Bird, Magic, Isiah, Wilt and Kareem were better than MJ

[lefty]

There, I said it

[gnsf0946]

They were but then Phil and Pippen came along.

[Infinite_limit]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-22318-Michael-Jordan-ball-fake-gif-SvYu.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e2d6fdfd710bf8fe1e04272497ccc8c3/tumblr_n1od3bpYHX1svefdfo3_400.gif

[Blake]

There, I said it

feel better?

[gnsf0946]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-22318-Michael-Jordan-ball-fake-gif-SvYu.gif

:lmao thinking MJ is gonna pass the ball

[Clipper Nation]

Don't forget MVPippen :worthy:

Dad Killer = Bird's bitchPERIOD

[lefty]

feel better?
Is that what you asked your wife after Lemarcus left ?

[Blake]

Is that what you asked your wife after Lemarcus left ?

oh noes.

Good thread. Will put on instagram

[Sean Cagney]

:lmao thinking MJ is gonna pass the ball

He did average over 8 assists one year and that is good for a SG..... Just saying.

[unforeseen]

As long as Kirby doesn't ring.

[lefty]

He did average over 8 assists one year and that is good for a SG..... Just saying.
He played PG that season, not SG


And he didnt like it

[Sean Cagney]

He played PG that season, not SG


And he didnt like it
He averaged 8 and 8 correct? 8 Boards and 8 Assists? That is good for a PG wouldn't you say? 8 Boards a game and over 30PPG, impressive no matter how you stack it up.

He replaced someone injured, he did not play the PG the whole year Lefty. He did do it quite a few games but not the whole year.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games

He was very impressive at the PG position.

[lefty]

He averaged 8 and 8 correct? 8 Boards and 8 Assists? That is good for a PG wouldn't you say? 8 Boards a game and over 30PPG, impressive no matter how you stack it up.

He replaced someone injured, he did not play the PG the whole year Lefty. He did do it quite a few games but not the whole year.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games

He was very impressive at the PG position.
but you said "Pretty good for a SG"

but anyway Jordan was so ball dominant before KFC took over; he was going to get his points, and when the defense collapsed on him, he HAD to pass the ball, so he was going to get his assists to.

[Cry Havoc]

and when the defense collapsed on him, he HAD to pass the ball, so he was going to get his assists to.

Kobe forgot to write this down on a post-it note, evidently.

[Cry Havoc]

:lol Lefty with the bads again. Terribads. :lol

[lefty]

:lol Lefty with the bads again. Terribads. :lol Malik Hairston (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18403)


And Cry Havoc, are you still mad bout the Enrique truth nukes we dropped upstairs? :lol

[ambchang]

People always get this idea that Jordan could do no wrong, and I disagree.

He's a very difficult player to build around, and required a special makeup of a team to win those 6 championships. Look at those two three peat teams, they were pretty much a carbon copy of each other, and it required Phil Jackson, one of the best in stroking egos, to make that work.

We all know Jordan needs someone like a Pippen to win, because he would need another guy who can defend the perimeter and orchestrate the offense, but he also requires a couple of dead eye outside shooters (BJ Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr), a rugged rebounder and interior defender (Grant/Rodman), and a bunch of interchangeable centers who can pass and shoot from 15 (Cartwright, Perdue, Longley). This was an unorthodox lineup, and while none of them are superstar level players (other than Pippen), they all compliment Jordan and made up for his weaknesses.

On the other hand, a player like Bird (82 vs. 86), Magic (80 vs. 87 and 88), and Kareem (71 vs. 85) can all contribute in a different way to a team playing a different role, with a different group of slightly different makeup of a team to win a championship.

It depends what you mean by a better player, but Jordan is not really as good and easy to win a championship with as people make him out to be.

[Blake]

...they all compliment Jordan and made up for his weaknesses.



Wut weaknesses?

[Infinite_limit]

People always get this idea that Jordan could do no wrong, and I disagree.

He's a very difficult player to build around, and required a special makeup of a team to win those 6 championships. Look at those two three peat teams, they were pretty much a carbon copy of each other, and it required Phil Jackson, one of the best in stroking egos, to make that work.

