spend this money on Kawhi, it's probably going to be wasted on scrubs.

I'm not arguing lettting him go. Also, Spurs have gotten plenty of FA's and never really had the money to go after major ones. A few have gotten away, I agree, but nothing at the level we are discussing outside of once or twice.

[itzsoweezee]

i literally just understood what your username is :lol...

im usually not that slow, although i rarely actually bored over it

lol. until now, i always thought it stood for dog pound gangster. i guess i've listened to doggystyle too much.

[Kool Bob Love]

i literally just understood what your username is :lol...

im usually not that slow, although i rarely actually bored over it

:rollin Woah.

[DPG21920]

lol. until now, i always thought it stood for dog pound gangster. i guess i've listened to doggystyle too much.

It can be whatever you need it to be.

[Chinook]

1) While the Spurs have won that way, how sustainable is that? It's incredibly rare and almost never been done before.

The Spurs won by being far more talented than any other team in the league. If they find a way to keep their talent edge, and that talent buys in, they have as good a chance as any to be a contender for a while, especially since they match up well with pretty much any team. But they absolutely need to get the talent, which is why re-upping Leonard now is potentially destructive. They need to bring in a star or two very good players, and Kawhi being extended is literally wasting $7-8 Million in cap space.


2) With #1 in mind, did the Spurs system work because of the players they currently have being superstars who were able to unselfishly shift their games to make the system work?

That's a concern. Finding the talent really isn't going to be that big of an issue, I believe. I do think an SA max offer is something most players are going to heavily consider. There's no question in my mind that Gasol would be in Cen-Tex now had the Spurs had been able to match what Chicago offered. The biggest issue when looking at the 2015 FA class is finding someone who fits what the team wants/needs in terms of talent and culture. Even if players like Aldridge and Love think they will be able to buy in, they may not be able to have the reduced roles Tim and Manu have taken (and they may not need to, but that's another topic).


So I don't think it's at all safe to assume that SA, with Tim/TP/Manu gone that they can go on winning with the same strategy because it doesn't seem at all likely you can get a DPG combo again to make that work. Just really tough. Kawhi should be a Spur, but just because other dumb teams make dumb decisions, does not make that market value.

True. Parker/Leonard/Aldridge seems like they can get it done from a talent perspective (with all the other role-players returning). But that'll be nothing like the current Big Three. I imagine they'll go back to an older philosophy, since they'd have a star offensive big who can score at will and who would be surrounded by shooting. I don't think there's any way in hell the Spurs should try to keep with their same strategy once Tim retires, which is why I think the idea of signing Gasol is a non-starter. However, if they strike out in free agency, then bringing in O'Quinn and a starting-caliber SG may force them to try to keep going the same old way. At that point, the Spurs have to hope that the youngsters can grow into stars, meaning beyond what Kawhi currently is.


Spurs have to avoid stupid decisions in a small market with their stars on their way out. That would be like saying me buying a 200K house for 1M sets the market for the entire neighborhood. Sure, some idiots may buy the houses at that value, but it doesn't make it a good finanical decision or that every house will go for that much. I understand that some team will make that offer and that's fine - the right thing to do is wait and match that offer then.

Eh, I've long maintained the stance that contracts only matter in terms of opportunity cost. Leonard's contract size doesn't matter at all if the Spurs are still able to add a star in 2015 and in 2017. That's why avoiding giving him an extension is so critical now. It doesn't matter how much he's overpaid so long as he doesn't ink the deal until after the Spurs go shopping in July.

[DPG21920]

True ^ my house analogy was more to say the Spurs have little margin for error with their market. They have to pay the right guys and do things at the right time.

[apalisoc_9]

Why?

Opportunity cost..How often do you get the chance to sign the third best SG in the league? There's millions of houses to sell...

[SnakeBoy]

I might open a can of worms with this question, but would you guys say Kawhi > Paul George?

Because if you think he is, then I think a max deal should be automatic, if you don't think he is, then it's probably more debatable...

I'd put George ahead of Leonard but I think the real question for the front office is can the Spurs replace Leonard without paying the max. I don't think they can.

[DPG21920]

Opportunity cost..How often do you get the chance to sign the third best SG in the league? There's millions of houses to sell...

Missing the point. It was about market value and financially wise decisions (both timing of the market and value vs what market is doing i.e. buying a home on the upswing/highpoint, vs waiting),

[GrandeDavid]

No hate on Kawhi but if they give him the max and he becomes our best and most expensive player (post Duncan era) we'll be fighting to make the playoffs. Take a discount Kawhi you don't need/deserve a Max contract.

Well-stated! You are so right. It's hard to believe Kawhi Leonard is seeking a max contract with his 12.5 average. Yes, he's a great defender and took advantage of Miami's collapse, but good grief!

Thanks Kawhi.

[RD2191]

No player that the Spurs can sign in free agency will be as good a 2 way player as Kawhi. Some of you dudes are delusional.

[spurraider21]

No player that the Spurs can sign in free agency will be as good a 2 way player as Kawhi. Some of you dudes are delusional.
yeah and his game has really evolved since his rookie season

[eDizzle20]

Leonard will have an opportunity to prove he is worth max money this season and that his offensive numbers in the finals were not a fluke. I think Leonard really needs to get 34-35 minutes a game. This season will be huge for him show if he has a one-on-one game. If he develops an offensive game like Paul George he is well worth it.

[100%duncan]

ElNono

Kawhi>George

[therealtruth]

This is looking like James Harden all over again. I thought the Spurs way was to give up a little money because of loyalty?

[RD2191]

yeah and his game has really evolved since his rookie season
God given, tbh.:wakeup

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Jesus people, his agent is paid money to get the best deal possible. I doubt Kawhi has some huge ego and is gonna hold the Spurs hostage. In fact, none of you can produce a single quote saying Kawhi is unhappy with the organization. I would bet the house he loves it here and that Pop wont be staying long without him. He wont leave, Spurs arent the rockets, this will get taken care of properly. Yall just cling on to the slightest bit of news and act like schoolgirls and dramatize it because this team doesnt produce enough gossip for you.

[cjw]

No player that the Spurs can sign in free agency will be as good a 2 way player as Kawhi. Some of you dudes are delusional.

Half of this board thinks that Anthony Davis is about to hit free agency (not to mention that Marc Gasol is a viable option)...

[Richie]

Half of this board thinks that Anthony Davis is about to hit free agency (not to mention that Marc Gasol is a viable option)...

If Mar Gasol decides to test free agency I don't see why he wouldn't consider the Spurs. The likelihood of course is that he straight up re-signs with the Grizz though.

[Kool Bob Love]

Jesus people, his agent is paid money to get the best deal possible. I doubt Kawhi has some huge ego and is gonna hold the Spurs hostage. In fact, none of you can produce a single quote saying Kawhi is unhappy with the organization. I would bet the house he loves it here and that Pop wont be staying long without him. He wont leave, Spurs arent the rockets, this will get taken care of properly. Yall just cling on to the slightest bit of news and act like schoolgirls and dramatize it because this team doesnt produce enough gossip for you.

You always come correct player. :tu

[cjw]

If Mar Gasol decides to test free agency I don't see why he wouldn't consider the Spurs. The likelihood of course is that he straight up re-signs with the Grizz though.

Exactly, but there are some out there who mark it as a given that both will be UFAs and genuinely test the market. Marc is obviously much more likely in the next half decade.

[BatManu20]

Marc Gasol, from everything I've read, loves Memphis and will likely re-sign there.

[Richie]

Marc Gasol, from everything I've read, loves Memphis and will likely re-sign there.

This has really only come from Bill Simmons after he said he thought there was no way Gasol was leaving. He might be right, but the team isn't so good that it's a lock. Compare that to Aldridge who I thought was a lock to leave before Lillard got drafted, now I don't see any way he decides to leave.

[spurraider21]

delaying a Leonard signing until next offseason gives us additional room to make moves if Duncan/Manu retire... worst comes to worst we can match anything he's offered then. so it makes no sense to give him a max extension now. the only way he gets an extension now is if its a team friendly deal. it doesn't make sense for kawhi to take less on his first contract, so i'd just expect a max contract next offseason

[T Park]

It's the time to show him the money when he becomes consistent on both ends of the floor. as of this moment, he's only shown glimpses of his overall potential. purs would only be foolish to offer him the max until he proves himself.

Agreed 100%

[littlecoyotecoin]

God given, tbh.:wakeup

Intelligently designed.

[exstatic]

Everyone believed that Houston would match any offer for Parsons. It just takes one team, the Lakers come to mind, that's willing to tie up their cap space for 72 hours.

Parsons is EASILY one of the most over rated players in the NBA. For his three year career, his PER is 15.0, DEAD ON the NBA average. He is an average player who plays no defense at all. Being a huge proponent of advanced stats, I'm sure there was no way Morey was matching Cuban's throwdown offer. Kawhi's three year PER is 17.6, and it was 19.4 last year and he was NBA All defense. THE SPURS WILL ABSOLUTELY MATCH ANY OFFER FOR KAWHI LEONARD.

[exstatic]

This has really only come from Bill Simmons after he said he thought there was no way Gasol was leaving. He might be right, but the team isn't so good that it's a lock. Compare that to Aldridge who I thought was a lock to leave before Lillard got drafted, now I don't see any way he decides to leave.

Portland is SO THIN that one injury of any length could cost them the playoffs in the WC. What then? That would kind of make last year an aberration.

[Richie]

Portland is SO THIN that one injury of any length could cost them the playoffs in the WC. What then? That would kind of make last year an aberration.

You might be right, but I just feel Lillard has so much potential that Aldridge will be hesitant to leave him. I don't see them as legit contenders as they are currently built so maybe Aldridge will at least talk to other teams, but at the end of the day I expect he'll take the 5 year max.

[ceperez]

delaying a Leonard signing until next offseason gives us additional room to make moves if Duncan/Manu retire... worst comes to worst we can match anything he's offered then. so it makes no sense to give him a max extension now. the only way he gets an extension now is if its a team friendly deal. it doesn't make sense for kawhi to take less on his first contract, so i'd just expect a max contract next offseason

Sounds right. Unless Kawhi's agent can agree on a team friendly deal then there's no need to sign until he's a FA. Let other teams bid for him then.

By that time, you won't have Manu and Tim's contracts to worry about.

[Chinook]

You might be right, but I just feel Lillard has so much potential that Aldridge will be hesitant to leave him. I don't see them as legit contenders as they are currently built so maybe Aldridge will at least talk to other teams, but at the end of the day I expect he'll take the 5 year max.

I don't know if Lillard has more potential than Leonard, who's a year younger and already has a fMVP. I think the money would be the biggest draw to stay, that and maybe the stigma against going to a ready-made contender. If Aldridge entertains offers, which I think he will if Portland doesn't improve this season, I don't see how the Spurs aren't at the front of the line: proven championship-level supporting cast, close to home, and system where he can get his shots without breaking the offense, Pop.

There are a couple of things to watch. One is that Aldridge may follow in James' footsteps in signing a short deal if the cap doesn't have a mini jump next summer. He seems sensitive to the fact that he only has one more big-money deal left, so he may not want to use it with the smaller cap. If a team like the Spurs can show him a plan for reupping him in 2016 or 2017 with the new space, maybe he takes their one-year contract over Portland's one-year.

Along those lines, the Blazers are also looking to use 2015 cap space, which they should have pretty easily. That means they may be able to bring in another strong free agent to keep Aldridge from straying. But that also means that their roster will be in limbo for a couple of weeks. The Spurs' roster will be relatively intact, save for Tim and Manu potentially retiring, obviously. I don't think there's any way Portland's July 1, 2015 roster looks anywhere near as good as SA's.

[100%duncan]

Aldridge would be perfect. The closest player to TD in this generation.

[DPG21920]

Aldridge would be perfect. The closest player to TD in this generation.

Wow - people really overrate LA on this board. Overrating him doesn't mean he isn't good, but he's not a defensive anchor and lives on jumpers which aren't always going to be sustainable. He's not Dirk level good offensively and he is not very good defensively either.

He's obviously someone you can have success with with the right pieces around him; he's that talented.

[Killakobe81]

Wow - people really overrate LA on this board. Overrating him doesn't mean he isn't good, but he's not a defensive anchor and lives on jumpers which aren't always going to be sustainable. He's not Dirk level good offensively and he is not very good defensively either.

He's obviously someone you can have success with with the right pieces around him; he's that talented.

Im with DPG.
Just because everyone overpays for a house, 4K TV doesnt mean you have you (Spurs) should. Getting value like they did with diaw/Grren etc is critical. They have KL's rights. they can match any offer as a RFA. unless it pisses him off where he wont re-sign Spurs lose nothing by waiting. IF a PG injury happens would you be glad the spurs waited? No he is not a max player yet, but spurs can watch him develop this year and then make a decision.

Note: I hate people acting as KL is being greedy here. He has leverage has never made Tim duncan type money ...why should he take less when scrubs are getting max deals?

[Darius McCrary]

lil DPG gonna DPG

This is why it was so ignorant when people were hoping Kawhi would get MVP

[ohmwrecker]

Give the kid his money.

[Ice009]

lil DPG gonna DPG

This is why it was so ignorant when people were hoping Kawhi would get MVP

Kawhi getting MVP means that the Spurs were likely to have won the Championship. That was the goal. Spurs needed him to raise his game in the finals and he did it. I would never trade that just so he can get paid less. That's fucking idiotic.

[Darius McCrary]

Shoulda been Duncan, tbh

[Chomag]

You cant just go by raw stats when KL usually doesn't get the greenlight in the offence. We saw what happens when he did in the finals.

It's about what is impactfull in the game and KL has his share of that. Maybe we will see more going through him if the starting PG would stop ignoring him.

[100%duncan]

Wow - people really overrate LA on this board. Overrating him doesn't mean he isn't good, but he's not a defensive anchor and lives on jumpers which aren't always going to be sustainable. He's not Dirk level good offensively and he is not very good defensively either.

He's obviously someone you can have success with with the right pieces around him; he's that talented.

I dont think I overrated him. Obviously noone would really come close to Timmy. But who else is comparable? Love? Meh statpadding loser who is worse defensively. AD? Too early to tell. Amare? No. Idk who.