We all know Jordan needs someone like a Pippen to win, because he would need another guy who can defend the perimeter and orchestrate the offense, but he also requires a couple of dead eye outside shooters (BJ Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr), a rugged rebounder and interior defender (Grant/Rodman), and a bunch of interchangeable centers who can pass and shoot from 15 (Cartwright, Perdue, Longley). This was an unorthodox lineup, and while none of them are superstar level players (other than Pippen), they all compliment Jordan and made up for his weaknesses.

On the other hand, a player like Bird (82 vs. 86), Magic (80 vs. 87 and 88), and Kareem (71 vs. 85) can all contribute in a different way to a team playing a different role, with a different group of slightly different makeup of a team to win a championship.

It depends what you mean by a better player, but Jordan is not really as good and easy to win a championship with as people make him out to be.
Well that was the formula for a 72-10 team. In terms of the Post, they were extremely bare. It was essentially Rodman (Greatest Rebounder Ever) and Kukoc as the versatile 6 '11' guy. Rodman was really the big domino because without him you have to significantly alter the formula.

In that formula you essentially tell Jordan to focus his energy on taking care of all the scoring inside the perimeter. I mean all of it. It's hard to ignore the clutch factor. You could find other SGs like Mitch Richmond to shoulder the scoring for 3.5 Quarters but in the end of games? Knowing MJ had this taken are of, allowed the Bulls to focus on Defense and play with an extremely thin margin. They didn't humiliate opponents in the same manner as Shaq/Kobe but they were consistently better.

So we are basically debating how does the formula change if you give Jordan a Dwight Howard & Irving. While taking away Rodman & Pippen. Or maybe to better fit the talent disparity, give Jordan a Kidd/Nash and Robinson/Ewing


PG: Irving or Kidd/Nash
SG: Jordan
SF: ?
PF: ?
C: Howard or Robinson/Ewing



Isn't it easier to find quality Forwards than Centers or Point Guards? Which SF & PF would be the equivalent of Luc Longley & Ron Harper

[Killakobe81]

No MJ wasnt perfect and Lebron absolutely had a chance to surpass him. Maybe he is not as easy to build around as a great big but even the great bigs needed good (great) coaches and most of the time (except Dream and Timmy for a season)a HOF #2 and elite perimeter play.

[Cry Havoc]

Malik Hairston (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18403)


And Cry Havoc, are you still mad bout the Enrique truth nukes we dropped upstairs? :lol

Claiming truth nukes about your own post is just an admission that you're a shit-tier level poster with absolutely no hoops knowledge.

[Silver&Black]

As long as Kirby doesn't ring.

[Sean Cagney]

but you said "Pretty good for a SG"

but anyway Jordan was so ball dominant before KFC took over; he was going to get his points, and when the defense collapsed on him, he HAD to pass the ball, so he was going to get his assists to.Yes but on top of all of that he was a winner as well, so it is not like he was a detriment to the team. He got his rings.

BTW he was a SG most of that year he averaged 8 besides 11 games or so, so that would make him a SG.

[Joseph Kony]

Claiming truth nukes about your own post is just an admission that you're a shit-tier level poster with absolutely no hoops knowledge.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzxiyu8Btb1qj3i85.gif






















i had to :lol

[lefty]

Claiming truth nukes about your own post is just an admission that you're a shit-tier level poster with absolutely no hoops knowledge.
Im not the only one who dropped truth nukes upstairs

So no Im not claiming truth nukes about my own posts only


:lol try again

[Cry Havoc]

Im not the only one who dropped truth nukes upstairs

So no Im not claiming truth nukes about my own posts only


:lol try again

You're including them.

:lmao Admitting you're a shit-tier poster by your own standards. :lmao

:lmao Actively rooting against your own players. :lmao

[mkurts]

Now cue the "Kobe is better than MJ" thread

[lefty]

You're including them.

:lmao Admitting you're a shit-tier poster by your own standards. :lmao

:lmao Actively rooting against your own players. :lmao


so little logic in this shitty post from a shitty poster who cant handle truth nukes:lmao

[Venti Quattro]

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-22318-Michael-Jordan-ball-fake-gif-SvYu.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qyhKL0kndbA/T4YVlmIi3hI/AAAAAAAAA_c/DSe6cXIL3nE/s1600/David+Wesley+2.jpg

[lefty]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qyhKL0kndbA/T4YVlmIi3hI/AAAAAAAAA_c/DSe6cXIL3nE/s1600/David+Wesley+2.jpg

Bobby Phills killer got fat

[ambchang]

Wut weaknesses?