And if you think of it, a LmA KL TP Green Tiago Patty core wouldnt be so bad post TD Manu. A contender tbh, lebron will decline and who knows?

[100%duncan]

Im with DPG.
Just because everyone overpays for a house, 4K TV doesnt mean you have you (Spurs) should. Getting value like they did with diaw/Grren etc is critical. They have KL's rights. they can match any offer as a RFA. unless it pisses him off where he wont re-sign Spurs lose nothing by waiting. IF a PG injury happens would you be glad the spurs waited? No he is not a max player yet, but spurs can watch him develop this year and then make a decision.

Note: I hate people acting as KL is being greedy here. He has leverage has never made Tim duncan type money ...why should he take less when scrubs are getting max deals?

Your 2nd paragraph clashes with your first thought and DPG's stance in this matter imho

[Mel_13]

THE SPURS WILL ABSOLUTELY MATCH ANY OFFER FOR KAWHI LEONARD.

No need to underline and shout the incredibly obvious.

[Killakobe81]

Your 2nd paragraph clashes with your first thought and DPG's stance in this matter imho

If understood DPG, he was saying what impetus do the spurs have to offer the max right now? He is restricted. As a small market team they need to spend wisely. they have him locked this year and next with QO. then can evaluate further and offer him the max next year or match a RFA offer.

Only negative is maybe it pisses off KL or his agent. But if they are not understanding, is that the kind of star you want to build around? I dont blame him for wanting max but dont blame the Spurs for hesitating. Both are doing what they should in a negotiation. Also, I feel DPG is saying that just because Utah is dumb, spurs should not follow because of it and only pay KL max if THEY feel it is justified.

But again the flip-side is from a player/agent perspective how can you NOT look at the Hayward/Bledsoe/Parsons contracts?!

[Brunodf]

:lolAnd people thought that Kawhi wouldn't demand a max contract after that ridiculous TP contract...:lol

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Spurs are playing this smart. They won't sign him until after the season. This way they can extend his deal long into to big revenue (salary cap) bump that will occur in 2016.

It makes all the sense in the world to sign Kawhi next offseason and give him for full five year extension. Plus it gives to Spurs an opportunity to see if his play improves and his knee hold up.

[Mel_13]

Spurs are playing this smart. They won't sign him until after the season. This way they can extend his deal long into to big revenue (salary cap) bump that will occur in 2016.

It makes all the sense in the world to sign Kawhi next offseason and give him for full five year extension. Plus it gives to Spurs an opportunity to see if his play improves and his knee hold up.

Nothing changes with respect to the maximum length of the deal by waiting until next summer.

[DPG21920]

Your 2nd paragraph clashes with your first thought and DPG's stance in this matter imho

Not true. I'm not advocating letting Kawhi walk at all. I'm discussing the risks and timing more than anything. I've said on multiple occasions I don't think he's a max player at the moment but I don't mind paying him when the time is right. Just don't bid against yourself.

[DPG21920]

lil DPG gonna DPG

This is why it was so ignorant when people were hoping Kawhi would get MVP

Is that good?

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Nothing changes as far as to the maximum length of the deal by waiting until next summer.

Exactly. There is no need to sign him right now. Nothing changes between now and then except the health of Kawhi knees. I am hoping he has a long career without injuries. But he has had chronic knee issues.

Spurs IMHO should just wait until next year. This also gives the Spurs some wiggle room to sign someone if they are far enough under the cap being Kawhi's caphold is not going to be as much as a Max deal. With Duncan and Manu's futures in doubt, this would be the best course of action for the Spurs right now.

Green's and Leonards caphold will be low (6 and 9 mil) and the Spurs will have enough to sign a player like Marc Gasol and then resign Green and Leonard to deals. If the Spurs sign Kawhi right now, they will potentially lose 6+ mil in cap space to sign a player to fill Duncan's role. If Duncan or Manu doesn't retire, then it probably doesn't matter. But if both do, then it will.

Just best for the FO to wait out and see how next year's offseason plays out.

[Mel_13]

Exactly. There is no need to sign him right now. Nothing changes between now and then except the health of Kawhi knees. I am hoping he has a long career without injuries. But he has had chronic knee issues.

Spurs IMHO should just wait until next year. This also gives the Spurs some wiggle room to sign someone if they are far enough under the cap being Kawhi's caphold is not going to be as much as a Max deal. With Duncan and Manu's futures in doubt, this would be the best course of action for the Spurs right now.

Green's and Leonards caphold will be low (6 and 9 mil) and the Spurs will have enough to sign a player like Marc Gasol and then resign Green and Leonard to deals. If the Spurs sign Kawhi right now, they will potentially lose 6+ mil in cap space to sign a player to fill Duncan's role. If Duncan or Manu doesn't retire, then it probably doesn't matter. But if both do, then it will.

Just best for the FO to wait out and see how next year's offseason plays out.

Yeah, you've just restated what's been said in every Kawhi contract thread since last spring. We keep covering the same ground. (Not that there's anything wrong with that. Wth else are we gonna talk about anyway?)

1. The greatest advantage of waiting is retaining the extra cap space in 2015.

2. The greatest risk is that Kawhi won't sign a 5 year deal next summer and gets to unrestricted free agency as early as 2017 instead of 2020.

3. Everything else is much less important.

[Chinook]

Nothing changes with respect to the maximum length of the deal by waiting until next summer.

Sounds like CWS was saying that Kawhi should get less than the max APY. The only way that that can happen while also locking Kawhi up for five years is if they wait until the summer.

A thing to worry about is the possibility of the league doing a mini jump next off-season in relation to the cap. It's one thing to give a player a max deal assuming a $66-Million cap. But if the cap gets "smoothed over" and rises significantly, then players who got max extensions this off-season just got an increase in salary that their teams can do nothing to prevent.

I think the Spurs offer $90M/5 next off-season without reservation. But $105M/5 is a different story. That's Prime Duncan territory, and I think the team will try to negotiate for a deal pretty far below that.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Yeah, you've just restated what's been said in every Kawhi contract thread since last spring. We keep covering the same ground. (Not that there's anything wrong with that. Wth else are we gonna talk about anyway?)

1. The greatest advantage of waiting is retaining the extra cap space in 2015.

2. The greatest risk is that Kawhi won't sign a 5 year deal next summer and gets to unrestricted free agency as early as 2017 instead of 2020.

3. Everything else is much less important.

Honestly, I haven't been reading any Kawhi threads til this one of late and I am agreement with the current philosophy the Spurs are taking. I don't see Kawhi walking. I see him taking the deal, especially being that Pop will be around for another 4-5 years.

I think a preliminary deal is already hammered out, which is what they were discussing. Duncan and Manu's decisions to retire or not is a huge factor in this decision.

[Mel_13]

I think the Spurs offer $90M/5 next off-season without reservation. But $105M/5 is a different story. That's Prime Duncan territory, and I think the team will try to negotiate for a deal pretty far below that.

If this goes until next summer, I can't see him taking five years unless he gets the max or very, very close to it. He'll sign a max offer sheet for less than five years before taking a much lower AAV in a longer deal.

[Mel_13]

Honestly, I haven't been reading any Kawhi threads til this one of late and I am agreement with the current philosophy the Spurs are taking. I don't see Kawhi walking. I see him taking the deal, especially being that Pop will be around for another 4-5 years.

I think a preliminary deal is already hammered out, which is what they were discussing. Duncan and Manu's decisions to retire or not is a huge factor in this decision.

Well, he'll be restricted so he can't walk. Whether he'll sign for five years without any early opt outs remains to be seen.

As to Duncan/Manu, it does appear that the Spurs are at least preparing for a scenario where one or both retire next summer.

[Chinook]

If this goes until next summer, I can't see him taking five years unless he gets the max or very, very close to it. He'll sign a max offer sheet for less than five years before taking a much lower AAV in a longer deal.

Obviously depends on what kind of year he has. If he is the team's best player, I don't think he or the Spurs will have to negotiate very hard. If he battles injuries and the Spurs fail to repeat, I'm not sure anyone is going to drop a huge max deal on him before seeing what 2016 holds. Although I'm sure the Spurs would match it anyway.

Again, though, there's quite a bit of wiggle room in my opinion between a max offer sheet and a max contract from the Spurs. Assuming $105M/5 is the Bird contract, then a max offer sheet would be $78M/4. So the Spurs would be paying $27 Million for one extra year, which wouldn't make a lot of sense, since Kawhi's next max isn't likely to start higher than that if he were to get a new deal in 2019. Plus, that's so far in the future that no one really knows what kind of player Kawhi will be at that time. I don't think it's unreasonable or unlikely at all for the Spurs to be able to negotiate $7-10 Million off the total value of the contract.

[Sean Cagney]

No player that the Spurs can sign in free agency will be as good a 2 way player as Kawhi. Some of you dudes are delusional.

Nobody comes and signs in SA anyways who is a big FA and we know that, but you are right.

We risk letting him go and getting nothing in return, no thank you. He can be a future all star in SA, I would pay him.

[Mel_13]

Obviously depends on what kind of year he has. If he is the team's best player, I don't think he or the Spurs will have to negotiate very hard. If he battles injuries and the Spurs fail to repeat, I'm not sure anyone is going to drop a huge max deal on him before seeing what 2016 holds. Although I'm sure the Spurs would match it anyway.

Again, though, there's quite a bit of wiggle room in my opinion between a max offer sheet and a max contract from the Spurs. Assuming $105M/5 is the Bird contract, then a max offer sheet would be $78M/4. So the Spurs would be paying $27 Million for one extra year, which wouldn't make a lot of sense, since Kawhi's next max isn't likely to start higher than that if he were to get a new deal in 2019. Plus, that's so far in the future that no one really knows what kind of player Kawhi will be at that time. I don't think it's unreasonable or unlikely at all for the Spurs to be able to negotiate $7-10 Million off the total value of the contract.

I wouldn't disagree. I took your words ("I think the team will try to negotiate for a deal pretty far below that") to mean something more substantial than 1.4-2.0M in AAV.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

If this goes until next summer, I can't see him taking five years unless he gets the max or very, very close to it. He'll sign a max offer sheet for less than five years before taking a much lower AAV in a longer deal.

I see him getting the Max next summer. But Max or no Max, the Spurs will still get extra cap room by waiting.

Even at the Max, Kawhi would be paid FMV under bump in the Salary Cap to over 90 mil. Just look at Parker.

I would say Kawhi has as much value to the Spurs now as Parker did the past 5 years. Parker was paid 12.5 mil a year. That salary is equivalent of 21.5% of the avg. Salary Cap. Let's say the Cap bump ups to 90+ mil, which is projected for the 2016-2017 season. At 15-18 mil a year, that would put Kawhi's percentage of Salary at 16-18% of the Cap. As you can see, that still would be less than the value of the Parker's contract at 12.5 mil.

Kawhi is probably the best perimeter defender in the league, well, I would say tied with James as this point. His offense has improved each year as well. At a Rookie Max contract, he is worth it considering the Salary Cap bump that is coming in 2016. Kawhi is entering the prime of his career, not the twilight at this point.

[Mel_13]

I see him getting the Max next summer. But Max or no Max, the Spurs will still get extra cap room by waiting.

Yeah, we've reached consensus on that in this thread and many before it.

The extra cap space is the primary reason to wait until next summer. My point remains that waiting does not come without potential costs. Many have presented the option as completely risk-free and cost-free for the Spurs. While the risks and costs may be worth it, they do exist.

[RD2191]

Nobody comes and signs in SA anyways who is a big FA and we know that, but you are right.

We risk letting him go and getting nothing in return, no thank you. He can be a future all star in SA, I would pay him.
That's what I'm saying. Kawhi, Splitter, Parker, Green, and whoever else are still a playoff team out west. Lose Kawhi and the Spurs can start preparing for some really ugly seasons.

[Killakobe81]

I see him getting the Max next summer. But Max or no Max, the Spurs will still get extra cap room by waiting.

Even at the Max, Kawhi would be paid FMV under bump in the Salary Cap to over 90 mil. Just look at Parker.

I would say Kawhi has as much value to the Spurs now as Parker did the past 5 years. Parker was paid 12.5 mil a year. That salary is equivalent of 21.5% of the avg. Salary Cap. Let's say the Cap bump ups to 90+ mil, which is projected for the 2016-2017 season. At 15-18 mil a year, that would put Kawhi's percentage of Salary at 16-18% of the Cap. As you can see, that still would be less than the value of the Parker's contract at 12.5 mil.

Kawhi is probably the best perimeter defender in the league, well, I would say tied with James as this point. His offense has improved each year as well. At a Rookie Max contract, he is worth it considering the Salary Cap bump that is coming in 2016. Kawhi is entering the prime of his career, not the twilight at this point.

KL is a better defender at this point. At least last year. Maybe it's due to his burden on offense last year but LeBron was good not great on defense and I would rather have Kiwis defense. Offense the gap favors James by triple ...but defensively I want Kiwi ....especially on the perimter inside I would take LeBron due to strength but KKL has better length.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Yeah, we've reached consensus on that in this thread and many before it.

The extra cap space is the primary reason to wait until next summer. My point remains that waiting does not come without potential costs. Many have presented the option as completely risk-free and cost-free for the Spurs. While the risks and costs may be worth it, they do exist.

True. But I think its worth it considering both Duncan and Manu may retire this offseason. And it would be beneficial for the Spurs to have the cap space needed to sign someone like Marc Gasol to replace Duncan if that happens.

This could very well turn out like the Morey/Parsons situation this past summer. But unlike Morey, I am sure Pop had this discussion to let Kawhi know how much the Spurs value him and that a deal is in place. But they need to be definite that Duncan or Manu will be returning next season before resigning Kawhi, which is why I am not surprise a deal wasn't signed after their recent meeting. But I do think a deal was agreed upon for this summer.

[Chinook]

I wouldn't disagree. I took your words ("I think the team will try to negotiate for a deal pretty far below that") to mean something more substantial than 1.4-2.0M in AAV.

Well, we were only talking about a difference of $3 Million APY as it was. But that value may make a big difference if the Spurs plan to have cap space in 2017 and/or 2018. A full max deal pretty much has to be structured one way, but a below-max deal can decrease in target seasons like Diaw's and Mills' do. An extra million or two can make the difference between having a max slot open or having to settle for lower-level free agents.

[Mel_13]

True. But I think its worth it considering both Duncan and Manu may retire this offseason. And it would be beneficial for the Spurs to have the cap space needed to sign someone like Marc Gasol to replace Duncan if that happens.

This could very well turn out like the Morey/Parsons situation this past summer. But unlike Morey, I am sure Pop had this discussion to let Kawhi know how much the Spurs value him and that a deal is in place. But they need to be definite that Duncan or Manu will be returning next season before resigning Kawhi, which is why I am not surprise a deal wasn't signed after their recent meeting. But I do think a deal was agreed upon for this summer.

The Duncan/Manu situations obviously have an effect on the Spurs negotiating position. I'm not as confident as you are that the two sides have the parameters of a deal in place for next summer. In any event, Kawhi will eventually sign a multiyear deal for the max or something very close to it. If no extension is signed by Friday, we'll have to wait until July to know the details.

[Sean Cagney]

That's what I'm saying. Kawhi, Splitter, Parker, Green, and whoever else are still a playoff team out west. Lose Kawhi and the Spurs can start preparing for some really ugly seasons.

This is very true, sign him up. You won't get a guy near that in FA to SA and he loves it here so sign him up and call it a day. If they try to lowball him and he holds out or walks that will be very for the team, understatement.

[Mel_13]

Well, we were only talking about a difference of $3 Million APY as it was. But that value may make a big difference if the Spurs plan to have cap space in 2017 and/or 2018. A full max deal pretty much has to be structured one way, but a below-max deal can decrease in target seasons like Diaw's and Mills' do. An extra million or two can make the difference between having a max slot open or having to settle for lower-level free agents.

No problem. Tbh, I didn't even do the math and just responded to the perceived sentiment.

As someone who has been in these discussions since we were talking about the "2008 plan" in 2006 and 2007, I find the whole notion of future cap space, and what can be done with that space, as a bit of a mirage. I'll stick to my opinion that waiting for next summer will result in Kawhi reaching unrestricted free agency before 2020, perhaps as early as 2017. That's why I'll remain in the minority that hopes for a deal on an extension. Once we get past Friday, I'll get on board with the future discussions.

[Chinook]

No problem. Tbh, I didn't even do the math and just responded to the perceived sentiment.

As someone who has been in these discussions since we were talking about the "2008 plan" in 2006 and 2007, I find the whole notion of future cap space, and what can be done with that space, as a bit of a mirage. I'll stick to my opinion that waiting for next summer will result in Kawhi reaching unrestricted free agency before 2020, perhaps as early as 2017. That's why I'll remain in the minority that hopes for a deal on an extension. Once we get past Friday, I'll get on board with the future discussions.

That's fair. I will say that the team sure seems to make plans for future cap space, with '08,'10, '12 plans being ones that they had to scrap. Next summer looks like it will finally be the time the Spurs will have cap space, and they set up their contracts accordingly, but they also seem to have done the same thing for 2017, which is why I think it's the next year of their plan. While I don't know that the team will have cap space when that summer actually comes, I would think they'd be negotiating with Leonard with the idea any money he gives back would go toward that season's cap.

You're right that we'll have a better idea in a few days. I think we'd know by now if the league had made clear whether they intend to artificially pump up next year's cap or not.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Seems like a lot of people do not understand the effect a price ceiling has on price as opposed to valuation. Much like Chinook and categorization and negative proofs. Extending assertions without understanding the paradigm is arbitrary.

[Chinook]

Seems like a lot of people do not understand the effect a price ceiling has on price as opposed to valuation. Much like Chinook and categorization and negative proofs. Extending assertions without understanding the paradigm is arbitrary.

I get that you're trying to get me back into the Club thread. I'll be there some time this evening. Don't worry. Doesn't make sense to try to derail this thread, though.

Anyway, I don't think many of us are failing to see anything that you're talking about. There are threads downstairs talking about how max deals affect the value of players. This thread has almost nothing to do with actual dollars, but timing and the cost of waiting.

[DPG21920]

:lmao Fuzzy is the WORST poster on ST and that's saying something.

[Mel_13]

That's fair. I will say that the team sure seems to make plans for future cap space, with '08,'10, '12 plans being ones that they had to scrap. Next summer looks like it will finally be the time the Spurs will have cap space, and they set up their contracts accordingly, but they also seem to have done the same thing for 2017, which is why I think it's the next year of their plan. While I don't know that the team will have cap space when that summer actually comes, I would think they'd be negotiating with Leonard with the idea any money he gives back would go toward that season's cap.

You're right that we'll have a better idea in a few days. I think we'd know by now if the league had made clear whether they intend to artificially pump up next year's cap or not.

To me those were always contingency plans. If the wheels fell off, they weren't going to bad AND in salary cap hell for more than one summer. Now Tim and Manu can't play forever and they're going to have to employ those contingency plans in the near future. If they can remain near the top of the league after losing those two, it will really be remarkable and without any precedent in the last 40 years.

[mathbzh]

That's what I'm saying. Kawhi, Splitter, Parker, Green, and whoever else are still a playoff team out west. Lose Kawhi and the Spurs can start preparing for some really ugly seasons.
Honestly, it is not like KL is Duncan. He can be replaced (not saying it is easy).
And Even with him, are you sure it is a playoffs team? Parker will get older, Kawhi has yet to prove he can be a team leader... And last year the Suns won 48 games not 38 like the Hawks.
By the way, I am not sure becoming the Hawks of the west is a great plan.

Well, I realize I don't mind what happen once Duncan is gone.

[#2!]

So ... rather than taking a discount the Spurs way, and play with good players, he would rather take the max and play for a shit team like Joe Johnson did with the Hawks before. I hope this is not true as the Spurs were the ones who made him into what he is today. The next Kevin Love ?

No his own hard work made him what he is today. Article after article talks about the amazing work he puts in outside of practice, and during the offseason. The spurs clearly helped him, but they can say "do this, do that" all they want, but it won't matter if the player doesn't put in the work.

[Solid D]

Last I heard, Kawhi prefers driving his old Chevy Malibu to his Porsche. Elfus is trying to do his job and Kawhi is his biggest client. I see this more from the agent's perspective than Kawhi driving the "Max" word. I don't see Kawhi leaving the Spurs.

[look_at_g_shred]

Honestly, it is not like KL is Duncan. He can be replaced (not saying it is easy).
And Even with him, are you sure it is a playoffs team? Parker will get older, Kawhi has yet to prove he can be a team leader... And last year the Suns won 48 games not 38 like the Hawks.
By the way, I am not sure becoming the Hawks of the west is a great plan.

Well, I realize I don't mind what happen once Duncan is gone.
It all depends on who else is on the team after Duncan and Manu.

[Nathan89]

Kawhi will be the bridge for the transfer of many of the qualities that make this organization great. High skilled and high character guys are not very common in the league. On top of that he's been molded for four years(after this year) by our vets. The Spurs won't and shouldn't let him go.

[SupremeGuy]

Last I heard, Kawhi prefers driving his old Chevy Malibu to his Porsche. Elfus is trying to do his job and Kawhi is his biggest client. I see this more from the agent's perspective than Kawhi driving the "Max" word. I don't see Kawhi leaving the Spurs.This, tbh.

A lot of this max talk is probably coming from his agent...

[wildchild]

Green's and Leonards caphold will be low (6 and 9 mil) and the Spurs will have enough to sign a player like Marc Gasol and then resign Green and Leonard to deals.

If they sign Gasol they can't sign Green, even if they don't extend Leonard this week.

Spurs cap space may be 24/27 next summer, the max contract for players that have been in the league for more than six years is 30% of the cap, 19.95M, and Danny won't sign a 4M deal again.

[wildchild]

So the Spurs would be paying $27 Million for one extra year, which wouldn't make a lot of sense, since Kawhi's next max isn't likely to start higher than that if he were to get a new deal in 2019.
Agree but is not for one extra year, signing the bird contract could mean two more years even three, if the max offer sheet is 4Y last year player option like Love, or a short 3 years offer like Parsons.

[Chinook]

Agree but is not for one extra year, signing the bird contract could mean two more years even three, if the max offer sheet is 4Y last year player option like Love, or a short 3 years offer like Parsons.

To a certain extent, yeah. But depending on how short Leonard's deal is, he'd still be under the lower-max level in future years. It's not likely he'd be able to get a $48M/2 deal In free agency to make up for what he's losing from the Bird deal.

In a world where the cap does a mini jump next summer, a Bird deal should give Kawhi the highest payout he can get over the first four years. It's possible that a four-year Bird deal plus a new Bird would net him more over five years, though.

[wildchild]

I'll stick to my opinion that waiting for next summer will result in Kawhi reaching unrestricted free agency before 2020, perhaps as early as 2017. That's why I'll remain in the minority that hopes for a deal on an extension. Once we get past Friday, I'll get on board with the future discussions.
I have the same view, no-signing the extension will accelerate Leonard's camp decision to enter free agency in 2017 or like you said before 2020

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

If they sign Gasol they can't sign Green, even if they don't extend Leonard this week.

Spurs cap space may be 24/27 next summer, the max contract for players that have been in the league for more than six years is 30% of the cap, 19.95M, and Danny won't sign a 4M deal again.

Dude, the Spurs have only 33 mil in salaries committed to next season. The Salary Cap is projected to go up to 68mil next year and the Tax level will be 81mil. Green and Kawhi capholds come to about 15mil for the Spurs. That will put the Spurs right at 48mil, which gives them the 20 mil cap space they need to sign Gasol, but imo, I think they can sign him for a little less than that. Remember, they can resign Green over the cap being they have his Bird rights, same with Kawhi.

But this all hinges on if both Manu and Duncan retire. If one doesn't, it won't matter. But I think both will stay for at least another year. But just in case, its best for the Spurs to have that extra 6mil in cap space to sign Duncan's replacement.

[ManuTastic]

With the new TV deal, Kawhi max 2014 contract won't be a really max next years.
The cap in 2017 will allow the Spurs rebuild and sign two great FA even if they sign the Leonard contract extension this year.

Yep. The cap is going to get much bigger, so today's max contract will be tomorrow's reasonable deal. I say give him the max contract now, and then when the Big Three are gone we can decide whether to build around KL or deal him for picks and start over. His contract will be more tradeable later, because it will be sub-max under the next CBA.

The reality is, under the new CBA even contracts for superstars are shorter, so the days of assembling a good nucleus and keeping them together for many years, a la the Spurs' Big Three, are pretty much over. It's rare to find players who see the value of taking less coin to ensure long term stability and flexibility.

[exstatic]

I have the same view, no-signing the extension will accelerate Leonard's camp decision to enter free agency in 2017 or like you said before 2020

I disagree with that COMPLETELY. I don't even think the Spurs want him to sign ANY extension, because that shuts the door on FA acquisitions next summer. I actually don't think they MIND paying him the MAX, even for 5 years, but they don't want to do it NOW. Timing is everything.

[ambchang]

What are some of the options the Spurs have, and what are the risks and benefits of each?

I am trying to look at all the scenarios:

Scenario 1:
The Spurs sign Kawhi to an extension (max or not).
Benefits - No risk of him leaving for nothing, lock him up to another 4 or 5 years, should be a decent deal given that the cap is expected to go up
Risk - Kawhi under performs, ends up massively overpaying him.

Scenario 2:
Wait till this summer, match an offer sheet from another team
Benefits - No need to outbid themselves now, can keep Kawhi anyways, can leave some cap space to sign a number of other free agents (who are the targets), maintain cap flexibility, another year to observe Leonard's growth, unlikely since Spurs are likely to match any offers anyways.
Risk - The terms of the contract will then be dictated by another team instead of by the Spurs. A one year qualifying offer will be the worst case scenario as Leonard will then be a UFA, with the new CBA coming in when his one year qualifying offer expires

Scenario 3:
Not sign Kawhi, no offers from other teams
Benefits - Most of Scenario 2's benefits, Spurs can then dictate the terms, get him for a one year qualifying offer for cheap, then give him a long term deal under the new CBA.
Question - Can the Spurs sign Kawhi to an extension next summer instead?
Risk - Same as Scenario 2

Am I missing/misinterpreting anything here?

[Chinook]

What are some of the options the Spurs have, and what are the risks and benefits of each?

I am trying to look at all the scenarios:

Scenario 1:
The Spurs sign Kawhi to an extension (max or not).
Benefits - No risk of him leaving for nothing, lock him up to another 4 or 5 years, should be a decent deal given that the cap is expected to go up
Risk - Kawhi under performs, ends up massively overpaying him.

Scenario 2:
Wait till this summer, match an offer sheet from another team
Benefits - No need to outbid themselves now, can keep Kawhi anyways, can leave some cap space to sign a number of other free agents (who are the targets), maintain cap flexibility, another year to observe Leonard's growth, unlikely since Spurs are likely to match any offers anyways.
Risk - The terms of the contract will then be dictated by another team instead of by the Spurs. A one year qualifying offer will be the worst case scenario as Leonard will then be a UFA, with the new CBA coming in when his one year qualifying offer expires

Scenario 3:
Not sign Kawhi, no offers from other teams
Benefits - Most of Scenario 2's benefits, Spurs can then dictate the terms, get him for a one year qualifying offer for cheap, then give him a long term deal under the new CBA.
Question - Can the Spurs sign Kawhi to an extension next summer instead?
Risk - Same as Scenario 2

Am I missing/misinterpreting anything here?

Scenario 1 also has the risk of there being a mini-jump which causes a max extension to increase dramatically in value from what we think it will be right now.

Scenarios 2 and 3 has the risk of Kawhi signing his QO, which makes him untradeable and unextendable. That would be a horrible place to be in for the Spurs.

Also, there's a Scenario 4, which is likeliest in my opinion. The Spurs don't extend Kawhi and then give him a new deal in 2015. That has all the benefits and detriments we've been discussing for months.

[TheGreatYacht]

Chris_Broussard: Source: Jimmy Butler & Bulls unlikely to agree to contract extension before Fri deadline. Same w/Kawhi Leonard & SA

[Chinook]

Well, I guess we know Kawhi's getting extended, then.