You really think Jordan doesn't have any weaknesses? He really is getting overrated now.

Ball dominance, focused on winning individual matchups, freezing out teammates.

During the first three peat, he didn't have the most reliable jumper, trust issues with teammates.

Jordan was great, but he does have weaknesses.

[ambchang]

Well that was the formula for a 72-10 team. In terms of the Post, they were extremely bare. It was essentially Rodman (Greatest Rebounder Ever) and Kukoc as the versatile 6 '11' guy. Rodman was really the big domino because without him you have to significantly alter the formula.

In that formula you essentially tell Jordan to focus his energy on taking care of all the scoring inside the perimeter. I mean all of it. It's hard to ignore the clutch factor. You could find other SGs like Mitch Richmond to shoulder the scoring for 3.5 Quarters but in the end of games? Knowing MJ had this taken are of, allowed the Bulls to focus on Defense and play with an extremely thin margin. They didn't humiliate opponents in the same manner as Shaq/Kobe but they were consistently better.

So we are basically debating how does the formula change if you give Jordan a Dwight Howard & Irving. While taking away Rodman & Pippen. Or maybe to better fit the talent disparity, give Jordan a Kidd/Nash and Robinson/Ewing


PG: Irving or Kidd/Nash
SG: Jordan
SF: ?
PF: ?
C: Howard or Robinson/Ewing



Isn't it easier to find quality Forwards than Centers or Point Guards? Which SF & PF would be the equivalent of Luc Longley & Ron Harper

Nash, Kidd or any other great pg will not flourish next to Jordan. They all need the ball in their hands.

[Cry Havoc]

so little logic in this shitty post from a shitty poster who cant handle truth nukes:lmao

Self-declaration of truth nukes = terrible poster. :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[lefty]

Self-declaration of truth nukes = terrible poster. :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Again Im not the only one who dropped them

Can't read :rollin

[Cry Havoc]

Again Im not the only one who dropped them

Can't read :rollin

Parker saving our ass while you cry into a beer. :lmao

[lefty]

Parker saving our ass while you cry into a beer. :lmao

:lmao regular season parker

[Blake]

You really think Jordan doesn't have any weaknesses? He really is getting overrated now.

Ball dominance, focused on winning individual matchups, freezing out teammates.

During the first three peat, he didn't have the most reliable jumper, trust issues with teammates.

Jordan was great, but he does have weaknesses.

I didn't say he didn't. But you're nit picking.

[ambchang]

I didn't say he didn't. But you're nit picking.

That's not nitpicking, that's real.

That's why he didn't win previously. Jordan can't play with another dominant pg or with a volume scoring center. He takes up huge areas on offense and is ball dominant. Any of those players playing with him will be less effective and will have to reduce their roles.

[Blake]

That's not nitpicking, that's real.

That's why he didn't win previously. Jordan can't play with another dominant pg or with a volume scoring center. He takes up huge areas on offense and is ball dominant. Any of those players playing with him will be less effective and will have to reduce their roles.

Neat. Name one player ever that didn't have a weakness.

[ambchang]

Neat. Name one player ever that didn't have a weakness.

None. That's my point.

[Blake]

None. That's my point.

Well I don't know anyone who seriously thinks MJ has no weakness.

But if you're winning multiple MVPs, multiple championships and multiple scoring titles, then coming up with ":cry he didn't play well with others :cry" you're really picking at nits

[lefty]

He didnt play well with others


FFS, Bill Cartwright almost broke his legs :lol

[Blake]

He didnt play well with others


so you're saying being an alpha is a weakness?

[Clipper Nation]

so you're saying being an alpha is a weakness?

Duncan is an amazing teammate, does that make him less of an alpha?

[Blake]

Duncan is an amazing teammate, does that make him less of an alpha?

Less of an alpha than MJ? yes, but who isn't?

Shit, MJ was most alpha on a team full of alphas on the dream team

[ambchang]

Well I don't know anyone who seriously thinks MJ has no weakness.

But if you're winning multiple MVPs, multiple championships and multiple scoring titles, then coming up with ":cry he didn't play well with others :cry" you're really picking at nits

His ball dominance was one of the reasons he required a highly unorthodox team around him. The players with those skill sets weren't overly difficult to find, but it has to be a comparatively similar formula.

[Malik Hairston]

:lmao Dad Killer, can't even build a team that can beat this year's Lakers :lmao..

[Blake]

His ball dominance was one of the reasons he required a highly unorthodox team around him. The players with those skill sets weren't overly difficult to find, but it has to be a comparatively similar formula.

So what you're saying is that Jordan won all those championships with players whose skill sets weren't difficult to find?

Whoa what a weakling.

why are you trying so hard to dog MJ?

[ambchang]

So what you're saying is that Jordan won all those championships with players whose skill sets weren't difficult to find?

Whoa what a weakling.

why are you trying so hard to dog MJ?

Still didn't change that he required a very specific skill set of players to play around him.

Bird, Magic and Duncan all won with a more diverse group of players around him.

Where am I dogging MJ? I am not agreeing that he is the greatest of the greatest and has no peers.

I am not even dogging MJ.

[Blake]

People always get this idea that Jordan could do no wrong, and I disagree.

He's a very difficult player to build around

:cry "I'm not dogging him. I'm just saying he's difficult to build around and he's not a nice teammate. And he's got weaknesses :cry :cry :cry

[Blake]

Still didn't change that he required a very specific skill set of players to play around him.

Bird, Magic and Duncan all won with a more diverse group of players around him.


Yeah, MJ needed a PG, PF, C and SF to play next to him.

MJ's weak like that.

[lefty]

Still didn't change that he required a very specific skill set of players to play around him.

Bird, Magic and Duncan all won with a more diverse group of players around him.

Where am I dogging MJ? I am not agreeing that he is the greatest of the greatest and has no peers.

I am not even dogging MJ.
http://media.giphy.com/media/ZdwC0AKiijCzC/giphy.gif

[lefty]

Yeah, MJ needed a PG, PF, C and SF to play next to him.

MJ's weak like that.
- MJ wouldnt have succeeded if he shared the backourt with a traditional PG
- MJ needed a versatile wingman like Scottie, on the offensive end, Pippen was the one who made his teammates better; on the defensive end, Pippen was the one guarding the opponents best perimeter players, not Mike who was overrated as a defensive player
- MJ couldnt have played with an All-Star center; it wouldnt have worked
- MJ needed defensive rebounding PF's


Duncan won with all star centers (Robinson) and shitty centers

He won with spot up shooters, but also with guards/forwards who can create their own shots

He won with a pass first PG (Avery) and a ballhog PG (Enrique)

[ambchang]

:cry "I'm not dogging him. I'm just saying he's difficult to build around and he's not a nice teammate. And he's got weaknesses :cry :cry :cry

That's not dogging him, that's looking at all the teams Jordan played on and coming to a conclusion.

Jordan had to tone down his game and allowed other players (Pippen, Grant) to shine for his first couple of championships. Before that, he was getting eliminated by Boston and the Pistons while scoring in record breaking fashion, and putting up historical stats.

Pippen and Jackson obviously were keys, but players like Grant, Cartwright, and Paxson often times do not get the credit they deserved.


Yeah, MJ needed a PG, PF, C and SF to play next to him.

MJ's weak like that.

He required specific types of each position to play next to him. It really is no coincidence that Jordan is the only alpha SG in NBA history who ever won it all without a dominant big, and the reason is simply the game is built to benefit big guys. Centers (Mikan, Wilt, Russell, Jabbar) have always helped teams win, and even with the rule changes in the league the last few years, there really hasn't been any alpha shooting guards who won it all without a dominant big (Wade came the closest, I suppose).

Pointing that out isn't dogging him, it's talking about the realities of the game. So if I were to build a team from scratch, with no assurances that I can get a Pippen and or a Jackson, I will go with players like Magic, Jabbar, Bird, or even Duncan, knowing full well that I have a better chance to get the other pieces easier than those required around Jordan.

[Blake]

You've got nothing tangible to back any of that tldr stuff.

If you want to keep nitpicking, go for it. :tu

[ambchang]

You've got nothing tangible to back any of that tldr stuff.

If you want to keep nitpicking, go for it. :tu

You probably didn't read the back up stuff because of you ADHD.