[Baam]

Well, I guess we know Kawhi's getting extended, then.

:lol

[Richie]

Dude, the Spurs have only 33 mil in salaries committed to next season. The Salary Cap is projected to go up to 68mil next year and the Tax level will be 81mil. Green and Kawhi capholds come to about 15mil for the Spurs. That will put the Spurs right at 48mil, which gives them the 20 mil cap space they need to sign Gasol, but imo, I think they can sign him for a little less than that. Remember, they can resign Green over the cap being they have his Bird rights, same with Kawhi.

But this all hinges on if both Manu and Duncan retire. If one doesn't, it won't matter. But I think both will stay for at least another year. But just in case, its best for the Spurs to have that extra 6mil in cap space to sign Duncan's replacement.

I agree with everything you've said, I think Greens cap hold ($7.6m) is about what he'll get so it doesn't make a huge difference, but on the chance he wants more than that then the cap hold is a useful tool. The Kawhi cap hold is big for us though.

I think the Room exception ($2.5m) is about fair for a 38 year old Ginobili, which means even if he comes back we'll have the cap space for a max free agent. The spanner in the works is Timmy, if both he and Manu want to return I suspect it's unrealistic to ask Timmy to take the Room exception and Manu to take the minimum, but if it means we get Marc Gasol I could imagine them taking it for their final season.

Edit: I imagine if we had a real shot at Marc and Timmy and Manu weren't willing to take such big cuts, we'd let Danny walk. We could see Timmy take $6m, Manu take the $2.5m room exception and we'd have a max available.

Another issue is the roster spot cap holds, which in that scenario would total $2.5m. Signing Gasol would be incredible but as others have said, he's likely staying in Memphis.

[FkLA]

Haven't read through the thread, but do the Spurs really think there isn't atleast one team out there that will offer Kawhi the max? Didn't guys like Hayward, Parsons and Bledsoe just receive the max this off-season? I understand trying to get a hometown discount but if his camp isn't budging just give him what he wants tbh.

[spurraider21]

Haven't read through the thread, but do the Spurs really think there isn't atleast one team out there that will offer Kawhi the max? Didn't guys like Hayward, Parsons and Bledsoe just receive the max this off-season? I understand trying to get a hometown discount but if his camp isn't budging just give him what he wants tbh.


1. The greatest advantage of waiting is retaining the extra cap space in 2015.

2. The greatest risk is that Kawhi won't sign a 5 year deal next summer and gets to unrestricted free agency as early as 2017 instead of 2020.

3. Everything else is much less important.

[ploto]

He already has his championship ring and his NBA Finals MVP. This is his chance to get paid. Why shouldn't he?

[Man In Black]

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-rookie-extensions-kawhi-leonard/

That nails all the Kawhi options for the most part.

[wildchild]

I think they can sign him for a little less than that.
The Spurs need to lure him to leave Memphis, offering less of the max is not the best way.


I think Greens cap hold ($7.6m) is about what he'll get so it doesn't make a huge difference, but on the chance he wants more than that then the cap hold is a useful tool
I guess next Green's deal won't be less than 9M year season, it's likely his last chance to sign a big contract and he'll negotiate aggressively to get that money.

[wildchild]

I disagree with that COMPLETELY. I don't even think the Spurs want him to sign ANY extension, because that shuts the door on FA acquisitions next summer. I actually don't think they MIND paying him the MAX, even for 5 years, but they don't want to do it NOW. Timing is everything.
As the guys said here, the bird contract could be some like 105M/5Y next summer, the Spurs'll want a discount and the situation will be the same, he wants the max, the Spurs want a pay cut...they won't reach agreement, won't sign the bird contract.
That's why I think the Spurs'll match the max offer (some 3years-fourth year player option offer) and he'll enter free agency in 2017

[wildchild]

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-rookie-extensions-kawhi-leonard/

That nails all the Kawhi options for the most part.

Perhaps the solution will be a wink-wink agreement on the structure of a deal once he becomes a free agent in 2015.

At least with Leonard the things seem clear enough.
There is not a wink-wink agreement on wainting, the Spurs don't have an understanding with his agent to let Kawhi enter free agency next summer to re-sign him. Instead, his camp want the max extension, not an agreement on future-contract promise.
It's good to know so fans can't argue "but, but why he's acting like prima donna and leaves the Spurs if they had an understanding..."

[Solid D]

If something breaks in the undercurrents, I'm sure TSpence will bring us the knowledge.

[BillMc]

ESPN says deal very unlikely to happen: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11794616/kawhi-leonard-san-antonio-spurs-not-receive-extension-deadline

Leonard deal by Friday unlikely
There is a strong likelihood that Friday's midnight deadline for contract extensions for first-round picks from the Class of 2011 will pass without a new deal for reigning NBA Finals MVPKawhi Leonard (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6450/kawhi-leonard), according to league sources.
Sources told ESPN.com this week that Leonard and the San Antonio Spurs (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/sa/san-antonio-spurs), despite more serious discussions between the parties in advance of the Halloween buzzer, are unlikely to come to terms during this extension window, setting up the 23-year-old to become a restricted free agent in July.
‎Negotiations, however, do remain alive going into the final day for at least three other prominent 2011 first-rounders: Golden State (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/gs/golden-state-warriors)'s Klay Thompson (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6475/klay-thompson), Minnesota (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/min/minnesota-timberwolves)'s Ricky Rubio (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4011/ricky-rubio) andCleveland (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/cle/cleveland-cavaliers)'s Tristan Thompson (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6474/tristan-thompson).
Leonard has been billed as the Spurs' future face of the franchise for some time -- long before he emerged as the star of San Antonio's five-game destruction of the LeBron James (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james)-ledMiami Heat (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/mia/miami-heat) in the 2014 NBA Finals -- and had his agent, Brian Elfus, in San Antonio this week to negotiate with Spurs officials.
But sources say that San Antonio prefers to wait until the offseason to address Leonard's future in the name of maintaining maximum financial flexibility.
That strategy does come with an element of risk, since Leonard is sure to attract max offer sheets of varying contract lengths on July 1, his first day as a restricted free agent. But the Spurs would have the right to match any offer Leonard gets next summer in that scenario and would be able to do so with a better feel about how much longer stalwarts Tim Duncan (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/215/tim-duncan) and Manu Ginobili (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/272/manu-ginobili) want to keep playing. If the Spurs were to extend Leonard's contract now, and then either Duncan or Ginobili -- or both -- decides to retire, San Antonio's cap space to replace them would be lessened significantly.
A contract before Friday's deadline is thus considered far more likely for Klay Thompson, Rubio and perhaps even ‎Tristan Thompson.
Sources say that the Wolves and Rubio have been in advanced negotiations for the last few weeks that are likely to lead to an extension. Thompson and Golden State, meanwhile, have been in serious talks for some time after the Warriors backed out of long-running Love trade talks with Mi‎nnesota this offseason in order to keep Thompson.
Six members of the Class of 2011 already have received extensions: Cleveland's Kyrie Irving (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6442/kyrie-irving), Denver (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/den/denver-nuggets)'s Kenneth Faried (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6433/kenneth-faried), Orlando (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/orl/orlando-magic)'s Nikola Vucevic (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6478/nikola-vucevic), Charlotte (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/cha/charlotte-hornets)'s Kemba Walker (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6479/kemba-walker) andPhoenix Suns (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/phx/phoenix-suns) twins Markieff (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6461/markieff-morris)and Marcus Morris (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6462/marcus-morris).
Other well-regarded members of that draft class who appeared unlikely to land deals as of Thursday night, thus heading for restricted ‎free agency, include Oklahoma City (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/okc/oklahoma-city-thunder)'s Reggie Jackson (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6443/reggie-jackson), Chicago (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/chi/chicago-bulls)'s Jimmy Butler (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6430/jimmy-butler), Milwaukee (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/mil/milwaukee-bucks)'s Brandon Knight (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6448/brandon-knight), New York (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/ny/new-york-knicks)'s Iman Shumpert (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6468/iman-shumpert) and Miami's Norris Cole (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6431/norris-cole).
‎According to multiple media reports, Utah (http://espn.go.com/nba/team/_/name/utah/utah-jazz) and big man Enes Kanter (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6447/enes-kanter) decided ‎Wednesday to back away from the negotiating table to allow Kanter to be a restricted free agent in July. Jazz guard Alec Burks (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6429/alec-burks) remains eligible for an extension before the deadline.

[BatManu20]

Looks like we're going to match the Max offer the Lakers are going to give him next summer.

[wildchild]

At least I'm not alone...Sam Amick asks if the Spurs are making a mistake with Leonard.


The structure and length of the contract are key components, especially in an environment like that of the Spurs' where they place such a premium on stability as they forge closer to this unknown future. And while the Spurs have done such masterful work over these last few decades convincing players to sacrifice on the financial front for the greater good, the harsh reality is that they simply can't assume that trend is going to continue.

But how long is Leonard willing to play fourth fiddle in this franchise, and what happens if this deal doesn't get done and he spends the season wondering how he'd look in a different uniform? It wouldn't be the first time resentment was born out of these sorts of situations, and rest assured that the relationship – on both sides of this equation – must remain rock-solid if this is going to work for the long haul.

But why not let Leonard know that he's the one to lead them into the post-Duncan days, especially when his incentive for cutting a short-term deal is so evident?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/spurs/2014/10/30/kawhi-leonard-spurs-gregg-popovich-rc-buford-klay-thompson/18176469/

[objective]

I'd rather the spurs max him out now. Sure, there's a premium that wouldn't be owed if there was an RFA offer to match.

But he's earned it in my eyes with the fmvp. And if the team didn't want to max him, then pop shouldn't have been calling him the face of the future franchise guy the last two years. Because those guys get paid.

[Chinook]

At least I'm not alone...Sam Amick asks if the Spurs are making a mistake with Leonard.

That's just a bad take by Amick. Not much else to say about that. No one's said the Spurs are trying to pay Leonard less, just that they aren't giving a max extension to him. Kawhi's max deal will be the fifth they've given out in the past 15 years. They don't always get players to take less money, and they don't seem to mind giving it out.

Amick doesn't seem to understand why the Spurs would be unwilling to give the extension, which speaks to his ignorance on this topic.

[Chinook]

And if the team didn't want to max him, then pop shouldn't have been calling him the face of the future franchise guy the last two years. Because those guys get paid.

Yes, I've always hated Pop doing that. Nothing good was going to come from anointing a player to the media. That is unless Kawhi needed to hear that praise to raise his game. Anyway, Pop's words are exactly why people shouldn't assume this Leonard impasse is about money. No one has any figures that the Spurs want Kawhi to take, and I believe that's because the Spurs haven't offered any. The Spurs will pay Kawhi, just not until after they use their cap space next summer.

[BillMc]

Yes, I've always hated Pop doing that. Nothing good was going to come from anointing a player to the media. That is unless Kawhi needed to hear that praise to raise his game. Anyway, Pop's words are exactly why people shouldn't assume this Leonard impasse is about money. No one has any figures that the Spurs want Kawhi to take, and I believe that's because the Spurs haven't offered any. The Spurs will pay Kawhi, just not until after they use their cap space next summer.

This

[dabom]

Don't max him pop. He is totally worth it though. Do it next year or something.

[wildchild]

That's just a bad take by Amick. Not much else to say about that. No one's said the Spurs are trying to pay Leonard less, just that they aren't giving a max extension to him. Kawhi's max deal will be the fifth they've given out in the past 15 years. They don't always get players to take less money, and they don't seem to mind giving it out.

Amick doesn't seem to understand why the Spurs would be unwilling to give the extension, which speaks to his ignorance on this topic.

Well, I think he understands about Spurs cap space and more, but he makes an approach based on the player view and how it could affect the relationship between the team and the player.

I read a lot about cap space but nobody talks about the impact on a young player who is denied the deal he wants -he thinks he earned that deal-, and Amick wrote about it.

[Chinook]

Well, I think he understands about Spurs cap space and more, but he makes an approach based on the player view and how it could affect the relationship between the team and the player.

No, I don't think Amick understands that. He seems to be assuming that the Spurs want Leonard to take less, hence all the talk about Kawhi feeling like a fourth banana and whatnot. The reality is that no one's reported that the Spurs have even made Leonard an offer, much less one below the max.


I read a lot about cap space but nobody talks about the impact on a young player who is denied the deal he wants -he thinks he earned that deal-, and Amick wrote about it

Leonard isn't being denied anything. That's why this issue is so absurd. Kawhi will get his money. But he's not so big that the Spurs should ruin their chance to compete to appease his/his agent's desire to get the guarantee now. Amick said nothing about the financial implications of the Spurs giving Kawhi his deal; he just argued on the basis of hometown discounts. He's not speaking to some underplayed issue; he's misreading the situation and sounding uneducated on the subject.

[dabom]

When you sign with the Spurs, you get additional benefits than most other teams.

-50 win team
-Deep playoff run
-Lots of rest
-Minimum distractions
-Best coach and FO of the NBA
-We take care of our own

I would take 14mil for 4 years if I was Kawhi. Lots of benefits when you play here.

[SnakeBoy]

At least I'm not alone...Sam Amick asks if the Spurs are making a mistake with Leonard.




http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/spurs/2014/10/30/kawhi-leonard-spurs-gregg-popovich-rc-buford-klay-thompson/18176469/

They're not. KL isn't going anywhere.

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/10/27/7080477/spurs-kawhi-leonard-extension-free-agency

[wildchild]

No one's said the Spurs are trying to pay Leonard less, just that they aren't giving a max extension to him.

You're sure if Leonard would have taken a big pay cut, they wouldn't have extended him?


Yes, I've always hated Pop doing that. Nothing good was going to come from anointing a player to the media.

I think nobody needs Pop's words after last finals, even if he wouldn't have said nothing, people still know after the playoffs that Leonard would be the Spurs future and the face of franchise.

[wildchild]

Leonard isn't being denied anything.
He wants a deal, he doesn't get that deal, that's the player view.

[Chinook]

You're sure if Leonard would have taken a big pay cut, they wouldn't have extended him?

Who knows? That's the point. No one's said the Spurs are asking Kawhi to take a pay cut -- they're just assuming that's what's going on. It's a faulty assumption in my opinion, seeing as there's a much better explanation.


I think nobody needs Pop's words after last finals, even if he wouldn't have said nothing, people still know after the playoffs that Leonard would be the Spurs future and the face of franchise.

Pop's been saying that long before the Finals. Again, though, I'm not convinced Leonard is good enough to be the guy on a title team. The 2014 Spurs are anomalous in that they had three HoFers and a HoF coach as non-MVPs. Leonard's not likely to have that kind of cast again, especially not if he gets extended.

[Chinook]

He wants a deal, he doesn't get that deal, that's the player view.

He wants the deal now. He gets it later. That's the likely reality.

[ElNono]

He wants the deal now. He gets it later. That's the likely reality.

He's taking a risk for not getting the big payday now. Hopefully that doesn't sour him looking forward.

[SnakeBoy]

He wants a deal, he doesn't get that deal, that's the player view.

If he's upset Pop pats him on the ass and says don't worry you'll be taken care of, Leonard says ok...end of story. It's not like the Spurs are dealing with some child like Dwight Howard.

[Chinook]

He's taking a risk for not getting the big payday now. Hopefully that doesn't sour him looking forward.

It's a strange situation. The Spurs can promise him that they'll give him the deal he wants next summer, but they can't put that in writing, lest they be subjected to Wolves-like sanctions. So it comes down to how much Kawhi trusts the FO's verbal agreement.

[wildchild]

When you sign with the Spurs, you get additional benefits than most other teams.

-50 win team
-Deep playoff run
-Lots of rest
-Minimum distractions
-Best coach and FO of the NBA
-We take care of our own

I would take 14mil for 4 years if I was Kawhi. Lots of benefits when you play here.
Fortunately you're not Kawhi Leonard, I think he plays better than you. :D

I don't know nothing about you, instead we know a lot of the kid's life. He isn't precisely a rich boy, he's from Moval, he lost his dad and should secure the future of his mom and his four sisters, so I don't blame him if he wants a big deal, or if he leaves SA because other team pay him better.

[ElNono]

It's a strange situation. The Spurs can promise him that they'll give him the deal he wants next summer, but they can't put that in writing, lest they be subjected to Wolves-like sanctions. So it comes down to how much Kawhi trusts the FO's verbal agreement.

Unless he has a serious injury/career ender... this is the point his agent is likely pounding on: push to make bank now.

[SnakeBoy]

or if he leaves SA because other team pay him better.

Spurs will be able to offer him more than any other team...he's not leaving.

[dabom]

It's a strange situation. The Spurs can promise him that they'll give him the deal he wants next summer, but they can't put that in writing, lest they be subjected to Wolves-like sanctions. So it comes down to how much Kawhi trusts the FO's verbal agreement.

The Spurs are not one to go back on their words. Very loyal organization. I can only think of one person not getting theirs, and even then, he wouldn't follow orders and was toxic. If the Spurs say they'll do it, they'll do it.
They hurt themselves more by not following their verbal agreement in future player negotiations.

[dabom]

Fortunately you're not Kawhi Leonard, I think he plays better than you. :D

I don't know nothing about you, instead we know a lot of the kid's life. He isn't precisely a rich boy, he's from Moval, he lost his dad and should secure the future of his mom and his four sisters, so I don't blame him if he wants a big deal, or if he leaves SA because other team pay him better.

You might have missed where he still drives his beater instead of his ferrari or something. Kid is frugal as them come. Winning is a top priority followed by money only in a few players.
His agent is just doing his job.

[wildchild]

Spurs will be able to offer him more than any other team...he's not leaving.
Well, maybe we haven't learned much from Morey/Parsons...

[SnakeBoy]

Well, maybe we haven't learned much from Morey/Parsons...

Kawhi is not leaving but carry on if you want.

[wildchild]

Kid is frugal as them come.
Nobody says the opposite...I didn't say he wants the money to buy a Ferrari I said he wants the money to secure his family future.

[dabom]

Nobody says the opposite...I didn't say he wants the money to buy a Ferrari I said he wants the money to secure his family future.

I bet he has a family to feed. :lmao

[Chinook]

Unless he has a serious injury/career ender... this is the point his agent is likely pounding on: push to make bank now.

Indeed. Even a George-like injury that doesn't project to have long-term consequences. But it's hard to make that point to the Spurs. They'd be like, "If you get hurt, you wouldn't be able to earn that contract anyway". It's not fair to expect SA to feel bad about not paying Kawhi to retire.

[Chinook]

The Spurs are not one to go back on their words. Very loyal organization. I can only think of one person not getting theirs, and even then, he wouldn't follow orders and was toxic. If the Spurs say they'll do it, they'll do it.
They hurt themselves more by not following their verbal agreement in future player negotiations.

Yes, and that's why it shouldn't be an issue. But if Leonard breaks his back or something, I do think the Spurs would not give him a contract. It just wouldn't make financial sense. I think they'd take care of his medical bills and set him up with a cushy job in the organization so that he never has to worry about money. But they don't give him $90 Million if he doesn't look like he can earn it.

[ElNono]

Indeed. Even a George-like injury that doesn't project to have long-term consequences. But it's hard to make that point to the Spurs. They'd be like, "If you get hurt, you wouldn't be able to earn that contract anyway". It's not fair to expect SA to feel bad about not paying Kawhi to retire.

But there's no financial loss to the Spurs, as far as such a contract is concerned. Insurance pays it up. Kawhi's agent knows that.

[wildchild]

If he's upset Pop pats him on the ass and says don't worry you'll be taken care of, Leonard says ok...end of story. It's not like the Spurs are dealing with some child like Dwight Howard.

We'll see. If they don't extend him but he gets the minutes and more prominent offensive role that he wants, I wouldn't worry about his future in SA, but he still plays less than 35 minutes and still be 3rd/4th option, his frustration could be an important factor to be taken into account next summer.

[Chinook]

But there's no financial loss to the Spurs, as far as such a contract is concerned. Insurance pays it up. Kawhi's agent knows that.

Insurance pays part of it. There's a 41-game deductible, during which a team is not reimbursed for the salary. And the money stays on the cap regardless, and it hits a little harder, since the Spurs would have to replace Kawhi. After the first year, it's possible the Spurs would get off without paying a cent, but I'm not sure how insurance works for multi-year injuries. Plus, Kawhi would have to never attempt a comeback, lest he wreck the Spurs' cap space.

[Chinook]

CBA FAQ says it's a 41-game deductible, then 80 percent of the salary for the rest of the time the player is injured. So the Spurs would have something to answer to financially regardless.

[spurraider21]

Unless he has a serious injury/career ender... this is the point his agent is likely pounding on: push to make bank now.
yeah, and the spurs answer to that should be he'd have to take less than the max for them to put pen to paper now. there has to be some give and take. you get your max if you wait. can't have your cake and eat it too

[dabom]

:lol at anyone thinking Kawhi is going to have a life-threatening injury where he can't play basketball anymore.
The most I can see is a serious injury where he comes back the next year. He would still command multiple 8figure/year deals.
He is still getting paid if the spurs don't extend him this year even accounting for a serious injury next year.

[ElNono]

Insurance pays part of it. There's a 41-game deductible, during which a team is not reimbursed for the salary. And the money stays on the cap regardless, and it hits a little harder, since the Spurs would have to replace Kawhi. After the first year, it's possible the Spurs would get off without paying a cent, but I'm not sure how insurance works for multi-year injuries. Plus, Kawhi would have to never attempt a comeback, lest he wreck the Spurs' cap space.

The player gets paid. That's why it's called a guaranteed contract. The team might negotiate a buyout at a discount though. The team would also receive a DPE (which equates to 50% of the player contract or the MLE, whichever is less).

All that said, I'm with you the Spurs have no incentive because of the cap considerations. I was just pointing out that Kawhi is risking something here too, especially since this would be his very first big paycheck.

[ElNono]

yeah, and the spurs answer to that should be he'd have to take less than the max for them to put pen to paper now. there has to be some give and take. you get your max if you wait. can't have your cake and eat it too

I don't disagree with this. Don't think his agent is telling him that though.

[spurraider21]

I don't disagree with this. Don't think his agent is telling him that though.
i'm not expecting kiwi and his agent to go through with that, hence the standstill. but its not like kawhi is the only one who is taking risk

[ElNono]

CBA FAQ says it's a 41-game deductible, then 80 percent of the salary for the rest of the time the player is injured. So the Spurs would have something to answer to financially regardless.

Just to clarify, the team gets back 80% of the base salary.

[ElNono]

:lol at anyone thinking Kawhi is going to have a life-threatening injury where he can't play basketball anymore.
The most I can see is a serious injury where he comes back the next year. He would still command multiple 8figure/year deals.
He is still getting paid if the spurs don't extend him this year even accounting for a serious injury next year.

It's unlikely, but there's always a TJ Ford...

[Chinook]

The player gets paid. That's why it's called a guaranteed contract. The team might negotiate a buyout at a discount though. The team would also receive a DPE (which equates to 50% of the player contract or the MLE, whichever is less).

All that said, I'm with you the Spurs have no incentive because of the cap considerations. I was just pointing out that Kawhi is risking something here too, especially since this would be his very first big paycheck.

I know the player gets paid. I was saying that insurance would pay for most of it, but some would still come from the Spurs. But so long as Kawhi doesn't retire, the Spurs would have his salary on their cap, so it would hamper them even if they weren't losing a ton of money.

I don't think your point is misplaced. I was saying that I can understand Leonard's uncertainty, if he feels it. I think things will work out, though. I'm much more concerned about the team using that cap space on someone good. Also, a motivated Leonard is almost certainly a good thing. If he wants to get paid, the dumbest thing he can do is check out mentally. We should see him have a good to great season. Same with Green, hopefully.

[Chinook]

Just to clarify, the team gets back 80% of the base salary.

But for the remainder of the contract, not from the 41 games in the waiting period.

[dabom]

It's unlikely, but there's always a TJ Ford...

:lol

[ElNono]

I know the player gets paid. I was saying that insurance would pay for most of it, but some would still come from the Spurs. But so long as Kawhi doesn't retire, the Spurs would have his salary on their cap, so it would hamper them even if they weren't losing a ton of money.

I don't think your point is misplaced. I was saying that I can understand Leonard's uncertainty, if he feels it. I think things will work out, though. I'm much more concerned about the team using that cap space on someone good. Also, a motivated Leonard is almost certainly a good thing. If he wants to get paid, the dumbest thing he can do is check out mentally. We should see him have a good to great season. Same with Green, hopefully.

Per the CBA #63, if it's career-ending, his salary doesn't count against the cap after the team waives him, and after 60 days or one year (check the faq for details). The player still gets paid.

I've been always on the opinion they should just pay him next summer, but I also understand the player's anxiety.


But for the remainder of the contract, not from the 41 games in the waiting period.

My understanding (reading up on the Rose case) is that while insurance is obtained on a year to year basis, after the 41 games, the remainder of the season is covered, then if the player cannot play the next season, all 82 games are covered and so on (at 80% of base).

[exstatic]

As the guys said here, the bird contract could be some like 105M/5Y next summer, the Spurs'll want a discount and the situation will be the same, he wants the max, the Spurs want a pay cut...they won't reach agreement, won't sign the bird contract.
That's why I think the Spurs'll match the max offer (some 3years-fourth year player option offer) and he'll enter free agency in 2017

Your figure is way high for Kawhi's extension or another team's offer. For a player with his time in the NBA, he can get 5/$90M.

[Chinook]

Per the CBA #63, if it's career-ending, his salary doesn't count against the cap after the team waives him, and after 60 days or one year (check the faq for details). The player still gets paid.

That's true, but "career-ending" means that the player never plays another game. If Kawhi tries to make a return after sitting out for two year, the Spurs instantly get hit with a huge cap charge, even if the comeback is with another team. That's why Portland amnestied Roy instead of just injury-waiving him (and it's a great thing they did that).


My understanding (reading up on the Rose case) is that while insurance is obtained on a year to year basis, after the 41 games, the remainder of the season is covered, then if the player cannot play the next season, all 82 games are covered and so on (at 80% of base).

Again, true. And that's what I was getting at. The Spurs would still owe Leonard some money even in future years, but that first year, only about 40 percent of his contract would be covered, provided the company didn't exclude him in the first place. It's possible they would be able to do so in 2015, because the extension may be considered a new contract.

[Chinook]

Your figure is way high for Kawhi's extension or another team's offer. For a player with his time in the NBA, he can get 5/$90M.

WC's numbers come from my spit-balling. There's talk of the cap undergoing a mini-jump next summer. That would raise the cap considerably from what they're currently projecting. Along with that comes an increase in new max contracts. If the cap rises to $76 Million, for example, then Leonard's max is $105M/5. Even if it jumps to a modest $71 Million, the max would be $98M/5.

[ElNono]

That's true, but "career-ending" means that the player never plays another game. If Kawhi tries to make a return after sitting out for two year, the Spurs instantly get hit with a huge cap charge, even if the comeback is with another team. That's why Portland amnestied Roy instead of just injury-waiving him (and it's a great thing they did that).

Well, I was pointing out the "career-ending" case... but, regardless, the reality is the Spurs would survive. You could make the argument that such a scenario for Kawhi, on the other hand, would be devastating. And that, I think, it's what most agents drill to a player's head.

It's not my money though, I was just illustrating there's an extra risk implied in waiting for the player that was not mentioned, that's all. Carry on.

[objective]

Kawhi's max deal will be the fifth they've given out in the past 15 years

I'm not so sure about that. My memory is that Parker and Ginobili never received the max of their years of service. Duncan signed a max in 2000 and I think another max in 2003. That's all I count for max deals.

[Chinook]

My memory is that Parker and Ginobili never received the max of their years of service.

They both got max extensions. Ginobili's was actually pretty close to his FA max. Parker's wasn't, but that's what happens when you extend.

[objective]

I suppose, the extensions were only maxed in regards to the raises based on the ending year of the then current deal, but not free agent maxes. Manu was capable of a free agent deal starting at 16 based on his years of service and the cap numbers for the 10-11 season.

When compared to free agent max deals, they weren't the same, which is why I didn't think of them that way. Like how Bosh didn't even get the full max in 2010 but still was making about 2.5 more a year as a FA signing even with a year less in experience

[Richie]

WC's numbers come from my spit-balling. There's talk of the cap undergoing a mini-jump next summer. That would raise the cap considerably from what they're currently projecting. Along with that comes an increase in new max contracts. If the cap rises to $76 Million, for example, then Leonard's max is $105M/5. Even if it jumps to a modest $71 Million, the max would be $98M/5.

While possible, I think this is unlikely because the owners would be choosing to give the players more money. It would not be in the interest of any team looking to sign a player to a long term deal this summer to allow the cap to jump because as you have pointed out, it means their contract becomes more expensive.

I seriously doubt there will be any 'smoothing' for the new TV deal factored in to next years cap number.

[Richie]

Also with Pau coming out and saying he thinks it's possible that Marc could go to New York, it's not cut and dry that he stays in Memphis. Making sure the Spurs has the opportunity to get in to that conversation should be a top priority for the front office.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

At least I'm not alone...Sam Amick asks if the Spurs are making a mistake with Leonard.




http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/spurs/2014/10/30/kawhi-leonard-spurs-gregg-popovich-rc-buford-klay-thompson/18176469/

That's looking way too much into it. Pop has openly said Kawhi is leading the team into the post-Duncan era. All the Spurs have to do is say "Kawhi, you're getting your max contract. Just sign it next summer instead."

[kaji157]

Leonard is a great player, but not a cornerstone player by any means. Spurs should not max out by themselves a player that is having the ability to have his weaknesses by playing alongside 3 hall of famers.
Spurs should only max out a player like Anthony Davis or as an exception, LeBron. No one else.
What i would do is match the best offer Leonard could get next offseason, and then we will have 3 to 4 years to se what kind of player Leonard really is.
If he is the star that can carry a team that only has Tony Parker, then great, max him by then. But not now.

[Walton Buys Off Me]

What i would do is match the best offer Leonard could get next offseason, and then we will have 3 to 4 years to se what kind of player Leonard really is.


The bottom line is Leonard will be offered a max deal next year by another GM.

They will do it for one of two reasons (or both).

1. They want Leonard on their team and feel he's worth it
2. They want to force the Spurs' hand into paying him and affect their future maneuverability.

Either way, Leonard will get his offer.

Spurs are playing a dangerous game IMO.

If anyone doesn't think Leonard will get the max, they obviously haven't been following recent signings (i.e. Hayward, Parsons to name 2)

[kaji157]

The bottom line is Leonard will be offered a max deal next year by another GM.

They will do it for one of two reasons (or both).

1. They want Leonard on their team and feel he's worth it
2. They want to force the Spurs' hand into paying him and affect their future maneuverability.

Either way, Leonard will get his offer.

Spurs are playing a dangerous game IMO.

If anyone doesn't think Leonard will get the max, they obviously haven't been following recent signings (i.e. Hayward, Parsons to name 2)

Oh i do, but other teams could not offer as many years as the Spurs.
And i think the key for us is to have a few years of Leonard without Tim and Manu to see how good he really is on offense.
I assure you, that if Leonard gets a max deal 4 years worth, he won´t be a max player in 4 years. Because the Spurs won´t be championship caliber anymore, and that will be reflected on their players. Also the little media coverage we get right now is because 1) we are a great team, 2) the big 3, friends, heroes, legacy storyline. Once that is over, it would be a lot harder for players in the Spurs to get media attention.

[dabom]

Oh i do, but other teams could not offer as many years as the Spurs.
And i think the key for us is to have a few years of Leonard without Tim and Manu to see how good he really is on offense.
I assure you, that if Leonard gets a max deal 4 years worth, he won´t be a max player in 4 years. Because the Spurs won´t be championship caliber anymore, and that will be reflected on their players. Also the little media coverage we get right now is because 1) we are a great team, 2) the big 3, friends, heroes, legacy storyline. Once that is over, it would be a lot harder for players in the Spurs to get media attention.

Kawhi is worth the max for his defense. The numbers on offense will stay the same because of our system. Green, Splitter, and Kawhi can up their ppg if manu and tim call it quits. We will still be a contender even if those guys leave.

[Dex]

Spurs just need to position the fact that he'll get his max next year, and it will also give them more flexibility to put a better team around him.

[testies]

Lol at the idiots chanting "MVP", yes, yes, we know you guys badly wanted a black american as MVP, not Ginobili. But now you pay the price.

If anyone is retarded enough to pay the max for Leonard, go for it. I know Buford won't fuck this up

[benstanfield]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/spurs-star-kawhi-leonard-plans-to-explore-restricted-free-agency-in-2015-181115259.html

[benstanfield]

Alienating Kawhi's management and back-tracking on all of the face of the franchise talk is apparently worth waiting a year to see if he'll blow out a knee. Hmm.

[spurraider21]

if leonard signs a 4 year max elsewhere the spurs got exactly what they wanted. matching that offer would give us 4 years of leonard, and the $ would be less than if we outright offered him a max

[loveforthegame]

Leonard is so going to sign a Parsons like deal next summer. Spurs probably match but only have him short term.

[cjw]

Leonard is so going to sign a Parsons like deal next summer. Spurs probably match but only have him short term.

That's my worry but some on here have said that you can still throw the full max at him to match for full years.

He will be offered the full max the day after the postseason and may then agree to hold off on signing until FA plays out for a few days.

[Brunodf]

Thank God they didn't overreact and paid him the max

[Hoops Czar]

if leonard signs a 4 year max elsewhere the spurs got exactly what they wanted. matching that offer would give us 4 years of leonard, and the $ would be less than if we outright offered him a max


Not really. Some team is going to intentionally overpay by leaps and bounds knowing full well the Spurs will match any offer. This could impact their offseason spending on other free agents.

[Brunodf]

Not really. Some team is going to intentionally overpay by leaps and bounds knowing full well the Spurs will match any offer. This could impact their offseason spending on other free agents.

Yeah but if Kawhi is as smart as it seems he will not sign and tell the Spurs, then the Spurs will match...Just like they did with Splitter...

[toki9]

Hm...I wonder if there is a tacit side deal made to maximize the Spurs' ability to get free agents around Kawhi next summer...

[Baam]

There's no risk or downside tbh, there's no way he's taking the qualifying offer if he's so worried about money...

The only risk was to overreact to a 3 games stretch (let's not forget that Boris was the FMVP of quite a few journalists)... The future of the Spurs depends on getting a top level big like Gasol... The big question is : what do they do if they can't get that big in Free Agency... Kawhi doesn't see the big picture because he was on a contending team from his first day in the league and doesn't know what's it's like to stuck in the middle of the pack, and it's fine he doesn't have too, just has to keep quiet while Buford is dealing with what could be the most important offseason in forever...

[DPG21920]

:lmao this agent is about to learn the hard way tbh...What a got damn novice. You don't run to the press and leak stories and huff and puff and make empty threats when dealing with the Spurs. Not the right way to go about doing business and no one ever does that with the Spurs for good reason.

There is no "dangerous game" here. People are clearly deluisional, especially this agent, if he can't understand simple business. Throwing a tantruam because you don't get exactly what you want, when you want it is a losing game. If the risk is that Kawhi will sign a "Parson's Deal", then there's not much risk. He'll get to FA sooner and if he's proved he's worth more money by then (and he's willing to risk longer term security by taking a 2-3 year deal) then the Spurs would gladly pay. If he has sour grapes 2 years later after all the Spurs have proven as an organization, trade his ass.

[DPG21920]

What's even more hilarious about this rookie a** agent is he cites "the market being set" referring to Parsons/Hayward presumably, without realizing somehow that they both hit FA themselves and weren't extended :lol. That's with those two teams being no where near the transistion the Spurs could be going through with a guy like Tim retiring (and possibly Manu).

This guy (based on everything I've read) seems to be poision for Kawhi. If there is truly any seed of contempt or unhappiness then it sucks Kawhi has let an agent trying to make a name for himself off of Kawhi ruin something good.

[DPG21920]

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/da/dabab861ab069ada7c7a9b86f0da8235d393856d4c5fe513dc 50a0b6975de681.jpg

[TheGreatYacht]

Portland is about to mess around and ruin the Spurs... Like they did with Splitter's contract

[spurraider21]

Portland is about to mess around and ruin the Spurs... Like they did with Splitter's contract
the spurs are going to be willing to give leonard the max. there is no "messing"

[spurraider21]

Yeah but if Kawhi is as smart as it seems he will not sign and tell the Spurs, then the Spurs will match...Just like they did with Splitter...
if there is an officially signed offer sheet, the spurs will always be able to have access to it. splitter never signed an offer sheet with portland.

the difference is, the spurs are willing to pay Kawhi the max, so there's little negotiating going on here. with splitter it was a different story

[TheGreatYacht]

Kawhi's agent is the same SOB who convinced the Spurs to overpay for Errors... :lol I hope he gets hit by a VIA bus tbh

[Hoops Czar]

if there is an officially signed offer sheet, the spurs will always be able to have access to it. splitter never signed an offer sheet with portland.

the difference is, the spurs are willing to pay Kawhi the max, so there's little negotiating going on here. with splitter it was a different story
Kawhi hasn't shown to be a max player yet. What a foolish notion it would be to throw max money at a player based on future potential. The Spurs have just recovered from the egregious RJ contract and I doubt the Spurs would be willing to pay max type money to a player who averages 15.8/6.2/2.0 per game. Someone will offer him a Parsons type deal and the Spurs will match. I'm worried about some team offering him a bloated Jeremy Lin type deal that screws up the team's future financial flexibility.

Anyhow, Kawhi should be in for a big year knowing he has a chance to be paid big bucks in the offseason.

[Hoops Czar]

Kawhi's agent is the same SOB who convinced the Spurs to overpay for Errors... :lol I hope he gets hit by a VIA bus tbh
Any agent that can not only get Ayres a job but, get some team to pay him double what any other team would have been willing to pay is a damn good agent. Ayres is living the good life and he has his agent to thank for it because if not for him, he'd be playing overseas.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Kawhi hasn't shown to be a max player yet. What a foolish notion it would be to throw max money at a player based on future potential. The Spurs have just recovered from the egregious RJ contract and I doubt the Spurs would be willing to pay max type money to a player who averages 15.8/6.2/2.0 per game. Someone will offer him a Parsons type deal and the Spurs will match. I'm worried about some team offering him a bloated Jeremy Lin type deal that screws up the team's future financial flexibility.

Anyhow, Kawhi should be in for a big year knowing he has a chance to be paid big bucks in the offseason.

WTF :lol Spurs FO will be dancing in the riverwalk if Kawhi signs a Jeremy Lin type deal lol

He's getting the max next summer.

[Hoops Czar]

WTF :lol Spurs FO will be dancing in the riverwalk if Kawhi signs a Jeremy Lin type deal lol

He's getting the max next summer.

A bloated Jeremy Lin deal with a egregious backend payday. Don't forget though, You have to save some money for Danny Green's max contract. Where is all this money going to come from?

[Harry Callahan]

This agent's clients list is Kawhi and a bunch of spares TBH. This Elfus guy wanted to get paid big today and was crying like a baby to Woj when he failed to do so.

Pretty amateurish stuff. Hopefully Leonard will find someone to provide sound advise/council in the future.

[baseline bum]

A bloated Jeremy Lin deal with a egregious backend payday. Don't forget though, You have to save some money for Danny Green's max contract. Where is all this money going to come from?

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Malik Hairston]

Kawhi is going to get all the money he wants, and Danny Green is going to get paid, too..

Klay Thompson(a slightly better version of Danny Green) just got a 17.5 per year extension..

Alec Burks(who?) just signed for 10 mil per year:lol..

This off-season had Jodie Meeks sign for 6 per year..

Not to mention the notorious Hayward and Parsons deal..

Ya, Kawhi and Danny are obviously getting paid, the former will get whatever he wants, too..

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

A bloated Jeremy Lin deal with a egregious backend payday. Don't forget though, You have to save some money for Danny Green's max contract. Where is all this money going to come from?

He can't get a backloaded max contract.

[Aztecfan03]

When you sign with the Spurs, you get additional benefits than most other teams.

-50 win team
-Deep playoff run
-Lots of rest
-Minimum distractions
-Best coach and FO of the NBA
-We take care of our own
-No state income tax
I would take 14mil for 4 years if I was Kawhi. Lots of benefits when you play here.

[Diego20]

Tony and Manu (in their prime) never earned more than 16 mill a year and some people here wants Kawhi earns 90 mill for 5 years? LOL

I Like Kawhi but he can't earn that averaging 13 points per game..

[Dverde]

I wouldn't take a short deal like Parsons. It's your first deal and it can set you for life. Injuries happen. Get as much as you can in your first real contract.

[Hoops Czar]

He can't get a backloaded max contract.


I know. I wasn't talking about max money. However, you can't disrespect Danny green, Lol. Leonard's numbers aren't that superior to Green's (And Green is not a max player). If Kawhi wants max money, he needs to play like he did in last year's finals, consistently throughout the entire season. Based on overall production to this point, his numbers don't suggest max. Small market teams usually don't hand out max contracts like candy (no Halloween pun intended) based on future potential. It will be interesting to see how Leonard fares when two of the big three retire and Kawhi is constantly double teamed and his only other option is to defer to an older Tony Parker. Can he still carry the load offensively without fault?

[dabom]

How could I forget that one.

[ElNono]

I know. I wasn't talking about max money. However, you can't disrespect Danny green, Lol. Leonard's numbers aren't that superior to Green's (And Green is not a max player). If Kawhi wants max money, he needs to play like he did in last year's finals, consistently throughout the entire season. Based on overall production to this point, his numbers don't suggest max. Small market teams usually don't hand out max contracts like candy (no Halloween pun intended) based on future potential. It will be interesting to see how Leonard fares when two of the big three retire and Kawhi is constantly double teamed and has to defer to an older Tony Parker. Can he still carry the load offensively without fault?

Doesn't really matter what we think about the players. The price will be set by the market. If Kawhi gets offered the max next summer, that's his value. Same with Danny.

[Hoops Czar]

Doesn't really matter what we think about the players. The price will be set by the market. If Kawhi gets offered the max next summer, that's his value. Same with Danny.

True. And if Danny Green gets a max offer, he's gone.

[dabom]

True. And if Danny Green gets a max offer, he's gone.

Which fucking team gives him the max? :lmao

[Hoops Czar]

There were posters here that thought Mills would get 8-10 Mil per. Didn't happen.

[ElNono]

True. And if Danny Green gets a max offer, he's gone.

Maybe. I don't think he will, but we'll see.

[Hoops Czar]

Which fucking team gives him the max? :lmao

Nobody!!!!

[Baam]

I don't want to imagine a scenario where Green walks and BelinoD is re-signed, that'd be a nightmare, seriously...

[dbreiden83080]

When you sign with the Spurs, you get additional benefits than most other teams.

-50 win team
-Deep playoff run
-Lots of rest
-Minimum distractions
-Best coach and FO of the NBA
-We take care of our own

I would take 14mil for 4 years if I was Kawhi. Lots of benefits when you play here.

This is likely Duncan's final season so a lot of those perks mentioned will be greatly diminished.

[024]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/spurs-star-kawhi-leonard-plans-to-explore-restricted-free-agency-in-2015-181115259.html

Leonard's agent sounds like a jackass. Running to the media after the talks end to say "Leonard wants to explore the restricted free agency." The Spurs usually keep contract negotiations away from the media but this guy is running to the media and hoping to leverage that. Hope it's mostly the agent pulling the strings and Leonard fires his ass soon.

He sounds like he wants to make a name for himself as a power broker. Looking at his client list, he mostly represents bottom of the barrel players and probably sees Leonard as his ticket to the big time. It was obvious from the moment the finals ended with him trotting out Leonard to all the big media outlets trying to get blast Leonard's brand everywhere.

I can't help but think he wants to bring Leonard to a big market like LA, Boston, or NY for a selfish career gain. With the restricted free agency, he might push Leonard hard to sign a short term contract offer and have the Spurs match. Then push Leonard to another team after that contract ends. I don't think we've heard the last of him.

[baseline bum]

When you sign with the Spurs, you get additional benefits than most other teams.

-50 win team
-Deep playoff run
-Lots of rest
-Minimum distractions
-Best coach and FO of the NBA
-We take care of our own

I would take 14mil for 4 years if I was Kawhi. Lots of benefits when you play here.

I would take my market value of a max deal. LOL everyone expecting athletes to take pay cuts. They have short careers. They don't have tax loopholes like hedge fund managers and CEOs who can pay a capital gains tax instead of an income tax. They have talents no one else in the world does and get paid on the merit of their skills and expected future production, not on having friends in high places.

[Uriel]

The Spurs' team philosophy has always been about teamwork and sacrificing for the greater good. I sincerely hope Brian Eflus' personal ambitions for wealth and power don't veer Kawhi away from that philosophy.

[baseline bum]

The Spurs' team philosophy has always been about teamwork and sacrificing for the greater good. I sincerely hope Brian Eflus' personal ambitions for wealth and power don't veer Kawhi away from that philosophy.

Tim Duncan took max. David Robinson took most of the capspace in 2001. Sacrificing your numbers on the court for the greater good of the team is one thing, but sacrificing your pay because of your lower numbers is another. Kawhi Leonard's not stupid; he's going to sign a market value contract and the Spurs will happily pay it.

[Uriel]

Tim Duncan took max. David Robinson took most of the capspace in 2001. Sacrificing your numbers on the court for the greater good of the team is one thing, but sacrificing your pay because of your lower numbers is another. Kawhi Leonard's not stupid; he's going to sign a market value contract and the Spurs will happily pay it.
First of all Leonard isn't a Duncan / Robinson-type player and he likely never will. But I do agree that his market value is in max territory (especially in this free agent market) and he is well within his right to sign the best offer he can get.

What I was referring to is his personal attitude. Brian Elfus' comments reek of selfishness and insecurity. I hope that kind of attitude doesn't become a negative influence on Kawhi.

[rasuo214]

Kawhi isn't going to take a pay cut, maybe if guys like Duncan, Manu and Parker were in their prime things would be different. The reality is the Spurs future is uncertain, Duncan and Manu aren't sticking around much longer and who knows how long Pop will stick around. He'll be getting the max next year, the question is which team will be paying him.

[Mel_13]

Kawhi isn't going to take a pay cut, maybe if guys like Duncan, Manu and Parker were in their prime things would be different. The reality is the Spurs future is uncertain, Duncan and Manu aren't sticking around much longer and who knows how long Pop will stick around. He'll be getting the max next year, the question is which team will be paying him.

The Spurs will be paying, the only question is the length of the contract.

[Aztecfan03]

Tony and Manu (in their prime) never earned more than 16 mill a year and some people here wants Kawhi earns 90 mill for 5 years? LOL

I Like Kawhi but he can't earn that averaging 13 points per game..

The Cap is also a higher now

[Aztecfan03]

There were posters here that thought Mills would get 8-10 Mil per. Didn't happen.

Mills' injury probably had something to do with that.

[wildchild]

Leonard is so going to sign a Parsons like deal next summer. Spurs probably match but only have him short term.

Agree. That's gonna happen.
There is not incentive for Leonard to stay in SA after 2017, no Tim/Pop/Manu, a small market/rebuilding team, and he'll have the opportunity to play for a real contender in a big market (which is supposedly his agent wants)


There is no "dangerous game" here. People are clearly deluisional, especially this agent, if he can't understand simple business. Throwing a tantruam because you don't get exactly what you want, when you want it is a losing game. If the risk is that Kawhi will sign a "Parson's Deal", then there's not much risk. He'll get to FA sooner and if he's proved he's worth more money by then (and he's willing to risk longer term security by taking a 2-3 year deal) then the Spurs would gladly pay. If he has sour grapes 2 years later after all the Spurs have proven as an organization, trade his ass.

He doesn't need to prove anything. Thompson, Parsons, Hayward aren't better players than Kawhi and the market said they're max players. Sure, the Spurs would gladly pay but why Kawhi will want to stay in SA after 2017 if he can sign with a better team than the rebuilding Spurs.

[Hoops Czar]

Agree. That's gonna happen.
There is not incentive for Leonard to stay in SA after 2017, no Tim/Pop/Manu, a small market/rebuilding team, and he'll have the opportunity to play for a real contender in a big market (which is supposedly his agent wants)

If Leonard is truly the cornerstone of the franchise, why would he want to leave? Leonard is supposedly the player you build around. Looking forward to the new big three already... Leonard, Green and Splitter.


He doesn't need to prove anything. Thompson, Parsons, Hayward aren't better players than Kawhi and the market said they're max players. Sure, the Spurs would gladly pay but why Kawhi will want to stay in SA after 2017 if he can sign with a better team than the rebuilding Spurs.

Does three wrongs make a right? Klay didn't have a market because he never made it to free agency. I know a player who didn't get a max contract... Lance Stephenson

Points/Rebounds/Assists

Lance 13.8/7.2/4.6
Kawhi 12.8/6.2/2.0

It's not a slam dunk he gets the max if he doesn't improve over his first three years and show more consistency, especially on offense.

[spurraider21]

Points/Rebounds/Assists

Lance 13.8/7.2/4.6
Kawhi 12.8/6.2/2.0

It's not a slam dunk he gets the max if he doesn't improve over his first three years and show more consistency, especially on offense.
a) teams know the spurs prohibit players from accumulating huge totals
b) everybody watched the playoffs the last 2 years

[Hoops Czar]

a) teams know the spurs prohibit players from accumulating huge totals
b) everybody watched the playoffs the last 2 years

Lol, now that's funny. So does Indiana...everybody knows this. BTW, TP averaged 23 PPG last season. You need a bigger sample size than two playoff series.

[wildchild]

If Leonard is truly the cornerstone of the franchise, why would he want to leave? Leonard is supposedly the player you build around. Looking forward to the new big three already... Leonard, Green and Splitter.

You are kidding me, right? Big markets are big money. It's not only about a big NBA contract, it's about all attention and extra-money you make playing on a big market team...Why he would want to be the face of a rebuilding franchise/part of Big3, when he can play after 2017 in LA or NY.


I know a player who didn't get a max contract... Lance Stephenson

Points/Rebounds/Assists

Lance 13.8/7.2/4.6
Kawhi 12.8/6.2/2.0

Sorry, I won't spend my time reading a guy who thinks Stephenson and Leonard are basically the same player...

[wildchild]

http://i.imgur.com/GEjBxm4l.jpg

23ppg last season :lol

[Hoops Czar]

You are kidding me, right? Big markets are big money. It's not only about a big NBA contract, it's about all attention and extra-money you make playing on a big market team...Why he would want to be the face of a rebuilding franchise/part of Big3, when he can play after 2017 in LA or NY.



Sorry, I won't spend my time reading a guy who thinks Stephenson and Leonard are basically the same player...

a.] They won't be rebuilding. They'll have Kawhi Leonard and a nucleus that surrounds him. Duncan didn't leave when Robinson retired. Parker was a shell of the player he is now and he could have left to go to a bigger market. Durant is still in OKC. Btw, there's a salary cap so there is no extra money. Since when is Kawhi an attention whore?

b.] Sorry, stats talk whether you like it or not. Small market teams don't hand out max deals without seeing some results. The Spurs in particular, won't hand out a max based on good intentions and hopeful potential.

[Hoops Czar]

http://i.imgur.com/GEjBxm4l.jpg

23ppg last season :lol
I accidently looked at this year. 6 years in his career he averaged more than 18 ppg.

[Brunodf]

Our max contract player doing work so far. +19

[Hoops Czar]

Our max contract player doing work so far. +19

And he has all the motivation in the world.

[Brunodf]

And he has all the motivation in the world.
He should take more shots though...The Spurs wasted so many possessions overpassing

[Hoops Czar]

He should take more shots though...The Spurs wasted so many possessions overpassing

In due time...

[noles1983]

In due time...

looking at his stat line tonight just screams max money :rolleyes

[loveforthegame]

Leonard must be thrilled with the 23 minutes tonight.

[dg7md]

He needs it, even if he doesn't deserve the deal, we have no choice but to keep him because some team WILL overpay him due to him being so young and a Finals MVP already.

[wildchild]

Btw, there's a salary cap so there is no extra money. Since when is Kawhi an attention whore?
Big market extra money isn't about teams contract it's about advertisement revenue, the player as selling signature, getting attention in orden to sell every thing.


Small market teams don't hand out max deals without seeing some results
Results? great playoffs, amazing two consecutive finals defending the best NBA player...However, Harden had better scoring numbers than Leonard so I think OKC saw the results.
But they didn't re-sign him and we -and the rest of the league- still benefit from OKC being cheap...I wonder what team will be the beneficiary -in long terms- of Leonard no-extension.

[Chillen]

Spurs FO should be a little concerned here, some team will definitely overpay for him it will happen. NBA champion, Finals MVP, younger player, bet your ass they will. Not every Spurs player will take less money to stay and build a winning team like Duncan and Manu.

[xellos88330]

Spurs FO should be a little concerned here, some team will definitely overpay for him it will happen. NBA champion, Finals MVP, younger player, bet your ass they will. Not every Spurs player will take less money to stay and build a winning team like Duncan and Manu.

I am not so sure that it really is that much of an issue. Kawhi knows he has already impressed the Spurs. Now he has to prove it to the rest of the NBA for this season. If Kawhi wants that max contract, he has no choice but to play like it for this season. If his performance falters this year, teams might be hesitant and not want to risk a max contract on a 1 hit wonder who is allegedly a product of the Spurs system. If he does well enough to warrant a max contract for another team, the Spurs can just match it. Regardless, the onus is on Kawhi to get that money this year. He will most likely work harder and play harder.

I think the Spurs FO knows what they are doing.

[Mugen]

Get your money 'Whi. Dem hoes ain't loyal tbh.

[rasuo214]

I am not so sure that it really is that much of an issue. Kawhi knows he has already impressed the Spurs. Now he has to prove it to the rest of the NBA for this season. If Kawhi wants that max contract, he has no choice but to play like it for this season. If his performance falters this year, teams might be hesitant and not want to risk a max contract on a 1 hit wonder who is allegedly a product of the Spurs system. If he does well enough to warrant a max contract for another team, the Spurs can just match it. Regardless, the onus is on Kawhi to get that money this year. He will most likely work harder and play harder.

I think the Spurs FO knows what they are doing.

Yea but that can cause some issues. Kawhi already wanted more minutes and opportunities, now the Spurs are adding a future contract on top of that (where the minutes and opportunities he gets impacts his next contract). I doubt Kawhi will become a locker room issue but that could lead to some resentment when it comes to the next off-season depending on how things are handled.

[wildchild]

If Kawhi wants that max contract, he has no choice but to play like it for this season. If his performance falters this year, teams might be hesitant and not want to risk a max contract on a 1 hit wonder who is allegedly a product of the Spurs system.

I don't hear any GM said he's a system product, instead they voted for him as the best perimeter defender in the league no named Lebron, and they think he'll command a max offer sheet on the market next summer according to Woj.

I'm not sure if he doesn't take the leap this season or if he doesn't have at least a good season, that implies he won't receive a max offer.

Like some rumors, I guess a title contender team -or just a rich rebuilding team, WC rival or not- will try to lure Leonard offering him a short term max deal.
If the Spurs match it, they don't lose nothing and the Spurs would have less money to spend on other free agents, if the Spurs don't match, they would lose their younger and promising player.
I think it's a win-win situation for any team in the league.


If he does well enough to warrant a max contract for another team, the Spurs can just match it. Regardless, the onus is on Kawhi to get that money this year. He will most likely work harder and play harder.

I think the Spurs FO knows what they are doing.

They'll match a short offer and he'll hit the market in 2017...Obviously, I trust in our FO, but we can't act like they never make a mistake about SF contracts...

[LkrFan]

:lol Lakers fans on Twitter getting excited about the Lakers possibly luring him to LA

Isn't he from Killa Cali? :downspin:

[wildchild]

Yea but that can cause some issues. Kawhi already wanted more minutes and opportunities, now the Spurs are adding a future contract on top of that (where the minutes and opportunities he gets impacts his next contract). I doubt Kawhi will become a locker room issue but that could lead to some resentment when it comes to the next off-season depending on how things are handled.

I wouldn't worry about any locker room issue, Leonard is young but not stupid.
He won't say nothing, his agent will do the dirty job.

He would talk to reports about how Leonard is frustrated with not playing more minutes, no being an offensive option, making know every GM's he wants a change.
Like he did yesterday, running to the press when the talks ended.

His agent knows he can't force a trade this season, but -after a season with the relationship on the rocks- expressing his discontent could be an open door next summer.
I think if they reach a point of no return, let Leonard walk would be the best for both sides.

[Man In Black]

WC....where you getting all this info? The logic trail doesn't fit.
His Agent can't do shit.
He can't force a trade, he can't play like shit. Doing so would impact any contract offer from any team. It's in his best interest to play well. Once he does that, the teams will now offer him a deal, the Spurs will simply match and they own him, lock, stock, and barrel. Where's this open door you speak of?
Explain.

[loveforthegame]

The only talk we've had is from Leonard's agent. Maybe Leonard feels the same or maybe he's just letting his agent do his job. Whether we like it or not it's his job to get the best deal for Leonard. Not worry about discounts for the Spurs or keep quiet in the press.

If Leonard is unhappy his best move is to sign a Parson like deal and become a free agent in 2017. Spurs match and keep him for 2 years and Leonard goes his own way after that.

Should make for a fun summer.

[wildchild]

WC....where you getting all this info? The logic trail doesn't fit.
His Agent can't do shit.
He can't force a trade, he can't play like shit. Doing so would impact any contract offer from any team. It's in his best interest to play well. Once he does that, the teams will now offer him a deal, the Spurs will simply match and they own him, lock, stock, and barrel. Where's this open door you speak of?
Explain.

Leonard said he wants more minutes to be more consistent and increase numbers, but I don't think Pop will play him 38 mpg like other young players in the league.
It's crazy to think he might get frustrated if he doesn't play more, or if he doesn't play the more prominent offensive role he wants?.

Obviosuly he's playing for a deal, I'm not saying Leonard will play bad, he developed his game every season.
I'm just saying even if he doesn't have a good season he still can receive a max offer next summer.
If he gets frustrated enough next summer more teams will be interested. Sure the Spurs will match...a short-term offer.

Just for the record. Like you, I said "his agent knows he can't force a trade".
But he can play hard his-client-frustration/discontent card to get the attention of another teams, he knows Lakers, NYK, and more teams are salivating over the possility of stealing Leonard.

It's illogical, an unreasonable view? Well, you know, people think and react to the same facts in different ways ...

[Man In Black]

The market has already been set. Is Klay Thompson, Gordon Hayward or Alec Burks worth their deals? That's the market at play. Who says that Kawhi wants to play 38 minutes per game?
Champions Revealed has a segment where Pop says that he wrecks his player's stats because he pulls his stars in the 4th quarter, but the tradeoff is that the team is better because of it. There is nothing wrong with that logic. He's sitting in the catbird seat right now. He'll be allowed to grow and flourish as a 3rd or 4th option. Tim and Manu, will probably be done playing after this season, now Kawhi is the #1a or #1b option with TP and that summer, he'll still be getting max. How frustrated can he be?
You need to say which short term offer he'd take? if he's as you say, frustrated.

Those other teams you talk about, can't really do shit to steal Kawhi. For Kawhi to leave and earlier than 2017, he would have to take a Chandler Parsons type deal. 3 years max, last year is player option. But still, he's here until 2017. The Lakers will be making a play for 2016 because that is when Kobe's deal expires. They will pinpoint that time period because Laker fan will be foaming at the mouth after 2 years of suckage. NYK still has the Albatross that is Carmelo Anthony. And other teams? Who are we talking about here?

But, this is Spurstalk. What's the beauty of Kawhi not signing a deal on Halloween? Provided Manu and Tim retire, there is now 9M in cap space that is there BECAUSE KAWHI didn't sign on Halloween. Had he tried to force the Spurs hands, that 9M is gone. But because, he played ball....


http://ripcityproject.com/2014/06/24/tim-duncan-opts-complicates-lamarcus-aldridge-free-agency/
From that article, these line is what we need to pay attention to:

Although the Spurs have been historically quiet on the major free agent front, they have not had cause to be loud until now. They are about to age out of the “Big 3 era” (for real this time) and are designed to recuperate instantaneously.

They will not refurbish their roster via trade because they will have virtually no contracts to barter, and they will not get a lot done in the draft because they will not be bad enough next season to get a high draft pick. It will have to be free agency or the much trickier sign-and-trade. So whose door will they come knocking on if Duncan decides next season is enough for him and they want an elite power forward in his stead? Aldridge’s. Look at the league’s other high quality PFs:

Blake Griffin: Signed through 2018
Anthony Davis: Will be in NOLA through at least 2017
Kevin Love: Expected to commit to new team once traded
Dirk Nowitzki: Dedicated to re-signing in Dallas (also, 112 years old)
David Lee: Signed through 2016
Zach Randolph: Will be signed to a multiyear deal within the month
Serge Ibaka: Signed through 2017
Chris Bosh: Will be signed to a multiyear deal within the month
Paul Millsap: The most viable option aside from Aldridge
Derrick Favors: Signed through 2018
Most of these players will be unavailable to them. Those that were available to them this year are no longer, because Duncan has displaced the Spurs’ need for a predecessor by another season. San Antonio’s best options for a power forward in 2015 free agency are Aldridge (elite), Millsap (fringe elite), or a mid-tier kind of guy like Kenneth Faried. Who would you double down on?

Of course, many stars have to align for this to be truly concerning, but the present concern is the likelihood of celestial alignment. It is likely that Aldridge forgoes a contract extension; it is likely that Duncan retires next year; and it is likely that the Spurs will pursue a positional replacement. By opting in, Duncan increased the odds on at least the second two happening.

Ignoring other suitors and any projected sense of allegiance for the time being, think about who Aldridge would pick if choosing between Portland and San Antonio in 2015. The Trail Blazers would have to slightly disassemble their core in order to afford him, while the most successful franchise in the modern NBA tries to woo him back to his home state with wads upon wads of cash. Warning bells should be ringing if they are not already.

Since Duncan’s decision to play another season has delayed San Antonio’s free agency push into Aldridge’s window of availability, things could get much hairier for Portland next year. A lot could happen between now and then, but the Spurs have placed themselves in prime position to pursue Aldridge. If they make the decision to go after him, his own decision will be far more complicated.

[ace3g]

Agents of change, influence on KawhiBy Buck Harvey

November 1, 2014 | Updated: November 1, 2014 11:10pm

It’s July of 2000. The Orlando Magic already have made their pitch to Tim Duncan, and now it is the Spurs’ turn.

In a luxurious San Antonio apartment that overlooks the river, Gregg Popovich and R.C. Buford are trying to tell Duncan what is going to happen during the next few years if he stays. When there is no way to know.

continue reading: http://www.expressnews.com/sports/columnists/buck_harvey/article/Agents-ofchange-influenceon-Kawhi-5863985.php?cmpid=twitter-premium&t=b2a74d2f1de4660723

[loveforthegame]

Shots being fired by both sides doesn't help the situation.

Wonder if Leonard sticks with Elfus or gets a new agent.

[Mugen]

Shots being fired by both sides doesn't help the situation.

Wonder if Leonard sticks with Elfus or gets a new agent.

Yeah, best thing for both sides is if it becomes a non-issue til next summer.

[DPG21920]

:lmao this agent is about to learn the hard way tbh...What a got damn novice. You don't run to the press and leak stories and huff and puff and make empty threats when dealing with the Spurs. Not the right way to go about doing business and no one ever does that with the Spurs for good reason.

There is no "dangerous game" here. People are clearly deluisional, especially this agent, if he can't understand simple business. Throwing a tantruam because you don't get exactly what you want, when you want it is a losing game. If the risk is that Kawhi will sign a "Parson's Deal", then there's not much risk. He'll get to FA sooner and if he's proved he's worth more money by then (and he's willing to risk longer term security by taking a 2-3 year deal) then the Spurs would gladly pay. If he has sour grapes 2 years later after all the Spurs have proven as an organization, trade his ass.


What's even more hilarious about this rookie a** agent is he cites "the market being set" referring to Parsons/Hayward presumably, without realizing somehow that they both hit FA themselves and weren't extended :lol. That's with those two teams being no where near the transistion the Spurs could be going through with a guy like Tim retiring (and possibly Manu).

This guy (based on everything I've read) seems to be poision for Kawhi. If there is truly any seed of contempt or unhappiness then it sucks Kawhi has let an agent trying to make a name for himself off of Kawhi ruin something good.

So basically Buck saying this ^


Agents of change, influence on KawhiBy Buck Harvey

November 1, 2014 | Updated: November 1, 2014 11:10pm

It’s July of 2000. The Orlando Magic already have made their pitch to Tim Duncan, and now it is the Spurs’ turn.

In a luxurious San Antonio apartment that overlooks the river, Gregg Popovich and R.C. Buford are trying to tell Duncan what is going to happen during the next few years if he stays. When there is no way to know.

continue reading: http://www.expressnews.com/sports/columnists/buck_harvey/article/Agents-ofchange-influenceon-Kawhi-5863985.php?cmpid=twitter-premium&t=b2a74d2f1de4660723

[ElNono]

Agent Buck doing RC's bidding... nothing to see here...

[Baam]

Agents of change, influence on Kawhi

By Buck Harvey

November 1, 2014 | Updated: November 1, 2014 11:10pm

It’s July of 2000. The Orlando Magic already have made their pitch to Tim Duncan, and now it is the Spurs’ turn.

In a luxurious San Antonio apartment that overlooks the river, Gregg Popovich and R.C. Buford are trying to tell Duncan what is going to happen during the next few years if he stays. When there is no way to know.

continue reading: http://www.expressnews.com/sports/columnists/buck_harvey/article/Agents-ofchange-influenceon-Kawhi-5863985.php?cmpid=twitter-premium&t=b2a74d2f1de4660723

Good read :tu.

[DPG21920]

Good read :tu.

Thanks, I don't write very much, but when I do I try to make it on important topics. :tu

[wildchild]

Who says that Kawhi wants to play 38 minutes per game?
Or 35 minutes.

“In the Finals I’m playing 35 minutes a game, so I’m on the floor more and able to score the ball more and get more rebounds,” he said. “So I’m going to have to get consistent minutes to play at a consistent level like that...“It’s just in order to get me more involved in the offense, that’s what I go by. Like I said, if I’m going to get seven more minutes on the floor, that’s going to be important. We’ll see what happens. I mean, my role was supposed to expand last year and we played pretty much the same basketball.”



Tim and Manu, will probably be done playing after this season, now Kawhi is the #1a or #1b option with TP and that summer, he'll still be getting max. How frustrated can he be?
He wanted the max this last offseason, he wants to play more this season, he wants be the 1b option this season (he isn't the 1a-1b option if we look usage percentage he was the 4th/5th option on the floor last regular season), how frustrated can he be if he doesn't play more this season and should wait another season? A lot? A bit? Who knows.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say he can't deal with the frustration to play good this season, he has champ mindset and he's mentally tough enough to handle the pressure.
I just said his frustration could be an important factor in making decision next summer.


You need to say which short term offer he'd take? if he's as you say, frustrated.
Well, I don't need to say nothing but I can try to share my opinion like any of us here.
But if you answered your own question ("he would have to take a Chandler Parsons type deal. 3 years max, last year is player option"), why you ask me the same again?

Some possible scenarios:

-His agent fails to find the max offer Leonard wants, the Spurs offer him a good deal but not the max money, he's discontented with his role/few minutes and the fact the team aren't willing to offer the max...he accepts his qualifying offer to hit the market in 2016.

-Leonard receives a max short-term offer, the Spurs offer a long-term/near-max contrat, but not the max, he refuses to sign our deal because a-it's not the max he wants b-he wants to hit the market in 2007 c-he is discontented with his role/few minutes...he signs the offer sheet with the other, then the Spurs match (again) a short-term offer.

Best scenario? With the cap increasing and new TV deal, the Spurs can offer him a bird max contract. But we can't be sure (neither about matching any offer he receives, we heard the same about Asik, Parsons and others..).


Those other teams you talk about, can't really do shit to steal Kawhi. For Kawhi to leave and earlier than 2017, he would have to take a Chandler Parsons type deal. 3 years max, last year is player option. But still, he's here until 2017. The Lakers will be making a play for 2016 because that is when Kobe's deal expires. They will pinpoint that time period because Laker fan will be foaming at the mouth after 2 years of suckage. NYK still has the Albatross that is Carmelo Anthony. And other teams? Who are we talking about here?
The Lakers can sign big name FA in both years. If they don't reach contender status in 2016, they will be very aggressive in the free agent market in 2017, but I still think they can offer Leonard a max short-term deal in 2015, that deal doesn't ruin his cap space.
About NYK even with Melo, Phil Jackson wouldn't like Leonard? During his years as coach, he surround Jordan and Kobe with talented and elite defensive players like Kawhi to win ships.


Since Duncan’s decision to play another season has delayed San Antonio’s free agency push into Aldridge’s window of availability, things could get much hairier for Portland next year. A lot could happen between now and then, but the Spurs have placed themselves in prime position to pursue Aldridge. If they make the decision to go after him, his own decision will be far more complicated.
It would be great if we can sign Aldridge.
I don't want to sound pessimistic but the Spurs'll make a run at some big name like him or Gasol, those players probably re-sign with their teams or sign with a big market team, and then the Spurs overpay for middle-level talent signing Millsap.

[wildchild]

Agent Buck doing RC's bidding... nothing to see here...

[wildchild]

"The details of what he has said in off-the-record conversations with other members of the media cannot be repeated, but the gist is this: He has come across as petty and angry and unprofessional. "..."Based on how Elfus has responded"
This sounds more like some guy of FO was talking with Buck, than Buck talking with other reporters.

Leonard won't fire Elfus so it's not a good idea if they try to discredit his agent.